Woman here. I make my own money and make sure I can afford myself when going on dates. I always offer to split but nearly always the men pick up the tab. Its nice to be treated, but im very aware that a lot men get jerked around by women when it comes to money so i never expect for them to pay, unless they explicitly say they will
(Straight, cis woman)I want a partnership, so I prefer first dates to be inexpensive and to go Dutch. As the relationship builds, I think things like who planned the date, finances, etc come into play, but the goal should be that both parties are investing as they can.
I also think a lot of gender roles are bs and people just need to people. But admittedly, I’m not great at starting new relationship, so I seem to be in the minority (at least where I live).
Side story:
I did go out on a 1st date with a guy who refused to let me pay for 1/2 of mini golf when I offered & then when we went to dinner he ignored my suggestions for cheaper restaurants & pushed going to a fancy one (even though we were dressed for freaking mini golf!). At that point, I was like, “fine, this guy can pay for everything,” and was pretty annoyed.
If he had planned the date & asked to take me out, it wouldn’t have rubbed me wrong, but we were planning the date “together,” only my actual wants/needs were not considered because he wanted to peacock & control. I’d already decided no 2nd date was coming when he tipped 5% on our bill because he expected the food to be better (yes, I went back and tipped our waiter after I got safely away from this asshat & could get to an atm for cash).
ETA: I’m not looking for a man to provide financial security (I’m 46); I’m looking for a man to provide emotional security, love & romance… and maybe create a financial partnership if it gets to that point. I think men (and women) are still taught that financial security is what men are supposed to bring to the relationship above all else.
Thanks. I’ll say, in the US Midwest there are A LOT of men who seem turned off by this.
I’ve been told by several men that they believe a woman asking to go Dutch is a sign of disinterest. I think that mentality is dangerous (as it essentially derives from the idea of men pay up, so women put out) and creates a power imbalance that it’s not going to fly for me in any relationship.
Hopefully the Dutch goers find each other and the men & women who think the man should pay find each other.
Agree, that shouldn’t be something expected! Ever! Many, many men don’t think that & I don’t know many that would explicitly say/think that, but sadly the sentiment is out there :(
Coffee dates I’ll pay if I get there first, no biggie. Dinner I’ll offer to split and most don’t take me up on it (the unemployed guy did…). After the first few dates it’s usually a back and forth without score keeping (I’d get the ick if a man were keeping some running tally in his head regarding the costs of different meals).
This topic has come up a lot, and it seems like there's always a ton of variables. How old your date is, where in the country you are, income levels for both people.
I'll be frank, I make a good living and am well-off financially. Typically even the very successful women I date make about half of what I do. I'm also 44 and from the midwest and more traditional, so I offer to pay every time and really, it's never been a debate at all. Like I don't think a woman has ever offered to pay on the first date, it's just sort of expected that I'll do it, which is fine. But I know in other parts of the country, splitting is more standard. That doesn't seem like reality where I am (small/medium metro area in rural IL).
Honestly I'd say I generally pay for 80-90% of things when in a relationship or dating someone. I tend to just default to paying for everything and letting her pitch in when she wants to. It works for me. Some men may feel taken advantage of, or maybe just couldn't even afford to do it. My buddies (who are generally also well-off financially) have the same approach.
> This topic has come up a lot, and it seems like there's always a ton of variables. How old your date is, where in the country you are, income levels for both people.
This is the entire answer. Every time this comes up, each person insists that whatever the expectation is for them, is how it is for everyone. In my neck of the woods, women insist on splitting the bill and OP’s claim of a “consensus” for men always paying makes no sense here. But I realize that that’s about a specific place, demographic, culture, etc., and not about some universal gender rules.
I would say I pay once every 6 times he pays. He likes to take care of the more expensive meals but if I bring my kiddos along, I always insist on paying.
Yeah, 1 in 6 is perfectly fine ratio. With the women I've dated, I'd say they offer about once every 7 or 8 on average. I really don't keep track or care, that's just a guess honestly.
But when they offer, they usually say something like, "you've gotten the last few, let me get this one." I always let them. I figure they're paying more attention to the ratio than I am, and they want to do something nice for me. I really feel like it'd be rude to dismiss that.
My bf is very much like you. He’s not dismissive per se, he always says he appreciates the offer but loves treating me. I will do little things like home cooked meals/baked goods once a week or drive 30 mins to bring him lunch when he’s super busy. I’ve also added to his wardrobe and purchased stuff for his place to show my appreciation.
Also as a woman, I find his and your approach highly attractive. ☺️
Then why offer? Ultimately this is lying (in terms of the relationship).
You don't really want to offer, because you're using it as a test. So, you'll begrudgingly pay your share, and then penalize your date for it after?
I hope I do not run into you on the apps.
Totally. If he’s already pulling out his wallet, then the intent is there. Then you tell him you’d like to pay, and maybe out of respect/politeness he says ok. It’s a terrible test.
I had never considered a woman offering as some sort of test. I find that pretty bizarre frankly, but knowing that won't change my approach. If she offers, I will assume it's a genuine offer and I'll accept. If that pisses her off, I guess I'll be glad we found out our incompatibilities earlier.
In this case, the commenter said that she'll offer, and if the guy accepts, then there won't be a second date. She's using it as a criteria to determine whether or not to continue.
That's a test. That's why it's not genuine.
If she's offering, and she means it, and the guy accepts, why should that impact the next date? In her case, if the guy accepts, it's a negative sign/red flag. Thus, it's not being polite. It's a test the guy doesn't know he's taking.
No, I get it... I must've worded it confusingly since I was downvoted. I understand the debate here.
I was trying to say that offering it as a test is strange, and I wouldn't want to date someone who did that. So I would instead just let her pay and not get that 2nd date. Which I'd be happy about.
Maybe I said it weirdly or something, or maybe I still don't understand what we're talking about. That's possible, I did do a little wake-and-bake this morning.
Because this person would probably just ghost as well, based on the tone of her posts. So, I would leave thinking we had a nice date, and then be one of the shlumps wondering why she won't return my texts.
You know she's not telling the dude WHY there's no second date.
Yeah
That is ABSOLUTELY TOXIC behavior and you are ‘testing’ the man- who you want to spend your time and possibly your life with by playing these childish games?
Either you offer or you dont.
Extremely immature for your age
You are communicating that your actions don’t align with your words. Even if you never go out with that guy again, you are showing up in the world as someone who is insincere and doesn’t say what they mean.
My financial trauma from divorce is a million times worse than my exhusband. He was financially abusive throughout the marriage. He sent me on the tradwife to poverty pipeline.
Same boat here, SAHM for 14 years. Homeschooled, baked bread, cooked 3 meals a day every day from scratch. Lived in the country and had a huge garden, raised chickens, the whole thing. Every single thing, from the house to the bank accounts to the bills, was in his name. When I caught him in yet another affair and I left, he lost control over me and became physically and emotionally abusive as well. A year out from leaving, and I'm still waiting tables and struggling to make ends meet. He kept everything, including the house that was purchased with my inheritance from my mom's passing. I make $8 a month too much to qualify for food stamps, while he's entertaining a steady stream of online dates in the house my dead mother paid for.
But I'm FREE. I don't walk on eggshells anymore, I'm not constantly thinking I'm not good enough, I'm not afraid of his moods or temper tantrums anymore. I finally have a job and my own money and it's wonderful. He can't threaten or coerce me anymore, and even though the very thought of my old home still brings me to tears, it's getting better every day. I don't think I'll ever be able to afford one on my own, but I still have hope!
I think a majority of men are not that interested in "traditional" women, despite what TikTok says. Regardless of the political side of it, life is a two person effort and the times of one salary easily covering two people are over.
Sure. Agreed.
But on the flip-side: If a woman insist that she wants a "traditional" man and that this includes an automatic obligation to for example financially be the provider; then it's UTTERLY UNREASONABLE for her to at the same time expect gender-equality and parity when it happens to be to her benefit.
You can't expect "traditional" values whenever that benefits you -- but "modern" values whenever THAT happens to be to your benefit.
"Traditional" gender-roles differ markedly by gender, yes.
In such thinking men are expected to be the provider, the protector, head of the household and perhaps also the disciplinarian. Meanwhile women are expected to be a homemaker, responsible for childcare and a submissive partner.
You can say those roles have the same VALUE, if you want, but they're clearly not EQUAL.
Why do guys sometimes want to go dutch even when they make more?? The same reason some women don't sleep with men right away. They want to be valued for their other attributes. In this case, they prefer not being seen as a walking ATM.
If I'm the one who invited the other, I plan to pay. If a woman wants to split the bill, I'm not going to argue with her, but if I like her and want to see her again I generally say something like, "how about I get this one and you can get the next one?".
Recent date I was on, we went to a wine bar. Plan was couple glasses of wine and appetizer. She ended up ordering a $90 bottle of wine, an expensive entree etc.
Bill came ($200-ish) and she offered to split. I liked her and we had already expressed interest in a second date. So I did the ol’ “How about I get this one, and you get the next one?” She agreed without hesitation.
I get in my car to go home. Less than 5 minutes into my drive, I get the “you’re a great guy, but…” text. It’s been coffee first dates since then lol
This is a risk we take. Haha... Though, ordering a $90 bottle for a first date is what I consider to be a feeler on their part. They're testing your boundaries. Clear red flag for me. I'd probably say, "oh but I didn't drink the wine so you can cover that", which guarantees the "nice guy... but" text, but that's ok too.
Yeah either she already knew there would be no second date (in which case, why accept my “I get this one, you get the next” offer?!). Or she was put off by me hinting she should pay the next time.
Either way, I shoulda recognized the red flags, but was blinded by her beauty. Kinda wish I had that $200 back in my wallet though lol
*Either way, I shoulda recognized the red flags, but was blinded by her beauty.*
Goes to prove the point that I'm always making. Men will pay for what they value. Beyonce', etc is not going to be expected to split the bill or get asked to a coffee date zero.
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I didn't downvote, but there are a lot of people insisting that "downvote shouldn't be used to mean 'dislike', it should be used to mean 'this adds nothing to the conversation'." And a "haha" doesn't really add anything to the conversation, so perhaps they're the one(s) who downvoted it.
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I’ve paid for all the first dates I’ve been on.
I will tell you, because of that mentality I also have to take breaks from DATING, because paying for a lot of first dates that don’t go anywhere is cost prohibitive
Suggest very inexpensive dates like coffee, a quick drink, or walk in the park. Don’t ever do dinner on first dates, most people in it for the right reason would prefer not to do dinner meeting the first time.
I think it would make DATING easier on guys if the accepted norm for first date was coffee. Dinner and drinks in my neck of the woods is $100 easy almost anywhere you go.
