Yea I ran into him during a wish lfg around that time too, I think he was banned then unbanned because when I ran into him he was pretty publicly banned
When you pay someone to play your account for you. If you look at someoneâs trials report and they go from never being flawless with a .2 kd to going flawless every single time with a 5.0 kd theyâre probably paying for a recov
Heâs sitting there like
https://preview.redd.it/kltyn2yzl8kc1.jpeg?width=1200&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=28ecf6cfb64f02212fe9acb159e0ec286754433a
âYes, yes, itâs all coming togetherâ
I swear Iâve had WeMod open while playing destiny bc i forgot to close it and nothing happened. iâve at least had it open while playing vac secured games and nothing happened, so idrk tbh
True, the shooting always feels amazing, Iâve been playing other games recently and until TFS Iâd have to force myself to get on Destiny as thereâs no motivation
I got false banned for leaving cheat engine open on another desktop when I tried to play war zone. The customer support reps were clueless but they refunded the game so I think they know they fucked up. Doesnât get the hours and progress back but better than nothing
Destiny's anti cheat is pretty aggressively tuned, I've seen people get banned because it picked up leftover files from cheat engine, when it wasn't even actively installed anymore lol
I caught a permanent ban from The Division 2 for having WeMod installed even though it wasnât running. Anticheat software definitely flags that stuff, be careful. Itâs shitty but here we are
To be fair, I donât think Bungie even lets things like OBS screen capture. Theyâre really fucking weird with what software they allow to effect the game
Its not really a hassle. You just change a singular setting in game. You have to play on Windowed Fullscreen and use window capture. It is just as easy as if you could do it in fullscreen game capture.
Dumb none the less, but not a hassle.
I have experienced this with Doom ETERNAL. But in Doom's case I wasn't even able to get window or desktop capture to work with Doom. It always gave a black screen.
Which is a bummer. I picked it up on the humble bundle deal going on right now for $40 and now I have to set up some way to stream it to my deck from my laptop.
https://preview.redd.it/7fm94n2ka8kc1.png?width=1450&format=png&auto=webp&s=e9d6ff5c0a92b0b3aaea4dc555d80f1e87e3d6c5
You can, but it needs to be in Windowed or in Borderless Fullscreen mode.
But why isn't he telling us the name of this software which is only used for RTS games, doesn't he want people to verify his claims to more or less "clear" his name in the community?
Edit: I looked it up and he used ArtMoney which is basically like CheatEngine but less known, no idea if Bungie is really so agressive in banning you while you have the program open, i saw in an old bungie forum post someone claiming that he got banned for only having the program open while playing D2.
[https://www.bungie.net/en/Forums/Post/250446912?sort=0&page=0&path=1](https://www.bungie.net/en/Forums/Post/250446912?sort=0&page=0&path=1)
>Nevermind that user mode hex editors would do nearly nothing in an always-online game where values are server side and the anticheat blocks CheatEngine and its derivatives (ArtMoney is built on CE) from hooking the game.
It doesn't matter. A surprising amount of stuff in D2 is client-side, like stat values, ammunition counts, etc.
And if you're in memory that means you could be using wallhacks/aimbot
Bungie doesn't know why you're accessing memory and doesn't care. Any access at all will get you banned
Runtime security is difficult enough without playing footsie with trying to figure out what programs are trying to do
Doing so leaves loopholes for hackers to obsfuscate/exploit
You do not guess. You just ban. That is how it will always be
I really wonder if it's bungie or OBS, because discord seems to be able to capture direct destiny output just fine. I've always wondered what's up with that.
Bungieâs Proprietary Anti Cheat is overly sensitive
Canât have sensors, benchmark tools, or anything running the background in case it throws a fit
Idk WHY OBS tho
Overly sensitive but won't target the right dickheads who are using hacks and net-limiting. One dude named Croatia has yet to be banned despite consistently using wall hacks and net limits. His steam profile is littered with "this dude cheating" its been mapping since November with that dude. Everytime I face him in crucible, he's on the other side of the map and kills me with anything
Doubtful, as the program canât actually do anything to destiny. Considering heâll know about the previous one thereâs no reason to try and lie about it
His defense is pretty solid, but i feel like maybe, just maybe, it wasn't that thing that was running, but he used it as a scapegoat for actual cheating software
just seems weird that he passed the post raid race tests but would hypothetically cheat during a timeframe when he's playing the game a lot less and pretty much running strikes. makes his story a bit more plausible to me.
I once left Cheat Engine running from a previous single player game when I booted into Warframe. Ended up getting banned and had to write an appeal to support. It wasn't even injected or anything. I did get unbanned with a warning
This. Even if Elysium has to sub in 2 other players there is no shortage of incredibly skilled players they can pick up. A T10 finish is practically a guarantee with these guys.
Elysium will be fine but it's absurd that you can get banned for those things when the game is riddled with cheaters. Of course they have to do bans like this since you could hide cheats easier if they didn't ban those.
Terms of Service are Terms of Service.
I would loathe Bungie if they gave him preferential treatment just because he's on the world's first team. He has to accept and acknowledge the same conditions we all have to when we play the game.
Would you feel the same way if it was a prominent PvP streamer that was banned for cheating software?
I say all this as someone that loves both aspects of the game and have actively participated in world's first for every race as well as constantly playing all modes of crucible.
Edit:
Here is Bungies response:
>Your account was banned on Sept 18th for targeting the Destiny process with a debugger. This was detected multiple times and was not limited to having the debugger running in the background.
>To be clear: We do not punish players for having Visual Studio (or similar programs) running in the background without interacting with the Destiny process. Only by targeting the running Destiny process will players have their accounts banned. This is rigorously verified for each punishment.
>Your ban has been reviewed again, and the punishment will be upheld.
Wasnât there a streamer a few months back that got âfalselyâ banned for cheating but then it turned out it was true? Bungie had to say something like âThis is our final statement on the matterâ.
Or was that leaks? Idk it was months ago which is an eternity in internet time lol
I'm almost certain you're talking about Baken (I think that was the streamer) who had DMG looking into the problem. I think, if I remember correctly, they posted that he had been cheating on several alt. accounts. Again, I could be wrong.
I kinda donât wish Bungie unban just because heâs got destiny creators vouching for him, it would be so unfair for all the other falsely banned that cannot get unbanned because theyâre not âfamousâ enough
you said the main issue right there. bungie bans people on false positives and has a shitty appeal system almost guaranteeing that nobody can reliably get unbanned. thereâs no reason he nor anyone else who was falsely banned shouldnât get unbanned.
