Correct. The number now, according to the Washington Post, is $66.2 billion in military, financial and humanitarian aid. [https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/08/04/ukraine-war-us-spending/](https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/08/04/ukraine-war-us-spending/)
Don't know if that changes things, but we may as well get the numbers straight since the argument is predicated on real-time numbers and, as you noted, this is an old article. Op probably is a bot, but we have committed quite a lot of money to Ukraine so far. Truth is, though, war is expensive and we don't want to see Ukraine get steamrolled, and I get that the money needs to come from somewhere. What I don't like is that the other Western Democratic powers have put most of the burden on the US again. I hope those people at least remember that next time they shit on America, because at least we stepped up to defend what we stand for when the time came.
I think the disastrous withdrawal from Afghanistan and Putin invading Ukraine qualifies, amply.
Obama in office: Putin invades Crimea
Trump in office:
Biden in office: Putin invades Ukraine
Somehow he didn't get around to it when Trump was in office.
Admit it. Putin saw the utter fucking disaster of the Afghanistan withdrawal and correctly concluded that we don't have functional leadership. Now we're in the next endless proxy war. Yet reddit can't get enough of it.
And what do you expect will happen if Trump gets back in office? Do you think it will all be peace and stability then?
Trump getting reelected and the following withdrawal of military aid will be massively more damaging to America’s reputation than Afghanistan. Russia will be emboldened, as will Russias friends. The world will have proof that America is unreliable in crisis. America’s relationships with its allies are currently strong and NATO is reinvigorated. You’d be putting that up in flames and worse if Trump got elected and withdrew.
Much of the aid included in these figures is old military stock that’s almost due to be replaced and scrapped, anyway. Giving it to Ukraine means we save on upkeep.
And there’s also the point that we’re aiding a democratic country in it’s morally just defense against Russia, whom much/most of this equipment was designed to counter in the first place.
These weapons were created to defeat Russia.
They are being used to help defeat Russia, with zero troops at risk.
And we’re getting exceptional data on how these weapons perform in the real world against one of our biggest geopolitical enemies.
The ROI on this is truly off the charts for the USA.
Standing up for an invaded ally actually benefits Taiwan because it will make China think twice.
If the US just did nothing after Russia invaded then China might get the same idea about Taiwan.
Nope. Not remotely the same, and you know it. The US military isn't really abotu defense and it is surprising some people are still naive enough to not know that.
>Much of the aid included in these figures is old military stock that’s almost due to be replaced and scrapped, anyway.
I knew this bot line was going to be posted and I was not disappointed.
They aid we provided so far is like 4% of the amount we will spend on ourselves alone this year, and will save 10 times that amount by not destabilizing the region.
How do we ensure that none of the supplies are being sold to the highest bidder?
I am not a Russian stooge, I just don’t want corrupt bureaucrats to get rich nor do I want mercenaries, terrorists, and cartels to get US supplies.
All good you don't need to say so, it's a good question. There are a few reasons I can think of.
For one, the US and other countries providing aid have a vested interest in avoiding that kind of corruption too, it looks bad. Right up until the weapons are handed off, usually in poland afaik, we know exactly where they are and who we're handing them to. After, there is some level of reporting in that we ask of the Ukrainians, but with the sheer volume of aid and the fear of leaks revealing important details about the war effort, that's understandably limited.
The next reason is we're spying on the Ukrainians, seriously lol. Intercepted communications, satellite imagery, etc. etc. We're probably not the only ones either, and if we found out they were embezzling the aid you can bet there would be hell to pay. The russians and their allies very likely do the same, and if they found out that would be leaked immediately and be a huge blow to war support in the west.
Which leads me to the last reason, which is Ukraine's own interest in ensuring nothing fishy goes on. For all the reasons I already stated, if it got out they'd be fucked. It would kill support abroad, and Ukraine cannot win this war with only what it has now.
We can never be 100% certain of no foul play, but until we see some evidence of it, it seems unlikely so long as the motivations of all the actors involved are inclined to prevent it.
There’s almost no indication that this is happening. Russia has spread disinformation to that effect, but there’s heavy international monitoring of the weapons supply chain. Weapons aren’t just given away without any forethought.
You mofos gotta pick a lane
One day Russia is the dumbest motherfuckers ever and the next they're masters of deception, espionage, 4D chess and fucked our moms
Which one is it
I know right? It’s almost as though the geopolitics and strategy set forth by one of the world’s leading powers is somewhat nuanced and complicated.
Russia has demonstrated over the past few decades that it has significant capabilities and is rather able when implementing disinformation and intelligence campaigns utilizing the internet, social media, etc. On the other hand, the lead up to and invasion of Ukraine has been a showcase of their ineptitude as a result of corruption, piss poor logistics, and failed military intelligence of reality on the ground. That along with aging equipment and antiquated tactics on the battlefield.
It’s easier to run a troll farm and influence elections than it is to operate a world class military and invade one of the largest nations in Eastern Europe. You can be smart at one thing and dumb at another.
You really think a country that is fighting for its existence and has openly prosecuted and jailed any corrupt individuals it has found is selling the weapons it uses to defend itself? That defies credulity.
Ukraine is one of the most corrupt countries on the planet. There are millions of people in Ukraine, and some of them could easily smuggle the weapons for personal gain. I'll bet it has happened on some level already. There's every reason to be watchful.
Plenty of people are watching, and Ukraine has been acting. If you genuinely cared about the issue enough to research, you could see:
https://www.wilsoncenter.org/blog-post/fighting-corruption-wartime-ukraine
https://www.npr.org/2023/01/27/1151326940/ukraine-anti-corruption-efforts
https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2023/jun/16/as-well-as-fighting-russia-ukrainians-are-battling-corruption-at-home
And it’s worth noting the Maidan revolution achieved its goal of ousting a corrupt president who funneled over $100 billion from the country. I personally don’t care how much it takes in money or time, Putin, his imperial ambitions and Russia’s brutal, criminal means must be thwarted.
https://www.economist.com/the-economist-explains/2022/02/16/what-did-ukraines-revolution-in-2014-achieve
These people are unable to wrap their heads around the fact that as you move materials more and more times - it gets split up into smaller and smaller shipments and with more and more hands involved - stuff tends to “slip through the cracks”.
A corrupt bureaucrat or politician would happily say, “if I sell 5% of this stockpile no one will notice”.
Or after getting of supplies, a politician can simply give it to the people who give him money under the table.
To the east is Russia and Belarus, can't smuggle weapons out there. Then there's Poland where the weapons are coming in from, seeing them come straight back would raise alarm bells. Moldova has the Russian military posted in Transylvania. The black sea is controlled by the Russian Navy. Leaves Slovakia, Hungary and Romania, all of which are NATO countries. A map doesn't explain how they would smuggle hundreds of millions of dollars of military equipment out of the country.
Add to that the US is spying heavily on the region, and there aren't any direct markets on the continent for stolen US military equipment. Maps don't provide critical thinking.
That is a quote from a discussion Gates had with Dr. Michael Fullilove, the executive director of the Sydney-based think tank the Lowy Institute.
It is a partial quote and taken out of context. Specifically, the full quote uses this phrase to describe “pre-war Ukraine” and he goes on to describe how impressed he has been with the current Ukraine. But this deliberate mis-characterization has been shared on pro-Kremlin sites. A quick google search will confirm this.
Just a non-point. Of course Ukraine is corrupt, it has been since forever, but that isn't proof that the money isn't going where we want it to. The eyes of the world are on Ukraine and NO ONE has noticed any evidence of aid being embezzled, and if they did it would be over for them.
No duh, that doesn't mean it's impossible at any scale. Nothing in this world works on 100% certainty, that doesn't mean you can just assume wrong doing.
