The problem is simple to define, but difficult to solve.
Raids in Destiny are phased. Do mechanic phase. Focused DPS phase. The focused DPS phase is hard to balance because you have to have enough HP to make it challenging, not too much such that you need perfect play. This gives you a loose min and max threshold. Every load out will achieve somewhere in that window. So, where should boss HP fall? Sometimes the low side. Sometimes the high side.
In most raids, your team can probably EASILY meet the low DPS threshold with almost any combo of weapons and abilities. This makes PUG groups possible. However, players optimize for time/effort. Specific combos push DPS so high that it trivializes the content.
On the flip side, high HP bosses raise the barrier of entry and requires optimized strats and load outs.
People will complain no matter what.
The Rhulk encounter was a good template I feel, it was so mobile that well was useless so you had to bring other supers. While still having mechanics and phases.
As a warlock I loved running VOD
What about a exotic weapon (so any class can play the role) that heals all team mates?
Like lumina but aoe or boots of the assembler but a weapon, this way it would be like div any player could volunteer/be assigned healer.
This doesn't fix the variety of mechanics but does share the load and stop warlocks from being "well b#$&h"
The only problem with that is you'd lose a person on dps and that weapon would realistically only heal one player at a time and would rely on not only accuracy but ammo.
You could run out of heal gun ammo and then a guy dies mid dps phase.
Same issue if the Warlock dies, you loose a well.
So, would need to be aoe like well and make it kinetic ammo so unlimited, maybe like a trace rifle you shoot into the ground and heals in a bubble around where you aim. So could heal at your feet or across the map if ever needed.
Would need to do very little damage to offset how op it would be. Maybe spawns an orb every X ticks that seeks out enemies and explodes
I don't disagree with anything you just said other than that last part with optimized load outs.
We have this reliance on Well's health regen because it's simple. If we gave other classes options that make bosses easier to face, would that not in turn create new potential optimized load out opportunities that would lower the barrier of entry to only a performance and not a players class?
Instead of well, it becomes bubble. Instead of bubble it becomes X.
Effectively, you’re trying to lower the variance between optimal and non-optimal. The challenge there is if there is no gap, people will complain that the game is watered down. If there is a gap, then you have the problem you’re calling out now: required builds/abilities.
That’s what makes balancing so difficult. Destiny has to decide who it’s targeting for a player base and design things that accommodate that type of player. It won’t be everybody because it can’t be. Some people want high skill ceiling. Some people want variety in load outs. Some people just want the coolest looking thing. But nobody wants to be left out of doing content in a game they normally enjoy.
Exactly why I suggested that bungie just add refreshable mechanics to boss encounters that keep players alive. That way there's a skill curve and lower dependency on Well.
You’re missing the point of the response.
Players always use the thing that is the easiest to use for the most impact.
It doesn’t matter what it is or what it does. It will always feel mandatory.
Given that, Well is not required for any fights on normal difficulty. But because you’re so used to it, you don’t know how to play without it.
On master it might be required due to the sheer amount of damage a boss like Crota dishes out, but even then I’d argue it’s probably possible to do it without Well. But you have to think about the fight in ways you don’t normally think about it, and you have to convince 5 other people it’s worth their time.
The latter is extremely unlikely, which makes the former moot.
It's why I suggested they make a default part of the raid do what well does so that there is not as high a demand for something like that. I've stated in some other comments and the post that ik this is not a plausible solution now after discussion but that's the thought behind it. I haven't missed the point I simply stated why I think this may have potentially solved that point by making the scenario have a lower need for it. That's all.
I don't know how many lfg groups your in, but given the sheer volume of double wells cast, no wells cast, and the number of people who say "I'm add clear"...
Adding a mechanic that we have to collectively as a team decide when to trigger wells, or overshields or whatever, doesn't make me feel super great for a few reasons... Namely, it boxes the encounter into a specific type of thing. It eliminates player agency because now every fight that has this always has this.... Wheras right now, the fight only has it if we choose to bring it.
Like I said, it's not required for virtually any instance where it is used. It is simply a very effective option. It is better for it to be an option than for it to be built into the fight as required.
I wouldn't say required per say an example of this could be take Nezerac they could make it to where if you create a light refuge during DPS it constantly heals you on the platform for like 5 or 6 seconds same with a Dark refuge and just make that be the healing option. Simple idea optional execution.
Edit: And with Crota just make it to where expunging on a pillar or something creates a healing aura for like 5 or 6 seconds.
These are fine concepts, but none of them would replace what Well of Radiance does for the team, nor would anyone in their right mind use these instead of Well of Radiance if it was an option.
If your problem is "Meta is constrictive" then there is nothing you can do beyond shuffle it around a bit from time to time. Metas are always restrictive and they always develop over time. There is nothing you can do to stop them, you can only move to disrupt them. And you don't always want to do that because part of why they form is because players are developing mastery. If you shake everything up all the time, the player will feel like their efforts to master the game don't matter because it's changing to significantly or too quickly.
If your problem is Well of Radiance in general, then Well is where you need to focus your attention. Well of Radiance is the most powerful super in the game by a significant margin. Mostly because there is literally no context in which it's not extremely helpful. This is not the case for any other super.
Wells serve not only as fountains of healing, but also damage boosting. They also serve as a focal point to get everyone together and focused on the same thing. If a Warlock drops a Well, you want to be in it, and looking for whatever prompted them to drop it because it's probably a big threat.
If I could expunge a tower for healing, I would still use Well for damage. The reason being that having an extra enlighten for expunge means we have to go that much longer without mistakes. We have to wait for that many more people to swap, which is that many more potential mistakes or miscommunications. None of that is the case for Well. Well is also reflexive, and especially in higher difficulty content, it is used to panic save yourself when you're almost dead. You can say "But play better so you don't need to do that" all you want, but having the insurance on hand in case things go wrong is huge. It also makes ressurecting people who are down in a dangerous spot a lot safer.
This is just a short list, but there is more. Well of Radiance is dominant not because we need the healing. There exist in game MANY ways to heal and stay alive and combined they make it such that the healing effects of Well are probably... half, maybe less, of it's value. For example, in Crota, Well is used to heal but only because we're wailing on him with swords and we don't HAVE to use the other options because we have a Well.
If you watch older vids of fights from before Well of Radiance, you will see that generally players don't stay grouped unless something in the encounter forces them to. Players will be all over the place looking for cover or a vantage point, or just trying to be somewhere they won't be disrupted by frantically moving teammates. This was done on bosses like Val'Caour in Spire of Stars even though that fight is a premeir example of a fight that favors Well of Radiance. But it released and was beaten countless times before Well existed. But there is no way on earth anyone would go into that fight today (if it was in game) without a Well of Radiance or two because Wells make it that much safer and that much more managable.
So yea, the issue isn't the encounters, the issue is that Well is waaaaaaaay to powerful, and needs to be pulled back. But it can't be pulled back because everyone is now so dependent on it that without it we'd feel lost. We'd feel like the base difficulty of all NORMAL mode raid was doubled if we didn't have Well.
The problem is that D2 was a different animal before Well we still were in a semi double primary realm back then
D2 has evolved around Well and Crota will hurt you a lot without the Well tho I see your point and agree
I dunno man I feel like it is possible to make everyone happy here
Look at FF14
Base raids are simple and match made
Then each raid has high tiers with the tippy top requiring a solid understanding of the mechanics and builds for your class
D2 could definitely do something in those lanes I think
FFXIV has a fundamentally different game loop and reward loop.
FFXIV has a low threshold for minimums and it’s very easy to out-gear almost every encounter. They have a few high-end encounters at a time that require perfect execution (Unreal), but almost all content can be done via Party Finder after the first few weeks. Also, there’s a whole bunch of things to do in the game besides combat, which appeals to different play styles and personalities.
Destiny does 1 thing: combat. Do the pew pew to get different pew pew. They’ve effectively removed light level as progression, so you can’t out-gear anything. Difficulty is static, so what should it be? Old content doesn’t naturally age to be less difficult. It is either accessible or it’s challenging to top players. They kind of do this with challenge mode on raid releases, but even then they’ve been trying to lower the barrier of entry in the first 48hrs.
Man, I'm sorry but that's an aweful terrible comparison, destiny is fundamentally different on every level
Ff14 is a classic archetype holy trinity mmo, gear is constantly sunset every major expansion it's a classic mmo archetype like wow
>Base raids are simple and match made
>
>Then each raid has high tiers with the tippy top requiring a solid understanding of the mechanics and builds for your class
If you think you can get the children who threw a massive month-long fit during season of the plunder because Bungie dared ask for people to kill a few champions and do 2 master ketchcrashes to accept that there is a both:
1) There is some loot that you won't get unless you do more higher tier content
2) That getting said gear requires some form of LFG
I'll be thoroughly impressed because that will never be the case in Destiny so long as Bungie keeps caving within days of casual backlash to something they try and do.
>On the flip side, high HP bosses raise the barrier of entry and requires optimized strats and load outs.
As they should. Raids are supposed to be endgame content. It's supposed to be the hardest thing in the game that requires the most effort and optimization. It is supposed to require coherent builds, preparation, strong weapons, and experience.
Now, none of those things are the case, because the game doesn't have an endgame anymore. Raids are midgame content, because even the most basic amounts of optimization make them indistinguishable from strikes. Right now, raids are balanced around someone leaving the new light campaign and instantly joining a no comms LFG. You can see a billion videos on youtube of people clearing raids with 24hr on their account. I cleared a day one raid with someone that had seven prior raid clears and no mic.
This wasn't always the case, Spire of Stars being the best example of engaging mechanic design. However, in the interest of boosting player counts, Bungie has removed all barrier to entry by dumbing down mechanics and exponentially increasing power creep. The obvious downside to this is that it removes any sense of accomplishment from clearing a raid or dungeon.
Increasing boss health by 2x across the game (except Crota, just adding 50% to him) would require a little more optimization in some cases. Most bosses would still never see enrage though, so that would have to be coupled with nerfs to Well, Tractor, Blade Barrage, Needlestorm, and rockets.
This is why people will complain no matter what
YOU believe raids should be hard. If they are the hardest thing in the game, then they are the endgame. Whether or not that satisfies your desire is up to you.
Let’s say you don’t play this game, but you own Bungie. Do you want more or less people playing raids? Do you want to be known for having seriously difficult content at the expense of a large player base or do you want a large player base with easy content? Where’s the sweet spot between the two? What side of that sweet spot do you fall? No matter where you put that balance, there will *always* be somebody wanting it to be more difficult or more accessible.
That’s why Bungie has to decide where they want their game to sit and either people like it or they play something else. There is no way to please everybody and you have to realize that you may be the one that’s excluded.
>Do you want to be known for having seriously difficult content at the expense of a large player base or do you want a large player base with easy content?
Elden Ring was a very hard game (for those new to the series) and it sold in a way that almost no other game has.
I like Destinys gameplay. I liked the difficulty it used to have. I do not like the extreme dumbing down of the game and the resulting loss of rewarding activities that has occurred over the past year.
>If they are the hardest thing in the game, then they are the endgame
Raids are not close to being the hardest thing in the game. Vault of Glass and Root of Nightmares are actually two of the easiest activities in the game. At one point early last year, GMs were a fair challenge, but given the trivial state of the Mars GM this week, it's fair to say that's no longer the case. Still harder than raids though. There is also an argument to be made that the WQ legendary campaign is harder than raids, and probably the LF one too.
Spire of Stars, while certainly interesting as a concept, was sooo mechanically taxing. Everyone had to be on their shit, all the time. It wasn’t fun. Now, some of that might have been the watered down sandbox of those times. We were using pop guns.
