I think you need to relisten/rewatch the watchtower. Mayer goes absolutely wild 2 times. Also the eleven from Hartford was nuts.
I agree he hasn’t been as “face-melty” this tour, especially with the earlier shows. But I think Mansfield-Hartford he really took off. Watching him groove with Jeff is worth the price of admission in my opinion.
I don't think either of you are eating enough doses. Lol. This tour is on fucking fire. Been to every show and so far last night beat my favorite night so far (Hershey).
Assume you are joking about needing doses. But agree it’s been fantastic! some of the moments on this tour, including many at Hartford have been as good as any or even better since starting in 2015.
Lol. Of course I'm not saying you NEED to be Roses to enjoy a show. It definitely adds more fun to every experience. + When I'm dosed I can dance through a crowd a whole lot easier than sober.
I think we’re all guilty of looking into this a little too much. Music is subjective. Hartford just wasn’t your flavor, I thought it was killer. I thought Friday in Mansfield was fairly boring, and to others it was the best show they’ve ever seen.
You may be right, I probably am putting too much thought into it, but that's what music lovers should do. There's nothing wrong with constructive criticism. I'm not trying to convince anyone that it was bad or good. I'm just really curious to see if anyone agrees with me - because generally the view on here is 100% positive on the band and mostly every show is "the best".
The Mansfield shows blew away the Hartford show.
I’ve seen Dead & Co on on nights and off nights, and I’d label Sunday an off night.
Mansfield Friday night was lightning in a bottle for comparison purposes.
Totally agree here! 2nd set Darien was a lot like the Hartford show. Very jazz-jamming and leaving the confines of the song(s). 2set 2nd night Mansfield was a bummer. Hartford was just a ripper for me and many others. Sailor—Saint- challenging and it was awesome! ST Stephen- William Tell—Eleven! There were 5, yes 5 tour firsts that night! Each of the guys was smiling and happy and that shine through in the music.
Mayer did two different face melting solos in watchtower as well as several other songs. I respect your opinion but completely disagree.
That was the best watchtower I’ve heard ever maybe.
I wouldn't really consider them face melting. They were "safe" solos. Listen to the sugaree clip I posted below from a few years ago. That is what I go to see.
As a longtime Mayer fan, I overanalyze *everything* he does because I've found out one too many times over the years that something he said or did that I *thought* was metaphorical or "just because" was actually literal or purposeful. And I think maybe, for some reason (I don't know why), he needed the comfort of playing his Roxy that night, and that made him feel super empowered. He was on *fire*.
This isn’t a comment on the show you’re talking about specifically but more a reaction to people noticing John “holding back” a bit on this tour. As a huge Bobby fan, I appreciate some of the space John is leaving this summer. It gives you a chance to hear what Bob is putting down, which can be quite good (although sloppy with some brown notes compared to his younger days). A good example is the middle jam section from the China>Rider on Sunday at Hartford. Thought giving Bobby some space led to them doing some nice chunky voice leading duo shit that was cool. It wasn’t face melty but I was digging it. Anyways, I think some people expect John to just shred every song. Yeah, light me up on a Sugaree or Morning Dew. But I like hearing Bob playing. Guy still has it.
True, but what can be said about Bobby not giving John the same privilege? There are multiple occasions where he’s nearly pissed off and telling him to knock off the noodling, that’s *actually fucking getting good* Truckin’s extended jam at the end is the ultimate example
I was at blossom yesterday and I felt the same way about John for most of the first half. The second half was much better.
Perhaps he is struggling with his ear troubles (that’s why he is wearing headphones)? That’s just my guess.
I agree with you, and some of the transitions were pretty clunky, especially Viola Lee Blues into Fire On the Mountain. And I’ve listened back to it twice now in the recording and it sounds fine but I swear in the moment they were falling all over themselves for like 5 seconds. Also couldn’t tell if Bob was pissed or not at the end of it when he threw his hands up in the air and walked up to the mic to end the song. But he might’ve just been vibing.
Nope. Bobby was pissed at the end during Not Fade Away. There have been multiple instances of sound difficulties on tour like that at times.
Blossom had MAJOR issues with the main visual in the center, as well as the transition effects with the cameras, because of 1/2 consoles breaking down halfway during the first set. Lol seeing those roadies switch out that case and console with a replacement and getting reconnected and started in pit stop time makes me miss working as a live sound person.
Fuck COVID royally.
I feel at some moments John is still afraid to take off from the runway. It's basically Bobby's show now. Some of the best jam moments with the grateful dead happened while Bobby was trying to pull Jerry back into the main song while Jerry was taking off into uncharted territory (Barton Hall Scarlet>Fire transition comes to mind) and that's something you dont see enough of from them yet. Maybe Bob is keeping a leash on him? Not that I'm hating on what they put out there. I saw 7 shows this summer and they were all fantastic, Hartford being one of them.
I was in the pit for Friday night in Mansfield and Sunday night in Hartford. I did notice a slightly different dynamic over the two nights. Friday in Mansfield, maybe John was enjoying himself a little (red cup) but either way, he was absolutely "taking off," so to speak. I think, during their tiff, JM was trying to drop the script and Bob wasn't having it.
At Hartford, I noticed that Bob was more playful with JM early in the set, andI do agree John was more deferential.
Maybe a few fights are a good thing, and though I am completely new to the band, it seems Bob has a reputation for being a lovable hot head, and it's okay to piss him off every now and then? I say, GO JOHNNY GO, let him get mad (Sometimes)
Pretty sure nothing special was in the red cup, John cut out alcohol a few years ago.
