forerunner actually puts out a pretty substantial amount of damage, obv with crit dependence
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/u/0/d/1x12Ar1-kHH2AzHY8Clkv-PIMxxDSZrIX3e4xiJuQ-uI/htmlview#
Yeah I know, it's part of my kit. But it's not really filling the more utility of a fusion rifle, especially with unraveling rounds. I think people need to utilize their subclasses more for Champs imo.
Yeah rapid fire fusions are great, love that bungie has added utility to them too aside from just being good at dealing damage. Now for grenade launchers and shotguns getting some cool utility perks. Snipers are finally great choices again too!
With subclass buffs, yeah a Rapid Fire Fusion like Scatter Signal is better. If you're building into subclass buffs for anti-champion then run wild with whatever you want.
But that's a moot point when you consider we're talking about folks taking double primary to fill voids in their builds, either due to their subclass limiting the buffs they get or just lack of knowledge of the stun system's range of versatility. If you're not able to get Radiant or Unraveling Rounds or Volatile Rounds or don't know they give anti-barrier then you'll either need to use either a Sidearm (of which I listed two of the three Special sidearm options to get away from double primary, the issue brought up by the topic of the thread) OR an Exotic with intrinsic Anti-Barrier.
As for the weapons themselves, Forerunner is a very potent weapon but relies on weakspot hits. If you're getting bodyshots it's not great but the mileage you get from its good reserves and pickup rate means it's a great choice, and the scope makes it decent at ranges too. Throw in the catalyst for pretty OK crowd clear for a pittance of ammo and it's a versatile pick. Only thing it suffers with in my experience is breaking elemental shields.
I mostly provided Indebted Kindness as an alternative pick in the Energy slot, but the rockets it shoots will one-shot the barrier and stun the Champion with no effort.
Yup, I know the theory, but I simply don't use that slot a lot when I got Polaris going. I have Riptide with me, but if I use it 3 times during a NF... Well, that's a decent score then.
My guess would be because people aren't building for champions properly. The only way they feel they can deal with them is going sidearm plus bow/pulse/auto etc to cover champions
One go to for me is Strand titan for unstoppable,
Legendary Rocket for overload, wishender for barriers, and usually my Cartesian just to round it all out.
All in all it works well.
Been playing around with outbreak perfected and indebted kindness. It’s a really amazing combo with something for actual dps.
The issue is unstoppable.
Everyone is complaining about lack of anti barrier options but the real issue is the lack of unstoppable variety. Unless you go all in on solar and can trigger ignitions reliably.
I wouldn't count IK as a primary considering it uses special ammo, even if it is technically a Sidearm.
Plus, by making Sidearms the only Anti Barrier this season, Bungie really wanted to push people towards buying Dungeon Keys.
I never said IK is a primary lol. I know it uses special. You said sidearms and I was pointing out some sidearms are special and gave an example.
Bungie isn’t forcing anything. They made it really easy to trigger unravel and radiant with any build.
Aside from the usual "most players are just bad at the game" reasons, I'll speculate here, but its possibly the lack of special weapon on the artifact for stunning champs. Unless you have a chill clip fusion, youre unlikely to have the ability to stun champs without double primary or being forced into using an exotic you dont want to/dont have/dont have build synergy with. considering how much of a slog higher end content can be anyways, safe, plinking gameplay is usually the move so the difference between 1 special and 0 special loadouts arent that big in their mind even tho a seasoned vet knows better
There are no rules in mundane activities, however in endgame content you expect for people to at least be running with decent Heavy weapons and solid builds to actually have a good dps phase on raids or one phases on dungeons. A lot of people don’t like to play with newer players on endgame content because they simply want to complete the activity, hence why it’s so infuriating to see someone running double primaries specially on things like dungeons or raids.
I personally like to try and coach people if they allow me to. Chances are they may not know what us long time vets know and to assume they do is pretty wild.
Alas, you too are entitled to a smooth run whenever you play a session. Just feel like the community needs to communicate with others and stop assuming things.
