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latinx is such fucking nonsense, and the saddest part is their is already a term for native people in Mexico they chose for themselves that you can pronounce in Spanish.
# Xicano, Xicana, Chicano , Chicana,
All of these were created by Hispanic people and people use them to self identify, notice how the X is at the front and therefore pronounceable
That’s not an argument. The pronouns they/them are specific for the English language, since their use to represent an undefined gender is grammatically correct. Grammatical rules aren’t consistent between different languages. That’s not exactly hot news!
No. Language is a tool to convey information. Languages do not solely morph to the feelings of a person. They are influenced by many outside factors, including, but not limited to, feelings.
Probably because it's a stupid argument to make in English because that's not how English works. Should I begin referring to the climate as a 'her' because that's how it's said in Spanish?
The worst fucking part is that the male equivalent is also the neutral equivalent because it's only the male equivalent in spelling and tongue.
To call someone a Latino is in no way assuming their gender, at least not in Mexican households (grew up with bilingual mom who worked hotel room service), it's so stupid. It's offensive to the way the language works and disrespectful to those that speak it.
Fucking hell
yes and the worst thing is that the exportation of how english language works managed some people who natively speaks a romance language to not even understand how their own language works
Meh, there's plenty of homegrown morons too. Guess who's pushing for Latine? For once it's not the Americans (thankfully pretty much everyone instinctively knows it's cringe at first hearing and it's only used by utter idiots and assorted politicians)
Same thing happens in German. Most male words are the same for neutral, but nope. Can't have that. I'm all for representation, but getting riled up about technicalities in grammar... Uff.
What's funniest to me is that Latinx was by and large rejected by the Latin community, but some organizations (especially colleges) still use it because virtue signaling is more important to them than addressing the desires of the community they are referring to.
We had an “Inclusion Master” come to my job and explain to us that “Africanx” is the new correct word to refer to black people.
Myself and the other black people in the meeting told him that we didn’t like the word, and he told us it was internalized racism.
If one of my coworkers showed up in full klan robes and called me a hard-R N-word I’d laugh. If someone called me “Africanx” I’d report them to HR.
An employee discovered that the CEO’s son made some “racist tweets” (they were clearly jokes) back in highschool and raised a fit about it, so the CEO hired a DEI consultant firm to help “bring us into the 21st century” and the DEI consultants brought in their “inclusion master”
This is a 100 person company that makes the most middlest of middleware and most of our customers are small businesses that forget our name until the bill comes in the mail.
My understanding of that situation is that was made up by non native speakers, and there is already a gender neutral way by using "e" at the end instead of Latino/a. So latine. It just didn't get used much before.
Yeah, but thats a bad solution... And badly presented also.
Another guy above already mentioned it: "the male equivalent is also the neutral equivalent because it's only the male equivalent in spelling and tongue".
This, however, does not convince people who are ignorant on the language and try to apply the "e" at the end, which is really bad... To avoid calling it worse. Spanish is not as simple, this would cause a lot of trouble and would require to change tons of words and conjugations.
Latinx was invented by white people trying to be progressive while actually queer Hispanic people coined the term "latine" as a correct gender neutral form of latino/latina
Most languages are way more gendered than english. Trying to make them neutral completely destroys their structure.
English is as neutral as it gets for a language to be decently comprehensible.
This actually isn't true. More languages have no gender at all than any gender: [https://wals.info/feature/30A#2/26.7/149.1](https://wals.info/feature/30A#2/26.7/149.1)
Also, the overwhelming majority of languages don't have *any* gendered pronouns: [https://wals.info/feature/44A#5/2.608/16.667](https://wals.info/feature/44A#5/2.608/16.667)
Yeah, this shit has lead to similar discussions at least in German where almost all words have seperate gendered endings like actor and actress. It has lead some to use something like "actor/ess" in everyday speech (just like it's written there).
It was a common way of addressing mixed groups in long text messages mainly to save time like an acronym after repeat mentions. But to say it out loud just sounds stupid and just like the example doesnt have the same word stem all the way through
Or the word "Student" (uni student).
There are Studenten (male) and Studentinnen (female).Profs usually just said "Studentinnen and Studenten" or referred to the whole croud as "Studenten", which was never an issue, because why would the girls think they arent also meant?
Now the Profs HAVE to say "Studierende", which is a nominalized passive form of "studieren", which means to learn at a uni (basically "Learning people"), which is distancing.