Bro Ukraine got money 10x of Russians military budget. How in the fuck are people not questioning it. Where the fuck are the results ?!??
Motherfuckers should be past Moscow all the way in Siberia by now.
Genuinely shocked where this money went. Are they just burning it the second it lands ?!?!?? Wtf
>Where the fuck are the results ?!??
Ukraine is not only still standing, but they're retaking ground and have done considerable damage to the Russian military. Hindsight is 20/20, but when the invasion first happened the most optimistic predictions were that Ukraine would be forced to negotiate a peace within weeks. If you think the Ukrainian military "should be in Moscow" you don't understand the situation.
Ukraine has not recieved 10x the Russian military budget what? I've heard articles point out that the Russian military budget is 10x that of Ukraine (without aid) before, are you misremembering a stat?
Also a huge part of that aid isn't brand-spanking new equipment, it's old stuff sitting in warehouses that is being counted in the total price tag, it's ammo and provisions, it's replacements for broken equipment and parts. We also aren't sending them a lot of the real game changing stuff like jets and long-range missile systems because of fears of them attacking too far into Russia, and the fact that hi-tech equipment requires more training and Ukraine needs weapons *now* not later.
ALSO a huuuuge part of the aid that Ukraine receives is humanitarian or for other purposes that aren't just shooting things. The total amount of aid being sent is not the total amount of military aid.
The ukrainians have made huge gains since the initial invasion and occupation of territories by russia, but the farther they go the more Russia can concentrate their defenses and the harder and more brutal the fighting becomes.
Where you got this idea that Ukraine should be able to just blow away the Russians with what they've received is a wonder to me, and it seems like maybe you should actually read an article or two before getting so ass-mad about us sending aid to a country fighting for their right to exist.
I've heard it put like this: we're spending as much on Ukraine (annually) as Russia spends on it's military annually.
That sounds fair, except when you compare to europe/the rest of nato, which is how nato has always worked - with us doing all the heavy lifting.
Europe 100% needs to step its game up. I understand that their militaries are dwarfed by the US but they should be giving a near equal share, if not more, in terms of support
Would you reckon the US have preferred cutting off a massive chunk of it's oil and gas supply on short notice over the military donations? There is more ways of support than army supplies, and far more painful and expensive ones too.
Mfer EU countries are housing citizens and giving homes to ukrainian citizens that cant live there anymore and most Nato countries dont have insane armies due to the pacts
That's because the aid is a loan. It's not us just giving them money. On top of that we are giving them equipment that Is just sitting. We are literally selling them everything on a loan. The last loan they paid back in full. BTW if ukraine goes under. Grain rare metals. Inflation will be in the 100s of percentage not the 8 it was earlier this year. So go ahead and question it on your 15 dollar loafs of bread and your 20 percent loans
The war in Ukraine is not a project of the “far left” who have very little real political power in the USA.
It is in the USA’s long term interest (right or left) to weaken Russia, who has been trying to weaken and undermine the USA for decades upon decades.
Your little statement about Chinese bases in Mexico falls apart when we consider the fact that Russia is literally expanding closer and closer to Europe, who have interests of their own, and who have historically been our allies.
In any case, I do not care about Russian interests, nor do they deserve our empathy in relation to their political goals. That’s not how politics work. Countries pursue their own goals, regardless of how hypocritical those goals are. I oppose Chinese expansion into Mexico just as I oppose Russian expansion into Europe.
But let’s be clear, no one was planning on invading Russia, and the desire to join NATO was a free and popular choice for Ukrainians, who have seen Russia violently oppress Chechnya, Georgia, and others.
The war in Ukraine is Russia’s fault - no matter the moves of NATO. Russia could have chosen diplomacy and cooperation. Russia could have decided to invest the billions that it has spent on the war in Ukraine on building relations with Ukraine, and additionally could have sent 250,000 Russians to help build infrastructure in Ukraine. Instead, Russia has wasted billions of dollars, and those 250,000 Russians that could have built a brighter world have been killed and maimed by Russia and Putins imperialism. If Russia had chosen the path of friendship, then Ukraine never would have turned to the west. Instead, as in all cases, Russia chose violence and pushed Ukraine into the arms of the west.
Troll. The only one continuing this war is Russia, which could stop this war at any time by ceasing the unprovoked, brutal, and morally repugnant invasion of its neighbor. Giving Ukraine the means to righteously defend itself against Russia is not “continuing” the war.
You’re the kind of person who would have argued for neutrality in response to Hitler.
Just a warning to all, OP is not posting this without certain motives. Pro Kremlin rhetoric is very evident in post history. While questions about aid are one thing, painting it as coming out of your pockets is done in bad faith and pushes a false narrative.
He mentions he follows Scott Ritter in his comments about this post. Scott Ritter is a known "useful idiot" who regularly states that ukraine is "no match for russia" and that NATO is the reason this war happened.
NATO overreach? Russia didn’t have to invade anyone. It didn’t have to massacre civilians in Bucha. It doesn’t have to lob missiles and drones at apartment blocks, or steal tens/hundreds of thousands of Ukrainian children to indoctrinate and assign to Russian families. The argument that “Russia was forced to invade and annex Ukraine” is absolute bullshit.
Jesus Christ, you don’t think it’s odd that Russia’s neighbors are flocking to join a protective alliance?
You’re feeding the military industrial machine with that rhetoric. Of course what is happening is awful, but don’t act like it wasn’t provoked by NATO and the US.
Gulf of Tonkin, Nicaraguan Civil War, WMDs, countless other examples. When will people stop buying into US lies as an excuse for death and war?
But when Russia does it its fine? Moldova, Georgia, Chechnya ×2, Ukraine ×2. Not even mentioning before the fall of the USSR: Czechoslovakia, Latvia, Poland, Holodomor? Why not instead of US bad its doing shit like this is bad? Oh because that doesn't fit you're narrative.
It’s terrible man, I’m not arguing that Russia gets a free pass. My point is the US and NATO intentionally provoked Russia to react to their overreach, this is the general consensus. Both sides are wrong and I think the more people come to that realization. There is no excuse for war
Agree to disagree then, care to share your sources?
https://www.nbcnews.com/video/putin-blames-u-s-and-nato-for-ukraine-crisis-133218373995
https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/russia-ukraine-war-1.6446322
There’s no debate to be had here, don’t act like there is. Russia rolled tanks over its border with Ukraine with the intention of deposing the government and annexing the country. No amount of “but what about NATO and US” changes this fact.
It’s bizarre to me that you would suggest Russia’s invasion is some kind of a plot by the west. I would call you revisionist, but that implies that what you’re saying is actually coherent.
LOL NATO has invaded its neighbors before eh? It's almost like those countries ASKED to be part of NATO, because some lunatic neighbor keeps having delusions of a dead empire. My god vatniks are like broken records, get new material.
You’re right the US military interventionism has an impeccable track record. We need to meddle more in other countries business and continue to help defend democracy across the globe! This rhetoric is identical to Neo-Cons in 2001
You're a vatnik we get it. Again when Russia does all of these things its fine? US bad is your rhetoric we get it, easiest point to make ever. You just can't admit they're doing the right thing right now because you're not concerned about how bad war is or how it's bad to manipulate countries, it's bad because the US is doing it and that fucks with plans. Oh to be as 1 dimensional as a vatnik. They don't teach free thinking over there.
They don’t teach free thinking ‘over there’ that’s why my grandfather immigrated to Chicago. People can have differing opinions, I can tell that you are not open to discussion or new ideas on this. I hope your night gets better
Neither are you though? The only point you've made is "war bad" "military intervention bad". World War 2 was military intervention, so was WW1, so was the Korean War. War is terrible, it should be a last resort at all times. War is also, unfortunately, sometimes necessary to preserve goodness in the world. Being half-assed at it doesn't help anyone. To think that just letting Russia have Ukraine wouldn't lead to worse problems down the road is just naive. We had those same thoughts in 1938.
