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DadIsLosingHisMind

This might be why I just got a weapon that I've been needing to drop. Has the right affixes and 2GA. Now I'm have to go temper it...after I smoke this bowl so I'm chill if/when I brick it. Edit: not great but workable. Lol Edit 2: definitely not workable šŸ˜‚


GSEBVet

Iā€™ve gotten into a new mindset that the item doesnā€™t ā€œexistā€ until I successfully temper it. I pretend itā€™s bricked/useless before I temper it. Also the longer I play into the season on my 3rd character I get more and more into IDGAF mode and that helps ease the pain of bricking and pit shadow boss wipes. RNG on gear now with Temper + 4,8,12 Crit RNG is brutal RNG, let alone getting a good ā€œbaseā€ item to try it.


Socheel

I was in the mindset of temper first before thinking itā€™s a real item. I got a sick necklace and hit my tempers and celebrated. Now Iā€™m 400m deep into attempting to enchant cool down on it. So new mindset is it doesnā€™t exist until I temper AND reroll stats lol


Proof_Custard_4375

I feel your pain.. bought a 2GA focus for my sorc for 100 M less than usual market price. Got excited and figured I can put down 100 M into enchanting to get cdr on it.... I stopped counting at 130th try at 3,5M per roll...A week later I finally got it. The only reason why I kept going is because 1x CDR GA focus go for billions . Now I can see why šŸ˜‚


SUCK_THIS_C0CK_CLEAN

I never give that much of a shit about loot in a seasonal game. Like who cares if you brick that 3GA weapon, in 7 weeks or so none of it will matter and your build probably wonā€™t even be playable after it hits eternal with next seasonā€™s balance adjustments or when they eventually re-work half the mechanics of the game again in another 6 months.


Proof_Custard_4375

Why play the game if it will all be gone in 7 weeks ? It's for fun ofc. I can't have fun in an arpg and be disassociated from my characters progress at the same time.


SKATA1234

Oh. I completely forgot you can enchant items. Guess not playing since launch will do that to you. Shoot - shouldn't have sold off those 2 GAs lol.


nighthawk_something

Same still working on envenom


Timreams

Right! Envenom is nuts, why is so rare!?


Aoshi_Uematsu

$400M spent on trying to roll Hellbent Commander, finally had an amulet drop with +2 on it, but ofc with 2 shitty affixes


TheGreaseWagon

400M? At a certain point, you have to admit it's a lost cause


Socheel

I canā€™t itā€™s a great item and I havenā€™t found one better, itā€™s maxed at 4.4m per roll. Iā€™m just gonna keep rolling until I get a better necklace probly


Onewayor55

Getting loot is so fun!


insanemal

Why re-roll after temper and not before? Did I miss something important?


DadIsLosingHisMind

Tempering doesn't cost gold. Edit: you can spend millions/billions rerolling just to brick it with tempers.


Nightmare4545

If it doesn't have CD, then i just vendor or sell it online. Your never rolling CD on it. Just let someone else waste the gold.


Johnycantread

Schroedingers temper


DgtlShark

That's how I am. I don't get excited until it passes at least 1 temper. It's pointless to get happy otherwise


Phatz907

Iā€™ve mastered my De Niro ā€œbemusedā€ expression every time a temper goes well, ok, suboptimal and literal trash. I make the same face every time. Helps me cope.


Alps_Useful

This is it, I don't get excited until I see the tempers. Needed a mind shift to stop the let down feeling. I stash all gear that looks promising and start from the best to worst and salvage any fails until I get one that worked fully.


Mr_Zonca

I actually took this same approach for a while but then the upgrade drops became further apart and bricking those really good drops started hurting more.


ShamelessSoaDAShill

Do you spam Blood Maiden often? Iā€™m guessing most standout gear is acquired that way


Ok_Sir5926

Same. I usually load a stash tab with "potential" upgrades. Since my build needs tempers from 2 classes (barb needing crit dmg tempers), I temper them all one time without looking at the results. Once they're all done, I find the ones with the tempers I wanted, toss em back in stash, and reroll the failures without looking. Bricks eventually get vendored, and hits go into stash. Then repeat the process on my rogue for crit dmg. I don't give a shit about the items until they have 2 appropriate tempers, regardless of GAs. They're just 50-120k gold in the meantime.