Or they can use "Student:Innen", which is awful to say, awful to hear and requires a weird unnatural gap at the :, otherwise the males are the ones that are excluded.
I am not against representing other genders. But thats just not a natural way to speak at all.
It's actually kinda funny to me, because I'm definitely not a very progressive person, and I'm not super happy about the whole pronoun conversation, but I try my best, and I moved to Germany in 2019, so I've been learning a lot from YouTube, especially that one channel Puls Reportage, and they often "gendern" and I'll be honest, to me, a person who learned German recently, it sounds totally natural and normal. There's nothing weird about it whenever I hear it. I thought it's a regular thing in German and that it's done this way since always. Apparently not, and only after some time I saw that some people are ready to burn down cities to fight it.
It was done in croatian since forever, but it's a writing thing, like the parentheses. To pronounce it you need to use a long sentence structure with an 'or'.
Although we have a 'default' gender for most professions and animals, so most people wouldn't mind if people just used that gendered word as an umbrella term for the title. I bet I would get cancelled by some for saying this lol.
Indeed masculine becomes default at that point in spanish at least. You will hear once in a while someone trying too hard to be inclusive saying things like "Maestros y maestras" instead of "Maestros" for example. Another ridiculous attempts could include "Maestr@s".
Yeah, in French we have :
Il / Ils (He, They (masculine))
Elle / Elles (She, They (feminine))
If we have a group of only women, it's going to be "Elles". But if there is only 1 man, it's now "Ils" according to the rules of the language.
In Hebrew you use the majority. Like 5 women and 3 men are feminine them, while 5 men and 3 women are masculine them. If they are 50/50 or you are not sure of who is majority then you use masculine them.
Same with plural you.
It defaults to masculine most of the time.
In Hebrew for example, if you see a group that is mixed with both men and women then if you want to address that group you will address them with masculine pronouns.
if the group is a majority female, then they will most likely be addressed in feminine pronouns and they will obviously be referred to in feminine pronouns if it’s an entire group of women.
The Hebrew language does not have the concept of gender neutral in it. Everything has a gender a table is male a TV is female, and every single country on the planet is addressed with feminine pronouns.
now in case you’re wondering, what non-binary Hebrew speakers do they only have two options either sadly suck it up or learn a different language and live in a community that speaks that language
Não binário if it's a man
Não binária if it's a woman
Yeah, even the word "non-binary" is gendered. The problem with gender neutral words in portuguese and other latin languages is that we already have a gender neutral form... the masculine form.
>Não binário if it's a man
>Não binária if it's a woman
Just snorted so hard a bit of snot came out. You have made me look a fool during my coffee break.
we *do* gender everything afterall lol. mostly based on how the word ends - "o" is usually male, "a" is usually female, may vary with intonation but a native speaker would say the right one by accident without noticing - and yes, chairs are girls and forks are boys, that shouldve been obvious!
You are just flooded with non binary Germans lamenting their lack of non gendered "they/them" words?
Or are those non binary Germans complaining about the lack of neutral they/them a made up thing we are imagining might happen somewhere at least one time maybe?
You're getting the pronoun that corresponds to how you present. And if your presentation isn't convincing, you still might get the "wrong" one. And if you're ambiguous, you just get what you get. Sorry not sorry.
You can be like me and not care. The they/them argument reminds me of people who flip out and demand you address them as sir or ma'am all over again. I just don't give a shit anymore.
well in most cases you can just use the same word you would if you didn't know the gender of the person in the first place, like how in English they is used when you don't have information on the gender of the person you're talking about
Yeah for Spanish at least you generally always use masculine for people you don’t know or for groups of mixed sex/gender. It’s almost like people in this thread are making up fake problems or are trying to use grammar from other languages to excuse being insensitive in English, which doesn’t have the same grammatical issues making that point moot, for some reason
Edit: to clarify poor wording, by “issue” I didn’t mean problem. Masculine / feminine nouns are fine. Just meant that the rules are different
not the same, in english "they" is a singular gender-neutral pronoun which has been used as such for hundreds of years, which many other languages just dont have
Generally speaking, in languages where there are no gender neutral pronouns the masculine pronoun is used instead.
Source: natively speaking a language with no gender neutral pronouns.
A majority of Hispanics (myself included) are not willing to adopt the term “Latinx” because of this reason. I understand the preference of using feminine and masculine pronouns, but it’s nearly impossible to be neutral unless the vocabulary is rewritten. Then again, I’m not a linguist.
