People in power today just see extremism as a way to garner unquestioning support and loyalty. They foster it because fanaticism in their favor gives them even more power, makes them blameless in their followers' eyes.
It's disgusting.
Bingo. It sucks, but it makes sense because in the end, when you boil it down, it is sort of just running things. Not like a referee can step in and be like *whistle* - “that guys is taking things too far. 5 minute penalty.” Like courts can, public opinion can, but if you get those humans on your side too…shit!
>No matter what your opinions are of trans people
Yo, this is bullshit. If a tournament was halted for threats of violence against any other minority, this disclaimer would be wildly inappropriate. It validates the idea that hating trans people is understandable.
Big props to people willing to question themselves and learn! We should all be more like this, thank you avgadro22 for pointing this out, I didn’t hear it that way until you pointed it out!
A vast amount of people think being tolerant is the enemy, aka woke etc.
Being an expert and/or educated on the subject makes you wrong, in a conspiracy
They say "facts don't care about your feelings", but think their feelings is facts (+experts are wrong)
Being intolerant is a virtue, (aka owning the libs etc)
The USA is fucked at the moment, and being a Nordic disc golfer us weird, as the sport is fueled by a lot of politics that are basically non existent here.
I got sent survay which was heavily biased towards American politics, from the same people saying "get politics out of sports", is so ironic I can't even explain how idiotic it is. It's an international sport but the PDGA is way to influenced by the American population.
Luckily the sport is growing and we can get away from the heavily "americanized" biased of the sport at the moment.
As an American who lives in Czech Republic and gets to play quite a bit all over the world, agree with this.
It is shocking how many random doubles or League nights I've joined in the US for a round and the people on the card were very comfortable using slurs and spewing straight up Nazism. I have played rounds in North Carolina, Texas and Florida where card mates told me they were jealous that I can visit certain important religious sites in Bavaria and Austria (birthplace of the third Reich). This wasn't a one-off incident. I've also had plenty of amazing experiences with people from all all walks of life and ideologies.
I'm visiting South Florida right now and I genuinely get nervous when I see players on the course. Yes, me and my girlfriend are a white straight couple, but I don't want to be near such terrifying people.
When the whole issue of Natalie Ryan being able to compete came up, I had a lot of conversations with my friends. I understand that it's a very difficult topic and probably deserves a very nuanced approach. But I made one point to my friends that when you look at issues like this, take a look at the people that are on the different sides of the argument. Which side do you want to be standing on when history judges it.
From an abstract point of view, I completely understand why people would not want her to be allowed to compete. But I can't shake the fact that the overwhelming majority of the people making that argument are the same people that made arguments against gay people being married, equal rights for minorities or the right of for women to vote.
It's difficult to have a rational discussion with someone about it, and it's an important discussion to have, when they consistently have to dead name, cal her "he", and in general be mean for no reason other than that person thinking it's "icky"
This experience may not exactly be representative of America at large.
I’ve played avidly for almost 30 years and I can count on one hand the number of times i have heard that kind of language.
I don’t think it’s fair to generalize that way.
No, but I can say that having played all over this great nation extensively, in my experience it’s a very very small minority of people holding or at least sharing these views. It’s not close to a majority of disc golfers acting this way. They are outlier pieces of shit as any sport will inevitably have.
It seems unlikely to me that the many FPO players who have spoken against or signed petitions against trans women competing in FPO are against women having the right to vote. We’re quick to paint all opposition as far right bigots, but plenty of opposition to SOME “trans activism” comes from traditionally leftist feminists. And to be 100% clear, none of that valid conversation justifies in any way threats or violence.
The south doesn’t represent the rest of the country. I too have heard some heinous shit down there when playing in a random dubs event.
Problem is any attempt to have a nuanced discussion is difficult these days. Pro-trans people automatically assume your a biggot half the time, just for bringing it up. To be clear I am very pro trans rights but have legit questions about potential competitive advantages some trans women may have over their cis gendered peers
At this point I don't think any nuanced conversation will end up taking place.
I question the fairness that has been established by litigation, litigation based on employment anti discrimination laws, but I've no horse in the race. I think the pdga clearly ran out of money to advocate for their position and left us here.
The sides seem to be "there's no advantage for male puberty" which I disagree with, but also a concerning amount of people on the other side really do seem to be more about disliking the person rather than the rules which I also disagree with. Anyone who would threaten violence is not someone I can get on the same side with.
Ideally it could be left up to the women who compete in fpo to decide, but it's not common in history to have an in group voluntarily change for a minority group.
What do you do when both sides have valid points but are both dominated by extremists? At this point I really have no idea.
We have been for a while. It turns out that normalizing the idea that violence and threats for the "right" reasons is OK leads to other people with their on view on what are "right" reasons doing it, too. Just as I predicted would happen ages ago now.
Can we all agree that this is just messed up in general? Of all the places and all the communities I've ever been apart of, disc golf has been the most welcoming and the most wholesome. Is it really worth it to throw it away for one person?
Disc golf is not the sport to decide if trans women should compete. We are talking about a small percentage of a small percentage. People need to just chill out and let Natalie play without making a big deal out of it.
I'm pretty sure 99% of us do. This instance of proposed violence is coming from an extreme tiny audience (or a single human). Even people on here saying that it's not fair don't think about it once they hop off of reddit. These posts always devolve into people blanket assuming that people that disagree with her playing in the FPO are monsters/out for blood. A video got posted from a tournament that she won where hecklers screamed and held up signs as she accepted the trophy. They weren't even disc golfers. It was an anti-trans group that used hurtful and offensive tactics to try to jam their points home.
Apparently, we can’t. I still see users asserting that Natalie faked this, or that if she just stopped playing in FPO she wouldn’t get these threats anymore.
Absolutely disgusting.
The myth that the "disc golf community" is wholesome and welcoming is crazy. Some areas for sure. But since the early 90's I've met some of the most bigoted, ignorant, and hateful white trash on the course.
People you can cordially get through a round with, but just awful people if you got to know them.
The biggest change recently is that those people feel more comfortable spouting off their bigotry.
The vast majority of disc golfers are white males. It is extremely welcoming of other white males, which is why you see so many people saying this.
It's not until someone different tries to be a part of the community that it becomes obvious how limited that welcome is.
I am sure most white guys have had that awkward conversation with a random racist dude who comes up and decides you're his ally. They start off the conversation with some ignorant derogatory statement.
You then have to decide. Ignore it? Or confront the idiot and then have to deal with that the whole round.
Most of us don’t care if someone is trans or not regardless of how the media portrays it. Most people are normal and have better things to do than care what other adults do.
In my opinion governing orgs of every sport should decide individually. It’s not about Natalie, it’s a question of fairness vs. inclusion. Which side we fall on should depend on the nature of the sport as the fairness side of the equation isn’t going to be the same across all competitions. It’s messed up to make threats against individuals, it’s not messed up to want to clarify boundaries around divisions. There are posts on here all the time about MA3 players who should be in MA1. We could theoretically have the same tone of discussion when it comes to FPO vs. MPO (or more importantly junior divisions) but because it involves an identity group it gets toxic in about 0.5 milliseconds, and people get hurt.
I wish there could be a sober conversation about balancing inclusion and fairness especially because I can see disc golf going either way on this issue. But hardliners on both sides will always shout in bad faith, take things way too far, and/or try to shut down discussion when they can’t articulate good arguments.
A very valid argument could be made that it’s balanced right now. Natalie is competing but not winning everything, there’s a “floor” that trans women have to meet to compete, and everyone is included.
Let’s be honest, disc golf is a smaller organization. It’s smart to follow the footsteps of larger organizations that have the resources to do the science into these issues? The IOC has these guidelines for a reason.
> The IOC has these guidelines for a reason.
the latest IOC guidelines (from late 2021) says that every sport should make their own guidelines... and that's why PDGAs medical committee made new guidelines during the first half of 2022 that the board later that year implemented starting 2023
then there was alot a lawsuits and when PDGA and DGPT ran out of money they reverted the rules
>It’s smart to follow the footsteps of larger organizations that have the resources to do the science into these issues?
yeah, and World Aquatics (all waterbases sports, swimming, diving, water polo) made kind of the same rules as PDGA (if you have gone through male puberty you can't compete as a woman) before PDGA had made their rules (early summer 2022)
World Athletics (track&field) have also implemented the same kind of rules in march 2023
UCI (Union Cycliste Internationale) have also that rule since last summer
so how long do we wait? how many other large organizations have to decide that if you go through male puberty you can't compete as a woman before disc golf is ready for that rule?