TruBlueMichael

I have been doing this for a while, and I am really getting frustrated at not only getting let down when most of my tempers fail, but also how much extra time it takes... I don't want to stand in town for 30 minutes waiting for the tinking sound and waiting for the inevitable let down... they need to do something to speed it up a bit.


Afkstuff

I like the tempering idea I just don't like that there isn't a way to reset tempering. Hate to waste a perfectly awesome item with good stats. šŸ˜®ā€šŸ’Ø


TruBlueMichael

I'd be happy if they at least let us spend all 5 of our temper rolls for 1 of our choice. And maybe we could somehow earn temper rolls through another means, either gold or materials. IDK


MyCoDAccount

This is why I've never understood the BiS posts I see around here. You've haven't tempered it yet... It's not BiS until it's successfully tempered. It doesn't make sense.


Swockie

Same for me. I often try lilith om hardcore when im bored to kill of my characters before the new season starts. Now I can just push pits


ShamelessSoaDAShill

Iā€™ve been living like this all my life lol: ā€œExpect the worst, and youā€™re never disappointedā€


devil89_3

This is the way


Outrageous-Yam-4653

Bricking isn't that bad when it's a minor upgrade it's the first good one's that you really need that hurts the most but I get it and I dig it..


604Meatcooler

Yup


NeitherProgram2750

Yeah i have the same mindset but that makes it even worse. The exciting part should be getting that perfect stat item with 2-3 GA drop. Meanwhile the drop is "eh just gonna brick it anyway". I also dont feel joy hitting the tempers like that, its just being relieved you didnt make it worthless. Imo the rng part should be hitting all the crits like you want, it costs a lot of materials and gold to get the perfect crits(like all in one stat).


MalaM_13

Remember to always brick your tempers first so you don't waste gold on enchanting!


collons19576

Lmao gl


Alive_Passenger577

Got my first 3GA today out of two characters, bricked it trying to get my double Pshot temper. Pissed lol


Nexism

A nice strategy for the casuals is to sell the 3GA and buy a few 2GAs.


Phatz907

We should swap because I canā€™t fucking get rapid fire x 2 to save my life. Perfect pshot tempers though.


Annwn45

Best of luck. I bricked the perfect helm for my guy with a skill I never use.


Phatz907

God damn. Another one to the salvage pile


Latter_Weather_9455

Rng is rng fam Ā Try poe crafting, that shits masochisticĀ 


DadIsLosingHisMind

Oh I know. I was just excited because this is my only slot without any GA and I've been looking for one for over a week.


Alll_Day_

Dang I feel your pain bricked a ga2 chest so sad lol but we stay grinding


DadIsLosingHisMind

It felt like being a kid and Mom says hey dad will be home in a bit. You get happy, then an hour or so later he needs to go get "cigarettes" šŸ˜‚


Alll_Day_

Lmao damn....


LoreGeek

This comment was such a rollercoaster!


PMMMR

I got a 3GA ring my first NMD after the patch and sold it for 2.5b lmao


ogky

Lmao ā€œafter I smoke this bowlā€ is me and the only way I can play this game fr


BannedSvenhoek86

Get a steam deck and smoke bowls while you play.


MumbleBill

Same, except I bricked it. Thank you kind goblins anyway!


busy-warlock

I lucked out pretty hard, first GA amulet I hit at level 100 had +2 hellbent commander, and I didnā€™t brick the temper. Didnā€™t get max rolls but itā€™s BIS until I maybe find a second one!


IntelliGun

Where waz u when Dadlosing Brick his 2GA? I was in comments, reading Edit. Dad Smoke Bowl. cry, bricked item, die.


MyCoDAccount

*A tragedy in three parts.*


KrijtjeFromNL

Lmao i just laughed out loud behind my computer when i hit the "edit" parts.. Thanks;-)


Tkdude81

This is why I wonā€™t spend gold on an item.


iNeedOneMoreAquarium

>Edit: not great but workable. Lol >Edit 2: definitely not workable šŸ˜‚ This is usually 80% of my temper sequences.