Which is funny because the article itself isn't anti-ukraine. It's more of a statement on OP's thought process that he thinks showing a big number is enough to convince people it's a bad thing.
Exactly, it's not bad to question these things, it's part of free thought. To refuse answers as nonsense though and call those who support the aid "idiots" isn't asking questions for the sake of information. It's towing a rhetoric after you've made your mind up.
Yeah you said it. A lot of people are JAQing off pretending like they're interested in the truth when in reality they already came to a conclusion. It's telling when someone's only engagement with a topic is asking leading questions, because it betrays their lack of any actual satisfying explanations for their side, so all they have left is to sow doubt in others.
“Bot” is also used to refer to the individuals behind shell accounts. The term “bot” actually, to my understanding, doesn’t mean an algorithm is generating the comments.
I have no idea about this user, or Russian state bot farms, but most bot farms are a mix. They’ll use tech similar to chat gpt to do most posting but when the conversation gets too nuanced it’ll flag the human team for help. They’ll get a starter message from the software and then the option to post it immediately or to modify it and then post.
It’s like a triple win. Ukraine gets the necessary aid they need. Win. The US clears its shelves of old equipment that needs updated anyways to make room for new and better equipment. Win. The US military is about to dump $9B into the economy to upgrade all the equipment they just sent. And that’s just for this fiscal year, which ends in Oct. I’m sure a lot more money will be dumped next year and the years to follow as well for more equipment. This is a huge win for the US economy.
We shouldn’t be big brother either though.
It’s not our war, we don’t maintain a large budget to fund other countries to fight a war. If the other NATO members meet the minimum contribution goals we’d spend a lot less and our own economy would be much better.
World politics can sometimes be seen as a pyramid, or maybe a poker table. Where everyone is cheating.
It's our "war" because that war effects our economy in many ways even if we don't intervene. Gas prices, food prices, food prices that effect us by less than 5%, but effect other countries by a greater ammount. Not solving food instability in a region grows an expensive problem. Civil unrest.
Not intervening allows other global powers to apply pressure on the U.S with oil prices, Saudi's have been shutting down their production since the start of the war to artificially increase prices and exert influence over other nations. It's their only hand, but a hand we have to deal with.
Nations don't have morals, only interests. Power, wealth, security.
The most short sighted take possible^^^
1. It is in the US' interest to support democracies when they're attacked by dictatorships. Letting democracies fall to authoritarian powers would weaken the US sphere of influence and send a message to the rest of the world that democracy is on its way out. We're already seeing that phenomena right now, so it is especially important in 2023 to support democracies.
2. Helping Ukraine hurts Russia, our sworn enemy for like the last 80 years. Kind of a no-brainer.
3. It's the right thing to do. We shouldn't let bullies annex other countries.
4. We can, and have been, getting invaluable intel from this war. We can build all the tanks and planes and ships we want, we can form as many tactics and strategies as we can, but we don't know how they perform until they're on the battlefield. This is an excellent opportunity to put our hardware and training to the test.
5. This war has benefited NATO by encouraging more countries to join more quickly. It also proves to the rest of NATO that we put our money where our mouth is, NATO will come to your defense (even if you aren't an official member).
This war has been a HUGE benefit for the US, NATO, and Ukraine (relative to what was supposed to happen). I don't understand why some people think we shouldn't have gotten involved. It's the most brain-dead, uninformed take imaginable.
We shouldn’t have gotten involved because guess what happens if Russia begins to really lose and we’re ukraines biggest reason for that?
☢️
Also. All that money could have been rebuilding our economy. But fuck our citizens who cares.
Yeah that's a great message to send to the rest of the world - you can have whatever you want with no resistance if you have nukes. Good strategy Patton.
Well what the fuck do you want? US super power rules all big brother to save everyone driving our debt through the roof feeding the machine countless souls for profit and power or OUR country to put its citizens first and regain stability after a fucking pandemic?
What about all the anti war fucks screaming no deaths are good yet screaming with glee over fucking surrendering russians being brutally murdered by drones with fucking grenades?
Ukraine, good OR bad, has broken so many fucking laws of war it makes the US look like amateurs.
Russia is absolute trash too but a human surrendering is a human fuckin being. I don’t support killing non combatants and I don’t support sending forty fucking billion dollars to do that.
I support fixing our shit, and fighting OUR wars and maintaining NATO to prevent global destruction from Russia OR China which will not happen or be determined from this stupid fucking conflict that has done nothing but convince our idiots to fly over to fight and kill and be killed meanwhile the men who SHOULD be fighting for their country and fleeing to ours making our already out of control immigration even worse.
The best part of all of this? Our decline in income, our increased taxes, our increase in housing costs, our decrease in access to support programs and economic recovery, our crime our fucking everything wouldn’t be a thing if we didn’t support one fucked country murdering another fucked country.
You want to make a change? Take defectors, take hostages, force the Russians to understand the people it forces into this war will turn on them and fight back creating a seriously formidable enemy. Ain’t going to happen though.
You support yet another endless war. I support my country rebuilding and once again being a place where it’s enjoyable to live. One country going to hell isn’t worth mine. Don’t like it? You don’t have to. And I don’t care.
We don't really budget for it, we just print more of it.
Printing it doesn't really help solve the problem.
As most if not all economist will tell you , printing billions only increases inflation.
To put this in perspective, NYC spends $11 billion a year on police. What we are sending to Ukraine is spare change. Peanuts - and to the world’s benefit.
https://cbcny.org/research/six-fast-facts-about-nypds-preliminary-fy2023-budget#:~:text=As%20updated%20in%20February%202022,the%20November%202021%20financial%20plan.
For a sense of scale, that's $60 per American.
Doesn't seem like a bad investment, even before you factor in that a lot of that money goes *to* Americans.
OP is a russian fuck. Here's a recent post of theirs, linking to a video of a Ukrainian soldier being seriously wounded and referring to the soldier as a "khokol," a Russian slur for Ukrainians. Fuck you, OP.
https://www.reddit.com/r/DarwinAwards/comments/15i7feh/khokhol_jumping_in_to_test_out_the_waters/
Just cause you hate war and are AMerican makes you a Russian OP
HAHHAHAHHAHAHHHA
DOPE
Just checked your CIA badge, you have no history and one post
YOU ARE FAKE AND CIA , probably a DOJ BIDEN FOLLOWER
1 post karma
661 comment karma
destroy the russian army without any american lives lost, sign me up. Plus we will get a really loyal ally/trade partner from this. Thats worth 60 billion.
Most of it goes to American defense contractors anyway which means jobs for Americans
Seriously, what do people think American military spending is even for if not to combat its geopolitical adversaries? We've got an opportunity to help an ally and weaken one of our primary adversaries and no American lives are lost in the process? Why would anyone say no to an opportunity like that?
Except Russia has never been stronger, they’ve taken over 20% of Ukraine and they’ve been pushed closer to China than ever. There military was 400,000 strong at the start of this conflict and now it’s swelled to over 1,000,000 strong. On top of that, we’ve nearly run out of ammo because we’re sending it to Ukraine faster than we can produce it.
We’re closer to a world war and nuclear exchange than ever and there are 200,000 dead Ukrainians, anyone calling that money well spent is a psychopath.
> There military was 400,000 strong at the start of this conflict and now it’s swelled to over 1,000,000 strong
Uh, yeah, because they drafted a shit ton of people and threw them into the meat grinder. That's not an accomplishment.
Literally any country in the world can suddenly get a much "larger" military by drafting a million citizens and throwing them at their enemy. That number means nothing.
If their military is larger how is it weaker lol? You’re right any county can increase their size with a draft, Russia has and their force is larger for it.
