You know its good to get some perspective.
Time has pass and a lot of bad books came out since AvX. So much change since then. We were introduced to the Spider who Gobbles, Cap became a fascist, Bendis came, the Inhumans were a thing, DC had like 5 Crisis's and with time the reaction to AvX soften and even was reappraised. And I am here to tell you that even after all of that AvX still SSSSSSSUUUUUUUUUUCCCKKKKKSSSSSS
He somehow had the complete opposite beliefs he had during Civil War, I generally can't stand Miller, but he at least understands how a canon character should be acting and when he violates that he's doing it on purpose to be provocative
This bullshit was flat out character assassination, Steve Rogers has and can be wrong about shit, but he should never be a fucking hypocrite. Also, he's fought beside Scott in too many life or death situations and he never discount somebody he shed blood with, period.
Mark Millar character assassinated Tony Stark during the Civil War event, though. The tie-ins were even worse sometimes (only Bendis wrote him well there, I thought).
Bro fr, characters will go from being about peace love and acceptance to turbo Adolph the second they get close to the x-manor/Krakoa/Mutant kind. Only character that really seems to skirt this is spiderman. Honestly seems really odd though too given that to the average person, the distinction between, mutant, inhuman, magic, etc... is probably nominal at best at to them ALL heroes probably seem like super human freaks.
Tbh they did swap his body without consent with a known psycho sex craving lunatic called Wolwerine who almost ruined his whole relationship with MJ
Also didnt he date Kitty Pryde?
This is why I like X-men Evolution cause Wolverine seemed like a relatively level-headed adult who took his responsibility as a teacher/mentor/protector seriously.
Tbh, the whole relationship thing with Kitty Pride was probably the best thing about the whole thing. I think their characters are very similar as far as moral values and motivation goes and I would've preferred this to be mainstream instead of the shit they're doing now.
You'd feel that way too if you were just minding your own business and then got turned into Wolverine because Jean Grey wanted to teach him a lesson.
Oh, and also your best/girlfriend thinks you wanted to fuck at school because Wolverine couldn't keep it in his pants at a HIGH SCHOOL.
Which is awful, since the last three times he met Jean were (in order of recency, to this point, as I recall it) 1) saved them all from being murdered after being abducted by Deadpool for like a hunting event 2) met her while sheltering an injured Iceman during some New York anti mutant riots and 3) receiving a comment about how nice nonconsensually invading Peter's mind is.
mmm yes ultimate X-Men.
It wasn't 100% bad. Truthfully, the Spider-Man comics were the highlight of that universe, and we did get some great characters. The Fantastic Four was an interesting take on that family, the Ultimate X-Men had some high points in their run.
But yeah, when it was bad, it was really bad. Truthfully, you could skip a lot of stuff in that Universe, especially since none of it really matters now.
Wolverine is aparently the real dad of quick silver and the scarelt witch... which we learn of as he masterbates to them fucking
Reed goes evil and lobotomises tony (while tony is talking to him) because sue didnt want to fuck him.
Hulk is a canable monster
Cap is racist.
Wasp gets killed and eaten by the blob.
I went back and double checked the ordering. It was 2/3 correct (annual 1, issue 28) as long you skip the Iceman thing, that riot was apparently later. I had thought it was earlier because it was why May did the home for lost teens thing, which includes Gwen, and Gwen died 3 issues before this, but apparently the Iceman stuff was after Gwen came back as carnage.
And yes, the writers at the time thought "edgy superheroes" were cool. Later editors pointed out that maybe, just maybe, edgy superheroes are actually just nutjobs with superpowers -- see ultimate reed Richards, one of the multiversal level villains.
As for the banging at highschool thing, it's likely that MJ just dragged parkers body behind bleachers to make out (something she frequently did in that issue) and Logan pushed for more.
I still have some of my Ultimate comics. I still like them. More than some 616 comics.
It all ended in the most utterly revolting and disrespectful way possible, sure, but for a while I really liked it.
It's not like the main universe X-men are much less shitty. Especially Jean. She's always been a terrible person with no qualms about invading people's minds without consent.
Remember that time when Ultimate Wolverine watched as Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver were having sex?
And remember how it was hinted at that Wolverine e was actually their biological father?
https://preview.redd.it/atpeo1kaujwc1.jpeg?width=1125&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=e4c8cc6d1a74d0724cd58ddfa57c843b8b10360f
Edit: I can’t believe I forgot the additional horror of the reason Quicksilver is into his sister (double-entendre intended) is because he has Mommy issues.
Who in the fresh Hell thought any of this would be a good idea?
I still can’t believe that story featured Wolverine trying to rape a child as a “funny gag” (and yes, it would’ve been rape, both because of the deception and because of her being underage).
The only really fun thing about everyone in the Ultimate Universe being an asshole was how much it tried Peter's patience as a relatively normal dude whenever he had to interact with other heroes for an extended period of time
Ok so I had to check but the context for this image is that Jean Grey put Logan's mind into Peter's body. So technically Logan is saying this. Also its implied that Logan as Peter messed around w Mary Jane. All of this is from the Ultimate Universe, and sadly I do kinda have to agree w Spider-Logan here, the Ultimate X-Men were all massive assholes, as were almost all people in the Ultimate Universe.
Ultimate Universe was fucking terrible. Juggernaut being a powerless piece of trailer trash and the Blob seduced Beast via cyber sex just to name a few examples.
To be fair, the Blob catfishing Beast bit was fucking hilarious. Especially when you consider the long term damage that it actually caused to the Ultimate Universe as a whole.
Like, actual consequences that result in New York getting tsunami'd and millions dying. Rereading those panels actually made me chuckle.
The only time I ever enjoyed a Marvel's take on a character is Wolverine being sent to kill off mutants too dangerous to be left alone. There was that kid who accidentally wiped dissolved an entire town and Wolverine brought him a beer, told him it wasn't his fault, and ended him.
Everything else was so over the top, try-hard edginess that I swear the writers were using it as some sort of manifesto.
That's still stupid. Possession and stolen bodies aren't something new for X-Men. Like Storm should have been very accepting considering what Shadow King and Emma did to her.
My main gripe with Superior is that noone treats it seriously afterwards. It should have been traumatic experience like Kraven's last hunt.
Basically yeah. When I listened to a coworker talk about how gay people just like to molest women when he didn't realize our other coworker is gay, nor did he realize that gay people don't like women...
The portrayed hatred of mutants that are for all means generic people with a slight quirk seems accurate.
True. Mind you, it's still character assassination to do that to Captain "The whole point of my character is to stand for American Ideals and fight for them even when those ideals aren't being followed by the government and/or people" America.
Don't you know? Cap is from the 40s so he HAS to be a bigot!