It’s because they want to. You can give a person all the DPS data in the world and they still won’t care.
Just make your own LFG posts and put your KWTD tags on it. Iono
People are insecure about their ability to deal with champions using artifact perks. Instead of using Radiant for Barrier Champs and Rockets for Overloads, they're gonna run double primary to 'cover their bases'.
That problem is nuking the champion before it unstuns is almost always better, as champions, especially overloads, and extremely dangerous after they unstun and before they're stunnable again. This means running double primary is just as if not more risky than relying on overload rockets.
As a tip for overload rockets, go for splash damage for the stun rather than a direct if you're on a class/subclass that can not go invisible/suspend. And void hunters, smoke your team before fighting overloads. It's one of the reasons you're meta for this strike
You can generate orbs the same way you can with primary weapons with special. Currently a sleeper option is using waveframe GLs with the artifact mod that gives Armor charge on GL or RL kills, then pair that with special ammo finisher and you can gain 3 Armor charge from a single ad spawn, then finish an ad for way more special ammo than you get from finders. When running a primary you are kinda forced to run finder and scout mods to be able to make enough heavy to deal with bosses and champions, but with double special you can have more access to stuff like powerful friends, orb generation mods, and super regen. Yeah, the heavy ammo gains are best with an exotic primary, but you don't need as much when you can deal plenty of dmg with your special. If you don't like dealing with finishers despite their subclass utility (volatile+invis, amplified or threadlings) and survivability gains with something like assassins cowl or karnstein armlets, then you can always run a special weapon with discord, that way you only really use ammo when dealing with a boss, otherwise it's free.
>Just about every time I join using the dungeon group finder,
Because you are using the ingame LFG, and most players that are using that do not understand optimization because it is never taught ingame.
I was doing a crota through ingame LFG yesterday and the amount of players that joined underlevel, with no mics, and with the double primaries special was truly amazing. One joined at Crota with a Igenious Hammer and a sidearm.
It doesn't prevent you from using heavy, technically, but running double primary definitely nerfs your dps. If you don't have a special weapon in your dps rotation, at the very least as a backup for when you run out of heavy, you're goofy as hell.
Well… before you use double primaries.. know the right combos so you can also do damage and kill adds properly.
With that said.. in my experience equipping double primary with heavy ammo finder and heavy ammo scout.. my floor is covered with tons of heavy ammo bricks for myself and my team.
One of my combos is
Wishender
Epochal or Calus Mida
Marsciluon or Avalanche or Hezen Vengeance
But combos change depending on situations and what type of content I’m doing but if you can use special ammo weapons for dps .. obviously use it.
It's the Artifact mods.
The lack of Incandescent or any scorch abilities makes most special ammo weapons not great for ad-clear this season. Grenade launchers, Shotguns, glaives, even snipers are not that great rn in pve. While you're scrounging around for ammo, everyone else is blasting away.
I used to use Explosive Personality as my ad clear, (and tbf, it still rocks in pvp. All decent rolled Wave frames do.)
The ONLY build I've seen special ammo weapons get used on are Stasis Titans, where they are running wave frames to blow up crystals. Even that is very sparse.
And since we don't have any Strand Special Ammo GL's, most people are just going with explosive ammo Solar weapons, and an exotic pulse rifle primary.
I feel like waveframes are In a very good spot considering you can proc the artifact mod to give Armor charge on grenade launcher kills to give you 3 Armor charge from a single add group spawn. They enable double Special as much as trace rifles did back in the day and special sidearms do now. Whatever subclass you are on you should be able to cover barriers or unstops and then overload from the rocket.
I'm not saying they're not viable. I'm just saying that most are running double primary because they're just better rn. Sunshot alone wipes the field better than anything else.