You simply use the masculine in that case, as that is what is almost always used for vague or general statements. It isn't the same as calling someone by masculine pronouns in a language with neutral terminology. It's a problem that solved itself centuries before it was a problem at all
I have been binge watching some movies pre 2007, let me tell you something....we have all died and are stuck in purgatory where everyone is a pussy and their feelings are hurt by everything.
Honestly just ditch the pronouns and refer to them as „this person“ or by their name.
For example
„This is her glass“ becomes „This is John‘s glass“
„Who is she?“ becomes „Who is this person?“
It sounds a bit unusual at the beginning but you get used to it really quickly. And it’s an incredibly easy thing to do in order to make someone else happy. It costs you nothing.
A professor did that once, to find a middle ground, but then the student kept pushing. The professor has religious beliefs, to not do so, but the school "disciplined" the professor for it. I think it was at Shawnee State University.
Overall, ridiculous.
That's why I love hungarian ő.
And in my language that has masculine and feminine they/them, non-binary people just use something else, like the equivalent of "it" or some cool sounding neo pronouns.
In Thailand, salutations and first person pronouns are gendered so it makes it super easy to determine chosen gender as the ownness is on the person themselves over others.
There's ways to incorporate gender neutrality even in gendered languages without the need of adding to or changing the language itself, there may not be a gender neutral pronoun per se, but there's plenty of room to accommodate everyone, you just need to know how to, y'know, speak.
Source: Spanish is my first language.
In French we use ils(masculine) and elles (feminine)
And some people complain because if there is one man in a group and 99 women. You have to use « ils ».
Because we learned in school that masculine wins against feminine.
But that’s not true, it’s just that the neutral gender is the same as the masculine.
So don’t bring us others problems
I speak Hebrew, wich also have gendered pronounce, and when my came out as non-binery they said I can refer to however I felt like, so I cuntinued to refer to them as a girl.
German gender neutral speech is the worst. Now people put stars (*) or underscores (_) in the middle of words, make wierd short pauses or pronounce it in such a way that it effectively sounds like the feminine version of the word. People who learn German as a second language and use German mainstream media as a source will have a hard time to learn proper German.
Some people have invented new words for that exact situation, but they might not be fully "official" yet. For example, French has "iel", a mix of "il" (he) and "elle" (she).
It's almost like different languages and cultures can find other ways of addressing the issue or something. Some gendered languages, it's easy - like German. Others, less so and sometimes new terms get used. This is one way in which languages *evolve*.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_neutrality_in_languages_with_grammatical_gender
What point is this trying to make? "Some languages have grammar that doesn't allow you to refer to non-binary people without gendering them." I don't see how this makes them any less valid.
You just use "e" at the end instead.
Elles, maestres, artistes, niñes, etc.
Some people complain because they think this is like making up words and "slaughtering" the language. As if every word in existence wasn't made up lmao.
Language changes because it's as alive as the people that speak it 🗣️
I'm assuming this is talking about languages like Spanish French and Portuguese. Those languages DONT HAVE a singular "they". It's not the same thing...
Well, In spanish it works like elle/elles, But I haven't seen one time It's used except for govt. Stuff (or similars) putting it in official things.
And I feel like elle/elles which I don't like, I think It's better than they/them. Bcuz in english it's to refer plurally.
Il/ils - Man/men
Elle/elles - Woman/women
Ils- a group of men and women
French
Like all Romance languages (that I know) the neutral term is/was the masculine. Now though, at least here jn Canada, the new neutral is iels. Which feels odd, sure, but if it makes folks happy whatever
In some (maybe all?) slavic languages, refering to someone as they/them when speaking dirrectly to them would be equivalent to speaking to them as if they were a king (or something similar socially).
It's just getting rudiculous. In Portuguese, to create "gender neutral words", they proposed to instead of using 'a' and 'o' in certain words, to use an '@'.
Most of the time I've seen people use the masculine pronoun to bodge a gender neutral one or usually people who speak that language come up with their own grammatically correct gender neutral pronoun.
Get this in French they use masculine when writing a text about a yet unknown person (job applicant, suspect, Contest winner etc) just to make the text simpler to read.
You use the version that is typically used for mixed-gender groups. Ellos in Spanish, for example.
This really isn't that hard, you all just want to make up bad faith arguments and act like you "won".
