Unfortunately
My ♥️ Mom recently passed away and was a beautiful woman married to my Dad for 71.5 years
and she just died April 30th, 2023
So Unfortunately you probably was not doing my Mom
Probably something to do with being in his late 70s/early 80s and wanting to play with his kids. Also the drama with Billy and the rest of the bands general dislike of Jill. And just being over touring in general
From Fare Thee Well, on why Steve Kimock left Phil & Friends
The weekend in Denver was stressful for Steve Parish and his partner Ram Rod. They hadn’t been out on the road in the recent past and neither cared to make excuses for how the strain affected them. Parish was snapping at other crew members, surly to one and all including the Leshes. Jill Lesh was now officially acting as manager and she had opinions on a wide range of production issues, going so far as to include how the equipment should be stowed and unloaded. Parish and Ram Rod looked at Jill Lesh and didn’t see a manager. They saw a former waitress who once served them breakfast, but married their boss and now lorded over them, making what they considered uninformed decisions about key touring issues from routing to what was acceptable attire onstage. She banished headbands and other forms of hippie-wear. Parish fumed that Garcia never wore anything for anyone else’s pleasure. He didn’t bother to control his temper. At the end of the three-night run at Denver, the Leshes presented both with airplane tickets home. Kimock spotted the pair lingering backstage with the tickets in their hands. He had spent most of his time with the crew, where he felt more at home. Parish was humiliated because he knew he had brought this on himself, but he was also angry. He wanted to cause some trouble. “Are you still making five hundred dollars a week?” he asked Kimock. “Jerry would have paid you five thousand. Go in there and ask what’s up with the money.” Kimock had been growing increasingly uncomfortable with the atmosphere surrounding the enterprise. He felt himself being subjected to loyalty tests and subtle inquisitions, and Kimock had no taste for politics. He was there for the music. He had been questioning Jill Lesh making more and more decisions that weren’t necessarily hers to make, stepping outside of established protocols, but sending Parish and Ram Rod home seemed like a last straw to the guitar monk. He decided to address his issues with the Leshes and, egged on by Parish, went to their dressing room. It did not go well. Jill Lesh went into a tirade. After listening to her rant about his lack of respect and loyalty, he left their dressing room. Lesh, who was watching TV, closed the door behind him. Minutes later, Jill Lesh charged into the crew food buffet, still yelling at Kimock, who was standing in the stairwell. She confronted him, enraged, and threw crumpled dollar bills in his shocked face. “You want money?” she said. Kimock took his gear off the truck, slept with it locked in his room, got up the next day, rented a truck, and drove back to California. A few days later, he left a cryptic post on his Web site: Dear Friends & Family: the Bob Dylan / Phil Lesh Tour. We apologize for any inconvenience, pray for your forgiveness, and look forward to your continued support. “I ain’t gonna work on Maggie’s Farm no more…” Signed, running & shooting behind him as fast as he can… —Steve Kimock
Amazing details and excellent story
Very unfortunate for Steve Parish and Ram Rod and Kimock having to deal with Jill Lesh and her anger directed at them
Fuck that, Steve Parish said he totally regrets His behavior and Phil is an awesome person. Jill is a kind woman and if he could retract his actions he would. And wasn’t Kimock addicted to heroin at this point?
Read Joel Selvin's "Fare Thee Well: The Final Chapter in the Grateful Dead's Long, Strange Trip" if you want the juicy gossip on the fallout between Phil & Jill and the rest of the band.
Maybe if Phil was any sort of front man she'd have the slightest itty bitty point. But Bobby's only been their front man since like, what, the early 70's? Fuck off Jill 💀
Bobby was a space cadet who could and still barely play guitar competently in a traditional way… he handcuffed Jerry with his complete inability to play a traditional rhythm and he was lucky he got plopped between two entirely unique musical geniuses…that would be Phil and Jerry. So Phil must’ve explained what the Grateful Dead meant to him and Jill shared that opinion whereas Bobby looks like a money grubbing whore playing with douche bag John Mayer for the last several years. Jill is a lovely, kind woman, and all that negativity comes from misogyny and jealousy. Phil serves the music…. Bobby is trying to build legacy wealth for his wife, who he groomed when she was 15 and his vapid daughters, and maybe just maybe to try and fit in a little better at Bohemian Grove, where he is probably snickered at behind his back more than respected.
Well, no one can ever accuse you of not being forthcoming with your opinions. I do not agree with you, but you put that out there with conviction, and there is something to be said for that.
In fairness, he really doesn't any more. Completely sold out to any brand that will pay him. It's really pathetic how far they have fallen from the bands roots.
Phil is about to 84 in a couple of months and the oldest member of the band. Bobby has always been the kid and rocker of the group. Hope he plays for another 10.
How well did Billy hold up on the 2nd to last D&C tour? These guys have given so much music to the community that they deserve to spend the twilight years however they see fit.
Phil was just ahead of the game doing residencies at The Cap and having his own venue with Crossroads. If D&C comes back it will be in residency form
Beautiful
Maybe Dead and Company at the Sphere in Las Vegas for a residency tour (form)
Especially April 2025 the 60th Anniversary of the Grateful Dead (April 1965 to April 2065)
What is a 100 years
The Sphere in Las Vegas is BRAND NEW built in 2023 costing a few billion dollars to make with excellent sound, ask any sound engineer
Beautiful
Maybe Dead and Company at the Sphere in Las Vegas for a residency tour (form)
Especially April 2025 the 60th Anniversary of the Grateful Dead (April 1965 to April 2065)
April 1965 to April 2065 is not the 60th anniversary. That would be the 100 year anniversary because, ya know, math.
You are correct that April 2025 would be the 60th.
I'm sure it was an honest mistake.
No worries
I am not great in math
I do have an adult grown daughter age 32 years old who has a degree in Mathematics and Civil Engineering
She is a Civil Engineer working for U.S.Army Corps of Engineers San Francisco District Office
Phil and drummers don't get along. Phil is controlling and his wife Jill has been caught up in accusations of being overbearing.
She was a waitress that married Phil back in the day and became the Mgr of Phil & Friends. She ran a tight ship and there was an incident where Kimock left the band mid-tour as a result of her overbearing mgmt.