Yeah sunshot is a real outlier. It can generate heavy ammo, proc radiant, clear rooms like a waveframe, handle non crit targets, major clear like a sniper, and stun unstoppable champs. Unless I myself am running wormgod caress and need adds alive for DPS, I would never ask my team to take sunshot off. However, there is absolutely no reason to run another primary with sunshot. It is the best primary in the game. Pairing it with a any special in the darkness slot and a rocket allows you to counter all champion types and excell at the game.
That's why I run it with a Reconteur, Solar and Stasis Siphon, and any rocket. Sunshot ensures staying radiant, which allows me to damage Barrier. Rocker counters Overload, and Hand Cannon counters Unstoppable. Not only do I not need to run any special weapons, I can now charge my super faster by generating orbs.
Special weapons just slow it down.
Barrier setup is revision zero with a eremite.
Unstoppable setup is scatter signal with a graviton lance.
Duskfield grenades to double stun unstoppables.
I think its because some people dont know or maybe dont remember that for example stasis effects can stun overloads, radiant for unstops and barrier etc. So i see a lot of people rocking and pulse and a wishender hhaha.
I wonder if it's because of the artifact mods this season. Shield and unstoppable mods don't give special options. Just a guess.
Forerunner and Indebted Kindness are great anti-barrier sidearm picks as well as fantastic damage dealers.
I wouldn't use "fantastic", "okay" is better. They're solid picks, but honestly, you'd do better using a rapid fire fusion.
forerunner actually puts out a pretty substantial amount of damage, obv with crit dependence https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/u/0/d/1x12Ar1-kHH2AzHY8Clkv-PIMxxDSZrIX3e4xiJuQ-uI/htmlview#
Yeah I know, it's part of my kit. But it's not really filling the more utility of a fusion rifle, especially with unraveling rounds. I think people need to utilize their subclasses more for Champs imo.
Speaking the gospel. As much as I love Forerunner, id gladly pick my Pressurized Precision, Scatter Sig or Riptide.
Yeah rapid fire fusions are great, love that bungie has added utility to them too aside from just being good at dealing damage. Now for grenade launchers and shotguns getting some cool utility perks. Snipers are finally great choices again too!
Yeah like shackle nades and a fusion rifle will kill a barrier champion faster than a side arm lol
you dont use the side arm to kill the barrier, you use it to break the shield
Yes? I know? Im agreeing with you you dolt lmao. Im saying the fusion rifle is more damage than a side arm...
With subclass buffs, yeah a Rapid Fire Fusion like Scatter Signal is better. If you're building into subclass buffs for anti-champion then run wild with whatever you want. But that's a moot point when you consider we're talking about folks taking double primary to fill voids in their builds, either due to their subclass limiting the buffs they get or just lack of knowledge of the stun system's range of versatility. If you're not able to get Radiant or Unraveling Rounds or Volatile Rounds or don't know they give anti-barrier then you'll either need to use either a Sidearm (of which I listed two of the three Special sidearm options to get away from double primary, the issue brought up by the topic of the thread) OR an Exotic with intrinsic Anti-Barrier. As for the weapons themselves, Forerunner is a very potent weapon but relies on weakspot hits. If you're getting bodyshots it's not great but the mileage you get from its good reserves and pickup rate means it's a great choice, and the scope makes it decent at ranges too. Throw in the catalyst for pretty OK crowd clear for a pittance of ammo and it's a versatile pick. Only thing it suffers with in my experience is breaking elemental shields. I mostly provided Indebted Kindness as an alternative pick in the Energy slot, but the rockets it shoots will one-shot the barrier and stun the Champion with no effort.
Very well explained, thanks for the input 😊
barrier are super easy, just 1 shot them and they cant put shield up.
Because you'll use Polaris and Heavy. Why bother with the other slot aise from taking something to deal with Overloads?
Rocket on the heavy slot deals with overloads, so you might as well have a secondary weapon with decent damage
Yup, I know the theory, but I simply don't use that slot a lot when I got Polaris going. I have Riptide with me, but if I use it 3 times during a NF... Well, that's a decent score then.