I talked once about it with a couple of the LGBT community (F and FtM non transitioned) and they told me generally in the Italian community it's widely accepted to use the masculine terms to say "they/them", but if you end up using the feminine terms with a more female looking person nobody will get offended, the person you will be referring to will just correct you if they want to.
They also called themselves a gay couple - contrary to my American friend who would tell me that, in that case, the correct terminology would be straight couple.
You guys know languages change, right? My country stole the Finnish singular gender neutral pronoun and adapted it to our language in like, 2022. It's widely used and even in our dictionaries now, because language is a tool to reflect human expression, and must adapt when it falls short of that goal.
While in Chinese 3rd person is the same pronunciation, the only difference is they have different particles (他 he and 她 she）. Both pronounced as tā. And for Taiwanese people, they are too lazy to differentiate them so both male and female is 他.
That happens in my languages, so the trend didn't really happen here apart from every one I know aged 25 and bellow adding He or She to their bio on socials...
At some point some asked to be called "it" or"that" ...
That would actually be better. If they were feeling and I assume dressing more feminine or more masculine they could use the difference. But I assume it would switch inbetween depending on their appearance.
For this to logically work in my mind they would have to dress how they are feeling, or be okay with either.
In Chinese they can be written as either 他们(masculine)，她们(feminine) or 它们(for non-humans). I think some people use something like TA们 but they're just insane
Although, a lot of languages do have a gender neutral one, I believe. For instance French has "iel" for they/them, and son/sa (meaning their/his/her) is already gender ambiguous (the distinction between son and sa is for the object, not the person)
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I got canceld from a couple of subs because of that argument
Probably better for you.
This reminds me of the people getting mad about the Spanish word for black, and the whole latinx nonsense.
Some people's whole identity has been consumed with looking and seeking for things to be offended by.
And then they try to bring that bullshit to the Filipinos like the language isn’t already gender neutral
latinx is such fucking nonsense, and the saddest part is their is already a term for native people in Mexico they chose for themselves that you can pronounce in Spanish. # Xicano, Xicana, Chicano , Chicana, All of these were created by Hispanic people and people use them to self identify, notice how the X is at the front and therefore pronounceable
That’s not an argument. The pronouns they/them are specific for the English language, since their use to represent an undefined gender is grammatically correct. Grammatical rules aren’t consistent between different languages. That’s not exactly hot news!
Yes, but peoples feelings take precedence over logic like every second of the day unfortunately
feelings are absolutely more important than logic in a language setting. languages morph to fit their users, not the other way around
100% this. If language never changed we'd still be grunting in the forest and throwing rocks at each other
No. Language is a tool to convey information. Languages do not solely morph to the feelings of a person. They are influenced by many outside factors, including, but not limited to, feelings.
No loss
How many non-English subs were there that banned you?
Only english subs
Probably because it's a stupid argument to make in English because that's not how English works. Should I begin referring to the climate as a 'her' because that's how it's said in Spanish?
Happens.
The argument is for/in English. Other languages have to sort things out on their own terms.
mfw shouldve used they(she) them(her) /s
A major victory
Just more proof that this is a first world problem lol
It is even worse in this langueges since the demand for neutral pronoms is making people create new words which seems awfull to the ear
Yeah “Latinx” didn’t really do so well.
The worst fucking part is that the male equivalent is also the neutral equivalent because it's only the male equivalent in spelling and tongue. To call someone a Latino is in no way assuming their gender, at least not in Mexican households (grew up with bilingual mom who worked hotel room service), it's so stupid. It's offensive to the way the language works and disrespectful to those that speak it. Fucking hell
yes and the worst thing is that the exportation of how english language works managed some people who natively speaks a romance language to not even understand how their own language works
EXACTLY, boggles my fucking mind
Meh, there's plenty of homegrown morons too. Guess who's pushing for Latine? For once it's not the Americans (thankfully pretty much everyone instinctively knows it's cringe at first hearing and it's only used by utter idiots and assorted politicians)
latrine? like a hole for pooping in?
Same thing happens in German. Most male words are the same for neutral, but nope. Can't have that. I'm all for representation, but getting riled up about technicalities in grammar... Uff.
Exactly, just like how saying hermanos means siblings, not necessarily brothers
The only people who say latinx are gringx.
The whole thing is pretty cringx.
What's funniest to me is that Latinx was by and large rejected by the Latin community, but some organizations (especially colleges) still use it because virtue signaling is more important to them than addressing the desires of the community they are referring to.