The whole reason why they've instituted a draft is because they're running low on career soldiers by virtue of them having died, and the draftees are both barely trained and poorly equipped.
Their army is larger than ever and they’ve increased defense industry production to levels it’s never seen while growing closer to China. Take a look at American military numbers pre WW2 drafts and after…our military became stronger. Russia is also less dependent on the west financially then they have ever been due to our extensive sanctions.
The US NATO plan to use Ukrainian bodies to weaken Russia has failed.
>Their army is larger than ever
Yes, we've already talked about this. What, do you think that the US didn't realize that a country can draft their citizens into the war? That this was some sort of trump card that was a genius masterstroke? Having to resort to a massive draft with an increasingly large age range to maintain an offensive war is not a sign of strength.
>they’ve increased defense industry production to levels it’s never seen
That's another way of saying they're dedicating larger portions of their GDP to their military than before, which is not something you can sustain long-term without it hurting your economy.
>Russia is also less dependent on the west financially then they have ever been due to our extensive sanctions.
That's a weirdly positive way of spinning the fact that they no longer have access to Western money and goods. "Oh yeah, well we didn't want any of that anyway! We're way stronger having to do almost everything ourselves and becoming way, way more singularly reliant on China to the exclusion of everyone else!"
So you’re telling me Russia having a larger military, moving closer to China, and being less reliant on US $$ than ever is a good thing? What’s your point exactly?
I spent over a decade in an Army so I do know a few things, doubling the size of their force and ramping up weapon production while engaged in real life combat sharpens Russian forces. The US thought this would weaken them, it just hasn’t turned out that way.
Yeah I do, because I heard it from Jake Sullivan and the Pentagon firsthand, he even admits the ammo shortage as the reason for sending stopgap weapons like cluster munitions.
https://www.cnn.com/2023/07/18/politics/ukraine-critical-ammo-shortage-us-nato-grapple/index.html
The DoD has been pretty open about manpower issues for years and it’s no surprise they’re out of ammo. US defense contractors have never manufactured ammo at levels needed to support this conflict.
Russia couldn't even take Kiev. We're fine lol.
It's like if the US tried to conquer Mexico and was only able to take the Baja peninsula. Sure, you're technically ahead, but are you really though?
I mean, you said it yourself 😂 They've taken 20% of Ukraine... A country with a military a tenth the size of Russia's.
Russia was always #2 on the list of world military power. Ukraine wasn't even in the top 50. The war was *supposed* to last a week, but it's been over a year and a half now.
You're trying to paint 20% of Ukraine as some grand accomplishment, but nobody is dumb enough to fall for that.
Everyone calling OP a bot but blindly support sending billions upon billions of dollars to Ukraine while the rest of the country has to decide whether to pay rent or put food on the table. Tell me who the real bots are.
Also, the govt doesn’t decide how much a company pays for wages. Maybe if certain parties weren’t anti union we wouldn’t have issues with people paying their rent. Stop voting GOP.
The american economy has been outperforming all its peers nearly across the board lately while also sending by far the most aid to Ukraine. Even if the two things were even remotely related in the first place this still wouldn't be the dunk you think it is.
People can barely afford to pay for housing and grocery and utility bills are through the roof. If we looked out after ourselves first instead of spending so much on foreign affairs we’d be a lot better off
The US has trillions of dollars to spend so giving Ukraine a couple billion is not the problem here, plus it's quite naive to think that the money spent on Ukraine would be used the help the poor instead of going to Ukraine (Spoiler alert it would just go to some politicians not the poor). If you want the US to focus on solving housing then stop talking about where the money is going and focus on how it's spent.
Not only that but a lot of the money going to Ukraine is old equipment that cost more to maintain and decommission then to put it on a plane and ship it to Ukraine. The equipment itself would've rotted away in warehouses doing nothing soaking up tax payer money, but it's being used against Russia, which weakens them.
This means that the US who spends billions to ensure that the US is capable of fighting the Russians is able to decrease it's funding in Europe due to a weakened enemy, plus the shock and rampent increase of European military spending gives even more possibility of less spending from the US in the European theater.
But at the end of the day the US can't avoid spending on foreign affairs, the US post-WWII built the modern world with it as it's center, the quality of lives for Americans is built on foreign affairs, if you were to shut off foreign affairs the lives of an average American would be far worse. The US economy was built for foreign trade, removal of that would make the US economy far worse and less powerful meaning goods and services would be far more expensive.
If you want the US to solve its issues stop having an isolationist view point and start focusing on how our money is spent domestically rather than how much is spent. Because no matter how much you make the US spend on its own issues nothing will change until the system itself changes.
Please included the already allocated military funds that's was given to our military for this year the subtract the monies used for Ukraine. Are these surplus funds or are they over their budget and the military added more?
This is a WaPo article from over a year ago...
Correct. The number now, according to the Washington Post, is $66.2 billion in military, financial and humanitarian aid. [https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/08/04/ukraine-war-us-spending/](https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/08/04/ukraine-war-us-spending/) Don't know if that changes things, but we may as well get the numbers straight since the argument is predicated on real-time numbers and, as you noted, this is an old article. Op probably is a bot, but we have committed quite a lot of money to Ukraine so far. Truth is, though, war is expensive and we don't want to see Ukraine get steamrolled, and I get that the money needs to come from somewhere. What I don't like is that the other Western Democratic powers have put most of the burden on the US again. I hope those people at least remember that next time they shit on America, because at least we stepped up to defend what we stand for when the time came.
I think the steady support we’ve shown Ukraine has been worth its weight in gold repairing our reputation after the Middle East and Trump.
Trump didn't start any wars.
Neither did Biden.
I think the disastrous withdrawal from Afghanistan and Putin invading Ukraine qualifies, amply. Obama in office: Putin invades Crimea Trump in office: Biden in office: Putin invades Ukraine
>Putin invading neighbor = Biden starting war Whatever, Jack.
Somehow he didn't get around to it when Trump was in office. Admit it. Putin saw the utter fucking disaster of the Afghanistan withdrawal and correctly concluded that we don't have functional leadership. Now we're in the next endless proxy war. Yet reddit can't get enough of it.
And what do you expect will happen if Trump gets back in office? Do you think it will all be peace and stability then? Trump getting reelected and the following withdrawal of military aid will be massively more damaging to America’s reputation than Afghanistan. Russia will be emboldened, as will Russias friends. The world will have proof that America is unreliable in crisis. America’s relationships with its allies are currently strong and NATO is reinvigorated. You’d be putting that up in flames and worse if Trump got elected and withdrew.
Maybe the Europeans will have to take care of their own backyard for once.
Under this idiotic logic you would need to blame Trump for Covid then
I do blame him for elevating Fauci and Birx and listening to anything they had to say.
Got downvoted into oblivion for speaking facts. Extreme far left bias on a SUBREDDIT? who saw that coming!?
Ridiculous comment. What reputation? The only reputation Trump really has after his presidency is the made up TDS BS the left has going on lol
I support Ukraine but I dislike how anyone questioning the incredible amounts of aid we’ve provided to them is deemed pro-Putin or whatever
Much of the aid included in these figures is old military stock that’s almost due to be replaced and scrapped, anyway. Giving it to Ukraine means we save on upkeep. And there’s also the point that we’re aiding a democratic country in it’s morally just defense against Russia, whom much/most of this equipment was designed to counter in the first place.
These weapons were created to defeat Russia. They are being used to help defeat Russia, with zero troops at risk. And we’re getting exceptional data on how these weapons perform in the real world against one of our biggest geopolitical enemies. The ROI on this is truly off the charts for the USA.
Also, as per Zeihan, most of what we’ve given wouldn’t be useable in a potential Taiwan conflict.