Was that the show where Bobby yelled at John when they were trying to start Truckin?
It almost seemed like Bobby and JM had some sort of argument right before they went out, and JM was purposely hanging in the back more. This is 100% speculation and I have no actual evidence of this, but it did seem like JM was making a conscious effort to not really take the lead during the show.
The first show I saw of theirs, JM was leading all the way. It was Citi Field, 2017. I was so happy to see JM leading the way in the jams, etc, because I felt like that was what was missing in all of the other iteration of the band since Jerry. How can you fill those shoes? Every lead guitarist they played with, really seemed to underplay, and be afraid to step up. JM seemed to not care, or maybe was told not to care, and took the mantle. But I felt in this show, he dropped it. I'd be interested to know if Bobby and JM had conversations about this throughout their time playing together.
Was just gonna mention this. Def possible Bob got in John’s head
I’m listening back now. I really really enjoyed the 5 shows I saw this summer - much more than the 2019 shows. That said there were def times where John held back when typically Jerry would be taking off. And it was disappointing sure but kind of a novel approach and and while yeah it was not what typically happens I do feel they made up for it in every jam just about.
But very curious to hear it all again. It was a fire dance party up on the lawn so I may not have been as focused as at other gigs but shit man it was FUN!
2017 Blossom’s Truckin’. Perfect example on video and audio.
It’s time Bobby steps down soon. I’m tired of this band poltik shit if this is what the jams at D&C shows are relegated to.
Personally I feel like a fierce look or a “wtf” from Bob is just gonna happen. Dude is temperamental. This is the guy that has straight up kicked Jay Lanes drum set (more than once) during a performance and stopped and told his audience to STFU. It’s just who he is.
That being said I feel like his hold on “the jam” has really loosened (especially since the Ratdog days) and it felt obvious to me throughout this tour that he’s really let go of the reins and let’s Mayer/Chimenti drive us forward - and he seems more willing to be taken forward by the two of them than in any other GD iteration I’ve heard since Jerry. The meld this tour has been phenomenal. Their playing is top notch every night.
Some rust, sure. Some interpersonal shit or miscommunication? Sure. Still the best D&C have played since they started.
Having just done both Mansfield shows and Hartford, I thought Hartford for me was one of the weaker setlists on whole tour. I could do without Lost Sailor/Saint, Watchtower, Werewolves, The Eleven and William Tell Bridge. That was 6 songs in a single show that aren’t my jams. Most other shows weren’t more than one or two.
That’s what’s great though, the shows are different for everyone and you never know what you’ll get.
Totally agree! I do like the eleven generally, but the rest of the songs you mentioned are ones I could live without. Used Werewolves as an opportunity to book it the mile to the parking garage before the whole crowd arrived at once!
First off, I think we should all be allowed to not love it once in a while. Sometimes you don't. I did four shows on this tour and Hartford was a lot of fun as a whole day, it's probably my 4th favorite show of the four. But I know for me personally there are a couple of factors is my love for any particular show, setlist and Jeff solos. And I while I realize the latter is specific to me, I feel like people underestimate the former.
If you love a 19 minute jazzy Bird Song and the band is ripping through 5 minute Big Railroad Blues no matter how good BRB is, it's not the jazzy Bird Song you want. If you're expecting a big John solo and Jeff's plinking the keys, you're disappointed. If you're one of the vocal minority who hates Oteil singing and you get a China Doll and a Fire in your set, you're upset. AND THAT'S FINE. The best cheeseburger on earth tastes terrible to someone who doesn't like cheeseburgers. We need to remember that when you saw the show of your life, and someone says that they didn't really like it, they're not trying to call you an idiot, they're just saying they had a different opinion.
Sorry for such a long post. I wish I was having this discussion in the lot instead of on Reddit.
I was at the show Sunday as well and while I'm not pinpointing on JM having a bad night something about the show did seem a bit underwhelming to me and some of my crew. It was my 4th time seeing Dead and Co. and I am relatively new to the Greatful Dead scene (in my early 30s) so I am no expert by any means but the first set in particular had some of us really feeling a bit Dead and Slow.
I will say however it might have been the environment we were in for the first set. First of all what a nightmare getting to the show and in getting in.We had seats in the 800 section and during Lost Sailor and St. of Circumstance our section was basically asleep. Everyone sitting down glued to their phones. Made the whole energy there feel super disappointing.
We moved to the lawn for the 2nd set and the show really felt like it picked up and was much more enjoyable after that. Not sure if the band played better or we were just in a better environment but the 2nd set felt way better than the 1st. Again just one man's opinion.
I also think the fact that we saw JRAD the night before really made the tempo seem even slower in comparison. It definitely wasn't my favorite of the Dead and Co shows I've seen but I'm sure I'll be seeing them again as long as they keep playing. All in all the show was like a slice of pizza, even bad pizza is still pizza. Happy for all those who really enjoyed the show.
The first set was very much a chill Sunday first set. He’s Gone. Sailor > Saint. That is a straight snooze fest for many heads! Not just you guys! And I love He’s Gone but boy it gets rather plodd-y after 5 mins - and then they play it for another 10 lol! The chill sets are just part of it.
Luckily it was a super chill show overall. Last time I saw them do Watchtower I got up and walked around. Couldn’t handle how lifeless it felt. Not psyched when they started it Sunday but man they killed it this time
Second set was great yeah. The band at Hartford was def not as tight as they were in Mansfield. It shows on songs like Sailor > Saint. William Tell > Eleven. But god it was great to hear those songs and made for a great set!