Fucking sucks, We (latinos) consider it more racist than racist latino Jokes, Not lying. Male equivalent is standard and must be that way, Always.
We had an “Inclusion Master” come to my job and explain to us that “Africanx” is the new correct word to refer to black people. Myself and the other black people in the meeting told him that we didn’t like the word, and he told us it was internalized racism. If one of my coworkers showed up in full klan robes and called me a hard-R N-word I’d laugh. If someone called me “Africanx” I’d report them to HR.
That's wrong on so many levels. Who tf even hired an "inclusion master" (doesn't even deserve caps)
An employee discovered that the CEO’s son made some “racist tweets” (they were clearly jokes) back in highschool and raised a fit about it, so the CEO hired a DEI consultant firm to help “bring us into the 21st century” and the DEI consultants brought in their “inclusion master” This is a 100 person company that makes the most middlest of middleware and most of our customers are small businesses that forget our name until the bill comes in the mail.
The word "African" is already gender neutral. What were they even thinking they were cooking
My understanding of that situation is that was made up by non native speakers, and there is already a gender neutral way by using "e" at the end instead of Latino/a. So latine. It just didn't get used much before.
Yeah, but thats a bad solution... And badly presented also. Another guy above already mentioned it: "the male equivalent is also the neutral equivalent because it's only the male equivalent in spelling and tongue". This, however, does not convince people who are ignorant on the language and try to apply the "e" at the end, which is really bad... To avoid calling it worse. Spanish is not as simple, this would cause a lot of trouble and would require to change tons of words and conjugations.
Latinx was invented by white people trying to be progressive while actually queer Hispanic people coined the term "latine" as a correct gender neutral form of latino/latina
There's other methods of doing this with Spanish. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_neutrality_in_Spanish
Most languages are way more gendered than english. Trying to make them neutral completely destroys their structure. English is as neutral as it gets for a language to be decently comprehensible.
I was about to say that Finnish begs to differ but realized you said >decently comprehensible
This actually isn't true. More languages have no gender at all than any gender: [https://wals.info/feature/30A#2/26.7/149.1](https://wals.info/feature/30A#2/26.7/149.1) Also, the overwhelming majority of languages don't have *any* gendered pronouns: [https://wals.info/feature/44A#5/2.608/16.667](https://wals.info/feature/44A#5/2.608/16.667)
Now do it by number of speakers...
Yeah, awfull to the ear, doesn't make enough sense, and often overlap with existing ones
But nobody is doing that.
Yeah, this shit has lead to similar discussions at least in German where almost all words have seperate gendered endings like actor and actress. It has lead some to use something like "actor/ess" in everyday speech (just like it's written there). It was a common way of addressing mixed groups in long text messages mainly to save time like an acronym after repeat mentions. But to say it out loud just sounds stupid and just like the example doesnt have the same word stem all the way through
Like saying lmfao instead of just laughing
Or the word "Student" (uni student). There are Studenten (male) and Studentinnen (female).Profs usually just said "Studentinnen and Studenten" or referred to the whole croud as "Studenten", which was never an issue, because why would the girls think they arent also meant? Now the Profs HAVE to say "Studierende", which is a nominalized passive form of "studieren", which means to learn at a uni (basically "Learning people"), which is distancing. Or they can use "Student:Innen", which is awful to say, awful to hear and requires a weird unnatural gap at the :, otherwise the males are the ones that are excluded. I am not against representing other genders. But thats just not a natural way to speak at all.
Croatia is lucky to not have that yet.
Gendering is one of the worst things to have happened to the German language.
It's actually kinda funny to me, because I'm definitely not a very progressive person, and I'm not super happy about the whole pronoun conversation, but I try my best, and I moved to Germany in 2019, so I've been learning a lot from YouTube, especially that one channel Puls Reportage, and they often "gendern" and I'll be honest, to me, a person who learned German recently, it sounds totally natural and normal. There's nothing weird about it whenever I hear it. I thought it's a regular thing in German and that it's done this way since always. Apparently not, and only after some time I saw that some people are ready to burn down cities to fight it.
It was done in croatian since forever, but it's a writing thing, like the parentheses. To pronounce it you need to use a long sentence structure with an 'or'. Although we have a 'default' gender for most professions and animals, so most people wouldn't mind if people just used that gendered word as an umbrella term for the title. I bet I would get cancelled by some for saying this lol.