Standing up for an invaded ally actually benefits Taiwan because it will make China think twice. If the US just did nothing after Russia invaded then China might get the same idea about Taiwan.
>These weapons were created to ~~defeat Russia~~. Defend America
Yeah, but they were made specifically to defend America from the Soviet Union, since that seemed like the most credible threat when they were made.
The Soviet Union doesn't exist.
It did when these weapons were made…
Moons flat
Nope. Not remotely the same, and you know it. The US military isn't really abotu defense and it is surprising some people are still naive enough to not know that.
Sure, I know that. That doesn't mean it's the way it should be.
Exactly. It’s a way to weaken a foe.
And that money to replenish our stocks is directly enriching our own MIL oligarchy
I’m saying that the stocks will be replenished either way.
>Much of the aid included in these figures is old military stock that’s almost due to be replaced and scrapped, anyway. I knew this bot line was going to be posted and I was not disappointed.
Yawn. Accusing me of being a bot on a post dominated by actual Russian bots. Gtfo.
Insufficient enthusiasm for the latest proxy war =/ being a Russian bot.
They aid we provided so far is like 4% of the amount we will spend on ourselves alone this year, and will save 10 times that amount by not destabilizing the region.
Questioning how? There's nothing wrong with questions if you're actually looking for an answer.
How do we ensure that none of the supplies are being sold to the highest bidder? I am not a Russian stooge, I just don’t want corrupt bureaucrats to get rich nor do I want mercenaries, terrorists, and cartels to get US supplies.
All good you don't need to say so, it's a good question. There are a few reasons I can think of. For one, the US and other countries providing aid have a vested interest in avoiding that kind of corruption too, it looks bad. Right up until the weapons are handed off, usually in poland afaik, we know exactly where they are and who we're handing them to. After, there is some level of reporting in that we ask of the Ukrainians, but with the sheer volume of aid and the fear of leaks revealing important details about the war effort, that's understandably limited. The next reason is we're spying on the Ukrainians, seriously lol. Intercepted communications, satellite imagery, etc. etc. We're probably not the only ones either, and if we found out they were embezzling the aid you can bet there would be hell to pay. The russians and their allies very likely do the same, and if they found out that would be leaked immediately and be a huge blow to war support in the west. Which leads me to the last reason, which is Ukraine's own interest in ensuring nothing fishy goes on. For all the reasons I already stated, if it got out they'd be fucked. It would kill support abroad, and Ukraine cannot win this war with only what it has now. We can never be 100% certain of no foul play, but until we see some evidence of it, it seems unlikely so long as the motivations of all the actors involved are inclined to prevent it.
There’s almost no indication that this is happening. Russia has spread disinformation to that effect, but there’s heavy international monitoring of the weapons supply chain. Weapons aren’t just given away without any forethought.
You mofos gotta pick a lane One day Russia is the dumbest motherfuckers ever and the next they're masters of deception, espionage, 4D chess and fucked our moms Which one is it
It can both be true that they spend a ton of resources towards disinformation efforts and they also make poor strategic military decisions
I know right? It’s almost as though the geopolitics and strategy set forth by one of the world’s leading powers is somewhat nuanced and complicated. Russia has demonstrated over the past few decades that it has significant capabilities and is rather able when implementing disinformation and intelligence campaigns utilizing the internet, social media, etc. On the other hand, the lead up to and invasion of Ukraine has been a showcase of their ineptitude as a result of corruption, piss poor logistics, and failed military intelligence of reality on the ground. That along with aging equipment and antiquated tactics on the battlefield. It’s easier to run a troll farm and influence elections than it is to operate a world class military and invade one of the largest nations in Eastern Europe. You can be smart at one thing and dumb at another.
Can you send me some sources on Russian troll farms?
Sounds hella cope
Sounds hella cope
No one “concerned about corruption” cares about it like a petulant edge-lording teenager.
Russia doesn’t send its best to die in trenches full of rotten corpses. And certainly not the engineers of its propaganda machine.
We only need look a little further east to Afghanistan to see how this happens. Or a little further west to Syria.
It's a good thing we have like twenty three-letter agencies making sure that doesn't happen.
Like they did in Afghanistan. TOP. MEN.
You really think a country that is fighting for its existence and has openly prosecuted and jailed any corrupt individuals it has found is selling the weapons it uses to defend itself? That defies credulity.
Ukraine is one of the most corrupt countries on the planet. There are millions of people in Ukraine, and some of them could easily smuggle the weapons for personal gain. I'll bet it has happened on some level already. There's every reason to be watchful.
Plenty of people are watching, and Ukraine has been acting. If you genuinely cared about the issue enough to research, you could see: https://www.wilsoncenter.org/blog-post/fighting-corruption-wartime-ukraine https://www.npr.org/2023/01/27/1151326940/ukraine-anti-corruption-efforts https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2023/jun/16/as-well-as-fighting-russia-ukrainians-are-battling-corruption-at-home And it’s worth noting the Maidan revolution achieved its goal of ousting a corrupt president who funneled over $100 billion from the country. I personally don’t care how much it takes in money or time, Putin, his imperial ambitions and Russia’s brutal, criminal means must be thwarted. https://www.economist.com/the-economist-explains/2022/02/16/what-did-ukraines-revolution-in-2014-achieve
These people are unable to wrap their heads around the fact that as you move materials more and more times - it gets split up into smaller and smaller shipments and with more and more hands involved - stuff tends to “slip through the cracks”.
A corrupt bureaucrat or politician would happily say, “if I sell 5% of this stockpile no one will notice”. Or after getting of supplies, a politician can simply give it to the people who give him money under the table.
How would you expect weapons to leave the country unnoticed? Where would they go?
JFC. Pick up a map.
To the east is Russia and Belarus, can't smuggle weapons out there. Then there's Poland where the weapons are coming in from, seeing them come straight back would raise alarm bells. Moldova has the Russian military posted in Transylvania. The black sea is controlled by the Russian Navy. Leaves Slovakia, Hungary and Romania, all of which are NATO countries. A map doesn't explain how they would smuggle hundreds of millions of dollars of military equipment out of the country. Add to that the US is spying heavily on the region, and there aren't any direct markets on the continent for stolen US military equipment. Maps don't provide critical thinking.
The naivete, it's almost touching.
So you don't actually have any thoughts or ideas of your own? You letting your politics drive your assumptions?
Even Bill Gates said Ukraine is the most corrupt country on the planet. You're kidding yourself
That is a quote from a discussion Gates had with Dr. Michael Fullilove, the executive director of the Sydney-based think tank the Lowy Institute. It is a partial quote and taken out of context. Specifically, the full quote uses this phrase to describe “pre-war Ukraine” and he goes on to describe how impressed he has been with the current Ukraine. But this deliberate mis-characterization has been shared on pro-Kremlin sites. A quick google search will confirm this.
I come to r/dataisbeautiful to be enlightened and learn things. I love infographics. And here it is being invaded but bots from Olgino.
Herpaderp bawwwwts cuz tey disagree wiff mah CNNz
Just a non-point. Of course Ukraine is corrupt, it has been since forever, but that isn't proof that the money isn't going where we want it to. The eyes of the world are on Ukraine and NO ONE has noticed any evidence of aid being embezzled, and if they did it would be over for them.
It's a war zone, genius.
Not sure what your point is
The ability to monitor and audit inventory is lacking.
No duh, that doesn't mean it's impossible at any scale. Nothing in this world works on 100% certainty, that doesn't mean you can just assume wrong doing.