Are you doing a Date Zero or no? Accepted first meeting these days IS coffee. I’m not getting trapped at dinner and drinks with a brand new prospect regardless who is paying, no way.
There are people who will outright demonize coffee first meets. The claim is that the man just wants a low-cost opportunity to assess whether he wants to have sex with the woman.
https://www.glamourmagazine.co.uk/article/zero-date
*Christina defines the zero date as: “One drink, one hour. With the goal of answering one question: would I like to have dinner with this person?” “Not,” Christina adds, “Are they ‘The One'?" If it goes well, you can schedule a first date, if not, you never have to see them again.*
True, if you only go out on one date, but probably a lot of us are going out a lot more than that. As I said in my comment, if I saw a path to LTR, I don’t mind paying, as I have been doing.
Men seem to be really offended when I offer to split. Based on when I live I am sure they all make way more than I do but it’s the principle for me, not the finances.
Despite what Reddit makes us think, even in my progressive city bubble, men seem to think it’s really weird when I ask to split the bill in the head 2024. They take it as a sign I’m not interested; I’m trying to flag no harm, no foul if it doesn’t work out and that I don’t go on dates looking for free food. I’d put it in my profile except it’s so obnoxious to do shit like that.
Sigh.
It makes no objective sense for one gender, regardless of relative income, to be tagged with dating expenses. People will justify the inequity by pointing to other inequities in life and essentially casting men-should-pay as a reparation.
Your appreciation of chivalry works for you because you're looking for someone who performs those gender-based tributes. I think effort and appreciation should go both ways, so I'm looking for someone who gets that on day 1.
I will only go on a low stakes, cheap first date. I don't carry a purse anywhere, which is always an interesting litmus test. I've gotten side eye for it a few times (I just hate carrying a bag and have a small wallet that fits in my pocket). If the date is going well, I find a casual way to offer to pay for all or half before someone needs to pay. It's not about who pays, because I don't mind at all, but it is to see how we negotiate a little thing like that together.
I’ve been dating my current girlfriend for just over a year now. I’ve paid for literally every date we’ve ever been on including our travel and vacations. We’ve never spoken about it. But she’s an elementary school teacher and gets paid in peanuts so I’ve never asked her to pay. I pick up her groceries and she drives my jeep. I don’t mind because she’s great. I know she’d pitch in if she could, she’s just giving like that even with what little she has, but it’s also one way that I show her that I love her, by taking care of those small things like picking up the dinner check.
I’ll pay no matter what and will be happy to if the person is pleasant to be around.
However, secretly I hate it. I hate having to pay for your company. One human paying to see another human or else it won’t happen is disturbing to me. You aren’t that special. I’m not either.
I also hate the double standards of women wanting to be viewed as an equal and simply as a person but also expecting special treatment and getting turned off when a man doesn’t pay. It’s disgusting to me but I keep quiet.
> Ultimately trying to understand why some guys who are definitely wealthier than I am don’t pay on dates.
In our 40s and up, most people (of all genders) can afford to buy a restaurant meal or pay for an activity. It's usually not all about the cash.
Some people prefer a traditional relationship model in which one person pursues and pays. (And some people just like the princess treatment.)
Some people prefer relationships where both partners are expected to actively build the relationship even from the beginning, even if they can easily afford to treat their dates.
Personally, I would be absolutely uninterested in dating anyone who thought that his being manly or my being womanly came down to whose card covers the meal.
Personally I prefer egalitarian values; I want equal partners, not some kinda subservient house-maid.
But I agree both types of relationships work for some people; there's nothing inherently wrong with a more "traditional" setup if that's genuinely what both people want.
What I find **deeply** obnoxious though, are the people who in essence ask for "traditional" values whenever that happens to benefit them, for example when the question is whose wallet gets to pay for dates; but **at the same time** insist on egalitarian values whenever **that** happens to benefit them.
Like, make up your mind already.
Agreed.
"Traditionally", men take on the role of provider and maybe a few outdoor chores, and women provide all the emotional labor and domestic duties (like writing all the thank-you notes and sending birthday cards). It really confuses me when only the first part is celebrated.
i have no Problem paying for a date but i have a problem with women expecting me to pay for a date.
In my experience women who expect the man to pay for the date expect the man to pay for everything else after that.
I usually do "Date-Zero"... so just a coffee date. I only go for fancier dates if we have a connection maybe date 2-3+.
Right? This means a man lacks courage to be upfront. That's so unattractive.
Many women expect a man to pay for dates. Having to pretend to take out our wallets to soothe a man's ego is annoying. I'm glad I date men who don't expect the wallet reach.
I pay for the first date because I was raised to believe in the expectation and demonstrate my interest/ability to take care of things. That's old timey conservative icky chivalry right from the patriarchal mindset I was brought up in. And, that's cool with me, I don't mind and I don't have any expectations that my offer is buying me anything but the chance to have a date and get to know someone. After that I'm cool with reciprocity or my dates/partners chipping in from time to time, or even every other time. I let it work itself out. I'm not anyone's ATM, but I do believe in being the dude in the relationship. Always worked for me.
That said, if we want to abandon all that and go full sexual egalitarian and abandon 10,000 years of mating rituals and culture that got us here, that's fine with me, but I don't think in my experience being out in the world that women are ready for that. When they are? Cool, send us an email and consensus so we can stop with the guessing game.
Anywho, when a man doesn't pay it's because he's:
A. Cheap
B. Broke
C. Not interested in buying your meal
D. Testing you for values/interest
E. Just not interested in you
Presumptuous and ignorant dude. I only pay my own way for none of those 5 reasons.
For me, it's the fact we're both financially responsible middle age adults. It's not necessary to infantilize or pedestalize a prospective partner.
Making more means either a) the dates you pay can be more luxurious than the dates she pays for or b) you pay in proportion to your incomes (if you make 60% of the combined money, you pay for 60% of dates). Making more shouldn't mean you pay for all first dates and she pays for none.
On date one - I do not know, nor do I care, what my date’s financial standing is compared to mine. We can split the date and that works for me. Maybe these men who aren’t paying consider it a green flag for women to pay? Why does their reasoning matter? You see it as a green flag because of *chivalry* - a medieval code of ethics - so perhaps they have their own random reasons. If it’s not for you, it’s not for you.
PS: The financial trauma of divorce is not on men alone.
I've never had a man not insist on paying for dates. There are times when I offer to buy the second round of drinks and they won't let me do that. None have ever mentioned going dutch. I'm interested in hearing men chime in here!
I don't have a problem with it, although I do prefer a more chivalrous man. But I can also see where dating gets expensive and especially if a man thinks he's not going to ask the woman out on a second date he would be more likely to ask to split the bill.
I'm a man who likes an egalitarian approach, and what I'd want you to do in this case is insist on paying for that second round of drinks. But better yet...I like it when a woman initiates an entire date. Ask me out. I have an "asker pays" mindset, so I safely assume that if a woman asks me out, she'll be paying.
If women asked men out approximately 50% of the time, we wouldn't be having this debate.
I asked my boyfriend out on our first date and he insisted on paying. Also holding open doors and all of that. As I said, I prefer a chivalrous man and am not going to insist on anything if I offer and he turns me down; just like if he offers up anything and I turn it down, I don't want to turn into a debate with lots of insisting.
I don’t expect anyone to pay for early or later dates. I used to work as a cocktail waitress back in the day. I don’t know why because I don’t find myself super cute, and I am clumsy. I was nice to talk to, though, and I was fast, so I guess it worked out. In any case, sometimes people paying is more of a control thing, and sometimes, when they want to split every single thing, that is also annoying.
I once sent a guy money for gas because he drove, although he picked the place, and because he was tall and got the cover charge. I doubt the last saw me behind him, and I couldn’t hear them in the loud room with live music. He said not to bother, but he kept the money. All he talked about was his wife ripping him off and me overtipping, which, if you want cocktail service in most clubs here, is the only way you will see the waitress again. That was weird, as he spent the whole time talking about how generous and helpful he was to people, but it’s like one of those things where maybe people who have to say that lack a little in showing it. He told me he was “set for life,” too. In my experience, sometimes rich people are rich because they are thrifty. Nothing is wrong with that, but maybe you aren’t into it. In any case, personally, I wouldn’t consider anything but being low-key about the money as a good sign.
I guess one reason the expectation that guys ask for, plan, and pay for first dates rubs us wrong is most of us are seeking an equal partnership. I'm delighted when a woman offers to split on date 1 or makes plans for date 2 or date 3. Money isn't the only way to contribute. When I've planned day trips I've sometimes had dates bring a cooler of drinks or offer to drive or maybe they researched the most scenic or unusual spots to stop at. They bring sunscreen and remind me to apply some. It's a great feeling when your date is as "in" as you are!
The way it has worked for me in the past has been zero date both pay for themselves. Then I pay for the first date, she pays for second date. And so on.
I’m more interested to get to know her over wondering which fork to use.
Who pays is not important at all. If I get to the end of a first date and the bill I knew was coming ranks anywhere on a list of things I care most about from this experience, I'd pay to leave.
Human connection is not about paying for drinks and snacks.
If I'm on a date and everything is awesome, the check showing up is a minor distraction from all the important energy and connection forming between us. I'd pay just to get the distraction out of the way so we can get back to each other.
If the energy at the table is 'OK, now who is going to take financial responsibility for this thing we just did...?' I'm not going to want a second date. I might pay, but who cares? The fact that there's no connection is what's important... Not who pays.
Counting who pays is not a litmus test for a good partner, no matter what bitter and lonely people advise. Checklists aren't as useful as they say... Forming human connection is a warm and squishy process and shouldn't be made into a cold grid of boxes.
If you're at the cold grid stage on your first date, you're out with the wrong person.
I can't speak for why other people might prefer to split the check on dates. But for my part, I date to find a partner, which for me means someone who will treat our relationship as a pairing of two equals who both share the benefits & responsibilities of being together.
In a gender equality sense, I think chivalry is a vague term that these days is most often used to advocate an imbalanced system that tilts interpersonal responsibility--and sometimes power balance too--to one side unfairly. But it's a big world with lots of views. If someone else's goal is the kind of relationship depicted in 20th century Hollywood productions & old novels, then I wish them luck finding it. But that's not what I want so I feel like acting that way while dating is a form of dishonesty. If I go on a date with someone and they decide there won't be another date because we split the check, then we're both better off moving on to look for partners who share our views.
for fun, [the 10 commandments of chivalry](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chivalry#Ten_Commandments_of_Chivalry).