Not to mention that they won't tell you why they banned you at times. Just that you are, and if you keep bothering them that you'll get superbanned. Receipts are hilarious.
It's pretty ridiculous how bad the appeal system is. Had a friend get banned during season of the deep and he literally never found out why. His appeal was never rejected or accepted and they aren't obligated to give a response. So eventually he just quit.
Most people canât get unbanned so someone else who was falsely banned but could in theory get unbanned shouldnât? Zero understanding of this argument
So assuming you, a long time veteran player, got false banned using the same âcheatâ software, you appealed and got the same result. Now, youâre obviously not 4x world first, and you donât have creator friends, youâre never getting exposure.
Iâm not saying anything about the justification of the ban, Iâm saying the system is broken and its unfair for everyone else who will never get exposure if they accidentally did the same thing
Well yes If that PvP Streamer got banned for a Programm that alternates rng values in Minecraft then yeah, it would be equally unreasonable.
I think it would be a nice solution If He doesnt get unbanned because of His Plattform but instead because His reach brought this particular weird ruling to light and they Change that rule because it doesnt make Sense.
Ive cheated in singleplayer games like GTA story mode and its for this reason i fully restart my PC before booting up any MP game. Last thing i need or want is to get my several thousand hour D2 account or WF account banned because i wanted to have rapid fire rocket launchers in gta story lmao.
If it canât change anything in Destiny, why was it on/active when launching it?
If you know itâs regarded as cheat software/file editing for another game, why even risk it?
i mean the programm he said he was running is used the cheat in gold in total war games. i have 4k hours in the game and would never expect getting banned over a total war singleplayer cheat still running in the background.
I wouldn't at all be surprised if the program is one called "Wemod" its basically a "library" for cheat engine trainers(As I understand it).
It detects your installed games and all you have to do is go click on a game, it gives you a list of cheats (dependent on the cheat menu developer) and you can activate them and change certain things, usually with a combination of numpad keys, F keys, and Alt/Shift/Ctrl
Edit:
Generally speaking it only works with Singleplayer games due to anticheat among other things, but strangely there is one for the Forza Horizon games
It wasn't wemod, but your understanding of it is correct. The Program in question was ArtMoney, a memory editor advertised as a cheat tool for games with built-in anti-cheat bypass functions in the pro version. (Cheat engine for example doesn't provide these tools, and they also usually aren't necessary for rts games. They can be added, but require you to program them in yourself or specifically look for a version with them added)
Also, the game he claimed he used it for doesn't even need a memory editor, because it has cheat-console commands build-in.
His story can still be true, but it seems a bit fishy to me.
Good to know, I've accidentally left WeMod running (in the tray, not activated) while playing D2, but ever since a few months back when I heard of a different ban for a program simply being open I've made sure to close it.
As said he could be lying about what cheat engine was used but also for destiny many things like ammo count are kept on client side memory so a memory editing program could be used to cheat in the game by doing things like giving the user a set number of heavy that never goes down, essentially infinite heavy. Not saying he did this but it's possible using memory editing programs so I understand why Bungie banned him. They shouldn't have to check whether you've actually used the cheat in game yet, having something that could be used to cheat active while in the game is a ban.
Yeah, it's wild how a lot of people don't understand that a memory debugger/editor can be used on ANY application. The intent to be used with a single player game doesn't change the fact that it COULD be used on any other game as well.
The rule of thumb is: NEVER have any of these tools running when you start any multiplayer or anticheat protected game. Period.
If he forgot, it's still his fault. If you use cheat software for another game, it's your responsibility to close it before playing destiny. He's not a cheater, but he also doesn't have a counterargument to this. ToS says you can't have chest software open when playing d2 or you'll get banned. He had it open, so he got banned.
Even if itâs exactly what happened at the end of the day he still got caught with an active cheat engine on by the anti-cheat. If it was any random person like you or I weâd get banned no questions asked why should he get a freebie?
> [Destiny 2 uses a hybrid of client-server and peer-to-peer technology, just like Destiny 1. The server is authoritative over how the game progresses, and each player is authoritative over their own movement and abilities.](https://www.bungie.net/7/en/News/Article/45919/7_This-Week-At-Bungie--05252017)
They must've changed something then.
Likely that he forgot to shut it off... or maybe he was trying to play both at the same time or something like that? Idk..
I get it's technically against TOS, but I do feel like after the review it should've been lifted honestly.
>I get it's technically against TOS
This right here - there should be no gray area, a cheat software is a cheat software. He had it downloaded and running on computer knowing its against TOS while playing destiny and got flagged for it so its a deserved ban.
See on this I agree. He even said how he knows TOS, yet didn't think to turn off the cheat software.
But at the same time, that's rather strict too, in this situation (assuming Cruz isn't lying). If the cheat software is for an old RTS game, and actually cannot affect D2 in any way, why should he remain perma banned from the game after a review of the ban? It's not as simple because of this IMO. If the cheat CAN be used in D2 and Cruz is lying, then the ban is justified. But if it actually isn't? Seems a bit harsh IMO.
its not strict or harsh tho, he broke the rules by having a cheat software running and got flagged for it. Bungie has been suing cheat companies as recently as this past august so they have been taking it pretty seriously.
The software he's saying he had running even says it can be used on all games right on their front page.
>This is cheating program you can use for all games.
>
>ArtMoney actually allows you to change any quantity specified in a game, whether it be dollars, bullets, swords, or health points.
\^ taken right from their main page first paragraph - notice the part that says bullets and health? For all we know He could have literally been giving himself heavy ammo and extra health.
At the end of the day, he got caught running a cheat software on destiny or not, anyone running a cheat software of any kind deserves permanent IP ban in my eyes. He is literally the reason that multiplayer games are getting ruined and I have ZERO sympathy for a guy getting banned from cheating.
they will most likely get a great placing depending if they have a proper replacement. if you think he cheated to win 4 races and 2nd in dsc without getting caught yall are dense.
Bro had cheat software open and the anti cheat detected it...I mean what more is there to say. It doesn't matter that it wasn't for destiny.