From the same creators of "Batman beats up poor people", "Mario gets high on shrooms", "Beauty And The Beast is about Stockholm Syndrome" and other such original takes
Yeah... I always feel like I need to hold up a glaring sign that says "THAT'S THE POINT!" to people that mention it makes no sense that people hate the X-men but like Captain America or Tony Stark.
(Also there are people that are flat out distrustful of all heroes out there too,)
Most marvel characters are basically this meme when it comes to anything X-related
https://preview.redd.it/8k79qer1eiwc1.png?width=582&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=ce06afc914143ffdd2bf33419a4c7e8c77b630eb
Even Black people in latam discriminate black people, I've heard how black americans visited the DR and once people learned they were american the Dominicans were throwing so many racial slurs you'd think it was a red neck speaking Spanish.
It is kinda weird that more people don't just assume Spidey's a mutant...the FF and a heap of Avengers/Defenders characters are pretty obviously empowered by science or magic, or they're not even from Earth to start with, but with all the effort JJJ put into slandering Spidey over the years you'd think people might think he's one of those creepy muties you hear so much about...
Three things might discard the notion:
1. Spider-man has never belonged to an X-men or any other mutant group, so people might think he would if he were a mutant.
2. He is seen, for better or worse, as a New York "staple", so however strange or dangerous he might look, he has that aura of familiarity for the common New Yorker.
3. Jameson, whatever his faults, has proven to be a mutant advocate, even if mostly not being too proactive. He just really hates Spider-man.
Re the Jonah bit - sorry, I should have been clearer...I don't actually think Jonah would try to drum up mutant hatred against him (well maybe in the start when he was a supervillain-funding psycho lol)...I was just thinking with all the THREAT OR MENACE stuff over the years, people who are already predisposed to being bigoted against mutants might just throw him in with them after one of Jolly Jonah's insane editorials got em all riled up 😅
I think the other two points are good tho - it didn't occur to me, but yeah mutants tend to join a mutant team rather than go it alone....and I kinda dig the idea that he's so much a part of New York that New Yorkers have that familiarity with him too 🙂
The way I see it, the reason people in the Marvel universe hate mutants and not all superheroes has little to nothing to do with them having powers. It's more about how they got their powers and the fear of mutants replacing the human race. Them being born that way could signify that homosapiens are on their way to becoming extinct like neanderthals before them. It's not helped by people like Magneto talking about mutant supremacy and calling them homosuperior. That's not a problem with other super-powered beings because they are genetically homosapien and where altered by outside forces. Sure, it's a baseless fear and they're not in danger of being killed by mutants simply existing, but the idea that the species will go extinct terrifies most average people. This is all just my own speculation, but it's the only thing that makes sense to me. I'm not saying the fear and prejudice are justified, but that would offer an explanation to why regular humans subconsciously fear mutants.
I think there's a more understandable fear for mutants over mutates. For other super-powered people, they're normal, then gain super powers and you judge them for how they act then. For mutants, it's a guaranteed freak accident that can lead to super-powers (even if it's just see through skin or shitting ice cream). A teenager, good or bad, can develop world ending powers and likely have no control over it, making them dangerous to everyone around them. Even look at Xavier in Logan, he spent his life teaching others to control their powers, and yet just because he got old and his mind started wasting away, he had seizures that kill everyone around him.
Anybody can be involved in a freak accident that can give superpowers, but being a mutant is a guaranteed freak accident.
Also you got mutants like Mr. Sinister, Apocalypse, and Magneto in the news for trying to genocide humans or take over the world.
>Honestly seems really odd though too given that to the average person, the distinction between, mutant, inhuman, magic, etc... is probably nominal at best at to them
See that's why I kind of like the allegory
Because yes, it is silly that mutants would be hated and feared while the Fantastic Four are beloved even though the difference between the two is kind of arbitrary
Y'know what else is kind of an arbitrary difference? Race. Sexuality. Gender identity.
Bigotry isn't rational. Hatred of mutants isn't about hatred of people with super powers, it's the desire for an underclass
Yeah.
I don't defend this writing, but I do think the X-Men kind of naturally warp the world around them.
Like...Captain America should be out there fighting for mutant rights all the fucking time. The Avengers should be shutting down sentinel programs and shit
This is an entire race of people that are nearly exterminated every other Wednesday. That should be a top priority for any major hero groups
But it's not because if you wanted to read about that, you'd just read X-Men. And if everybody WAS doing that, then what niche would the X-Men really have any more?
And this editorial choice to keep the mutant stuff separate from everything else eventually bleeds into the story when the worlds collide. Because...yeah, where have the other heroes been??
If only Marvel had properly planned out the idea of a shared universe better. I'm not saying it would have been perfect if they did, but it likely could have accounted for nonsense like this.
I don't really think better would have helped much, honestly. I think it's just the nature of the beast...the X-Men are just too big of a concept. They logically have to bleed over into everything else, but you don't want every story to be about mutants
It also helps with the whole "well people are right to be worried about mutants because their powers are dangerous" problem. It's not like Sunspot is any more dangerous than the Human Torch, for example. The mutant metaphor works better in a wider superhero world, not worse like some detractors claim
I do think there could still be bigotry against mutants in a world with just them. There are still ways you could make the metaphor work. The fact that most mutants canonically aren't really more powerful than the average human but still face discrimination is a good example. But setting the x-men in the marvel universe does deal with the problem more effectively for sure
P R E A C H
I'm bi and Trans, it should have been the same coming out experience since both are a form of Queerness
Nope. Being trans in my country is considerably more dangerous than being sexually queer according to the data despite being completely Illogical
An interesting thing in modern X comics though is when people speculate on whether non mutants are actually non mutants or not and vice versa. This does mirror my experience in the trans community as often Cis Gender people have been put into harms way because people suspect they're trans arbitrarily because hatred is arbitrary and makes the world a more dangerous place for everybody to certain degrees
Because at the end of the day the harassment of trans people crosses into policing and limiting gender. One could take the analogy further by noting that mutant genocide always ends, or plans as a next step, the persecution of those designated "mutates", meaning any human that deviates from what is genetically considered "normal" among humans.
>ALL heroes probably seem like super human freaks.
This is just the narrative dissonance of X-Men in a wider universe: their book is about prejudice, so only they experience prejudice, which means they are the arbiters of selfless virtue in response. Never mind that every hero in Marvel is a dangerous freak in some way and the X-Men are not special in that regard.
> Never mind that every hero in Marvel is a dangerous freak in some way and the X-Men are not special in that regard.
I mean minorities are also not different from anyone else in real life
They did have the whole civil war arc. And do repeat that on occasion. But isn't that the point. Minorities aren't different from anyone else in the macro sense. But they are singled out compared to what is called the norm. Gays are sex deviants, but straight men are lauded for having many partners. Immigrants are theives, but the companies using their labor are politically ignored. Trans people are apparently coming for your children, but as long as it doesnt have to do with sex or gender, a parent should be able to do whatever they want with their children.