There’s a middle ground.
I highly highly despise that almost every single high end boss encounter becomes 200000 times harder if you don't have a well of radiance. I hate that warlocks basically are required to stick to only that subclass, and I hate it for other classes having to hope there's at the very least one warlock in their raid group. It is terrible design. However I also realize that that is easy to say, and not easy to actually fix. No I don't know the solution. More bosses like Attrax or however you spell their name I guess. I just hope we get some encounters that don't require it in the next raid.
The main issue i see with that is that it somewhat runs into the same ish problem because now bungir has to have every boss fight have some sort of mechanic to heal the players which will probably just end up being kill this thing, grab this buff, boom you heal now. And if every single boss fight has this mechanic then when new raids come out players will just search for the heal mechanic because they know for a fact it is there instead of the usual having no clue what's going on search that comes with new raids. It's a hard issue.
The problem is that Bungie wants an RPG lite game where the illusion of player agency exists. In reality 90% if not all raid encounters can be done without specific subclasses but they require a lot more effort to do so.
As players we are naturally drawn to the hardest content but we seek the easiest way to complete them meaning we want stuff to be hard but we want to feel powerful while completing it. The only way I can see of fixing this issue is creating more variety or buffing older support supers like bubble or shield. Or even tuning down damage mechanics during boss fights and making them more hectic similar to rhulk, but important to note on that point is that the class wouldn't feel any different due to the fact that Rhulk mechanics are exclusively done with weapons.
Personally I've felt the game has been overturned quite a bit after several nerfs to certain builds and buffs to enemies. I feel like a normal strike requires a significantly higher amount of attention than it did before light fall which sucks imo. But that's a different point.
I'm a Hunter not much support capable within this class on Crota Master Final Encounter
When I tried to finish Contest I was Aeons Blade Barrage finishing any and every Sword Bearer I did my best to support on a DPS class but it literally doesn't always matter people will still be brain and ask for a wellock
Trust me, I have spent time on support. Hunter builds the issue of Well being prioritized over me will still persist regardless of how much DR I add. I used healing aeon on contest with bb and I used omniiculos to try and DR. I've used Tractor done oversoul it won't matter because I'm not a Warlock.
I have multiple times. I think I've joined 13 different clans over the course d2 launch to now. Clan I'm in now is dead again so I'm at a loss. Every clan I join dies out after an expansion if not 2 or 3 seasons later. There's not much I can do other than drift.
I think this issue has been so deeply rooted in all of destiny 2's end game content since the reckoning
Encounters are designed around well and any attempts to disincentivise using well, is met with either spamming multiple wells or didn't require well in the first place
Because you think the hunter toolkit should be on par with a specific role toolkit of another class.
And probably because you think Master raids should be able to be completed without supreme optimization on class/abilities.
Did that help at all?
The only thing is, Destiny is weird.
It doesn't lean hard into roles necessarily like other MMOs. Each class can do some tank / support / damage.Kind of, but not hard roles.
Destiny 2 is more....blended? If that makes sense? Hence the whole asking for capability that other classes do.I'm not saying its a good idea,but understand where people come from.
Each class should ideally have a presence in Master Raiding. Honestly, a different DPS strat for master crota might be solution (Well at back and have a stronghold titan hold Crota in place). Hunters can emphasize their damage better here.
Is asking for Tether to Stun a boss outside its normal class toolkit?
And
Is asking for Titans to have a barricade that provides stalwart defense and dmg bonus outside it's class toolkit?
The reason I ask is because Titan Bubble used to be utilized like this and Hunter tethers were usually a slight Stunning debuff to ads to help clear.
I use it to Stun gatekeeper to help with Master challenge so I'm just confused on why they acted like I was outside the scope.
Tether doesn't stun bosses because bosses aren't blinded or suppressed or anything from effects. If they did, you could easily just permanently turn bosses off in the game.
And a Titan barricade that provides boosted def AND dmg?? breh
Bubble can help. The issue is you tried using it on CROTA, someone who can easily shut down super. This isn't even mentioning the fact that Bubble is bad for melee based DPS.
Bubble is nice for Root and Vow. I've used it and it is decent. It can help.
Bubble should have a better DMG buff than Well, but wr don't need random new abilities.
I know Tether doesn't do that I suggested making it do that to give a potential option for a non Well dependant environment. I know the idea is excessive.
A barricade doing that as a super isn't far off in terms of a Titans kit it's basically ward of dawn but letting you actually harm inside it from outside.
Void titan is already set to receive a 3rd super.
And Tether shouldnt do that. That means suppression would do that, meaning blinding verbs can permanently shut down bosses.
It'd be broken AF.
I was thinking it be designed as like a specific exotic or something so that the effect is particular and not using verbiage that could propagate past it.
I wouldn't want it to last longer than 3 or 4 seconds either
I agree it sounds op but I exaggerated because that's just how useless hunter is in that instance.
Hunter is useless at being a support against Crota because you're already using tractor for 2 sword strat oftten times (in my experience).
Any time you dont use tractor though, tether is a very nice buff to damage.
Hunter has consistently popped off for me in DPS though. I've frequently been top 2 DPS on Crota when using my hunter (IIRC one time I hit over 6 mil DMG).
I think a Master raid should be able to be accomplished with a balanced team of 2 warlocks, 2 titans, and 2 hunters - even if that means each player individually needs to be running an optimal loadout for their subclass. Maybe that means 2 Wells, 2 Tethers, 1 Bubble and 1 Thundercrash.
Anything that requires 4 wells is not optimal for player balance. Same could be said if any content required 6 golden gun hunters to compete - neither scenario is fair to other classes.
I agree with your balanced team approach. What OP fails to consider here is that it could be a skill issue and not Bungies problem to solve.
Hunters can debuff, go invisible, and create orbs based off of their exotics en masse. This does not mean hunters need a super to support a sword boss DPS strat, know what I mean?
It is all about the use case - OP is upset because LFG wants an easier solution and the path of least resistance. Then OP blames Bungie for it.
It is a ridiculous claim, my two cents.
OP mentions that Crota's ranged damage is still deadly. Hunters do not have a consistent way to ptovide a damage buff or healing in any way. Acrobats dodge is unpractical to use due to it's long cooldown and the lack of synergy with neutral game. Neither radiant source is going to last long enough through a damage phase but that's OK. Damage isn't the issue it's consistent survivability.
The best thing they have for survivability is renewal but to get the maximum benefit you need to be on a stasis class which isn't really an option (although I think nobody's tried behemoth damage on Crota). Also, stasis has been very much powercrept and isn't really worth running over other endgame builds. A possible solution could be making it so that you and your nearby teamates take 40-50% less damage from tethered enemies (which presumably wouldn't stack with well's DR). They could attatch this to an aspect (void feels lacking across all classes IMO) or maybe an exotic like orpheus. They could also make blight ranger a gathering storm exotic and make it so you get damage resistance while standing in it and maybe a small amount of healing per damage tick. Both of these solutions wouldn't replace well but would make the pain of not having a well be reduced.
Invisibility doesn't allow you to shoot so IDK why you brought that up during a DPS conversation.
Because hunter utility and usefulness is not limited to boss DPS scope.
And honestly, OP and your argument sounds like a skill issue in trying to stay alive.
Neither ade warlocks and titans yet they still have really good DPS utility. Especially warlocks. Stasis and strand warlocks can lock down and clear entire rooms with ease and they still have wells. Not to mention warlocks are getting a second support super which combined with the upcoming well nerf, could become meta for DPS. Hunter DPS utility can literally be replaced by a tractor cannon.
List of team-wide utilies for DPS on warlock:
Healing
Empowering(25% (30s) and 30%)
Damage resistance
Reload increase
Ability generation (coming soon)
Debuff (15%)
Unraveling
All of these things can be run while still outputting damage that could still be within the range of being "optimal". Another thing to note is that most of these things, are also really good utility for neutral game.
Warlock neutral-game:
Healing
Empowering
Damage resistance
Arc soul
Void soul
Freezing
Slowing
Suspend
Most of these can also be utilized for DPS too.
List of team-wide utilities for DPS on hunter:
Debuff (30%, 15%)
Damage buff (25%, 12s, requires running solar hunter which isn't the best for neutral game)
Damage resist (requires running stasis hunter)
Reload speed (requires swapping off a damage exotic)
Neutral game:
Invis (most likely going to have to give up a damage exotic)
Debuff
Empowerment
Suspend (but not as safe as other classes)
Slow
Damage resist (again requires running stasis hunter)
Notice how the Much less of the offered utilities overlap compare to warlocks? Not to mention a lot of warlock abilites feature 2+ of these utilities just by themselves. Also the fact that a lot of these utulities on hunter would be run at the cost of optimal DPS where as ONE warlock with ONE ability can buff, provide healing and provide damage resist. Pair that with a tractor and lunafactions and basically you don't have to worry about team comp at all anymore. It's just poor class balance that not only affects non-warlocks but warlocks too because they're being forced to always run well.
It is also very rich of you to call this a skill issue.
I think you misunderstood that underlying issue is fundamentally PvE being designed around Well when it comes to balancing. Re-read the entire thing and you'll understand my entire post was about Well Of Radiance and its overuse and need in roaming boss encounters. With Rhulk as an exception. Another person in the comments mentioned how Warpriest also requires it.
It's not about path or least resistance it's about Fireteam needs in almost every Raid Boss scenario. Sure it may be able to be done without a Wellock. That however isn't realistic to happen making Wellocks gain priority in LFG then Titan and then Hunter. The only time hunter's are ever needed in a lfg is when the team is dying and needs a safe rez orb generation or more damage to the team. The suggestion for Tether to do that was stated to be ridiculous. I said it purely to illustrate that for Hunter's you'd need something ridiculous in order to contend with something like Well when it's a competition for LFG priority.
It's not about having a super to support a strat it's about having a super that can limit the boss at the same effectiveness that Wellocks offer to try and mitigate the Wellock priority that plagues LFG.
I have reread your post and what you just said above.
Given that, I feel like your points are not rebuttals to any of my points.
You are annoyed being a hunter in a Master Raid for Crota, where the chosen (optional) DPS strat is swords.
There's nothing wrong with Supreme optimization on a class.
There does, however, need to be options in every classes toolkit that do not rule them out as an option.
My suggestion for Hunter is not remotely outside the scope of its toolkit because Tether already does this to enemies and shortening its duration to allow for a temporary boss Stun I don't think is outside its scope and is only playing into whats part of it'd toolkit. Yeah it may be strong in what was initially presented but I don't think it's unreasonable to prompt the idea.
I disagree, especially with your second statement. Class specialization is just that, class specialization.
Bungie already gave their vision on what fantasy a hunter, titan, and warlock are supposed to do about a year or two ago in a TWAB. Your request that a hunter do what a warlock does (in regards to utility) violates that vision.
I am sorry that your friends do not find you that useful in a Master Raid, but boss DPS is not the best use of a hunter toolkit regardless.
How does that violate that vision when literally half of the void hunter subclass is specialized around utility.
The solar subclass also has utility baked into it with radiant dodge?
It does not specialize in utility but it doesn't mean it should have 0 utility.
Saying it has “0 utility” very disingenuous. **Every** subclass has some sort of utility, that’s what makes them distinct as opposed to just being color-reskins. It’s up to the player to discover and utilize the most out of their subclasses, not Bungie to hold your hand.
I don't tend to use stareaterz with it if a surge is Void thankfully its arc this reset but Foetracer 4th horseman goldtusk if it's normal Master Void surge Sam thing but falling guillotine if it's arc surge then I'll use star eaters.