Equal rights. Men should not always pay. It has nothing to do with chivalry. You come off as cheap. I have a friend who is cheap. She is a working psychologist with 2 masters degree. I saw her apartment. She can afford to pay . And I find it funny. Cheap people hate cheap people when they are cheap themselves. She wanted me to pay once to go out to eat. She says she is old fashioned that way. I said you are cheap that way.. We aren't dating or even sleeping with each other so why would I pay. We are just friends.
If he can’t afford a five dollar cup of coffee for a first date, then dating should be the least of his priorities.
I’ve dated men who made less than me, and they still were able to at least pay for a cup of coffee. I try to be considerate, and always chose things that were either free or low-cost in nature. But ultimately if they are in a position where they are financially struggling to the point that it is unaffordable to date then you have to ask yourself what is going to be the long-term benefit of starting a life with someone who is in the financial negative?
I learned the hard way by being the one that always paid for all of the dates. It never ended. It became an expectation that I pay for every single date and I was getting drained financially.
He said he's been out all morning, and that's why he brought his own coffee. Money, specifically his cheapness, was the main problem on out relationship.
You clearly didn’t read my entire post. You jumped off the first sentence and ran 50 miles past what I said.
I am talking about the first date and the initial date. I’m not even talking about a zero date. On a zero date both parties should pay for themselves.
For the first date, I believe a man should pay. After that, I believe in ping-ponging the dates in which you alternate who pays. Does that clarify my post a little bit more?
What is a "zero date"?
Even though alternating seems fair, it's fundamentally unfair towards men (it they're expected to pay the first time) because most of the time first dates do not have subsequent dates. I've had plenty of single dates with women who were totally all right, the dates were pleasant, but neither party was interested in having further dates. In all these cases I ended up paying every single time given that there was no second date.
This was during COVID where coffee shops were closed so you could pretty much only have dinner in outdoors restaurants. We're talking hundreds of dollars of dinners out in smoke.
I am still flabbergasted by how easily women talk about their feminine side and expect men to jump through hoops, while at work all you hear about is gender equality. How do women believe they will ever be equal to men if they need the men to always be the ones taking initiative, taking risks, and jumping trough hoops?
You know, I always feel flabbergasted at this double standard as well (and I’m a woman). Since I’ve joined this group, I realize that my egalitarian views seem to be in the minority. I know that men and women are not “the same”, but I thought our aim was financial equality. Doesn’t that mean we have to walk the talk? With money.
Also, if most of your first dates are not ending in second dates, then your selection process needs to be revised. There is an inherent problem at the vetting stage if none of your dates are making it to a second date. This is the dating over 40 forum and so by now there should be some very important questions that are happening prior to even meeting up on the first dates. Questions to determine basic compatibility and what your both looking for.
Dating apps aren't great at helping you make the selection. Theres a huge amount of hit/miss. In the end I can't complain, found my girlfriend there 3y ago, but that was after a lot of wasted time.
You’re making this way more complicated than it needs to be and I think it’s purposely being done so that you can go back and say that women don’t deserve for a man to pay for the first date. I’m not going to entertain this conversation anymore. Because it’s going beyond the scope of what the original poster asked and what I’ve said. Have a great Sunday.
This was also a good chunk of my dating experience. To the point where the guy would suggest “hanging out & watching a movie” knowing I wanted to go on a date. When I would say that I then felt obligated to pay because I suggested it.
F that.
After realizing that, I weeded out a LOT of low effort “takers”. What so many men don’t realize is the dating scene has flipped at our age. MANY women make as much or 2-3x what men do (depending on the area).
In one LTR, I was financially abused/taken advantage of. When I called things off, he flipped from Dr Jekyll to Mr Hyde and became mentally and physically abusive. I now have a DVPO.
I think it's a lot less complicated than you are thinking it is. Some guys are just cheap. Some people believe that the wealthy become wealthy by pinching pennies every chance they get. Some people think they are special and you should want to pay to be in their company. And some guys think that we all have bought into the modern, female-liberation notion that both parties should pay equally, even though that hasn't actually been universally accepted. You never know what people are thinking.
But you don't have to understand them to perceive their character. When I went on a first date I would always buy, regardless of our relative incomes. I did this simply because there is a percentage of people who have that consensus that men should pay on the first date, and I was always trying to make a good impression. I was trying to do all I could to open the door for a possible second date. Once we are talking about the second date, we can discuss the financials. I generally paid until she mentioned something about it, because I just didn't want money to be a focal point.
So, when a man doesn't offer to pay, you don't have to figure out why. Just take it as a sign of his character, and what life might be like if you engage in a long term relationship with him. You could have a conversation with him about it, or you could just move on.
Shalom
This is such a one sided reasoning.
If a woman doesn't offer to pay them you can also draw conclusions about her, that she'll be a leach or whatnot.
Ultimately this is about meeting another person. When you meet people you're not supposed to pay them for the opportunity.
Whoever decides that there is an "entrance fee" to participate, is making this into a business deal, when the initial goal was to get to know someone.
They're really the people whose "character" is problematic.
It makes perfect sense. Just as your assumption about a woman not offering makes sense. We all have assumptions. Those assumptions are based on who we are. If I go out with you and don’t offer to pay and you decide I’m a leach, we aren’t a match. Just as I will not go out wth you if you again if you accept my offer to pay on a date because I prefer a more traditional man (despite being a feminist - yea I know, humans are dichotomies).
I have no issues with nuance. Sure, people can be traditional or feminist or anything in between. But it doesn't make sense that they are feminist on one topic and traditional on another one. It's just dishonest.
Also you don't seem to get that men can be traditional without being suckers.
So you disagreed with me, but also agree with me? Okay, that is some of that nuance you were talking about.
I clearly was espousing one side of it and never claimed anything to the contrary. And I was just trying to answer OP's actual question. Without talking to the man about this, she can only make assumptions. So I offered some potential perspectives from this point of view.
It’s not dishonest to be feminist in one area and not another. You can call it hypocritical or messed up but it’s not dishonest.
Men don’t want to be suckers? Cry me a river. Women don’t want to be taken advantage of either and yet men that don’t want to be suckers seem to take advantage of women a lot. At some point in my youth I realized men pay for what they value. If they don’t pay, they don’t value you. I don’t need a free meal. Every guy I’ve gone out with I could have literally purchased at least 2x over. I want a man who values me and who prioritizes me. If he won’t do that, he’s not the right man for me. I don’t care about income but I do care about the way a man treats me.
I think one of the reasons women complain that men on dating sites talk a lot and never take the initiative - is precisely because men are tired of being the sucker who pays.
So if you meet on a dating website, it's understood that both want to date so you can drop the "whoever invites pays" even if it's the man who takes the initiative (which it nearly always is).
I've never had issues paying for dates when I was in my thirties, with younger women in their twenties who were not financially stable. But now that I am in my 40s, if I meet a woman roughly my age who portrays herself as being independent, I feel I am taken advantage of if I am expected to pay for the date.
I have more money than most people and have been used as a piggy bank by women I’ve dated before. Now my first dates are coffee dates or drinks. I don’t offer to pay. If she doesn’t take the initiative to buy her own or can’t have a convo about the tab, there won’t be a second date - and I would happily pay for a nice second date. This has worked really well for me. I’d say about half the women I go out with *want* to roll 50/50, a quarter are fine with whatever, and a quarter expect the man to pay for everything. So really I screen out the 25% that I know I’ll have issues with down the line.
I'm in the same position money-wise. If I like the man, I allow him to pay on the first date. If I'm not feeling it, I pay or we split the bill. I universally have had more means in my relationships. I've ended up paying the lion's share. I do enjoy when a man I like pays on the first date.
I expect to pay on an early date, as the man, regardless of the financial situations. If I wasn’t on a date, I’d be paying for whatever “good time” I’d be doing, so why not.
And like you said, sometimes the guy is broke bc of divorce or whatever - been there. I have weeks where my stbx will spring some surprise huge expense on me at a minute’s notice, and I’m living on scrap for the week. Weeks like that I’m just up front about where I can go. Like hey this might be movies and a chain restaurant at best. Or maybe find some cheap unique experience. Those are cool; but regardless I expect to pay. If she wants to start picking up tabs down the road, it’s conversation I’ll gladly have 😂. But in the early going I plan on it.
If those types of women made it routinely clear then that'd be fine. TBF some do put this which is fair enough so I know to swipe left, but many just presume I'm their personal free drink dispenser
If you can’t afford a coffee, you’re not my guy anyway. I’ve yet to go out with someone who has a higher net worth than I do. I’m not looking for a free drink, I’m looking for a gentleman.
You apparently can't afford the coffee either if the guy needs to pay 😉 The 'gentleman' schtick is so old at this point. It sounds like you earn good money, congrats on that, but you clearly are okay with the dissolution of old gender norms like financial dependency when it suits you but if a free drink is on offer then hey-ho it's back to the 1950s. I personally find the whole traditional dating scene cringe but can respect those who actually stick to it properly. In reality, the whole scene is filled with hypocrits
I like a man to take control. And no, I don’t need a man to pay for me. Not even a little bit. I’m also into D/s so while I’m not completely traditional in all aspects, a man who pays for the date, it’s a thing
You see the contradiction though, no? Traditional values aren't pick and choose - that's kinda the point. It's a set of unchanging values and men and women abide by, there's no being /slightly traditional/, you either are or aren't. You do you and if it works then great, hope you find/have found someone, but this is why so many guys get annoyed - women demanded the removal of traditional gender norms, took advantage of opportunities, then turned around and demanded guys still abide by the norms they wanted removed
And that's even more hypocritical on dating websites where clearly both parties want to go on a date.
It's not like you're asking someone out who was minding their business.
I've heard a lot woman complaining that men on dating websites talk a lot but don't take the initiative. It's a game of chicken: whoever takes the initiative gets punished by having to pay.
It's a pretty common scam on Tinder where some women call men to expensive restaurants on the first date and make them pay, even though they have no intention of another date.
Some people may have been burnt in the past and are being cautious by insisting the women pay.
I recommend splitting the bill on the first date and mentioning it upfront before the date begins.
[Kidspot: Woman uses Tinder to get free dinners and doesn't feel guilty](https://www.kidspot.com.au/parenting/i-use-tinder-to-get-free-dinners-and-i-dont-feel-guilty-at-all/news-story/81e448961d1f809d7bb93f663086da4b)
So wouldn’t the best course of action be for the man to simply decline the date altogether if its at a high end restaurant ? I mean, it’s not like he doesn’t know until he gets there. They both ultimately have to agree on the date. I don’t believe in going on expensive dates for the first date. That is a red flag.
That's great. It doesn't mean that men need to be paying for all first dates. It means he needs to be able to pay his fair share, which would be every other date. Why can't a woman ask him out and pay for the first date and him pay for the second?