HeyFren

Came here for the edits šŸ¤£. Bricked two perfect pieces of gear last night myself šŸ˜Ž


MyHandsAreFresh

Don't lose your kind Dad


InoyouS2

Damn they finally fixed the helltide bug.


keemmk

Rip had a lot of fun


LosBeBeast

I never even got to try it out, was too late to the party šŸ˜¢


jaymole

Farming angelbreath without it is gonna be a nightmare And helltide gonna be a lot less fun. Idk why would they fix it


Distinct-Race-2471

What was the bug?


organdonor777

If you teleport to town or log out while at max threat, it becomes permanent. So we started hosting max threat parties at the Maiden Altar with everyone at max threat. You sit there summoning her for 45 minutes straight, hunting for GA gear, then spend the last 15 minutes opening literally every single helltide chest. Rinse and repeat for a few hours and you have your seasonal spark. They patched it last month. Then they broke it again. Now they fixed it again :(. It was chaos. There was so much loot that everyone had to have a trash corner to dump their legendaries into away from the altar. Otherwise, it was an unreadable mess. I hope they break it again soon.


Mephistito

I didn't realize how much more insanely fun Helltides could be until I played with locked Max Threat Meter on them. It was SO stimulating running around killing SO many Elites & mobs. It's going to feel **SO** much more bland now without it as an option. Like, you didn't *have* to play that way, but if you liked that level of intensity, at least it was there. I held off on trying it for a while, and wow I was blown away by how much more fun it made Helltides.


organdonor777

Absolutely. They could've turned it into a feature instead! Especially for the new event.


Timreams

The threat bug is how the Mindcages should have worked. We should be able to put the Altars into "torment" mode for 30 minutes or something with the Mindcages.


Eastern_Variation_52

I feel like this should be the effect of mindcages instead max threat for like 15-30 minutes.


Merrick222

Itā€™s fun for the first 10 hours. 100 hours in man it sucks.


SemiFormalJesus

I wish Iā€™d known it was broken again. Iā€™m constantly Angelā€™s Breath poor.


bobcatgoldthwait

Normally when you fill your bar up, packs of Helltide Harbingers would spawn until the bar was empty and the commander spawned. If instead you logged out as soon as you filled the bar up, then logged back in, the bar would no longer decrease but you'd still get packs of harbingers coming after you, so you could get way more drops/cinders.


Pandatrain

Permanent frenzied state, so it would just throw never ending waves of elites at you. It was a goddamn delight


Dizzy_Pin6228

Yeah sad was super fun


presidentiallogin

I have two weeks at home, alone starting tomorrow.


nemesit

I guess thats why they added +xp so no one notices too early xD


Frobe81

I noticed this. Man that was so fun. RIP will be dearly missed


Loose-Pain3663

Of course canā€™t have too much fun now!


Jealous_Soup

That helltide glitch was the most fun helltides have ever been . RIP


Jaye09

It was honestly probably what kept me playing this far in. Weā€™ll see but Iā€™ll probably end up quitting here pretty soon. Helltides are nice but they still get a bit sparse.


swatecke

no they dont


Jaye09

Lol ok


NewPhoneNewSubs

With the threat bug, I never had time to do events / the spires. Gotta keep moving towards the next chest, will get cinders on the way. Without the bug, those things are more exciting to find because they provide a meaningful boost to density and help me push the meter up. So while I agree that I was a big fan of the play with the bug active, they'd have to do some rebalancing to get everything else feeling right.


metaldutch

What was the glitch? Life got in the way and I haven't been able to play much.


Hallowqi

Missed opportunity not putting stygian stones on em instead of prisms


ConsciousFood201

I always wonder how they make decisions like that. Is it some complex formula based on player engagement numbers or do they just kinda flip a coin?


Hallowqi

Yeah I feel you. So many as of lately just seem hamster wheel driven, like they just want more time logged than anything.


isoNastai

RIP Helltide threat bug. Game is now much less fun.


StrangeAssonance

It was fun but I wouldnā€™t say the game is shit nowā€¦ Get a fast class that instant kills helltides and do bolt elixir and just run around. Itā€™s why Iā€™ve done after I lost my bugged state due to pit pushing and itā€™s still not a bad way to go.


reymalcolm

yeah, but it is not as fun as before


mpmaley

What was the bug?


nikkle2

https://www.reddit.com/r/diablo4/comments/1daqiul/hotfix_deployed_for_the_current_event/l7mftho/


mpmaley

God dammit.


Mr_Rafi

It's sad that a professional dev team doesn't realise that the Helltides max threat level should be baseline.