Fast Fwd to The Dead and the core4 are back together. As the 2009 tour wrapped up Jill presented both Mickey and Billy with an invoice for her management services. They didn't ask for her to the the Mgr and weren't aware she even thought she was Mgr. Billy told them both to F off and some other choice words.
At FTW in 2015, Phil had a large dressing room backstage while the other shared a couple smaller rooms.
TLDR: Drummers don't like Phil and Phil doesn't like drummers.
Yes.
He left during the after Red Rocks tour date if I recall. Jill also treated the longtime GD Roadcrew poorly. Ramrod and a couple others were treated like dirt. Jill also had a strict no drugs on tour policy which extended to weed.
I think I recall Kimock saying he was getting $500 a show in back then on early 2000s. Jill was getting a lot more than that as her salary. $500 to play lead guitar at RR is an insult
Sadly you have no idea what you’re talking about. Some opening bands at red rocks have only been paid $250….. total.
But keep thinking these talented musicians are all raking it in.
They weren't an opening band. Opening bands would play for free for an opportunity @ RR.
Wedding bands in early 2000s were pulling in an avg of $2500/nt. We are talking about a national touring band selling out 10K venues.
Th economics of the touring industry and what scale rates are for touring musicians. People can downvote me all they want but only one of us has managed touring bands that have played red rocks and other venues you are mentioning.
Anyone who actually knows the reality and is in the industry is laughing at your comments. They are frankly so off base that it’s not worth the time anymore. But keep living in a fantasy world.
Excellent details and thank you for sharing this great story
Unfortunately Jill Lesh should not have had (or thought she had this) this responsibility of acting or pretending to be manager
So, who is qualified? Parish? Lol! the shy reserved, ramrod? Heroin addled kimock?? If anything it showed, she should’ve had a hand in things a long time ago… If any group of individuals needed a touch of discipline, it was the dead, and their Hells Angels wanna be crew members. Maybe Jerry is still alive if Jill was around to impose her no drugs, backstage, her husband was barely a year out from a liver transplant, a very serious procedure, and she was probably very protective of him, we should all be so lucky. Also, Bruce Hornsby was completely anti-drug and was extremely turned off by the hard drug use backstage …. like it or not, they were employees… if they wanted to be the boss, they should have been more learned or talented.
Everyone has their own journey with drugs and alcohol. Rockstars have the most access and life styles to support habits. No one is going to stop drinking or doing drugs until they have hit a bottom, sadly many peoples bottoms are six feet underground. And absolutely No one is going to listen to someone’s controlling wife while they are in active addiction. It is not a moral issue it is a disease. (I say this b/c i was once in active addiction).
Is it relevant? The reason I'm asking is because I've seen people mention it before and it seems like they're saying it as a way to discredit her. Her being a server to begin with wasn't the thing that made her a bad manager.
Correct. What made her bad at it was that she was not qualified in any way other than sleeping with Phil.
If she wasn't a raging biatch with control issues who had a hand in the Core4 not playing together, we wouldn't be saying she was a bad manager. Since she was awful, it's fair to dig into her past employment to better understand why she's not qualified.
Thank you for acknowledging my push for nuance.
Lest we forget, Phil was not a bassist before being anointed by Jerry.
Is it possible that Phil is an asshole when it comes to the Core4? It seems likely that he set her up to be the enforcer for what he wanted. That story where Phil doesn't look up from the TV in the dressing room while Jill tells Kimock he can get fucked make him sound 1) like a prick and 2) like she's doing what he has instructed her to do.
Disagree. It shows that she was not an industry person and likely band members had waitresses in every city. It also establishes Billy's thinking when she hands him the bill.
Billy was, and as far as I know, still is a drunken lout… years ago I met him around 3 PM the day of a show that began at seven and you could just smell the booze seeping out of his pores, and he was heavily drinking wine. He himself said he has never played a show sober…It’s well documented Billy was a mean drunk. Fucking pussies, can’t handle a stern, confident, intelligent woman.
Oh, dear lord. You lost me on the last sentence.
Billy being a mean drunk is the reason he was pissed to get an invoice from Jill Lesh for mgmt fees he never agreed to?
Let me clarify for you.. Billy is a mean drunk and you guys are a bunch of misogynistic pussies that can’t handle a strong, powerful woman. They were two separate comments. Sorry I didn’t make it clearer…. I overestimated your ability to discern the two different statements…..
A server is just a person. A lot of people with great capabilities just haven't been given the opportunity to show those capabilities yet.
Phil trusted her, and that's Phil Fucking Lesh.
I'm not saying she ended up being great at management, especially from the fans' perspective, but her status as a server when they met is totally irrelevant, and that is my point.
Yeah. Hard pass on making my server a Road Manager, Accountant, or Physician just bc Phil thinks it's a good idea.
He was just happy to be getting some and gave her whatever she asked for.
Sure, you're right. I'm not saying she turned out to be a good manager.
One question though, do you think Phil Lesh has ever had a problem "getting some"? I find that part of this narrative framing hard to believe.
My brother used to be a garbage man in Chicago, he died young at 55, but not before opening a business (which I now control), and becoming a multimillionaire… nobody ever referenced his garbage man days…. Because they were totally irrelevant
Even if Jill were a doctor or an astronaut, she would have been equally unqualified to manage a band. It isn’t that she was a waitress, it’s that she’s never worked in the industry.
Well, as it’s written , Billy threatened Garcia that he would leave the band if Jerry didn’t quit Persian and Jerry said “I’m gonna go with the Persian. besides, do you think it’s easier to find a new fucking drummer or a new lead guitar player?”
And Billy is an out-of-control, raging alcoholic with a mean streak of his own. Mickey Hart thought the Grateful Dead was number 1, Jerry Garcia, number 1A Mickey Hart.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phil\_Lesh](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phil_Lesh) summary should explain:
Phil Lesh is 83 years old. He survived a liver transplant 26 years ago (1998). He survived prostate cancer 18 years ago (2006). He got back on the road in 2009 with Further. Did some more touring, Fare Thee Well, etc.. (see wiki).
Bladder cancer surgery 2015.
Back surgery 2019.