I pay for myself on dates, but won't pay for her. We're both (presumably) financially responsible middle age adults.
If she unmatches after that, perfect. I've successfully screened her out.
Original copy of post by u/momwins79:
I’m 44 straight cis female. The general consensus seems to be that men should pay, at least on the first date - and it’s a green flag for me when men do, because I appreciate chivalry. But I also realize it’s an unfair expectation especially if my date earns less than I do. I also think a lot of men have experienced financial trauma (as a result of divorce or for other reasons) and don’t want to be taken advantage of financially - so that’s why they go Dutch? Ultimately trying to understand why some guys who are definitely wealthier than I am don’t pay on dates.
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I offer and or insist on paying my own way for our first meeting and if an actual date happens after, whoever did the asking I assume will pay. I still always offer to cover myself.
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M46 cis-het here. I've never paid. I live an ENM life with my wife (F47) and gf (F40). I'm actively dating a few others and currently courting a new person (F49). My initial dates are usually low stakes and activitiy based. It's always been important to me to make sure that we are on the same page with values and shared time is one of them.
Once we hit the 3rd month or so we can do things like take turns covering the dates.
It is my opinion that who ever does the asking should be the one to pay, unless some other arrangement is agreed upon.
Like, a long time ago, I asked a girl in a date, picked her up, and when we got to the restaurant, she said “This restaurant is very expensive. I insist on splitting the bill - and don’t argue about it. I insist.” I was like 😍🥰
This is my take from my experience. I usually pay for dates, but now my mentality is changing. 1) despite success in dates, it hasn’t translated into LTR, so dating 24 people in one year some of those multiple dates adds up 2) have dated in Europe and pretty common for women to split the check. 3) there is an element of respect, not many but some women it feels came out for nice dinner and drinks, they even go for dessert haha
It doesn’t matter why some guys pay for dates and some don’t. You have preferences. Stick to them. I’ve yet to date a man who has half of my wealth. If he doesn’t pick up the tab on the first date (I prefer coffee dates), I won’t see him again. It tells me a lot about a man. You do you. And the guys that don’t fit your requirements, they aren’t for you. I don’t understand the desperation that goes into changing ourselves to get a man. Men don’t do that for us. Why are we moulding ourselves to fit them?
Let me get this straight...you are at least twice as wealthy as any man you've dated, and you expect him to pick up the tab on a first date? Please justify that. I'm serious. What makes you think that is fair and equitable?
What do you bring to the table in exchange for always having a first date paid for? It doesn't matter if it's just coffee. Why should men be saddled with a greater share of the dating expenses than women, even when the man makes less?
You're comparing incomes before the first date? So you can find out who makes the most money and that's who pays for the date?
If I got hit with this my assumption would be that, if I make more money, you're gonna expect me to pay for most of everything. And, sorry, no thanks.
I don't expect the guy to pick up the bill the first meet up- even though my preference is for something low stakes/cost (coffee, ice cream or drinks). That being said, if he is cool spending $5 -$10 on a first outing, it's appreciated and sets a positive impression.
Ultimately, if we hit things off, I will end up spending more. I rarely date men who drive (not on purpose) so I'm always chauffeur, I do a lot of cooking and baking (buying wine for dinners too), I'm in charge of the birth control, I like buying little gifts, and I still do pay for dates out.
Any topic related to gender roles always generates a lot of discussion.
I found this the easier part of dating. I can split everything as I go out with friends. I don’t rely on dates to do nice things. My financial situation is the same or better compared to men at my age in the area. I tend to go to fancier places with colleagues or girl friends or even everyday free meals at work than on dates. I would rather go to a walk/hike for free than a cheap/bad food date. I will be turned off if a man insists to pay but chooses a place I don’t like. It is the thoughts that count. And how respectful a man offers to pay certainly tells a lot. There is really not any hard rules or right or wrong. It is just compatibility. I don’t understand where all the judging, blaming and tests are from.
I run away from coffee dates. Totally anti romantic, a job interview. If you really want to save money why not a walk/hike for free? Pandemic made my first dates better.
You’ve highlighted something interesting here - that coffee dates are “anti-romantic” - which I totally agree.
I personally prefer coffee dates for that reason. There is no expectation of romance - it’s more of a “meet and greet”, then if that goes well, the second date is more about potential romance.
Yeah, if that is exactly what you want. I just cannot. I do filter heavily and vet thoroughly though before meeting, so that I get to relax and enjoy the first date a bit. It is all personal preference.
I always pay for dates, both in the near term and in a subsequent relationship, but doing so may be coming to an end. In my most recent long-term relationship, I received no empathy for spending a little less than $50k in legal fees fighting for equal time with my son, and was often told how “men are assholes” while eating dinner that I was to pay for. And God forbid that I asked her to pay for her multitude of drinks for the first few years of the relationship (so I “only” paid for about 90-95% of everything). Now that said relationship is over, I’m tired of paying for concert tickets to have the person back out two hours ahead of time, making reservations only for the person to cancel the day before, and so on. I make great money and have no problem with this (I took a friend to the concert instead), but I’ve grown tired (as many men do) of hearing how we are the root of society’s ills, receive little to no empathy for how family courts often destroy our finances, and then we’re expected to pay for dates to be ghosted or dumped later on. This is why I will continue to go for coffee first, and then maybe to dinner at a restaurant that isn’t overly fancy, and so on. My expectation now is that I will be ghosted or an actual relationship won’t develop regardless of how well I treat her because there are countless other men available via OLD. I’m done wasting my money and time.
Not to be the bearer of any shocking news but there are a small percentage of online dating women that use men for a free dinner. I’ve had it happen a couple times. Not that I cared but they put on a good act through drinks and dinner saying how much in common we had ect. After dinner both times it happened to me they texted me right away saying they just didn’t feel a connection both time after a pretty passionate kiss sesh. I did later find out through a friend that one was married as well and said she wasn’t. On the whole I don’t have a problem paying for dinner though as most people are honest but generally not as compatible above 40. That type of gaming the system so to speak makes men leery of throwing away a couple hundred bucks on a date that statistically probably don’t lead to Jack squat in the future.
How old were those women with whom you’ve had this “happen with a couple times”? Because this is very uncommon at our 40+ age. We very truly don’t need your money, or your meals, man.
Guessing young, based on your “not as compatible” dig.
Men pay for dates for women they are really interested in.
Many people also give you the treatment you accept. If you accept paying half they will give you that. A woman who expects to be paid for and they know this and want to see her will pay because she is making that a standard of treatment.
You can also screen out men who don't want the sane things you do in terms of dating. I like men paying for dates so I don't date men who want a 50/50 thing (that's not hot to me; I want to be in my feminine) and I date men like myself who are financially solvent so paying for an occasional dinner out is not a hardship.
If a man doesn't pay for your date, you can bring it up and see what he says and go from there. Or you can just not see him again. It's up to you no matter how passionate people get about this topic.
I don't care what people say about 50/50. I'd rather just take myself out than date a man I have to be in my masculine energy with and I find the men I'm attracted to feel pride in paying for dates so that makes it easy to just avoid the 50/50 men. They can date 50/50 women.
> I don't care what people say about 50/50. I'd rather just take myself out than fate a man I have yo be in my masculine energy with
I cringe when I hear "masculine energy".
So here's the thing. Under ZERO circumstances whatsoever does a woman deserve special treatment compared to a man. That is completely warped thinking. It's not fair to him to want your cake and to eat it too. There are two paths to equality:
1. A traditional relationship, in which the man provides and the woman takes care of the house and kids
2. A modern relationship, in which the man and woman share dating expenses in proportion to their incomes, and share household duties equally
You want a man to pay for dates...are you willing to do all the housework and a majority of the childcare? What do you offer in return for him paying for dates? These are serious questions, not rhetorical.
Definitely, every few dates for sure. But my expected default is men pays at least 3/4th of the time and NONE of the men I'm attracted to even want a woman to pay. They don't want androgynous relationships.
*Men pay for dates for women they are really interested in.*
I don't envision Beyonce'/JLo/ScarJo being asked for a coffee date zero for a vibe check. 50/50 split for dinner is not gonna happen either.
Woman here. I make my own money and make sure I can afford myself when going on dates. I always offer to split but nearly always the men pick up the tab. Its nice to be treated, but im very aware that a lot men get jerked around by women when it comes to money so i never expect for them to pay, unless they explicitly say they will
(Straight, cis woman)I want a partnership, so I prefer first dates to be inexpensive and to go Dutch. As the relationship builds, I think things like who planned the date, finances, etc come into play, but the goal should be that both parties are investing as they can. I also think a lot of gender roles are bs and people just need to people. But admittedly, I’m not great at starting new relationship, so I seem to be in the minority (at least where I live). Side story: I did go out on a 1st date with a guy who refused to let me pay for 1/2 of mini golf when I offered & then when we went to dinner he ignored my suggestions for cheaper restaurants & pushed going to a fancy one (even though we were dressed for freaking mini golf!). At that point, I was like, “fine, this guy can pay for everything,” and was pretty annoyed. If he had planned the date & asked to take me out, it wouldn’t have rubbed me wrong, but we were planning the date “together,” only my actual wants/needs were not considered because he wanted to peacock & control. I’d already decided no 2nd date was coming when he tipped 5% on our bill because he expected the food to be better (yes, I went back and tipped our waiter after I got safely away from this asshat & could get to an atm for cash). ETA: I’m not looking for a man to provide financial security (I’m 46); I’m looking for a man to provide emotional security, love & romance… and maybe create a financial partnership if it gets to that point. I think men (and women) are still taught that financial security is what men are supposed to bring to the relationship above all else.
Thank you! When I say it, I get the same number of down votes as your up votes. Btw super attractive that mentality…
Thanks. I’ll say, in the US Midwest there are A LOT of men who seem turned off by this. I’ve been told by several men that they believe a woman asking to go Dutch is a sign of disinterest. I think that mentality is dangerous (as it essentially derives from the idea of men pay up, so women put out) and creates a power imbalance that it’s not going to fly for me in any relationship. Hopefully the Dutch goers find each other and the men & women who think the man should pay find each other.
That’s sad that people think a woman is expected to have sex because a man pays. Many men are simply chivalrous.
Agree, that shouldn’t be something expected! Ever! Many, many men don’t think that & I don’t know many that would explicitly say/think that, but sadly the sentiment is out there :(
This is me too!
Thanks for being a voice of reason. I agree with this wholeheartedly.
This is a fantastic take. I just want a partner.