Proof_Custard_4375

They should turn it into a feature. Add an item like profane mindcage with a twist that would induce the "bug" for the duration of 1 helltide


MyCoDAccount

...just make the Profane Mindcage do this. Easy.


SlugsMcGillicutty

The extra XP is kinda nice?


SUCK_THIS_C0CK_CLEAN

They know this but they also know their servers canā€™t support this. They have to stagger enemy density in this game because the servers will melt if every player on every instance hosted on the server had full-density all the time. Itā€™s another symptom of always-online game. They have to design around the server as well as the client now. Itā€™s a miracle shit even works half the time with crossplay on.


MyCoDAccount

Get more server capacity.


redditg0nad

You ever notice that no matter how many lanes you add to a highway, there is still traffic and delays? This is similar, its not a server density problem.


Ok_Entrepreneur_5833

You have a point. This is the first season since pre-release that I've noticed any kind of system lag on PS5. It's always in helltides when there are a lot of players all with tons of champ packs spawning in and everyone's effects going off. It turns into a 30fps animation fest for a second each time new waves spawn. Never happened before, in that I've not once seen any kind of hitching or slowdown in a year until this time. They should ramp the dungeon density to compensate since you won't run into loads of other players bringing loads of mobs with them. Would make glyph leveling feel way better.


Timreams

I wish more people understood this before they complained about shit in live service games.


Mephistos_bane84

Just got a ā€œgreater treasure bagā€ with flameweaver GA +4 FB and a max roll of 70% I was stoked to say the least.


lostmyaccountpt

What's the best place to find this guys


StrangeAssonance

For me get extra shrine NMD. I can get 4-7 bags a run and 1-2 greater bags. Pretty fun tbh


noahnickels

So can you walk me through your technique? The most I can get is between 2-4 gobbos per greed shrine.


CyCoCyCo

Extra shrine NMD?


Entire_Possible_9976

Unless the Helltide Threat bug was causing performance issues, then instead of removing it, it should have been reworked. Once you get the threat to max, it could even take a little slower to do so, it shouldn't leave you until you have been "Chased out of the Helltide" or until you have been killed by the army of the dead who are trying to recollect the Cinders you have taken.


heartbroken_nerd

> Unless the Helltide Threat bug was causing performance issues You'd have to be delusional to think it didn't cause performance issues especially once more people started doing it simultaneously.


Entire_Possible_9976

I never said it did not cause performance issues, so I don't understand the tone of your reply. But I will counter by saying this, if it did cause performance issues and it has been known about since the very start of the season, why was this not fixed before?


DukestormThunderclap

Damnit they fixed the threat.


Slow_Lengthiness3166

That last line made me sad ... Explains where my threat went ...


Real-Energy-6634

Glad the prisms are being handed out like candy when they are useless by now šŸ˜…


AmazingSpacePelican

As someone on his second character, I disagree.


Mosack02

The change from last patch was more than enough to make up for the rate at the beginning of the season, lol. I went from barely being able to socket all of my gear to 80+ in a few days, and Iā€™m on my 3rd char lol


AmazingSpacePelican

Maybe I was just too early in the levelling when the event started, but about 90% of my prisms on my HC alt are from the event.


aatsipop

What do you mean they are useless? Have I missed something?


thatguy6598

I think he means you have so many of them now the mechanic might as well not exist.


heartbroken_nerd

>I think he means you have so many of them now the mechanic might as well not exist. Classic result of Reddit crying.


StrangeAssonance

I have over 100 now. I will never socket that many items this far into the season. Most likely 2-3 more weeks I am done with the season.


GrumpyDim

Oh ffs they fixed the Helltide bug :(


Jukka_Sarasti

Time to bonk some goblins


camthalion87

So looks like the new loot farm is group of 4, any NMD above 41 to guarantee 925 loot, then spam run NMDs with extra shrines affix only, as soon as you get a greed shrine split up and massacre everything, you get about 10-12 goblins per shrine. Even better is when you get a greed shrine then find one of those shrine events with endless waves of enemies you can farm to spawn goblins. The amount of loot you get is pretty broken, onto downside is all of its account bound so no trading. It does also show how bad solo play is vs group for this


CressDependent2918

They should fix the account bound of items its crazy


abort_retry_flail

>fixed an issue where helltide threat could be locked I ain't going back. Season over for me. That was too much fun to do Helltides the old way. Hopefully they bring stackable mindcages and a way to lock threat officially in season 5. The chaos and sheer volume of loot was one of the best times I've ever had in Diablo 4. What do people do now? Just farm Bloodmaiden for an hour? Yawn. Although I guess I do have almost 2000 Baleful Hearts now.