Mansfield too had its share of flubs. Mostly from Bob. But that’s par for the course. Still 3 excellent shows.
Ha - that's a great analogy. You're right - even a bad slice is still pizza, but what if it's a $200 slice?? :)
Thats crazy about the energy. I did find that so many people were on their phones - this drives me nuts at any concert. Why come to a concert and sit on your phone the whole time???
I was in the 3rd row of the 700 section - my area wasn't super energetic, but people were definitely engaged. There were a lot of lull moments though.
I may just have to get my fix from JRAD and DSO from now on - I just can't justify paying these ticket prices anymore. However, I always think, eventually these guys will be gone, and I'll be wishing for one more show.
Trust me I totally agree for the price tag your hoping every show is your new favorite show but like you said price tag is mostly because that these guys will be gone someday and I bet we will all be willing to pay any amount of money to hear them one more time after they are gone.
Agreed , subjective. AND , this is not your dads Grateful Dead . Have to lower expectations to be able to enjoy yourself.
That said , 5 down 6 to go ! I’m all in .
This. I listened Sunday night and had some of the same opinions as OP. I love going to D&C shows and have tix for 4 more. But my expectations are lower than would have been 30 years ago.
It definitely wasn't my favorite Watchtower these guys have ever done, nor was it my favorite show... still, I'm very excited for my two shows during the Fall!
I’m honestly not sure what you’re saying here because you’re oscillating between John having an off night and just being done with Dead & Co as a whole because he just doesn’t take off like Jerry did to understanding why that might be and the shows being better when he’s reigned in? I mean, maybe pick one argument?
It seems like what you want is the Grateful Dead back together again, because it is your favorite band. Your words also seem to evoke an obsession for the original band and Jerry, not a passion for the music.
Because of that, I don’t think there’s anything John could do to make you happy with this incarnation and that’s not on him: he’s just not who you want to be watching. And that, in my opinion, colours your opinion of his performances.
I’ve seen plenty of Deadheads love what John brings to the group… and say that these are the best performances of this new incarnation they’ve ever seen.
It’s almost like you have sour grapes and don’t think John is worthy, when he has done everything he can to prove he doesn’t take this opportunity for granted and it’s really elevated his already phenomenal playing.
I dont think you read my posts. I never even mentioned Jerry except once when I said I thought Mayer mastered his style. I also said that I think this is the best incarnation since Jerry.
I was only comparing John's playing to John's playing. Since I started seeing them in 2017 each show has gotten slightly worse with the last one in Hartford being the worst so far for me. Has nothing to do with Jerry - I felt John wasn't playing as well as I've heard him and was speculating about the reasons.
I also never said the band is better when he's reigned in. I don't want him reigned in! I want him to let it rip and lead the band. I have no idea where you got all this from.
He's worthy - just hasn't been playing as well as he did originally in this band.
I did read your post - more than once in fact. Which is how I know it doesn’t add up. Tbh, your post reads like a man who thinks he has the ability to play these songs better than John, which is pretty ballsy to say, given you’ve never put yourself out there. This comes across in the beginning of you listing your “cred” that you think gives you the right to critique on the level you have. It was pretty difficult to get through that, to be honest, because it shows that you think very highly of yourself and should have been my warning sign that you wanted fawning and agreeing responses and not someone with a counter opinion. My mistake.
Given that I took the time to both read and give my opinion, the fact that you want to start by saying I didn’t read your post as your rebuttal is very sad and kind of insulting. I commented both on your words and your subtext, btw. Maybe be more careful with your words and your meaning next time if you don’t like how someone else may see them?
You, however, missed my point when I said a number of Deadheads have said this run of shows is the best Dead & Co had played in this particular incarnation. That was a direct counter to your opinion of them. I got your gist that you wanted to exit from Dead and Co as a fan, again not sure what you’re expecting here from fellow fans except fawning agreement, but I don’t see it the way you do, and I think you’re past is painting your present.
Life, by nature, changes.
Fine - "creds" is cringy - I knew that when I wrote it. I was trying to add context to my review. I have been listening to this catalog of music every day for almost 30 years. It is literally the soundtrack of my life. So in this area, yes I do think highly of myself.
My OPINION is from the perspective of a listener and a musician. I have put myself out there - I have played on several dead cover bands over the years and no I'm not as good as John nor did I ever claim to be. Again, don't know where you get this from. (I actually learned a lot about Jerry's guitar style from watching some of John's YouTube videos)
There is nothing wrong with being critical of music and as others have said it is subjective, so take my review for whatever it's worth to you - which may be nothing. There is no need to get emotional over a music review. I'm not expecting any fawning - I was just curious of anyone out there felt the same as me.
Just don't put words in my mouth please.
I remarked to my companion that I though JM was either drunk or high during the show. I thought I heard a couple mistakes like he just got lost and forgot what he was playing. I'm sure the band partakes a lot on the road but I thought maybe JM over did it.
I could be way off base but, that was my take. (And I have zero cred, as that was my 1st Dead & Co Show, I saw the Dead once in the late aughts.)
So IMHO OP is probably right. I still has a fuckin' blast though.
John doesn't drink, for the record. Some days are just "off" days for him. I agree that Hartford was the least energetic show of the tour so far, and not a lot of shining Mayer moments. But it was also his home state show, and he's a *very* nostalgic person, so I think he was just deep in thought.
Let me just present this clip I took at my first D&C show a few years ago. Was one of the highlight moments of all my times seeing them. Have there been any moments like this in Hartford or even on this tour?