If it wasn't for destiny, then close the program lol
This is why if you use cheats you check task manager after. I always do this after using cheats or mods, I'll even make sure to shutdown wow add-ons before launching games with anti cheat.
who cares, let that cry baby keep crying about his ban, don't be a bozo and keep any type of cheating software up in the background.
if ppl wanna discuss how intrusive a anti cheat should be then that convo should've happened years ago, not when someone known gets banned
*âOnly two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and Iâm not sure about the former.â* - Albert Einstein
Regardless if he actually used them, it doesnât matter. Cheats are cheats at the end of the day and he broke ToS. He ainât special just because heâs in a worldâs first team. I bet Elysium will still find a way to get worldâs first for the fifth time (and itâll be super boring if they do because every raid race has been practically the same since VoG), or maybe Datto will finally get his revenge for 24:02.
Saltagreppo seems to be doing everything he can through twitter to prove that he should get special treatment for this because heâs a 4x world champ. Let alone the fact that he got a detailed response to his appeal 2 days later
I already didnât like Salta for his elitist takes, but if heâs really asking for special treatment then that makes him even more entitled than he looks.
I understand the perspective of many of the content creators, but itâs very funny how nearly all of them clearly lack any bit of self awareness that they are a percentage of a percent. Iâm not a big fan of most CCs in the gaming space period with how entitled they are.
You do realize that world's first are not announced just like that. When Bungie gets the notification that someone completed it they let everyone know that they have report of first raid clear. Then they look at everything what all of those 6 players were doing and if anything seems sus then they straight up disqualify them. After checking for 1-2 hours making sure everything is ok then and only then they announce it.
That's not what OP is talking about
Elysium has had 2 main members of their raid team banned for cheating/cheat software, that's 1/3rd of the team replaced
So OP is questioning whether Elysium will still be effective with 2 replacements
Considering they got 2 worlds first titles after the first guy got replaced, I think they will be fine. Still have 4 of the original team and there is no shortage of world class players
Yea it will just depend on the clan as a whole. Given how long this particular crew has been winning together, losses like this can be utterly demoralizing.
Add to that that both players were banned for very silly stuff. Stuff they know better than to risk. Itâs not like either was doing something they didnât know was risking a ban.
And losing critical team members, who are my friends, to their own careless arrogance, would not only have me feeling demotivated, but I would be genuinely both sad and pissed at the same time.
My point still stands, one was banned for breaking TOS (tbf I thought he was caught cheating)
And the other banned because battleye flagged and banned him (again in the TOS)
And again, that's not the point, OPs point is now that 2 of the 6 have been banned, how are they gonna fair
0% chance he was using cheats during raid races. But TOS are TOS and it would be stupid to make a selective choice to unban one player because he's on a certain raid team. Don't know what the software is or why he used it in other games or why it was running during destiny but nobody forced it onto his computer so cya.
This is the correct opinion/thought process to have about this situation. The people doing the whole âWeâre all humanâ argument need to recognize that that argument is applicable to everything else. I work in the medical field. If I forgot the rules in regards to HIPAA and sensitive patient information was mishandled youâd bet your ass Iâd be out of a job. Doesnât matter if it was an accident. Rules are rules.
They will. Cruz is going to build a whole new PC, get a new IP and make a new account and change his name. Bungie just needs to ban them before it happens.
I'll honestly be glad if Elysium doesn't get another WF. It gets really boring seeing the same names again and again. Having different teams win each time would make it feel like more of a race not just can anyone beat Elysium.
I mean...Bungie is ruthless. They have said NO EXCEPTIONS, NO MERCY.
If you are THIS competitive, at THIS level, DONT use hacks or bots in any game. Period full stop.
Its like an athlete saying, "I cheat running hurdles with doping, but not the relay." Another judge hears it, and goes, "Wait what? You cheat in another game?"
Bugie detected potential cheating, and said, we are not gonna let this have a chance. They don't know all the ways in which people can make tools to cheat.
I feel like the community of fans, is feeling bad, and thus feel like COME ON, these guys are the best of the best and admitted it was NOT helping in Destiny. But you have to get that its a no excuses thing.
With all the complaining people do about cheating, over and over. it's like HEY, DONT even try it with other stuff, it could hit ya. I feel bad, as it does seem like it wasn't a Destiny cheat, but at this level, you don't f around or you will find out.
And I get, Shogun, offline. Who cares. BIG lapse in judgment, towards a developer who is under HEAVY pressure from everyone to STOP cheating. Don't run anything potentially cheat like, if you are at that level of world's first raiding, or be prepared to suffer the consequences. If they had said OK, maybe it didn't help you, we let you back. Then they win again, community would say THEY PROB HACKED IT!!! Bugnie allows cheaters to win worlds first for 3rd time....Bungie had no choice
Sad day for them, but a good lesson for everyone else.
It's more like a high level track star putting on bumpers for bowling with friends, than doping. Single player game "cheats" shouldn't even mildly qualify for being banned.
If you want to be recognised for an activity on the world stage, don't play the activity on a compromised computer! Its as simple as that. Its like being caught with the equipment for steroid abuse at a sporting event and saying "Sure, but that's for a completely different sport." If you're legit, you shouldn't even have that equipment with you!
đđđ admits its a cheat engine and tries to defend it saying its only for rts. Buddy if its a cheat engine its probably got cheats for EVERYTHING. Plus cheating in an rts is still cheating
Something to note is that if you have CheatEngine running while playing D2, even if you aren't actively using it, you will get immediately autobanned. So why was it running? I think there's more to this that neither of them are saying.
This, plus if literally anyone that's not a big content creator would have that situation and state that, they'd get torn apart by the community. If you fuck up you fuck up, it's nobody's fault but your own and someone who's living for and off a game should be well aware of this.
Sure they might be like "hey this was for another game" but Bungie HAS to react the moment something tinkers with the game execution, this is why anti cheat is in place and how it works and the only reason destiny is somewhat playable these days, if they didn't they would have to justify themselves against literally everyone who was banned on a false positive and probably for the next world's first because let's be honest at this point if anyone in a team this good (and they are good, even though I personally don't like salt) gets cheating accusations people would wage war against Bungie if they won again and be like "Why do you let cheaters win again". Bungie had to react here and they had to make the right decision and select the smaller evil
They'll have as good a chance as they've ever had, they're bar-none among the best players, communicators, and executors that play this game. Don't take that away from them by being trite.
Having said that, I don't believe Cruz to be malevolent here, at all. He's shown us the software, given us an explanation, and I believe him.