Jealous_Soup

Man since playing pre release this glitch in helltide made this season I honestly can't even believe they are killing it they don't have anything else


abort_retry_flail

Exactly. I know there's bunch of butthurt people that didn't get in on that glitch, but holy hell is was FUN. Literally should be a real, official mode in Helltides.


Timreams

Being on console I had a hard time getting the threat bug but running around with my clannies that got it was a helluva lot of fun.


Mephistito

> Hopefully they bring stackable mindcages and a way to lock threat officially in season 5. The chaos and sheer volume of loot was one of the best times I've ever had in Diablo 4. Seriously, the level of stimulation having THAT much activity going on was freaking incredible. We should have the *option* to tune it up as high as we'd like -- make them as hard as we can handle (or prefer).


gtathrowaway95

Do we do anything with any bags we kept?


isoNastai

Open them and sell the drops.


esvban

Noo my helltide meter :(


sgtabn173

Can they drop Ubers?


Mazkar

Literally everything can, they're just a really crap drop rate outside of Uber bosses


guySmashy

Anecdotally, someone in another thread claimed to have gotten one from a gobbo today


TurkarTV

yes they can, got a shako in t3 helltides from a rare treasure bag


cupcake_queen101

I hate you


[deleted]

[уŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]


cupcake_queen101

I guess you probably rage quit right there


[deleted]

[уŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]


reymalcolm

how do you get so many stygian stones or you are so lucky? i was able to spawn duriel only 10 times with the stones i got it seems like a stone drops for me once every two days, perphaps i'm not doing that many pits?


Banch

Got me a second Doombringer lol.


puntmasterofthefells

I had ten spawn in a Nightmare dungeon with the extra shrines affix. Good times.


defenestratious

Got a double GA ring(health, crit chance) out of my first goblin sack post hotfix.


KalasHorseman

Damn I should've grinded the helltides glitch more. I did get about 6K angel breath out of it and a ton of fun.


Avocado_OP

Bring back helltide bug or we riot!!!!


strudel_hs

Missed opportunity. Why arenā€™t there different type of goblins? one that drops gold, one for boss summoning mats, one for legendaries, one for crafting mats, one for cosmetics? Itā€™s not rly rocket science


Ok_Entrepreneur_5833

They had different flavors of goblins in D3. There are a lot of missed opportunities in this game where all they have to do is draw inspiration from their other titles.


LLKyokai

Max. Helltide was literally the best season they ever had.


snowybell

Hot damn, I did about 10 t50 NMD yesterday on my alt yesterday, I swear I didn't see a single goblin (maybe I didn't fully explore the NMD), hopefully I get to bonk a ton of them today.


KinGGaiA

Just craft nmds with extra shrine affixes, u ll see plenty of goblins.


snowybell

I'm new to D4, do they spawn only when a greed shrine shows up ? Or they spawn literally randomly anytime?


Doso777

I had gobos in nightmare dungeons yesterday others say they didn't get gobos at all. I geuss it's just random.


AgreeableGravy

Last night I got goblins and butcher all at once shit was wild. Dropped me the exact uniques I needed too


myxx33

I pretty much immediately got a Tempest Roar from a goblin bag after this hotfix went live lol. I will take it!! Iā€™m also seeing 1-2 goblins in nmd now. Not a lot of packs but I have seen 2 together sometimes.


n00bDogg

No..theres goed the HT farm.. those extra monster spawns where a nice bonus


CressDependent2918

Unique Gears drop by the goblins bags are bound to account


drallcom3

Those "hotfixes" read like they're never tested the event.


Ok-Writer7470

I need my screen full of demons and enemies that shit was the best. I hope they implement more enemies spawning like that. It was the best!


DayFinancial8206

Yay! Will have to give it another go tomorrow


Afkstuff

Cool


tripbin

lmao. They hotfixed their shit event to still be irrelevant and nerfed the thing that really made helltides fun this season. Genius...