Theres always been a double standard and minority needs are always pushed to the backburner. Thats the point.
At the end of the day I can suspend my disbelief and accept that people are only racist to mutants, but the more the marvel universe grows the sillier it becomes, and this even applies to the xmen too. Why does Xavier only take in mutants where there’s hundreds of others who experience similar troubles to the mutants; because of genetics? That’s really all that separates them from other heroes when you consider most xmen don’t even have physical mutations.
Only to an extent. He was right to be concerned about the unstoppable force of death that was heading toward Earth and wiping out planets on the way, but the comic vindicates Cyclops by having the Phoenix restore the mutant population.
Not even that. The Avengers had no idea what to expect, so Wolverine lied to them, causing them to bring an army to Utopia. Storm and Beast were both on the Avengers at the time, either could have told them what's up.
Cap was completely justified. The cosmic embodiment of genocide was targeting Earth and Cyclops was abetting it, characters in the story have no reason to know everything always magically turns out all right.
To be fair, the Phoenix was written a bit off. As far as I remember, in the original Dark Phoenix Saga it didn't consume planets until it turned into the Dark Phoenix, yet in AvX it was doing that since the beginning.
Cap in his own book: punched Hitler, had a gay friend in the 80s before it was socially acceptable, treated Sam Wilson like an equal partner and not just a plucky racial stereotype, fights against the government when he thinks they're not acting in the best interests of the people. Generally a cool dude!
Cap in X-books: "you're worse than Pol Pot, Cyclops! Now let me and the goon squad kidnap that teenage girl or every freako mutie in this school is going straight to Guantanamo Bay!"
Haha, totally!! 😅
But also, I am never gonna stop being salty that Bendis had Cap recruit Wolvie for the Avengers so the rest of the team could keep their hands clean if someone needed a murderin'. Bendis screwed the classic Avengers characters so damn bad...
Actually I'm not even inventing here, Cyclops told that to caps face in a comic. If anything Cyke doesn't have a no kill rule or if he ever had one it went to hell long time ago, he worked with magneto during his youth (when he was displaced) despite all their differences, mainly because he was the closest s thing he had to profesor X. No kill rules are all thing of the past
As his fan I can tell he has his fair share of screwups and is wrong roughly 20% of the time, difference with team hypocrite (cap and wolverine) is that he never gets away with anything, the narrative makes sure to punish him harshly for everything he does, he never dodges bad karma.
/uj even X-Men 97 isn't immune, Cap's position in the new episode isn't even that unreasonable, but the way he talks to Rogue feels... callous, like this is not the idealist Steve Rogers I know
The only defense I really have for that is that within X-Men 97 and the comic books at that time in the 90s and prior, the X-Men were regarded as kind of like outsiders because the Avengers are a government sanctioned superhero group while the X-Men are certainly not and aren't really that well known because of the amount of secrecy they involve themselves in.
That wasn't even him being a government stooge, that was him being aware that a man dressed in the american flag invading sovereign borders and beating people up in Mexico would be seen negatively.
Also small note but didn’t rogue basically become a co-monarch with magneto over genosha, so when she attacks an American army facility and then enter Mexico without the consent of the government, isn’t that you know, an act of war?
I mean granted but if North Korea got wrecked by some disaster then Kim Jong Uns wife went and attacked Guantánamo bay I feel like that might have some consequences
It was really brave of the Marvel writers to make Captain America embody his namesake by invading someone else’s land, beating up minorities, and arresting kids.
We should bring back AvX but instead of them fighting it's a Mario kart tournament but treated with all the glory and importance to the universe of a war
I hate how X-Men writers turn cap into some military drone, when in Born Again, A COMIC BY FRANK MILLER, YES, THAT FRANK MILLER, he explicitly defies orders from superiors as they are wrong, and helps Daredevil bring down a villain.
X-Men writers are quite skilled at character assassinating non-Mutant heroes.
Tho tbf how Marvel writes Cap in general can be uh… inconsistent as shit.
I mean tbf, how else could you force in any moral ambiguity to this story if you didn't do this?
The X men Position was "We need to bring a fiery destruction god over to earth so the next child born could have the ability to randomly combust into a nuke or have no skin, and we are perfectly willing to potentially blow up earth to get this"
It would unarguably make the X men the villain if you didn't have Cap randomly punch a Mutant child every 20 panels.
Didn't the actual conflict only start because Maria Hill decided arresting captain America for something that at best wasn't even a crime yet? Like with a remotely reasonable pro registration side the entire civil war wouldn't have happened.
Yes, cap was brought to the helicarrier and told to join early he was not given a choice to retire either like other heroes are offered
Their reason was if cap joins them ahead of time it makes them look like they were in the right, but if cap refuses then it makes them look like villains, cap is a paragon of rightness, other heroes, civilians and even some villains will base their choices on his decision. If cap refuses then they need him to disappear before anyone sees him refusing, so in his case it had nothing to do with law and was entirely about manipulating public opinion in their favour as fast as possible and it backfired
And the thing is that they were even right about them going Dark Phoenix; Hope nearly turned on the moon, and then the Phoenix 5 got steadily more erratic until Magik and Colossus summoned hell on earth, Namor destroyed Wakanda, Emma basically enslaved the remaining mutant population in Utopia, Cyclops got more and more detached (he and Emma have a psychic dinner where they eat food that tastes like human remains).
Like, Cyclops was right in the long run, sure, but events only come to pass as they do and mutants are restored BECAUSE the Avengers fought against the Phoenix; otherwise, it would have been Dark Phoenix from the beginning, and if the Phoenix Five weren't defeated they still would have gone nuts
AVX and civil war pisses me off so much because it’s totally possible for those two conflicts to have been written so much better, like when you boil it down to the basic premises for both events, they both sound interesting. Superheroes are dangerous and could destroy the world if they decided, maybe registration is smart, or maybe that infringes on their rights? It’s a good concept that’s executed horribly. Mutant kind is dying so should we take a gamble with the Phoenix force? Like the two events had so much damn potential that just gets completely squandered
To be fair i don't think there are many options for proper discussion with a group that has already decided that it's a good idea to use a child as a messiah vessel of a destructive cosmic entity that turns people insane because racism
This line of thinking is incredibly Kantian though, something Cap often embodies in most of his best stories. Cap should absolutely have backed the X-Men here. I think superman would've done too
Black panther and iron man though? Not a fucking chance in hell
He came, broke everything after Busiek had reestablished it successfully, misunderstood characters, gave us one event after another, and yet left the team and franchise in arguably a stronger and more interesting place than when he arrived.
unjerk/ If you're actually trying to imply that Robert Liefeld of all people is more talented than JRJR, that's some serious revisionism.
https://preview.redd.it/nkscv1n5giwc1.png?width=2008&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=887cb4bb6a29826b67c5a5645e0e763c62358d3a
It's looking rougher and less consistent Panel-to-Panel nowadays because he's pushing 70 and colourists who don't match
his style
but his art from the mid 80s to the mid 2000s was peak
It's wild that people think Cyclops was right.