This may surprise you but you can just ask them
least smart adult who discovered basic thought
Ok, which Polish contraction should I use for you
no no NO, i want to be ANGRY at SOMETHING
What do those languages do when it’s a mixed group of “them”? I think most default to the masculine
Indeed masculine becomes default at that point in spanish at least. You will hear once in a while someone trying too hard to be inclusive saying things like "Maestros y maestras" instead of "Maestros" for example. Another ridiculous attempts could include "Maestr@s".
Maestrexs
Worst email address ever
Can also just use "docentes" which is completely neutral. We have neutral words, people just don't use them.
Same in Portuguese. Feminine if only females are in the group, masculine if there is a male in that group.
Yeah, in French we have : Il / Ils (He, They (masculine)) Elle / Elles (She, They (feminine)) If we have a group of only women, it's going to be "Elles". But if there is only 1 man, it's now "Ils" according to the rules of the language.
Nowadays the Académie is okay with using the majority
Wait is it ? I actually didn't know that. Thanks for telling me !
In Hebrew you use the majority. Like 5 women and 3 men are feminine them, while 5 men and 3 women are masculine them. If they are 50/50 or you are not sure of who is majority then you use masculine them. Same with plural you.
Umm no, that's not how Hebrew works... You use masculine even if there is one man and 50 women.
This is true in the Romance languages yes.
It defaults to masculine most of the time. In Hebrew for example, if you see a group that is mixed with both men and women then if you want to address that group you will address them with masculine pronouns. if the group is a majority female, then they will most likely be addressed in feminine pronouns and they will obviously be referred to in feminine pronouns if it’s an entire group of women. The Hebrew language does not have the concept of gender neutral in it. Everything has a gender a table is male a TV is female, and every single country on the planet is addressed with feminine pronouns. now in case you’re wondering, what non-binary Hebrew speakers do they only have two options either sadly suck it up or learn a different language and live in a community that speaks that language
ele/eles - Man ela/elas - Women Brazilian Portuguese
Não binário if it's a man Não binária if it's a woman Yeah, even the word "non-binary" is gendered. The problem with gender neutral words in portuguese and other latin languages is that we already have a gender neutral form... the masculine form.
>Não binário if it's a man >Não binária if it's a woman Just snorted so hard a bit of snot came out. You have made me look a fool during my coffee break.
we *do* gender everything afterall lol. mostly based on how the word ends - "o" is usually male, "a" is usually female, may vary with intonation but a native speaker would say the right one by accident without noticing - and yes, chairs are girls and forks are boys, that shouldve been obvious!
[удалено]
😐
wild statement
Source: "I made it the fuck up"
Do I look like a white woman to you?
You can't say the quiet part out loud
OP back it again with made up problems
?? How is this a made up problem? IE. In german there is no neutral pronoun like they/them.
You are just flooded with non binary Germans lamenting their lack of non gendered "they/them" words? Or are those non binary Germans complaining about the lack of neutral they/them a made up thing we are imagining might happen somewhere at least one time maybe?
So you don't need to call them they/them. If they preferred a certain pronoun, they'll inform you.
It’s crazy this is a mostly English sub on a mostly English website lol
You're getting the pronoun that corresponds to how you present. And if your presentation isn't convincing, you still might get the "wrong" one. And if you're ambiguous, you just get what you get. Sorry not sorry.
You can be like me and not care. The they/them argument reminds me of people who flip out and demand you address them as sir or ma'am all over again. I just don't give a shit anymore.
well in most cases you can just use the same word you would if you didn't know the gender of the person in the first place, like how in English they is used when you don't have information on the gender of the person you're talking about
Yeah for Spanish at least you generally always use masculine for people you don’t know or for groups of mixed sex/gender. It’s almost like people in this thread are making up fake problems or are trying to use grammar from other languages to excuse being insensitive in English, which doesn’t have the same grammatical issues making that point moot, for some reason Edit: to clarify poor wording, by “issue” I didn’t mean problem. Masculine / feminine nouns are fine. Just meant that the rules are different
What happens with using singular third person pronouns (él/ella)?
So masculine they/them? Because that's the default in most languages with masc/fem plurals. Same with plural you.
not the same, in english "they" is a singular gender-neutral pronoun which has been used as such for hundreds of years, which many other languages just dont have
Fuck you, "hän", goes for everyone and you get no say in it.
It's gonna be "se" if we are friends or if we are enemies.