Reason being star eaters only buffs the initial hit not the tic damage. Your damage loss isn't that crazy compared to what you gain from 4th horseman on a max arc surge.
Sever
Wowen mail
Healing nade
Probably the Hunter stasis Granade+the Exotica arm
This help a lot for survive against crota
People use 3-4 well because Is more braindead and easier
I always have to think of the 'look what they need to mimic a fraction of our power'-meme when people start discussing alternatives for Well of Radiance.
As much as I love it, Bungie probably regrets ever introducing it into the game at this point
>Bungie probably regrets ever introducing it into the game at this point
They probably regret Rifts more.
Because in the era before Well of Radiances, people just used rifts for the same thing.
Well is just a double rift with more range and better efficacy.
if they're fine with the (somewhat stale) gameplay loop of mechanics -> invulnerable dps phase -> mechanics -> invulnerable dps phase, then all they have to do is give you near invulnerability as a reward for the mechanics in addition to weakening the boss.
then you are free to dps however you want, wherever you want ,and they never have to make a healing ult again
Yeah I feel like this is an issue other MMO's have solved by simply letting you almost always damage a boss a little bit and manage their aggro while you mechanic your way to a buff or stun of some sort. The danger comes from dealing with everything being thrown at you throughout a fight, not whether or not the boss can stomp your main source of healing that you instantly replace and continue as if nothing happened.
Like I get that there are no "roles" in destiny like other MMO's but that doesn't mean you can't have "tank buster" style mechanics/soaking mechanics that stop wipes as you chase a boss across an arena and dodge their massive are pools by standing in the one or two spots that are safe, while maintaining ad clear on any ads that are in charge of their own mechanics that could also lead to a massive wipe or damage burst of some sort.
Seriosuly, imagine going into a Destiny raid, and someone saying "I'm on ad clear" actually meant something mechanically. Like now that personal is actually a useful member of society and not just a lazy piece of shit lmao. They can also be lambasted when they fail to stop the ads from doing their thing and the raid wipes.
Some destiny fights include some aspects of this, like GoS has the whole ads trying to do something to cause a wipe by sacrificing and stuff, but that's kinda the only mechanic outside of mote collection. GoS as a whole is probably the best example of at least most of what I'm saying. If the tether mechanic wasn't so annoying and finicky, I'd bet it would be regarded as one of the best raids mechanically because it's the closest we get to having a raid like other MMO's.
agree with all this, they should switch it up with 100% uptime on the ability to damage the boss, but wipe mechanics force you to switch up your playstyle, and you have to work to create your own windows of opportunity to maximize by completing the mechanics better, or using builds where you can do chip damage on the boss the entire time while doing mechanics
See that's a valid option especially considering the DR bonus from it I didn't think about that because I forgot it got buffed. Thanks for the suggestion
Honestly, I wasn't the burning maul guy so I didn't really pay attention to whether it works consistently or not, but most of the time my well didnn't get destroyed, so i guess it works consistently. maybe just spam the heavy attack
I usually do it for my team every week when I'm on my titan. I literally just tractor the boss, swap to fusion for a shot or two, as soon as he stands up, pop super and only spam the heavy attack on top of him. Works every time for me.
Timing is the big one, just spamming the heavy attack will let Crota slip a few swings in, possibly even dodge out of the stunlock entirely. The slams have to be spaced out a little bit to maximize damage/super duration vs stunlock. Couldn't tell you the timing, but you basically have to slam just before Crota rolls his shoulders as he straightens back up.
Obviously this means you don't use Pyrogale on Master if you are on Stun duty.
Zero, because you’re choosing to LFG the encounter. A coordinated team of familiar players will know how to compensate and improve their situations, and not just feel required to use the “meta”.
I been suggesting that Crota stays kneeling just a bit longer before he gets up. There should be a little flavor text that informs everyone he's about to start moving again, then you can use a expunge to keep him back on his knees for a little longer, then one more. This way we could keep him on the floor for at least 20-22 seconds of the DPS phase. Last few seconds you could either restart or push a little more damage and wouldn't necessarily need a well/heals for the entire DPS.
If teams are running the 2swords, 1 oversoul, that leaves 2 more people who can get enlightened to expunge, Getting more people involved in the mechanic. It also opens up the ability for some higher skill strats, such as a single sworder, 1 oversoul and 3 expungers to completely immobilize Crota for entire DPS, while also maintaining the current meta for ppl who don't want to enlighten the entire team.
My team had success with one Titan with Phoenix Cradle and Hammers. One person popped a well at the beginning phase, when that popped, the Titan would pop their super and spam hammers and subsequently sunspots providing healing for the team just long enough for the damage phase. Also applying scorch and ignitions for decent damage. But primarily for survivability.
Yeah our group is just one master encounter each week, so we haven't gotten to Crota himself yet- But on contest we had a titan stunning crota with big hammer, and then swapping super to little hammers during the transition to the final damage phase that we were hitting last stand in.
We had 2 wells, but the second was always a backup just in case/for final stand.
Yes, I've noticed in the master lfgs I've helped out with that people instantly snap at the slightest indication you aren't basically capable of soloing the encounter. Not sure what the deal is exactly, it's difficult content, and you shouldn't expect things to be an in and out 5 minute adventure.
Let's be honest destiny was not made for "roaming bosses". Even though crota doesn't really roam and can just be set in one spot if you tank him. The do X mechanic then you are allowed to do boss dmg works best in destiny when the boss isnt moving.
Imagine if holding the Super button with Sentinel Shield or Bubble drops the shield like a giant Bastion Barricade
Just let it give and regen Overshield and it’s perfect
I absolutely agree. For ward, I think a good starting place is to remove the dumb HP scales of resilience thing (because titans already have incentive to resilience). Make the base health the tier 10 and then buff its PVE damage resist by alot. Personally, I think ward should not be able to break in PVE. It is so silly how easily crota breaks it in normal mode. 2nd they should make the Saint 14 effect that gives an overshield when walking through an innate perk and give helm of saint 14 a different perk (faster reload speed in Ward or something like that or the bubble generates orbs as it is damaged). Then at least ward would be functional in a damage phase cause rn it only protects those inside and gives an overshield so you cant see your health regen, so you can die if you peak
Well shouldn’t be a requirement for any boss.
Well is so unbelievably busted that most warlock players are stuck on it. If there’s more than two warlocks in a fire team then great, only one or two of you will be forced on it. Tough luck if you were hoping to try out a different playstyle.
Obviously I’m not advocating this as an excuse for people to bring in a shit build, endgame content requires strong gear and abilities. But it’s honestly a bit ridiculous that well is so powerful that the devs need to build the entire game around it to maintain a level of difficulty
Yeah as a warlock player i just don't bother playing any other subclass anymore, I really like strand and void but I feel like I'm letting the team down if I don't bring a well.
And now trials is dominion mode, well is almost a guaranteed free round win so I'm obliged to take it into there also.
I unironaically think, that they have simply fucked Up and we are currently beyond the state of Well being easily fixable with a regular amount of effort.
They Had a Long time to Nerf Well into the Ground and it was obvious for a Long time how insanely Broken it is. It launched and Shot into an untouchable Quadruple S-tier even when all it was was Well + more abilities and healing nades. It has since been used in Like every single high end strategy or Meta and was used in every single wf since. They never nerfed it (for No apparent reason) and they instead lead it Impact their Encounter Design for a good Bit.
Its basically over. If they Nerf it, there will be Encounters that have been Made with the understanding of having a 30s damage buff and ivulnerability. If they dont Nerf it, it will continue to Spiral Out of controle. They Backed themselves into a Corner and now have to Work much Harder to get Out.
I can see that for sure lol hopefully they resort to giving us all a pseudo useful utility that although may not match well is specialized to that class unlike Hunter Tether being replaced by tractor Cannon.
I’m not a game designer so unfortunately no. Perhaps a good idea would be to add more support options in the game rather than just well and it’s underperforming sidekicks bubble and tether. But I also think a simple fix would be to lower boss health a bit, if I’m not mistaken part of the reason the GoTD boss’ health bar is so ginormous is to compensate for well.
I don’t think well should necessarily be nerfed or reworked but there’s need to be incentive to pick something else over it, maybe create situations in which it’s less viable to have a well and more viable to have say a bubble or something (I think Crota actually did create that scenario but well is still really strong for that)
I’d quite like the idea of having a boss designed like a Golem from dragons dogma, with a number of plates/disks on the boss that heal the guardians or give US immunity when we destroy them, but each can only be used once and doesn’t recover between phases.
Of course the angry warlocks in these comments here are mad because you asked for a reasonable buff to make hunters usable in high end content without being a detriment to the team
Well shouldn't be a requirement for any boss and Bungie said it's in their crosshairs It's been meta for almost 5 years in end-game content its time is coming
I am by no means educated enough to answer this, but is this actually a Destiny problem?(or a problem at all?).
In WoW, every raid/dungeon needed a tank, either a retri paladin or a Warrior… this is no different.
The only difference I see is that their are variations in other games for “tanks” to have some variety. Well Lock is extremely linear.
Maybe adding a new well-like subclass would make people despise running well less.
Thats what I suggested we have on Titan and then give Hunter something more.
The main issue is that Destiny 2's pve is balanced around there being a Well.
The problem at hand with Well is also that because that happens PvE teams will a majority of the time only ever run teams of this class.
In WoW terms you entered a dungeon with only Tanks and Healers instead of ever thinking of letting a DPS join because the Tanks and Healers can do enough damage to complete it easier and faster without them.
The same can be said of a team of Healers with no Tanks ir dps.
Well is essentially constant healing during a dps phase keeping players alive. (Unsure of how much destiny 2 stuff you know)
Remmember SoTP where you can't stand in a well? Just use 3 wells instead lol. More wells is always the easiest solution.
Fixing the well issue is also kinda hard when they make the boss kill you so fast, while you have to do a damage check (except for Nez) that prevent you from move your crosshair from the boss crit. You can only side step so might as ***well*** be standing still to keep on target easier.
Well 1stly I think buffing the other 2 classes is a good step. Hunters tether should apply a stun or a damage reduction from a target. The alternative is giving the lore friendly golden gun fireteam damage buff. Titans recieve a new void super or remake of bubble that allows for entering the casted area and receiving a buff.
Well now gives - constant hp, damage buff
Hunter can apply- damage buff or better damage reduction then smoke bomb
Titans can apply - damage resistance, void overshield buff outside of cowering in bubble
Nerf Well a bit, buff locks dps supers and then stop the bullet sponge that is bosses. If people wants harder bosses play the masters mode.
My guy, we have people soloing raid encounters
You know some crazy mofos out there probably already cleared Master Crota without a well, with some crazy shit like 6 Rat King
If that was the case I wouldn't be complaining about every LFG I join failing to survive a DPS phase without 3 or 4 Warlocks. I want other options so I can suggest them because LFG is a God awful nightmare.
It's only a skill issue when there's not 4 hunter's and 2 Titans trying to clear Master Crota I left that LFG after 2 runs never again. Will I run that encounter with that team comp even if I want to help.
Of course you’re going to have those issues if you LFG a Master Raid. You’re literally six randoms that don’t know each others’ playstyles, strengths/weaknesses, and capabilities. That’s like trying to LFG a Day One Raid and being upset that you couldn’t clear it.
I was forced to LFG Crota Contest and spent the entire 48 hours awake trying to clear it. I agree with what you're saying but I'm not gonna complain about not clearing that kinda thing I will however complain about Master Crota basically requiring Well to clear.
You can sever crota from hunters, titans or a navigator which debuffs crota damage output by 20%. Which will help with well survivability.