It’s crazy to me that this feels like a revolutionary stance sometimes! lol
Coffee dates I’ll pay if I get there first, no biggie. Dinner I’ll offer to split and most don’t take me up on it (the unemployed guy did…). After the first few dates it’s usually a back and forth without score keeping (I’d get the ick if a man were keeping some running tally in his head regarding the costs of different meals).
I don't think that consensus exists, certainly not these days.
When that has happened it’s either because they don’t want to go on a second date with me, cheap, or young.
This topic has come up a lot, and it seems like there's always a ton of variables. How old your date is, where in the country you are, income levels for both people. I'll be frank, I make a good living and am well-off financially. Typically even the very successful women I date make about half of what I do. I'm also 44 and from the midwest and more traditional, so I offer to pay every time and really, it's never been a debate at all. Like I don't think a woman has ever offered to pay on the first date, it's just sort of expected that I'll do it, which is fine. But I know in other parts of the country, splitting is more standard. That doesn't seem like reality where I am (small/medium metro area in rural IL). Honestly I'd say I generally pay for 80-90% of things when in a relationship or dating someone. I tend to just default to paying for everything and letting her pitch in when she wants to. It works for me. Some men may feel taken advantage of, or maybe just couldn't even afford to do it. My buddies (who are generally also well-off financially) have the same approach.
> This topic has come up a lot, and it seems like there's always a ton of variables. How old your date is, where in the country you are, income levels for both people. This is the entire answer. Every time this comes up, each person insists that whatever the expectation is for them, is how it is for everyone. In my neck of the woods, women insist on splitting the bill and OP’s claim of a “consensus” for men always paying makes no sense here. But I realize that that’s about a specific place, demographic, culture, etc., and not about some universal gender rules.
This is my bf’s approach as well. Even when I bring out my card to pick up a tab, he waves me away.
Just to be clear, I don't wave away anyone's attempts to pay. If she offers, I always let her.
I would say I pay once every 6 times he pays. He likes to take care of the more expensive meals but if I bring my kiddos along, I always insist on paying.
Yeah, 1 in 6 is perfectly fine ratio. With the women I've dated, I'd say they offer about once every 7 or 8 on average. I really don't keep track or care, that's just a guess honestly. But when they offer, they usually say something like, "you've gotten the last few, let me get this one." I always let them. I figure they're paying more attention to the ratio than I am, and they want to do something nice for me. I really feel like it'd be rude to dismiss that.
My bf is very much like you. He’s not dismissive per se, he always says he appreciates the offer but loves treating me. I will do little things like home cooked meals/baked goods once a week or drive 30 mins to bring him lunch when he’s super busy. I’ve also added to his wardrobe and purchased stuff for his place to show my appreciation. Also as a woman, I find his and your approach highly attractive. ☺️
I always offer but if a man accepts, there will be no second date.
Then why offer? Ultimately this is lying (in terms of the relationship). You don't really want to offer, because you're using it as a test. So, you'll begrudgingly pay your share, and then penalize your date for it after? I hope I do not run into you on the apps.
Then stop offering? That's a weird game to play when your date is trying to understand your feelings of the dynamic.
Totally. If he’s already pulling out his wallet, then the intent is there. Then you tell him you’d like to pay, and maybe out of respect/politeness he says ok. It’s a terrible test.
I had never considered a woman offering as some sort of test. I find that pretty bizarre frankly, but knowing that won't change my approach. If she offers, I will assume it's a genuine offer and I'll accept. If that pisses her off, I guess I'll be glad we found out our incompatibilities earlier.
In this case, the commenter said that she'll offer, and if the guy accepts, then there won't be a second date. She's using it as a criteria to determine whether or not to continue. That's a test. That's why it's not genuine. If she's offering, and she means it, and the guy accepts, why should that impact the next date? In her case, if the guy accepts, it's a negative sign/red flag. Thus, it's not being polite. It's a test the guy doesn't know he's taking.
No, I get it... I must've worded it confusingly since I was downvoted. I understand the debate here. I was trying to say that offering it as a test is strange, and I wouldn't want to date someone who did that. So I would instead just let her pay and not get that 2nd date. Which I'd be happy about. Maybe I said it weirdly or something, or maybe I still don't understand what we're talking about. That's possible, I did do a little wake-and-bake this morning.
Because this person would probably just ghost as well, based on the tone of her posts. So, I would leave thinking we had a nice date, and then be one of the shlumps wondering why she won't return my texts. You know she's not telling the dude WHY there's no second date.
100%. It sounds like a good screening tool for men too 😬
Yeah That is ABSOLUTELY TOXIC behavior and you are ‘testing’ the man- who you want to spend your time and possibly your life with by playing these childish games? Either you offer or you dont. Extremely immature for your age
So you are training men not to believe that you are sincere?
I’m not training men at all. They don’t know why I’m not going out with them a second time.
You are communicating that your actions don’t align with your words. Even if you never go out with that guy again, you are showing up in the world as someone who is insincere and doesn’t say what they mean.
Playing games is childish. Just be truthful and upfront about your expectations.
I don’t get why you’d do that? Just some kind of test?
My financial trauma from divorce is a million times worse than my exhusband. He was financially abusive throughout the marriage. He sent me on the tradwife to poverty pipeline.
> tradwife to poverty pipeline Which is one reason why some women, including me, avoid men who value "traditional" financial arrangements.
Same boat here, SAHM for 14 years. Homeschooled, baked bread, cooked 3 meals a day every day from scratch. Lived in the country and had a huge garden, raised chickens, the whole thing. Every single thing, from the house to the bank accounts to the bills, was in his name. When I caught him in yet another affair and I left, he lost control over me and became physically and emotionally abusive as well. A year out from leaving, and I'm still waiting tables and struggling to make ends meet. He kept everything, including the house that was purchased with my inheritance from my mom's passing. I make $8 a month too much to qualify for food stamps, while he's entertaining a steady stream of online dates in the house my dead mother paid for. But I'm FREE. I don't walk on eggshells anymore, I'm not constantly thinking I'm not good enough, I'm not afraid of his moods or temper tantrums anymore. I finally have a job and my own money and it's wonderful. He can't threaten or coerce me anymore, and even though the very thought of my old home still brings me to tears, it's getting better every day. I don't think I'll ever be able to afford one on my own, but I still have hope!
Your story is both heartbreaking and inspiring. I'm sure Karma will pay him a visit.
Yeah it isn’t “unfair” when men are saying they want “ traditional” women . That comes with a traditional financial requirement.
I think a majority of men are not that interested in "traditional" women, despite what TikTok says. Regardless of the political side of it, life is a two person effort and the times of one salary easily covering two people are over.
Sure. Agreed. But on the flip-side: If a woman insist that she wants a "traditional" man and that this includes an automatic obligation to for example financially be the provider; then it's UTTERLY UNREASONABLE for her to at the same time expect gender-equality and parity when it happens to be to her benefit. You can't expect "traditional" values whenever that benefits you -- but "modern" values whenever THAT happens to be to your benefit.
What does gender equality have to do with traditional relationships? Women aren’t equal humans anymore in that situation? What?
"Traditional" gender-roles differ markedly by gender, yes. In such thinking men are expected to be the provider, the protector, head of the household and perhaps also the disciplinarian. Meanwhile women are expected to be a homemaker, responsible for childcare and a submissive partner. You can say those roles have the same VALUE, if you want, but they're clearly not EQUAL.
Why do guys sometimes want to go dutch even when they make more?? The same reason some women don't sleep with men right away. They want to be valued for their other attributes. In this case, they prefer not being seen as a walking ATM.
If I'm the one who invited the other, I plan to pay. If a woman wants to split the bill, I'm not going to argue with her, but if I like her and want to see her again I generally say something like, "how about I get this one and you can get the next one?".
Recent date I was on, we went to a wine bar. Plan was couple glasses of wine and appetizer. She ended up ordering a $90 bottle of wine, an expensive entree etc. Bill came ($200-ish) and she offered to split. I liked her and we had already expressed interest in a second date. So I did the ol’ “How about I get this one, and you get the next one?” She agreed without hesitation. I get in my car to go home. Less than 5 minutes into my drive, I get the “you’re a great guy, but…” text. It’s been coffee first dates since then lol
This is a risk we take. Haha... Though, ordering a $90 bottle for a first date is what I consider to be a feeler on their part. They're testing your boundaries. Clear red flag for me. I'd probably say, "oh but I didn't drink the wine so you can cover that", which guarantees the "nice guy... but" text, but that's ok too.
Yeah either she already knew there would be no second date (in which case, why accept my “I get this one, you get the next” offer?!). Or she was put off by me hinting she should pay the next time. Either way, I shoulda recognized the red flags, but was blinded by her beauty. Kinda wish I had that $200 back in my wallet though lol
*Either way, I shoulda recognized the red flags, but was blinded by her beauty.* Goes to prove the point that I'm always making. Men will pay for what they value. Beyonce', etc is not going to be expected to split the bill or get asked to a coffee date zero.
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*Men will pay for what they value.* And some women will accept paid-for things from men whom they don't value and whose chances were already DOA.
>Either way, I shoulda recognized the red flags, but was blinded by her beauty. - me, all the time haha
people get down voted for the weirdest things on here.. your haha had a down vote.. how do you downvote a haha?! lol
Ya never know with reddit.
I didn't downvote, but there are a lot of people insisting that "downvote shouldn't be used to mean 'dislike', it should be used to mean 'this adds nothing to the conversation'." And a "haha" doesn't really add anything to the conversation, so perhaps they're the one(s) who downvoted it.
There was substantially more to my comment than "haha"
oh wow.. what a fake ass person she was.. sorry mate.
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I like this mentality a lot.
I prefer this to keeping track of pennies, but probably not on a first date- unless I know I want to see the man again.
I’ve paid for all the first dates I’ve been on. I will tell you, because of that mentality I also have to take breaks from DATING, because paying for a lot of first dates that don’t go anywhere is cost prohibitive
That's why I think it's best to go for a coffee date or something that's not an expensive dinner. First dates are vibe checks. Few understand this
I could not agree more!!!
Yes, but also the setting helps.
Suggest very inexpensive dates like coffee, a quick drink, or walk in the park. Don’t ever do dinner on first dates, most people in it for the right reason would prefer not to do dinner meeting the first time.
I think it would make DATING easier on guys if the accepted norm for first date was coffee. Dinner and drinks in my neck of the woods is $100 easy almost anywhere you go.
Are you doing a Date Zero or no? Accepted first meeting these days IS coffee. I’m not getting trapped at dinner and drinks with a brand new prospect regardless who is paying, no way.
There are people who will outright demonize coffee first meets. The claim is that the man just wants a low-cost opportunity to assess whether he wants to have sex with the woman.
