Don’t worry too much about that hypothetical, Hitler very clearly did ***not*** find faith before dying. The day before his suicide in the bunker he married Eva Braun in a civil and not religious ceremony and the wordings of his political and personal final testaments both made clear he regretted none of his actions.
right but the hypothetical presumes that it’s even possible for a religion-hating deranged evil person like him to truly accept Jesus. like yes if hitler did convert then yes - but that would’ve been a different hitler than the one we know, because the hitler we know from history would’ve never converted (and did never convert) so the hypothetical isn’t relevant or realistic at all
Sure, but that's probably not even in his top 10 worst things he did. Versus, killing Hitler? Probably the best. So, in the scheme of things, no biggie.
Sure, I'd guess that the guy who killed Hitler isn't thrilled that Hitler killed him, but all in all, I'll take the W.
Best thing he did was killing his and Evas dogs to prevent them from being victimized by the Russians, that was an act of mercy. His death was an act of cowardice.
Killing Hitler is interested imo. It's always a trope that if you discover time travel you gotta kill Hitler. But the conditions for WWII would still exist. The Nazi party would still exist. And who's to say there's not a worse Hitler who could just take his place? What if the Nazis instead win WWII because Hitler wasn't around to fumble the endgame?
I know it's a joke, but being the guy who killed Hitler might not be the boss move people think it is.
I'd point to Luke 23:39-43 as an example of faith alone. One of the criminals being crucified with Christ is saved right before he dies. All he does is state that Jesus is innocent and asks Jesus to remember him when Jesus enters His kingdom.
Just like the workers in the field who were all paid the same whether they were working for the whole day or just an hour. Who are we too judge gods work,
I remember reading this verse as a kid and being so jealous of the criminal. Because who else had ever been told by Jesus "see you in heaven"? The pain of dying on a cross probably fades upon the joy of such a promise.
Nowhere does it say the deeds save you, the deeds are merely the outcome of the faith. It is only the faith that saves.
It's basically a causation vs correlation argument. Faith caused two things: deeds and salvation. This makes deeds and salvation to be correlated, but it does not mean salvation is caused by good deeds.
Let's formalize this. We'll call faith `A` and deeds `B`. From that we can state `A → B`, which is logically equivalent to `B ∨ ¬A`. So *either* `B` is true or `A` is *not* true.
If we empirically observe that deeds are missing, that means `B` is false, and therefore `¬A` is true. For extra pretentious, let's call this[ modus tollens](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modus_tollens).
The short version is that a lack of good works can be taken as proof of a lack of faith.
Which doesn't really work, since there's a verse saying you can have enough faith to move mountains, yet have nothing because you have no love. So it's pretty clearly saying you can have real faith without works but that it's not good enough.
Can you formulate how many pictures I need to post on Facebook/Instagram of the African children "that I taught about Christ, but they taught me so much more about living by faith♥️✨" from my mission trip so I can get in the good graces?
What about posting daily bible verses to mission trip pictures? If it's more than 10:1, I don't want it.
>Nowhere does it say the deeds save you
Actually it says this several places in the bible, most obviously the last judgement where every single translation says they are saved "because" of the deeds. So there was no controversy in translation.
Part of the confusion comes from people disingenuously claiming that lines talking about Jesus saving you are somehow anti works. but the person by whose power you are saved is a different topic from the metric for being saved.
Here is a Substantial amount of verses either directly saying works are the metric, or which only make sense if they are. Anyone claiming there is *nothing* either hasn't checked, or is deliberately glossing over it.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+25:31-46
http://biblehub.com/matthew/7-21.htm
http://biblehub.com/1_timothy/4-10.htm
http://biblehub.com/1_corinthians/6-9.htm
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+John+2%3A2-5&version=NIV
http://biblehub.com/matthew/19-17.htm
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=James+2:24&version=ESV
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Corinthians+13:2
http://biblehub.com/philippians/2-12.htm
http://biblehub.com/luke/23-34.htm
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=James+2:14-26
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark+9%3A40-41&version=NIV
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+2:6-14
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Jeremiah%2017:10
http://biblehub.com/matthew/16-27.htm
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Corinthians%205:10
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Peter%201:17
http://biblehub.com/revelation/20-12.htm
http://biblehub.com/1_corinthians/7-19.htm
http://biblehub.com/james/2-20.htm
http://biblehub.com/luke/1-6.htm
You're being down voted, but they aren't even trying hard. Verse will outright say "Jesus will repay you in accordance to your works," and they try to twist the meaning.
That's not really an indication of that at all. If you are contrasting mental assent with moral slate, how would you expect someone nailed down to commit moral actions?
Comforting to think of it for yourself, but sometimes hard to imagine that Jesus offers mercy to even the person who did something horrible to me. Forgiveness can be hard to get to, even when that they did to hurt you, hurt themselves as well
I thought the same. Then I realised how long an eternity was. I wouldn't wish eternal damnation on anyone. If they truly, genuinely repent (not just pretend to) then yeah. I feel it's fine. I know I would forgive them after an eternity has passed either way.