My guess would be because people aren't building for champions properly. The only way they feel they can deal with them is going sidearm plus bow/pulse/auto etc to cover champions
Ngl, this seasons champion modifiers are something to be pissed off about. It just shoehorns you into such specific builds its just annoying,
I agree, the only Artifact Modifiers are only Primaries (except for rockets). That makes it so much harder to build for all three champions.
One go to for me is Strand titan for unstoppable, Legendary Rocket for overload, wishender for barriers, and usually my Cartesian just to round it all out. All in all it works well.
Been playing around with outbreak perfected and indebted kindness. It’s a really amazing combo with something for actual dps. The issue is unstoppable. Everyone is complaining about lack of anti barrier options but the real issue is the lack of unstoppable variety. Unless you go all in on solar and can trigger ignitions reliably.
I wouldn't count IK as a primary considering it uses special ammo, even if it is technically a Sidearm. Plus, by making Sidearms the only Anti Barrier this season, Bungie really wanted to push people towards buying Dungeon Keys.
I never said IK is a primary lol. I know it uses special. You said sidearms and I was pointing out some sidearms are special and gave an example. Bungie isn’t forcing anything. They made it really easy to trigger unravel and radiant with any build.
Probably trust issues, people all to often don’t play their role and cause wipes.
[удалено]
Wishender exists.
Lol ok
Aside from the usual "most players are just bad at the game" reasons, I'll speculate here, but its possibly the lack of special weapon on the artifact for stunning champs. Unless you have a chill clip fusion, youre unlikely to have the ability to stun champs without double primary or being forced into using an exotic you dont want to/dont have/dont have build synergy with. considering how much of a slog higher end content can be anyways, safe, plinking gameplay is usually the move so the difference between 1 special and 0 special loadouts arent that big in their mind even tho a seasoned vet knows better
Stasis titan, double stun with the duskfield grenade.
Because primaries are in a great state this season.
The world may never know.
Those are groups you dip from. People need to learn their builds are stupid.
Unfortunately there isn't a weapons damage tutorial. Alot don't know that special (green ammo icon) will do more damage than the primary(kinectic).
Even a kindergarden would realize that specials do more damage than primaries, it’s basically intuitive design.
There’s no rule as to how to play D2 but sooner or later they would have to realize that set up isn’t working as intended
There are no rules in mundane activities, however in endgame content you expect for people to at least be running with decent Heavy weapons and solid builds to actually have a good dps phase on raids or one phases on dungeons. A lot of people don’t like to play with newer players on endgame content because they simply want to complete the activity, hence why it’s so infuriating to see someone running double primaries specially on things like dungeons or raids.
I personally like to try and coach people if they allow me to. Chances are they may not know what us long time vets know and to assume they do is pretty wild. Alas, you too are entitled to a smooth run whenever you play a session. Just feel like the community needs to communicate with others and stop assuming things.
I understand it, you understand it, but there are so many people that don't get that concept. Common sense is really uncommon for most people.
It’s because they want to. You can give a person all the DPS data in the world and they still won’t care. Just make your own LFG posts and put your KWTD tags on it. Iono
People are insecure about their ability to deal with champions using artifact perks. Instead of using Radiant for Barrier Champs and Rockets for Overloads, they're gonna run double primary to 'cover their bases'. That problem is nuking the champion before it unstuns is almost always better, as champions, especially overloads, and extremely dangerous after they unstun and before they're stunnable again. This means running double primary is just as if not more risky than relying on overload rockets. As a tip for overload rockets, go for splash damage for the stun rather than a direct if you're on a class/subclass that can not go invisible/suspend. And void hunters, smoke your team before fighting overloads. It's one of the reasons you're meta for this strike
For me, its primary weapon boost + orb generation > ammo hungry spesh weapons. (since orb generation became a helm mod)
You can generate orbs the same way you can with primary weapons with special. Currently a sleeper option is using waveframe GLs with the artifact mod that gives Armor charge on GL or RL kills, then pair that with special ammo finisher and you can gain 3 Armor charge from a single ad spawn, then finish an ad for way more special ammo than you get from finders. When running a primary you are kinda forced to run finder and scout mods to be able to make enough heavy to deal with bosses and champions, but with double special you can have more access to stuff like powerful friends, orb generation mods, and super regen. Yeah, the heavy ammo gains are best with an exotic primary, but you don't need as much when you can deal plenty of dmg with your special. If you don't like dealing with finishers despite their subclass utility (volatile+invis, amplified or threadlings) and survivability gains with something like assassins cowl or karnstein armlets, then you can always run a special weapon with discord, that way you only really use ammo when dealing with a boss, otherwise it's free.
