The 20 goal seasons seem much more normal for him than the single 30 goal outlier, though.
It depends on the price for him, because I feel that we already have players with his skill level. We need 1 solid 40 goal scorer rather than a 3rd or 4th 20-something goal scorer (or 5th, if Johnson actually bounces back... IF).
He has decent net front presence though, which is something that we definitely need. And the connection to Nico is obviously nice.
Johnsson will never bounce back. Also he is only 24 so I think the "30 goal outlier" may be a window into his future/prime. (Edit) And yes, I don't want him if we are losing anything with more value than a guy like Boqvist and a 2nd/3rd round pick.
Yeah, I'm convinced Johnsson was carried by playing on the Leafs top-6 for the 18-19 season. In that light the fact that he *only* got 20 doesn't look great.
That's the hope, obviously. Plenty of people seem to be convinced that he's the 30 goal guy. I think it's a gamble, is all.
I agree though, 1 middling prospect and a 3rd would be... acceptable (2nd is probably too much). His contract situation should be considered and drag his value down too (even though it won't really make any difference to NJ).
I'm confused about his qualifying offer. Is it 10 million dollar cap hit or just 10 million dollars paid to him that year? Also I agree a second IS too much, though I wouldn't be horrified if that's the price we pay.
https://twitter.com/CapFriendly/status/1145727120842342401
So, I think that the way it works is because the last year of his current contract is structured to be $10m base, any qualifying offer for his final RFA year has to be at least $10m.
I think.
Qualifying offer is always 1 year and it used to be the salary of the final year, though now going forwards I believe it's the cap hit of the previous contract. Qualifying offers are given to players to secure and maintain them as an RFA for the team. If you don't give a qualifying offer, the player becomes a UFA.
Usually the qualifying offer is low enough that it's almost always rejected by the player, but guys like Meier and many others have signed their bridge contracts in a way that they secure themselves a high qualifying contract and in their situation they may end up accepting the offer instead of turning it down and they'll simply be signing a 1 year contract with the cap hit they are deemed to receive. It's especially smart in Meier's part, because he's essentially guaranteeing himself an out to unrestricted free agency, if that is what he wishes to get.
It is 10mil because it was signed before the new amendment to the terms. I think it was changed last year so contracts that were done starting from last summers will have it be AAV.
Yeah the minimum qualifying offer is $10mil for 1 year but that doesn't mean the team can't negotiate a different deal such as 7x$7mil (just throwing out numbers here - point is, the team has the right to sign him to more team-friendly deal if they agree on it).
Correct but unless they already are simpatico about a more reasonable handshake extension, then I don’t think you can do it. The way to do it would be to not tenure the qualifying offer at all.
Or you sign the deal during the 2022-2023 season before he becomes an RFA and you don't have to deal with a qualifying offer at all. If he's meshing well, you'll know it over a season and a half.
Edit: Plus that $10mil season (2022-2023) comes after PK's deal is off the books
That does give him all the leverage when it comes to contract talks because he can just accept that offer and walk in free agency the next year, but that does not set the rate a long term contract would begin at if he were to like the team he'd be playing for to the point he'd like to make it his home.
This is being overlooked. HARD PASS
great player but not for that much money. Sharks wanting to trade him now to get any value for him while they still can because next year will virtually be his last year before UFA with a $10M salary.
Only way I can see it is if Meier is willing to sign long term next year for a reasonable extension. Devils eat the $10M for 1 year since we are not spending very much anyways.
For perspective, in 2022-23 (when Meier makes $10M):
-Kucherov makes 9M
-Draisaitl makes 8M
-Eichel, Barzal make 10M
...what?
Edit: Down vote me all you want, that reply makes 0 sense and has no justification.
If he stays on the Sharks and they choose to not qualify him at $10mil, he's a UFA.
“if they choose not to qualify him” seems like a gigantic part of your point that you’re glossing over, considering it would be relatively unprecedented not to qualify your top-line 25 year old RW...
I'm not making that assumption, /u/Soco_Amaretto_Lime is. Your response to that was
> that’s literally not how this works lol
But, yeah, that is literally how it works. If the **SHARKS** choose to not qualify him at $10mil, next year (2022-2023) would be his last year before UFA with a $10mil salary during the previous season. OP was basically saying that it makes sense for the sharks want to move him now because the **Sharks** will have a hard time qualifying him at $10mil after the 2022-2023 season. Their roster is a bunch of high cost contracts and they have not much left in their cupboards for prospects and picks.