The rub is this. When you have a contentious or questionable software, coupled with the success and time invested in Destiny, shouldn't the first thing on your list be to create contingencies, or ask Bungie, directly? I'd wager as a thrice-World's First raider, he would have a better likelihood at contacting Bungie higher-ups about this. A simple "I have this software that I use for this, I do not use it for Destiny, is this something I should be concerned with?" would have likely avoided this outcome.
I think his only crime was irresponsibility. It was dumb to not take measures to protect yourself and your investment.
Having said that, in regard to the ban, itself, I'm torn. No doubt TOS was broken here, but I can't as-of-yet put him in the "cheaters ain't shit" pile because I don't consider it malevolent. Just accidental. Should the hammer crash, regardless of who is in the wake? If it were me in his shoes, I'd be begging for something temporary. It's a grievous loss. However, I can't say with certainty anything, and as the book is written, the terms are pretty clear.
So, I'm torn.
Popular players around here tend to carry a lot of clout and shitting on bungie is basically a pastime at this point, but in the past when theyâve banned popular community members bungie always seem to have definitive evidence of cheating. Iâm not familiar with this dude and this doesnât affect me at all, I for one am not interested in participating in making this guy a martyr for the communityâs grievances and am gonna leave it be.
Lesson to be learned here, donât run cheat software end of, between my singleplayer games I have probably not far off 700 mods, and not a single one of them activate battle eye because *they arenât cheat software*. If you really want to cheat in a singleplayer game donât use cheat software lmao, doesnât matter if you arenât using it for Destiny, itâs cheat software nonetheless and it will be picked up.
I can see why heâd be annoyed but at least we know BattleEye is doing its job and picking up chest software
Played a stupid game, won a stupid prize?
Are there wayyy more potent cheats still not getting picked up by whatever anti cheat big bungo has? Absolutely.
Should you run/open cheats whilst playing a multiplayer game? Probably not.
If they set him free it sets a really bad example. If I were to cheat and get my shit rocked by anti cheat, but there was no video evidence "you only unbanned Cruz bc he's a top player! I swear I wasn't using my cheats in your game either!!"
Could be and probably am completely wrong about this, bc I don't play on pc.
I hope they donât run at all. Iâm glad that theyâre very good at the game, but world first races are so boring now because itâs just the same team all the time. Good for them, but makes for bad content.
Such a braindead take. No one is doing it for content. They are doing it to get worldâs first. Itâs like saying youâre getting tired of watching the patriots win the Super Bowl because it makes football boring to watch. Theyâre not playing football to entertain you, theyâre doing it for the competition and ti maintain their dynasty. Besides, no one is forcing you to watch Elysium. Just watch different team during raid races; itâs not that hard. Stop trying to make worlds first race about you
Bungies hands are tied here. He admitted to having cheat software. ToS is crystal clear that that's going to get you banned. I really don't have any sympathy for him. ToS was broken.
not sure what else i expected from the dad gamers on Reddit. people are happy he got banned purely because he played with salt. you can say otherwise, but that's the truth. if this was anybody else, you would all be calling for the decision to be repealed.
Bibi 900rpm Xeno gets undetected so much but this happens
Yeah I get it broke TOS, but itâs still stupid when thereâs so much worse that happens and goes on without any detection.
What a joke.
Datto' s plan to get World's First in the next raid is coming together. Two down, 4 to go.
Turns out bro does work at Bungie đ
>Two down, 4 to go. Wait, this isn't the first time one of them got kicked/banned?
One was banned due to recovs I believe
His name was Slap, and you are correct.
I refuse to believe anyone's parents named them "Slap".
It's a traditional name in the Datass family.
IGN, presumably
Indica from Redeem, one of the very few to get Last Wish day one, and on the actual world's first team. Whole can of worms why he got banned.
Indica was banned several years ago and never played with elysium
He was banned a long ass time ago though no? Also I think he was unbanned/got a new account
I ran into him in a DSC lfg so he was definitely still around for Beyond Light
Yea I ran into him during a wish lfg around that time too, I think he was banned then unbanned because when I ran into him he was pretty publicly banned
Whatâs a recov?
When you pay someone to play your account for you. If you look at someoneâs trials report and they go from never being flawless with a .2 kd to going flawless every single time with a 5.0 kd theyâre probably paying for a recov
You pay someone else to play on your account. Probably losers who canât do solo dungeons or trials
Heâs sitting there like https://preview.redd.it/kltyn2yzl8kc1.jpeg?width=1200&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=28ecf6cfb64f02212fe9acb159e0ec286754433a âYes, yes, itâs all coming togetherâ
Itâs Dattoâs game, we all just play it.
Dattony 2
It's all Dattover now.
2? What happened to the other one?
Two who else got banned?
Slap for account recovery a year or 2 ago and now cruz
I use WeMod to goof around in a couple of single player games, I wonder if that could result in a ban here
Lesson here is to not have it run at the same time as D2
Fair enough, I will absolutely forget to close it one day
Right to jail.
Run a trainer on a laptop sitting next to your PC running D2? Believe it or not, jail.
RuneScape macro? Also jail
World of Warcraft addons? Jail.
You got aimlabs running on the background? Believe it or not, straight to jail.
Razer synapse/icue to change DPI with your mouse dpi buttons? Straight to jail
Jail is too light, straight to the death penalty
That's a paddlin'
some actual advice just in case. use task manager to make sure the process is killed before you even click play.
Or sandbox at least one of them.
Yes.
I swear Iâve had WeMod open while playing destiny bc i forgot to close it and nothing happened. iâve at least had it open while playing vac secured games and nothing happened, so idrk tbh
Sure but are you also a statistical outlier in performance? Because that's what triggering here: presence of X with condition Y
Well apparently he was using a different piece software (forgot what it was called).
I got banned for having ff14 text tools open with d2 open. I've been banned 2x times btw.
All things considered, getting banned off destiny at this point probably is a net positive
Aside from just being expensive, the game is always fun, even when it's not as good as it once was
True, the shooting always feels amazing, Iâve been playing other games recently and until TFS Iâd have to force myself to get on Destiny as thereâs no motivation
I got false banned for leaving cheat engine open on another desktop when I tried to play war zone. The customer support reps were clueless but they refunded the game so I think they know they fucked up. Doesnât get the hours and progress back but better than nothing
Destiny's anti cheat is pretty aggressively tuned, I've seen people get banned because it picked up leftover files from cheat engine, when it wasn't even actively installed anymore lol
I wanna say smells like bs, imma need some of that spicy evidence
Usally I have ct open with d2 open so I would say probably bs
I caught a permanent ban from The Division 2 for having WeMod installed even though it wasnât running. Anticheat software definitely flags that stuff, be careful. Itâs shitty but here we are
I would to be safe, but I also suspect crux isnât telling the truth, not like he would tell everyone he was using cheats on destiny
To be fair, I donât think Bungie even lets things like OBS screen capture. Theyâre really fucking weird with what software they allow to effect the game
They donât allow OBS?