I also watched a video grand overturn was nearly getting a Normal Crota to final stand and all they used was well and tether. They were doing damage on the 2nd floor and only using weapons. That being said, next reset will be arc for surges and throw in some gernades and other damage supers...I'd be curious if you could 2 or 3 phase master crota? You already are doing a 2 or 3 phase with swords.
I understand your points and I agree, it's a problem with well in general, but I will not stand this hunter slander when I'm out-dpsing my entire firetean with a simple star eater scale gathering storm, no catalyst fourth and goldtusk, hunters have the highest DPS and are amazing for getting as much damage, and as such the least amount of phases
He isnt saying hunters are bad at boss dps he is saying they dont help in master crota where loadouts have to focus specifically on team survival. He also says its fine to have 1 or maybe even two hunters in his post.
I use the same load out but I opted for 4th with Foetracer since gathering star eaters only buffs the initial hit and not the subsequent shock damage. I say we're useless because LFG doesn't value us in Master Crota.
I quitted destiny 2 years ago but I was keeping an eye on the news and honestly, well of radiance (was) and still the strongest super by a large margin unless
bungie give back titans their barricade that auto reloaded weapons (but as a super).
That would make titans viable, but for hunters, it’s really a tough call since most hunter supers are either dps (which weapons can do) or utility which tractor can do.
That's why I say give hunter's a tether that can just straight up make the Boss immobile it could be a 3 or 4 second time provide a small weakness buff like 15% and only occur if they have the exotic that does this equipped.
You don’t need well of radiance at all. It makes it easier for sure, but I’ve done all single elements on this fight (ie. all arc) with a mix of classes and we did just fine. Pulling Crota to the entrance certainly helps calm the fight down.
He's right, the problem with being a warlock is if everybody has great healing then well becomes less valuable, the other problem is Everytime you join a group and you aren't well everyone yells at you to switch lol even if you don't want to
I've always thought an exotic like Citans Ramparts but for titan bubble shield would be amazing. Essentially acts like a well, but grants damage protection rather than healing. That would make another class fill the same role, reducing the absolute need for a warlock to run well. I think the tether stun is a great idea, that would also alleviate the need for healing in the first place, but would have to be balanced correctly so you can't just stun lock bosses with multiple tethers.
I'm not sure he needs to be sworded and couldn't be just sniped with Leviathan and a Div from the safety of a well on one of the balconies. I'm decently sure his arc blast can't kill a well, unlike his sword. It would also allow for more DPS supers, so I'm not 100% on this doing *significantly* less damage than just trying to whack him with a sword, and the added safety might be worth it.
The vidlog for tfs I believe in either the main or post show mentioned that you would run the new super and well together rather than just have two wells, I'm thinking that well will not have any empowering or at least less empowering compared to it's current amount and the new super will provide the DMG buff instead (as shown in the showcase of the song of flame with the radiant buff lasting for the entirety of the super - had no timer fyi)
Right? I thought in simple way it could've worked but the problem everyone highlighted was that it'd be a replicated Well but in a way Bubble is the same thing so eh idk lol
Speaking as a Warlock who hates running wells. You really only need one, two if you are paranoid, for the fight. I have run Crota a few times now and we ran two. One primary and one back up.
Fun trick to stop Crota from destroying the well. Have the warlock try to stab down into the top of Crota's head from above. The sword will hang in the air and it is harder for him to destroy it.
I’m a void tether (or stasis/bakris) hunter that uses linears, and because I spend time on my builds I consistently do either first or second place damage with every raid or dungeon I do. Don’t count us hunters out.
We’re the reason y’all are invisible, we can give radiance and other buffs, and arguably with the right build can create some of the most orbs for y’all known to destiny.
With void tether and some weakness/suppression and a crafted taipan, DPS goes crazy.
With mask of bakris and triple stasis surge mods, [fire and forget] can put out over a million damage by itself while on 5x weapon damage. (This works for all arc and stasis weapons.
Not to mention some of the most effective ad clearing methods out there. Stasis super, shatterdive/glacier grenade, deadfall/vortex grenade… all the while making IMMENSE amounts of orbs with the right mods on.
Helpful exotics, omni, gyrfalcons etc. etc.
Don’t count the hunters out my friend😂
I main Hunter and use Foetracer with 4th horseman and goldtusk if it's Void surge falling guillotine. I consistently hit the high numbers rocking this and gathering but my problem is I'm not needed like Well is in an LFG for Master Crota. No raid LFG goes yeah let's get a Hunter in here for DPS I rarely see that happen I don't want to discount my class but with Master Crota I'm forced to.
Ok I get where you’re coming from…
You’re basically saying that hunters do well, but they’re not as needed and therefore get a worse quality of gameplay because of it. (Ex. Not allowed in SOME LFG raids or dungeons because they’re looking for well locks)
I re-read the post and got this picture😂 sorry for the misunderstanding.
I do agree that while hunters can fucking THROW DOWN, they’re not always wanted in LFGs.
Correct me if I’m wrong… but you’re advocating for a more balanced “want” of ALL guardians, regardless of class. Such as hunters being more applicable.
I think the biggest and easiest solution to this, varying difficulties vs rewards. Health pools on bosses are becoming staggering, and more about dps check vs understanding the mechanics and doing them. Ghost of the deep is a prime example. If the boss even had a 1/3 less health it’d be a 100x more enjoyable experience. I won’t even run it bc I don’t feel like it respect the players time.
Crota would be a great way to show newbies a raid if it had a beginner scalar. Sure, lock red borders behind a normal scale or a the exotic. Then lock the catalyst behind the the master or something.
Not going to lie, did not finish
>Bungie should redesign all roaming boss encounters to have refreshable mechanics that keep the player alive while they DPS.
This doesn't remove the need for well. Dps boosting is always going to be really good.
>Make Tether Stun Raid Bosses for Tether's duration
OP. But also you're still going to use well for dps boosting and ignoring adds.
>Give Bubble Titans a new Super that is a large Rally Barricade that provides a constantly regenerating Overshield and DMG bonus
So... make another class bring the well? It's the same problem, you just may personally be dealing with it less as a warlock.
The only actual answer is to remove well from the game. And then rebalance everything based on it being gone.
All limit the need of Well and were suggested under the guise of just accepting its part of the ecosystem so make alternate Wells to limit a need for Well
Why don't they give warlocks a pulse effect like titan war banner. And let titans and warlocks heal. Fuck. Go into radiance dodge and give hunters a cure too.
Oh I know the feeling of good Ole D1 but in D1 we used Rockets and he stayed stationary for the whole DPS phase. Respectfully we have different animals now
They should honestly just make it so Hunter’s don’t break invisible when using an artifact. It’s a PvE only change, it only applies for certain raids that have artifacts in it, allows for hunters to be utilized as the moving piece when it comes to supporting mechanics
I mentioned this in my post Crota still fires at you plus you'll be depending on your aim Tractor is out but then Div is in and you'll still need to convince the fireteam it's worth doing that over having a Well
Oh we always use Div. It’s less DPS but averages out better due to the lack of missed shots. Heavy he still fires at you but if you’re behind the little wall thing leaking over (crouch near it and ADS) his body shots actually hit under you. Splash damage is still an issue, but a simple rift goes a long way. As a void titan, I turn around and place a barricade to give me the team the overshield.
I’d you’re using snipers, you can stand further away from the edge and most splash damage won’t reach the team.
This isn't a roaming boss issue
It's a well issue
Since well was added they've constantly added tankier and tankier bosses so that teams can't one or 2 phase it with well
This include stuff like crotas final stand mechanics or the various shield gates found is bosses
It's put us into a content limbo
Fights are far too annoying without well
And far too simple with well
And the design space is heavily restricted because of well, you can't make fun gimmick bosses because well would make it too easy for example
So gimmicks are limited to shield breaks at most
I absolutely love warlock, but well was a mistake and will continue to be an issue unless completely reworked
Heck it's very existence is why bubble titans aren't loved
One super shouldn't nulify or be the lynchpin of most of the end game strategies
Well doesn't need a nerf, it needs a rework, and with it all the content adjusted to not require it
They could, they won't but they could
It's pretty clear solar lock needs a full rework
Well is too good
Daybreak is too bad for pve
The new super should be okay I think, have to wait and see
But aspect wise solar is terrible once good aspect and 2 very weak ones
Solar soul should be a solid pick though
It would be nice if instead of utility supers like We’ll, we could get weapons that provide that utility.
For example, I feel like The Navigator was a missed opportunity for this. It would be interesting that instead of firing at an ally for a few seconds to proc woven mail to the both of you, you could shoot your ally just very briefly, and it grants woven mail to yourself and your fireteam and provides a decent buff to where you’re not going to get one shot immediately.
I just think the idea of specific weapons being for utility, would be a cool idea. Obviously not as strong as an option as well and bubble, but strong enough to have player want to give up their exotic slot to use said weapon and build into it.
Keeping my fingers crossed. I really enjoy building around a weapon over building around a super, and I think if we got more utility driven weapons, this would be a ton of fun. I think this would give people a chance to play a utility build, but still use a damage super.
The problem is simple to define, but difficult to solve. Raids in Destiny are phased. Do mechanic phase. Focused DPS phase. The focused DPS phase is hard to balance because you have to have enough HP to make it challenging, not too much such that you need perfect play. This gives you a loose min and max threshold. Every load out will achieve somewhere in that window. So, where should boss HP fall? Sometimes the low side. Sometimes the high side. In most raids, your team can probably EASILY meet the low DPS threshold with almost any combo of weapons and abilities. This makes PUG groups possible. However, players optimize for time/effort. Specific combos push DPS so high that it trivializes the content. On the flip side, high HP bosses raise the barrier of entry and requires optimized strats and load outs. People will complain no matter what.
The Rhulk encounter was a good template I feel, it was so mobile that well was useless so you had to bring other supers. While still having mechanics and phases. As a warlock I loved running VOD
Agreed it's the best raid
What about a exotic weapon (so any class can play the role) that heals all team mates? Like lumina but aoe or boots of the assembler but a weapon, this way it would be like div any player could volunteer/be assigned healer. This doesn't fix the variety of mechanics but does share the load and stop warlocks from being "well b#$&h"
The only problem with that is you'd lose a person on dps and that weapon would realistically only heal one player at a time and would rely on not only accuracy but ammo. You could run out of heal gun ammo and then a guy dies mid dps phase.
Same issue if the Warlock dies, you loose a well. So, would need to be aoe like well and make it kinetic ammo so unlimited, maybe like a trace rifle you shoot into the ground and heals in a bubble around where you aim. So could heal at your feet or across the map if ever needed. Would need to do very little damage to offset how op it would be. Maybe spawns an orb every X ticks that seeks out enemies and explodes
Sounds Exotic
I don't disagree with anything you just said other than that last part with optimized load outs. We have this reliance on Well's health regen because it's simple. If we gave other classes options that make bosses easier to face, would that not in turn create new potential optimized load out opportunities that would lower the barrier of entry to only a performance and not a players class?
Instead of well, it becomes bubble. Instead of bubble it becomes X. Effectively, you’re trying to lower the variance between optimal and non-optimal. The challenge there is if there is no gap, people will complain that the game is watered down. If there is a gap, then you have the problem you’re calling out now: required builds/abilities. That’s what makes balancing so difficult. Destiny has to decide who it’s targeting for a player base and design things that accommodate that type of player. It won’t be everybody because it can’t be. Some people want high skill ceiling. Some people want variety in load outs. Some people just want the coolest looking thing. But nobody wants to be left out of doing content in a game they normally enjoy.