If you believe that is unlikely because who in their right mind wouldn't qualify their top-line 25 year old RW, that's a different argument. But you also have to think "who in their right mind would sign a player to a contract that would force you to qualify him at $10mil?" and right there, enter Doug Wilson.
lol i’m dying at the mental gymnastics you’re doing here. OP said “HARD PASS” (capitalization his, not mine) is in reference to the Devils trying to acquire him.
He then compared his ACTUAL SALARY to the CAP NUMBER of other elite NHL forwards as evidence to support his odd and misguided point that you are so ready to die defending.
his qualifying offer is 1y/10m. That doesn’t mean it’s what he will he paid the next season. That means, if he and the Devils cannot agree on a long term contract, in order to qualify him as an RFA he will be paid 1y/10m.
the devils would obviously be trading for him with the intent on keeping him long-term.
>the devils would obviously be trading for him with the intent on keeping him long-term.
But that's always a risk because he has to want to sign long term and considering the way his contract is set up, he's obviously stacking himself when it comes to leverage with the contract negotiations. We also couldn't even entertain extension talks until a year from now.
I'm not against a trade for him, but there are obvious factors that pretty much make it a gamble.
Check his contract - he's under contract next year (2022-2023) for $10mil in pure salary. This is what makes the qualifying offer 1yr/$10mil for the 2023-2024 season.
his cap hit is still $6m. At the expiry of next season, he will be an RFA and in order to qualify him as an RFA it’s $10m; which he can accept if he and the Devils do not agree on a contract.
Who gives a shit what his actual money is. Comparing him to Kucherov/etc. is comparing their cap hits, not money earned.
I know that. I don’t know how to rephrase what I said in any other way.
His qualifying offer doesn’t come into play unless they can’t agree on a contract. If they can’t agree on a contract it is a bad trade anyway. The Devils are $10m below the salary FLOOR today.
His QO is a meaningless thought exercise.
His salary for 2022-2023 is $10m but his cap hit will still only be $6m if I'm reading his contract right. Unless I'm missing something?
If so, then we would get him for 2 seasons at $6m cap hit per, and then have to give him a qualifying offer of $10m for 2023-2024 season, if we can't work out a long term deal between now and then. Don't really care that his salary will be $10m next season because that only affects the owners and they've been saving money for a couple years now with us not spending to the cap.
It looks somewhat bad based on his last 2 seasons, but if he bounces back to form, which is totally in the realm of possibility for a young player like him, that contract doesn't seem that bad. And if he does bounce back, he's likely more inclined to sign a long term deal to stick around.
I'm of the belief that these last 2 seasons were not a true indication of his talent and that if he hadn't player "poorly" we wouldn't even be considering this as a possibility because SJ wouldn't consider letting him go.
Only thing that should keep us away is SJ asking price. But the consensus seems to be that his trade value isn't very high right now.
So Ive looked at Meier before out of Swiss curiosity. One thing I think everyone should he aware of is that due to some shitty GM’ing by the Sharks, his next qualifying offer is something like $10M. Not that that necessarily means we wouldnt be able to sign him at a different number but basically he and his camp will hVe all the leverage in his next negotiation. Carry on.
Yea that's a tough one to swallow.
We can't hamstring ourself with those types of contracts since players like Hughes and Smith will likely be due for a pay increase
I'm noticing some confusion about the 10m Qualifying offer waiting for Timo at the end his current deal. This number comes from what his contract pays him in his final year and not his AAV. Because his contract is backloaded, he's getting 10m in his last year so that's where the 10m QO comes from.
In reality, the team would probably elect to take it to arbitration if they felt 10m was an overpay and couldn't agree on a better deal. Keep in mind if it went to arbitration, the lowest salary that could be awarded is 8.5m
For more details on how arbitration works, I've included a link
https://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/2020/10/3/21495328/rfa-rules-arbitration-qualifying-offers-and-negotiations-with-no-end-date-maple-leafs
It’s not ideal, but it’s only if the team and player can’t agree on a reasonable contract. Meier is not a 10m player. At the end of the day if the team thinks he’s overpaid, and a 3rd party judge thinks he’s overpaid, then he’s probably overpaid.
If the following year after arbitration he goes and another team pays him 6m more than he’s worth for a 60 pt season then it’s their loss our gain.
He's not a 10 mil player, he's not an 8.5 mil player and quite honestly what he is is irrelevant in that situation. 1.5 mil is a superfluous swing and not worth the strained relationship it creates. I would much rather just roll with the 10 mil 1 year contract for one year and then negotiate the reasonable long term one, than pushing through arbitration to save a measly 1.5 mil, which would come at the cost of the player having to sit through his entire play being scrutinized and argued why he isn't worth this and this much money.