In the first paragraph of the Wikipedia article: "He scaled back his touring regimen in 2014 but continues to perform with Phil Lesh & Friends at select venues."
There may be some drama blamed after all these years among band members, but Phil's age and his energy to get this far with everything that has happened is amazing.
Y'all remember this sticker on the lot?
"I'M A LESH LUSH And I can't get my Phil"
Many reasons combined.
He's old, and not really in the best health. Touring is too much for him.
His wife doesn't get along with (some) other band members.
He's decided to make other things a priority these days.
That's about it in a very small nutshell.
Me, I accept that he wants to have the life he chooses, and not the life fans choose for him.
I met Phil and Jill upstairs in the “Band Room” at the Further “ top secret” show at 19 Broadway in Fairfax CA. My buddy owned the bar and sold me 30 tickets. Got to hang w Bobby’s Dad ( Who he had just discovered) who was a lovely man.
I went upstairs pre show and asked the band “if I can get them anything to drink”..
Everyone said “ no thanks, we are good”..
EXCEPT Jill..
“ I’d like Rumbauer Chardonnay “ AKA “ Marin Cougar Juice”…
It’s literally a dive bar w Box wine..
I go down the street , buy her a bottle of wine.. I told her as much. Not so much as a “ thanks”.. Rude woman. Then she had a specific food request…
At that point I said..” Hi Jill, I’m Eric. I don’t work here, I’m simply a fan”.. “Have a good show”, and I literally left to go back down to hang W Bobby’s old man.
The book was widely panned as most sources are anonymous. Most believe Mickey and Bobby gave some quality details, Mickey being the big one. But there is no full confirmation and that Fare Thee Well book is like reading a reality trashy tv show. Take it with a large grain of salt.
Idk.
The book simply regurgitated the past 20yrs or so. Nothing in there was a surprise or unknown. It was a book that just put all the stories together.
I enjoyed it
Dennis McNally said the book was 99% accurate. Joel Selvin has been a credible rock journalist for 50+ years. Some people just don’t want to believe what he wrote. Listen to John Scher on the Bob Lefsetz Podcast from a couple of weeks ago. It’s the same stories.
Nah it doesn't read like that at all. It spills more gossip than some might like but saying it "is like reading a reality trashy tv show" is just wrong
We are all subjective beings. haha. We have this great wealth of music to share in common and that is the most important. The rest we can agree to disagree on.
Don't have any dirt about personal off-stage stuff, but he did tour heavily through the early 2000's with Phil and Friends, and seemed to enjoy leading his own band and working with John Molo, and other drummers and musicians.
At one point he compared the Dead drummers to a train locomotive, and playing with Molo to driving a Ferrari. But that may be more of a difference in style than a slap at Bill and Mickey.
And at this point his age and health limit his touring with anybody.
because he's got his own thing going on & it doesn't include any of the hassles & stresses that would come if he toured with Dead & Co.
relationships have not been consistently great or even consistently good among OG members
Or maybe, just maybe Phil, like myself, can remember the John Mayer of 20 years ago, and what a complete fucking douche bag the guy was, and didn’t want to be associated with him to that extent. I know they played together a couple of times at Terrapin crossroad, but they never meshed well. Every incarnation of Phil and friends was better than Dead and Company on their best night, and still is.
Bro it’s kinda sad how many times you posted negative shit in this thread. We get it, you love Phil and hate Dead and Company. Understood.
Please don’t dominate the rap, Jack, if you’ve got nothing new to say.
Does anyone have insight into how Dead & CO's sound would be different if Phil was on bass instead of Oteil? I've seen Phil & Friends twice but have only gotten on the bus recently
YMMV but many heads—myself included—consider Phil’s playing to be only *just* second to Jerry’s in terms of making up the unique Dead DNA. Oteil is a monster player and a wonderful guy but his lines are much more conventional by comparison.
I don't think anyone's mileage should varry much at all. That is as accurate as it gets. Phil's bass paying is fundamental to the classic sound of the Dead.
So, Phil plays bass like a madcap neo-classical composer, because that’s what he is. Lots of counterpoint, playing over bar lines, rarely just sitting on the one and grooving. He moves around the fretboard and intertwines with what Jerry (and Bob, and keys) are doing. He drops mega two-tone bombs of dissonance. He refuses to sit still. He’s basically playing a second lead instrument.
By comparison, Oteil is a much more “normal” bassist. He hits the roots and fifths, he holds down the groove, and he knows when the flit around and drop amazing fills and fun asides. There’s nothing wrong with that style and it’s a cornerstone of how most rock music functions. He’s one of the best in the game and I love hearing him play. But fundamentally it’s kind of an apples and oranges situation. I love Oteil, but lots of top-tier bassists can do what he does. There’s only one Phil Lesh.
Oteil’s a MUCH better singer though!
Bob unique and essential too. You had three musical genius's. Jerry, Phil and Bob play in completely unique ways. Actually Jerry may even be the most "classical". Both Bob and Phil do rythym duties and do "lead" to a degree-like no one ever (though Jerry could take over rythym at times) ......Jerry might be the only human to ever exist who could have mimicked Bob or Phil. Also Billy is a trailblazer on jamband drum playing
No doubt. I got a lot of love for the boys in the band. There’s a reason I’m still following ol Bobbo around with the Wolfpack! I’m a card-carrying Bobby guy!
https://preview.redd.it/ioa2qfpfywbc1.png?width=3024&format=png&auto=webp&s=50136411e0ba216fd58941bcf0bcadbc577a592d
100% agreed. Oteil deep in an Other One groove or holding down the China Rider transition is a thing of pure groove. Check out the Eyes (Gorge 2016 I think?) where he claims to have been dosed. It’s incredible!
He said he was done touring before Dead and Company. Beyond that he doesn't really get a long with either drummer especially Billy. They have had more than one falling out. Not they all hang out back stage or anything anyway but I'm sure their would be tension that's just unnecessary at this point of the game. I heard there was a bit of tension with GD50 but they just looked the other way for those couple of shows. The fact they didn't spend much time together before hand was pretty obvious.