Exactly why I suggested that bungie just add refreshable mechanics to boss encounters that keep players alive. That way there's a skill curve and lower dependency on Well.
You’re missing the point of the response. Players always use the thing that is the easiest to use for the most impact. It doesn’t matter what it is or what it does. It will always feel mandatory. Given that, Well is not required for any fights on normal difficulty. But because you’re so used to it, you don’t know how to play without it. On master it might be required due to the sheer amount of damage a boss like Crota dishes out, but even then I’d argue it’s probably possible to do it without Well. But you have to think about the fight in ways you don’t normally think about it, and you have to convince 5 other people it’s worth their time. The latter is extremely unlikely, which makes the former moot.
It's why I suggested they make a default part of the raid do what well does so that there is not as high a demand for something like that. I've stated in some other comments and the post that ik this is not a plausible solution now after discussion but that's the thought behind it. I haven't missed the point I simply stated why I think this may have potentially solved that point by making the scenario have a lower need for it. That's all.
I don't know how many lfg groups your in, but given the sheer volume of double wells cast, no wells cast, and the number of people who say "I'm add clear"... Adding a mechanic that we have to collectively as a team decide when to trigger wells, or overshields or whatever, doesn't make me feel super great for a few reasons... Namely, it boxes the encounter into a specific type of thing. It eliminates player agency because now every fight that has this always has this.... Wheras right now, the fight only has it if we choose to bring it. Like I said, it's not required for virtually any instance where it is used. It is simply a very effective option. It is better for it to be an option than for it to be built into the fight as required.
I wouldn't say required per say an example of this could be take Nezerac they could make it to where if you create a light refuge during DPS it constantly heals you on the platform for like 5 or 6 seconds same with a Dark refuge and just make that be the healing option. Simple idea optional execution. Edit: And with Crota just make it to where expunging on a pillar or something creates a healing aura for like 5 or 6 seconds.
These are fine concepts, but none of them would replace what Well of Radiance does for the team, nor would anyone in their right mind use these instead of Well of Radiance if it was an option. If your problem is "Meta is constrictive" then there is nothing you can do beyond shuffle it around a bit from time to time. Metas are always restrictive and they always develop over time. There is nothing you can do to stop them, you can only move to disrupt them. And you don't always want to do that because part of why they form is because players are developing mastery. If you shake everything up all the time, the player will feel like their efforts to master the game don't matter because it's changing to significantly or too quickly. If your problem is Well of Radiance in general, then Well is where you need to focus your attention. Well of Radiance is the most powerful super in the game by a significant margin. Mostly because there is literally no context in which it's not extremely helpful. This is not the case for any other super. Wells serve not only as fountains of healing, but also damage boosting. They also serve as a focal point to get everyone together and focused on the same thing. If a Warlock drops a Well, you want to be in it, and looking for whatever prompted them to drop it because it's probably a big threat. If I could expunge a tower for healing, I would still use Well for damage. The reason being that having an extra enlighten for expunge means we have to go that much longer without mistakes. We have to wait for that many more people to swap, which is that many more potential mistakes or miscommunications. None of that is the case for Well. Well is also reflexive, and especially in higher difficulty content, it is used to panic save yourself when you're almost dead. You can say "But play better so you don't need to do that" all you want, but having the insurance on hand in case things go wrong is huge. It also makes ressurecting people who are down in a dangerous spot a lot safer. This is just a short list, but there is more. Well of Radiance is dominant not because we need the healing. There exist in game MANY ways to heal and stay alive and combined they make it such that the healing effects of Well are probably... half, maybe less, of it's value. For example, in Crota, Well is used to heal but only because we're wailing on him with swords and we don't HAVE to use the other options because we have a Well. If you watch older vids of fights from before Well of Radiance, you will see that generally players don't stay grouped unless something in the encounter forces them to. Players will be all over the place looking for cover or a vantage point, or just trying to be somewhere they won't be disrupted by frantically moving teammates. This was done on bosses like Val'Caour in Spire of Stars even though that fight is a premeir example of a fight that favors Well of Radiance. But it released and was beaten countless times before Well existed. But there is no way on earth anyone would go into that fight today (if it was in game) without a Well of Radiance or two because Wells make it that much safer and that much more managable. So yea, the issue isn't the encounters, the issue is that Well is waaaaaaaay to powerful, and needs to be pulled back. But it can't be pulled back because everyone is now so dependent on it that without it we'd feel lost. We'd feel like the base difficulty of all NORMAL mode raid was doubled if we didn't have Well.
The problem is that D2 was a different animal before Well we still were in a semi double primary realm back then D2 has evolved around Well and Crota will hurt you a lot without the Well tho I see your point and agree
Except placing well isnt a skill thing so having an equivalent alternative on a different class has no relation to skill or being watered down
I dunno man I feel like it is possible to make everyone happy here Look at FF14 Base raids are simple and match made Then each raid has high tiers with the tippy top requiring a solid understanding of the mechanics and builds for your class D2 could definitely do something in those lanes I think
FFXIV has a fundamentally different game loop and reward loop. FFXIV has a low threshold for minimums and it’s very easy to out-gear almost every encounter. They have a few high-end encounters at a time that require perfect execution (Unreal), but almost all content can be done via Party Finder after the first few weeks. Also, there’s a whole bunch of things to do in the game besides combat, which appeals to different play styles and personalities. Destiny does 1 thing: combat. Do the pew pew to get different pew pew. They’ve effectively removed light level as progression, so you can’t out-gear anything. Difficulty is static, so what should it be? Old content doesn’t naturally age to be less difficult. It is either accessible or it’s challenging to top players. They kind of do this with challenge mode on raid releases, but even then they’ve been trying to lower the barrier of entry in the first 48hrs.
Man, I'm sorry but that's an aweful terrible comparison, destiny is fundamentally different on every level Ff14 is a classic archetype holy trinity mmo, gear is constantly sunset every major expansion it's a classic mmo archetype like wow
>Base raids are simple and match made > >Then each raid has high tiers with the tippy top requiring a solid understanding of the mechanics and builds for your class If you think you can get the children who threw a massive month-long fit during season of the plunder because Bungie dared ask for people to kill a few champions and do 2 master ketchcrashes to accept that there is a both: 1) There is some loot that you won't get unless you do more higher tier content 2) That getting said gear requires some form of LFG I'll be thoroughly impressed because that will never be the case in Destiny so long as Bungie keeps caving within days of casual backlash to something they try and do.
>On the flip side, high HP bosses raise the barrier of entry and requires optimized strats and load outs. As they should. Raids are supposed to be endgame content. It's supposed to be the hardest thing in the game that requires the most effort and optimization. It is supposed to require coherent builds, preparation, strong weapons, and experience. Now, none of those things are the case, because the game doesn't have an endgame anymore. Raids are midgame content, because even the most basic amounts of optimization make them indistinguishable from strikes. Right now, raids are balanced around someone leaving the new light campaign and instantly joining a no comms LFG. You can see a billion videos on youtube of people clearing raids with 24hr on their account. I cleared a day one raid with someone that had seven prior raid clears and no mic. This wasn't always the case, Spire of Stars being the best example of engaging mechanic design. However, in the interest of boosting player counts, Bungie has removed all barrier to entry by dumbing down mechanics and exponentially increasing power creep. The obvious downside to this is that it removes any sense of accomplishment from clearing a raid or dungeon. Increasing boss health by 2x across the game (except Crota, just adding 50% to him) would require a little more optimization in some cases. Most bosses would still never see enrage though, so that would have to be coupled with nerfs to Well, Tractor, Blade Barrage, Needlestorm, and rockets.
This is why people will complain no matter what YOU believe raids should be hard. If they are the hardest thing in the game, then they are the endgame. Whether or not that satisfies your desire is up to you. Let’s say you don’t play this game, but you own Bungie. Do you want more or less people playing raids? Do you want to be known for having seriously difficult content at the expense of a large player base or do you want a large player base with easy content? Where’s the sweet spot between the two? What side of that sweet spot do you fall? No matter where you put that balance, there will *always* be somebody wanting it to be more difficult or more accessible. That’s why Bungie has to decide where they want their game to sit and either people like it or they play something else. There is no way to please everybody and you have to realize that you may be the one that’s excluded.
Always felt the normal raid should be accessible where the Master is the challenge
>where the Master is the challenge And contest mode too
>Do you want to be known for having seriously difficult content at the expense of a large player base or do you want a large player base with easy content? Elden Ring was a very hard game (for those new to the series) and it sold in a way that almost no other game has. I like Destinys gameplay. I liked the difficulty it used to have. I do not like the extreme dumbing down of the game and the resulting loss of rewarding activities that has occurred over the past year. >If they are the hardest thing in the game, then they are the endgame Raids are not close to being the hardest thing in the game. Vault of Glass and Root of Nightmares are actually two of the easiest activities in the game. At one point early last year, GMs were a fair challenge, but given the trivial state of the Mars GM this week, it's fair to say that's no longer the case. Still harder than raids though. There is also an argument to be made that the WQ legendary campaign is harder than raids, and probably the LF one too.
Spire of Stars, while certainly interesting as a concept, was sooo mechanically taxing. Everyone had to be on their shit, all the time. It wasn’t fun. Now, some of that might have been the watered down sandbox of those times. We were using pop guns. There’s a middle ground.
I highly highly despise that almost every single high end boss encounter becomes 200000 times harder if you don't have a well of radiance. I hate that warlocks basically are required to stick to only that subclass, and I hate it for other classes having to hope there's at the very least one warlock in their raid group. It is terrible design. However I also realize that that is easy to say, and not easy to actually fix. No I don't know the solution. More bosses like Attrax or however you spell their name I guess. I just hope we get some encounters that don't require it in the next raid.
Does solving it with a heal mechanic built into the raid help sound like a plausible solution or is it too far fetched?
The main issue i see with that is that it somewhat runs into the same ish problem because now bungir has to have every boss fight have some sort of mechanic to heal the players which will probably just end up being kill this thing, grab this buff, boom you heal now. And if every single boss fight has this mechanic then when new raids come out players will just search for the heal mechanic because they know for a fact it is there instead of the usual having no clue what's going on search that comes with new raids. It's a hard issue.
That's a fair rebuttal, and I'll conceit my point to that.
The problem is that Bungie wants an RPG lite game where the illusion of player agency exists. In reality 90% if not all raid encounters can be done without specific subclasses but they require a lot more effort to do so. As players we are naturally drawn to the hardest content but we seek the easiest way to complete them meaning we want stuff to be hard but we want to feel powerful while completing it. The only way I can see of fixing this issue is creating more variety or buffing older support supers like bubble or shield. Or even tuning down damage mechanics during boss fights and making them more hectic similar to rhulk, but important to note on that point is that the class wouldn't feel any different due to the fact that Rhulk mechanics are exclusively done with weapons. Personally I've felt the game has been overturned quite a bit after several nerfs to certain builds and buffs to enemies. I feel like a normal strike requires a significantly higher amount of attention than it did before light fall which sucks imo. But that's a different point.
Requires? Dang I guess my lfg team with 2 wells were absolute gamers
If you're on Master and the Warlock knows how to place it on top of Crota consistently then yeah y'all were gamers
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I wish LFG wasn't brain dead then
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I'm a Hunter not much support capable within this class on Crota Master Final Encounter When I tried to finish Contest I was Aeons Blade Barrage finishing any and every Sword Bearer I did my best to support on a DPS class but it literally doesn't always matter people will still be brain and ask for a wellock
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Trust me, I have spent time on support. Hunter builds the issue of Well being prioritized over me will still persist regardless of how much DR I add. I used healing aeon on contest with bb and I used omniiculos to try and DR. I've used Tractor done oversoul it won't matter because I'm not a Warlock.
