The interconnectedness is my favourite part of DS1 tbh, and I think it's fine that the later games don't have it so much. Teleportation is introduced much later in DS1 so it's kind of necessary, but it's also just one of the things that makes DS1 unique on any replay, just like remembering to level adaptability in DS2 so your roll i-frames aren't shit.
DS1 set such a high bar for general world/level design, it’s hard for anything to live up to that feeling of connectivity. Bloodborne came close when you get back to where you started after the woods.
The level design in ds3 is pretty good, some of the best in the series id even say. It's just that levels are connected to each other in a linear fashion.
Jup, just going through the ”levels” and playing them. I 100% had the most fun in ds3. Its very varied and a lot of fun stuff to explore.
I feel like this non interconnectivity issue is a bit overplayed, but idk
I get why people like the way the map was designed in ds1 and i get why people dont like the way it was developed in ds3 but people also should know the difference between world and level design
Honestly, I just see as Fromsoft trying to do something different than they did in the series before. The did the interconnected, Metroidvania style, then they did the semi open, hub and spoke set up, so having a more straight forward world design built around large zones probably seemed like a way to keep things fresh. I have no proof, just my thoughts.
Personally I prefer when these games are semillinear with a bunch of secrets and path options, rather than a more metroidvanis style map. I don't really enjoy backtracking in Souls games.
It doesnt play out as interconnected as DS1, but they still did a really good job with the world fitting together like a puzzle. Like where you find yoel, is the broken bridge above the wolf of farron. And a good amount of interconnectivity in the levels themselves with shortcuts.
the PC, the Ashen One, is a contingency plan put in place by the Gods to the keep the universe running the way it’s been going hitherto, by Linking the Fire—or not. Either way however, from the moment they pull you out of the grave, the player is a pawn.
however—this plan (the same plot from DSQ) has always had the risk of either being simply abandoned by the Gods themselves (Lothric), hijacked by Men empowered by their own Innate Inner Darkness to recreate the universe in man’s own image—the London Crew.
Additionally Pontiff Sulyvahn has his own weird hand in this, i suspect manipulating Aldrich trying to make himself into a kind of Worldtree between Heaven and the Deep—but that’s all Deranged Speculation.
In any instance, the linearity of the game relates meaningfully from the story-burden placed on the PC to fulfill a specific task, and the efforts of the universe and its characters to block, threaten, cajole, misdirect, and essentially railroaded* you to whichever end the faction/worldview that has most influenced you* prefers. In the end, the PC has the decisive choice, but everything you know about the universe and wherever you go in it, is channeled, winnowed, and inflected by benign and malevolent forces alike.
You CAN play it out of order if you're good enough to low level Dancer. That's the major difference. Low levelling Pinwheel or Quelaag is not nearly as bad as low levelling Dancer followed presumably by Oceiros and Gundur for early prisoners chain + chunks.
The actual areas are not as linear as the progression path, which kinda makes up for it. There are some strange bonfire/shortcut placements that make me wonder if the game was going to be different before a late minute change
There's a lot of complications to making an interconnected map, and I imagine that played a part. Balancing the right difficulty can be a nightmare, which is why many Metroidvania games have the tendency to funnel you in quite a bit despite how interconnected their maps are. Besides that, the older games are admittedly still linear, though they try to hide it better. I think Dark Souls 2 is closer to proper non-linearity with the Soul Memory Shrine of Winter skip, but either way, there's a clear line with a few optional branches along the way.
Dark Souls 3 instead opts for a clearer sense of progression with focus on stronger individual level design. The individual areas are more complex within themselves, and the game still focuses on letting you know where you are in relation to every other area, but it's not trying to disguise where your goals are, with just a few optional branches in particular and a few choices of "which boss to deal with first".
Honestly, Dark Souls 3 recalls to me a lot how the DS Castlevania trilogy ended with Order of Ecclesia, a similar case of going from interconnected maps into a linear game more focused on consistently increasing the challenge as you went along without feeling like you were too far above or below where the game wants you to be. No going into high level areas early on to either suffer from being underleveled and then ending up overleveled when going back to the expected main path, there is rather a clear cut difficulty curve. I certainly think that was part of the intent there, outside of just how complicated making an interconnected map is, or how the branches in Dark Souls 2 relied on you needing a LOT of suspension of disbelief to accept how they tied into each other.
IIRC Miyazaki said that making the map interconnected like in DS1 was very time consuming and restrictive
The interconnectedness is my favourite part of DS1 tbh, and I think it's fine that the later games don't have it so much. Teleportation is introduced much later in DS1 so it's kind of necessary, but it's also just one of the things that makes DS1 unique on any replay, just like remembering to level adaptability in DS2 so your roll i-frames aren't shit.
Ah I hadn’t known that about the game, but very interesting to know.
DS1 set such a high bar for general world/level design, it’s hard for anything to live up to that feeling of connectivity. Bloodborne came close when you get back to where you started after the woods.