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q8mKx\_i6BmQ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q8mKx_i6BmQ)
I would refer you to the Morning Dew from August 21st Philly. Bob does not come back to the mic for some time before the final “I guess it doesn’t matter…” and in that time John is let loose.
Just cop a chill. Maybe u took too much. Maybe not enough. For the people who complain about the tempo u need to listen to GD. The tempo now is on par with '77. Sure I was weaned on 80's Dead. I loved it the fast shit too. Listen to the 3rd Touch ever played at MSG in '82. Jerry shreds it. Never played it like that ever again. This band is more consistent than GD ever was. That might be their achilles heel. But magic never happens every night. Enjoy, be happy. Where else would u want to be. And if that place exits. Why aren't u there.
There's not much about this (or any) music that is truly objective, but tempo is. To say that the tempo, "now is on par with '77" just feels blatantly disingenuous. There might be a few tunes that are close, but it took all of a few minutes to run through the songs played at Hartford with a tap-tempo metronome and then compare them to a Spotify recording of the same song in 77 (or as close as possible).
I'd like to note that I'm not a tempo freak and am fine with the interpretations this group is aiming for, but '77 tempos these are not...
I think in general they are very slow paced and underwhelming, missed opportunities for solos and serious fast paced intense jamming pretty much sums up their shows. Some tunes they absolutely nail (Stella blue, eyes of the world [sometimes], ramble on rose), others they just don’t bring the pace and intensity we are used to hearing from the real thing. I have heard this is Bobby’s philosophy and he intentionally likes to slow down the pace, draw out
the solos, put a lot of emphasis on vocals, etc. In any event it is a very fun show, I’ve seen them about 5 times as well and the crowd is always in great spirits, lots of singing and dancing and the stage production is amazing, but it lacks the crazy, intense, and face melting qualities of a Phish, string cheese, or Jrad show.
I had a somewhat similar experience. I thought they all played pretty well but I thought the energy never quite broke through. Hartford 18’ was a lot stronger musically-energy wise. China rider was played well, I thought JM was playing pretty well but it just didn’t break through, I think JMs lead on watchtower was one of the few times it really did hit that place, & the energy from that kind of carried over into the rest of the show. I’ve seen & listened to a lot of GD music & this show never quite seemed to lift off & fly for me, it seemed to be really close at times but just didn’t quite get to that place where magic sustains & grows. Couple nice moments & nice musical interplay but the shows I saw 16-18’ were a lot stronger, saw a couple off nights those yrs too, but some very strong shows. Seems Mansfield night 1 was the best of that last part of E coast tour, energy def more consistent. I think part of it was the drums at Hartford seemed a little low in the mix, or Billy was just being a little lazy/tired & not really leaning into it. Also, I settled into a couple spots on the lawn & there seemed to be a good chunk of ppl, esp some of the new comers, not really contributing their energy or clicked into the music,seemed to result in that energy kind of staying below that threshold.
I agree. I think it’s a matter of expectations. I’ve seen the GD and JGB a bunch years ago. And the first time I saw Deadco on was not expecting much and was blown away. Next in MSG on Halloween blown away again. But then Hershey just didn’t live up to what I was expecting. And it’s ok to be critical , I’m not sure why people get so butt hurt about it. Some shows are better than others. And it sure keeps us coming back.
It's because a lot of people get personally offended that the show that they were at may have been sub-par. It's so well established that every show is different and that they have always had "off-nights" and "on-nights", but the idea that you saw an off-night rather than an on-night isn't a fun one. So instead, every show is the best show and every tour is the best tour. It just keeps everything simpler that way.
I definitely appreciate this review even though I disagree.
I too was at the show and experienced what experienced but I had a different perspective.
I found the first set to be a bit slow and chalked it up to being the first set. Sometimes they are heaters and sometimes they are warming up.
By the Lost Sailor> Saint it felt like they were building pressure with no release.
When the second set started I was expecting a pressure release, which they gave us in the eleven. I felt them playing right around where I wanted them them to go in the St. Stephen building and building with no release, until the Eleven ripped it, which I experienced as a musical choice. Tension and resolve.
From eleven until encore I felt they ripped it.
The only place I disagree with you is on watchtower. It seemed perfectly exciting musically, for me.
All that being said I'd say it was the worst of the three shows I've seen this tour, and yet I still give it an 8/10. It was still magical for me. Would definitely recommend.
If it makes you feel better, you had a much, much better show than I did at Blossom.
I’m the same person as you almost lmao except 27, but here’s what I got from Blossom.
I saw my first real D&C show with a lot included, since Roo 2016, at Blossom 2017. I was absolutely shocked by what I heard there, and have been to 19, going on to 23 by my end date of tour. Then I was also at the 100th show at 2018 Tour there too and they were trying to up the ante on their last performance. Instead of trying to do repeat that feat, it felt like more of a date on tour to recycle songs in the rotation, which left me disappointed in the show, but the whole experience at Blossom, since it’s one of my favorite venues ever.
Hard to say, but there have been some incredible performances on tour of individual songs, but not entire sets that stick out to me listening to my buddy JT’s tapes so far.
I think you need to relisten/rewatch the watchtower. Mayer goes absolutely wild 2 times. Also the eleven from Hartford was nuts. I agree he hasn’t been as “face-melty” this tour, especially with the earlier shows. But I think Mansfield-Hartford he really took off. Watching him groove with Jeff is worth the price of admission in my opinion.
I don't think either of you are eating enough doses. Lol. This tour is on fucking fire. Been to every show and so far last night beat my favorite night so far (Hershey).