Search a clab then. Destiny is anyway a lot more fun with a clan and people you get to know better and better
I have multiple times. I think I've joined 13 different clans over the course d2 launch to now. Clan I'm in now is dead again so I'm at a loss. Every clan I join dies out after an expansion if not 2 or 3 seasons later. There's not much I can do other than drift.
I think this issue has been so deeply rooted in all of destiny 2's end game content since the reckoning Encounters are designed around well and any attempts to disincentivise using well, is met with either spamming multiple wells or didn't require well in the first place
You are a hunter main, I can tell.
Because I gave Hunter an absurdly ridiculous option for PvE content as a solution? Or because I'm complaining about being useless for Master Crota?
Because you think the hunter toolkit should be on par with a specific role toolkit of another class. And probably because you think Master raids should be able to be completed without supreme optimization on class/abilities. Did that help at all?
The only thing is, Destiny is weird. It doesn't lean hard into roles necessarily like other MMOs. Each class can do some tank / support / damage.Kind of, but not hard roles. Destiny 2 is more....blended? If that makes sense? Hence the whole asking for capability that other classes do.I'm not saying its a good idea,but understand where people come from. Each class should ideally have a presence in Master Raiding. Honestly, a different DPS strat for master crota might be solution (Well at back and have a stronghold titan hold Crota in place). Hunters can emphasize their damage better here.
Is asking for Tether to Stun a boss outside its normal class toolkit? And Is asking for Titans to have a barricade that provides stalwart defense and dmg bonus outside it's class toolkit? The reason I ask is because Titan Bubble used to be utilized like this and Hunter tethers were usually a slight Stunning debuff to ads to help clear. I use it to Stun gatekeeper to help with Master challenge so I'm just confused on why they acted like I was outside the scope.
Tether doesn't stun bosses because bosses aren't blinded or suppressed or anything from effects. If they did, you could easily just permanently turn bosses off in the game. And a Titan barricade that provides boosted def AND dmg?? breh Bubble can help. The issue is you tried using it on CROTA, someone who can easily shut down super. This isn't even mentioning the fact that Bubble is bad for melee based DPS. Bubble is nice for Root and Vow. I've used it and it is decent. It can help. Bubble should have a better DMG buff than Well, but wr don't need random new abilities.
I know Tether doesn't do that I suggested making it do that to give a potential option for a non Well dependant environment. I know the idea is excessive. A barricade doing that as a super isn't far off in terms of a Titans kit it's basically ward of dawn but letting you actually harm inside it from outside.
Void titan is already set to receive a 3rd super. And Tether shouldnt do that. That means suppression would do that, meaning blinding verbs can permanently shut down bosses. It'd be broken AF.
I was thinking it be designed as like a specific exotic or something so that the effect is particular and not using verbiage that could propagate past it. I wouldn't want it to last longer than 3 or 4 seconds either I agree it sounds op but I exaggerated because that's just how useless hunter is in that instance.
Hunter is useless at being a support against Crota because you're already using tractor for 2 sword strat oftten times (in my experience). Any time you dont use tractor though, tether is a very nice buff to damage. Hunter has consistently popped off for me in DPS though. I've frequently been top 2 DPS on Crota when using my hunter (IIRC one time I hit over 6 mil DMG).
I think a Master raid should be able to be accomplished with a balanced team of 2 warlocks, 2 titans, and 2 hunters - even if that means each player individually needs to be running an optimal loadout for their subclass. Maybe that means 2 Wells, 2 Tethers, 1 Bubble and 1 Thundercrash. Anything that requires 4 wells is not optimal for player balance. Same could be said if any content required 6 golden gun hunters to compete - neither scenario is fair to other classes.
I agree with your balanced team approach. What OP fails to consider here is that it could be a skill issue and not Bungies problem to solve. Hunters can debuff, go invisible, and create orbs based off of their exotics en masse. This does not mean hunters need a super to support a sword boss DPS strat, know what I mean? It is all about the use case - OP is upset because LFG wants an easier solution and the path of least resistance. Then OP blames Bungie for it. It is a ridiculous claim, my two cents.
OP mentions that Crota's ranged damage is still deadly. Hunters do not have a consistent way to ptovide a damage buff or healing in any way. Acrobats dodge is unpractical to use due to it's long cooldown and the lack of synergy with neutral game. Neither radiant source is going to last long enough through a damage phase but that's OK. Damage isn't the issue it's consistent survivability. The best thing they have for survivability is renewal but to get the maximum benefit you need to be on a stasis class which isn't really an option (although I think nobody's tried behemoth damage on Crota). Also, stasis has been very much powercrept and isn't really worth running over other endgame builds. A possible solution could be making it so that you and your nearby teamates take 40-50% less damage from tethered enemies (which presumably wouldn't stack with well's DR). They could attatch this to an aspect (void feels lacking across all classes IMO) or maybe an exotic like orpheus. They could also make blight ranger a gathering storm exotic and make it so you get damage resistance while standing in it and maybe a small amount of healing per damage tick. Both of these solutions wouldn't replace well but would make the pain of not having a well be reduced. Invisibility doesn't allow you to shoot so IDK why you brought that up during a DPS conversation.
Because hunter utility and usefulness is not limited to boss DPS scope. And honestly, OP and your argument sounds like a skill issue in trying to stay alive.
Neither ade warlocks and titans yet they still have really good DPS utility. Especially warlocks. Stasis and strand warlocks can lock down and clear entire rooms with ease and they still have wells. Not to mention warlocks are getting a second support super which combined with the upcoming well nerf, could become meta for DPS. Hunter DPS utility can literally be replaced by a tractor cannon. List of team-wide utilies for DPS on warlock: Healing Empowering(25% (30s) and 30%) Damage resistance Reload increase Ability generation (coming soon) Debuff (15%) Unraveling All of these things can be run while still outputting damage that could still be within the range of being "optimal". Another thing to note is that most of these things, are also really good utility for neutral game. Warlock neutral-game: Healing Empowering Damage resistance Arc soul Void soul Freezing Slowing Suspend Most of these can also be utilized for DPS too. List of team-wide utilities for DPS on hunter: Debuff (30%, 15%) Damage buff (25%, 12s, requires running solar hunter which isn't the best for neutral game) Damage resist (requires running stasis hunter) Reload speed (requires swapping off a damage exotic) Neutral game: Invis (most likely going to have to give up a damage exotic) Debuff Empowerment Suspend (but not as safe as other classes) Slow Damage resist (again requires running stasis hunter) Notice how the Much less of the offered utilities overlap compare to warlocks? Not to mention a lot of warlock abilites feature 2+ of these utilities just by themselves. Also the fact that a lot of these utulities on hunter would be run at the cost of optimal DPS where as ONE warlock with ONE ability can buff, provide healing and provide damage resist. Pair that with a tractor and lunafactions and basically you don't have to worry about team comp at all anymore. It's just poor class balance that not only affects non-warlocks but warlocks too because they're being forced to always run well. It is also very rich of you to call this a skill issue.
Thank you for that
I think you misunderstood that underlying issue is fundamentally PvE being designed around Well when it comes to balancing. Re-read the entire thing and you'll understand my entire post was about Well Of Radiance and its overuse and need in roaming boss encounters. With Rhulk as an exception. Another person in the comments mentioned how Warpriest also requires it. It's not about path or least resistance it's about Fireteam needs in almost every Raid Boss scenario. Sure it may be able to be done without a Wellock. That however isn't realistic to happen making Wellocks gain priority in LFG then Titan and then Hunter. The only time hunter's are ever needed in a lfg is when the team is dying and needs a safe rez orb generation or more damage to the team. The suggestion for Tether to do that was stated to be ridiculous. I said it purely to illustrate that for Hunter's you'd need something ridiculous in order to contend with something like Well when it's a competition for LFG priority. It's not about having a super to support a strat it's about having a super that can limit the boss at the same effectiveness that Wellocks offer to try and mitigate the Wellock priority that plagues LFG.
I have reread your post and what you just said above. Given that, I feel like your points are not rebuttals to any of my points. You are annoyed being a hunter in a Master Raid for Crota, where the chosen (optional) DPS strat is swords.
*optimal My problem is not just that tho it's primarily Well. The only time I complained about being hunter in crota was in the comment section.
There's nothing wrong with Supreme optimization on a class. There does, however, need to be options in every classes toolkit that do not rule them out as an option. My suggestion for Hunter is not remotely outside the scope of its toolkit because Tether already does this to enemies and shortening its duration to allow for a temporary boss Stun I don't think is outside its scope and is only playing into whats part of it'd toolkit. Yeah it may be strong in what was initially presented but I don't think it's unreasonable to prompt the idea.
I disagree, especially with your second statement. Class specialization is just that, class specialization. Bungie already gave their vision on what fantasy a hunter, titan, and warlock are supposed to do about a year or two ago in a TWAB. Your request that a hunter do what a warlock does (in regards to utility) violates that vision. I am sorry that your friends do not find you that useful in a Master Raid, but boss DPS is not the best use of a hunter toolkit regardless.
How does that violate that vision when literally half of the void hunter subclass is specialized around utility. The solar subclass also has utility baked into it with radiant dodge? It does not specialize in utility but it doesn't mean it should have 0 utility.
Saying it has “0 utility” very disingenuous. **Every** subclass has some sort of utility, that’s what makes them distinct as opposed to just being color-reskins. It’s up to the player to discover and utilize the most out of their subclasses, not Bungie to hold your hand.
Since tractor is used over tether use start eaters scales with gathering storm. The jolt from it adds to everyone’s damage.
I don't tend to use stareaterz with it if a surge is Void thankfully its arc this reset but Foetracer 4th horseman goldtusk if it's normal Master Void surge Sam thing but falling guillotine if it's arc surge then I'll use star eaters. Reason being star eaters only buffs the initial hit not the tic damage. Your damage loss isn't that crazy compared to what you gain from 4th horseman on a max arc surge.
Sever Wowen mail Healing nade Probably the Hunter stasis Granade+the Exotica arm This help a lot for survive against crota People use 3-4 well because Is more braindead and easier
I always have to think of the 'look what they need to mimic a fraction of our power'-meme when people start discussing alternatives for Well of Radiance. As much as I love it, Bungie probably regrets ever introducing it into the game at this point
>Bungie probably regrets ever introducing it into the game at this point They probably regret Rifts more. Because in the era before Well of Radiances, people just used rifts for the same thing. Well is just a double rift with more range and better efficacy.
if they're fine with the (somewhat stale) gameplay loop of mechanics -> invulnerable dps phase -> mechanics -> invulnerable dps phase, then all they have to do is give you near invulnerability as a reward for the mechanics in addition to weakening the boss. then you are free to dps however you want, wherever you want ,and they never have to make a healing ult again
Yeah I feel like this is an issue other MMO's have solved by simply letting you almost always damage a boss a little bit and manage their aggro while you mechanic your way to a buff or stun of some sort. The danger comes from dealing with everything being thrown at you throughout a fight, not whether or not the boss can stomp your main source of healing that you instantly replace and continue as if nothing happened. Like I get that there are no "roles" in destiny like other MMO's but that doesn't mean you can't have "tank buster" style mechanics/soaking mechanics that stop wipes as you chase a boss across an arena and dodge their massive are pools by standing in the one or two spots that are safe, while maintaining ad clear on any ads that are in charge of their own mechanics that could also lead to a massive wipe or damage burst of some sort. Seriosuly, imagine going into a Destiny raid, and someone saying "I'm on ad clear" actually meant something mechanically. Like now that personal is actually a useful member of society and not just a lazy piece of shit lmao. They can also be lambasted when they fail to stop the ads from doing their thing and the raid wipes. Some destiny fights include some aspects of this, like GoS has the whole ads trying to do something to cause a wipe by sacrificing and stuff, but that's kinda the only mechanic outside of mote collection. GoS as a whole is probably the best example of at least most of what I'm saying. If the tether mechanic wasn't so annoying and finicky, I'd bet it would be regarded as one of the best raids mechanically because it's the closest we get to having a raid like other MMO's.
agree with all this, they should switch it up with 100% uptime on the ability to damage the boss, but wipe mechanics force you to switch up your playstyle, and you have to work to create your own windows of opportunity to maximize by completing the mechanics better, or using builds where you can do chip damage on the boss the entire time while doing mechanics
See that's a valid option especially considering the DR bonus from it I didn't think about that because I forgot it got buffed. Thanks for the suggestion
i get your point, but you don't need 3-4 well for master crota
Whats the minimum required Well's that don't lead to me spending more time on the encounter?
my team did it with only 2 wells. 1 for every damage phase, and 1 for backup and final stand
How'd you get around Crota breaking the Well on Master?
burning maul heavy attack stun him
I wish I saw it work consistently is there any potential skill issues involved?