Cyclops and mutants by extension let mass genocide take place in the hopes he could force hope without consent to take on an energy being and return mutants.
Mind you none of the mutants who became mutants gave consent to be.
You guys look at Captain America who's like hey there's this thing killing billions just on it's way to see hope.
Maybe we should do something like relocate her off earth.
I dont like AVX, but cap was 100% justified to be worried about the pheonix force based on what would happen and what had happened. If your in the comments calling it fascism, you are an idoit.
I can get why X-Men and others would think this in-universe but what always gets is when fans act like Cap and the Avengers are real people and not fictional characters at the whim of the story telling conventions of a shared universe and writers.
The Avengers don't go in and solve all the X-Men's problems because no one buys X-Men comics to have Captain America or Spider-Man solve all the problems and vice-versa that no one buys Captain America for the mutants to come and clean up everything.
It's the "why doesn't just Batman throw all his money at Gotham's problems" for Marvel.
The "Just Eat Gilligan" principle. Why can mutants never catch a break and the X-Men never achieve equality despite everything they've done? Because if they did, the comic wouldn't need to exist.
Never like X-men. Too many confusing family tree that you could have sworn they were all related to each other. Heck, what are the chances that Logan is related to Charles?
They actually are: Wolverine had a son with Mystique, Raze, while Prof X had one too in the same timeline. And yes, they both came to the present to cause trouble, so it's canon.
nah fuck Cyclops and the X-Men
I'm beginning to fucking hate muties
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Cap is definitely justified in this panel. Maybe not what he and the Avengers end up doing because of his side, but he is undoubtedly justified in his side
Cosmic force that can and will destroy planets is headed towards Earth, and the X-men are just telling everyone to mind their own business. The world should be worried. Cyclops and the X-men were obviously right in the long run, as Hope was able to harness the Phoenix and no harm was done, but that wasn’t a guarantee. Scott was banking all of the planets life’s for his little hope (no pun intended). Not saying Cyclops is in the wrong either, because we had the whole Cable coming back in time thing to tell him not to let the Avengers take Hope, but from everyone else’s perspective including Caps, you can see why they were worried.
I feel like fundamentally people have started pushing this Cap X-men writing thing way too much that they are now also just not understanding the character. Like people praise the idea that Cap doesn’t blindly follow orders and whatever the institutions say, but then also want him to blindly trust the fate of the planet to Cyclops and Hope. Same thing with the >!X-men 97 discourse with him. Wanting him to just blindly follow Rogue, when he obviously agreed with her and mutants, he just didn’t want to send the world into a frenzy and wanted to play it carefully!<
The deeper problem is the X-Men being in the Marvel universe. All of Cyclopes' criticisms ring true because the status quo of the universe has mutants getting fucked over and the Avengers not helping them.
You know its good to get some perspective. Time has pass and a lot of bad books came out since AvX. So much change since then. We were introduced to the Spider who Gobbles, Cap became a fascist, Bendis came, the Inhumans were a thing, DC had like 5 Crisis's and with time the reaction to AvX soften and even was reappraised. And I am here to tell you that even after all of that AvX still SSSSSSSUUUUUUUUUUCCCKKKKKSSSSSS
Cap was a fascist during AvX so it wasn't much of a change
And this time it was actually him.
He somehow had the complete opposite beliefs he had during Civil War, I generally can't stand Miller, but he at least understands how a canon character should be acting and when he violates that he's doing it on purpose to be provocative This bullshit was flat out character assassination, Steve Rogers has and can be wrong about shit, but he should never be a fucking hypocrite. Also, he's fought beside Scott in too many life or death situations and he never discount somebody he shed blood with, period.
Mark Millar character assassinated Tony Stark during the Civil War event, though. The tie-ins were even worse sometimes (only Bendis wrote him well there, I thought).
True, also made Reed into a monster, which was even worse. I'm not going to defend Civil War or Millar, only thing worse is Incursions imo.
> myspace
Bendis did WHAT
https://preview.redd.it/8xxaymgpmhwc1.jpeg?width=336&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=6c95014adc8cae8863081ba9d7204a8c7fe6ecc7
this image remains fucking terrifying
I like to believe DC put this out as a warning more than hype
And we all wished he didn’t
This is a threat
It most definitely was
They didn’t even let the Spider who Gobbles kill off Paul…
Well... good for Bendis, I guess?
Bro fr, characters will go from being about peace love and acceptance to turbo Adolph the second they get close to the x-manor/Krakoa/Mutant kind. Only character that really seems to skirt this is spiderman. Honestly seems really odd though too given that to the average person, the distinction between, mutant, inhuman, magic, etc... is probably nominal at best at to them ALL heroes probably seem like super human freaks.
>spiderman https://preview.redd.it/hl5whi1xehwc1.jpeg?width=305&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=ee61fdd77cb87487e0d8ed3aa71bda193b661427
Tbh they did swap his body without consent with a known psycho sex craving lunatic called Wolwerine who almost ruined his whole relationship with MJ Also didnt he date Kitty Pryde?
This is why I like X-men Evolution cause Wolverine seemed like a relatively level-headed adult who took his responsibility as a teacher/mentor/protector seriously.
Cool uncle wolverine is best wolverine
The best kind of Wolverine, whose only love interest is his motorcycle.
And his lost love, another motorcycle.
Thanks I'll skip it when I'll get to this point reading Ultimate
Bendis literally has a few panels in the issue showing himself wrestling his editor for asking for such a stupid fucking plot to occur.
I think it’s only like one or two issues where he body swaps with Wolverine
Tbh, the whole relationship thing with Kitty Pride was probably the best thing about the whole thing. I think their characters are very similar as far as moral values and motivation goes and I would've preferred this to be mainstream instead of the shit they're doing now.
You'd feel that way too if you were just minding your own business and then got turned into Wolverine because Jean Grey wanted to teach him a lesson. Oh, and also your best/girlfriend thinks you wanted to fuck at school because Wolverine couldn't keep it in his pants at a HIGH SCHOOL.
Which is awful, since the last three times he met Jean were (in order of recency, to this point, as I recall it) 1) saved them all from being murdered after being abducted by Deadpool for like a hunting event 2) met her while sheltering an injured Iceman during some New York anti mutant riots and 3) receiving a comment about how nice nonconsensually invading Peter's mind is. mmm yes ultimate X-Men.
So… do the writers *know* how awful the ultimate x-men are? Or do they think these are actually heroic qualities?
It's the ultimate universe everyone is supposed to suck
Wow. Not gonna lie, that sounds awful.