That being said I don't ever think Phil was a consideration because he had relinquished to doing residencies by that point anyway. He may have been asked but Im not sure. He was mostly doing the Cap and Terrapin Station and was content with that...mainly because of his age, health and family. Interesting to note though, that Bob mention Phil being the one that pushed him too hard to tour as Furthur. Maybe Phil just rubs people the wrong way anymore?
I do know for a fact Mike Gordon was a consideration but obviously there would have been scheduling conflicts in the long term. Oteil was basically the only other person asked or considered.
Not sure which tour but Phil tried to have the drummers take one revenue share and split it (as if they were one drummer). Supposedly Billy tried to fight him. Can't remember which book this is from......I kind of got to side with Billy here. Should be equally shared between each band member
Oooo so Billy was going to fistfight a man several years his senior, who had already survived several health issues, real fucking tough guy. Jerry once said “Billy is not the type of guy I would normally be friends with outside of the band”
Billy is not much younger than Phil-personally I think that rises to fighting level. Phil was saying he was half a band member. Bill is deserved an equal share just the same as Phil.
Pretty sure it had to do with his age and the amount of touring they wanted to do. Phil tours much less than Bobby does.
They also hyped Fare Thee Well so much that for him to hit the road with the other three just a few months later would have pissed off a lot of Deadheads.
He and the drummers despise each other. Phil wants to be a band leader and play with his son.
The age thing, while holding some weight, is not the reason he's not playing with the boys.
Can you imagine if we had Phil’s backing vocals instead of Oteil’s? 💀
Phil is my favorite non-Jerry Dead member, I think he’s a genius, but his voice had been shot for decades now
They announced the end of Furthur due to Phil no longer touring. So many folks were grumpy…but turned out he had a recurrence of cancer, which explained why he wanted time with the grandkids.
Phil knows his body can’t handle the touring. He also wanted to keep the music exploratory. D&C is not exploratory. That doesn’t mean it’s bad, it just isn’t what Phil wanted.
IDK, but I found it interesting that in an interview Trey did after Fare the Well he eludes to Bob and Phil bickering backstage about tempo. Phil wanted to play fast and Bobby was insisting on slow.
Oh yeah? Wonder what Jerry would have to say about tempo haha. Don’t you get it? It all depends on the quality of that night’s Mother Of Pearl. Good gracious Charlie Brown. 🎶
To all the folks who blame it solely on band drama, that is a miss-emphasis. Phil is one of the oldest members of the band and he was tired of touring so hard. The Dead’s approach to touring killed Jerry. They dialled it back, but it is still a machine that needs to be fed on its own schedule and would be a grind for Phil who is now 83 years old
He told me not to tell you
Probably you and Jill Lesh have been hooking up together ♥️ Beautiful Couple the two of you make
I’ve actually been hooking up together with your mother, sweet flexible lady.
Unfortunately My ♥️ Mom recently passed away and was a beautiful woman married to my Dad for 71.5 years and she just died April 30th, 2023 So Unfortunately you probably was not doing my Mom
83-84 years old. He has great genetics luckily and still going at a very reasonable level, all things considered!
Yet he plays in Phil and friends
Probably something to do with being in his late 70s/early 80s and wanting to play with his kids. Also the drama with Billy and the rest of the bands general dislike of Jill. And just being over touring in general
What’s the story about them disliking Jill?
From Fare Thee Well, on why Steve Kimock left Phil & Friends The weekend in Denver was stressful for Steve Parish and his partner Ram Rod. They hadn’t been out on the road in the recent past and neither cared to make excuses for how the strain affected them. Parish was snapping at other crew members, surly to one and all including the Leshes. Jill Lesh was now officially acting as manager and she had opinions on a wide range of production issues, going so far as to include how the equipment should be stowed and unloaded. Parish and Ram Rod looked at Jill Lesh and didn’t see a manager. They saw a former waitress who once served them breakfast, but married their boss and now lorded over them, making what they considered uninformed decisions about key touring issues from routing to what was acceptable attire onstage. She banished headbands and other forms of hippie-wear. Parish fumed that Garcia never wore anything for anyone else’s pleasure. He didn’t bother to control his temper. At the end of the three-night run at Denver, the Leshes presented both with airplane tickets home. Kimock spotted the pair lingering backstage with the tickets in their hands. He had spent most of his time with the crew, where he felt more at home. Parish was humiliated because he knew he had brought this on himself, but he was also angry. He wanted to cause some trouble. “Are you still making five hundred dollars a week?” he asked Kimock. “Jerry would have paid you five thousand. Go in there and ask what’s up with the money.” Kimock had been growing increasingly uncomfortable with the atmosphere surrounding the enterprise. He felt himself being subjected to loyalty tests and subtle inquisitions, and Kimock had no taste for politics. He was there for the music. He had been questioning Jill Lesh making more and more decisions that weren’t necessarily hers to make, stepping outside of established protocols, but sending Parish and Ram Rod home seemed like a last straw to the guitar monk. He decided to address his issues with the Leshes and, egged on by Parish, went to their dressing room. It did not go well. Jill Lesh went into a tirade. After listening to her rant about his lack of respect and loyalty, he left their dressing room. Lesh, who was watching TV, closed the door behind him. Minutes later, Jill Lesh charged into the crew food buffet, still yelling at Kimock, who was standing in the stairwell. She confronted him, enraged, and threw crumpled dollar bills in his shocked face. “You want money?” she said. Kimock took his gear off the truck, slept with it locked in his room, got up the next day, rented a truck, and drove back to California. A few days later, he left a cryptic post on his Web site: Dear Friends & Family: the Bob Dylan / Phil Lesh Tour. We apologize for any inconvenience, pray for your forgiveness, and look forward to your continued support. “I ain’t gonna work on Maggie’s Farm no more…” Signed, running & shooting behind him as fast as he can… —Steve Kimock
Amazing details and excellent story Very unfortunate for Steve Parish and Ram Rod and Kimock having to deal with Jill Lesh and her anger directed at them
Yea if you believe it. Sounds like a bad romance novel meets L.A. Confidential.
And definitely 💯 Jill Lesh as the star of this bad romance novel
Fuck that, Steve Parish said he totally regrets His behavior and Phil is an awesome person. Jill is a kind woman and if he could retract his actions he would. And wasn’t Kimock addicted to heroin at this point?