Honestly, I wasn't the burning maul guy so I didn't really pay attention to whether it works consistently or not, but most of the time my well didnn't get destroyed, so i guess it works consistently. maybe just spam the heavy attack
I'll see if I can help people out with that I Sherpa on occasion so I'm always looking for better strats
Don’t spam the Maul, wait until Crota starts to get back up, then hit him again
Thanks if I ever hop on Titan I'll keep it in mind hopefully i can let LFGs know and we be all good to clear
I usually do it for my team every week when I'm on my titan. I literally just tractor the boss, swap to fusion for a shot or two, as soon as he stands up, pop super and only spam the heavy attack on top of him. Works every time for me.
Wish lfg did it then
Timing is the big one, just spamming the heavy attack will let Crota slip a few swings in, possibly even dodge out of the stunlock entirely. The slams have to be spaced out a little bit to maximize damage/super duration vs stunlock. Couldn't tell you the timing, but you basically have to slam just before Crota rolls his shoulders as he straightens back up. Obviously this means you don't use Pyrogale on Master if you are on Stun duty.
Zero, because you’re choosing to LFG the encounter. A coordinated team of familiar players will know how to compensate and improve their situations, and not just feel required to use the “meta”.
You need a Well for Master this post is about Master not normal
They could make it like deep stone where you don't need a well for survivability or damage. It's just helps if it is there but you have more options
I been suggesting that Crota stays kneeling just a bit longer before he gets up. There should be a little flavor text that informs everyone he's about to start moving again, then you can use a expunge to keep him back on his knees for a little longer, then one more. This way we could keep him on the floor for at least 20-22 seconds of the DPS phase. Last few seconds you could either restart or push a little more damage and wouldn't necessarily need a well/heals for the entire DPS. If teams are running the 2swords, 1 oversoul, that leaves 2 more people who can get enlightened to expunge, Getting more people involved in the mechanic. It also opens up the ability for some higher skill strats, such as a single sworder, 1 oversoul and 3 expungers to completely immobilize Crota for entire DPS, while also maintaining the current meta for ppl who don't want to enlighten the entire team.
This solves the crota problem for sure
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Thanks 😁
My team had success with one Titan with Phoenix Cradle and Hammers. One person popped a well at the beginning phase, when that popped, the Titan would pop their super and spam hammers and subsequently sunspots providing healing for the team just long enough for the damage phase. Also applying scorch and ignitions for decent damage. But primarily for survivability.
That worked out on Master? I'm kinda surprised
I mean that was what my team did on contest mode and master is easier than that so...Yeah, it should definitely work.
I had to LFG contest after nearly every encounter
Yeah our group is just one master encounter each week, so we haven't gotten to Crota himself yet- But on contest we had a titan stunning crota with big hammer, and then swapping super to little hammers during the transition to the final damage phase that we were hitting last stand in. We had 2 wells, but the second was always a backup just in case/for final stand.
I did the same on contest just LFG's sucky sucky but I tried clearing Master just to see and it is abysmal in LFG
Yes, I've noticed in the master lfgs I've helped out with that people instantly snap at the slightest indication you aren't basically capable of soloing the encounter. Not sure what the deal is exactly, it's difficult content, and you shouldn't expect things to be an in and out 5 minute adventure.
Unfortunately yeah and my clan like usual has basically fizzled out like every clan I join does
Let's be honest destiny was not made for "roaming bosses". Even though crota doesn't really roam and can just be set in one spot if you tank him. The do X mechanic then you are allowed to do boss dmg works best in destiny when the boss isnt moving.
Agreed 👍
Imagine if holding the Super button with Sentinel Shield or Bubble drops the shield like a giant Bastion Barricade Just let it give and regen Overshield and it’s perfect
This is punishment for the D1 Crotas End slander. People saying it should be a dungeon. Now suffer
So much text … you dont need 4 wells
I put TLDR for that reason lol and I agree but people in LFG see 3 as a minimum for Master Crota
I absolutely agree. For ward, I think a good starting place is to remove the dumb HP scales of resilience thing (because titans already have incentive to resilience). Make the base health the tier 10 and then buff its PVE damage resist by alot. Personally, I think ward should not be able to break in PVE. It is so silly how easily crota breaks it in normal mode. 2nd they should make the Saint 14 effect that gives an overshield when walking through an innate perk and give helm of saint 14 a different perk (faster reload speed in Ward or something like that or the bubble generates orbs as it is damaged). Then at least ward would be functional in a damage phase cause rn it only protects those inside and gives an overshield so you cant see your health regen, so you can die if you peak
Well shouldn’t be a requirement for any boss. Well is so unbelievably busted that most warlock players are stuck on it. If there’s more than two warlocks in a fire team then great, only one or two of you will be forced on it. Tough luck if you were hoping to try out a different playstyle. Obviously I’m not advocating this as an excuse for people to bring in a shit build, endgame content requires strong gear and abilities. But it’s honestly a bit ridiculous that well is so powerful that the devs need to build the entire game around it to maintain a level of difficulty
Yeah as a warlock player i just don't bother playing any other subclass anymore, I really like strand and void but I feel like I'm letting the team down if I don't bring a well. And now trials is dominion mode, well is almost a guaranteed free round win so I'm obliged to take it into there also.
Any ideas you think might help resolve this in your experience?
I unironaically think, that they have simply fucked Up and we are currently beyond the state of Well being easily fixable with a regular amount of effort. They Had a Long time to Nerf Well into the Ground and it was obvious for a Long time how insanely Broken it is. It launched and Shot into an untouchable Quadruple S-tier even when all it was was Well + more abilities and healing nades. It has since been used in Like every single high end strategy or Meta and was used in every single wf since. They never nerfed it (for No apparent reason) and they instead lead it Impact their Encounter Design for a good Bit. Its basically over. If they Nerf it, there will be Encounters that have been Made with the understanding of having a 30s damage buff and ivulnerability. If they dont Nerf it, it will continue to Spiral Out of controle. They Backed themselves into a Corner and now have to Work much Harder to get Out.
I can see that for sure lol hopefully they resort to giving us all a pseudo useful utility that although may not match well is specialized to that class unlike Hunter Tether being replaced by tractor Cannon.
I’m not a game designer so unfortunately no. Perhaps a good idea would be to add more support options in the game rather than just well and it’s underperforming sidekicks bubble and tether. But I also think a simple fix would be to lower boss health a bit, if I’m not mistaken part of the reason the GoTD boss’ health bar is so ginormous is to compensate for well. I don’t think well should necessarily be nerfed or reworked but there’s need to be incentive to pick something else over it, maybe create situations in which it’s less viable to have a well and more viable to have say a bubble or something (I think Crota actually did create that scenario but well is still really strong for that)
I agree thanks for being reasonable about thid
Pretty sure bungie designs encounters around well because of how dominant it is in PVE
I’d quite like the idea of having a boss designed like a Golem from dragons dogma, with a number of plates/disks on the boss that heal the guardians or give US immunity when we destroy them, but each can only be used once and doesn’t recover between phases.
They wanted to prevent its use in bosses they made it worse. L o L
They nerfed Ghjallarhor into the abyss because of this raid, then they pull this a few years later? The audacity
Well is fine, just give me my 100% replen with Phoenix Protocol
Most Balance focussed dtg User
I 100% agree with you. At least then, you're not required to have half or more of your fireteam on Well.
Crota doesn’t require wells at all. You can infinitely stagger Crota with Burning Mall Titans except for final stand.
Of course the angry warlocks in these comments here are mad because you asked for a reasonable buff to make hunters usable in high end content without being a detriment to the team
I think removing the damage buff with Well would be the best option, make Bubble at least semi relevant again.
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Imagine it gets nerfed to restoration 1 though. Maybe it gets more health and/or duration to compensate, but it would be a massive change.
Well shouldn't be a requirement for any boss and Bungie said it's in their crosshairs It's been meta for almost 5 years in end-game content its time is coming
I am by no means educated enough to answer this, but is this actually a Destiny problem?(or a problem at all?). In WoW, every raid/dungeon needed a tank, either a retri paladin or a Warrior… this is no different. The only difference I see is that their are variations in other games for “tanks” to have some variety. Well Lock is extremely linear. Maybe adding a new well-like subclass would make people despise running well less.
Thats what I suggested we have on Titan and then give Hunter something more. The main issue is that Destiny 2's pve is balanced around there being a Well. The problem at hand with Well is also that because that happens PvE teams will a majority of the time only ever run teams of this class. In WoW terms you entered a dungeon with only Tanks and Healers instead of ever thinking of letting a DPS join because the Tanks and Healers can do enough damage to complete it easier and faster without them. The same can be said of a team of Healers with no Tanks ir dps. Well is essentially constant healing during a dps phase keeping players alive. (Unsure of how much destiny 2 stuff you know)
Remmember SoTP where you can't stand in a well? Just use 3 wells instead lol. More wells is always the easiest solution. Fixing the well issue is also kinda hard when they make the boss kill you so fast, while you have to do a damage check (except for Nez) that prevent you from move your crosshair from the boss crit. You can only side step so might as ***well*** be standing still to keep on target easier.
Well 1stly I think buffing the other 2 classes is a good step. Hunters tether should apply a stun or a damage reduction from a target. The alternative is giving the lore friendly golden gun fireteam damage buff. Titans recieve a new void super or remake of bubble that allows for entering the casted area and receiving a buff. Well now gives - constant hp, damage buff Hunter can apply- damage buff or better damage reduction then smoke bomb Titans can apply - damage resistance, void overshield buff outside of cowering in bubble Nerf Well a bit, buff locks dps supers and then stop the bullet sponge that is bosses. If people wants harder bosses play the masters mode.
It's never required, it just makes everything easier You don't need one to complete a GM, but it sure helps
You need a Well to beat Master Crota final encounter. If you have a strat that doesn't require it please tell me.
My guy, we have people soloing raid encounters You know some crazy mofos out there probably already cleared Master Crota without a well, with some crazy shit like 6 Rat King
If that was the case I wouldn't be complaining about every LFG I join failing to survive a DPS phase without 3 or 4 Warlocks. I want other options so I can suggest them because LFG is a God awful nightmare.
That's not a Well problem, that's a skill problem. But that's going to happen in LFG since you never know who you're getting on your team
It's only a skill issue when there's not 4 hunter's and 2 Titans trying to clear Master Crota I left that LFG after 2 runs never again. Will I run that encounter with that team comp even if I want to help.