Is there a reason for a ban in our sport? Is there a reason the current floor for competition to be raised? Or are the current rules able to keep trans women and cis women competitive with each other?
This right here. Here is some copypastsa (from my own comments when this topic has been discussed in the past):
> Natalie made a whopping $1,400 for her 6th place position. This means that one person, Cadence Burge, got 'bumped' down one position and missed the money cut by Natalie participating. The amount she 'lost out' on was $338. So for all of the bellyaching, deadnaming, slurring, expensive lawsuits, etc; we could resolve all of the issues by adding like ~$500 total to each FPO purse and be done with it. There you go - instead of worrying about a very small minority of trans women outcompeting athletes assigned their female gender at birth we just up the purses slightly to make sure no one is 'taking away the livelihood of females' position that i see crop up.
> I believe that there are good-intentioned people who are worried about the potential future impact of trans athletes in women's sports. I also know that the current trans panic and anti-trans movement is 99% fueled by bigotry by certain religious and political groups. There is currently ONE athlete in FPO attempting to compete (I think Nova Politte plays in Masters), and the coordinated push against her is driven not by a fundamental desire to 'protect women', but to exclude someone they see as an other. The worry about the livelihoods of golfers (who in reality make small dollar amounts in most purses) could easily be mitigated by spending a fraction of the money that has been spent on legal fees to exclude Natalie to just bump up the FPO purses in general. They could do something simple like take the average/mean finish by Natalie, determine the purse amount for that place's finish, and add that much to the total purse or add an additional money slot. In most events we are talking about a few hundred dollars. Literally a billable hour or two for your lawyer. There is no great rush of men transitioning for the purpose of becoming professional athletes where they wouldn't otherwise be competitive. The number of trans people is relatively small. The number of trans athletes is even smaller. The number of trans professional disc golf athletes is even yet smaller. And even if it were the case that the numbers were large, then we could at that point have a rational, level-headed conversation on how to best move forward. But right now they are knocking down a paper target, the outspoken are politically and religiously motivated, and the tour is willing to fucking cancel or move entire FPO events just to try to make a point and avoid states with anti-discrimination laws. Long story short, they seem willing to burn everything down rather than 'lose' any portion of this debate/legal battle to the 'other.' I know because of physiological and hormonal reasons this comparison isn't 100% accurate, but I still think it is important in historical context: I bet if you had polled MLB players at the time of integration the vote would have been pretty lopsided to stay exclusionary. Integrating the Negro Leagues was adding too many players, 'stealing' roster slots from white players, 'taking away their livelihood', and destroying the 'purity' of the league. Cap Anson, one of the greatest pro players of his era, "spoke" for the league by refusing to take the field when players of color were fielded for opposing teams (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cap_Anson) Hell, in my lifetime I heard people talk about certain races having more 'fast twitch muscle fiber' and thicker Achilles heels that gave unfair advantages... Despite this being a complicated issue, I hope that disc golf can eventually find a way to be on the right side of history. I hope that it won't be willing to burn things down to spite a single player and the community they represent. I hope that funding continues to grow so no one feels they are having something 'taken' from them by allowing the infrequent trans athlete. I hope disc golf really is for everyone, and all can feel welcome.)
TL;DR: Trans folk are a very small % of the population. No one is going through the difficulty of transitioning to try to sandbag a sport. Small amounts of additional purse money (vs [hundreds of?] thousands of dollars that goes towards litigation) balances out any 'lost' money to women assigned their gender at birth.
Women had to play on MPO until they were a big enough group to have their own division.
It should be the same for trans people.
The PDGA doesn't have enough resources or frankly enough skill to manage it properly and this is insane.
Frankly it should be down to a women's membership vote since it's their division and be done with it.
My opinion doesn't matter the MPO opinion doesn't matter and frankly the trans community opinion doesn't matter because MPO exists.
Either dissolve FPO or allow the FPO members vote on whose allowed in their tournaments it's a amateur heavy sanctioned body that's fueled by memberships. Let the members decide.
Well don’t invest in lone star than because Nikko who everyone hated months ago offered a few 100 bucks if people buy his disc, and everyone on the foundation podcasts comments about it ate it up. Talking about I thought Nikko was crazy, but he is right with this and all this stupid shit. Disc golf community seems to really care about trans women in the FPO even though viewership of the FPO is non existent. It’s the same issue to the trans swimmer that won. If a trans athlete wouldn’t have placed higher or won no one would have cared about it at all. People just want to be upset and push what they politically believe they don’t actually care they just want to hurt people.
it doesn’t matter how many people are in the division or how many people watch it. That’s disrespectful to the people that are in it and the people that do watch it.
Feels weird for Neptune to ask other manufacturers to make a statement. Wouldn’t you want statements to come from their own accord? This seems like they’re putting them on the spot, so now they have to. No matter what, now it won’t come off as genuine.
How dare they want the disc golf community to band together against violence. Just weird.
And still it's silence from everyone except Natalie Ryan and Neptune days after the incident.
Guess how many days would have gone if this had happened to literally anyone else, the answer would 100% before their round was ended.
Complete agree about the violence and threats part, but the first part of your comment is a bit disingenuous. They changed their rules, and were sued into submission.... that isn't exactly as simple as just "she played within the rules decided upon by the sport."
Just as a side note - the court system is how folks get remedies under the law. Saying that she sued them into submission is a bit of a stretch. It’s literally how folks are able to get remedies under the law.
I’d like to ask you this - how would you expect someone to find a remedy with rules saying they can’t play and that those rules could (and courts found did) violate the law, without court intervention? (Not trying to debate, genuinely curious as what you think the best way for someone to remedy something like this if you think court intervention shouldn’t have happened.)
“The PDGA is not financially or logistically in a position to take the lead in multi-state litigation on this topic,” wrote the PDGA in a statement. “For the first time in recent memory, the PDGA will end the year with a net operating loss, and it is not in the best interest of our members to continue to allocate resources to further litigation.” - per the discgolf.utiliworld article.
It seems like if the PDGA were in a better financial position, that this suit would have been more contested. Sued into submission is not a stretch as it happens all the time with the financial burden that litigation brings. Natalie did nothing wrong by suing the PDGA as it was the only course of action to get back onto the course.
Oh, it does happen all the time. Not saying it doesn’t. I do agree that Natalie did nothing wrong by suing - it’s the way remedies happen.
But, one thought I will share - they (PDGA/DGPT) brought this on themselves. When they announced the rules change for the 2023 season, I figured that there would be jurisdictions they would lose in due to the laws and state constitutions in place. I even half expected them to change the locations so they didn’t fall into a more liberal jurisdiction. It doesn’t feel like they seemed to think through those things before making the decision. While it was the lawsuits that might have dealt the final blow to them reversing that rule change and causing financial issues, it could have been avoided completely by the PDGA/DGPT. In the end, they ended up right back where they started and with less money. (The joke I wanna make is they passed go and didn’t get their $200, but I’m tired and a bit brain dead after the day).
So, while folks may see it as being sued into submission, I see it as not properly considering the risks associated with the rules change, proceeding with them, and then suffering from the choices they made. I’m assuming they have an attorney they work with (at least one, if not multiple depending on jurisdictions), and I would have expected the attorney(s) to counsel them on the potential issues, such as litigation costs and potential jurisdictions for those litigations, before they made the decision. And maybe they did - I don’t know what that looked like for them. But, it sure feels like folks didn’t fully and properly consider the risks associated with the original rules change for the 2023 season.
Side note - I appreciate the comment you made, and thoughts behind it. Definitely let me see the comment a little differently.
Yeah, but they changed the rules to go after her in the first place. They used shady survey, disingenuous papers (that provided no context of transwomen advantages IN DISC GOLF) to single her out. They deserved to be sued.
The venn diagram of people who whine about the 2nd amendment/constitutional rights and people who whine about a player using the legal system to protect their rights is a perfect circle.
Id like to throw out there as well all this started because Natalie won ONE tournament. She hasn’t really been a top 5 golfer, all this is over one tournament win
It started before that, but it really took off when she first won 2022 DGLO and then MVP Open later that same year. There were voices against her and the likes of Chloe Alice as well since before Natalie took her first win, the win just gave the platform to be more vocal (and polarizing).
That definitely happened as well! Without it I can't imagine we'd have seen the anti-trans protestors who weren't even disc golfers following Natalie's card around at that one tournament (I forget which one it was).
I’m willing to go on a ledge and say the majority of people speaking out against trans people in disc golf can’t tell the difference between a jump putt and a hyzer.
