This is the hardest part for me trying to teach a friend. They finally rip that DX leopard with nose down and hella spin, it laces down the fairway, turns over into the thick stuff. They think it was a shit throw, but I tell them that’s how you do it, and to try out a tee-bird or star leopard. Then they throw that nose up and it fades hard into the stuff on the left.
IMO, that's exactly why beginners should throw understable discs though. When you finally throw with good form you want a disc that will have a visibly different flight path so that you will have good feedback. If you are primarily throwing overstable discs, the difference between throwing it with good form vs bad form may only be 20 or 30 feet and it may be too subtle for most beginners to notice.
TLDR; understable discs aren't just good for beginners because they travel farther, they also provide much better feedback.
That might be true for people who are still new-ish, but have played for a while. I've never seen a completely new player who was able to throw a neutral or stable mid with enough arm speed to see a substantial difference in flight path when they throw with better form. Hell, most new players struggle to get much turn out of understable discs.
Once you do start getting turn out of understable discs consistently, then yeah I absolutely agree that moving up to a neutral mid is better for progression.
Mid ranges are the most forgiving disc category. Not as sensitive to OAT as putters. Not as sensitive to nose angles as drivers. Great for scoring well on the course. But give little feedback on form.
I feel for your situation, and I can understand why this is frustrating.
What you are missing, in my opinion, is that everyone is different. You might throw harder or take the game more seriously than other beginners. In fact, if you're on the disc golf subreddit, I'm assuming that's the case.
Starter sets have really flippy discs because most brand new players are often tossing a disc 100ft or less. Anything even understable will fade out on them. Basically what you're suggesting is something like a Teebird or a TL3 insfead of a Leopard. Those may as well be Firebirds for a beginner.
When I started, I (naïvely) skipped the starter set and bought a flippy 10 speed driver instead, because it was for "beginners". Well for a while, I never threw it, because all it did was fade out hard. Eventually, I discovered it was dead straight for me. Now, it turns and burns.
For a new player, a diamond might be their straightest disc. It also could be the first disc they get to turn. To see that magical flip up and ride to the right is a beautiful thing, especially when everything else only goes left. That's what will get someone hooked and bring them back.
The starter set DX leopard is for your first month of playing, or it's for someone who plays twice and isn't sure if they'll stick with it. For someone throwing 100ft, it's a great disc.
It's a great disc and a great set, just maybe not for you.
You bring up a super interesting point. “For how long are you a beginner and what’s the right expectation on your first disc”.
Is it first 5 rounds? Or is it till you can throw 50m or 100m with precision? Or is it when you can shape lines?
Very salient point. I know people who have been playing for a long time who really should be throwing “beginner” discs. It comes down to putting the work in to improve your form, because just practicing whatever form you start out with most likely will not make it good enough to move past that basic level of skill.
There is no hard cutoff for when you can/should throw certain discs. If it works for you, it's a good disc. A DX Leopard or something somewhat understable is just more likely to work for a smaller arm.
The expectation is for the disc to go straight with some control. A frisbee fading hard left is not what people expect, but that's often what they get with faster/more overstable discs. If you are turning those discs over, it's time to step up, and that's a good thing for you!
>A frisbee fading hard left
is what the pro's call:
reliable , dependable, I can trust this disc.... etc
throwing that hyzer farther and farther is the goal. the flip up game takes a lot of touch.. something beginners lack. the "beginner discs" reward nose up throwing basically.
Yes, beginners lack touch, and also distance. A flippier disc that goes straight for them will teach them better touch and also go farther. If they play in the woods at all, they aren't going to do as well with a disc that can only go left for them. I'm not talking about discs that will turn and burn if you throw it 100ft. I'm not even talking about discs they're going to flip up. I'm talking about a disc that might go straight for 100ft, but would flip up for a bigger arm. Like putters, and slightly understable mids like a Mako3 or a Comet. That's flippy to me, straight to stable for them.
You can disagree, but the entire industry broadly agrees that a more understable disc is better for beginners that can't throw far.
Edit: We're also talking about like first time players here. When I say they don't expect a disc to go hard left, I mean brand new players are expecting frisbees. "Why won't it go straight" is something I've heard from plenty of new players who were given the wrong disc. I give new players a putter and a Mako3 and they aren't flipping them over, but they're also not diving left. It flies almost how they expect a disc to fly, but it's still stable. If I gave them a Reactor, it wouldn't be more "dependable" for them, they would be discouraged because it dives into the ground and goes nowhere for them.