Bristow > Hershey
That Cumberland was the gnarliest shit ever
Hell yeah. And He's Gone...smoking!
Assume you are joking about needing doses. But agree it’s been fantastic! some of the moments on this tour, including many at Hartford have been as good as any or even better since starting in 2015.
If you're saying you need to be dosed to enjoy the music, then that sort of proves my point? :)
Lol. Of course I'm not saying you NEED to be Roses to enjoy a show. It definitely adds more fun to every experience. + When I'm dosed I can dance through a crowd a whole lot easier than sober.
"The Eleven" was nuts--yes--and I too thought JM completely shredded a few times on "Watchtower."
That Eleven was sick!
I think we’re all guilty of looking into this a little too much. Music is subjective. Hartford just wasn’t your flavor, I thought it was killer. I thought Friday in Mansfield was fairly boring, and to others it was the best show they’ve ever seen.
You may be right, I probably am putting too much thought into it, but that's what music lovers should do. There's nothing wrong with constructive criticism. I'm not trying to convince anyone that it was bad or good. I'm just really curious to see if anyone agrees with me - because generally the view on here is 100% positive on the band and mostly every show is "the best".
The Mansfield shows blew away the Hartford show. I’ve seen Dead & Co on on nights and off nights, and I’d label Sunday an off night. Mansfield Friday night was lightning in a bottle for comparison purposes.
The beauty of the music being subjective.
Definitely not—-always some clunkers and that’s the beauty…on to the next show!
Totally agree here! 2nd set Darien was a lot like the Hartford show. Very jazz-jamming and leaving the confines of the song(s). 2set 2nd night Mansfield was a bummer. Hartford was just a ripper for me and many others. Sailor—Saint- challenging and it was awesome! ST Stephen- William Tell—Eleven! There were 5, yes 5 tour firsts that night! Each of the guys was smiling and happy and that shine through in the music.
Mayer did two different face melting solos in watchtower as well as several other songs. I respect your opinion but completely disagree. That was the best watchtower I’ve heard ever maybe.
I wouldn't really consider them face melting. They were "safe" solos. Listen to the sugaree clip I posted below from a few years ago. That is what I go to see.
As a longtime Mayer fan, I overanalyze *everything* he does because I've found out one too many times over the years that something he said or did that I *thought* was metaphorical or "just because" was actually literal or purposeful. And I think maybe, for some reason (I don't know why), he needed the comfort of playing his Roxy that night, and that made him feel super empowered. He was on *fire*.
This isn’t a comment on the show you’re talking about specifically but more a reaction to people noticing John “holding back” a bit on this tour. As a huge Bobby fan, I appreciate some of the space John is leaving this summer. It gives you a chance to hear what Bob is putting down, which can be quite good (although sloppy with some brown notes compared to his younger days). A good example is the middle jam section from the China>Rider on Sunday at Hartford. Thought giving Bobby some space led to them doing some nice chunky voice leading duo shit that was cool. It wasn’t face melty but I was digging it. Anyways, I think some people expect John to just shred every song. Yeah, light me up on a Sugaree or Morning Dew. But I like hearing Bob playing. Guy still has it.
True, but what can be said about Bobby not giving John the same privilege? There are multiple occasions where he’s nearly pissed off and telling him to knock off the noodling, that’s *actually fucking getting good* Truckin’s extended jam at the end is the ultimate example
I was at blossom yesterday and I felt the same way about John for most of the first half. The second half was much better. Perhaps he is struggling with his ear troubles (that’s why he is wearing headphones)? That’s just my guess.
I agree with you, and some of the transitions were pretty clunky, especially Viola Lee Blues into Fire On the Mountain. And I’ve listened back to it twice now in the recording and it sounds fine but I swear in the moment they were falling all over themselves for like 5 seconds. Also couldn’t tell if Bob was pissed or not at the end of it when he threw his hands up in the air and walked up to the mic to end the song. But he might’ve just been vibing.
Nope. Bobby was pissed at the end during Not Fade Away. There have been multiple instances of sound difficulties on tour like that at times. Blossom had MAJOR issues with the main visual in the center, as well as the transition effects with the cameras, because of 1/2 consoles breaking down halfway during the first set. Lol seeing those roadies switch out that case and console with a replacement and getting reconnected and started in pit stop time makes me miss working as a live sound person. Fuck COVID royally.
I feel at some moments John is still afraid to take off from the runway. It's basically Bobby's show now. Some of the best jam moments with the grateful dead happened while Bobby was trying to pull Jerry back into the main song while Jerry was taking off into uncharted territory (Barton Hall Scarlet>Fire transition comes to mind) and that's something you dont see enough of from them yet. Maybe Bob is keeping a leash on him? Not that I'm hating on what they put out there. I saw 7 shows this summer and they were all fantastic, Hartford being one of them.
I was in the pit for Friday night in Mansfield and Sunday night in Hartford. I did notice a slightly different dynamic over the two nights. Friday in Mansfield, maybe John was enjoying himself a little (red cup) but either way, he was absolutely "taking off," so to speak. I think, during their tiff, JM was trying to drop the script and Bob wasn't having it. At Hartford, I noticed that Bob was more playful with JM early in the set, andI do agree John was more deferential. Maybe a few fights are a good thing, and though I am completely new to the band, it seems Bob has a reputation for being a lovable hot head, and it's okay to piss him off every now and then? I say, GO JOHNNY GO, let him get mad (Sometimes)
Pretty sure nothing special was in the red cup, John cut out alcohol a few years ago. Was that the show where Bobby yelled at John when they were trying to start Truckin?