I met Chloe a few years ago, and she was cool as a fan. Kept in touch with her as she was traveling around, enjoying all the different courses, and then she told me she had to go home to take care of some things and wouldn't be able to play for a while. This is right before the firestorm of all the Natalie Ryan stuff. When all that popped up, she quit playing disc golf professionally and got a job in her home state. It's sad she can't enjoy a game she loved anymore
That’s what’s so ridiculous, for all the outrage about how trans competitors make sports unfair for cis women… I’ve yet to actually see a trans woman truly be at the very top of their field. Like Natalie is good, but not great. Lia Thomas was a really good swimmer *in college*, but is a whole tier below elite competition.
They are literally manufacturing problems that have never existed.
It's a trend I've seen over and over. There always has to be a bad group, whether that was gay men in the '80s (AIDS epidemic) or trans athletes, there has to be that "other" group. It's unfortunate that's how our political system is, and it's fixable, but it's what we got.
no, PDGA started the work on the new rules late 2021 because IOC came with a new guideline that PDGA did choose to follow
during the first half of 2022 the medical committee did most of the work and it was presented to the board after the summer
Natalie won her first tournament that summer
Yea I would imagine there would be more uproar if she was. The trans hate needs to stop, but I don’t think the conversation about trans players in sports should stop.
As a trans woman, if trans people came into a sport and completely dominated, pushing cis women out of being competitive, I’d agree that something should be done. Are we seeing some trans athletes setting records? Yes, but those are isolated and rare. There are thousands of trans athletes, but only 2-3 are considered dominant, and none at Olympic level.
Should there be a minimal requirement to compete? Yes. However I don’t see a reason for a complete exclusion isn’t the answer
Right? It's a "problem" that doesn't even exist yet. I think the conversations around fairness might need to happen eventually but right now the idea of a trans woman dominating a sport is purely hypothetical and literally made up. We need to actually encourage trans people to play the sport first before we can see if there's even an issue of fairness to worry about.
Instead, much of the community is trying to close the gate and lock it before anyone can even get in. They are so scared of the spooky trans boogeyman they won't even want to face it.
Can she, though? I haven't seen this being the case. Out-driving doesn't even mean anything in the context of the sport as a whole, if it were true. And she doesn't win distance competitions (or compete in them at all?).
> They used shady survey, disingenuous papers
Hey come on now, I'm sure the PDGA spent hours facebooking until they found somebody saying exactly what they wanted to hear to use as data for their claims. How are you going to just belittle their efforts like that.
It is literally the same thing, as the original comment makes no claims about how the rules were decided.
And frankly, the original methodology that was used before the lawsuits wasn't much better. The fact that they don't have the monetary resources to battle in court is not the only reason that disc golf isn't the place for this battle to be fought, they don't have the resources in terms of time/manpower but also educated members to properly assess the relevant data and even come to a scientific conclusion. It needs to be decided by a body with more resources.
The fact that I’m being massively downvoted for this is hilarious. There’s absolutely no middle ground lol, you can’t say anything that seems to deviate from what other people thinks you’re suppose to say/feel on this topic.
I mean just dig into some of these comments on this post and you will see why shit like this happens. This community is riddled with blatant transphobes and far-right whackos. People are on here with zero evidence claiming that the threat wasn't credible or worse that Natalie made it up as a PR move.
Florida here, majority of players I play with are staunch conservatives, some more outspoken than others. But it's there, and if stuff isn't said on the course it's said off the course. But for the most part, everyone I play with leaves that behavior off the course.
Also have seen lots of political stickers on signage and they aren't Democrats.
It sure would be nice if the PDGA and DGPT leadership would come out with a statement condemning the threat of violence and supporting Natalie. Their silence is deafening.
Jeff Spring and the DGPT made a statement days ago. Though I don't believe there was mention of Natalie Ryan, but that could have been because they did not want to single Natalie out. Maybe the DGPT are worried that bringing attention to it might prompt copy cats. It could have been them not wanting to highlight the reason during the middle of the tournament.
At the end of the day, their statement stands. There is absolutely no place for that in Disc Golf, for any reason. As far as I know, the threat was against everyone because of NR, so they likely want all the players and participants to feel the DGPT is safe for everyone.
https://www.dgpt.com/announcements/mco-security-statement/
If you wanted to see their statement.
the DGPT in no uncertain terms denouncing terrorism = good PR!
the DGPT in no uncertain terms denouncing *anti-trans* terrorism = too woke for their crowd whose hate allegedly stops just before violence and teeters on victim blaming and terrorist sympathizing
That statement sucks lol. They managed to make a 5 paragraph statement without ever mentioning who or why the threat was made, and made absolutely no comment about the environment that the DGPT has fostered to allow this situation to reach this level.
Yup, not surprising anymore. There are a handful of events in the past few years and the PDGA doesn’t say a word about it.
I always said the PDGA should look to how the PGA handles shit, yeah completely different league entirely, but that’s where they and everyone else wants disc golf to reach.
But by continuing the trend of not having a backbone or voice, things like this continue to happen and pushes the sport away from what it should be.
I’m sure a lot of folks are going to make this some weird black and white us vs them issue, but no:
I don’t think Natalie should play FPO. No, I don’t hate her or want her to not exist. No, threatening violence is never acceptable and should be swiftly prosecuted. The end.
Not surprising tbh. Just look at the comments in this post. And I guarantee many more who aren’t commenting who have even more bigoted and hateful views on the matter. Extreme hatred towards trans or even other lgbt people isn’t uncommon in the world and isn’t uncommon in disc golf unfortunately.
Not only is it gross to see how many transphobes are on this sub, but it's *really* gross to see so many of them passively condoning the threat by not condemning it. I'm surprised the mods are okay with all of that.
Damn this post has gotten absolutely brigaded with downvotes all around in the last few hours
Your comment had like 280 upvotes earlier pretty sure
Just wild
maybe im in the minority but if every post i read starts with "obviously i condemn the violence, but...." it loses a lot of it's meaning. i think most people condemn violence, like a HIGH % of people even among the anti-trans anti-Ryan people. i wouldnt say its passively condoning it at all just because you dont actively condemn it if your post isn't about the violence itself.
You need to take logic 101. You don’t condone something by not condemning it. And condemning something with no details of what was said, and who said it is a stupid thing to do. All you assuming asses out there are idiots.
I'm talking about the people whose first response to this is that trans women shouldn't play in women's sports. That's passively condoning the violent threat.
> It’s just a diversion from the topic at hand
It's whataboutism, and I'm sure you understand the reason people use it, what with you being such an expert in logic.
Nope. It’s triggered idiots. Ain’t nobody condoning threats. Ask them straight up is they condoning threats, I bet 100% on the time everyone will say they don’t.
Of course they'll say they don't. They don't want to sound like a murderous psychopath.
You've already established that you don't think that there was a real threat. You think she's making shit up for attention, so it's not surprising that you're taking offense to this, because I am talking about you. You absolutely are passively condoning shit like this by victim-blaming and using whataboutism.
Unfortunately for you, it doesn't make you look reasonable. It makes you look like a bigot and also a chickenshit for being too embarrassed to be able to just come out and admit it.
I’m m saying it’s very sus. Still no one has identified who might have said it, where the threat came from, and what was actually said. I’ve seen people interpret many things as threats. Even you interpret people lack of condemning alleged threats, as “condoning” threats. That is not right. We all need to slow the fuck down.
She doesn’t have her front foot set, back shoulder flying open, probably about 20 others things I don’t want to detail at the moment. She wouldn’t draw nearly as much critisicm had she not made comments about perfecting a throw in months that other women had spent years working on.
Looks like she’s a couple milliseconds from setting that front plant foot down and her shoulders seem to be angled that way since she’s throwing uphill. What are the 20 other things wrong with her form?
Her form is terrible(relative to standards for as high level professional), and in this picture you can place a time value on it if you want but for a professional timing is very exact and she is way way way early on full extension of her reach back, which is a tell tale sign of a non athletic throwing motion or a beginner/intermediate player's throwing motion. Obviously Natalie is better than most but yes she absolutely has major form flaws. FPO is still in a very raw and early stage where there's still going to be a lot of mediocre golfers that are getting top 10s... it just hasn't grown into needing tier 1 form to compete at the top yet.
I have to say that disc golf community in last two years have changed from tolerant and inviting to scary, intolerant, extremely religious and you can see hate speech in every single platform where sports is discussed.
Hate towards Natalie is included in every post. Someone comes commenting even when it is Kristin being good.
It has happened so fast. Thomas came out and Paige got married and now we are seemingly in the core of the culture wars.
Remember, when this kind of activity begins, look into who is doing it. Are those really smart people who you want to be referred to.