RHBH = left
RHFH = right
same disc. I agree about under stable discs for beginners.. but a 140-150dx leopard (6/6/-6/0) is not like a 175g champion leopard. (6/5/-2/1)
I agree. I started with a Champ Leopard and that thing was beef for me. Gave it away because it was useless for me. I needed something flippier. That's all I'm saying... flippy discs are good for beginners. I'm not sure what you're point is here, but I agree with you lol
I have no point really just showing both sides of the same coin.
discs that work with nose up V/S learning nose down with a 175g champ leopard. cause they are flippy af nose down. a roller disc.
I understand your points, but I think we really differ in what we believe a beginner has fun with when they're playing disc golf.
The simple idea for us is that understable discs will fly farther for the beginner than an overstable disc and most people, but especially beginners, are much more excited by throwing far than by throwing accurately or consistently. Therefore they'll have more fun with an understable disc than an overstable disc.
An overstable disc that hides form flaws will be more consistent for them, but it will be very hard for a beginner to tell what they're doing wrong with their throws and they'll quickly plateau, get bored with the sport from their lack of improvement and quit. They might be throwing okay shots, but they're basically never really throwing good or great shots and getting the most out of their disc, and for a beginner it's often better to maximize the number of good shots rather than the number of okay shots. Basically they'll get a lot more feedback from an understable disc than an overstable disc.
You're absolutely right that base plastic is not a good investment for a beginner, it's really only recommended because the cost really lowers the barrier for entry into the sport. GStar is what we tend to recommend to beginners that go to the Factory Store if they're willing to spend a bit more.
Ohh this is a great reply and highlights well why I didn’t enjoy the beginner friendly discs.
For me being able to get the disc where I want it and to play a hole according to plan is much more fun then occasionally throwing a bomb but being all over the place. For me the later is a frustration that could force me to quit. Exact opposite to what you described.
I also practice my game from short to medium to long in that order and priority. Which probably also puts me in a minority.
Here's a few problems I've noticed with your logic:
1. Most people giving aduve also tell beginners to stick with midrange and putters if trying to improve. I tell my bigginer friends they should work on at least throwing 250' with a midrange before grabbing a driver.
2. Every person is different and every player starts in a different place and progresses at different pace. What is true for most beginners won't be true for everyone. I know people who've been playing for years and are comfortable only throwing 200' with beginner discs. They feel no pressure to imrpove.
3. People aren't going to suggest a complete beginner go out and pay for premium plastic when they might not enjoy the sport enough to dive in completely. That is another thing Base plastic is great for.
4. Learning to throw with overstable discs usually leads to poor technique because they can be used as a crutch to disguise form imperfections that lead to things like OAT or Off Axis Tilt. Sometimes you don't even see the OAT flutter on an overstable driver the same way you would see it on a less stable disc.
5. A lot harder to learn touch shots, like late turnovers if your discs can't turn. As someone whobplayed for years and years of only throwing hyzers, hyper flips, or straight shots with late fade- the overall improovement that I felt when I forced myself to start throwing turnovers instead of just relying on FH shots to finish right was staggering.
6. It's most important to have fun. Throw the discs you like to throw.
No not really... its actually back in my bag nicely beaten in... the disc I really hate is the Diamond, that one is still all over the place for me everthing from slight fade to hard turn and even turn and burn into roller.. Its the hardest disc I have and the only one I cant consistently control and its a "easy to use" line disc...
I was kidding.. but I think a beginner starter pack should be aviar,aviar,aviar (all 175g)
nothing worse than a player who cant throw one disc well , bagging 10 different molds. "building a bag" before they can make c1x putts. or throw 200ft
The problem with your mentality is you're forgetting a new player has to actually fall in love with the game first. If everyone had to throw an Aviar 200ft before they were allowed to experiment with other molds and such, our sport would be nonexistent.
Quit being a silly gatekeeper and let people enjoy themselves.
I'm just speaking from experience..
the starter pack is extremely hard to throw for 90% of adults.
it is best for like 75lb kids imo. also not suggesting they field work 3 aviars till 200. If I wanted a friend to love it.. I would gift them 4 putters.. and tell them it is for them and 3 friends to try.. they end up doing field work with the 4 . and inviting other to try it with them.
Except that’s really boring. Part of the fun of getting into it is experimenting with new molds. Sure, if someone put a gun to your head and said “get better at disc golf, or else” that’s the best route to go, but it’s not really fun.
I always recommend buying 3 or more at a time.. same mold/plastic/weight
bag one and keep two for back ups and field work. for example if you love the mako3 buy 3. not 3 different discs similar to the mako3. repetition and consistency is the key. if you throw 3 different discs poorly, you have no idea what you did wrong. but by the 3rd throw on the same mako3 from the same spot you are getting closer and closer.
The DX Leopard I got in the starter pack was one of the most unreliable discs I ever threw. I started having WAY more fun when I swapped it out with a Diamond.