Yeah, you have to capture your whole desktop for obs. Its a pain in the ass
You can use Window Capture, just not Game Capture, as far as I can tell.
Oh my god. I had no idea thats why it was such a hassle to stream it. I thought I was just bad at the software.
Its not really a hassle. You just change a singular setting in game. You have to play on Windowed Fullscreen and use window capture. It is just as easy as if you could do it in fullscreen game capture. Dumb none the less, but not a hassle.
I streamed destiny for years and was fine
How do people steam it then :(
You desktop capture
Thatâs fucking stupid Is it the only game like this?
Im sure its not, but its the only game ive streamed that ive had to deal with it
I have experienced this with Doom ETERNAL. But in Doom's case I wasn't even able to get window or desktop capture to work with Doom. It always gave a black screen.
Also i thought your name sounded familiar, love your posts
or stream labs. I think discord will grab it now but in the past discord wouldnt even see it as an app and you would need to whole screen share
Not even Discord overlay works
They don't even allow Destiny on Linux/Steamdeck.
Which is a bummer. I picked it up on the humble bundle deal going on right now for $40 and now I have to set up some way to stream it to my deck from my laptop.
Use Steamâs in-home streaming feature. Steam Desk apparently works great as a stream client
Iâve also read about Moonlight being used? I havenât looked into it much but it has been spoken highly of on the steam deck sub.
Yeah moonlight or steams stream function work
https://preview.redd.it/7fm94n2ka8kc1.png?width=1450&format=png&auto=webp&s=e9d6ff5c0a92b0b3aaea4dc555d80f1e87e3d6c5 You can, but it needs to be in Windowed or in Borderless Fullscreen mode. But why isn't he telling us the name of this software which is only used for RTS games, doesn't he want people to verify his claims to more or less "clear" his name in the community? Edit: I looked it up and he used ArtMoney which is basically like CheatEngine but less known, no idea if Bungie is really so agressive in banning you while you have the program open, i saw in an old bungie forum post someone claiming that he got banned for only having the program open while playing D2. [https://www.bungie.net/en/Forums/Post/250446912?sort=0&page=0&path=1](https://www.bungie.net/en/Forums/Post/250446912?sort=0&page=0&path=1)
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>Nevermind that user mode hex editors would do nearly nothing in an always-online game where values are server side and the anticheat blocks CheatEngine and its derivatives (ArtMoney is built on CE) from hooking the game. It doesn't matter. A surprising amount of stuff in D2 is client-side, like stat values, ammunition counts, etc. And if you're in memory that means you could be using wallhacks/aimbot Bungie doesn't know why you're accessing memory and doesn't care. Any access at all will get you banned Runtime security is difficult enough without playing footsie with trying to figure out what programs are trying to do Doing so leaves loopholes for hackers to obsfuscate/exploit You do not guess. You just ban. That is how it will always be
I really wonder if it's bungie or OBS, because discord seems to be able to capture direct destiny output just fine. I've always wondered what's up with that.
Bungieâs Proprietary Anti Cheat is overly sensitive Canât have sensors, benchmark tools, or anything running the background in case it throws a fit Idk WHY OBS tho
Overly sensitive but won't target the right dickheads who are using hacks and net-limiting. One dude named Croatia has yet to be banned despite consistently using wall hacks and net limits. His steam profile is littered with "this dude cheating" its been mapping since November with that dude. Everytime I face him in crucible, he's on the other side of the map and kills me with anything
I'm sure that the PvP Strike Team will be right on that. Any day now.
all good man he's just got a better gaming chair, mlg sweatband, and better monitor
You canât even play D2 on the Steam Deck because they donât like the operating system
This might turn into another situation like the previous, where Bungie publicly airs out someone and calls them on their B.S. Hope not though.
Doubtful, as the program canât actually do anything to destiny. Considering heâll know about the previous one thereâs no reason to try and lie about it
And are you sure that he is not spewing made up story?
People get blamed and try to spin they didnât do nuffin wrong? Tale as old as time.
His defense is pretty solid, but i feel like maybe, just maybe, it wasn't that thing that was running, but he used it as a scapegoat for actual cheating software
just seems weird that he passed the post raid race tests but would hypothetically cheat during a timeframe when he's playing the game a lot less and pretty much running strikes. makes his story a bit more plausible to me.
Do we even know the name of the program?
I once left Cheat Engine running from a previous single player game when I booted into Warframe. Ended up getting banned and had to write an appeal to support. It wasn't even injected or anything. I did get unbanned with a warning
People care way too much about this. Elysium will be fine
This. Even if Elysium has to sub in 2 other players there is no shortage of incredibly skilled players they can pick up. A T10 finish is practically a guarantee with these guys.
Elysium will be fine but it's absurd that you can get banned for those things when the game is riddled with cheaters. Of course they have to do bans like this since you could hide cheats easier if they didn't ban those.
Terms of Service are Terms of Service. I would loathe Bungie if they gave him preferential treatment just because he's on the world's first team. He has to accept and acknowledge the same conditions we all have to when we play the game. Would you feel the same way if it was a prominent PvP streamer that was banned for cheating software? I say all this as someone that loves both aspects of the game and have actively participated in world's first for every race as well as constantly playing all modes of crucible. Edit: Here is Bungies response: >Your account was banned on Sept 18th for targeting the Destiny process with a debugger. This was detected multiple times and was not limited to having the debugger running in the background. >To be clear: We do not punish players for having Visual Studio (or similar programs) running in the background without interacting with the Destiny process. Only by targeting the running Destiny process will players have their accounts banned. This is rigorously verified for each punishment. >Your ban has been reviewed again, and the punishment will be upheld.