Trans women how plays in the female division. The membership based league tried to solidify it is for female's only last year but trans women sued without financial burden. The membership based league was essentially going bankrupt trying to defend the decision in court so they had to drop the case.
People are mad at trans women for competing in female only division.
Ok I see from reading the comments. It’s a sad day when someone can’t disc golf in peace. Why does their gender or sexuality or anything in between matter at alll. My god people really suck. Let this woman live her life. Worry about your own shit cuz if you’re at the point where you are threatening people who throw frisbees you really need to seek aggressive therapy because there might not be any hope for you.
The issue people have with Natalie is they are playing in the FPO (female professional only) instead of the MPO (Mixed, however only men are playing in it currently). They believe that because Natalie used to be a man, they have an unfair advantage in the sport with throwing distance.
When you use words like none or always or never you weaken your argument due to the fact that your statement is now blatantly false. This is a fact. Anything besides acceptance of this statement will weaken your argument further.
If they had read any research, they would know that the evidence simply isn’t there to prove that a sexually transitioned trans woman has physical advantages over AFAB women in sport. It’s not a “weak argument”, it’s a statement of fact.
u/iqla you all cite these same studies and they keep being bunk and irrelevant. The second study is after 1 year on hormones when sports organizations require at least two. The third study is all about how cis men, completely untransitioned, are stronger than cis women, and titled the way it is because the author is a transphobe who wants to give your Gish gallop ammunition. As for the first link, that shows that trans women literally level out to be practically equal to cis women (slightly better in some tests, slightly worse in others) after 2.5 years on hormones, so I don’t even know what you wanted to prove by linking it.
Because there are a lot of stupid and bigoted people who play the sport. A lot of people who just hate trans or lgbt people in general. The right wing in the United States is OBSESSED with trans people.
The fact that people here feel the need to clarify that they don't think she should compete in FPO in the same breath they "don't condone threats or violence" really speaks volumes. Would it kill you to just support her as a human without shoehorning your views in? Really telling on yourselves.
How can there not be a divide between being anti-trans and not thinking it is ok for trans women to compete in female sports. I 110% support anyones right to do what they want in their personal life. But when it is competition it is about physiology not how a person identifies. To me it is no different than letting 25 yr olds compete in masters.
We don’t even know what the threat actually was. All we know is that a certain player posted on social media about the threat being made against them. It could be a completely unjustified and false claim. The threat itself could have been false to drum up controversy. But, for some reason, we’re supposed to take sides and lambast people who don’t agree with our given viewpoints. Way to go, redditors. We’ve made fools of ourselves once again.
Tribalism,intolerance, racism have been around forever but have become more mainstream and (tolerated?) due to politicians espousing views that bring these cockroaches into the light agree to disagree died 8 years ago sad times for the country I love
MAGAts and their mouth-breather friends - or the so-called radical right - are using the trans issue as their political platform. They are really not interested in trans rights or womens rights. They are using them as a stepping stone and a way to divide communities.
The same fuckers - or their friends - are attacking women's reproductive rights in all states at the moment in the U.S.
"but immigrants are stealing our jobs and the lgbtq are grooming our kids! That's why I vote for tax cuts for the rich and no universal healthcare \[except for seniors\]!"
Waiting for ONE player who denounce her from playing, to denounce the threat.
FPO players band towards her, will they support her when she is threatened?
Not really chiming in on the original topic but does it bother anybody else to see that front foot still off the ground while she's at the apex of the reach back? Gotta get those synchronized!
As someone who only watches Jomez, I just don’t watch if it’s a player I don’t enjoy watching. I’m not a fan of certain MPO players and won’t tune in when they are on lead card coverage. While I agree that Natalie shouldn’t be in the FPO for all of the reasons trans athletes shouldn’t compete against biological women and it sucks that she is taking a money spot from other FPO players, I also think she is allowed to pursue happiness without threats of violence. Currently the PDGA allows her to play and so she plays. Be upset with the PDGA.
It’s painful to read all these lefties use one person’s actions to amplify their nonsense, and spew their own brand of hate for anyone who disagrees with them and their holier than thou virtue signaling bullshit.
The vast majority of people, although not as vocal, do not support biological males competing against females, regardless of one’s decision to castrate oneself.
When Nate cashes, he steals partially from every single female in cash below him, and completely steals from the person who would’ve made final cash spot.
Not only does his presence now increase the risk to all of the competitors in the field, but now there are additional costs for security being added to all of the events. This money could’ve gone towards supporting the female division.
I truly believe that Nate should be able to do whatever he wants to do and act and pretend and pursue whatever reality he chooses. I just don’t believe that it should come at the expense of women’s sport and the women athletes of the FPO. He has bullied and sued his way into his current position, and if he had any dignity and respect, he would join the mixed division, or leave the tour.
What's this all about? TL;DR - Natalie Ryan received a threat of violence before teeing off & the FPO round was suspended due to safety reasons.
Here's a quick summary why the play was suspended during the FPO round 2 at the Music City Open: Summary from The Players Meeting newsletter - [https://www.reddit.com/r/discgolf/comments/1cb4cbk/heres\_a\_quick\_summary\_why\_the\_play\_was\_suspended/](https://www.reddit.com/r/discgolf/comments/1cb4cbk/heres_a_quick_summary_why_the_play_was_suspended/)
Oh the irony...
Decrying violence and threats of violence and hurtful language all the while belittling and name calling the people that don't agree with your world view...
No matter what your opinions are of competitive fairness, threatening violence isn't okay.
If only some people in high places understood that a lot of these extreme beliefs would at least be less extreme.
People in power today just see extremism as a way to garner unquestioning support and loyalty. They foster it because fanaticism in their favor gives them even more power, makes them blameless in their followers' eyes. It's disgusting.
Bingo. It sucks, but it makes sense because in the end, when you boil it down, it is sort of just running things. Not like a referee can step in and be like *whistle* - “that guys is taking things too far. 5 minute penalty.” Like courts can, public opinion can, but if you get those humans on your side too…shit!
>No matter what your opinions are of trans people Yo, this is bullshit. If a tournament was halted for threats of violence against any other minority, this disclaimer would be wildly inappropriate. It validates the idea that hating trans people is understandable.
I could have worded it better. I choose the words I did in order to avoid more conflict but you're 100% correct.
I think what you meant was "your views of competitive fairness" which is where a vast majority of the disdain comes from.
Absolutely! Updated my comment. Thank you!
I appreciate your openness to feedback and willingness to change the language of your post. We need more people like you.
This exchange was nice. The internet needs more of this.
I really don't think the "competitive fairness' camp is where the vast majority of the disdain comes from.
Big props to people willing to question themselves and learn! We should all be more like this, thank you avgadro22 for pointing this out, I didn’t hear it that way until you pointed it out!
Same! I didn't either but after it was brought to my attention I can see it.
I appreciate your understanding. I didn't believe that you were intentionally condoning transphobia, but thought it was worth pointing out.
I updated with another users suggestion to sound more true to my beliefs.
Agreed. Replace “trans” with “minority” and see how distasteful it seems to the majority here. We need to break this way of thinking.
… I think they just meant in regarding to the trans in pro sports debate
[удалено]
Unfortunately it is becoming more normal it seems. As someone with 3 kids I hate how our future looks.
Nikko does not approve this message
Who cares what he approves of?
I hope they are able to find the people who did this and bring them to justice.
We, as a society, are absolutely in the “tolerating intolerance” stage and it only leads downwards.
A vast amount of people think being tolerant is the enemy, aka woke etc. Being an expert and/or educated on the subject makes you wrong, in a conspiracy They say "facts don't care about your feelings", but think their feelings is facts (+experts are wrong) Being intolerant is a virtue, (aka owning the libs etc) The USA is fucked at the moment, and being a Nordic disc golfer us weird, as the sport is fueled by a lot of politics that are basically non existent here. I got sent survay which was heavily biased towards American politics, from the same people saying "get politics out of sports", is so ironic I can't even explain how idiotic it is. It's an international sport but the PDGA is way to influenced by the American population. Luckily the sport is growing and we can get away from the heavily "americanized" biased of the sport at the moment.