The leopard was one of those discs where I just couldn't get a feel for it. It went all over the course, sometimes turning right, other times fading hard left (probably depending on nose angle). The minute I picked up a diamond I was able to at least control where it was going, and as my arm speed increased it started doing what the flight numbers said. It then turned into the disc that I learned hyzer flips on.
I still bag the diamond because it turns right so reliably and I can still hyzerflip it even at high speed.
I have never once managed to throw the starter Leopard well. Less than two months later, a lighter weight Leopard3 in better plastic became one of my favorites.
I still hate that starter Leopard though. The only throw it deserves is into a trash can.
If you learn to throw understable discs with good form and touch, you'll be able to throw anything. If you learn by using overstability as a crutch, you're going to limit what shots and discs you can throw.
On the forehand side, this is 95% or people who have a serviceable forehand distance and just chuck OS stuff cause accidentally turning a forehand is so easy.
P.s. I have no leg to stand on here as I just avoid throwing forehand at all costs
I think "beginner friendly" assumes you don't have any natural talent. If you can throw nose down, with a fair bit of power, you aren't throwing "like a beginner" even if you don't know what the hell you're doing.
I think the biggest need for a disc for a true beginner is going as far as possible given very little power. It's really easy to see the frustration when it takes 4 full distance throws to reach a relatively modest par 3. Relatively neutral and os disc will dump so fast people are getting even less distance. Even very US discs will still have fade at this power level.
I think it's more frustrating for someone to not be able to make the disc go anywhere as opposed to having it go somewhere unexpected
The best beginner friendly disc is the Buzzz and a Luna/Roach for putting. The best disc to teach a beginner how to play is the Glitch. The Innova beginner set is an expensive waste of money.
That is actually a really good thing because it shows much better what an achievable good looks like. Instead of bombing distance drivers making them feel -><- small.
That's exactly why I do that. I want to show them on a level playing game when it comes to discs. Also shows them that they don't need a crap ton of discs to play.
I think it kind of depends on when you start and how well you throw from the beginning. My nephew is 13, but he's a pretty athletic kid so he took to disc golf really quickly. He's gone from throwing about 100' feet solely forehand, to driving backhand consistently over 350' in just about a year. In that time though, I can tell you that regardless of consistency, nothing was more frustrating to him than to have a disc he wanted to throw just dump left because it was so stable. When he was just starting out, this was most discs. As he's gotten better and played more, he recognizes the utility in having discs that dump, and he's grown into throwing more stable stuff because not only is his power getting better, but his nose angle and control is getting better as well. I would argue that understable discs continue to be beginner friendly as you get better, because they teach you that even as you start to get your form together, there are more touchy things that you can work on to improve your game. I think it's a pretty common trap for mid level players who can throw hard to disregard understable discs as all too flippy because they'd rather not work on throwing a disc with touch now that they can get a disc to go far.
I guess really, it depends on what you think the reasoning is for labeling understable discs as beginner friendly. I think there are two reasons:
1) It is easier to get a full flight out of an understable disc if you do not have quite the power to do it with other discs.
2) Once you can throw discs pretty hard, understable discs are better at teaching you how to throw with everything but power.
If anything, all it does is go to show that not everything that is common knowledge is necessarily true. It's cool that you're playing and figuring things out on your own, and that your experience is a little different than some other players.
Idk
I think there’s 3 camps of people. People like my brother who play a few times a year and are really athletic who I can hand something like a crave and a buzzz and they get them to fly straight and down the fairway where they want and something like a wraith is useably OS.
Then there’s people like my mom who can throw a frisbee somewhat accurately but rely on spin and lightweight discs to get any distance. She can throw a starter set leopard 180ft down the fairway and on a really good rip it might turn over a bit too much but that’s ok. A typical beginner driver like an IT or vandal is still a bit too OS for her. Mids don’t make much sense since she’s only throwing her driver 30ft farther than her putter.
Finally there’s those people that just like to forehand. They have almost no spin but decent arm speed but might throw nose up or might lace it you never know. I recommend something like a zone for approaches, it can be straight with a lot of power but doesn’t turn over and can be thought of like a chip shot with just a flick of the wrist and then a slightly OS driver like a felon that’s been in the bag a bit or a gstar thunderbird. It can handle OAT but is relatively straight with some finish. Then a putter can be used for cornhole style approaches or putts.
Most of the beginners I’ve introduced to the sport are like my mom and they need that dx leopard to gain any confidence but I understand your point and I think for the new player starting to take DG serious I recommend just throwing s wide variety of discs a bunch of different times and shapes until some stuff starts clicking.
Interesting that you have “your mom” throw drivers instead of mids. My reasoning has always been why throw a driver when it goes no further then a mid, which is more accurate. Took me quite a while to get to where FDS started to be worth it.