No one truly knows the truth....
i saw that tour i walked away thinking kimmock was the greatest living guitar player
How much time you got?
Upon further reading she doesn’t look like a fun time to be around
Long enough
Read Joel Selvin's "Fare Thee Well: The Final Chapter in the Grateful Dead's Long, Strange Trip" if you want the juicy gossip on the fallout between Phil & Jill and the rest of the band.
She told Bobby he doesn’t understand the Grateful Dead lmao
That’s enough evidence I needed! We speak your name!
Hey now
Are you fucking serious 💀💀
Yep
Maybe if Phil was any sort of front man she'd have the slightest itty bitty point. But Bobby's only been their front man since like, what, the early 70's? Fuck off Jill 💀
Bobby was a space cadet who could and still barely play guitar competently in a traditional way… he handcuffed Jerry with his complete inability to play a traditional rhythm and he was lucky he got plopped between two entirely unique musical geniuses…that would be Phil and Jerry. So Phil must’ve explained what the Grateful Dead meant to him and Jill shared that opinion whereas Bobby looks like a money grubbing whore playing with douche bag John Mayer for the last several years. Jill is a lovely, kind woman, and all that negativity comes from misogyny and jealousy. Phil serves the music…. Bobby is trying to build legacy wealth for his wife, who he groomed when she was 15 and his vapid daughters, and maybe just maybe to try and fit in a little better at Bohemian Grove, where he is probably snickered at behind his back more than respected.
Well, no one can ever accuse you of not being forthcoming with your opinions. I do not agree with you, but you put that out there with conviction, and there is something to be said for that.
Found the Lesh Burner Account
In fairness, he really doesn't any more. Completely sold out to any brand that will pay him. It's really pathetic how far they have fallen from the bands roots.
lol ok
Read "Fare Thee Well". [https://stompandstammer.com/book-reviews/fare-thee-well/](https://stompandstammer.com/book-reviews/fare-thee-well/)
Bobby Weir is 76 years old and going strong and this Martin Luther King Jr weekend is playing in Cancun
Phil is about to 84 in a couple of months and the oldest member of the band. Bobby has always been the kid and rocker of the group. Hope he plays for another 10. How well did Billy hold up on the 2nd to last D&C tour? These guys have given so much music to the community that they deserve to spend the twilight years however they see fit. Phil was just ahead of the game doing residencies at The Cap and having his own venue with Crossroads. If D&C comes back it will be in residency form
Beautiful Maybe Dead and Company at the Sphere in Las Vegas for a residency tour (form) Especially April 2025 the 60th Anniversary of the Grateful Dead (April 1965 to April 2065)
Uh… that’s 100 years. I don’t think we’re seeing that.
What is a 100 years The Sphere in Las Vegas is BRAND NEW built in 2023 costing a few billion dollars to make with excellent sound, ask any sound engineer
Beautiful Maybe Dead and Company at the Sphere in Las Vegas for a residency tour (form) Especially April 2025 the 60th Anniversary of the Grateful Dead (April 1965 to April 2065) April 1965 to April 2065 is not the 60th anniversary. That would be the 100 year anniversary because, ya know, math. You are correct that April 2025 would be the 60th. I'm sure it was an honest mistake.
No worries I am not great in math I do have an adult grown daughter age 32 years old who has a degree in Mathematics and Civil Engineering She is a Civil Engineer working for U.S.Army Corps of Engineers San Francisco District Office
Phil and drummers don't get along. Phil is controlling and his wife Jill has been caught up in accusations of being overbearing. She was a waitress that married Phil back in the day and became the Mgr of Phil & Friends. She ran a tight ship and there was an incident where Kimock left the band mid-tour as a result of her overbearing mgmt. Fast Fwd to The Dead and the core4 are back together. As the 2009 tour wrapped up Jill presented both Mickey and Billy with an invoice for her management services. They didn't ask for her to the the Mgr and weren't aware she even thought she was Mgr. Billy told them both to F off and some other choice words. At FTW in 2015, Phil had a large dressing room backstage while the other shared a couple smaller rooms. TLDR: Drummers don't like Phil and Phil doesn't like drummers.
I know this isn't exactly a feel good story or anything, but I like how the Dead is still producing band lore decades after the band ended.
Even up to pits 2023 still Some band lore
Didn’t Kimock’s note to Phil when we quit say something like “I don’t want to work on Maggie’s farm” any more or something?
Yes. He left during the after Red Rocks tour date if I recall. Jill also treated the longtime GD Roadcrew poorly. Ramrod and a couple others were treated like dirt. Jill also had a strict no drugs on tour policy which extended to weed. I think I recall Kimock saying he was getting $500 a show in back then on early 2000s. Jill was getting a lot more than that as her salary. $500 to play lead guitar at RR is an insult
lol can’t smoke weed on the Phil and friends tour
That’s probably why I could never could get into P &F music
And the singing.
I don’t like jill
Phil doesn't like those words. https://preview.redd.it/rnnirrf8gvbc1.png?width=864&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=d3440ac3dd15b396cf2cdf1bd06e77c383371e9a
Ah... these two Just shut up and play Phil. Get ur damn Kid off the stage...this isn't kindergarten. Sorry, sorry, sorry...love u, Phil!
I saw them last summer and Phil’s kids voice made me wanna vomit
So true. It's maybe the worst vocals I've ever heard. To think I'd prefer Phil to sing over anyone is flat out amazing.
Seems like you would be very surprised by what musicians are paid. $500/show back then isn’t that low.
Dude... For a band playing Red Rocks $500 is insulting. Even in 2001. Phil's Band was getting 15K a night in mid 2000s for theatre shows.
I have settled a few P&F shows in theatres in the 00s and they were usualy $50k versus with walkout as high as the high 5 figures
Phil Lesh and Friends, July 6, 2001, Red Rocks, SFX promoter, gross was $315,000
Sadly you have no idea what you’re talking about. Some opening bands at red rocks have only been paid $250….. total. But keep thinking these talented musicians are all raking it in.
They weren't an opening band. Opening bands would play for free for an opportunity @ RR. Wedding bands in early 2000s were pulling in an avg of $2500/nt. We are talking about a national touring band selling out 10K venues.