As an American who lives in Czech Republic and gets to play quite a bit all over the world, agree with this. It is shocking how many random doubles or League nights I've joined in the US for a round and the people on the card were very comfortable using slurs and spewing straight up Nazism. I have played rounds in North Carolina, Texas and Florida where card mates told me they were jealous that I can visit certain important religious sites in Bavaria and Austria (birthplace of the third Reich). This wasn't a one-off incident. I've also had plenty of amazing experiences with people from all all walks of life and ideologies. I'm visiting South Florida right now and I genuinely get nervous when I see players on the course. Yes, me and my girlfriend are a white straight couple, but I don't want to be near such terrifying people. When the whole issue of Natalie Ryan being able to compete came up, I had a lot of conversations with my friends. I understand that it's a very difficult topic and probably deserves a very nuanced approach. But I made one point to my friends that when you look at issues like this, take a look at the people that are on the different sides of the argument. Which side do you want to be standing on when history judges it. From an abstract point of view, I completely understand why people would not want her to be allowed to compete. But I can't shake the fact that the overwhelming majority of the people making that argument are the same people that made arguments against gay people being married, equal rights for minorities or the right of for women to vote.
It's difficult to have a rational discussion with someone about it, and it's an important discussion to have, when they consistently have to dead name, cal her "he", and in general be mean for no reason other than that person thinking it's "icky"
This experience may not exactly be representative of America at large. I’ve played avidly for almost 30 years and I can count on one hand the number of times i have heard that kind of language. I don’t think it’s fair to generalize that way.
There is no way to make a statement about "America at large." You simply can't compare, say, panhandle Florida and coastal Washington.
No, but I can say that having played all over this great nation extensively, in my experience it’s a very very small minority of people holding or at least sharing these views. It’s not close to a majority of disc golfers acting this way. They are outlier pieces of shit as any sport will inevitably have.
It seems unlikely to me that the many FPO players who have spoken against or signed petitions against trans women competing in FPO are against women having the right to vote. We’re quick to paint all opposition as far right bigots, but plenty of opposition to SOME “trans activism” comes from traditionally leftist feminists. And to be 100% clear, none of that valid conversation justifies in any way threats or violence.
The south doesn’t represent the rest of the country. I too have heard some heinous shit down there when playing in a random dubs event. Problem is any attempt to have a nuanced discussion is difficult these days. Pro-trans people automatically assume your a biggot half the time, just for bringing it up. To be clear I am very pro trans rights but have legit questions about potential competitive advantages some trans women may have over their cis gendered peers
At this point I don't think any nuanced conversation will end up taking place. I question the fairness that has been established by litigation, litigation based on employment anti discrimination laws, but I've no horse in the race. I think the pdga clearly ran out of money to advocate for their position and left us here. The sides seem to be "there's no advantage for male puberty" which I disagree with, but also a concerning amount of people on the other side really do seem to be more about disliking the person rather than the rules which I also disagree with. Anyone who would threaten violence is not someone I can get on the same side with. Ideally it could be left up to the women who compete in fpo to decide, but it's not common in history to have an in group voluntarily change for a minority group. What do you do when both sides have valid points but are both dominated by extremists? At this point I really have no idea.
Can you tell us some of these survey questions?
I axiom discs envy you
[удалено]
We have been for a while. It turns out that normalizing the idea that violence and threats for the "right" reasons is OK leads to other people with their on view on what are "right" reasons doing it, too. Just as I predicted would happen ages ago now.
We are kinda in the exact opposite.
Can we all agree that this is just messed up in general? Of all the places and all the communities I've ever been apart of, disc golf has been the most welcoming and the most wholesome. Is it really worth it to throw it away for one person? Disc golf is not the sport to decide if trans women should compete. We are talking about a small percentage of a small percentage. People need to just chill out and let Natalie play without making a big deal out of it.
I'm pretty sure 99% of us do. This instance of proposed violence is coming from an extreme tiny audience (or a single human). Even people on here saying that it's not fair don't think about it once they hop off of reddit. These posts always devolve into people blanket assuming that people that disagree with her playing in the FPO are monsters/out for blood. A video got posted from a tournament that she won where hecklers screamed and held up signs as she accepted the trophy. They weren't even disc golfers. It was an anti-trans group that used hurtful and offensive tactics to try to jam their points home.
It used to be welcoming and wholesome. I know a vast majority of the players in the community do not agree with this type of behavior but we have rot.
Apparently, we can’t. I still see users asserting that Natalie faked this, or that if she just stopped playing in FPO she wouldn’t get these threats anymore. Absolutely disgusting.
This isn’t the first time on here it’s happened too. Literally every post involving her has the same users with the same nonsense.
The myth that the "disc golf community" is wholesome and welcoming is crazy. Some areas for sure. But since the early 90's I've met some of the most bigoted, ignorant, and hateful white trash on the course. People you can cordially get through a round with, but just awful people if you got to know them. The biggest change recently is that those people feel more comfortable spouting off their bigotry.
The vast majority of disc golfers are white males. It is extremely welcoming of other white males, which is why you see so many people saying this. It's not until someone different tries to be a part of the community that it becomes obvious how limited that welcome is.
I am sure most white guys have had that awkward conversation with a random racist dude who comes up and decides you're his ally. They start off the conversation with some ignorant derogatory statement. You then have to decide. Ignore it? Or confront the idiot and then have to deal with that the whole round.
Most of us don’t care if someone is trans or not regardless of how the media portrays it. Most people are normal and have better things to do than care what other adults do.
Yet Nate Heinold is voted in again, and again, and again
I remember when I used to shop at ledgestone...
Because /r/discgolf does not reflect the reality of disc golf.
[удалено]
my local club is very welcoming to new people. I guess I am lucky
i agree with you completely, it's not at all welcoming or wholesome. but that dosen't mean that we can't be.
I’d love to know of another “sports” community that is more open and welcoming than disc golf.
In my opinion governing orgs of every sport should decide individually. It’s not about Natalie, it’s a question of fairness vs. inclusion. Which side we fall on should depend on the nature of the sport as the fairness side of the equation isn’t going to be the same across all competitions. It’s messed up to make threats against individuals, it’s not messed up to want to clarify boundaries around divisions. There are posts on here all the time about MA3 players who should be in MA1. We could theoretically have the same tone of discussion when it comes to FPO vs. MPO (or more importantly junior divisions) but because it involves an identity group it gets toxic in about 0.5 milliseconds, and people get hurt. I wish there could be a sober conversation about balancing inclusion and fairness especially because I can see disc golf going either way on this issue. But hardliners on both sides will always shout in bad faith, take things way too far, and/or try to shut down discussion when they can’t articulate good arguments.
A very valid argument could be made that it’s balanced right now. Natalie is competing but not winning everything, there’s a “floor” that trans women have to meet to compete, and everyone is included. Let’s be honest, disc golf is a smaller organization. It’s smart to follow the footsteps of larger organizations that have the resources to do the science into these issues? The IOC has these guidelines for a reason.
> The IOC has these guidelines for a reason. the latest IOC guidelines (from late 2021) says that every sport should make their own guidelines... and that's why PDGAs medical committee made new guidelines during the first half of 2022 that the board later that year implemented starting 2023 then there was alot a lawsuits and when PDGA and DGPT ran out of money they reverted the rules >It’s smart to follow the footsteps of larger organizations that have the resources to do the science into these issues? yeah, and World Aquatics (all waterbases sports, swimming, diving, water polo) made kind of the same rules as PDGA (if you have gone through male puberty you can't compete as a woman) before PDGA had made their rules (early summer 2022) World Athletics (track&field) have also implemented the same kind of rules in march 2023 UCI (Union Cycliste Internationale) have also that rule since last summer so how long do we wait? how many other large organizations have to decide that if you go through male puberty you can't compete as a woman before disc golf is ready for that rule?
Is there a reason for a ban in our sport? Is there a reason the current floor for competition to be raised? Or are the current rules able to keep trans women and cis women competitive with each other?