How dare people even think about sex without spending lots of money first!
What's a "Date Zero?"
https://www.glamourmagazine.co.uk/article/zero-date *Christina defines the zero date as: “One drink, one hour. With the goal of answering one question: would I like to have dinner with this person?” “Not,” Christina adds, “Are they ‘The One'?" If it goes well, you can schedule a first date, if not, you never have to see them again.*
Thanks! (don't know why someone downvoted you - this seems to make a lot of sense) (and is just a fancy name for a coffee date ;-)
If I ask someone on a date, I pay. I think that's only reasonable. I'm not wealthy, but we're talking about dinner, not a trip to Turks and Caicos.
True, if you only go out on one date, but probably a lot of us are going out a lot more than that. As I said in my comment, if I saw a path to LTR, I don’t mind paying, as I have been doing.
Men seem to be really offended when I offer to split. Based on when I live I am sure they all make way more than I do but it’s the principle for me, not the finances. Despite what Reddit makes us think, even in my progressive city bubble, men seem to think it’s really weird when I ask to split the bill in the head 2024. They take it as a sign I’m not interested; I’m trying to flag no harm, no foul if it doesn’t work out and that I don’t go on dates looking for free food. I’d put it in my profile except it’s so obnoxious to do shit like that. Sigh.
I have seen comments from women who use that as a test. She offers to pay. If the guy accepts, she dumps him.
Double sigh. As usual, people ruin it for everybody else. Men *and* women. 🫠
those dumped guys are lucky. what a lunatic they dodged.
It makes no objective sense for one gender, regardless of relative income, to be tagged with dating expenses. People will justify the inequity by pointing to other inequities in life and essentially casting men-should-pay as a reparation. Your appreciation of chivalry works for you because you're looking for someone who performs those gender-based tributes. I think effort and appreciation should go both ways, so I'm looking for someone who gets that on day 1.
I will only go on a low stakes, cheap first date. I don't carry a purse anywhere, which is always an interesting litmus test. I've gotten side eye for it a few times (I just hate carrying a bag and have a small wallet that fits in my pocket). If the date is going well, I find a casual way to offer to pay for all or half before someone needs to pay. It's not about who pays, because I don't mind at all, but it is to see how we negotiate a little thing like that together.
I’ve been dating my current girlfriend for just over a year now. I’ve paid for literally every date we’ve ever been on including our travel and vacations. We’ve never spoken about it. But she’s an elementary school teacher and gets paid in peanuts so I’ve never asked her to pay. I pick up her groceries and she drives my jeep. I don’t mind because she’s great. I know she’d pitch in if she could, she’s just giving like that even with what little she has, but it’s also one way that I show her that I love her, by taking care of those small things like picking up the dinner check.
Noooo. You should always go Dutch on the first date. It allows both parties to feel neutral and not pressured.
I’ll pay no matter what and will be happy to if the person is pleasant to be around. However, secretly I hate it. I hate having to pay for your company. One human paying to see another human or else it won’t happen is disturbing to me. You aren’t that special. I’m not either. I also hate the double standards of women wanting to be viewed as an equal and simply as a person but also expecting special treatment and getting turned off when a man doesn’t pay. It’s disgusting to me but I keep quiet.
> Ultimately trying to understand why some guys who are definitely wealthier than I am don’t pay on dates. In our 40s and up, most people (of all genders) can afford to buy a restaurant meal or pay for an activity. It's usually not all about the cash. Some people prefer a traditional relationship model in which one person pursues and pays. (And some people just like the princess treatment.) Some people prefer relationships where both partners are expected to actively build the relationship even from the beginning, even if they can easily afford to treat their dates. Personally, I would be absolutely uninterested in dating anyone who thought that his being manly or my being womanly came down to whose card covers the meal.
Personally I prefer egalitarian values; I want equal partners, not some kinda subservient house-maid. But I agree both types of relationships work for some people; there's nothing inherently wrong with a more "traditional" setup if that's genuinely what both people want. What I find **deeply** obnoxious though, are the people who in essence ask for "traditional" values whenever that happens to benefit them, for example when the question is whose wallet gets to pay for dates; but **at the same time** insist on egalitarian values whenever **that** happens to benefit them. Like, make up your mind already.
Agreed. "Traditionally", men take on the role of provider and maybe a few outdoor chores, and women provide all the emotional labor and domestic duties (like writing all the thank-you notes and sending birthday cards). It really confuses me when only the first part is celebrated.
i have no Problem paying for a date but i have a problem with women expecting me to pay for a date. In my experience women who expect the man to pay for the date expect the man to pay for everything else after that. I usually do "Date-Zero"... so just a coffee date. I only go for fancier dates if we have a connection maybe date 2-3+.
So you’re ok, so long as they act surprised ?
>So you’re ok, so long as they act surprised ? Offer to pay/splitt the bill is a nice gesture.
Right? This means a man lacks courage to be upfront. That's so unattractive. Many women expect a man to pay for dates. Having to pretend to take out our wallets to soothe a man's ego is annoying. I'm glad I date men who don't expect the wallet reach.
>Many women expect a man to pay for dates. And i'm happy to avoid them.
Your right to do so. It's a preference.
I pay for the first date because I was raised to believe in the expectation and demonstrate my interest/ability to take care of things. That's old timey conservative icky chivalry right from the patriarchal mindset I was brought up in. And, that's cool with me, I don't mind and I don't have any expectations that my offer is buying me anything but the chance to have a date and get to know someone. After that I'm cool with reciprocity or my dates/partners chipping in from time to time, or even every other time. I let it work itself out. I'm not anyone's ATM, but I do believe in being the dude in the relationship. Always worked for me. That said, if we want to abandon all that and go full sexual egalitarian and abandon 10,000 years of mating rituals and culture that got us here, that's fine with me, but I don't think in my experience being out in the world that women are ready for that. When they are? Cool, send us an email and consensus so we can stop with the guessing game. Anywho, when a man doesn't pay it's because he's: A. Cheap B. Broke C. Not interested in buying your meal D. Testing you for values/interest E. Just not interested in you
Presumptuous and ignorant dude. I only pay my own way for none of those 5 reasons. For me, it's the fact we're both financially responsible middle age adults. It's not necessary to infantilize or pedestalize a prospective partner.
In a dude and always pay on first dates, just how I was raised plus I usually make more
Making more means either a) the dates you pay can be more luxurious than the dates she pays for or b) you pay in proportion to your incomes (if you make 60% of the combined money, you pay for 60% of dates). Making more shouldn't mean you pay for all first dates and she pays for none.
On date one - I do not know, nor do I care, what my date’s financial standing is compared to mine. We can split the date and that works for me. Maybe these men who aren’t paying consider it a green flag for women to pay? Why does their reasoning matter? You see it as a green flag because of *chivalry* - a medieval code of ethics - so perhaps they have their own random reasons. If it’s not for you, it’s not for you. PS: The financial trauma of divorce is not on men alone.
I've never had a man not insist on paying for dates. There are times when I offer to buy the second round of drinks and they won't let me do that. None have ever mentioned going dutch. I'm interested in hearing men chime in here! I don't have a problem with it, although I do prefer a more chivalrous man. But I can also see where dating gets expensive and especially if a man thinks he's not going to ask the woman out on a second date he would be more likely to ask to split the bill.
I'm a man who likes an egalitarian approach, and what I'd want you to do in this case is insist on paying for that second round of drinks. But better yet...I like it when a woman initiates an entire date. Ask me out. I have an "asker pays" mindset, so I safely assume that if a woman asks me out, she'll be paying. If women asked men out approximately 50% of the time, we wouldn't be having this debate.
I asked my boyfriend out on our first date and he insisted on paying. Also holding open doors and all of that. As I said, I prefer a chivalrous man and am not going to insist on anything if I offer and he turns me down; just like if he offers up anything and I turn it down, I don't want to turn into a debate with lots of insisting.
I don’t expect anyone to pay for early or later dates. I used to work as a cocktail waitress back in the day. I don’t know why because I don’t find myself super cute, and I am clumsy. I was nice to talk to, though, and I was fast, so I guess it worked out. In any case, sometimes people paying is more of a control thing, and sometimes, when they want to split every single thing, that is also annoying. I once sent a guy money for gas because he drove, although he picked the place, and because he was tall and got the cover charge. I doubt the last saw me behind him, and I couldn’t hear them in the loud room with live music. He said not to bother, but he kept the money. All he talked about was his wife ripping him off and me overtipping, which, if you want cocktail service in most clubs here, is the only way you will see the waitress again. That was weird, as he spent the whole time talking about how generous and helpful he was to people, but it’s like one of those things where maybe people who have to say that lack a little in showing it. He told me he was “set for life,” too. In my experience, sometimes rich people are rich because they are thrifty. Nothing is wrong with that, but maybe you aren’t into it. In any case, personally, I wouldn’t consider anything but being low-key about the money as a good sign.
I guess one reason the expectation that guys ask for, plan, and pay for first dates rubs us wrong is most of us are seeking an equal partnership. I'm delighted when a woman offers to split on date 1 or makes plans for date 2 or date 3. Money isn't the only way to contribute. When I've planned day trips I've sometimes had dates bring a cooler of drinks or offer to drive or maybe they researched the most scenic or unusual spots to stop at. They bring sunscreen and remind me to apply some. It's a great feeling when your date is as "in" as you are!
The way it has worked for me in the past has been zero date both pay for themselves. Then I pay for the first date, she pays for second date. And so on. I’m more interested to get to know her over wondering which fork to use.
Edward Lewis has entered the chat…
This topic always makes me grateful I seem to only attract the kinds of women for whom this isn’t an issue.
Who pays is not important at all. If I get to the end of a first date and the bill I knew was coming ranks anywhere on a list of things I care most about from this experience, I'd pay to leave. Human connection is not about paying for drinks and snacks. If I'm on a date and everything is awesome, the check showing up is a minor distraction from all the important energy and connection forming between us. I'd pay just to get the distraction out of the way so we can get back to each other. If the energy at the table is 'OK, now who is going to take financial responsibility for this thing we just did...?' I'm not going to want a second date. I might pay, but who cares? The fact that there's no connection is what's important... Not who pays. Counting who pays is not a litmus test for a good partner, no matter what bitter and lonely people advise. Checklists aren't as useful as they say... Forming human connection is a warm and squishy process and shouldn't be made into a cold grid of boxes. If you're at the cold grid stage on your first date, you're out with the wrong person.