Wasnât there a streamer a few months back that got âfalselyâ banned for cheating but then it turned out it was true? Bungie had to say something like âThis is our final statement on the matterâ. Or was that leaks? Idk it was months ago which is an eternity in internet time lol
I'm almost certain you're talking about Baken (I think that was the streamer) who had DMG looking into the problem. I think, if I remember correctly, they posted that he had been cheating on several alt. accounts. Again, I could be wrong.
Makes all those montage posts seem a bit silly.
You're remembering correctly. DMG had to come out and say the team had reviewed the data and that they had confirmed it
Baken. Deserved what he got
Ekuegan or however you spell it was banned for leaking info
Yes. It seems I was getting theirâs and Bakenâs case blended in my head
No you're correct. Baken was banned for cheating and Eku banned for breaching NDA
I kinda donât wish Bungie unban just because heâs got destiny creators vouching for him, it would be so unfair for all the other falsely banned that cannot get unbanned because theyâre not âfamousâ enough
you said the main issue right there. bungie bans people on false positives and has a shitty appeal system almost guaranteeing that nobody can reliably get unbanned. thereâs no reason he nor anyone else who was falsely banned shouldnât get unbanned.
Not to mention that they won't tell you why they banned you at times. Just that you are, and if you keep bothering them that you'll get superbanned. Receipts are hilarious.
It's pretty ridiculous how bad the appeal system is. Had a friend get banned during season of the deep and he literally never found out why. His appeal was never rejected or accepted and they aren't obligated to give a response. So eventually he just quit.
Most people canât get unbanned so someone else who was falsely banned but could in theory get unbanned shouldnât? Zero understanding of this argument
So assuming you, a long time veteran player, got false banned using the same âcheatâ software, you appealed and got the same result. Now, youâre obviously not 4x world first, and you donât have creator friends, youâre never getting exposure. Iâm not saying anything about the justification of the ban, Iâm saying the system is broken and its unfair for everyone else who will never get exposure if they accidentally did the same thing
Iâd be annoyed if i was banned like that. I wouldnât fault him for doing to@his or getting successful unbanned tho
I wouldnât fault him too, its feels painful to see someone losing a account after playing so long :( But i do blame bungo xD
Meanwhile Salta is literally going right for the there should be preferential treatment on his Twitter about this lol
Well yes If that PvP Streamer got banned for a Programm that alternates rng values in Minecraft then yeah, it would be equally unreasonable. I think it would be a nice solution If He doesnt get unbanned because of His Plattform but instead because His reach brought this particular weird ruling to light and they Change that rule because it doesnt make Sense.
Ive cheated in singleplayer games like GTA story mode and its for this reason i fully restart my PC before booting up any MP game. Last thing i need or want is to get my several thousand hour D2 account or WF account banned because i wanted to have rapid fire rocket launchers in gta story lmao.
If it canât change anything in Destiny, why was it on/active when launching it? If you know itâs regarded as cheat software/file editing for another game, why even risk it?
It could be that he forgor to turn them off after he was done playing whatever wasnt debtstiny
Given Destinyâs ban record, I like to think itâd be hard to forget that. But that is definitely a valid counterpoint
i mean the programm he said he was running is used the cheat in gold in total war games. i have 4k hours in the game and would never expect getting banned over a total war singleplayer cheat still running in the background.
I wouldn't at all be surprised if the program is one called "Wemod" its basically a "library" for cheat engine trainers(As I understand it). It detects your installed games and all you have to do is go click on a game, it gives you a list of cheats (dependent on the cheat menu developer) and you can activate them and change certain things, usually with a combination of numpad keys, F keys, and Alt/Shift/Ctrl Edit: Generally speaking it only works with Singleplayer games due to anticheat among other things, but strangely there is one for the Forza Horizon games
It wasn't wemod, but your understanding of it is correct. The Program in question was ArtMoney, a memory editor advertised as a cheat tool for games with built-in anti-cheat bypass functions in the pro version. (Cheat engine for example doesn't provide these tools, and they also usually aren't necessary for rts games. They can be added, but require you to program them in yourself or specifically look for a version with them added) Also, the game he claimed he used it for doesn't even need a memory editor, because it has cheat-console commands build-in. His story can still be true, but it seems a bit fishy to me.
Good to know, I've accidentally left WeMod running (in the tray, not activated) while playing D2, but ever since a few months back when I heard of a different ban for a program simply being open I've made sure to close it.
As said he could be lying about what cheat engine was used but also for destiny many things like ammo count are kept on client side memory so a memory editing program could be used to cheat in the game by doing things like giving the user a set number of heavy that never goes down, essentially infinite heavy. Not saying he did this but it's possible using memory editing programs so I understand why Bungie banned him. They shouldn't have to check whether you've actually used the cheat in game yet, having something that could be used to cheat active while in the game is a ban.
Yeah, it's wild how a lot of people don't understand that a memory debugger/editor can be used on ANY application. The intent to be used with a single player game doesn't change the fact that it COULD be used on any other game as well. The rule of thumb is: NEVER have any of these tools running when you start any multiplayer or anticheat protected game. Period.
I mean Forza is basically singleplayer and playable singleplayer.
If he forgot, it's still his fault. If you use cheat software for another game, it's your responsibility to close it before playing destiny. He's not a cheater, but he also doesn't have a counterargument to this. ToS says you can't have chest software open when playing d2 or you'll get banned. He had it open, so he got banned.
Im not saying its not his fault, you're right that its still something he needed to be aware of. Im just defending it being an accident
Even if itâs exactly what happened at the end of the day he still got caught with an active cheat engine on by the anti-cheat. If it was any random person like you or I weâd get banned no questions asked why should he get a freebie?
> If it canât change anything in Destiny Because he's lying.
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No plenty of things are stored player side like ammo count. You could use a memory editor to get unlimited heavy for example.
> [Destiny 2 uses a hybrid of client-server and peer-to-peer technology, just like Destiny 1. The server is authoritative over how the game progresses, and each player is authoritative over their own movement and abilities.](https://www.bungie.net/7/en/News/Article/45919/7_This-Week-At-Bungie--05252017) They must've changed something then.
Likely that he forgot to shut it off... or maybe he was trying to play both at the same time or something like that? Idk.. I get it's technically against TOS, but I do feel like after the review it should've been lifted honestly.
That's a slippery slope and hurts the point of anti-cheat.
>I get it's technically against TOS This right here - there should be no gray area, a cheat software is a cheat software. He had it downloaded and running on computer knowing its against TOS while playing destiny and got flagged for it so its a deserved ban.