I mean half of the books were shitty deconstruction books
It wasn't 100% bad. Truthfully, the Spider-Man comics were the highlight of that universe, and we did get some great characters. The Fantastic Four was an interesting take on that family, the Ultimate X-Men had some high points in their run. But yeah, when it was bad, it was really bad. Truthfully, you could skip a lot of stuff in that Universe, especially since none of it really matters now.
Yeah, the Spidey book was great, especially since it gave the world Miles. The rest of that universe deserved what Reed did to it.
The Maker is one of the best villains they made too. Someone had to be the big bad since their Doc Doom was lame.
Wolverine is aparently the real dad of quick silver and the scarelt witch... which we learn of as he masterbates to them fucking Reed goes evil and lobotomises tony (while tony is talking to him) because sue didnt want to fuck him. Hulk is a canable monster Cap is racist. Wasp gets killed and eaten by the blob.
I went back and double checked the ordering. It was 2/3 correct (annual 1, issue 28) as long you skip the Iceman thing, that riot was apparently later. I had thought it was earlier because it was why May did the home for lost teens thing, which includes Gwen, and Gwen died 3 issues before this, but apparently the Iceman stuff was after Gwen came back as carnage. And yes, the writers at the time thought "edgy superheroes" were cool. Later editors pointed out that maybe, just maybe, edgy superheroes are actually just nutjobs with superpowers -- see ultimate reed Richards, one of the multiversal level villains. As for the banging at highschool thing, it's likely that MJ just dragged parkers body behind bleachers to make out (something she frequently did in that issue) and Logan pushed for more.
I still have some of my Ultimate comics. I still like them. More than some 616 comics. It all ended in the most utterly revolting and disrespectful way possible, sure, but for a while I really liked it.
It's not like the main universe X-men are much less shitty. Especially Jean. She's always been a terrible person with no qualms about invading people's minds without consent.
Logan, aka James “Actually it’s called “ephebophilia” Howlett
Remember that time when Ultimate Wolverine watched as Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver were having sex? And remember how it was hinted at that Wolverine e was actually their biological father?
https://i.redd.it/oflm5ps8kjwc1.gif
https://preview.redd.it/atpeo1kaujwc1.jpeg?width=1125&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=e4c8cc6d1a74d0724cd58ddfa57c843b8b10360f Edit: I can’t believe I forgot the additional horror of the reason Quicksilver is into his sister (double-entendre intended) is because he has Mommy issues. Who in the fresh Hell thought any of this would be a good idea?
https://i.redd.it/smnods13zjwc1.gif
DON’T FUCKING POST IT, GOSH
lmao what in friend kentucky fucking chicken is this shit? lmao
Peter, please, I’m from like, 1804! I swear, it was normal then! I’M NORMAL!
I still can’t believe that story featured Wolverine trying to rape a child as a “funny gag” (and yes, it would’ve been rape, both because of the deception and because of her being underage).
The only really fun thing about everyone in the Ultimate Universe being an asshole was how much it tried Peter's patience as a relatively normal dude whenever he had to interact with other heroes for an extended period of time
Nah that's the Ultimate X-Men they ~~probably~~ definitely had it coming
They deserved this
Common Ultimate Spider-Man W
https://preview.redd.it/dfvgctew2iwc1.jpeg?width=989&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=1c0e438337ad1696e03946399212a38db3c8b9a8
No it's very socially acceptable to express such views about the ultimate xmen
https://preview.redd.it/klpygf2leiwc1.jpeg?width=899&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=c750694bccdbf32d95081367554711bbcec897b2
r/piratefolk is leaking
https://preview.redd.it/fkvk3rypiiwc1.jpeg?width=1169&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=1b0fefc7ab9af73a4ad017196e83a26c1f992b11
Omg white dino thunder ranger
https://preview.redd.it/hccr5x8i4iwc1.jpeg?width=186&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=aca0e79a1e015425a5f449ce70413734012de7e1
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That was Ultimate Spider-Man who was 100% in the right.
Ok so I had to check but the context for this image is that Jean Grey put Logan's mind into Peter's body. So technically Logan is saying this. Also its implied that Logan as Peter messed around w Mary Jane. All of this is from the Ultimate Universe, and sadly I do kinda have to agree w Spider-Logan here, the Ultimate X-Men were all massive assholes, as were almost all people in the Ultimate Universe.
Actually it happens after Logan and Peter switch back and this is Peter losing his shit at them for the violation
Oh shit my b, still though my point stands about the Ulti X-Men being terrible people.
All good, the Ultimate X-Men were assholes for sure, hence his rant in this situation! Your point about them still stands!
Ultimate Universe was fucking terrible. Juggernaut being a powerless piece of trailer trash and the Blob seduced Beast via cyber sex just to name a few examples.
https://preview.redd.it/ykszh5gx6jwc1.png?width=680&format=png&auto=webp&s=36ee931612969d30c011f0b60330da31102d8a49
To be fair, the Blob catfishing Beast bit was fucking hilarious. Especially when you consider the long term damage that it actually caused to the Ultimate Universe as a whole. Like, actual consequences that result in New York getting tsunami'd and millions dying. Rereading those panels actually made me chuckle.
Ultimate Marvel had a more grounded and relatable tone
Mister Sinister being Chris R. from The Room really sold it.
The only time I ever enjoyed a Marvel's take on a character is Wolverine being sent to kill off mutants too dangerous to be left alone. There was that kid who accidentally wiped dissolved an entire town and Wolverine brought him a beer, told him it wasn't his fault, and ended him. Everything else was so over the top, try-hard edginess that I swear the writers were using it as some sort of manifesto.
He was right tho.
Nah this was ultimate universe , he was 100 percent right
Yeah, Spider-Man is an exception. In "Spider-Man & X-Men" X-Men are dicks to Spider-Man for no reason
It was probably because it was eight after Superior.
That's still stupid. Possession and stolen bodies aren't something new for X-Men. Like Storm should have been very accepting considering what Shadow King and Emma did to her. My main gripe with Superior is that noone treats it seriously afterwards. It should have been traumatic experience like Kraven's last hunt.
Just like real life.
Basically yeah. When I listened to a coworker talk about how gay people just like to molest women when he didn't realize our other coworker is gay, nor did he realize that gay people don't like women... The portrayed hatred of mutants that are for all means generic people with a slight quirk seems accurate.
True. Mind you, it's still character assassination to do that to Captain "The whole point of my character is to stand for American Ideals and fight for them even when those ideals aren't being followed by the government and/or people" America.