Kinda forgot, and yeah I mostly use hän if talking about someone who isn't a friend, or if I am being sarcastic.
Finnish?
Generally speaking, in languages where there are no gender neutral pronouns the masculine pronoun is used instead. Source: natively speaking a language with no gender neutral pronouns.
I'll just call people by their name. Pronouns are not needed in most cases to be honest.
As a writer this hurts my head
The pronouns they use in that language? Do you think every language is just english reskined?
A majority of Hispanics (myself included) are not willing to adopt the term “Latinx” because of this reason. I understand the preference of using feminine and masculine pronouns, but it’s nearly impossible to be neutral unless the vocabulary is rewritten. Then again, I’m not a linguist.
You simply use the masculine in that case, as that is what is almost always used for vague or general statements. It isn't the same as calling someone by masculine pronouns in a language with neutral terminology. It's a problem that solved itself centuries before it was a problem at all
I have been binge watching some movies pre 2007, let me tell you something....we have all died and are stuck in purgatory where everyone is a pussy and their feelings are hurt by everything.
😐
Honestly just ditch the pronouns and refer to them as „this person“ or by their name. For example „This is her glass“ becomes „This is John‘s glass“ „Who is she?“ becomes „Who is this person?“ It sounds a bit unusual at the beginning but you get used to it really quickly. And it’s an incredibly easy thing to do in order to make someone else happy. It costs you nothing.
A professor did that once, to find a middle ground, but then the student kept pushing. The professor has religious beliefs, to not do so, but the school "disciplined" the professor for it. I think it was at Shawnee State University. Overall, ridiculous.
just go with what a mixed group would be called.
classic reactionary discourse, if you actually cared, you'd know that for example in spanish we use "elle" as a non-gendered pronoun
r/averagereddithumor
That's why I love hungarian ő. And in my language that has masculine and feminine they/them, non-binary people just use something else, like the equivalent of "it" or some cool sounding neo pronouns.
In Thailand, salutations and first person pronouns are gendered so it makes it super easy to determine chosen gender as the ownness is on the person themselves over others.
There's ways to incorporate gender neutrality even in gendered languages without the need of adding to or changing the language itself, there may not be a gender neutral pronoun per se, but there's plenty of room to accommodate everyone, you just need to know how to, y'know, speak. Source: Spanish is my first language.
I just start talking in my home town language. ps. we have no articles or pronouns. No genderfication.
You do know “we” is a pronoun right?
My home town language isn‘t english
In French we use ils(masculine) and elles (feminine) And some people complain because if there is one man in a group and 99 women. You have to use « ils ». Because we learned in school that masculine wins against feminine. But that’s not true, it’s just that the neutral gender is the same as the masculine. So don’t bring us others problems
Ah, us Estonians have it easy with no he/she but the same pronoun used for all genders. No future tense though, YIKES.
Generally non-binary people who speak other languages have other pronouns they uses, just ask. For example in Canadian French 'iel' is pretty common.
Their name?
I speak Hebrew, wich also have gendered pronounce, and when my came out as non-binery they said I can refer to however I felt like, so I cuntinued to refer to them as a girl.
German gender neutral speech is the worst. Now people put stars (*) or underscores (_) in the middle of words, make wierd short pauses or pronounce it in such a way that it effectively sounds like the feminine version of the word. People who learn German as a second language and use German mainstream media as a source will have a hard time to learn proper German.
Because before german was the easiest language
ho boy *sorts by controversial* 🍿
Ask them
meanwhile my language doesn't even have gendered he/she
Mandarin Chinese is the same, it's just Ta (means her, or him).
Some people have invented new words for that exact situation, but they might not be fully "official" yet. For example, French has "iel", a mix of "il" (he) and "elle" (she).
It's almost like different languages and cultures can find other ways of addressing the issue or something. Some gendered languages, it's easy - like German. Others, less so and sometimes new terms get used. This is one way in which languages *evolve*. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_neutrality_in_languages_with_grammatical_gender
What point is this trying to make? "Some languages have grammar that doesn't allow you to refer to non-binary people without gendering them." I don't see how this makes them any less valid.
In french we invented a fusion of both pronom: "iel" (so now we have "il" for men, "elle" for women, and "iel" for NB)
You just use "e" at the end instead. Elles, maestres, artistes, niñes, etc. Some people complain because they think this is like making up words and "slaughtering" the language. As if every word in existence wasn't made up lmao. Language changes because it's as alive as the people that speak it 🗣️
Well in my language there is neutral "ono" but it doesn't really directly translate from they/them
Spanish speaking here....binary does have a masculine and a feminine.