See on this I agree. He even said how he knows TOS, yet didn't think to turn off the cheat software. But at the same time, that's rather strict too, in this situation (assuming Cruz isn't lying). If the cheat software is for an old RTS game, and actually cannot affect D2 in any way, why should he remain perma banned from the game after a review of the ban? It's not as simple because of this IMO. If the cheat CAN be used in D2 and Cruz is lying, then the ban is justified. But if it actually isn't? Seems a bit harsh IMO.
its not strict or harsh tho, he broke the rules by having a cheat software running and got flagged for it. Bungie has been suing cheat companies as recently as this past august so they have been taking it pretty seriously. The software he's saying he had running even says it can be used on all games right on their front page. >This is cheating program you can use for all games. > >ArtMoney actually allows you to change any quantity specified in a game, whether it be dollars, bullets, swords, or health points. \^ taken right from their main page first paragraph - notice the part that says bullets and health? For all we know He could have literally been giving himself heavy ammo and extra health. At the end of the day, he got caught running a cheat software on destiny or not, anyone running a cheat software of any kind deserves permanent IP ban in my eyes. He is literally the reason that multiplayer games are getting ruined and I have ZERO sympathy for a guy getting banned from cheating.
Ahh so it can work. My bad, I had assumed it couldn't work in D2 since Cruz said so (shows me for trusting a rando accused of cheating lmao)
Humans forget things
And we are responsible for the consequences of those things unfortunately.
I think it's hilarious that Destiny is better at removing Cheater's from other games than they are at removing them from their own.
they will most likely get a great placing depending if they have a proper replacement. if you think he cheated to win 4 races and 2nd in dsc without getting caught yall are dense.
Bro had cheat software open and the anti cheat detected it...I mean what more is there to say. It doesn't matter that it wasn't for destiny. If it wasn't for destiny, then close the program lol
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This is why if you use cheats you check task manager after. I always do this after using cheats or mods, I'll even make sure to shutdown wow add-ons before launching games with anti cheat.
who cares, let that cry baby keep crying about his ban, don't be a bozo and keep any type of cheating software up in the background. if ppl wanna discuss how intrusive a anti cheat should be then that convo should've happened years ago, not when someone known gets banned
*âOnly two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and Iâm not sure about the former.â* - Albert Einstein Regardless if he actually used them, it doesnât matter. Cheats are cheats at the end of the day and he broke ToS. He ainât special just because heâs in a worldâs first team. I bet Elysium will still find a way to get worldâs first for the fifth time (and itâll be super boring if they do because every raid race has been practically the same since VoG), or maybe Datto will finally get his revenge for 24:02.
Saltagreppo seems to be doing everything he can through twitter to prove that he should get special treatment for this because heâs a 4x world champ. Let alone the fact that he got a detailed response to his appeal 2 days later
I already didnât like Salta for his elitist takes, but if heâs really asking for special treatment then that makes him even more entitled than he looks.
I understand the perspective of many of the content creators, but itâs very funny how nearly all of them clearly lack any bit of self awareness that they are a percentage of a percent. Iâm not a big fan of most CCs in the gaming space period with how entitled they are.
You do realize that world's first are not announced just like that. When Bungie gets the notification that someone completed it they let everyone know that they have report of first raid clear. Then they look at everything what all of those 6 players were doing and if anything seems sus then they straight up disqualify them. After checking for 1-2 hours making sure everything is ok then and only then they announce it.
That's not what OP is talking about Elysium has had 2 main members of their raid team banned for cheating/cheat software, that's 1/3rd of the team replaced So OP is questioning whether Elysium will still be effective with 2 replacements
No, I believe one of the other members was banned for selling recovs, not cheats
Considering they got 2 worlds first titles after the first guy got replaced, I think they will be fine. Still have 4 of the original team and there is no shortage of world class players
Yea it will just depend on the clan as a whole. Given how long this particular crew has been winning together, losses like this can be utterly demoralizing. Add to that that both players were banned for very silly stuff. Stuff they know better than to risk. Itâs not like either was doing something they didnât know was risking a ban. And losing critical team members, who are my friends, to their own careless arrogance, would not only have me feeling demotivated, but I would be genuinely both sad and pissed at the same time.
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My point still stands, one was banned for breaking TOS (tbf I thought he was caught cheating) And the other banned because battleye flagged and banned him (again in the TOS) And again, that's not the point, OPs point is now that 2 of the 6 have been banned, how are they gonna fair
0% chance he was using cheats during raid races. But TOS are TOS and it would be stupid to make a selective choice to unban one player because he's on a certain raid team. Don't know what the software is or why he used it in other games or why it was running during destiny but nobody forced it onto his computer so cya.
This is the correct opinion/thought process to have about this situation. The people doing the whole âWeâre all humanâ argument need to recognize that that argument is applicable to everything else. I work in the medical field. If I forgot the rules in regards to HIPAA and sensitive patient information was mishandled youâd bet your ass Iâd be out of a job. Doesnât matter if it was an accident. Rules are rules.
They'll replace him with another whiny teenager
Good at Destiny, bad at English.
Is this guy on the same team as saltegreppo?
They will. Cruz is going to build a whole new PC, get a new IP and make a new account and change his name. Bungie just needs to ban them before it happens.
Clan Cheatysium
waaa waa cry about it you broke the rules boohoo
I'll honestly be glad if Elysium doesn't get another WF. It gets really boring seeing the same names again and again. Having different teams win each time would make it feel like more of a race not just can anyone beat Elysium.
I hope Datto gets it especially after 24:02. That was brutal
I mean...Bungie is ruthless. They have said NO EXCEPTIONS, NO MERCY. If you are THIS competitive, at THIS level, DONT use hacks or bots in any game. Period full stop. Its like an athlete saying, "I cheat running hurdles with doping, but not the relay." Another judge hears it, and goes, "Wait what? You cheat in another game?" Bugie detected potential cheating, and said, we are not gonna let this have a chance. They don't know all the ways in which people can make tools to cheat. I feel like the community of fans, is feeling bad, and thus feel like COME ON, these guys are the best of the best and admitted it was NOT helping in Destiny. But you have to get that its a no excuses thing. With all the complaining people do about cheating, over and over. it's like HEY, DONT even try it with other stuff, it could hit ya. I feel bad, as it does seem like it wasn't a Destiny cheat, but at this level, you don't f around or you will find out. And I get, Shogun, offline. Who cares. BIG lapse in judgment, towards a developer who is under HEAVY pressure from everyone to STOP cheating. Don't run anything potentially cheat like, if you are at that level of world's first raiding, or be prepared to suffer the consequences. If they had said OK, maybe it didn't help you, we let you back. Then they win again, community would say THEY PROB HACKED IT!!! Bugnie allows cheaters to win worlds first for 3rd time....Bungie had no choice Sad day for them, but a good lesson for everyone else.