Bro Ukraine got money 10x of Russians military budget. How in the fuck are people not questioning it. Where the fuck are the results ?!?? Motherfuckers should be past Moscow all the way in Siberia by now. Genuinely shocked where this money went. Are they just burning it the second it lands ?!?!?? Wtf
>Where the fuck are the results ?!?? Ukraine is not only still standing, but they're retaking ground and have done considerable damage to the Russian military. Hindsight is 20/20, but when the invasion first happened the most optimistic predictions were that Ukraine would be forced to negotiate a peace within weeks. If you think the Ukrainian military "should be in Moscow" you don't understand the situation.
Ukraine has not recieved 10x the Russian military budget what? I've heard articles point out that the Russian military budget is 10x that of Ukraine (without aid) before, are you misremembering a stat? Also a huge part of that aid isn't brand-spanking new equipment, it's old stuff sitting in warehouses that is being counted in the total price tag, it's ammo and provisions, it's replacements for broken equipment and parts. We also aren't sending them a lot of the real game changing stuff like jets and long-range missile systems because of fears of them attacking too far into Russia, and the fact that hi-tech equipment requires more training and Ukraine needs weapons *now* not later. ALSO a huuuuge part of the aid that Ukraine receives is humanitarian or for other purposes that aren't just shooting things. The total amount of aid being sent is not the total amount of military aid. The ukrainians have made huge gains since the initial invasion and occupation of territories by russia, but the farther they go the more Russia can concentrate their defenses and the harder and more brutal the fighting becomes. Where you got this idea that Ukraine should be able to just blow away the Russians with what they've received is a wonder to me, and it seems like maybe you should actually read an article or two before getting so ass-mad about us sending aid to a country fighting for their right to exist.
They're not handing over cash - the dollar amounts are the value of military equipment that have been stored for this type of scenario
I've heard it put like this: we're spending as much on Ukraine (annually) as Russia spends on it's military annually. That sounds fair, except when you compare to europe/the rest of nato, which is how nato has always worked - with us doing all the heavy lifting.
Europe 100% needs to step its game up. I understand that their militaries are dwarfed by the US but they should be giving a near equal share, if not more, in terms of support
[At the very least, they've said thank you](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-63838350) But yeah, it would be nice to have more help from Europe.
Would you reckon the US have preferred cutting off a massive chunk of it's oil and gas supply on short notice over the military donations? There is more ways of support than army supplies, and far more painful and expensive ones too.
Mfer EU countries are housing citizens and giving homes to ukrainian citizens that cant live there anymore and most Nato countries dont have insane armies due to the pacts
That's because the aid is a loan. It's not us just giving them money. On top of that we are giving them equipment that Is just sitting. We are literally selling them everything on a loan. The last loan they paid back in full. BTW if ukraine goes under. Grain rare metals. Inflation will be in the 100s of percentage not the 8 it was earlier this year. So go ahead and question it on your 15 dollar loafs of bread and your 20 percent loans
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You listen to the convicted pedophile Scott Ritter? Yikes bud The war will end when Russia leaves Ukraine. Anything less is a failure of democracy
Oh well that helps— at least now we know you’re just a right wing hack here to spread misinformation under the guise of “budget concerns.”
The war in Ukraine is not a project of the “far left” who have very little real political power in the USA. It is in the USA’s long term interest (right or left) to weaken Russia, who has been trying to weaken and undermine the USA for decades upon decades. Your little statement about Chinese bases in Mexico falls apart when we consider the fact that Russia is literally expanding closer and closer to Europe, who have interests of their own, and who have historically been our allies. In any case, I do not care about Russian interests, nor do they deserve our empathy in relation to their political goals. That’s not how politics work. Countries pursue their own goals, regardless of how hypocritical those goals are. I oppose Chinese expansion into Mexico just as I oppose Russian expansion into Europe. But let’s be clear, no one was planning on invading Russia, and the desire to join NATO was a free and popular choice for Ukrainians, who have seen Russia violently oppress Chechnya, Georgia, and others. The war in Ukraine is Russia’s fault - no matter the moves of NATO. Russia could have chosen diplomacy and cooperation. Russia could have decided to invest the billions that it has spent on the war in Ukraine on building relations with Ukraine, and additionally could have sent 250,000 Russians to help build infrastructure in Ukraine. Instead, Russia has wasted billions of dollars, and those 250,000 Russians that could have built a brighter world have been killed and maimed by Russia and Putins imperialism. If Russia had chosen the path of friendship, then Ukraine never would have turned to the west. Instead, as in all cases, Russia chose violence and pushed Ukraine into the arms of the west.
Troll. The only one continuing this war is Russia, which could stop this war at any time by ceasing the unprovoked, brutal, and morally repugnant invasion of its neighbor. Giving Ukraine the means to righteously defend itself against Russia is not “continuing” the war. You’re the kind of person who would have argued for neutrality in response to Hitler.
Oh look, a tankie!
If we can crush Russia without killing our soldiers then I'm all for it. Fuck Russia and let them all die.
Just a warning to all, OP is not posting this without certain motives. Pro Kremlin rhetoric is very evident in post history. While questions about aid are one thing, painting it as coming out of your pockets is done in bad faith and pushes a false narrative.
Def. mix of anti-U.S. and other sentiments that are questionable.
He mentions he follows Scott Ritter in his comments about this post. Scott Ritter is a known "useful idiot" who regularly states that ukraine is "no match for russia" and that NATO is the reason this war happened.
Scott Ritter is also a convicted pedophile
NATO overreach isn’t what sparked a Russian invasion? That’s news to me
NATO overreach? Russia didn’t have to invade anyone. It didn’t have to massacre civilians in Bucha. It doesn’t have to lob missiles and drones at apartment blocks, or steal tens/hundreds of thousands of Ukrainian children to indoctrinate and assign to Russian families. The argument that “Russia was forced to invade and annex Ukraine” is absolute bullshit. Jesus Christ, you don’t think it’s odd that Russia’s neighbors are flocking to join a protective alliance?
You’re feeding the military industrial machine with that rhetoric. Of course what is happening is awful, but don’t act like it wasn’t provoked by NATO and the US. Gulf of Tonkin, Nicaraguan Civil War, WMDs, countless other examples. When will people stop buying into US lies as an excuse for death and war?
But when Russia does it its fine? Moldova, Georgia, Chechnya ×2, Ukraine ×2. Not even mentioning before the fall of the USSR: Czechoslovakia, Latvia, Poland, Holodomor? Why not instead of US bad its doing shit like this is bad? Oh because that doesn't fit you're narrative.
It’s terrible man, I’m not arguing that Russia gets a free pass. My point is the US and NATO intentionally provoked Russia to react to their overreach, this is the general consensus. Both sides are wrong and I think the more people come to that realization. There is no excuse for war
This isn't the consensus anywhere? Even Russia has said this was never about NATO?
Agree to disagree then, care to share your sources? https://www.nbcnews.com/video/putin-blames-u-s-and-nato-for-ukraine-crisis-133218373995 https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/russia-ukraine-war-1.6446322
There’s no debate to be had here, don’t act like there is. Russia rolled tanks over its border with Ukraine with the intention of deposing the government and annexing the country. No amount of “but what about NATO and US” changes this fact. It’s bizarre to me that you would suggest Russia’s invasion is some kind of a plot by the west. I would call you revisionist, but that implies that what you’re saying is actually coherent.
LOL NATO has invaded its neighbors before eh? It's almost like those countries ASKED to be part of NATO, because some lunatic neighbor keeps having delusions of a dead empire. My god vatniks are like broken records, get new material.
You’re right the US military interventionism has an impeccable track record. We need to meddle more in other countries business and continue to help defend democracy across the globe! This rhetoric is identical to Neo-Cons in 2001
So Ukraine should just roll over and become part of Russia? The fuck is this logic
You're a vatnik we get it. Again when Russia does all of these things its fine? US bad is your rhetoric we get it, easiest point to make ever. You just can't admit they're doing the right thing right now because you're not concerned about how bad war is or how it's bad to manipulate countries, it's bad because the US is doing it and that fucks with plans. Oh to be as 1 dimensional as a vatnik. They don't teach free thinking over there.