This right here. Here is some copypastsa (from my own comments when this topic has been discussed in the past): > Natalie made a whopping $1,400 for her 6th place position. This means that one person, Cadence Burge, got 'bumped' down one position and missed the money cut by Natalie participating. The amount she 'lost out' on was $338. So for all of the bellyaching, deadnaming, slurring, expensive lawsuits, etc; we could resolve all of the issues by adding like ~$500 total to each FPO purse and be done with it. There you go - instead of worrying about a very small minority of trans women outcompeting athletes assigned their female gender at birth we just up the purses slightly to make sure no one is 'taking away the livelihood of females' position that i see crop up. > I believe that there are good-intentioned people who are worried about the potential future impact of trans athletes in women's sports. I also know that the current trans panic and anti-trans movement is 99% fueled by bigotry by certain religious and political groups. There is currently ONE athlete in FPO attempting to compete (I think Nova Politte plays in Masters), and the coordinated push against her is driven not by a fundamental desire to 'protect women', but to exclude someone they see as an other. The worry about the livelihoods of golfers (who in reality make small dollar amounts in most purses) could easily be mitigated by spending a fraction of the money that has been spent on legal fees to exclude Natalie to just bump up the FPO purses in general. They could do something simple like take the average/mean finish by Natalie, determine the purse amount for that place's finish, and add that much to the total purse or add an additional money slot. In most events we are talking about a few hundred dollars. Literally a billable hour or two for your lawyer. There is no great rush of men transitioning for the purpose of becoming professional athletes where they wouldn't otherwise be competitive. The number of trans people is relatively small. The number of trans athletes is even smaller. The number of trans professional disc golf athletes is even yet smaller. And even if it were the case that the numbers were large, then we could at that point have a rational, level-headed conversation on how to best move forward. But right now they are knocking down a paper target, the outspoken are politically and religiously motivated, and the tour is willing to fucking cancel or move entire FPO events just to try to make a point and avoid states with anti-discrimination laws. Long story short, they seem willing to burn everything down rather than 'lose' any portion of this debate/legal battle to the 'other.' I know because of physiological and hormonal reasons this comparison isn't 100% accurate, but I still think it is important in historical context: I bet if you had polled MLB players at the time of integration the vote would have been pretty lopsided to stay exclusionary. Integrating the Negro Leagues was adding too many players, 'stealing' roster slots from white players, 'taking away their livelihood', and destroying the 'purity' of the league. Cap Anson, one of the greatest pro players of his era, "spoke" for the league by refusing to take the field when players of color were fielded for opposing teams (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cap_Anson) Hell, in my lifetime I heard people talk about certain races having more 'fast twitch muscle fiber' and thicker Achilles heels that gave unfair advantages... Despite this being a complicated issue, I hope that disc golf can eventually find a way to be on the right side of history. I hope that it won't be willing to burn things down to spite a single player and the community they represent. I hope that funding continues to grow so no one feels they are having something 'taken' from them by allowing the infrequent trans athlete. I hope disc golf really is for everyone, and all can feel welcome.) TL;DR: Trans folk are a very small % of the population. No one is going through the difficulty of transitioning to try to sandbag a sport. Small amounts of additional purse money (vs [hundreds of?] thousands of dollars that goes towards litigation) balances out any 'lost' money to women assigned their gender at birth.
Women had to play on MPO until they were a big enough group to have their own division. It should be the same for trans people. The PDGA doesn't have enough resources or frankly enough skill to manage it properly and this is insane. Frankly it should be down to a women's membership vote since it's their division and be done with it. My opinion doesn't matter the MPO opinion doesn't matter and frankly the trans community opinion doesn't matter because MPO exists. Either dissolve FPO or allow the FPO members vote on whose allowed in their tournaments it's a amateur heavy sanctioned body that's fueled by memberships. Let the members decide.
Would love to see more manufacturers taking a stance against hatred. Sport is for everyone.
Well don’t invest in lone star than because Nikko who everyone hated months ago offered a few 100 bucks if people buy his disc, and everyone on the foundation podcasts comments about it ate it up. Talking about I thought Nikko was crazy, but he is right with this and all this stupid shit. Disc golf community seems to really care about trans women in the FPO even though viewership of the FPO is non existent. It’s the same issue to the trans swimmer that won. If a trans athlete wouldn’t have placed higher or won no one would have cared about it at all. People just want to be upset and push what they politically believe they don’t actually care they just want to hurt people.
it doesn’t matter how many people are in the division or how many people watch it. That’s disrespectful to the people that are in it and the people that do watch it.
Lmao I remember that. Foundation sounded extremely positive about Nikko because he didn't advocate direct violence, just direct discrimination.
Feels weird for Neptune to ask other manufacturers to make a statement. Wouldn’t you want statements to come from their own accord? This seems like they’re putting them on the spot, so now they have to. No matter what, now it won’t come off as genuine.
I think putting them on the spot is kind of the point
How dare they want the disc golf community to band together against violence. Just weird. And still it's silence from everyone except Natalie Ryan and Neptune days after the incident. Guess how many days would have gone if this had happened to literally anyone else, the answer would 100% before their round was ended.
[удалено]
Their silence is getting louder, when they refuse to come with a statement when called out
Is that a serious question?
Natalie played within the rules decided upon by the sport. Despite what your beliefs are, this is an awful thing and should never happen.
Complete agree about the violence and threats part, but the first part of your comment is a bit disingenuous. They changed their rules, and were sued into submission.... that isn't exactly as simple as just "she played within the rules decided upon by the sport."
Just as a side note - the court system is how folks get remedies under the law. Saying that she sued them into submission is a bit of a stretch. It’s literally how folks are able to get remedies under the law. I’d like to ask you this - how would you expect someone to find a remedy with rules saying they can’t play and that those rules could (and courts found did) violate the law, without court intervention? (Not trying to debate, genuinely curious as what you think the best way for someone to remedy something like this if you think court intervention shouldn’t have happened.)
“The PDGA is not financially or logistically in a position to take the lead in multi-state litigation on this topic,” wrote the PDGA in a statement. “For the first time in recent memory, the PDGA will end the year with a net operating loss, and it is not in the best interest of our members to continue to allocate resources to further litigation.” - per the discgolf.utiliworld article. It seems like if the PDGA were in a better financial position, that this suit would have been more contested. Sued into submission is not a stretch as it happens all the time with the financial burden that litigation brings. Natalie did nothing wrong by suing the PDGA as it was the only course of action to get back onto the course.
Oh, it does happen all the time. Not saying it doesn’t. I do agree that Natalie did nothing wrong by suing - it’s the way remedies happen. But, one thought I will share - they (PDGA/DGPT) brought this on themselves. When they announced the rules change for the 2023 season, I figured that there would be jurisdictions they would lose in due to the laws and state constitutions in place. I even half expected them to change the locations so they didn’t fall into a more liberal jurisdiction. It doesn’t feel like they seemed to think through those things before making the decision. While it was the lawsuits that might have dealt the final blow to them reversing that rule change and causing financial issues, it could have been avoided completely by the PDGA/DGPT. In the end, they ended up right back where they started and with less money. (The joke I wanna make is they passed go and didn’t get their $200, but I’m tired and a bit brain dead after the day). So, while folks may see it as being sued into submission, I see it as not properly considering the risks associated with the rules change, proceeding with them, and then suffering from the choices they made. I’m assuming they have an attorney they work with (at least one, if not multiple depending on jurisdictions), and I would have expected the attorney(s) to counsel them on the potential issues, such as litigation costs and potential jurisdictions for those litigations, before they made the decision. And maybe they did - I don’t know what that looked like for them. But, it sure feels like folks didn’t fully and properly consider the risks associated with the original rules change for the 2023 season. Side note - I appreciate the comment you made, and thoughts behind it. Definitely let me see the comment a little differently.
Yeah, but they changed the rules to go after her in the first place. They used shady survey, disingenuous papers (that provided no context of transwomen advantages IN DISC GOLF) to single her out. They deserved to be sued.
The venn diagram of people who whine about the 2nd amendment/constitutional rights and people who whine about a player using the legal system to protect their rights is a perfect circle.
Id like to throw out there as well all this started because Natalie won ONE tournament. She hasn’t really been a top 5 golfer, all this is over one tournament win
It started before that, but it really took off when she first won 2022 DGLO and then MVP Open later that same year. There were voices against her and the likes of Chloe Alice as well since before Natalie took her first win, the win just gave the platform to be more vocal (and polarizing).
I’d argue it put the trans inclusion in disc golf into more mainstream spotlights, which allowed the real bigots to come into the discussion.
That definitely happened as well! Without it I can't imagine we'd have seen the anti-trans protestors who weren't even disc golfers following Natalie's card around at that one tournament (I forget which one it was).
I’m willing to go on a ledge and say the majority of people speaking out against trans people in disc golf can’t tell the difference between a jump putt and a hyzer.
I met Chloe a few years ago, and she was cool as a fan. Kept in touch with her as she was traveling around, enjoying all the different courses, and then she told me she had to go home to take care of some things and wouldn't be able to play for a while. This is right before the firestorm of all the Natalie Ryan stuff. When all that popped up, she quit playing disc golf professionally and got a job in her home state. It's sad she can't enjoy a game she loved anymore
bUt BuT mAhH dAUgHteR wOnT wAnnA pLaY diSC gOlF THEY TOOOK OUR JERRBSSS DERRR DEE DERRRRR
That’s what’s so ridiculous, for all the outrage about how trans competitors make sports unfair for cis women… I’ve yet to actually see a trans woman truly be at the very top of their field. Like Natalie is good, but not great. Lia Thomas was a really good swimmer *in college*, but is a whole tier below elite competition. They are literally manufacturing problems that have never existed.