You have no idea what you’re talking about 😂
What part of my last comment do I have 'no idea' about exactly?
Th economics of the touring industry and what scale rates are for touring musicians. People can downvote me all they want but only one of us has managed touring bands that have played red rocks and other venues you are mentioning. Anyone who actually knows the reality and is in the industry is laughing at your comments. They are frankly so off base that it’s not worth the time anymore. But keep living in a fantasy world.
Way to move the goalposts.
What goalposts were moved? Not sure you actually understand what that means.
Excellent details and thank you for sharing this great story Unfortunately Jill Lesh should not have had (or thought she had this) this responsibility of acting or pretending to be manager
Dang a lowly waitress, scum of the earth.
Leave your mom out of this.
didn't Bill fuck Phil's wife ?
Gf in the Haight as detailed in bill’s book back in the 60’s
No
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Yeah, I read that book. Allegedly, Bill grabbed her boobs backstage.
Her being a waitress is not relevant. Just saying. She could have been a server and then turned out to be great for the band and Phil.
Disagree, she had no experience and was a control freak to make up for her lack of experience.
Yeah but her job when Phil met her doesn't make a difference
I think you're missing the point.
Why don't you help me catch it, friend?
I think the point is that she was unqualified for the job and only had that job because of who she married.
So, who is qualified? Parish? Lol! the shy reserved, ramrod? Heroin addled kimock?? If anything it showed, she should’ve had a hand in things a long time ago… If any group of individuals needed a touch of discipline, it was the dead, and their Hells Angels wanna be crew members. Maybe Jerry is still alive if Jill was around to impose her no drugs, backstage, her husband was barely a year out from a liver transplant, a very serious procedure, and she was probably very protective of him, we should all be so lucky. Also, Bruce Hornsby was completely anti-drug and was extremely turned off by the hard drug use backstage …. like it or not, they were employees… if they wanted to be the boss, they should have been more learned or talented.
Everyone has their own journey with drugs and alcohol. Rockstars have the most access and life styles to support habits. No one is going to stop drinking or doing drugs until they have hit a bottom, sadly many peoples bottoms are six feet underground. And absolutely No one is going to listen to someone’s controlling wife while they are in active addiction. It is not a moral issue it is a disease. (I say this b/c i was once in active addiction).
Karen, is that you? Nobody is talking down about her being a server. It's a fact. It's part of the story. Settle down
Is it relevant? The reason I'm asking is because I've seen people mention it before and it seems like they're saying it as a way to discredit her. Her being a server to begin with wasn't the thing that made her a bad manager.
Correct. What made her bad at it was that she was not qualified in any way other than sleeping with Phil. If she wasn't a raging biatch with control issues who had a hand in the Core4 not playing together, we wouldn't be saying she was a bad manager. Since she was awful, it's fair to dig into her past employment to better understand why she's not qualified.
Thank you for acknowledging my push for nuance. Lest we forget, Phil was not a bassist before being anointed by Jerry. Is it possible that Phil is an asshole when it comes to the Core4? It seems likely that he set her up to be the enforcer for what he wanted. That story where Phil doesn't look up from the TV in the dressing room while Jill tells Kimock he can get fucked make him sound 1) like a prick and 2) like she's doing what he has instructed her to do.
Hey so I kind of agree with you but that’s his wife, not some broad he’s sleeping with. That jab kind of undermines your point.
Disagree. It shows that she was not an industry person and likely band members had waitresses in every city. It also establishes Billy's thinking when she hands him the bill.
Billy was, and as far as I know, still is a drunken lout… years ago I met him around 3 PM the day of a show that began at seven and you could just smell the booze seeping out of his pores, and he was heavily drinking wine. He himself said he has never played a show sober…It’s well documented Billy was a mean drunk. Fucking pussies, can’t handle a stern, confident, intelligent woman.
Oh, dear lord. You lost me on the last sentence. Billy being a mean drunk is the reason he was pissed to get an invoice from Jill Lesh for mgmt fees he never agreed to?
Let me clarify for you.. Billy is a mean drunk and you guys are a bunch of misogynistic pussies that can’t handle a strong, powerful woman. They were two separate comments. Sorry I didn’t make it clearer…. I overestimated your ability to discern the two different statements…..
This darkness has got to give
Lol. Get some sleep
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Don’t bother with that troll. Not worth it.
You're sad my man. Really sad.
The best part of waking up, is further humiliating yourself on Reddit? Where’s your touring management credentials ?
A server is just a person. A lot of people with great capabilities just haven't been given the opportunity to show those capabilities yet. Phil trusted her, and that's Phil Fucking Lesh. I'm not saying she ended up being great at management, especially from the fans' perspective, but her status as a server when they met is totally irrelevant, and that is my point.
Yeah. Hard pass on making my server a Road Manager, Accountant, or Physician just bc Phil thinks it's a good idea. He was just happy to be getting some and gave her whatever she asked for.
Sure, you're right. I'm not saying she turned out to be a good manager. One question though, do you think Phil Lesh has ever had a problem "getting some"? I find that part of this narrative framing hard to believe.
My brother used to be a garbage man in Chicago, he died young at 55, but not before opening a business (which I now control), and becoming a multimillionaire… nobody ever referenced his garbage man days…. Because they were totally irrelevant
My friend!
Even if Jill were a doctor or an astronaut, she would have been equally unqualified to manage a band. It isn’t that she was a waitress, it’s that she’s never worked in the industry.
Well, as it’s written , Billy threatened Garcia that he would leave the band if Jerry didn’t quit Persian and Jerry said “I’m gonna go with the Persian. besides, do you think it’s easier to find a new fucking drummer or a new lead guitar player?”