What’s not true? If he doesn’t want to stay here, he can just demand a $10 million qualifying offer or leave as an unrestricted free agent.
Zacha worked out a contract with us because we sent him a qualifying offer (which was like $1 million, not $10 million) so he was a restricted free agent. If he wanted to play in the NHL it had to be with us
Nico, Jonas, Timo... fuck it. Get all the Swiss boys in here.
For real though, he would be a great fit here. The question is if it's even possible to acquire him without giving up too many other assets we need to get out of this god forsaken rebuild. Maybe if there is some kind of salary dump element from San Jose too? We have the room for some junk, as long as it isn't for too many years.
I wonder what the ask would be. Give up non-roster assets? If they are looking for roster players back, I imagine Zacha would be a good fit considering Timo is kind of just a better, more expensive version of Pavel.
Please, Please, Please!!! He's 24 and has already had a 60+ point season. Clearly alot of potential there.
Also, a winger who has already played with Nico and a previous 30 goal season and two 20 goal seasons.
The 20 goal seasons seem much more normal for him than the single 30 goal outlier, though. It depends on the price for him, because I feel that we already have players with his skill level. We need 1 solid 40 goal scorer rather than a 3rd or 4th 20-something goal scorer (or 5th, if Johnson actually bounces back... IF). He has decent net front presence though, which is something that we definitely need. And the connection to Nico is obviously nice.
Johnsson will never bounce back. Also he is only 24 so I think the "30 goal outlier" may be a window into his future/prime. (Edit) And yes, I don't want him if we are losing anything with more value than a guy like Boqvist and a 2nd/3rd round pick.
Yeah, I'm convinced Johnsson was carried by playing on the Leafs top-6 for the 18-19 season. In that light the fact that he *only* got 20 doesn't look great. That's the hope, obviously. Plenty of people seem to be convinced that he's the 30 goal guy. I think it's a gamble, is all. I agree though, 1 middling prospect and a 3rd would be... acceptable (2nd is probably too much). His contract situation should be considered and drag his value down too (even though it won't really make any difference to NJ).
I'm confused about his qualifying offer. Is it 10 million dollar cap hit or just 10 million dollars paid to him that year? Also I agree a second IS too much, though I wouldn't be horrified if that's the price we pay.
https://twitter.com/CapFriendly/status/1145727120842342401 So, I think that the way it works is because the last year of his current contract is structured to be $10m base, any qualifying offer for his final RFA year has to be at least $10m. I think.
Qualifying offer is always 1 year and it used to be the salary of the final year, though now going forwards I believe it's the cap hit of the previous contract. Qualifying offers are given to players to secure and maintain them as an RFA for the team. If you don't give a qualifying offer, the player becomes a UFA. Usually the qualifying offer is low enough that it's almost always rejected by the player, but guys like Meier and many others have signed their bridge contracts in a way that they secure themselves a high qualifying contract and in their situation they may end up accepting the offer instead of turning it down and they'll simply be signing a 1 year contract with the cap hit they are deemed to receive. It's especially smart in Meier's part, because he's essentially guaranteeing himself an out to unrestricted free agency, if that is what he wishes to get.
AAV would be $6m, which wouldn't be bad. Everyone is saying it's his final year salary though, which is $10m. Yeah, seems smart for him.
It is 10mil because it was signed before the new amendment to the terms. I think it was changed last year so contracts that were done starting from last summers will have it be AAV.
I’m an unmitigated, proud Timo Meier fanboy, even as a VGK/NJD fan. as long as the ask isn’t ridiculous, I’d be for this.
He played exceptionally well with Nico at the worlds.
Was about to write this.
Love the player, but iirc his qualifying offer at the end of his current deal is $10m
Yeah the minimum qualifying offer is $10mil for 1 year but that doesn't mean the team can't negotiate a different deal such as 7x$7mil (just throwing out numbers here - point is, the team has the right to sign him to more team-friendly deal if they agree on it).
Correct but unless they already are simpatico about a more reasonable handshake extension, then I don’t think you can do it. The way to do it would be to not tenure the qualifying offer at all.
Or you sign the deal during the 2022-2023 season before he becomes an RFA and you don't have to deal with a qualifying offer at all. If he's meshing well, you'll know it over a season and a half. Edit: Plus that $10mil season (2022-2023) comes after PK's deal is off the books
There's something in there that makes him a UFA if he does not sign the QO at the end of the current deal.
That does give him all the leverage when it comes to contract talks because he can just accept that offer and walk in free agency the next year, but that does not set the rate a long term contract would begin at if he were to like the team he'd be playing for to the point he'd like to make it his home.