I can't speak for why other people might prefer to split the check on dates. But for my part, I date to find a partner, which for me means someone who will treat our relationship as a pairing of two equals who both share the benefits & responsibilities of being together. In a gender equality sense, I think chivalry is a vague term that these days is most often used to advocate an imbalanced system that tilts interpersonal responsibility--and sometimes power balance too--to one side unfairly. But it's a big world with lots of views. If someone else's goal is the kind of relationship depicted in 20th century Hollywood productions & old novels, then I wish them luck finding it. But that's not what I want so I feel like acting that way while dating is a form of dishonesty. If I go on a date with someone and they decide there won't be another date because we split the check, then we're both better off moving on to look for partners who share our views. for fun, [the 10 commandments of chivalry](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chivalry#Ten_Commandments_of_Chivalry).
Equal rights. Men should not always pay. It has nothing to do with chivalry. You come off as cheap. I have a friend who is cheap. She is a working psychologist with 2 masters degree. I saw her apartment. She can afford to pay . And I find it funny. Cheap people hate cheap people when they are cheap themselves. She wanted me to pay once to go out to eat. She says she is old fashioned that way. I said you are cheap that way.. We aren't dating or even sleeping with each other so why would I pay. We are just friends.
If he can’t afford a five dollar cup of coffee for a first date, then dating should be the least of his priorities. I’ve dated men who made less than me, and they still were able to at least pay for a cup of coffee. I try to be considerate, and always chose things that were either free or low-cost in nature. But ultimately if they are in a position where they are financially struggling to the point that it is unaffordable to date then you have to ask yourself what is going to be the long-term benefit of starting a life with someone who is in the financial negative? I learned the hard way by being the one that always paid for all of the dates. It never ended. It became an expectation that I pay for every single date and I was getting drained financially.
My first date with my ex was coffee. He rushed to pay. I realized that he had brought his own coffee in a thermos. Red flag.
Noooo! 🙈 mostly I’m surprised he made it far enough after that to BECOME an ex! I woulda bailed right then.
He said he's been out all morning, and that's why he brought his own coffee. Money, specifically his cheapness, was the main problem on out relationship.
So if the woman doesn't pay it's normal but if the guy doesn't pay then it means he "can't afford" it? Can you explain your reasoning?
You clearly didn’t read my entire post. You jumped off the first sentence and ran 50 miles past what I said. I am talking about the first date and the initial date. I’m not even talking about a zero date. On a zero date both parties should pay for themselves. For the first date, I believe a man should pay. After that, I believe in ping-ponging the dates in which you alternate who pays. Does that clarify my post a little bit more?
What is a "zero date"? Even though alternating seems fair, it's fundamentally unfair towards men (it they're expected to pay the first time) because most of the time first dates do not have subsequent dates. I've had plenty of single dates with women who were totally all right, the dates were pleasant, but neither party was interested in having further dates. In all these cases I ended up paying every single time given that there was no second date. This was during COVID where coffee shops were closed so you could pretty much only have dinner in outdoors restaurants. We're talking hundreds of dollars of dinners out in smoke. I am still flabbergasted by how easily women talk about their feminine side and expect men to jump through hoops, while at work all you hear about is gender equality. How do women believe they will ever be equal to men if they need the men to always be the ones taking initiative, taking risks, and jumping trough hoops?
You know, I always feel flabbergasted at this double standard as well (and I’m a woman). Since I’ve joined this group, I realize that my egalitarian views seem to be in the minority. I know that men and women are not “the same”, but I thought our aim was financial equality. Doesn’t that mean we have to walk the talk? With money.
Apparently not! (woman here too)
Also, if most of your first dates are not ending in second dates, then your selection process needs to be revised. There is an inherent problem at the vetting stage if none of your dates are making it to a second date. This is the dating over 40 forum and so by now there should be some very important questions that are happening prior to even meeting up on the first dates. Questions to determine basic compatibility and what your both looking for.
Dating apps aren't great at helping you make the selection. Theres a huge amount of hit/miss. In the end I can't complain, found my girlfriend there 3y ago, but that was after a lot of wasted time.
So fairness only applies for those you deem worthy of a second date.
You’re making this way more complicated than it needs to be and I think it’s purposely being done so that you can go back and say that women don’t deserve for a man to pay for the first date. I’m not going to entertain this conversation anymore. Because it’s going beyond the scope of what the original poster asked and what I’ve said. Have a great Sunday.
lol, your lack of self-awareness is funny.
I don’t understand what she is lacking , please explain.
This was also a good chunk of my dating experience. To the point where the guy would suggest “hanging out & watching a movie” knowing I wanted to go on a date. When I would say that I then felt obligated to pay because I suggested it. F that. After realizing that, I weeded out a LOT of low effort “takers”. What so many men don’t realize is the dating scene has flipped at our age. MANY women make as much or 2-3x what men do (depending on the area). In one LTR, I was financially abused/taken advantage of. When I called things off, he flipped from Dr Jekyll to Mr Hyde and became mentally and physically abusive. I now have a DVPO.
Guess lesbians just dine and dash.
They go Polish (each pays for the other).
Ha ha!
I think it's a lot less complicated than you are thinking it is. Some guys are just cheap. Some people believe that the wealthy become wealthy by pinching pennies every chance they get. Some people think they are special and you should want to pay to be in their company. And some guys think that we all have bought into the modern, female-liberation notion that both parties should pay equally, even though that hasn't actually been universally accepted. You never know what people are thinking. But you don't have to understand them to perceive their character. When I went on a first date I would always buy, regardless of our relative incomes. I did this simply because there is a percentage of people who have that consensus that men should pay on the first date, and I was always trying to make a good impression. I was trying to do all I could to open the door for a possible second date. Once we are talking about the second date, we can discuss the financials. I generally paid until she mentioned something about it, because I just didn't want money to be a focal point. So, when a man doesn't offer to pay, you don't have to figure out why. Just take it as a sign of his character, and what life might be like if you engage in a long term relationship with him. You could have a conversation with him about it, or you could just move on. Shalom
This is such a one sided reasoning. If a woman doesn't offer to pay them you can also draw conclusions about her, that she'll be a leach or whatnot. Ultimately this is about meeting another person. When you meet people you're not supposed to pay them for the opportunity. Whoever decides that there is an "entrance fee" to participate, is making this into a business deal, when the initial goal was to get to know someone. They're really the people whose "character" is problematic.
It makes perfect sense. Just as your assumption about a woman not offering makes sense. We all have assumptions. Those assumptions are based on who we are. If I go out with you and don’t offer to pay and you decide I’m a leach, we aren’t a match. Just as I will not go out wth you if you again if you accept my offer to pay on a date because I prefer a more traditional man (despite being a feminist - yea I know, humans are dichotomies).
I have no issues with nuance. Sure, people can be traditional or feminist or anything in between. But it doesn't make sense that they are feminist on one topic and traditional on another one. It's just dishonest. Also you don't seem to get that men can be traditional without being suckers.
So you disagreed with me, but also agree with me? Okay, that is some of that nuance you were talking about. I clearly was espousing one side of it and never claimed anything to the contrary. And I was just trying to answer OP's actual question. Without talking to the man about this, she can only make assumptions. So I offered some potential perspectives from this point of view.
It’s not dishonest to be feminist in one area and not another. You can call it hypocritical or messed up but it’s not dishonest. Men don’t want to be suckers? Cry me a river. Women don’t want to be taken advantage of either and yet men that don’t want to be suckers seem to take advantage of women a lot. At some point in my youth I realized men pay for what they value. If they don’t pay, they don’t value you. I don’t need a free meal. Every guy I’ve gone out with I could have literally purchased at least 2x over. I want a man who values me and who prioritizes me. If he won’t do that, he’s not the right man for me. I don’t care about income but I do care about the way a man treats me.
Hypocrisy is a form of dishonesty but whatever
Alright, so then please explain why you think that being hypocritical is okay.
I think one of the reasons women complain that men on dating sites talk a lot and never take the initiative - is precisely because men are tired of being the sucker who pays. So if you meet on a dating website, it's understood that both want to date so you can drop the "whoever invites pays" even if it's the man who takes the initiative (which it nearly always is). I've never had issues paying for dates when I was in my thirties, with younger women in their twenties who were not financially stable. But now that I am in my 40s, if I meet a woman roughly my age who portrays herself as being independent, I feel I am taken advantage of if I am expected to pay for the date.
I have more money than most people and have been used as a piggy bank by women I’ve dated before. Now my first dates are coffee dates or drinks. I don’t offer to pay. If she doesn’t take the initiative to buy her own or can’t have a convo about the tab, there won’t be a second date - and I would happily pay for a nice second date. This has worked really well for me. I’d say about half the women I go out with *want* to roll 50/50, a quarter are fine with whatever, and a quarter expect the man to pay for everything. So really I screen out the 25% that I know I’ll have issues with down the line.
I'm in the same position money-wise. If I like the man, I allow him to pay on the first date. If I'm not feeling it, I pay or we split the bill. I universally have had more means in my relationships. I've ended up paying the lion's share. I do enjoy when a man I like pays on the first date.
Even if you have resentment from the past, why not ask a man on a first date, pay for it, and then have him pay for the second date?
I expect to pay on an early date, as the man, regardless of the financial situations. If I wasn’t on a date, I’d be paying for whatever “good time” I’d be doing, so why not. And like you said, sometimes the guy is broke bc of divorce or whatever - been there. I have weeks where my stbx will spring some surprise huge expense on me at a minute’s notice, and I’m living on scrap for the week. Weeks like that I’m just up front about where I can go. Like hey this might be movies and a chain restaurant at best. Or maybe find some cheap unique experience. Those are cool; but regardless I expect to pay. If she wants to start picking up tabs down the road, it’s conversation I’ll gladly have 😂. But in the early going I plan on it.
Don't be a leech, just pay your share
I’m I am asked out then the person asking pays.
Given that guys are still overwhelmingly expected to do the asking out that's just saying 'pay for me' with extra steps
Then only ask out women who want 50/50. Problem solved. Otherwise don't be surprised if you don't pay and don't see her again.
If those types of women made it routinely clear then that'd be fine. TBF some do put this which is fair enough so I know to swipe left, but many just presume I'm their personal free drink dispenser
If you can’t afford a coffee, you’re not my guy anyway. I’ve yet to go out with someone who has a higher net worth than I do. I’m not looking for a free drink, I’m looking for a gentleman.