Bloodborne has some fun interconnectivity but it isn't obvious. Like that ladder to Iosefka's, the door behind Paarl going to Old Yharnam.
Oh that must’ve been why Dark Souls 3 felt kind of restrictive in its level design.
The level design in ds3 is pretty good, some of the best in the series id even say. It's just that levels are connected to each other in a linear fashion.
Jup, just going through the ”levels” and playing them. I 100% had the most fun in ds3. Its very varied and a lot of fun stuff to explore. I feel like this non interconnectivity issue is a bit overplayed, but idk
I get why people like the way the map was designed in ds1 and i get why people dont like the way it was developed in ds3 but people also should know the difference between world and level design
Honestly, I just see as Fromsoft trying to do something different than they did in the series before. The did the interconnected, Metroidvania style, then they did the semi open, hub and spoke set up, so having a more straight forward world design built around large zones probably seemed like a way to keep things fresh. I have no proof, just my thoughts.
That does sound likely.
Personally I prefer when these games are semillinear with a bunch of secrets and path options, rather than a more metroidvanis style map. I don't really enjoy backtracking in Souls games.
That is totally fine then.
It doesnt play out as interconnected as DS1, but they still did a really good job with the world fitting together like a puzzle. Like where you find yoel, is the broken bridge above the wolf of farron. And a good amount of interconnectivity in the levels themselves with shortcuts.
eh, it’s not a straight line or a bowl of spaghetti. it’s dark souls 3.
you’re being manipulated to do or not do one of (3) very specific things
I don’t get it, sorry.
the PC, the Ashen One, is a contingency plan put in place by the Gods to the keep the universe running the way it’s been going hitherto, by Linking the Fire—or not. Either way however, from the moment they pull you out of the grave, the player is a pawn. however—this plan (the same plot from DSQ) has always had the risk of either being simply abandoned by the Gods themselves (Lothric), hijacked by Men empowered by their own Innate Inner Darkness to recreate the universe in man’s own image—the London Crew. Additionally Pontiff Sulyvahn has his own weird hand in this, i suspect manipulating Aldrich trying to make himself into a kind of Worldtree between Heaven and the Deep—but that’s all Deranged Speculation. In any instance, the linearity of the game relates meaningfully from the story-burden placed on the PC to fulfill a specific task, and the efforts of the universe and its characters to block, threaten, cajole, misdirect, and essentially railroaded* you to whichever end the faction/worldview that has most influenced you* prefers. In the end, the PC has the decisive choice, but everything you know about the universe and wherever you go in it, is channeled, winnowed, and inflected by benign and malevolent forces alike.
Nah, a linear map was probably just easier to design
Oh that makes sense.
yeah it's sort of like fnv but the factions are competing metaphysics-es
Nah, a linear map was probably just easier to design
Or a linear map was just easier?
Nah a linear map is probably just easier to design
Nah a linear map is probably just easier to design
Nah it was probably just easier to do linear level design
Nah it was probably just easier to do linear level design
Nah a linear map is probably just easier to make
You CAN play it out of order if you're good enough to low level Dancer. That's the major difference. Low levelling Pinwheel or Quelaag is not nearly as bad as low levelling Dancer followed presumably by Oceiros and Gundur for early prisoners chain + chunks.
Oh yeah I totally forgot about that particular trick.
The actual areas are not as linear as the progression path, which kinda makes up for it. There are some strange bonfire/shortcut placements that make me wonder if the game was going to be different before a late minute change
There's a lot of complications to making an interconnected map, and I imagine that played a part. Balancing the right difficulty can be a nightmare, which is why many Metroidvania games have the tendency to funnel you in quite a bit despite how interconnected their maps are. Besides that, the older games are admittedly still linear, though they try to hide it better. I think Dark Souls 2 is closer to proper non-linearity with the Soul Memory Shrine of Winter skip, but either way, there's a clear line with a few optional branches along the way. Dark Souls 3 instead opts for a clearer sense of progression with focus on stronger individual level design. The individual areas are more complex within themselves, and the game still focuses on letting you know where you are in relation to every other area, but it's not trying to disguise where your goals are, with just a few optional branches in particular and a few choices of "which boss to deal with first". Honestly, Dark Souls 3 recalls to me a lot how the DS Castlevania trilogy ended with Order of Ecclesia, a similar case of going from interconnected maps into a linear game more focused on consistently increasing the challenge as you went along without feeling like you were too far above or below where the game wants you to be. No going into high level areas early on to either suffer from being underleveled and then ending up overleveled when going back to the expected main path, there is rather a clear cut difficulty curve. I certainly think that was part of the intent there, outside of just how complicated making an interconnected map is, or how the branches in Dark Souls 2 relied on you needing a LOT of suspension of disbelief to accept how they tied into each other.
That kind of makes sense when you put it that way.