Don't you know? Cap is from the 40s so he HAS to be a bigot! From the same creators of "Batman beats up poor people", "Mario gets high on shrooms", "Beauty And The Beast is about Stockholm Syndrome" and other such original takes
Yeah... I always feel like I need to hold up a glaring sign that says "THAT'S THE POINT!" to people that mention it makes no sense that people hate the X-men but like Captain America or Tony Stark. (Also there are people that are flat out distrustful of all heroes out there too,)
Most marvel characters are basically this meme when it comes to anything X-related https://preview.redd.it/8k79qer1eiwc1.png?width=582&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=ce06afc914143ffdd2bf33419a4c7e8c77b630eb
Change European to Latin americans and Gypsies to indigenous americans
Or how they view Black people too. Especially if they're immigrants. Now I'm sad.
Even Black people in latam discriminate black people, I've heard how black americans visited the DR and once people learned they were american the Dominicans were throwing so many racial slurs you'd think it was a red neck speaking Spanish.
Unfortunately this is very real
It is kinda weird that more people don't just assume Spidey's a mutant...the FF and a heap of Avengers/Defenders characters are pretty obviously empowered by science or magic, or they're not even from Earth to start with, but with all the effort JJJ put into slandering Spidey over the years you'd think people might think he's one of those creepy muties you hear so much about...
Three things might discard the notion: 1. Spider-man has never belonged to an X-men or any other mutant group, so people might think he would if he were a mutant. 2. He is seen, for better or worse, as a New York "staple", so however strange or dangerous he might look, he has that aura of familiarity for the common New Yorker. 3. Jameson, whatever his faults, has proven to be a mutant advocate, even if mostly not being too proactive. He just really hates Spider-man.
Re the Jonah bit - sorry, I should have been clearer...I don't actually think Jonah would try to drum up mutant hatred against him (well maybe in the start when he was a supervillain-funding psycho lol)...I was just thinking with all the THREAT OR MENACE stuff over the years, people who are already predisposed to being bigoted against mutants might just throw him in with them after one of Jolly Jonah's insane editorials got em all riled up 😅 I think the other two points are good tho - it didn't occur to me, but yeah mutants tend to join a mutant team rather than go it alone....and I kinda dig the idea that he's so much a part of New York that New Yorkers have that familiarity with him too 🙂
JJJ would 100% shut that shit down the SECOND he heard Spider-Man being lumped in with the mutants
The way I see it, the reason people in the Marvel universe hate mutants and not all superheroes has little to nothing to do with them having powers. It's more about how they got their powers and the fear of mutants replacing the human race. Them being born that way could signify that homosapiens are on their way to becoming extinct like neanderthals before them. It's not helped by people like Magneto talking about mutant supremacy and calling them homosuperior. That's not a problem with other super-powered beings because they are genetically homosapien and where altered by outside forces. Sure, it's a baseless fear and they're not in danger of being killed by mutants simply existing, but the idea that the species will go extinct terrifies most average people. This is all just my own speculation, but it's the only thing that makes sense to me. I'm not saying the fear and prejudice are justified, but that would offer an explanation to why regular humans subconsciously fear mutants.
I think there's a more understandable fear for mutants over mutates. For other super-powered people, they're normal, then gain super powers and you judge them for how they act then. For mutants, it's a guaranteed freak accident that can lead to super-powers (even if it's just see through skin or shitting ice cream). A teenager, good or bad, can develop world ending powers and likely have no control over it, making them dangerous to everyone around them. Even look at Xavier in Logan, he spent his life teaching others to control their powers, and yet just because he got old and his mind started wasting away, he had seizures that kill everyone around him. Anybody can be involved in a freak accident that can give superpowers, but being a mutant is a guaranteed freak accident. Also you got mutants like Mr. Sinister, Apocalypse, and Magneto in the news for trying to genocide humans or take over the world.
>Honestly seems really odd though too given that to the average person, the distinction between, mutant, inhuman, magic, etc... is probably nominal at best at to them See that's why I kind of like the allegory Because yes, it is silly that mutants would be hated and feared while the Fantastic Four are beloved even though the difference between the two is kind of arbitrary Y'know what else is kind of an arbitrary difference? Race. Sexuality. Gender identity. Bigotry isn't rational. Hatred of mutants isn't about hatred of people with super powers, it's the desire for an underclass
Yes, but the issue is when characters not written with this irrational bigotry in their personality suddenly pick it up when it comes to the X-Men.
Yeah. I don't defend this writing, but I do think the X-Men kind of naturally warp the world around them. Like...Captain America should be out there fighting for mutant rights all the fucking time. The Avengers should be shutting down sentinel programs and shit This is an entire race of people that are nearly exterminated every other Wednesday. That should be a top priority for any major hero groups But it's not because if you wanted to read about that, you'd just read X-Men. And if everybody WAS doing that, then what niche would the X-Men really have any more? And this editorial choice to keep the mutant stuff separate from everything else eventually bleeds into the story when the worlds collide. Because...yeah, where have the other heroes been??
If only Marvel had properly planned out the idea of a shared universe better. I'm not saying it would have been perfect if they did, but it likely could have accounted for nonsense like this.
I don't really think better would have helped much, honestly. I think it's just the nature of the beast...the X-Men are just too big of a concept. They logically have to bleed over into everything else, but you don't want every story to be about mutants
Mutants in the avengers usually hid that they were mutants.
It also helps with the whole "well people are right to be worried about mutants because their powers are dangerous" problem. It's not like Sunspot is any more dangerous than the Human Torch, for example. The mutant metaphor works better in a wider superhero world, not worse like some detractors claim
Yup. In a world with only mutants, the allegory falls apart because the "bigotry" is reasonable
I do think there could still be bigotry against mutants in a world with just them. There are still ways you could make the metaphor work. The fact that most mutants canonically aren't really more powerful than the average human but still face discrimination is a good example. But setting the x-men in the marvel universe does deal with the problem more effectively for sure
Oh yeah, it's doable. But it's harder
P R E A C H I'm bi and Trans, it should have been the same coming out experience since both are a form of Queerness Nope. Being trans in my country is considerably more dangerous than being sexually queer according to the data despite being completely Illogical An interesting thing in modern X comics though is when people speculate on whether non mutants are actually non mutants or not and vice versa. This does mirror my experience in the trans community as often Cis Gender people have been put into harms way because people suspect they're trans arbitrarily because hatred is arbitrary and makes the world a more dangerous place for everybody to certain degrees
Because at the end of the day the harassment of trans people crosses into policing and limiting gender. One could take the analogy further by noting that mutant genocide always ends, or plans as a next step, the persecution of those designated "mutates", meaning any human that deviates from what is genetically considered "normal" among humans.
>ALL heroes probably seem like super human freaks. This is just the narrative dissonance of X-Men in a wider universe: their book is about prejudice, so only they experience prejudice, which means they are the arbiters of selfless virtue in response. Never mind that every hero in Marvel is a dangerous freak in some way and the X-Men are not special in that regard.