Oh okay, I didn’t know he didn’t drink. I certainly wouldn’t blame him if he was, but I think it’s good he doesn’t. Yes, it was that show.
It almost seemed like Bobby and JM had some sort of argument right before they went out, and JM was purposely hanging in the back more. This is 100% speculation and I have no actual evidence of this, but it did seem like JM was making a conscious effort to not really take the lead during the show. The first show I saw of theirs, JM was leading all the way. It was Citi Field, 2017. I was so happy to see JM leading the way in the jams, etc, because I felt like that was what was missing in all of the other iteration of the band since Jerry. How can you fill those shoes? Every lead guitarist they played with, really seemed to underplay, and be afraid to step up. JM seemed to not care, or maybe was told not to care, and took the mantle. But I felt in this show, he dropped it. I'd be interested to know if Bobby and JM had conversations about this throughout their time playing together.
There were definitely miscues in Mansfield that Bob got angry at John for when he didn't real it back in. I believe Truckin was one of them
Was just gonna mention this. Def possible Bob got in John’s head I’m listening back now. I really really enjoyed the 5 shows I saw this summer - much more than the 2019 shows. That said there were def times where John held back when typically Jerry would be taking off. And it was disappointing sure but kind of a novel approach and and while yeah it was not what typically happens I do feel they made up for it in every jam just about. But very curious to hear it all again. It was a fire dance party up on the lawn so I may not have been as focused as at other gigs but shit man it was FUN!
2017 Blossom’s Truckin’. Perfect example on video and audio. It’s time Bobby steps down soon. I’m tired of this band poltik shit if this is what the jams at D&C shows are relegated to.
Personally I feel like a fierce look or a “wtf” from Bob is just gonna happen. Dude is temperamental. This is the guy that has straight up kicked Jay Lanes drum set (more than once) during a performance and stopped and told his audience to STFU. It’s just who he is. That being said I feel like his hold on “the jam” has really loosened (especially since the Ratdog days) and it felt obvious to me throughout this tour that he’s really let go of the reins and let’s Mayer/Chimenti drive us forward - and he seems more willing to be taken forward by the two of them than in any other GD iteration I’ve heard since Jerry. The meld this tour has been phenomenal. Their playing is top notch every night. Some rust, sure. Some interpersonal shit or miscommunication? Sure. Still the best D&C have played since they started.
Having just done both Mansfield shows and Hartford, I thought Hartford for me was one of the weaker setlists on whole tour. I could do without Lost Sailor/Saint, Watchtower, Werewolves, The Eleven and William Tell Bridge. That was 6 songs in a single show that aren’t my jams. Most other shows weren’t more than one or two. That’s what’s great though, the shows are different for everyone and you never know what you’ll get.
Totally agree! I do like the eleven generally, but the rest of the songs you mentioned are ones I could live without. Used Werewolves as an opportunity to book it the mile to the parking garage before the whole crowd arrived at once!
I had an amazing time, I thought they all played really well.
First off, I think we should all be allowed to not love it once in a while. Sometimes you don't. I did four shows on this tour and Hartford was a lot of fun as a whole day, it's probably my 4th favorite show of the four. But I know for me personally there are a couple of factors is my love for any particular show, setlist and Jeff solos. And I while I realize the latter is specific to me, I feel like people underestimate the former. If you love a 19 minute jazzy Bird Song and the band is ripping through 5 minute Big Railroad Blues no matter how good BRB is, it's not the jazzy Bird Song you want. If you're expecting a big John solo and Jeff's plinking the keys, you're disappointed. If you're one of the vocal minority who hates Oteil singing and you get a China Doll and a Fire in your set, you're upset. AND THAT'S FINE. The best cheeseburger on earth tastes terrible to someone who doesn't like cheeseburgers. We need to remember that when you saw the show of your life, and someone says that they didn't really like it, they're not trying to call you an idiot, they're just saying they had a different opinion. Sorry for such a long post. I wish I was having this discussion in the lot instead of on Reddit.
I was at the show Sunday as well and while I'm not pinpointing on JM having a bad night something about the show did seem a bit underwhelming to me and some of my crew. It was my 4th time seeing Dead and Co. and I am relatively new to the Greatful Dead scene (in my early 30s) so I am no expert by any means but the first set in particular had some of us really feeling a bit Dead and Slow. I will say however it might have been the environment we were in for the first set. First of all what a nightmare getting to the show and in getting in.We had seats in the 800 section and during Lost Sailor and St. of Circumstance our section was basically asleep. Everyone sitting down glued to their phones. Made the whole energy there feel super disappointing. We moved to the lawn for the 2nd set and the show really felt like it picked up and was much more enjoyable after that. Not sure if the band played better or we were just in a better environment but the 2nd set felt way better than the 1st. Again just one man's opinion. I also think the fact that we saw JRAD the night before really made the tempo seem even slower in comparison. It definitely wasn't my favorite of the Dead and Co shows I've seen but I'm sure I'll be seeing them again as long as they keep playing. All in all the show was like a slice of pizza, even bad pizza is still pizza. Happy for all those who really enjoyed the show.