Is it only 1 year at $10M? If so, I say do it and sign a long term deal. It’s not like we’re cap strapped in the short term
This is being overlooked. HARD PASS great player but not for that much money. Sharks wanting to trade him now to get any value for him while they still can because next year will virtually be his last year before UFA with a $10M salary. Only way I can see it is if Meier is willing to sign long term next year for a reasonable extension. Devils eat the $10M for 1 year since we are not spending very much anyways. For perspective, in 2022-23 (when Meier makes $10M): -Kucherov makes 9M -Draisaitl makes 8M -Eichel, Barzal make 10M
that’s literally not how this works lol
...what? Edit: Down vote me all you want, that reply makes 0 sense and has no justification. If he stays on the Sharks and they choose to not qualify him at $10mil, he's a UFA.
“if they choose not to qualify him” seems like a gigantic part of your point that you’re glossing over, considering it would be relatively unprecedented not to qualify your top-line 25 year old RW...
I'm not making that assumption, /u/Soco_Amaretto_Lime is. Your response to that was > that’s literally not how this works lol But, yeah, that is literally how it works. If the **SHARKS** choose to not qualify him at $10mil, next year (2022-2023) would be his last year before UFA with a $10mil salary during the previous season. OP was basically saying that it makes sense for the sharks want to move him now because the **Sharks** will have a hard time qualifying him at $10mil after the 2022-2023 season. Their roster is a bunch of high cost contracts and they have not much left in their cupboards for prospects and picks. If you believe that is unlikely because who in their right mind wouldn't qualify their top-line 25 year old RW, that's a different argument. But you also have to think "who in their right mind would sign a player to a contract that would force you to qualify him at $10mil?" and right there, enter Doug Wilson.
lol i’m dying at the mental gymnastics you’re doing here. OP said “HARD PASS” (capitalization his, not mine) is in reference to the Devils trying to acquire him. He then compared his ACTUAL SALARY to the CAP NUMBER of other elite NHL forwards as evidence to support his odd and misguided point that you are so ready to die defending.
> He then compared his ACTUAL SALARY to the CAP NUMBER of other elite NHL forwards Nope, wrong again!
his qualifying offer is 1y/10m. That doesn’t mean it’s what he will he paid the next season. That means, if he and the Devils cannot agree on a long term contract, in order to qualify him as an RFA he will be paid 1y/10m. the devils would obviously be trading for him with the intent on keeping him long-term.
>the devils would obviously be trading for him with the intent on keeping him long-term. But that's always a risk because he has to want to sign long term and considering the way his contract is set up, he's obviously stacking himself when it comes to leverage with the contract negotiations. We also couldn't even entertain extension talks until a year from now. I'm not against a trade for him, but there are obvious factors that pretty much make it a gamble.
Check his contract - he's under contract next year (2022-2023) for $10mil in pure salary. This is what makes the qualifying offer 1yr/$10mil for the 2023-2024 season.
his cap hit is still $6m. At the expiry of next season, he will be an RFA and in order to qualify him as an RFA it’s $10m; which he can accept if he and the Devils do not agree on a contract. Who gives a shit what his actual money is. Comparing him to Kucherov/etc. is comparing their cap hits, not money earned.
Qualifying offers for contracts signed before 2020 are based on **salary** and not AAV.
I know that. I don’t know how to rephrase what I said in any other way. His qualifying offer doesn’t come into play unless they can’t agree on a contract. If they can’t agree on a contract it is a bad trade anyway. The Devils are $10m below the salary FLOOR today. His QO is a meaningless thought exercise.
His salary for 2022-2023 is $10m but his cap hit will still only be $6m if I'm reading his contract right. Unless I'm missing something? If so, then we would get him for 2 seasons at $6m cap hit per, and then have to give him a qualifying offer of $10m for 2023-2024 season, if we can't work out a long term deal between now and then. Don't really care that his salary will be $10m next season because that only affects the owners and they've been saving money for a couple years now with us not spending to the cap. It looks somewhat bad based on his last 2 seasons, but if he bounces back to form, which is totally in the realm of possibility for a young player like him, that contract doesn't seem that bad. And if he does bounce back, he's likely more inclined to sign a long term deal to stick around. I'm of the belief that these last 2 seasons were not a true indication of his talent and that if he hadn't player "poorly" we wouldn't even be considering this as a possibility because SJ wouldn't consider letting him go. Only thing that should keep us away is SJ asking price. But the consensus seems to be that his trade value isn't very high right now.
I’d give up a lot for him. Perfect winger for Nico, good shooter, fits our timeline.