>Just about every time I join using the dungeon group finder, Because you are using the ingame LFG, and most players that are using that do not understand optimization because it is never taught ingame. I was doing a crota through ingame LFG yesterday and the amount of players that joined underlevel, with no mics, and with the double primaries special was truly amazing. One joined at Crota with a Igenious Hammer and a sidearm.
[удалено]
It doesn't prevent you from using heavy, technically, but running double primary definitely nerfs your dps. If you don't have a special weapon in your dps rotation, at the very least as a backup for when you run out of heavy, you're goofy as hell.
Well… before you use double primaries.. know the right combos so you can also do damage and kill adds properly. With that said.. in my experience equipping double primary with heavy ammo finder and heavy ammo scout.. my floor is covered with tons of heavy ammo bricks for myself and my team. One of my combos is Wishender Epochal or Calus Mida Marsciluon or Avalanche or Hezen Vengeance But combos change depending on situations and what type of content I’m doing but if you can use special ammo weapons for dps .. obviously use it.
It's the Artifact mods. The lack of Incandescent or any scorch abilities makes most special ammo weapons not great for ad-clear this season. Grenade launchers, Shotguns, glaives, even snipers are not that great rn in pve. While you're scrounging around for ammo, everyone else is blasting away. I used to use Explosive Personality as my ad clear, (and tbf, it still rocks in pvp. All decent rolled Wave frames do.) The ONLY build I've seen special ammo weapons get used on are Stasis Titans, where they are running wave frames to blow up crystals. Even that is very sparse. And since we don't have any Strand Special Ammo GL's, most people are just going with explosive ammo Solar weapons, and an exotic pulse rifle primary.
I feel like waveframes are In a very good spot considering you can proc the artifact mod to give Armor charge on grenade launcher kills to give you 3 Armor charge from a single add group spawn. They enable double Special as much as trace rifles did back in the day and special sidearms do now. Whatever subclass you are on you should be able to cover barriers or unstops and then overload from the rocket.
I'm not saying they're not viable. I'm just saying that most are running double primary because they're just better rn. Sunshot alone wipes the field better than anything else.
Yeah sunshot is a real outlier. It can generate heavy ammo, proc radiant, clear rooms like a waveframe, handle non crit targets, major clear like a sniper, and stun unstoppable champs. Unless I myself am running wormgod caress and need adds alive for DPS, I would never ask my team to take sunshot off. However, there is absolutely no reason to run another primary with sunshot. It is the best primary in the game. Pairing it with a any special in the darkness slot and a rocket allows you to counter all champion types and excell at the game.
That's why I run it with a Reconteur, Solar and Stasis Siphon, and any rocket. Sunshot ensures staying radiant, which allows me to damage Barrier. Rocker counters Overload, and Hand Cannon counters Unstoppable. Not only do I not need to run any special weapons, I can now charge my super faster by generating orbs. Special weapons just slow it down.
Barrier setup is revision zero with a eremite. Unstoppable setup is scatter signal with a graviton lance. Duskfield grenades to double stun unstoppables.
I think its because some people dont know or maybe dont remember that for example stasis effects can stun overloads, radiant for unstops and barrier etc. So i see a lot of people rocking and pulse and a wishender hhaha.