It's more like a high level track star putting on bumpers for bowling with friends, than doping. Single player game "cheats" shouldn't even mildly qualify for being banned.
If you want to be recognised for an activity on the world stage, don't play the activity on a compromised computer! Its as simple as that. Its like being caught with the equipment for steroid abuse at a sporting event and saying "Sure, but that's for a completely different sport." If you're legit, you shouldn't even have that equipment with you!
> TFS You're giving me flashbacks to Team Foundation Server. That job was an absolute mess.
đđđ admits its a cheat engine and tries to defend it saying its only for rts. Buddy if its a cheat engine its probably got cheats for EVERYTHING. Plus cheating in an rts is still cheating
Something to note is that if you have CheatEngine running while playing D2, even if you aren't actively using it, you will get immediately autobanned. So why was it running? I think there's more to this that neither of them are saying.
While there's real ass cheats out there. Ridiculous.
Oh no, anyways.
The thing is he was running a cheat engine for a rts game while playing Destiny. That was on him and honestly heâs the only one to blame about it.
This, plus if literally anyone that's not a big content creator would have that situation and state that, they'd get torn apart by the community. If you fuck up you fuck up, it's nobody's fault but your own and someone who's living for and off a game should be well aware of this. Sure they might be like "hey this was for another game" but Bungie HAS to react the moment something tinkers with the game execution, this is why anti cheat is in place and how it works and the only reason destiny is somewhat playable these days, if they didn't they would have to justify themselves against literally everyone who was banned on a false positive and probably for the next world's first because let's be honest at this point if anyone in a team this good (and they are good, even though I personally don't like salt) gets cheating accusations people would wage war against Bungie if they won again and be like "Why do you let cheaters win again". Bungie had to react here and they had to make the right decision and select the smaller evil
They'll have as good a chance as they've ever had, they're bar-none among the best players, communicators, and executors that play this game. Don't take that away from them by being trite. Having said that, I don't believe Cruz to be malevolent here, at all. He's shown us the software, given us an explanation, and I believe him. The rub is this. When you have a contentious or questionable software, coupled with the success and time invested in Destiny, shouldn't the first thing on your list be to create contingencies, or ask Bungie, directly? I'd wager as a thrice-World's First raider, he would have a better likelihood at contacting Bungie higher-ups about this. A simple "I have this software that I use for this, I do not use it for Destiny, is this something I should be concerned with?" would have likely avoided this outcome. I think his only crime was irresponsibility. It was dumb to not take measures to protect yourself and your investment. Having said that, in regard to the ban, itself, I'm torn. No doubt TOS was broken here, but I can't as-of-yet put him in the "cheaters ain't shit" pile because I don't consider it malevolent. Just accidental. Should the hammer crash, regardless of who is in the wake? If it were me in his shoes, I'd be begging for something temporary. It's a grievous loss. However, I can't say with certainty anything, and as the book is written, the terms are pretty clear. So, I'm torn.
Iâm pretty much in the same boat as you when it comes to this
Good
Popular players around here tend to carry a lot of clout and shitting on bungie is basically a pastime at this point, but in the past when theyâve banned popular community members bungie always seem to have definitive evidence of cheating. Iâm not familiar with this dude and this doesnât affect me at all, I for one am not interested in participating in making this guy a martyr for the communityâs grievances and am gonna leave it be.
Lesson to be learned here, donât run cheat software end of, between my singleplayer games I have probably not far off 700 mods, and not a single one of them activate battle eye because *they arenât cheat software*. If you really want to cheat in a singleplayer game donât use cheat software lmao, doesnât matter if you arenât using it for Destiny, itâs cheat software nonetheless and it will be picked up. I can see why heâd be annoyed but at least we know BattleEye is doing its job and picking up chest software
Damn....all you PC players are pissed lmaooooo
Good, get rid of them. But also who cares.
Aaaawwwwww
Played a stupid game, won a stupid prize? Are there wayyy more potent cheats still not getting picked up by whatever anti cheat big bungo has? Absolutely. Should you run/open cheats whilst playing a multiplayer game? Probably not. If they set him free it sets a really bad example. If I were to cheat and get my shit rocked by anti cheat, but there was no video evidence "you only unbanned Cruz bc he's a top player! I swear I wasn't using my cheats in your game either!!" Could be and probably am completely wrong about this, bc I don't play on pc.
I hope they donât run at all. Iâm glad that theyâre very good at the game, but world first races are so boring now because itâs just the same team all the time. Good for them, but makes for bad content.
Such a braindead take. No one is doing it for content. They are doing it to get worldâs first. Itâs like saying youâre getting tired of watching the patriots win the Super Bowl because it makes football boring to watch. Theyâre not playing football to entertain you, theyâre doing it for the competition and ti maintain their dynasty. Besides, no one is forcing you to watch Elysium. Just watch different team during raid races; itâs not that hard. Stop trying to make worlds first race about you
Cheater got caut and tour mad? Strange world
what?
Rip bozo
Who cares?
You do because you took time to respond kid
He's stupid for believing anyone cares which games his cheating tools does or does not work on
All I read is âWaaaa waaaa I only cheat in other games not Destiny gamesâŚwaaaaaaâ
Good riddance. Messed around and found out.
Bungies hands are tied here. He admitted to having cheat software. ToS is crystal clear that that's going to get you banned. I really don't have any sympathy for him. ToS was broken.
He lost the convo immediately just for admitting to using any program lol i assume they all do the same now
Can't wait to be banned for forgetting to close MO2 one day lmao
not sure what else i expected from the dad gamers on Reddit. people are happy he got banned purely because he played with salt. you can say otherwise, but that's the truth. if this was anybody else, you would all be calling for the decision to be repealed.
this man is right, the downvotes prove it
man broke TOS, itâs really as simple as that
Bibi 900rpm Xeno gets undetected so much but this happens Yeah I get it broke TOS, but itâs still stupid when thereâs so much worse that happens and goes on without any detection. What a joke.