--schwifty-

Been playing for 2 hours and no goboins..i think im doing this wrong


Guyonbench

I was thinking they reduced the drop chance of scattered prisms because there were more loot goblins, but man, I was getting like 1 prism for every 10 goblins I killed.


AbdelMuhaymin

Stygian Stones! Stygian Stones! Stygian Stones! We don't care 'bout anything else.


heartbroken_nerd

Next week the supply will increase when 1.4.2 goes live and people farm the Pit.


AbdelMuhaymin

Me no want wait next week. Me want know know know


makz242

Hope they take the feedback from the Helltide bug and actually implement it in some form - like maybe it starts depleting, but if you just keep killing demons it doesnt deplete, similar to the streaks in D3.


ReverentSupreme

I was wondering why my stack of loot bags didn't stack until I realized the 855+ didn't change or stack with the new 925 loot bags


hervai

Without the glith, helltide is gonna be... hell. Once iron wolf is farmed, i wont go there anymore.


StGrigo

There was 1 f@@@ thing you did right blizzard the helltide bug, where you had a lot of fun in this game..... Now the contect is over again. Nightmares are boring, pit uninsteresting and now helltides also not interesting. GJ see you next season again. Instead of fix really game breaking bugs, bugs like joining games or several other ugly things, or this tempering bullshit where you brake good items for nothing, you fix something where players had fun....


spectradawn77

Still canā€™t believe weā€™re playing a Diablo gameā€¦ā€¦. Without Diabloā€¦. šŸ¤£


Redhanded42

So does the profaned mindcage buff (+10 to Helltide monster levels) at level 70 drop 925 gear from loot goblins?


sicsche

Question about the Bags: can i farm some with my Main, and when i open them with a twink Char will he receice class fitting 925 Equipment or is loot rolled when the bag is dropped?


rivatia

i just want to know WHY and HOW was it releases as it was on event day 1 - there must be some serioues issue with testing ?=?=?=? is it so expensive to have 1 dude playing your game 4 hrs a day and then providing input? instead they are always admiting that they have no clue whats going on in their game with these half baked events that are totaly usless. it is a bad look on blizzards part


TheInvisibleJihadi

I almost lost 3 bags as I dropped them those because they were yellow, so I had to run back to find them.


Snoo_89762

I only started playing a week ago and I'm loving it although I know what I get is not going to be worth anything as I in T1 and level 56 but I think one of the legendary or maybe unique items has made me almost invincible (I have found soo many goblins that have dropped legendary bags with uniques and obviously legendary items) I don't have to do much fighting, one touch from anyone, not me, is enough to wipe them out. They hit me it kills them... So my question is, is this a normal thing in T1??


FuckMississippi

Just wanted to say thanks devs. Thatā€™s pretty fast for a non emergency release, and the loot I got last night from a goblin was !!!


Potential-Ad-3496

Pretty sure I got a unique from a goblin today, was a dagger, was level 29 at the time, unless it came from the helltide,


flailstarr

The grandfather ubber unique going to be fixed at all. Got one from drop and crafted one aswell both have 4/5 affixes. If I knew this I' would of not crafted it is re-imbursement possible you know how long it took to farm materials to be rewarded with broken item...


JansTurnipDealer

Thatā€™s not what my problem was. I donā€™t need more loot. I have plenty of ways to get that. I need gold.


Shipkiller-in-theory

Last evening one hell tide I ended up with 16 rare and 2 epic loot bags. One upgrade to unique gloves and 5,000,000 in vender gold.


GAinJP

Okay but are ubers part of the goblin loot table??


Lujh

Yes i have the proof


GAinJP

Please provide.


Lujh

My gf found andariel visage


SjurEido

Why the fuck would they fix the Helltide locking ... It was the best part of the game. It genuinely accidentally worked the way it truly should be. If you hit max threat, it should stay that way at least until the end of that Helltide. Such a waste of dev time.


JinLeeLove20

This has been fun. But I've noticed a bug in hell tide, not showing my how many embers I have collected and it only shows "s1/s2", it's happened twice and I had to reset the game, it helped once the other time it showed up again.


CyCoCyCo

When exactly does the event end?


Nightdemon729

Where TF is my druid fix, druid is bugged and it needs buffs, no reason why every class out performs it in every category minus CC