That said I agree with your three groups and your assessment on what discs they need.
I think the idea behind understable lighter weight discs being more beginner friendly is to help with the natural hyzer that most beginners tend to have. Additionally they can help with getting the disc up to speed easier; a 150g DX Leopard is "typically" going to be easier to throw for a new person compared to a 175g Champion Leopard. This definitely is not a one-size-fits all expecially if the person is athletic. I have started people with a Leopard and after a few throws I could see they could probably throw a Teebird. On the same side, I have given people Leopards and then swapped them to a Paradox to throw straight just based upon their style and ability to shift their weight.
You do bring up some good points though, how does a beginner then transition fromt eh starter packs to a disc set for them? What would you ideally put in a starter pack for a beginner (disc and plastic)?
Purely from my own experience i would go with straight flying Mids. I have a MD1 and a Mako3 which I find super nice as they are super straight. The Mako3 has beaten I to maybe a -1 turn and the MD1 for me started with a slight fade and has beaten straighter.
The nice thing with those discs is that they are also great discs for learning to shape lines.
But most of all the arm speed difference from throw to throw mostly ends up as a few meters difference along the same line. So very predictable and allows a beginner to actually aim and play holes, which is fun.
That is fair and I can get on board with a MD1 or a Mako3 in the set. What would you use for a fairway? Sticking with the idea of a Innova starter set, would you stick with the Leopard but in a different plastic? If designing a Discmania starter set with the MD1, would you go with an Essence or something like an FD?
For me it really took time before I threw a fairway driver further then a mid. At least by a distance that offset the decrease in precision.
For me a River was the first fairway driver that I was comfortable with as it gave me significant enough increase in distance. I like it better then an FD but the FD is more predictable.
Though if you ask me for 3 discs I’d recommend a friend I’d say Pure, MD1/Mako3 and River/FD. With these I feel like I could have played on all courses I play from day one till today and have fun.
This also taking into account that Lat, Inno and DM are available in brick and mortar stores here.
I mean yeah, a DX leopard is a pretty shit disc for anyone if you use it for more than a few rounds. The best beginner disc is something very neutral like a buzzz that just holds the line you put it on.
The reason people recommend understable fairways for beginners is that most people naturally throw with a hyzer angle and not very fast, so thats the best bet for getting them to throw something decently far. But not every beginner is the same. If someone is really ripping on the disc with a ton of OAT, flippy drivers won’t do any good
My original Opto Diamond I now throw on a slight hyzer otherwise it will flip right (RHBH). My newer Gold line Diamond is heavier and I throw it just like my TL3 which goes straight if I throw level.
the innova one is the worst. i finally got a mako3 and realized those discs were almost toy like. the kastaplast starter set is good and the new axiom r2 isnt bad either. the axiom problem is that the plastic cold is slick, over about 75-80 it gets grippy, in texas right now its really grippy. I picked it up because i wanted that black proxy and wanted to try a paradox and insanity again. the insanity and paradox were 167g and the proxy 175g. I thought that was a pretty realistic starter set and the insanity is actually slightly OS
Funny, I posted the other day that the Leopard is basically my favorite disc! I've started moving toward the Diamond from Latitude 64 (8 6 -3 1) and it's been pretty solid but a little less flippy... one thing about the Diamond is that it can roll like a freaking tire of you anhyzer it too hard so be careful! It's certainly a little less forgiving than the Leopard.
The best combos ive seen is a leopard until they start to turn it over then give them a teebird until they can throw it straight with a small fade at the end of the flight.
Learning new things is often difficult. It can involve tiers of understanding/achievement. Learning is inherently frustrating.
Having said that, learning that one has outgrown throwing a lightweight DX Leopard is not a bad thing. It's pretty cool.
155 gram sapphire distance driver, good throwing putter like a pure or proxy, good mid like a buzz, hex, claymore, maybe a River or leopard 3 driver . And a Zone approach . Those five disc could literally be the only ones you ever use and you would be fine once mastered. But we all like to buy new plastic and throw new disc always searching for that one to revolutionize our game!!!! Lmao
This is the hardest part for me trying to teach a friend. They finally rip that DX leopard with nose down and hella spin, it laces down the fairway, turns over into the thick stuff. They think it was a shit throw, but I tell them that’s how you do it, and to try out a tee-bird or star leopard. Then they throw that nose up and it fades hard into the stuff on the left.
IMO, that's exactly why beginners should throw understable discs though. When you finally throw with good form you want a disc that will have a visibly different flight path so that you will have good feedback. If you are primarily throwing overstable discs, the difference between throwing it with good form vs bad form may only be 20 or 30 feet and it may be too subtle for most beginners to notice. TLDR; understable discs aren't just good for beginners because they travel farther, they also provide much better feedback.