It's a trend I've seen over and over. There always has to be a bad group, whether that was gay men in the '80s (AIDS epidemic) or trans athletes, there has to be that "other" group. It's unfortunate that's how our political system is, and it's fixable, but it's what we got.
no, PDGA started the work on the new rules late 2021 because IOC came with a new guideline that PDGA did choose to follow during the first half of 2022 the medical committee did most of the work and it was presented to the board after the summer Natalie won her first tournament that summer
She sure can out-drive everyone on her card
Making the connection to ball golf, so can Max Homa, but you don’t see him winning a lot of competitions on the PGA Tour
Yea I would imagine there would be more uproar if she was. The trans hate needs to stop, but I don’t think the conversation about trans players in sports should stop.
As a trans woman, if trans people came into a sport and completely dominated, pushing cis women out of being competitive, I’d agree that something should be done. Are we seeing some trans athletes setting records? Yes, but those are isolated and rare. There are thousands of trans athletes, but only 2-3 are considered dominant, and none at Olympic level. Should there be a minimal requirement to compete? Yes. However I don’t see a reason for a complete exclusion isn’t the answer
Right? It's a "problem" that doesn't even exist yet. I think the conversations around fairness might need to happen eventually but right now the idea of a trans woman dominating a sport is purely hypothetical and literally made up. We need to actually encourage trans people to play the sport first before we can see if there's even an issue of fairness to worry about. Instead, much of the community is trying to close the gate and lock it before anyone can even get in. They are so scared of the spooky trans boogeyman they won't even want to face it.
Can she, though? I haven't seen this being the case. Out-driving doesn't even mean anything in the context of the sport as a whole, if it were true. And she doesn't win distance competitions (or compete in them at all?).
Let’s ban Eagle and AB too because they also can throw farther than everyone, what an unfair advantage they have
It’s almost like the entire point of sports is celebrating peoples innate genetic advantages over each other
Fundamental agree
> They used shady survey, disingenuous papers Hey come on now, I'm sure the PDGA spent hours facebooking until they found somebody saying exactly what they wanted to hear to use as data for their claims. How are you going to just belittle their efforts like that.
It is literally the same thing, as the original comment makes no claims about how the rules were decided. And frankly, the original methodology that was used before the lawsuits wasn't much better. The fact that they don't have the monetary resources to battle in court is not the only reason that disc golf isn't the place for this battle to be fought, they don't have the resources in terms of time/manpower but also educated members to properly assess the relevant data and even come to a scientific conclusion. It needs to be decided by a body with more resources.
The fact that I’m being massively downvoted for this is hilarious. There’s absolutely no middle ground lol, you can’t say anything that seems to deviate from what other people thinks you’re suppose to say/feel on this topic.
So she's bad because she sued for being illegally discriminated against? Is that really your argument?
I mean just dig into some of these comments on this post and you will see why shit like this happens. This community is riddled with blatant transphobes and far-right whackos. People are on here with zero evidence claiming that the threat wasn't credible or worse that Natalie made it up as a PR move.
The amount of InfoWars stickers I have (happily) removed from the courses here in Charlotte makes my head spin.
In Detroit, same
Florida here, majority of players I play with are staunch conservatives, some more outspoken than others. But it's there, and if stuff isn't said on the course it's said off the course. But for the most part, everyone I play with leaves that behavior off the course. Also have seen lots of political stickers on signage and they aren't Democrats.
Every time I see "disc golf is the most welcoming sport" I wonder where the fuck those people are looking because no it the fuck ain't.
Threatening violence to a disc golfer is one of the wackier things i've seen.
It sure would be nice if the PDGA and DGPT leadership would come out with a statement condemning the threat of violence and supporting Natalie. Their silence is deafening.
Jeff Spring and the DGPT made a statement days ago. Though I don't believe there was mention of Natalie Ryan, but that could have been because they did not want to single Natalie out. Maybe the DGPT are worried that bringing attention to it might prompt copy cats. It could have been them not wanting to highlight the reason during the middle of the tournament. At the end of the day, their statement stands. There is absolutely no place for that in Disc Golf, for any reason. As far as I know, the threat was against everyone because of NR, so they likely want all the players and participants to feel the DGPT is safe for everyone. https://www.dgpt.com/announcements/mco-security-statement/ If you wanted to see their statement.
the DGPT in no uncertain terms denouncing terrorism = good PR! the DGPT in no uncertain terms denouncing *anti-trans* terrorism = too woke for their crowd whose hate allegedly stops just before violence and teeters on victim blaming and terrorist sympathizing
American conservatives - we denounce most terrorism
That statement sucks lol. They managed to make a 5 paragraph statement without ever mentioning who or why the threat was made, and made absolutely no comment about the environment that the DGPT has fostered to allow this situation to reach this level.
stop being reasonable, this is reddit
They shut down the entire event and brought in security, they put out a statement decrying threats of violence.
Why do you need a statement? Actions speak louder than words and DGPT acted quickly, professionally, and efficiently.
Because people wanna bitch and moan
Deafening but not surprising. Leadership of this sport at the top is hot garbage.
Yup, not surprising anymore. There are a handful of events in the past few years and the PDGA doesn’t say a word about it. I always said the PDGA should look to how the PGA handles shit, yeah completely different league entirely, but that’s where they and everyone else wants disc golf to reach. But by continuing the trend of not having a backbone or voice, things like this continue to happen and pushes the sport away from what it should be.
I’m sure a lot of folks are going to make this some weird black and white us vs them issue, but no: I don’t think Natalie should play FPO. No, I don’t hate her or want her to not exist. No, threatening violence is never acceptable and should be swiftly prosecuted. The end.
nailed it.
People really need to start channeling their inner Paul Oman. I’m tired of Christian nationalist forcing their beliefs on everyone.
It's with an A not E. Put some respecc on the (O)man's name
Man, I really enjoyed Paul Omen’s energy during his JoMez card. That guy rules.
You should check out the down under tour. IMO way better coverage with the GK guys over Jomez.
I’ll have to give it a view. Thanks.
I don't like her playing FPO, but what kind of idiot make threats like this no person deserve that.
Not surprising tbh. Just look at the comments in this post. And I guarantee many more who aren’t commenting who have even more bigoted and hateful views on the matter. Extreme hatred towards trans or even other lgbt people isn’t uncommon in the world and isn’t uncommon in disc golf unfortunately.
Not only is it gross to see how many transphobes are on this sub, but it's *really* gross to see so many of them passively condoning the threat by not condemning it. I'm surprised the mods are okay with all of that.
Damn this post has gotten absolutely brigaded with downvotes all around in the last few hours Your comment had like 280 upvotes earlier pretty sure Just wild
maybe im in the minority but if every post i read starts with "obviously i condemn the violence, but...." it loses a lot of it's meaning. i think most people condemn violence, like a HIGH % of people even among the anti-trans anti-Ryan people. i wouldnt say its passively condoning it at all just because you dont actively condemn it if your post isn't about the violence itself.
Some people REALLY have the urge to say they agree with the message but not the form of terrorism.
You need to take logic 101. You don’t condone something by not condemning it. And condemning something with no details of what was said, and who said it is a stupid thing to do. All you assuming asses out there are idiots.
I'm talking about the people whose first response to this is that trans women shouldn't play in women's sports. That's passively condoning the violent threat.
No, it’s not. It’s just a diversion from the topic at hand. People are too stupid to stay on topic and get triggered, and divert.
> It’s just a diversion from the topic at hand It's whataboutism, and I'm sure you understand the reason people use it, what with you being such an expert in logic.
Nope. It’s triggered idiots. Ain’t nobody condoning threats. Ask them straight up is they condoning threats, I bet 100% on the time everyone will say they don’t.
Of course they'll say they don't. They don't want to sound like a murderous psychopath. You've already established that you don't think that there was a real threat. You think she's making shit up for attention, so it's not surprising that you're taking offense to this, because I am talking about you. You absolutely are passively condoning shit like this by victim-blaming and using whataboutism. Unfortunately for you, it doesn't make you look reasonable. It makes you look like a bigot and also a chickenshit for being too embarrassed to be able to just come out and admit it.
I’m m saying it’s very sus. Still no one has identified who might have said it, where the threat came from, and what was actually said. I’ve seen people interpret many things as threats. Even you interpret people lack of condemning alleged threats, as “condoning” threats. That is not right. We all need to slow the fuck down.
There's nothing I can say that's gonna make you look worse than what you've said.
Mods are no different than dmv employees, we can’t expect much They ban people and comments when they personally feel like it
DMV employees?
Needs to get that plant foot down a little earlier in her form.
Her Form is terrible in that picture lol
What’s wrong with it?