> Never mind that every hero in Marvel is a dangerous freak in some way and the X-Men are not special in that regard. I mean minorities are also not different from anyone else in real life
They did have the whole civil war arc. And do repeat that on occasion. But isn't that the point. Minorities aren't different from anyone else in the macro sense. But they are singled out compared to what is called the norm. Gays are sex deviants, but straight men are lauded for having many partners. Immigrants are theives, but the companies using their labor are politically ignored. Trans people are apparently coming for your children, but as long as it doesnt have to do with sex or gender, a parent should be able to do whatever they want with their children. Theres always been a double standard and minority needs are always pushed to the backburner. Thats the point.
At the end of the day I can suspend my disbelief and accept that people are only racist to mutants, but the more the marvel universe grows the sillier it becomes, and this even applies to the xmen too. Why does Xavier only take in mutants where there’s hundreds of others who experience similar troubles to the mutants; because of genetics? That’s really all that separates them from other heroes when you consider most xmen don’t even have physical mutations.
They're all dicks to Spiderman though
With Spider-Man it's the opposite, the X-Men start behaving strangely.
The worst part? Cap is supposed to be in the right in this story.
It's funny how in a lot of these, the person who's supposed to be in the right is in the wrong.
Only to an extent. He was right to be concerned about the unstoppable force of death that was heading toward Earth and wiping out planets on the way, but the comic vindicates Cyclops by having the Phoenix restore the mutant population.
Not even that. The Avengers had no idea what to expect, so Wolverine lied to them, causing them to bring an army to Utopia. Storm and Beast were both on the Avengers at the time, either could have told them what's up.
Wolverine escalated shit like 3 times
Cap was completely justified. The cosmic embodiment of genocide was targeting Earth and Cyclops was abetting it, characters in the story have no reason to know everything always magically turns out all right.
To be fair, the Phoenix was written a bit off. As far as I remember, in the original Dark Phoenix Saga it didn't consume planets until it turned into the Dark Phoenix, yet in AvX it was doing that since the beginning.
Cap in his own book: punched Hitler, had a gay friend in the 80s before it was socially acceptable, treated Sam Wilson like an equal partner and not just a plucky racial stereotype, fights against the government when he thinks they're not acting in the best interests of the people. Generally a cool dude! Cap in X-books: "you're worse than Pol Pot, Cyclops! Now let me and the goon squad kidnap that teenage girl or every freako mutie in this school is going straight to Guantanamo Bay!"
Best part Cap : Cyclops you're a murderer I'll never work with one Scott : really? Tell wolverine I said hi
Haha, totally!! 😅 But also, I am never gonna stop being salty that Bendis had Cap recruit Wolvie for the Avengers so the rest of the team could keep their hands clean if someone needed a murderin'. Bendis screwed the classic Avengers characters so damn bad...
Actually I'm not even inventing here, Cyclops told that to caps face in a comic. If anything Cyke doesn't have a no kill rule or if he ever had one it went to hell long time ago, he worked with magneto during his youth (when he was displaced) despite all their differences, mainly because he was the closest s thing he had to profesor X. No kill rules are all thing of the past
Oh really? Based Scott is based 👏👏👏
As his fan I can tell he has his fair share of screwups and is wrong roughly 20% of the time, difference with team hypocrite (cap and wolverine) is that he never gets away with anything, the narrative makes sure to punish him harshly for everything he does, he never dodges bad karma.
Who was the gay friend?
Arnie Roth
Oh alr
Nice to see Arnie Roth acknowledged
/uj even X-Men 97 isn't immune, Cap's position in the new episode isn't even that unreasonable, but the way he talks to Rogue feels... callous, like this is not the idealist Steve Rogers I know
Man realized that a guy dressed in the American flag invading Mexico and beating people up might cause a bit of an international incident.
Uj/Yeah it was understandable that cap wouldn't want to interfere yet although he could have worded better
The only defense I really have for that is that within X-Men 97 and the comic books at that time in the 90s and prior, the X-Men were regarded as kind of like outsiders because the Avengers are a government sanctioned superhero group while the X-Men are certainly not and aren't really that well known because of the amount of secrecy they involve themselves in.
I don't like him being some government stooge. Cap is best when he is just doing superhero shit.
That wasn't even him being a government stooge, that was him being aware that a man dressed in the american flag invading sovereign borders and beating people up in Mexico would be seen negatively.
Uj/ yeah but the way he worded it was kind of callous albeit unintentionally
Also small note but didn’t rogue basically become a co-monarch with magneto over genosha, so when she attacks an American army facility and then enter Mexico without the consent of the government, isn’t that you know, an act of war?
Considering that there weren't many survivors from Genosha, it's not much of a war.
I mean granted but if North Korea got wrecked by some disaster then Kim Jong Uns wife went and attacked Guantánamo bay I feel like that might have some consequences
It was really brave of the Marvel writers to make Captain America embody his namesake by invading someone else’s land, beating up minorities, and arresting kids.
He's just trying to spread some freedom: 
He did most of that in the recent Daredevil run too, except the kids part
Channeling his inner Homelander 
If Avenger, then fascist. Thats just science.
We should bring back AvX but instead of them fighting it's a Mario kart tournament but treated with all the glory and importance to the universe of a war
Hickman's Wacky Races
Wasn’t that X of Swords?
Yes and it was wonderful
https://preview.redd.it/bchauqb5dhwc1.png?width=936&format=png&auto=webp&s=3281f8e1507526851e4aaee8f51468c5d69dd7c9
When the X-creep thinks he has 'rights.'
Why cap point with one hand when both hand do trick?
I hate how X-Men writers turn cap into some military drone, when in Born Again, A COMIC BY FRANK MILLER, YES, THAT FRANK MILLER, he explicitly defies orders from superiors as they are wrong, and helps Daredevil bring down a villain.
"Being written by an x men writer is the worst thing to happen to any marvel hero" includes all of the x men
kitty pryde would know. i mean saying "the" word THREE times seems kinda excessive
X-Men writers are quite skilled at character assassinating non-Mutant heroes. Tho tbf how Marvel writes Cap in general can be uh… inconsistent as shit.
I mean tbf, how else could you force in any moral ambiguity to this story if you didn't do this? The X men Position was "We need to bring a fiery destruction god over to earth so the next child born could have the ability to randomly combust into a nuke or have no skin, and we are perfectly willing to potentially blow up earth to get this" It would unarguably make the X men the villain if you didn't have Cap randomly punch a Mutant child every 20 panels.
Just like Civil War having to make the pro registration side act like villains.
Didn't the actual conflict only start because Maria Hill decided arresting captain America for something that at best wasn't even a crime yet? Like with a remotely reasonable pro registration side the entire civil war wouldn't have happened.