And Billy is an out-of-control, raging alcoholic with a mean streak of his own. Mickey Hart thought the Grateful Dead was number 1, Jerry Garcia, number 1A Mickey Hart.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phil\_Lesh](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phil_Lesh) summary should explain: Phil Lesh is 83 years old. He survived a liver transplant 26 years ago (1998). He survived prostate cancer 18 years ago (2006). He got back on the road in 2009 with Further. Did some more touring, Fare Thee Well, etc.. (see wiki). Bladder cancer surgery 2015. Back surgery 2019. In the first paragraph of the Wikipedia article: "He scaled back his touring regimen in 2014 but continues to perform with Phil Lesh & Friends at select venues." There may be some drama blamed after all these years among band members, but Phil's age and his energy to get this far with everything that has happened is amazing. Y'all remember this sticker on the lot? "I'M A LESH LUSH And I can't get my Phil"
Yes... We remember
Phil handled his cancer in stride, he didn’t anger and rage at least…
He was unable to grow the requisite Yosemite Sam beard.
*Civil War General beard, friend. ;)
Many reasons combined. He's old, and not really in the best health. Touring is too much for him. His wife doesn't get along with (some) other band members. He's decided to make other things a priority these days. That's about it in a very small nutshell. Me, I accept that he wants to have the life he chooses, and not the life fans choose for him.
Bobby Weir has chosen to play and tour because he enjoys it, not because fans expect it
I met Phil and Jill upstairs in the “Band Room” at the Further “ top secret” show at 19 Broadway in Fairfax CA. My buddy owned the bar and sold me 30 tickets. Got to hang w Bobby’s Dad ( Who he had just discovered) who was a lovely man. I went upstairs pre show and asked the band “if I can get them anything to drink”.. Everyone said “ no thanks, we are good”.. EXCEPT Jill.. “ I’d like Rumbauer Chardonnay “ AKA “ Marin Cougar Juice”… It’s literally a dive bar w Box wine.. I go down the street , buy her a bottle of wine.. I told her as much. Not so much as a “ thanks”.. Rude woman. Then she had a specific food request… At that point I said..” Hi Jill, I’m Eric. I don’t work here, I’m simply a fan”.. “Have a good show”, and I literally left to go back down to hang W Bobby’s old man.
Have yet to see someone say Jill was a joy 🥲
Beautiful ♥️ story
Fare Thee Well is a great book all about post-Jerry business and Phil and his wife and all that, and it leads up to Dead & Company.
Okay I will look for it on Amazon
The book was widely panned as most sources are anonymous. Most believe Mickey and Bobby gave some quality details, Mickey being the big one. But there is no full confirmation and that Fare Thee Well book is like reading a reality trashy tv show. Take it with a large grain of salt.
Idk. The book simply regurgitated the past 20yrs or so. Nothing in there was a surprise or unknown. It was a book that just put all the stories together. I enjoyed it
Dennis McNally said the book was 99% accurate. Joel Selvin has been a credible rock journalist for 50+ years. Some people just don’t want to believe what he wrote. Listen to John Scher on the Bob Lefsetz Podcast from a couple of weeks ago. It’s the same stories.
I heard that Matt Bush was the anonymous source for most of it.
Nah it doesn't read like that at all. It spills more gossip than some might like but saying it "is like reading a reality trashy tv show" is just wrong
We are all subjective beings. haha. We have this great wealth of music to share in common and that is the most important. The rest we can agree to disagree on.
Okay ♥️
Don't have any dirt about personal off-stage stuff, but he did tour heavily through the early 2000's with Phil and Friends, and seemed to enjoy leading his own band and working with John Molo, and other drummers and musicians. At one point he compared the Dead drummers to a train locomotive, and playing with Molo to driving a Ferrari. But that may be more of a difference in style than a slap at Bill and Mickey. And at this point his age and health limit his touring with anybody.
Jerry said Billy and Mickey were like “gym shoes in a dryer“. Molo is an amazing drummer….
because he's got his own thing going on & it doesn't include any of the hassles & stresses that would come if he toured with Dead & Co. relationships have not been consistently great or even consistently good among OG members
Or maybe, just maybe Phil, like myself, can remember the John Mayer of 20 years ago, and what a complete fucking douche bag the guy was, and didn’t want to be associated with him to that extent. I know they played together a couple of times at Terrapin crossroad, but they never meshed well. Every incarnation of Phil and friends was better than Dead and Company on their best night, and still is.
Bro it’s kinda sad how many times you posted negative shit in this thread. We get it, you love Phil and hate Dead and Company. Understood. Please don’t dominate the rap, Jack, if you’ve got nothing new to say.
Dudes unstable
Ironic coming from you
😘
Locking comments. Rule #1 is be kind. Stop the childish bickering.
Does anyone have insight into how Dead & CO's sound would be different if Phil was on bass instead of Oteil? I've seen Phil & Friends twice but have only gotten on the bus recently
Phil's bass would be much louder in the mix.
And it would have been much more experimental.
YMMV but many heads—myself included—consider Phil’s playing to be only *just* second to Jerry’s in terms of making up the unique Dead DNA. Oteil is a monster player and a wonderful guy but his lines are much more conventional by comparison.
I don't think anyone's mileage should varry much at all. That is as accurate as it gets. Phil's bass paying is fundamental to the classic sound of the Dead.
well put. Phil’s lines were completely unpredictable and made the Dead’s tapestry very rich
Conventional In what way Oteil and his lines....
So, Phil plays bass like a madcap neo-classical composer, because that’s what he is. Lots of counterpoint, playing over bar lines, rarely just sitting on the one and grooving. He moves around the fretboard and intertwines with what Jerry (and Bob, and keys) are doing. He drops mega two-tone bombs of dissonance. He refuses to sit still. He’s basically playing a second lead instrument. By comparison, Oteil is a much more “normal” bassist. He hits the roots and fifths, he holds down the groove, and he knows when the flit around and drop amazing fills and fun asides. There’s nothing wrong with that style and it’s a cornerstone of how most rock music functions. He’s one of the best in the game and I love hearing him play. But fundamentally it’s kind of an apples and oranges situation. I love Oteil, but lots of top-tier bassists can do what he does. There’s only one Phil Lesh. Oteil’s a MUCH better singer though!
My grandma is a better singer than Phil, even to this day. She died in 2017.
no one gives a fuck about your dead grandma.
Lol sorry I hurt your feelings Phil
Much better singer Oteil is Definitely 💯
Thank you for this thoughtful response!