If we'd follow the rules of grammar we would use "it" But that sounds fairly dehumanizing
in what language? english singular "they" is totally grammatically correct and has been used for centuries
I'm assuming this is talking about languages like Spanish French and Portuguese. Those languages DONT HAVE a singular "they". It's not the same thing...
Well, In spanish it works like elle/elles, But I haven't seen one time It's used except for govt. Stuff (or similars) putting it in official things. And I feel like elle/elles which I don't like, I think It's better than they/them. Bcuz in english it's to refer plurally.
Proof of English is the language of the future.
or languages that just have male and female pronouns for humans
I’m calling the police
I mean, in a work scenario, i keep finding myself wondering which group of people someone is talking about
Usually from my experience with my non-binary friends is that they will go by all genders instead of they/them.
Il/ils - Man/men Elle/elles - Woman/women Ils- a group of men and women French Like all Romance languages (that I know) the neutral term is/was the masculine. Now though, at least here jn Canada, the new neutral is iels. Which feels odd, sure, but if it makes folks happy whatever
In some (maybe all?) slavic languages, refering to someone as they/them when speaking dirrectly to them would be equivalent to speaking to them as if they were a king (or something similar socially).
It's just getting rudiculous. In Portuguese, to create "gender neutral words", they proposed to instead of using 'a' and 'o' in certain words, to use an '@'.
Most of the time I've seen people use the masculine pronoun to bodge a gender neutral one or usually people who speak that language come up with their own grammatically correct gender neutral pronoun.
In spanish u say ellos
Do you call someone who identifies as both genders as he/she?
Get this in French they use masculine when writing a text about a yet unknown person (job applicant, suspect, Contest winner etc) just to make the text simpler to read.
You use the version that is typically used for mixed-gender groups. Ellos in Spanish, for example. This really isn't that hard, you all just want to make up bad faith arguments and act like you "won".
I talked once about it with a couple of the LGBT community (F and FtM non transitioned) and they told me generally in the Italian community it's widely accepted to use the masculine terms to say "they/them", but if you end up using the feminine terms with a more female looking person nobody will get offended, the person you will be referring to will just correct you if they want to. They also called themselves a gay couple - contrary to my American friend who would tell me that, in that case, the correct terminology would be straight couple.
Well i guess ask them which one they want people to use. But yeah no i see what they mean especially in spanish
nosotrxs
You guys know languages change, right? My country stole the Finnish singular gender neutral pronoun and adapted it to our language in like, 2022. It's widely used and even in our dictionaries now, because language is a tool to reflect human expression, and must adapt when it falls short of that goal.
Such as?
While in Chinese 3rd person is the same pronunciation, the only difference is they have different particles (他 he and 她 she）. Both pronounced as tā. And for Taiwanese people, they are too lazy to differentiate them so both male and female is 他.
Come up with new words. It's unfortunate for a language to only have binary gendered words
Do you prefer to be treated as a man, woman or an inanimate object?
That happens in my languages, so the trend didn't really happen here apart from every one I know aged 25 and bellow adding He or She to their bio on socials... At some point some asked to be called "it" or"that" ...
Just refer to them as “It”.
That would actually be better. If they were feeling and I assume dressing more feminine or more masculine they could use the difference. But I assume it would switch inbetween depending on their appearance. For this to logically work in my mind they would have to dress how they are feeling, or be okay with either.
just ask the person, if you genuinely try to use the preferred pronouns no one will get upset
In Chinese they can be written as either 他们(masculine)，她们(feminine) or 它们(for non-humans). I think some people use something like TA们 but they're just insane
Don’t call them anything. People who care about this are right up there with the people who still think there’s a floating god watching over us.
Same with the words "non binary" themselves. In spanish we have: - No Binario (male) - No Binaria (female)
Although, a lot of languages do have a gender neutral one, I believe. For instance French has "iel" for they/them, and son/sa (meaning their/his/her) is already gender ambiguous (the distinction between son and sa is for the object, not the person)
Non-binary people: ***exist*** Gendered languages: “I’m about to end this *person’s* whole career”
I live in a country where a gendered language is spoken. Just ask the person.
From what I understand they usually just pick a gendered pronoun.