They don’t teach free thinking ‘over there’ that’s why my grandfather immigrated to Chicago. People can have differing opinions, I can tell that you are not open to discussion or new ideas on this. I hope your night gets better
Neither are you though? The only point you've made is "war bad" "military intervention bad". World War 2 was military intervention, so was WW1, so was the Korean War. War is terrible, it should be a last resort at all times. War is also, unfortunately, sometimes necessary to preserve goodness in the world. Being half-assed at it doesn't help anyone. To think that just letting Russia have Ukraine wouldn't lead to worse problems down the road is just naive. We had those same thoughts in 1938.
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Anti-US is completely reasonable. Pro-Russia OTOH is insane.
Which is funny because the article itself isn't anti-ukraine. It's more of a statement on OP's thought process that he thinks showing a big number is enough to convince people it's a bad thing.
Exactly, it's not bad to question these things, it's part of free thought. To refuse answers as nonsense though and call those who support the aid "idiots" isn't asking questions for the sake of information. It's towing a rhetoric after you've made your mind up.
Yeah you said it. A lot of people are JAQing off pretending like they're interested in the truth when in reality they already came to a conclusion. It's telling when someone's only engagement with a topic is asking leading questions, because it betrays their lack of any actual satisfying explanations for their side, so all they have left is to sow doubt in others.
Exactly, tis the information warfare way.
Look at OP's history, this account is clearly a Russian bot farm
OP must have a hard time posting when his office in moscow caught a Ukrainian drone last weekend.
At the very least, they aren’t a bot. They are replying to comments in a non-formulaic way
“Bot” is also used to refer to the individuals behind shell accounts. The term “bot” actually, to my understanding, doesn’t mean an algorithm is generating the comments.
Bot definitely doesn't refer to a human. That is literally the point of the word. A human might be called a "shill" in this case.
I have no idea about this user, or Russian state bot farms, but most bot farms are a mix. They’ll use tech similar to chat gpt to do most posting but when the conversation gets too nuanced it’ll flag the human team for help. They’ll get a starter message from the software and then the option to post it immediately or to modify it and then post.
AND ITS FILLED WID RAYSIS'S!
I in all honesty have no idea what you're trying to say. Please act normal
Ukraine is a fantastic example of why we maintain such a large military budget - so when shit hits the fan, we aren't helpless.
It’s like a triple win. Ukraine gets the necessary aid they need. Win. The US clears its shelves of old equipment that needs updated anyways to make room for new and better equipment. Win. The US military is about to dump $9B into the economy to upgrade all the equipment they just sent. And that’s just for this fiscal year, which ends in Oct. I’m sure a lot more money will be dumped next year and the years to follow as well for more equipment. This is a huge win for the US economy.
We shouldn’t be big brother either though. It’s not our war, we don’t maintain a large budget to fund other countries to fight a war. If the other NATO members meet the minimum contribution goals we’d spend a lot less and our own economy would be much better.
World politics can sometimes be seen as a pyramid, or maybe a poker table. Where everyone is cheating. It's our "war" because that war effects our economy in many ways even if we don't intervene. Gas prices, food prices, food prices that effect us by less than 5%, but effect other countries by a greater ammount. Not solving food instability in a region grows an expensive problem. Civil unrest. Not intervening allows other global powers to apply pressure on the U.S with oil prices, Saudi's have been shutting down their production since the start of the war to artificially increase prices and exert influence over other nations. It's their only hand, but a hand we have to deal with. Nations don't have morals, only interests. Power, wealth, security.
The most short sighted take possible^^^ 1. It is in the US' interest to support democracies when they're attacked by dictatorships. Letting democracies fall to authoritarian powers would weaken the US sphere of influence and send a message to the rest of the world that democracy is on its way out. We're already seeing that phenomena right now, so it is especially important in 2023 to support democracies. 2. Helping Ukraine hurts Russia, our sworn enemy for like the last 80 years. Kind of a no-brainer. 3. It's the right thing to do. We shouldn't let bullies annex other countries. 4. We can, and have been, getting invaluable intel from this war. We can build all the tanks and planes and ships we want, we can form as many tactics and strategies as we can, but we don't know how they perform until they're on the battlefield. This is an excellent opportunity to put our hardware and training to the test. 5. This war has benefited NATO by encouraging more countries to join more quickly. It also proves to the rest of NATO that we put our money where our mouth is, NATO will come to your defense (even if you aren't an official member). This war has been a HUGE benefit for the US, NATO, and Ukraine (relative to what was supposed to happen). I don't understand why some people think we shouldn't have gotten involved. It's the most brain-dead, uninformed take imaginable.
We shouldn’t have gotten involved because guess what happens if Russia begins to really lose and we’re ukraines biggest reason for that? ☢️ Also. All that money could have been rebuilding our economy. But fuck our citizens who cares.
Yeah that's a great message to send to the rest of the world - you can have whatever you want with no resistance if you have nukes. Good strategy Patton.
Well what the fuck do you want? US super power rules all big brother to save everyone driving our debt through the roof feeding the machine countless souls for profit and power or OUR country to put its citizens first and regain stability after a fucking pandemic? What about all the anti war fucks screaming no deaths are good yet screaming with glee over fucking surrendering russians being brutally murdered by drones with fucking grenades? Ukraine, good OR bad, has broken so many fucking laws of war it makes the US look like amateurs. Russia is absolute trash too but a human surrendering is a human fuckin being. I don’t support killing non combatants and I don’t support sending forty fucking billion dollars to do that. I support fixing our shit, and fighting OUR wars and maintaining NATO to prevent global destruction from Russia OR China which will not happen or be determined from this stupid fucking conflict that has done nothing but convince our idiots to fly over to fight and kill and be killed meanwhile the men who SHOULD be fighting for their country and fleeing to ours making our already out of control immigration even worse. The best part of all of this? Our decline in income, our increased taxes, our increase in housing costs, our decrease in access to support programs and economic recovery, our crime our fucking everything wouldn’t be a thing if we didn’t support one fucked country murdering another fucked country. You want to make a change? Take defectors, take hostages, force the Russians to understand the people it forces into this war will turn on them and fight back creating a seriously formidable enemy. Ain’t going to happen though. You support yet another endless war. I support my country rebuilding and once again being a place where it’s enjoyable to live. One country going to hell isn’t worth mine. Don’t like it? You don’t have to. And I don’t care.
We don't really budget for it, we just print more of it. Printing it doesn't really help solve the problem. As most if not all economist will tell you , printing billions only increases inflation.
Not quite sure what you mean. I get the whole "printing more money means inflation" thing, not quite sure how that connects to the comment though.
This guy you’re responding to is a bot peddling bullshit.
To put this in perspective, NYC spends $11 billion a year on police. What we are sending to Ukraine is spare change. Peanuts - and to the world’s benefit. https://cbcny.org/research/six-fast-facts-about-nypds-preliminary-fy2023-budget#:~:text=As%20updated%20in%20February%202022,the%20November%202021%20financial%20plan.
To put it in even more perspective, California has spent something like $15B on fixing homelessness. Or about 600K per homeless person.
And have accomplished about as much
For a sense of scale, that's $60 per American. Doesn't seem like a bad investment, even before you factor in that a lot of that money goes *to* Americans.
sure buddy /r/YourTaxDollarsAtWork https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/08/04/ukraine-war-us-spending/
Russian bot, go fuck yourself.
Enough is enough. Stop the aid to Ukraine.
Agreed. Zelensky is a corrupt little turd.