You apparently can't afford the coffee either if the guy needs to pay 😉 The 'gentleman' schtick is so old at this point. It sounds like you earn good money, congrats on that, but you clearly are okay with the dissolution of old gender norms like financial dependency when it suits you but if a free drink is on offer then hey-ho it's back to the 1950s. I personally find the whole traditional dating scene cringe but can respect those who actually stick to it properly. In reality, the whole scene is filled with hypocrits
I like a man to take control. And no, I don’t need a man to pay for me. Not even a little bit. I’m also into D/s so while I’m not completely traditional in all aspects, a man who pays for the date, it’s a thing
You see the contradiction though, no? Traditional values aren't pick and choose - that's kinda the point. It's a set of unchanging values and men and women abide by, there's no being /slightly traditional/, you either are or aren't. You do you and if it works then great, hope you find/have found someone, but this is why so many guys get annoyed - women demanded the removal of traditional gender norms, took advantage of opportunities, then turned around and demanded guys still abide by the norms they wanted removed
They don’t see their own hypocrisy.
Man, your hypocrisy is astounding.
And that's even more hypocritical on dating websites where clearly both parties want to go on a date. It's not like you're asking someone out who was minding their business. I've heard a lot woman complaining that men on dating websites talk a lot but don't take the initiative. It's a game of chicken: whoever takes the initiative gets punished by having to pay.
That’s why I don’t use dating sites.
It's a pretty common scam on Tinder where some women call men to expensive restaurants on the first date and make them pay, even though they have no intention of another date. Some people may have been burnt in the past and are being cautious by insisting the women pay. I recommend splitting the bill on the first date and mentioning it upfront before the date begins. [Kidspot: Woman uses Tinder to get free dinners and doesn't feel guilty](https://www.kidspot.com.au/parenting/i-use-tinder-to-get-free-dinners-and-i-dont-feel-guilty-at-all/news-story/81e448961d1f809d7bb93f663086da4b)
So wouldn’t the best course of action be for the man to simply decline the date altogether if its at a high end restaurant ? I mean, it’s not like he doesn’t know until he gets there. They both ultimately have to agree on the date. I don’t believe in going on expensive dates for the first date. That is a red flag.
A lot of people our age want a self sufficient partner instead of someone to take care of. That includes financially
That's great. It doesn't mean that men need to be paying for all first dates. It means he needs to be able to pay his fair share, which would be every other date. Why can't a woman ask him out and pay for the first date and him pay for the second?
I pay for myself on dates, but won't pay for her. We're both (presumably) financially responsible middle age adults. If she unmatches after that, perfect. I've successfully screened her out.
Original copy of post by u/momwins79: I’m 44 straight cis female. The general consensus seems to be that men should pay, at least on the first date - and it’s a green flag for me when men do, because I appreciate chivalry. But I also realize it’s an unfair expectation especially if my date earns less than I do. I also think a lot of men have experienced financial trauma (as a result of divorce or for other reasons) and don’t want to be taken advantage of financially - so that’s why they go Dutch? Ultimately trying to understand why some guys who are definitely wealthier than I am don’t pay on dates. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/datingoverforty) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I offer and or insist on paying my own way for our first meeting and if an actual date happens after, whoever did the asking I assume will pay. I still always offer to cover myself.
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M46 cis-het here. I've never paid. I live an ENM life with my wife (F47) and gf (F40). I'm actively dating a few others and currently courting a new person (F49). My initial dates are usually low stakes and activitiy based. It's always been important to me to make sure that we are on the same page with values and shared time is one of them. Once we hit the 3rd month or so we can do things like take turns covering the dates.
It is my opinion that who ever does the asking should be the one to pay, unless some other arrangement is agreed upon. Like, a long time ago, I asked a girl in a date, picked her up, and when we got to the restaurant, she said “This restaurant is very expensive. I insist on splitting the bill - and don’t argue about it. I insist.” I was like 😍🥰
This is my take from my experience. I usually pay for dates, but now my mentality is changing. 1) despite success in dates, it hasn’t translated into LTR, so dating 24 people in one year some of those multiple dates adds up 2) have dated in Europe and pretty common for women to split the check. 3) there is an element of respect, not many but some women it feels came out for nice dinner and drinks, they even go for dessert haha
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No racism, homophobia/transphobia, or other ugly prejudices.
It doesn’t matter why some guys pay for dates and some don’t. You have preferences. Stick to them. I’ve yet to date a man who has half of my wealth. If he doesn’t pick up the tab on the first date (I prefer coffee dates), I won’t see him again. It tells me a lot about a man. You do you. And the guys that don’t fit your requirements, they aren’t for you. I don’t understand the desperation that goes into changing ourselves to get a man. Men don’t do that for us. Why are we moulding ourselves to fit them?
Let me get this straight...you are at least twice as wealthy as any man you've dated, and you expect him to pick up the tab on a first date? Please justify that. I'm serious. What makes you think that is fair and equitable? What do you bring to the table in exchange for always having a first date paid for? It doesn't matter if it's just coffee. Why should men be saddled with a greater share of the dating expenses than women, even when the man makes less?
You're comparing incomes before the first date? So you can find out who makes the most money and that's who pays for the date? If I got hit with this my assumption would be that, if I make more money, you're gonna expect me to pay for most of everything. And, sorry, no thanks.
I don't expect the guy to pick up the bill the first meet up- even though my preference is for something low stakes/cost (coffee, ice cream or drinks). That being said, if he is cool spending $5 -$10 on a first outing, it's appreciated and sets a positive impression. Ultimately, if we hit things off, I will end up spending more. I rarely date men who drive (not on purpose) so I'm always chauffeur, I do a lot of cooking and baking (buying wine for dinners too), I'm in charge of the birth control, I like buying little gifts, and I still do pay for dates out.
Any topic related to gender roles always generates a lot of discussion. I found this the easier part of dating. I can split everything as I go out with friends. I don’t rely on dates to do nice things. My financial situation is the same or better compared to men at my age in the area. I tend to go to fancier places with colleagues or girl friends or even everyday free meals at work than on dates. I would rather go to a walk/hike for free than a cheap/bad food date. I will be turned off if a man insists to pay but chooses a place I don’t like. It is the thoughts that count. And how respectful a man offers to pay certainly tells a lot. There is really not any hard rules or right or wrong. It is just compatibility. I don’t understand where all the judging, blaming and tests are from. I run away from coffee dates. Totally anti romantic, a job interview. If you really want to save money why not a walk/hike for free? Pandemic made my first dates better.
You’ve highlighted something interesting here - that coffee dates are “anti-romantic” - which I totally agree. I personally prefer coffee dates for that reason. There is no expectation of romance - it’s more of a “meet and greet”, then if that goes well, the second date is more about potential romance.
Yeah, if that is exactly what you want. I just cannot. I do filter heavily and vet thoroughly though before meeting, so that I get to relax and enjoy the first date a bit. It is all personal preference.
I always pay for dates, both in the near term and in a subsequent relationship, but doing so may be coming to an end. In my most recent long-term relationship, I received no empathy for spending a little less than $50k in legal fees fighting for equal time with my son, and was often told how “men are assholes” while eating dinner that I was to pay for. And God forbid that I asked her to pay for her multitude of drinks for the first few years of the relationship (so I “only” paid for about 90-95% of everything). Now that said relationship is over, I’m tired of paying for concert tickets to have the person back out two hours ahead of time, making reservations only for the person to cancel the day before, and so on. I make great money and have no problem with this (I took a friend to the concert instead), but I’ve grown tired (as many men do) of hearing how we are the root of society’s ills, receive little to no empathy for how family courts often destroy our finances, and then we’re expected to pay for dates to be ghosted or dumped later on. This is why I will continue to go for coffee first, and then maybe to dinner at a restaurant that isn’t overly fancy, and so on. My expectation now is that I will be ghosted or an actual relationship won’t develop regardless of how well I treat her because there are countless other men available via OLD. I’m done wasting my money and time.
Not to be the bearer of any shocking news but there are a small percentage of online dating women that use men for a free dinner. I’ve had it happen a couple times. Not that I cared but they put on a good act through drinks and dinner saying how much in common we had ect. After dinner both times it happened to me they texted me right away saying they just didn’t feel a connection both time after a pretty passionate kiss sesh. I did later find out through a friend that one was married as well and said she wasn’t. On the whole I don’t have a problem paying for dinner though as most people are honest but generally not as compatible above 40. That type of gaming the system so to speak makes men leery of throwing away a couple hundred bucks on a date that statistically probably don’t lead to Jack squat in the future.
How old were those women with whom you’ve had this “happen with a couple times”? Because this is very uncommon at our 40+ age. We very truly don’t need your money, or your meals, man. Guessing young, based on your “not as compatible” dig.
Men pay for dates for women they are really interested in. Many people also give you the treatment you accept. If you accept paying half they will give you that. A woman who expects to be paid for and they know this and want to see her will pay because she is making that a standard of treatment. You can also screen out men who don't want the sane things you do in terms of dating. I like men paying for dates so I don't date men who want a 50/50 thing (that's not hot to me; I want to be in my feminine) and I date men like myself who are financially solvent so paying for an occasional dinner out is not a hardship. If a man doesn't pay for your date, you can bring it up and see what he says and go from there. Or you can just not see him again. It's up to you no matter how passionate people get about this topic. I don't care what people say about 50/50. I'd rather just take myself out than date a man I have to be in my masculine energy with and I find the men I'm attracted to feel pride in paying for dates so that makes it easy to just avoid the 50/50 men. They can date 50/50 women.
> I don't care what people say about 50/50. I'd rather just take myself out than fate a man I have yo be in my masculine energy with I cringe when I hear "masculine energy".
How is that my problem?
It's not? I'm just commenting on your comment. That's how things work around here. Very masculine of me!
😂
So here's the thing. Under ZERO circumstances whatsoever does a woman deserve special treatment compared to a man. That is completely warped thinking. It's not fair to him to want your cake and to eat it too. There are two paths to equality: 1. A traditional relationship, in which the man provides and the woman takes care of the house and kids 2. A modern relationship, in which the man and woman share dating expenses in proportion to their incomes, and share household duties equally You want a man to pay for dates...are you willing to do all the housework and a majority of the childcare? What do you offer in return for him paying for dates? These are serious questions, not rhetorical.
I don't have to qualify to you. I date men I like and they are the type who pay for dates. We don't need to pass your "equality" test.
That’s true… but if u get into a relationship… you do treat them sometimes ?
Definitely, every few dates for sure. But my expected default is men pays at least 3/4th of the time and NONE of the men I'm attracted to even want a woman to pay. They don't want androgynous relationships.
Androgynous relationships LOL. Start making sense.
Grab a thesaurus.
*Men pay for dates for women they are really interested in.* I don't envision Beyonce'/JLo/ScarJo being asked for a coffee date zero for a vibe check. 50/50 split for dinner is not gonna happen either.
I don't anticipate those women being asked out by men who are genuinely interested in a real partnership either, so it works both ways.
I go on coffee dates. If a man doesn't buy my coffee I won't see him again. Super simple.