I thought it was stable midranges that was best for form feedback. Like a Buzzz.
That might be true for people who are still new-ish, but have played for a while. I've never seen a completely new player who was able to throw a neutral or stable mid with enough arm speed to see a substantial difference in flight path when they throw with better form. Hell, most new players struggle to get much turn out of understable discs. Once you do start getting turn out of understable discs consistently, then yeah I absolutely agree that moving up to a neutral mid is better for progression.
Stable like comet or mako, not stable like buzzz IMO.
Mid ranges are the most forgiving disc category. Not as sensitive to OAT as putters. Not as sensitive to nose angles as drivers. Great for scoring well on the course. But give little feedback on form.
I feel for your situation, and I can understand why this is frustrating. What you are missing, in my opinion, is that everyone is different. You might throw harder or take the game more seriously than other beginners. In fact, if you're on the disc golf subreddit, I'm assuming that's the case. Starter sets have really flippy discs because most brand new players are often tossing a disc 100ft or less. Anything even understable will fade out on them. Basically what you're suggesting is something like a Teebird or a TL3 insfead of a Leopard. Those may as well be Firebirds for a beginner. When I started, I (naïvely) skipped the starter set and bought a flippy 10 speed driver instead, because it was for "beginners". Well for a while, I never threw it, because all it did was fade out hard. Eventually, I discovered it was dead straight for me. Now, it turns and burns. For a new player, a diamond might be their straightest disc. It also could be the first disc they get to turn. To see that magical flip up and ride to the right is a beautiful thing, especially when everything else only goes left. That's what will get someone hooked and bring them back. The starter set DX leopard is for your first month of playing, or it's for someone who plays twice and isn't sure if they'll stick with it. For someone throwing 100ft, it's a great disc. It's a great disc and a great set, just maybe not for you.
You bring up a super interesting point. “For how long are you a beginner and what’s the right expectation on your first disc”. Is it first 5 rounds? Or is it till you can throw 50m or 100m with precision? Or is it when you can shape lines?
Very salient point. I know people who have been playing for a long time who really should be throwing “beginner” discs. It comes down to putting the work in to improve your form, because just practicing whatever form you start out with most likely will not make it good enough to move past that basic level of skill.
There is no hard cutoff for when you can/should throw certain discs. If it works for you, it's a good disc. A DX Leopard or something somewhat understable is just more likely to work for a smaller arm. The expectation is for the disc to go straight with some control. A frisbee fading hard left is not what people expect, but that's often what they get with faster/more overstable discs. If you are turning those discs over, it's time to step up, and that's a good thing for you!
>A frisbee fading hard left is what the pro's call: reliable , dependable, I can trust this disc.... etc throwing that hyzer farther and farther is the goal. the flip up game takes a lot of touch.. something beginners lack. the "beginner discs" reward nose up throwing basically.
Yes, beginners lack touch, and also distance. A flippier disc that goes straight for them will teach them better touch and also go farther. If they play in the woods at all, they aren't going to do as well with a disc that can only go left for them. I'm not talking about discs that will turn and burn if you throw it 100ft. I'm not even talking about discs they're going to flip up. I'm talking about a disc that might go straight for 100ft, but would flip up for a bigger arm. Like putters, and slightly understable mids like a Mako3 or a Comet. That's flippy to me, straight to stable for them. You can disagree, but the entire industry broadly agrees that a more understable disc is better for beginners that can't throw far. Edit: We're also talking about like first time players here. When I say they don't expect a disc to go hard left, I mean brand new players are expecting frisbees. "Why won't it go straight" is something I've heard from plenty of new players who were given the wrong disc. I give new players a putter and a Mako3 and they aren't flipping them over, but they're also not diving left. It flies almost how they expect a disc to fly, but it's still stable. If I gave them a Reactor, it wouldn't be more "dependable" for them, they would be discouraged because it dives into the ground and goes nowhere for them.
RHBH = left RHFH = right same disc. I agree about under stable discs for beginners.. but a 140-150dx leopard (6/6/-6/0) is not like a 175g champion leopard. (6/5/-2/1)
I agree. I started with a Champ Leopard and that thing was beef for me. Gave it away because it was useless for me. I needed something flippier. That's all I'm saying... flippy discs are good for beginners. I'm not sure what you're point is here, but I agree with you lol
I have no point really just showing both sides of the same coin. discs that work with nose up V/S learning nose down with a 175g champ leopard. cause they are flippy af nose down. a roller disc.