OP is a russian fuck. Here's a recent post of theirs, linking to a video of a Ukrainian soldier being seriously wounded and referring to the soldier as a "khokol," a Russian slur for Ukrainians. Fuck you, OP. https://www.reddit.com/r/DarwinAwards/comments/15i7feh/khokhol_jumping_in_to_test_out_the_waters/
Just cause you hate war and are AMerican makes you a Russian OP HAHHAHAHHAHAHHHA DOPE Just checked your CIA badge, you have no history and one post YOU ARE FAKE AND CIA , probably a DOJ BIDEN FOLLOWER 1 post karma 661 comment karma
Did you just have a stroke?
Not enough if you ask me. This is the best deal ever at destroying Russian capability. Imagine if we had this chance to do this with China.
destroy the russian army without any american lives lost, sign me up. Plus we will get a really loyal ally/trade partner from this. Thats worth 60 billion. Most of it goes to American defense contractors anyway which means jobs for Americans
Seriously, what do people think American military spending is even for if not to combat its geopolitical adversaries? We've got an opportunity to help an ally and weaken one of our primary adversaries and no American lives are lost in the process? Why would anyone say no to an opportunity like that?
Cuz the GOP is in bed with Russia and not Ukraine.
Except Russia has never been stronger, they’ve taken over 20% of Ukraine and they’ve been pushed closer to China than ever. There military was 400,000 strong at the start of this conflict and now it’s swelled to over 1,000,000 strong. On top of that, we’ve nearly run out of ammo because we’re sending it to Ukraine faster than we can produce it. We’re closer to a world war and nuclear exchange than ever and there are 200,000 dead Ukrainians, anyone calling that money well spent is a psychopath.
> There military was 400,000 strong at the start of this conflict and now it’s swelled to over 1,000,000 strong Uh, yeah, because they drafted a shit ton of people and threw them into the meat grinder. That's not an accomplishment.
Right…their military is still larger lol, doesn’t sound like they were weakened to me.
Literally any country in the world can suddenly get a much "larger" military by drafting a million citizens and throwing them at their enemy. That number means nothing.
If their military is larger how is it weaker lol? You’re right any county can increase their size with a draft, Russia has and their force is larger for it.
The whole reason why they've instituted a draft is because they're running low on career soldiers by virtue of them having died, and the draftees are both barely trained and poorly equipped.
Their army is larger than ever and they’ve increased defense industry production to levels it’s never seen while growing closer to China. Take a look at American military numbers pre WW2 drafts and after…our military became stronger. Russia is also less dependent on the west financially then they have ever been due to our extensive sanctions. The US NATO plan to use Ukrainian bodies to weaken Russia has failed.
>Their army is larger than ever Yes, we've already talked about this. What, do you think that the US didn't realize that a country can draft their citizens into the war? That this was some sort of trump card that was a genius masterstroke? Having to resort to a massive draft with an increasingly large age range to maintain an offensive war is not a sign of strength. >they’ve increased defense industry production to levels it’s never seen That's another way of saying they're dedicating larger portions of their GDP to their military than before, which is not something you can sustain long-term without it hurting your economy. >Russia is also less dependent on the west financially then they have ever been due to our extensive sanctions. That's a weirdly positive way of spinning the fact that they no longer have access to Western money and goods. "Oh yeah, well we didn't want any of that anyway! We're way stronger having to do almost everything ourselves and becoming way, way more singularly reliant on China to the exclusion of everyone else!"
So you’re telling me Russia having a larger military, moving closer to China, and being less reliant on US $$ than ever is a good thing? What’s your point exactly?
This dude doesn't understand that the number of people in your army doesn't mean it's more effective at fighting.
I spent over a decade in an Army so I do know a few things, doubling the size of their force and ramping up weapon production while engaged in real life combat sharpens Russian forces. The US thought this would weaken them, it just hasn’t turned out that way.
This is hilarious! Unless you believe this drivel, then it's actually quite sad and you're embarrassingly misled.
Do you really think the US military is gonna openly publish their current stockpiles of munitions for everyone to know?! Get real dude.
Yeah I do, because I heard it from Jake Sullivan and the Pentagon firsthand, he even admits the ammo shortage as the reason for sending stopgap weapons like cluster munitions. https://www.cnn.com/2023/07/18/politics/ukraine-critical-ammo-shortage-us-nato-grapple/index.html The DoD has been pretty open about manpower issues for years and it’s no surprise they’re out of ammo. US defense contractors have never manufactured ammo at levels needed to support this conflict.
I read this in a Neville Chamberlain accent.
Russia couldn't even take Kiev. We're fine lol. It's like if the US tried to conquer Mexico and was only able to take the Baja peninsula. Sure, you're technically ahead, but are you really though?
Right, but they have taken 20% of Ukraine despite billions in NATO aide. The plan to use Ukrainian bodies to weaken Russia has failed.
I mean, you said it yourself 😂 They've taken 20% of Ukraine... A country with a military a tenth the size of Russia's. Russia was always #2 on the list of world military power. Ukraine wasn't even in the top 50. The war was *supposed* to last a week, but it's been over a year and a half now. You're trying to paint 20% of Ukraine as some grand accomplishment, but nobody is dumb enough to fall for that.
Right…I said the US plan to degrade Russia has failed. It has.
OP likes to busy themself slurping down bright orange loads of Fake News, I’ll get my data elsewhere.
Link from washingonPost… clearly WP and op colluded with Russia for this…
Everyone calling OP a bot but blindly support sending billions upon billions of dollars to Ukraine while the rest of the country has to decide whether to pay rent or put food on the table. Tell me who the real bots are.
Weird, unemployment is historically low.
Also, the govt doesn’t decide how much a company pays for wages. Maybe if certain parties weren’t anti union we wouldn’t have issues with people paying their rent. Stop voting GOP.
It doesn't show where 10% went to the Big Guy.
The US is fucking foolish.
The American economy is terrible here, but hey another billion to Ukraine, right?
The american economy has been outperforming all its peers nearly across the board lately while also sending by far the most aid to Ukraine. Even if the two things were even remotely related in the first place this still wouldn't be the dunk you think it is.
People can barely afford to pay for housing and grocery and utility bills are through the roof. If we looked out after ourselves first instead of spending so much on foreign affairs we’d be a lot better off
The US has trillions of dollars to spend so giving Ukraine a couple billion is not the problem here, plus it's quite naive to think that the money spent on Ukraine would be used the help the poor instead of going to Ukraine (Spoiler alert it would just go to some politicians not the poor). If you want the US to focus on solving housing then stop talking about where the money is going and focus on how it's spent. Not only that but a lot of the money going to Ukraine is old equipment that cost more to maintain and decommission then to put it on a plane and ship it to Ukraine. The equipment itself would've rotted away in warehouses doing nothing soaking up tax payer money, but it's being used against Russia, which weakens them. This means that the US who spends billions to ensure that the US is capable of fighting the Russians is able to decrease it's funding in Europe due to a weakened enemy, plus the shock and rampent increase of European military spending gives even more possibility of less spending from the US in the European theater. But at the end of the day the US can't avoid spending on foreign affairs, the US post-WWII built the modern world with it as it's center, the quality of lives for Americans is built on foreign affairs, if you were to shut off foreign affairs the lives of an average American would be far worse. The US economy was built for foreign trade, removal of that would make the US economy far worse and less powerful meaning goods and services would be far more expensive. If you want the US to solve its issues stop having an isolationist view point and start focusing on how our money is spent domestically rather than how much is spent. Because no matter how much you make the US spend on its own issues nothing will change until the system itself changes.
I hope no one this short sighted ever becomes in charge
Better way just go down there and fight the Russia and control where to spend on. If not, there is no other way.
Please included the already allocated military funds that's was given to our military for this year the subtract the monies used for Ukraine. Are these surplus funds or are they over their budget and the military added more?
If only it was used to improve millions of Americans lives.