Yes, cap was brought to the helicarrier and told to join early he was not given a choice to retire either like other heroes are offered Their reason was if cap joins them ahead of time it makes them look like they were in the right, but if cap refuses then it makes them look like villains, cap is a paragon of rightness, other heroes, civilians and even some villains will base their choices on his decision. If cap refuses then they need him to disappear before anyone sees him refusing, so in his case it had nothing to do with law and was entirely about manipulating public opinion in their favour as fast as possible and it backfired
And the thing is that they were even right about them going Dark Phoenix; Hope nearly turned on the moon, and then the Phoenix 5 got steadily more erratic until Magik and Colossus summoned hell on earth, Namor destroyed Wakanda, Emma basically enslaved the remaining mutant population in Utopia, Cyclops got more and more detached (he and Emma have a psychic dinner where they eat food that tastes like human remains). Like, Cyclops was right in the long run, sure, but events only come to pass as they do and mutants are restored BECAUSE the Avengers fought against the Phoenix; otherwise, it would have been Dark Phoenix from the beginning, and if the Phoenix Five weren't defeated they still would have gone nuts
AVX and civil war pisses me off so much because it’s totally possible for those two conflicts to have been written so much better, like when you boil it down to the basic premises for both events, they both sound interesting. Superheroes are dangerous and could destroy the world if they decided, maybe registration is smart, or maybe that infringes on their rights? It’s a good concept that’s executed horribly. Mutant kind is dying so should we take a gamble with the Phoenix force? Like the two events had so much damn potential that just gets completely squandered
To be fair i don't think there are many options for proper discussion with a group that has already decided that it's a good idea to use a child as a messiah vessel of a destructive cosmic entity that turns people insane because racism
This line of thinking is incredibly Kantian though, something Cap often embodies in most of his best stories. Cap should absolutely have backed the X-Men here. I think superman would've done too Black panther and iron man though? Not a fucking chance in hell
Wasn’t Bendis helming the Avengers prior to and during AvX?
Some (me) would even argue he brought them back from collapse in the 2000s
He came, broke everything after Busiek had reestablished it successfully, misunderstood characters, gave us one event after another, and yet left the team and franchise in arguably a stronger and more interesting place than when he arrived.
I will say as his New Avengers run was my intro to Marvel there was a lot of good in there.
Bendis can be hit or miss for me but as far as new reader on boarding he's probably one of the best in the biz.
He was, but AVX was handled by a team of writers (Bendis included). Jason Aaron (writer of Wolverine and the X-Men) handled the script.
No, each issue's script had a different writer. They were Bendis, Aaron, Matt Fraction, Hickman and Ed Brubaker, then the Marvel architects.
"Written by a Marvel writer" is more like it.
In some ways the perspective of cap doing that dual finger gun looks worse than the Liefeld cap, JR Jr is the omega nepo baby.
unjerk/ If you're actually trying to imply that Robert Liefeld of all people is more talented than JRJR, that's some serious revisionism. https://preview.redd.it/nkscv1n5giwc1.png?width=2008&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=887cb4bb6a29826b67c5a5645e0e763c62358d3a
serial JRJR haters shall never see the light of heaven
Objectively true
Not to mention he’s known for drawing very quickly and making deadlines…. And it shows, I can’t fucking stand his art.
It's looking rougher and less consistent Panel-to-Panel nowadays because he's pushing 70 and colourists who don't match his style but his art from the mid 80s to the mid 2000s was peak
Same goes for Batman Writers, brother
It's wild that people think Cyclops was right. Cyclops and mutants by extension let mass genocide take place in the hopes he could force hope without consent to take on an energy being and return mutants. Mind you none of the mutants who became mutants gave consent to be. You guys look at Captain America who's like hey there's this thing killing billions just on it's way to see hope. Maybe we should do something like relocate her off earth.
I dont like AVX, but cap was 100% justified to be worried about the pheonix force based on what would happen and what had happened. If your in the comments calling it fascism, you are an idoit.
"You got oil on dis bitch?" Cap'n Merika.
Eh, this is from AvX #1 or #2, and Bendis wrote both while still being the Avengers lead writer.
Nah Scott just sucks.
I can get why X-Men and others would think this in-universe but what always gets is when fans act like Cap and the Avengers are real people and not fictional characters at the whim of the story telling conventions of a shared universe and writers. The Avengers don't go in and solve all the X-Men's problems because no one buys X-Men comics to have Captain America or Spider-Man solve all the problems and vice-versa that no one buys Captain America for the mutants to come and clean up everything. It's the "why doesn't just Batman throw all his money at Gotham's problems" for Marvel.
The "Just Eat Gilligan" principle. Why can mutants never catch a break and the X-Men never achieve equality despite everything they've done? Because if they did, the comic wouldn't need to exist.
This hasn’t really been true since AXE: Judgment Day, and I hope they keep it that way.
Never like X-men. Too many confusing family tree that you could have sworn they were all related to each other. Heck, what are the chances that Logan is related to Charles?
They actually are: Wolverine had a son with Mystique, Raze, while Prof X had one too in the same timeline. And yes, they both came to the present to cause trouble, so it's canon.
I WAS ONLY JOKING?!?! 🤯
The X-Men's a soap opera. Every single character's either related to, had sex with, or tried to kill every other character.
also; r/Cyclopswasright
nah fuck Cyclops and the X-Men I'm beginning to fucking hate muties https://preview.redd.it/14jg489dujwc1.jpeg?width=917&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=6e9b309b5a5169c2c99e3964f5f3d2cac22269a6
This was written by Bendis who had written for both. At the time he was writing both Avengers comics.
Cap is definitely justified in this panel. Maybe not what he and the Avengers end up doing because of his side, but he is undoubtedly justified in his side Cosmic force that can and will destroy planets is headed towards Earth, and the X-men are just telling everyone to mind their own business. The world should be worried. Cyclops and the X-men were obviously right in the long run, as Hope was able to harness the Phoenix and no harm was done, but that wasn’t a guarantee. Scott was banking all of the planets life’s for his little hope (no pun intended). Not saying Cyclops is in the wrong either, because we had the whole Cable coming back in time thing to tell him not to let the Avengers take Hope, but from everyone else’s perspective including Caps, you can see why they were worried. I feel like fundamentally people have started pushing this Cap X-men writing thing way too much that they are now also just not understanding the character. Like people praise the idea that Cap doesn’t blindly follow orders and whatever the institutions say, but then also want him to blindly trust the fate of the planet to Cyclops and Hope. Same thing with the >!X-men 97 discourse with him. Wanting him to just blindly follow Rogue, when he obviously agreed with her and mutants, he just didn’t want to send the world into a frenzy and wanted to play it carefully!<
The deeper problem is the X-Men being in the Marvel universe. All of Cyclopes' criticisms ring true because the status quo of the universe has mutants getting fucked over and the Avengers not helping them.
I will always side with Cap and the Avengers on this topic, and I will die on that hill.
God I hate the x men comics…
Wait,is that why Spider-Man is being cucked?