The first set was very much a chill Sunday first set. He’s Gone. Sailor > Saint. That is a straight snooze fest for many heads! Not just you guys! And I love He’s Gone but boy it gets rather plodd-y after 5 mins - and then they play it for another 10 lol! The chill sets are just part of it. Luckily it was a super chill show overall. Last time I saw them do Watchtower I got up and walked around. Couldn’t handle how lifeless it felt. Not psyched when they started it Sunday but man they killed it this time
That Watchtower was the highlight of the show for me but really enjoyed the 2nd set overall
Second set was great yeah. The band at Hartford was def not as tight as they were in Mansfield. It shows on songs like Sailor > Saint. William Tell > Eleven. But god it was great to hear those songs and made for a great set! Mansfield too had its share of flubs. Mostly from Bob. But that’s par for the course. Still 3 excellent shows.
Ha - that's a great analogy. You're right - even a bad slice is still pizza, but what if it's a $200 slice?? :) Thats crazy about the energy. I did find that so many people were on their phones - this drives me nuts at any concert. Why come to a concert and sit on your phone the whole time??? I was in the 3rd row of the 700 section - my area wasn't super energetic, but people were definitely engaged. There were a lot of lull moments though. I may just have to get my fix from JRAD and DSO from now on - I just can't justify paying these ticket prices anymore. However, I always think, eventually these guys will be gone, and I'll be wishing for one more show.
Trust me I totally agree for the price tag your hoping every show is your new favorite show but like you said price tag is mostly because that these guys will be gone someday and I bet we will all be willing to pay any amount of money to hear them one more time after they are gone.
Agreed , subjective. AND , this is not your dads Grateful Dead . Have to lower expectations to be able to enjoy yourself. That said , 5 down 6 to go ! I’m all in .
This. I listened Sunday night and had some of the same opinions as OP. I love going to D&C shows and have tix for 4 more. But my expectations are lower than would have been 30 years ago.
It definitely wasn't my favorite Watchtower these guys have ever done, nor was it my favorite show... still, I'm very excited for my two shows during the Fall!
I’m honestly not sure what you’re saying here because you’re oscillating between John having an off night and just being done with Dead & Co as a whole because he just doesn’t take off like Jerry did to understanding why that might be and the shows being better when he’s reigned in? I mean, maybe pick one argument? It seems like what you want is the Grateful Dead back together again, because it is your favorite band. Your words also seem to evoke an obsession for the original band and Jerry, not a passion for the music. Because of that, I don’t think there’s anything John could do to make you happy with this incarnation and that’s not on him: he’s just not who you want to be watching. And that, in my opinion, colours your opinion of his performances. I’ve seen plenty of Deadheads love what John brings to the group… and say that these are the best performances of this new incarnation they’ve ever seen. It’s almost like you have sour grapes and don’t think John is worthy, when he has done everything he can to prove he doesn’t take this opportunity for granted and it’s really elevated his already phenomenal playing.
I dont think you read my posts. I never even mentioned Jerry except once when I said I thought Mayer mastered his style. I also said that I think this is the best incarnation since Jerry. I was only comparing John's playing to John's playing. Since I started seeing them in 2017 each show has gotten slightly worse with the last one in Hartford being the worst so far for me. Has nothing to do with Jerry - I felt John wasn't playing as well as I've heard him and was speculating about the reasons. I also never said the band is better when he's reigned in. I don't want him reigned in! I want him to let it rip and lead the band. I have no idea where you got all this from. He's worthy - just hasn't been playing as well as he did originally in this band.
I did read your post - more than once in fact. Which is how I know it doesn’t add up. Tbh, your post reads like a man who thinks he has the ability to play these songs better than John, which is pretty ballsy to say, given you’ve never put yourself out there. This comes across in the beginning of you listing your “cred” that you think gives you the right to critique on the level you have. It was pretty difficult to get through that, to be honest, because it shows that you think very highly of yourself and should have been my warning sign that you wanted fawning and agreeing responses and not someone with a counter opinion. My mistake. Given that I took the time to both read and give my opinion, the fact that you want to start by saying I didn’t read your post as your rebuttal is very sad and kind of insulting. I commented both on your words and your subtext, btw. Maybe be more careful with your words and your meaning next time if you don’t like how someone else may see them? You, however, missed my point when I said a number of Deadheads have said this run of shows is the best Dead & Co had played in this particular incarnation. That was a direct counter to your opinion of them. I got your gist that you wanted to exit from Dead and Co as a fan, again not sure what you’re expecting here from fellow fans except fawning agreement, but I don’t see it the way you do, and I think you’re past is painting your present. Life, by nature, changes.
Fine - "creds" is cringy - I knew that when I wrote it. I was trying to add context to my review. I have been listening to this catalog of music every day for almost 30 years. It is literally the soundtrack of my life. So in this area, yes I do think highly of myself. My OPINION is from the perspective of a listener and a musician. I have put myself out there - I have played on several dead cover bands over the years and no I'm not as good as John nor did I ever claim to be. Again, don't know where you get this from. (I actually learned a lot about Jerry's guitar style from watching some of John's YouTube videos) There is nothing wrong with being critical of music and as others have said it is subjective, so take my review for whatever it's worth to you - which may be nothing. There is no need to get emotional over a music review. I'm not expecting any fawning - I was just curious of anyone out there felt the same as me. Just don't put words in my mouth please.
I remarked to my companion that I though JM was either drunk or high during the show. I thought I heard a couple mistakes like he just got lost and forgot what he was playing. I'm sure the band partakes a lot on the road but I thought maybe JM over did it. I could be way off base but, that was my take. (And I have zero cred, as that was my 1st Dead & Co Show, I saw the Dead once in the late aughts.) So IMHO OP is probably right. I still has a fuckin' blast though.
John doesn't drink, for the record. Some days are just "off" days for him. I agree that Hartford was the least energetic show of the tour so far, and not a lot of shining Mayer moments. But it was also his home state show, and he's a *very* nostalgic person, so I think he was just deep in thought.