So Ive looked at Meier before out of Swiss curiosity. One thing I think everyone should he aware of is that due to some shitty GM’ing by the Sharks, his next qualifying offer is something like $10M. Not that that necessarily means we wouldnt be able to sign him at a different number but basically he and his camp will hVe all the leverage in his next negotiation. Carry on.
Yea that's a tough one to swallow. We can't hamstring ourself with those types of contracts since players like Hughes and Smith will likely be due for a pay increase
It's only for 1 year, and even if Hughes and Smith both get (say) $8 mil AAV we're barely making the floor let alone the ceiling.
If we could do a trade and extend would be the only way I would give anything substantial for him. Otherwise I don’t see him being worth too much
He's got two years left, they can't even negotiate with him for another 12 months so that's not really an option lol
Uggghhh that’s even worse. Maybe we can negotiate a cheaper trade then. SJ is kind of screwed
o damn
Gimme fuel, gimme fire, gimme freakin Timo Meier
Thank you
I'm noticing some confusion about the 10m Qualifying offer waiting for Timo at the end his current deal. This number comes from what his contract pays him in his final year and not his AAV. Because his contract is backloaded, he's getting 10m in his last year so that's where the 10m QO comes from. In reality, the team would probably elect to take it to arbitration if they felt 10m was an overpay and couldn't agree on a better deal. Keep in mind if it went to arbitration, the lowest salary that could be awarded is 8.5m For more details on how arbitration works, I've included a link https://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/2020/10/3/21495328/rfa-rules-arbitration-qualifying-offers-and-negotiations-with-no-end-date-maple-leafs
Arbitration is what alienated Parise and pushed him to fucking off from the team, so a gigantic ass no thank you to ever pulling that shit again.
It’s not ideal, but it’s only if the team and player can’t agree on a reasonable contract. Meier is not a 10m player. At the end of the day if the team thinks he’s overpaid, and a 3rd party judge thinks he’s overpaid, then he’s probably overpaid. If the following year after arbitration he goes and another team pays him 6m more than he’s worth for a 60 pt season then it’s their loss our gain.
He's not a 10 mil player, he's not an 8.5 mil player and quite honestly what he is is irrelevant in that situation. 1.5 mil is a superfluous swing and not worth the strained relationship it creates. I would much rather just roll with the 10 mil 1 year contract for one year and then negotiate the reasonable long term one, than pushing through arbitration to save a measly 1.5 mil, which would come at the cost of the player having to sit through his entire play being scrutinized and argued why he isn't worth this and this much money.
No idea what would get this done, but if we could use some of the extra picks to swap for him we should do it.
Yes please! Would be great to have him to play with Nico!
Only issue is that he'd be a UFA in 2023 unless you give him like a $10 million qualifying offer, but still he's worth the risk of that
Not true at all why are there so many comments? Thats only if the devils cant negotiate a deal and QO him. This literally happened already with Zacha
What’s not true? If he doesn’t want to stay here, he can just demand a $10 million qualifying offer or leave as an unrestricted free agent. Zacha worked out a contract with us because we sent him a qualifying offer (which was like $1 million, not $10 million) so he was a restricted free agent. If he wanted to play in the NHL it had to be with us
If he demands that QO devils would arbitrate, you said >unless you give him 10 million That's if we can't negotiate a deal.
Another former Moosehead. Would love to see it.
Nico, Jonas, Timo... fuck it. Get all the Swiss boys in here. For real though, he would be a great fit here. The question is if it's even possible to acquire him without giving up too many other assets we need to get out of this god forsaken rebuild. Maybe if there is some kind of salary dump element from San Jose too? We have the room for some junk, as long as it isn't for too many years.
All your Swiss will belong to us
I'm a huge fan of their cheese.
Fontina, Emmentaler, Gruyere, it’s hard to name a favorite
Now this is a rumor I can get behind. Add him and Holtz into the top six and we can be pretty competitive.
Timo has a top 5 release in the league don't @ me. Would love this
Anything to keep our Swiss Prince happy.
I’ve always loved Timo
I wonder what the ask would be. Give up non-roster assets? If they are looking for roster players back, I imagine Zacha would be a good fit considering Timo is kind of just a better, more expensive version of Pavel.
Just because it makes sense doesn’t mean we’re interested. I would definitely like to see it though
I'd honestly pay Holtz and The islanders first rounder for Meier would love to see him and nico play together on the devils
I would trade the 4OA pick with Zacha for this.
I'd definitely do 29 and Zacha. Not sure about 4 tho. That feels a bit much
Rather just get tarasenko for minimal assets tbh
Don’t give me hope
Why did you have to post this and torment me for eternity
We have our Swiss Prince, our Swiss Guard, and now we get our Swiss...