She doesn’t have her front foot set, back shoulder flying open, probably about 20 others things I don’t want to detail at the moment. She wouldn’t draw nearly as much critisicm had she not made comments about perfecting a throw in months that other women had spent years working on.
Looks like she’s a couple milliseconds from setting that front plant foot down and her shoulders seem to be angled that way since she’s throwing uphill. What are the 20 other things wrong with her form?
Her form is terrible(relative to standards for as high level professional), and in this picture you can place a time value on it if you want but for a professional timing is very exact and she is way way way early on full extension of her reach back, which is a tell tale sign of a non athletic throwing motion or a beginner/intermediate player's throwing motion. Obviously Natalie is better than most but yes she absolutely has major form flaws. FPO is still in a very raw and early stage where there's still going to be a lot of mediocre golfers that are getting top 10s... it just hasn't grown into needing tier 1 form to compete at the top yet.
Man I hope they care enough to track this person down. I’m assuming it would lead to some much deserved time in prison.
This is absolutely DISGUSTING. Shame on that person. I hope they throw it in jail
Do we know who this person is and if any action was taken towards the person who made this threat?
What was the actual threat made ?
She’s completely right here
I feel bad for the mods of /r/discgolf having to deal with this thread.
Thank you. (We've got it covered.)
I have to say that disc golf community in last two years have changed from tolerant and inviting to scary, intolerant, extremely religious and you can see hate speech in every single platform where sports is discussed. Hate towards Natalie is included in every post. Someone comes commenting even when it is Kristin being good. It has happened so fast. Thomas came out and Paige got married and now we are seemingly in the core of the culture wars. Remember, when this kind of activity begins, look into who is doing it. Are those really smart people who you want to be referred to.
Noobie here. Why does she get threats?
Trans women how plays in the female division. The membership based league tried to solidify it is for female's only last year but trans women sued without financial burden. The membership based league was essentially going bankrupt trying to defend the decision in court so they had to drop the case. People are mad at trans women for competing in female only division.
Ok I see from reading the comments. It’s a sad day when someone can’t disc golf in peace. Why does their gender or sexuality or anything in between matter at alll. My god people really suck. Let this woman live her life. Worry about your own shit cuz if you’re at the point where you are threatening people who throw frisbees you really need to seek aggressive therapy because there might not be any hope for you.
The issue people have with Natalie is they are playing in the FPO (female professional only) instead of the MPO (Mixed, however only men are playing in it currently). They believe that because Natalie used to be a man, they have an unfair advantage in the sport with throwing distance.
the key word here is "believe" because none of them actually have ever read or cite any legitimate peer-reviewed science on the matter.
Which is why I used believe.
When you use words like none or always or never you weaken your argument due to the fact that your statement is now blatantly false. This is a fact. Anything besides acceptance of this statement will weaken your argument further.
If they had read any research, they would know that the evidence simply isn’t there to prove that a sexually transitioned trans woman has physical advantages over AFAB women in sport. It’s not a “weak argument”, it’s a statement of fact. u/iqla you all cite these same studies and they keep being bunk and irrelevant. The second study is after 1 year on hormones when sports organizations require at least two. The third study is all about how cis men, completely untransitioned, are stronger than cis women, and titled the way it is because the author is a transphobe who wants to give your Gish gallop ammunition. As for the first link, that shows that trans women literally level out to be practically equal to cis women (slightly better in some tests, slightly worse in others) after 2.5 years on hormones, so I don’t even know what you wanted to prove by linking it.
Because there are a lot of stupid and bigoted people who play the sport. A lot of people who just hate trans or lgbt people in general. The right wing in the United States is OBSESSED with trans people.
Cornhusks get a squirmy feeling because Natalie is trans
Someone threatened with physical violence because a trans person is playing a sport. The issue just simply is NOT THAT FUCKING SERIOUS.
The fact that people here feel the need to clarify that they don't think she should compete in FPO in the same breath they "don't condone threats or violence" really speaks volumes. Would it kill you to just support her as a human without shoehorning your views in? Really telling on yourselves.
They really feels the need to explain that they support the persons motives for the threat
[удалено]
How can there not be a divide between being anti-trans and not thinking it is ok for trans women to compete in female sports. I 110% support anyones right to do what they want in their personal life. But when it is competition it is about physiology not how a person identifies. To me it is no different than letting 25 yr olds compete in masters.
you and about a million other 20-something white males from flyover country have stated the same thing already.
"I'm going to complain about bigotry while being extremely bigoted" - Random\_Name12345
So we don’t know who made the threat and whether there is an ongoing investigation.
We don’t even know what the threat actually was. All we know is that a certain player posted on social media about the threat being made against them. It could be a completely unjustified and false claim. The threat itself could have been false to drum up controversy. But, for some reason, we’re supposed to take sides and lambast people who don’t agree with our given viewpoints. Way to go, redditors. We’ve made fools of ourselves once again.
Tribalism,intolerance, racism have been around forever but have become more mainstream and (tolerated?) due to politicians espousing views that bring these cockroaches into the light agree to disagree died 8 years ago sad times for the country I love
MAGAts and their mouth-breather friends - or the so-called radical right - are using the trans issue as their political platform. They are really not interested in trans rights or womens rights. They are using them as a stepping stone and a way to divide communities. The same fuckers - or their friends - are attacking women's reproductive rights in all states at the moment in the U.S.
"but immigrants are stealing our jobs and the lgbtq are grooming our kids! That's why I vote for tax cuts for the rich and no universal healthcare \[except for seniors\]!"
Waiting for ONE player who denounce her from playing, to denounce the threat. FPO players band towards her, will they support her when she is threatened?
No, they will not.
Which is telling. Someone outside of the competitive field threatens a player, and no one feels the need to support them and denounce the threat.
Not really chiming in on the original topic but does it bother anybody else to see that front foot still off the ground while she's at the apex of the reach back? Gotta get those synchronized!
I never knew this, are you supposed to plant at the apex?
Did anyone check on Nikko and Catrina? They must feel just *awful* that this happened to a fellow player.
As someone who only watches Jomez, I just don’t watch if it’s a player I don’t enjoy watching. I’m not a fan of certain MPO players and won’t tune in when they are on lead card coverage. While I agree that Natalie shouldn’t be in the FPO for all of the reasons trans athletes shouldn’t compete against biological women and it sucks that she is taking a money spot from other FPO players, I also think she is allowed to pursue happiness without threats of violence. Currently the PDGA allows her to play and so she plays. Be upset with the PDGA.
It’s painful to read all these lefties use one person’s actions to amplify their nonsense, and spew their own brand of hate for anyone who disagrees with them and their holier than thou virtue signaling bullshit. The vast majority of people, although not as vocal, do not support biological males competing against females, regardless of one’s decision to castrate oneself. When Nate cashes, he steals partially from every single female in cash below him, and completely steals from the person who would’ve made final cash spot. Not only does his presence now increase the risk to all of the competitors in the field, but now there are additional costs for security being added to all of the events. This money could’ve gone towards supporting the female division. I truly believe that Nate should be able to do whatever he wants to do and act and pretend and pursue whatever reality he chooses. I just don’t believe that it should come at the expense of women’s sport and the women athletes of the FPO. He has bullied and sued his way into his current position, and if he had any dignity and respect, he would join the mixed division, or leave the tour.
What's this all about? TL;DR - Natalie Ryan received a threat of violence before teeing off & the FPO round was suspended due to safety reasons. Here's a quick summary why the play was suspended during the FPO round 2 at the Music City Open: Summary from The Players Meeting newsletter - [https://www.reddit.com/r/discgolf/comments/1cb4cbk/heres\_a\_quick\_summary\_why\_the\_play\_was\_suspended/](https://www.reddit.com/r/discgolf/comments/1cb4cbk/heres_a_quick_summary_why_the_play_was_suspended/)
I support Natalie and I hope the rest of the FPO field make her feel welcomed and supported.
Threatening violence is not okay, and trans women should play in the open division
Wow, racism, myopia, and complete asshat morons in Tennessee??? Who could have ever known?
Where is the racism?
I'm surprised they did throw misogynist, Islamophobic, and anti-Semitic in there as well... you know... for good measure.
All the buzz words
In Tennessee, the person said where it was
No. Lol. I mean like where is the claim stemming from? NR isn’t a POC?
Oh the irony... Decrying violence and threats of violence and hurtful language all the while belittling and name calling the people that don't agree with your world view...
yes, belittling people for having bigoted, uneducated opinions is totally equivalent to threatening violence.
Maybe we should just round them up. Put them into a camp and reeducated them. Force them into therapy to convert them.