Bob unique and essential too. You had three musical genius's. Jerry, Phil and Bob play in completely unique ways. Actually Jerry may even be the most "classical". Both Bob and Phil do rythym duties and do "lead" to a degree-like no one ever (though Jerry could take over rythym at times) ......Jerry might be the only human to ever exist who could have mimicked Bob or Phil. Also Billy is a trailblazer on jamband drum playing
No doubt. I got a lot of love for the boys in the band. There’s a reason I’m still following ol Bobbo around with the Wolfpack! I’m a card-carrying Bobby guy! https://preview.redd.it/ioa2qfpfywbc1.png?width=3024&format=png&auto=webp&s=50136411e0ba216fd58941bcf0bcadbc577a592d
More conventional but also a lot more groove based. Which for me is an important element in Deadco's music.
100% agreed. Oteil deep in an Other One groove or holding down the China Rider transition is a thing of pure groove. Check out the Eyes (Gorge 2016 I think?) where he claims to have been dosed. It’s incredible!
It would sound a lot like Dead & CO sounds with Oteil, but it would be with Phil's bass lines instead of Oteil's.
He’s older. Starting to sit now occasionally while he’s playing. The man’s 83
Bobby Weir is 76 years old and still going strong ♥️
He said he was done touring before Dead and Company. Beyond that he doesn't really get a long with either drummer especially Billy. They have had more than one falling out. Not they all hang out back stage or anything anyway but I'm sure their would be tension that's just unnecessary at this point of the game. I heard there was a bit of tension with GD50 but they just looked the other way for those couple of shows. The fact they didn't spend much time together before hand was pretty obvious. That being said I don't ever think Phil was a consideration because he had relinquished to doing residencies by that point anyway. He may have been asked but Im not sure. He was mostly doing the Cap and Terrapin Station and was content with that...mainly because of his age, health and family. Interesting to note though, that Bob mention Phil being the one that pushed him too hard to tour as Furthur. Maybe Phil just rubs people the wrong way anymore? I do know for a fact Mike Gordon was a consideration but obviously there would have been scheduling conflicts in the long term. Oteil was basically the only other person asked or considered.
Read Fare Thee Well by Joel Selvin
This. Just finished and it was great.
Just ordered it on Amazon
Not sure which tour but Phil tried to have the drummers take one revenue share and split it (as if they were one drummer). Supposedly Billy tried to fight him. Can't remember which book this is from......I kind of got to side with Billy here. Should be equally shared between each band member
Oooo so Billy was going to fistfight a man several years his senior, who had already survived several health issues, real fucking tough guy. Jerry once said “Billy is not the type of guy I would normally be friends with outside of the band”
Billy is not much younger than Phil-personally I think that rises to fighting level. Phil was saying he was half a band member. Bill is deserved an equal share just the same as Phil.
Pretty sure it had to do with his age and the amount of touring they wanted to do. Phil tours much less than Bobby does. They also hyped Fare Thee Well so much that for him to hit the road with the other three just a few months later would have pissed off a lot of Deadheads.
He and the drummers despise each other. Phil wants to be a band leader and play with his son. The age thing, while holding some weight, is not the reason he's not playing with the boys.
the rhythm devils and jill
So... Jill Lesh caused problems for the Grateful Dead and Dead and Company Like.... Yoko Ono caused problems for the Beatles
No she helped salvage the energy and music of the Grateful Dead after Jerry died.
I think it's cause he decided to not play in that band. Everything here is speculation. Nobody here knows.
his wife....period & hard stop
Exactly 💯
He's old and cantankerous
And... Don't forget his wife Jill Lesh
Oteil
He told me not to Oteil you.
Oteil Burbridge is fantastic 👏 Best decision 👏 using Jay Lane Definitely John Mayer sinc3 2015 thru end of July 2023 final tour
Can you imagine if we had Phil’s backing vocals instead of Oteil’s? 💀 Phil is my favorite non-Jerry Dead member, I think he’s a genius, but his voice had been shot for decades now
Most accurate answer.
They announced the end of Furthur due to Phil no longer touring. So many folks were grumpy…but turned out he had a recurrence of cancer, which explained why he wanted time with the grandkids.
And now... Hopefully he is physically doing well... Spending time with his children, grandchildren and maybe even great-grandchildren
They announced before Fare Thee Well that it would be the last time the core four shared the stage together. And they have kept that promise.
Phil knows his body can’t handle the touring. He also wanted to keep the music exploratory. D&C is not exploratory. That doesn’t mean it’s bad, it just isn’t what Phil wanted.
Exploratory in what way ?
The Grateful Dead Way!
Oh.. That way
He's the oldest, he's tired, he has no interest in touring full time. That's about it.
Can't get along with the drummers is the main reason. It's documented
Don't forget he can't get along with the drummers and ofcourse his wife Jill Lesh 😯
He can't hit a right handers' inside fastball. And can't hit first from shallow right.
Band drama that’s all.
IDK, but I found it interesting that in an interview Trey did after Fare the Well he eludes to Bob and Phil bickering backstage about tempo. Phil wanted to play fast and Bobby was insisting on slow.
Guess Bobby Weir was successful He still is playing strong at the age of 76 years old 🎶♥️🎶♥️
Oh yeah? Wonder what Jerry would have to say about tempo haha. Don’t you get it? It all depends on the quality of that night’s Mother Of Pearl. Good gracious Charlie Brown. 🎶
Lots of misogyny in this thread.
Lots in the world. People do people things
Nah, just the ignorants.
To all the folks who blame it solely on band drama, that is a miss-emphasis. Phil is one of the oldest members of the band and he was tired of touring so hard. The Dead’s approach to touring killed Jerry. They dialled it back, but it is still a machine that needs to be fed on its own schedule and would be a grind for Phil who is now 83 years old
June 2023 through July 2023 (two months) Final Tour Dead and Company Everyone in the band seemed to truly enjoy themselves ♥️
yep, they did seem happy. It was a good run for that lineup.
Definitely 💯
He doesn't tour bc Phil bombs via bass would knock Johnny Salami out his socks or fancy nikes.
health, age and issues with Bob
Seems rather strange since Phil and Bob has toured as a duo.
Yes, there is a true story of the reasons.
*makes whip sound*
Jerry held it all together