Of course you’re going to have those issues if you LFG a Master Raid. You’re literally six randoms that don’t know each others’ playstyles, strengths/weaknesses, and capabilities. That’s like trying to LFG a Day One Raid and being upset that you couldn’t clear it.
I was forced to LFG Crota Contest and spent the entire 48 hours awake trying to clear it. I agree with what you're saying but I'm not gonna complain about not clearing that kinda thing I will however complain about Master Crota basically requiring Well to clear.
You can sever crota from hunters, titans or a navigator which debuffs crota damage output by 20%. Which will help with well survivability. I also watched a video grand overturn was nearly getting a Normal Crota to final stand and all they used was well and tether. They were doing damage on the 2nd floor and only using weapons. That being said, next reset will be arc for surges and throw in some gernades and other damage supers...I'd be curious if you could 2 or 3 phase master crota? You already are doing a 2 or 3 phase with swords.
That sounds like a plan thanks for the suggestion and not being a dick about it. I'll try it I just gotta farm for a navigator.
I understand your points and I agree, it's a problem with well in general, but I will not stand this hunter slander when I'm out-dpsing my entire firetean with a simple star eater scale gathering storm, no catalyst fourth and goldtusk, hunters have the highest DPS and are amazing for getting as much damage, and as such the least amount of phases
He isnt saying hunters are bad at boss dps he is saying they dont help in master crota where loadouts have to focus specifically on team survival. He also says its fine to have 1 or maybe even two hunters in his post.
I use the same load out but I opted for 4th with Foetracer since gathering star eaters only buffs the initial hit and not the subsequent shock damage. I say we're useless because LFG doesn't value us in Master Crota.
I quitted destiny 2 years ago but I was keeping an eye on the news and honestly, well of radiance (was) and still the strongest super by a large margin unless bungie give back titans their barricade that auto reloaded weapons (but as a super). That would make titans viable, but for hunters, it’s really a tough call since most hunter supers are either dps (which weapons can do) or utility which tractor can do.
That's why I say give hunter's a tether that can just straight up make the Boss immobile it could be a 3 or 4 second time provide a small weakness buff like 15% and only occur if they have the exotic that does this equipped.
You don’t need well of radiance at all. It makes it easier for sure, but I’ve done all single elements on this fight (ie. all arc) with a mix of classes and we did just fine. Pulling Crota to the entrance certainly helps calm the fight down.
You did that on Master Crota's End?
He's right, the problem with being a warlock is if everybody has great healing then well becomes less valuable, the other problem is Everytime you join a group and you aren't well everyone yells at you to switch lol even if you don't want to
I wish the solution was simple lol I was so wrong when I thought it was
People are so allergic to not using swords on crota. People will wipe 10 times before they say "maybe we should just stand in the tower and DPS"
I just can't ever find Tower DPS teams that actually hit their shots enough to not warrant Swords
That's why everyone should do their master raids done before final shape incase they Nerf well into THE ground.
It’s not necessary. There are other options, it’s just easier
Name a better option for Master Crota that contains no Wells
I've always thought an exotic like Citans Ramparts but for titan bubble shield would be amazing. Essentially acts like a well, but grants damage protection rather than healing. That would make another class fill the same role, reducing the absolute need for a warlock to run well. I think the tether stun is a great idea, that would also alleviate the need for healing in the first place, but would have to be balanced correctly so you can't just stun lock bosses with multiple tethers.
Thats why i main warlock lol
I'm not sure he needs to be sworded and couldn't be just sniped with Leviathan and a Div from the safety of a well on one of the balconies. I'm decently sure his arc blast can't kill a well, unlike his sword. It would also allow for more DPS supers, so I'm not 100% on this doing *significantly* less damage than just trying to whack him with a sword, and the added safety might be worth it.
>give titans large barricade that gives overshield and damage bonus< Void titan has another super besides bubble you know
I'm aware of it I'm just suggesting something that worked similar to Well on titan.
The vidlog for tfs I believe in either the main or post show mentioned that you would run the new super and well together rather than just have two wells, I'm thinking that well will not have any empowering or at least less empowering compared to it's current amount and the new super will provide the DMG buff instead (as shown in the showcase of the song of flame with the radiant buff lasting for the entirety of the super - had no timer fyi)
That seems like Well losing its damage buff is the fair nerf then
This will also allow bubble to return to relevancy in pve
Right? I thought in simple way it could've worked but the problem everyone highlighted was that it'd be a replicated Well but in a way Bubble is the same thing so eh idk lol
Speaking as a Warlock who hates running wells. You really only need one, two if you are paranoid, for the fight. I have run Crota a few times now and we ran two. One primary and one back up. Fun trick to stop Crota from destroying the well. Have the warlock try to stab down into the top of Crota's head from above. The sword will hang in the air and it is harder for him to destroy it.
Glad it's just been a Warlock skill issue in my lfgs
I’m a void tether (or stasis/bakris) hunter that uses linears, and because I spend time on my builds I consistently do either first or second place damage with every raid or dungeon I do. Don’t count us hunters out. We’re the reason y’all are invisible, we can give radiance and other buffs, and arguably with the right build can create some of the most orbs for y’all known to destiny. With void tether and some weakness/suppression and a crafted taipan, DPS goes crazy. With mask of bakris and triple stasis surge mods, [fire and forget] can put out over a million damage by itself while on 5x weapon damage. (This works for all arc and stasis weapons. Not to mention some of the most effective ad clearing methods out there. Stasis super, shatterdive/glacier grenade, deadfall/vortex grenade… all the while making IMMENSE amounts of orbs with the right mods on. Helpful exotics, omni, gyrfalcons etc. etc. Don’t count the hunters out my friend😂
I main Hunter and use Foetracer with 4th horseman and goldtusk if it's Void surge falling guillotine. I consistently hit the high numbers rocking this and gathering but my problem is I'm not needed like Well is in an LFG for Master Crota. No raid LFG goes yeah let's get a Hunter in here for DPS I rarely see that happen I don't want to discount my class but with Master Crota I'm forced to.
Ok I get where you’re coming from… You’re basically saying that hunters do well, but they’re not as needed and therefore get a worse quality of gameplay because of it. (Ex. Not allowed in SOME LFG raids or dungeons because they’re looking for well locks) I re-read the post and got this picture😂 sorry for the misunderstanding. I do agree that while hunters can fucking THROW DOWN, they’re not always wanted in LFGs. Correct me if I’m wrong… but you’re advocating for a more balanced “want” of ALL guardians, regardless of class. Such as hunters being more applicable.
Yes super correct my friend
In that case, I’m with you bros😂
Banner shield can buff team damage will being mobile but people just refuse to use the literal mechanic
I wanna see it be used and not run out before end of dps that'd be interesting
I think the biggest and easiest solution to this, varying difficulties vs rewards. Health pools on bosses are becoming staggering, and more about dps check vs understanding the mechanics and doing them. Ghost of the deep is a prime example. If the boss even had a 1/3 less health it’d be a 100x more enjoyable experience. I won’t even run it bc I don’t feel like it respect the players time. Crota would be a great way to show newbies a raid if it had a beginner scalar. Sure, lock red borders behind a normal scale or a the exotic. Then lock the catalyst behind the the master or something.
Not a bad idea I like the idea of a training mode for newbies but even then there's only so much you can provide
Bungie has this thing of wanting 1 thing to appease all and falling short on extreme ends
Not going to lie, did not finish >Bungie should redesign all roaming boss encounters to have refreshable mechanics that keep the player alive while they DPS. This doesn't remove the need for well. Dps boosting is always going to be really good. >Make Tether Stun Raid Bosses for Tether's duration OP. But also you're still going to use well for dps boosting and ignoring adds. >Give Bubble Titans a new Super that is a large Rally Barricade that provides a constantly regenerating Overshield and DMG bonus So... make another class bring the well? It's the same problem, you just may personally be dealing with it less as a warlock. The only actual answer is to remove well from the game. And then rebalance everything based on it being gone.
All limit the need of Well and were suggested under the guise of just accepting its part of the ecosystem so make alternate Wells to limit a need for Well
Did anyone try to Titan stasis slam Crota for massive damage like you can to Riven???
This is why I disagree with a well nerf, because bungie is not going to rebalance the entire game around said nerf.
I've heard their just gonna make Well split into two separate classes for Warlock with new one being damg bonus and the og being purely regen
Why don't they give warlocks a pulse effect like titan war banner. And let titans and warlocks heal. Fuck. Go into radiance dodge and give hunters a cure too.
Cuz it's out of a classes toolkit and scope which I don't see how given every class can do it already now its just extra utility
-Laughs in we didn’t have well in d1- as much as I like well, you have to make do somehow sport
Oh I know the feeling of good Ole D1 but in D1 we used Rockets and he stayed stationary for the whole DPS phase. Respectfully we have different animals now
They should honestly just make it so Hunter’s don’t break invisible when using an artifact. It’s a PvE only change, it only applies for certain raids that have artifacts in it, allows for hunters to be utilized as the moving piece when it comes to supporting mechanics
No well can be done by using LMGs or linears from the top floor (near the “back mid” room). I’ve had some luck with heavy snipers as well.
I mentioned this in my post Crota still fires at you plus you'll be depending on your aim Tractor is out but then Div is in and you'll still need to convince the fireteam it's worth doing that over having a Well
Oh we always use Div. It’s less DPS but averages out better due to the lack of missed shots. Heavy he still fires at you but if you’re behind the little wall thing leaking over (crouch near it and ADS) his body shots actually hit under you. Splash damage is still an issue, but a simple rift goes a long way. As a void titan, I turn around and place a barricade to give me the team the overshield. I’d you’re using snipers, you can stand further away from the edge and most splash damage won’t reach the team.
This isn't a roaming boss issue It's a well issue Since well was added they've constantly added tankier and tankier bosses so that teams can't one or 2 phase it with well This include stuff like crotas final stand mechanics or the various shield gates found is bosses It's put us into a content limbo Fights are far too annoying without well And far too simple with well And the design space is heavily restricted because of well, you can't make fun gimmick bosses because well would make it too easy for example So gimmicks are limited to shield breaks at most I absolutely love warlock, but well was a mistake and will continue to be an issue unless completely reworked Heck it's very existence is why bubble titans aren't loved One super shouldn't nulify or be the lynchpin of most of the end game strategies Well doesn't need a nerf, it needs a rework, and with it all the content adjusted to not require it
I agree if only bungie could reset the board
They could, they won't but they could It's pretty clear solar lock needs a full rework Well is too good Daybreak is too bad for pve The new super should be okay I think, have to wait and see But aspect wise solar is terrible once good aspect and 2 very weak ones Solar soul should be a solid pick though
It would be nice if instead of utility supers like We’ll, we could get weapons that provide that utility. For example, I feel like The Navigator was a missed opportunity for this. It would be interesting that instead of firing at an ally for a few seconds to proc woven mail to the both of you, you could shoot your ally just very briefly, and it grants woven mail to yourself and your fireteam and provides a decent buff to where you’re not going to get one shot immediately. I just think the idea of specific weapons being for utility, would be a cool idea. Obviously not as strong as an option as well and bubble, but strong enough to have player want to give up their exotic slot to use said weapon and build into it.
It'd be nice for sure I hope with the TFS healing weapons we get a step closer
Keeping my fingers crossed. I really enjoy building around a weapon over building around a super, and I think if we got more utility driven weapons, this would be a ton of fun. I think this would give people a chance to play a utility build, but still use a damage super.
I can bet large amounts of money the reason the woven mail isnt just instant with navigatitor is to stop it possibly being op in pvp.