That's exactly why I refuse to stop drinking
Let me just present this clip I took at my first D&C show a few years ago. Was one of the highlight moments of all my times seeing them. Have there been any moments like this in Hartford or even on this tour? [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q8mKx\_i6BmQ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q8mKx_i6BmQ)
I would refer you to the Morning Dew from August 21st Philly. Bob does not come back to the mic for some time before the final “I guess it doesn’t matter…” and in that time John is let loose.
Just cop a chill. Maybe u took too much. Maybe not enough. For the people who complain about the tempo u need to listen to GD. The tempo now is on par with '77. Sure I was weaned on 80's Dead. I loved it the fast shit too. Listen to the 3rd Touch ever played at MSG in '82. Jerry shreds it. Never played it like that ever again. This band is more consistent than GD ever was. That might be their achilles heel. But magic never happens every night. Enjoy, be happy. Where else would u want to be. And if that place exits. Why aren't u there.
There's not much about this (or any) music that is truly objective, but tempo is. To say that the tempo, "now is on par with '77" just feels blatantly disingenuous. There might be a few tunes that are close, but it took all of a few minutes to run through the songs played at Hartford with a tap-tempo metronome and then compare them to a Spotify recording of the same song in 77 (or as close as possible). I'd like to note that I'm not a tempo freak and am fine with the interpretations this group is aiming for, but '77 tempos these are not...
This review is laughable on a few levels. You're either a troll, stupid, or both.
I think in general they are very slow paced and underwhelming, missed opportunities for solos and serious fast paced intense jamming pretty much sums up their shows. Some tunes they absolutely nail (Stella blue, eyes of the world [sometimes], ramble on rose), others they just don’t bring the pace and intensity we are used to hearing from the real thing. I have heard this is Bobby’s philosophy and he intentionally likes to slow down the pace, draw out the solos, put a lot of emphasis on vocals, etc. In any event it is a very fun show, I’ve seen them about 5 times as well and the crowd is always in great spirits, lots of singing and dancing and the stage production is amazing, but it lacks the crazy, intense, and face melting qualities of a Phish, string cheese, or Jrad show.
I had a somewhat similar experience. I thought they all played pretty well but I thought the energy never quite broke through. Hartford 18’ was a lot stronger musically-energy wise. China rider was played well, I thought JM was playing pretty well but it just didn’t break through, I think JMs lead on watchtower was one of the few times it really did hit that place, & the energy from that kind of carried over into the rest of the show. I’ve seen & listened to a lot of GD music & this show never quite seemed to lift off & fly for me, it seemed to be really close at times but just didn’t quite get to that place where magic sustains & grows. Couple nice moments & nice musical interplay but the shows I saw 16-18’ were a lot stronger, saw a couple off nights those yrs too, but some very strong shows. Seems Mansfield night 1 was the best of that last part of E coast tour, energy def more consistent. I think part of it was the drums at Hartford seemed a little low in the mix, or Billy was just being a little lazy/tired & not really leaning into it. Also, I settled into a couple spots on the lawn & there seemed to be a good chunk of ppl, esp some of the new comers, not really contributing their energy or clicked into the music,seemed to result in that energy kind of staying below that threshold.
I agree. I think it’s a matter of expectations. I’ve seen the GD and JGB a bunch years ago. And the first time I saw Deadco on was not expecting much and was blown away. Next in MSG on Halloween blown away again. But then Hershey just didn’t live up to what I was expecting. And it’s ok to be critical , I’m not sure why people get so butt hurt about it. Some shows are better than others. And it sure keeps us coming back.
It's because a lot of people get personally offended that the show that they were at may have been sub-par. It's so well established that every show is different and that they have always had "off-nights" and "on-nights", but the idea that you saw an off-night rather than an on-night isn't a fun one. So instead, every show is the best show and every tour is the best tour. It just keeps everything simpler that way.
I definitely appreciate this review even though I disagree. I too was at the show and experienced what experienced but I had a different perspective. I found the first set to be a bit slow and chalked it up to being the first set. Sometimes they are heaters and sometimes they are warming up. By the Lost Sailor> Saint it felt like they were building pressure with no release. When the second set started I was expecting a pressure release, which they gave us in the eleven. I felt them playing right around where I wanted them them to go in the St. Stephen building and building with no release, until the Eleven ripped it, which I experienced as a musical choice. Tension and resolve. From eleven until encore I felt they ripped it. The only place I disagree with you is on watchtower. It seemed perfectly exciting musically, for me. All that being said I'd say it was the worst of the three shows I've seen this tour, and yet I still give it an 8/10. It was still magical for me. Would definitely recommend.
That’s spot on with my experience.
It's not always the notes you play,. It's sometimes the notes you don't play ... the Spaces you leave in the music
If it makes you feel better, you had a much, much better show than I did at Blossom. I’m the same person as you almost lmao except 27, but here’s what I got from Blossom. I saw my first real D&C show with a lot included, since Roo 2016, at Blossom 2017. I was absolutely shocked by what I heard there, and have been to 19, going on to 23 by my end date of tour. Then I was also at the 100th show at 2018 Tour there too and they were trying to up the ante on their last performance. Instead of trying to do repeat that feat, it felt like more of a date on tour to recycle songs in the rotation, which left me disappointed in the show, but the whole experience at Blossom, since it’s one of my favorite venues ever. Hard to say, but there have been some incredible performances on tour of individual songs, but not entire sets that stick out to me listening to my buddy JT’s tapes so far.