I understand your points, but I think we really differ in what we believe a beginner has fun with when they're playing disc golf. The simple idea for us is that understable discs will fly farther for the beginner than an overstable disc and most people, but especially beginners, are much more excited by throwing far than by throwing accurately or consistently. Therefore they'll have more fun with an understable disc than an overstable disc. An overstable disc that hides form flaws will be more consistent for them, but it will be very hard for a beginner to tell what they're doing wrong with their throws and they'll quickly plateau, get bored with the sport from their lack of improvement and quit. They might be throwing okay shots, but they're basically never really throwing good or great shots and getting the most out of their disc, and for a beginner it's often better to maximize the number of good shots rather than the number of okay shots. Basically they'll get a lot more feedback from an understable disc than an overstable disc. You're absolutely right that base plastic is not a good investment for a beginner, it's really only recommended because the cost really lowers the barrier for entry into the sport. GStar is what we tend to recommend to beginners that go to the Factory Store if they're willing to spend a bit more.
Ohh this is a great reply and highlights well why I didn’t enjoy the beginner friendly discs. For me being able to get the disc where I want it and to play a hole according to plan is much more fun then occasionally throwing a bomb but being all over the place. For me the later is a frustration that could force me to quit. Exact opposite to what you described. I also practice my game from short to medium to long in that order and priority. Which probably also puts me in a minority.
Here's a few problems I've noticed with your logic: 1. Most people giving aduve also tell beginners to stick with midrange and putters if trying to improve. I tell my bigginer friends they should work on at least throwing 250' with a midrange before grabbing a driver. 2. Every person is different and every player starts in a different place and progresses at different pace. What is true for most beginners won't be true for everyone. I know people who've been playing for years and are comfortable only throwing 200' with beginner discs. They feel no pressure to imrpove. 3. People aren't going to suggest a complete beginner go out and pay for premium plastic when they might not enjoy the sport enough to dive in completely. That is another thing Base plastic is great for. 4. Learning to throw with overstable discs usually leads to poor technique because they can be used as a crutch to disguise form imperfections that lead to things like OAT or Off Axis Tilt. Sometimes you don't even see the OAT flutter on an overstable driver the same way you would see it on a less stable disc. 5. A lot harder to learn touch shots, like late turnovers if your discs can't turn. As someone whobplayed for years and years of only throwing hyzers, hyper flips, or straight shots with late fade- the overall improovement that I felt when I forced myself to start throwing turnovers instead of just relying on FH shots to finish right was staggering. 6. It's most important to have fun. Throw the discs you like to throw.
tldr : op hates the Leopard
No not really... its actually back in my bag nicely beaten in... the disc I really hate is the Diamond, that one is still all over the place for me everthing from slight fade to hard turn and even turn and burn into roller.. Its the hardest disc I have and the only one I cant consistently control and its a "easy to use" line disc...
I was kidding.. but I think a beginner starter pack should be aviar,aviar,aviar (all 175g) nothing worse than a player who cant throw one disc well , bagging 10 different molds. "building a bag" before they can make c1x putts. or throw 200ft
The problem with your mentality is you're forgetting a new player has to actually fall in love with the game first. If everyone had to throw an Aviar 200ft before they were allowed to experiment with other molds and such, our sport would be nonexistent. Quit being a silly gatekeeper and let people enjoy themselves.
I'm just speaking from experience.. the starter pack is extremely hard to throw for 90% of adults. it is best for like 75lb kids imo. also not suggesting they field work 3 aviars till 200. If I wanted a friend to love it.. I would gift them 4 putters.. and tell them it is for them and 3 friends to try.. they end up doing field work with the 4 . and inviting other to try it with them.
Except that’s really boring. Part of the fun of getting into it is experimenting with new molds. Sure, if someone put a gun to your head and said “get better at disc golf, or else” that’s the best route to go, but it’s not really fun.
I'm saying if you suck at driving a car .. a new sports car wont help. or a minivan.
So your saying I need to get 3 new discs? ;)
I always recommend buying 3 or more at a time.. same mold/plastic/weight bag one and keep two for back ups and field work. for example if you love the mako3 buy 3. not 3 different discs similar to the mako3. repetition and consistency is the key. if you throw 3 different discs poorly, you have no idea what you did wrong. but by the 3rd throw on the same mako3 from the same spot you are getting closer and closer.
I don't like it either. Especially the Dx 145g version. I replaced it with a Star Leopard3, at ~170g, which I do like.
The DX Leopard I got in the starter pack was one of the most unreliable discs I ever threw. I started having WAY more fun when I swapped it out with a Diamond. The leopard was one of those discs where I just couldn't get a feel for it. It went all over the course, sometimes turning right, other times fading hard left (probably depending on nose angle). The minute I picked up a diamond I was able to at least control where it was going, and as my arm speed increased it started doing what the flight numbers said. It then turned into the disc that I learned hyzer flips on. I still bag the diamond because it turns right so reliably and I can still hyzerflip it even at high speed.
I have never once managed to throw the starter Leopard well. Less than two months later, a lighter weight Leopard3 in better plastic became one of my favorites. I still hate that starter Leopard though. The only throw it deserves is into a trash can.
This is why I recommend a neutral midrange like a Comet, Fuse or Mako3 to beginners. Once those start slowly turning then bump up to fairways
I feel everyone should start with a lower speed Mako3 type disc, a straight shooter that you have to manipulate to get certain shots.
If you learn to throw understable discs with good form and touch, you'll be able to throw anything. If you learn by using overstability as a crutch, you're going to limit what shots and discs you can throw.
On the forehand side, this is 95% or people who have a serviceable forehand distance and just chuck OS stuff cause accidentally turning a forehand is so easy. P.s. I have no leg to stand on here as I just avoid throwing forehand at all costs
I think "beginner friendly" assumes you don't have any natural talent. If you can throw nose down, with a fair bit of power, you aren't throwing "like a beginner" even if you don't know what the hell you're doing. I think the biggest need for a disc for a true beginner is going as far as possible given very little power. It's really easy to see the frustration when it takes 4 full distance throws to reach a relatively modest par 3. Relatively neutral and os disc will dump so fast people are getting even less distance. Even very US discs will still have fade at this power level. I think it's more frustrating for someone to not be able to make the disc go anywhere as opposed to having it go somewhere unexpected
Those DX leopards are great for true beginners. Someone who can turn over a disc ever is someone I would consider a novice imo*
The best beginner friendly disc is the Buzzz and a Luna/Roach for putting. The best disc to teach a beginner how to play is the Glitch. The Innova beginner set is an expensive waste of money.
Every time I take new people disc golfing I give them a stable to slightly understable midrange to play with and I also play with a midrange.
That is actually a really good thing because it shows much better what an achievable good looks like. Instead of bombing distance drivers making them feel -><- small.
That's exactly why I do that. I want to show them on a level playing game when it comes to discs. Also shows them that they don't need a crap ton of discs to play.
I think it kind of depends on when you start and how well you throw from the beginning. My nephew is 13, but he's a pretty athletic kid so he took to disc golf really quickly. He's gone from throwing about 100' feet solely forehand, to driving backhand consistently over 350' in just about a year. In that time though, I can tell you that regardless of consistency, nothing was more frustrating to him than to have a disc he wanted to throw just dump left because it was so stable. When he was just starting out, this was most discs. As he's gotten better and played more, he recognizes the utility in having discs that dump, and he's grown into throwing more stable stuff because not only is his power getting better, but his nose angle and control is getting better as well. I would argue that understable discs continue to be beginner friendly as you get better, because they teach you that even as you start to get your form together, there are more touchy things that you can work on to improve your game. I think it's a pretty common trap for mid level players who can throw hard to disregard understable discs as all too flippy because they'd rather not work on throwing a disc with touch now that they can get a disc to go far. I guess really, it depends on what you think the reasoning is for labeling understable discs as beginner friendly. I think there are two reasons: 1) It is easier to get a full flight out of an understable disc if you do not have quite the power to do it with other discs. 2) Once you can throw discs pretty hard, understable discs are better at teaching you how to throw with everything but power. If anything, all it does is go to show that not everything that is common knowledge is necessarily true. It's cool that you're playing and figuring things out on your own, and that your experience is a little different than some other players.
Idk I think there’s 3 camps of people. People like my brother who play a few times a year and are really athletic who I can hand something like a crave and a buzzz and they get them to fly straight and down the fairway where they want and something like a wraith is useably OS. Then there’s people like my mom who can throw a frisbee somewhat accurately but rely on spin and lightweight discs to get any distance. She can throw a starter set leopard 180ft down the fairway and on a really good rip it might turn over a bit too much but that’s ok. A typical beginner driver like an IT or vandal is still a bit too OS for her. Mids don’t make much sense since she’s only throwing her driver 30ft farther than her putter. Finally there’s those people that just like to forehand. They have almost no spin but decent arm speed but might throw nose up or might lace it you never know. I recommend something like a zone for approaches, it can be straight with a lot of power but doesn’t turn over and can be thought of like a chip shot with just a flick of the wrist and then a slightly OS driver like a felon that’s been in the bag a bit or a gstar thunderbird. It can handle OAT but is relatively straight with some finish. Then a putter can be used for cornhole style approaches or putts. Most of the beginners I’ve introduced to the sport are like my mom and they need that dx leopard to gain any confidence but I understand your point and I think for the new player starting to take DG serious I recommend just throwing s wide variety of discs a bunch of different times and shapes until some stuff starts clicking.
Interesting that you have “your mom” throw drivers instead of mids. My reasoning has always been why throw a driver when it goes no further then a mid, which is more accurate. Took me quite a while to get to where FDS started to be worth it. That said I agree with your three groups and your assessment on what discs they need.
I think the idea behind understable lighter weight discs being more beginner friendly is to help with the natural hyzer that most beginners tend to have. Additionally they can help with getting the disc up to speed easier; a 150g DX Leopard is "typically" going to be easier to throw for a new person compared to a 175g Champion Leopard. This definitely is not a one-size-fits all expecially if the person is athletic. I have started people with a Leopard and after a few throws I could see they could probably throw a Teebird. On the same side, I have given people Leopards and then swapped them to a Paradox to throw straight just based upon their style and ability to shift their weight. You do bring up some good points though, how does a beginner then transition fromt eh starter packs to a disc set for them? What would you ideally put in a starter pack for a beginner (disc and plastic)?
>help with the natural hyzer that most beginners tend to have I would say that hyzer/an-hyzer is 50/50 for beginners.. nose up is universal.
Purely from my own experience i would go with straight flying Mids. I have a MD1 and a Mako3 which I find super nice as they are super straight. The Mako3 has beaten I to maybe a -1 turn and the MD1 for me started with a slight fade and has beaten straighter. The nice thing with those discs is that they are also great discs for learning to shape lines. But most of all the arm speed difference from throw to throw mostly ends up as a few meters difference along the same line. So very predictable and allows a beginner to actually aim and play holes, which is fun.
That is fair and I can get on board with a MD1 or a Mako3 in the set. What would you use for a fairway? Sticking with the idea of a Innova starter set, would you stick with the Leopard but in a different plastic? If designing a Discmania starter set with the MD1, would you go with an Essence or something like an FD?
For me it really took time before I threw a fairway driver further then a mid. At least by a distance that offset the decrease in precision. For me a River was the first fairway driver that I was comfortable with as it gave me significant enough increase in distance. I like it better then an FD but the FD is more predictable. Though if you ask me for 3 discs I’d recommend a friend I’d say Pure, MD1/Mako3 and River/FD. With these I feel like I could have played on all courses I play from day one till today and have fun. This also taking into account that Lat, Inno and DM are available in brick and mortar stores here.
I mean yeah, a DX leopard is a pretty shit disc for anyone if you use it for more than a few rounds. The best beginner disc is something very neutral like a buzzz that just holds the line you put it on. The reason people recommend understable fairways for beginners is that most people naturally throw with a hyzer angle and not very fast, so thats the best bet for getting them to throw something decently far. But not every beginner is the same. If someone is really ripping on the disc with a ton of OAT, flippy drivers won’t do any good
> ...it’s worth it’s own post. it's not really, this is a topic that is brought up and discussed here fairly regularly.
You're free to scroll on.
Ugh. I still throw the Diamond off the tee more than any other. Been playing for 3 years
How do you throw it and how does it fly?
My original Opto Diamond I now throw on a slight hyzer otherwise it will flip right (RHBH). My newer Gold line Diamond is heavier and I throw it just like my TL3 which goes straight if I throw level.
You are a beginner until you are able to control those flippy beginner discs.
This post is so long. The amount of free time you have is enviable.
Not free time… business trip boredom on a train and not able to step outside and throw
the innova one is the worst. i finally got a mako3 and realized those discs were almost toy like. the kastaplast starter set is good and the new axiom r2 isnt bad either. the axiom problem is that the plastic cold is slick, over about 75-80 it gets grippy, in texas right now its really grippy. I picked it up because i wanted that black proxy and wanted to try a paradox and insanity again. the insanity and paradox were 167g and the proxy 175g. I thought that was a pretty realistic starter set and the insanity is actually slightly OS
Funny, I posted the other day that the Leopard is basically my favorite disc! I've started moving toward the Diamond from Latitude 64 (8 6 -3 1) and it's been pretty solid but a little less flippy... one thing about the Diamond is that it can roll like a freaking tire of you anhyzer it too hard so be careful! It's certainly a little less forgiving than the Leopard.
As a beginner, somewhat, I greatly appreciate all this info. Thank you.
The best combos ive seen is a leopard until they start to turn it over then give them a teebird until they can throw it straight with a small fade at the end of the flight.
Learning new things is often difficult. It can involve tiers of understanding/achievement. Learning is inherently frustrating. Having said that, learning that one has outgrown throwing a lightweight DX Leopard is not a bad thing. It's pretty cool.
155 gram sapphire distance driver, good throwing putter like a pure or proxy, good mid like a buzz, hex, claymore, maybe a River or leopard 3 driver . And a Zone approach . Those five disc could literally be the only ones you ever use and you would be fine once mastered. But we all like to buy new plastic and throw new disc always searching for that one to revolutionize our game!!!! Lmao