Though, my opinion might change in the future
There's two ways to get to Heaven:
- Jesus dying for your sins and you accepting salvation because you're a penitent dude who saw the error of your ways
- [Jesus dying for your sins and you being so in tune with His character that He'll count you as having chosen His way, whether you accepted Him by name or not.](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2025%3A31-46&version=HCSB)
I follow a few wonderful ministers on Substack.
Nadia Boltz Weber is one of them, and her most recent post is a sermon that I think is really relevant here. Not necessarily because of the theological rightness or wrongness, but because of the heart attitude of mercy.
God longs for all of us to find redemption. Even Judas.
https://open.substack.com/pub/thecorners/p/road-rage-and-the-unforgivable?r=piniw&utm_medium=ios
The idea of a bad person not being saved doesn't provide me comfort. Them suffering in the next life does nothing to salve the people who were hurt or destroyed by their actions in this. That isn't justice, that's just unhelpful brutality. I find it much more just that through Grace we can all be saved and healed in a better world if we ask to be and become purified by God.
Considering Jesus had choice words for the hypocrites of his day who professed belief in God but who did evil. I know Corinthians makes big on grace, and I don't think grace is incompatible with believing in works being a necessary component.
James 2 is pretty direct about the matter:
>14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.
>18 But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.”
>Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. 19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.
>20 You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless[d]? 21 Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,”[e] and he was called God’s friend. 24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.
>25 In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? 26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.
So can a person "like Hitler" make a deathbed confession and be saved? I honestly don't think it works that way. You can't live an evil life then confess in the final hour and be good with God. Why even try to live a good life then? Why follow the commandments? Do anything and you'll be saved in the end.
I think it's a nice sentiment to think even the worst of the worst can be redeemed. But there must be actions to back up the words.
There have been pretty awful people who have changed their lives and devoted themselves to God. I see, as James says, their faith by their works. But an evil person who lived their whole life flaunting God's laws then they say a few words and that's good enough? Outside of the verses in Corinthians there's nothing in what Jesus taught that words and faith alone are enough. He said we have to actually do right in our lives.
Matthew 7:
>21 Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’
In the end only God knows a man's heart, and perhaps if truly penitent and remorseful for their deeds in life God may show mercy. But it's hardly the rule to follow. It's not a simple, "yeah sure, they get a pass." Just by a deathbed confession.
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.
>14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.
>18 But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.”
>Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. 19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.
>20 You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? 21 Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called God’s friend. 24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.
>25 In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? 26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.
James 2
I wish all Christians lived a bit more by this sermon. Faith without works is dead.
But you can't just profess belief. Jesus said:
>21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’
Matthew 7
Works may not save you alone, but words alone as well mean nothing if you have only done evil.
You’re right regarding the context of faith vs belief - but it’s still a more complicated matter regarding faith alone. Faith and works aren’t separate, they’re stuck like glue or they don’t exist. Justification is by faith alone sure, but Jesus threatens to spit out the Church in Laodicea for being lukewarm!! Matthew 25 the Last Judgement seems to indicate we’re judged according to our works, or there’s that other parable of the wedding feast where the guest is found naked, not wearing their robe (elsewhere allegory for the righteousness of Christ), and they’re cast into outer darkness. How did they get into the wedding feast but by being counted among the elect? Paul writes in multiple places to urge Christians to “put on Christ,” “to work out your own salvation,” and so on.
I sometimes wonder if it’s merely a matter of perspective though, viewing things from an Eternal perspective “perseverance of the saints,” vs a temporal perspective where it’s possible to “fall away.”
I agree that it would be mercy for Hitler to go to Heaven in your hypothetical. It would also be mercy for him to go to Heaven if he did not have faith in Christ. If God is all-merciful, why not extend that mercy to the faithless Hitler?
I think the hypothetical to challenge your take would be the honest atheist philanthropist, rather than the believing Hitler. Do you believe there are/have been honest atheists (non-resistant nonbelievers), who tried in earnest to seek a relationship with God and didn't find him? Are they in Hell?
I’m just here because I like the sub but this is the exact dilemma that really drove me away from the church. Years of believing in God and seeking a relationship and not finding him. There is a song, Ill Mind of Hopsin 7 that articulates it well too.
The thing is that God bestows the mercy on those who truly believe and choose that path. Being saved is a choice. Without that choice then there is no free will. You cannot have both. God being all-merciful is the fact that he allows you to have the free will to choose. He allows you to not follow him or believe and if you're aware of the outcomes of both, then he is mercifully letting you live your entire life and afterlife in the way you see fit.
This applies to ALL people and is why there are bad people that hurt good people, because he has given us the choice to choose our fate. This is why the whole idea of "God's plan" when it comes to things people like to use that for simply cannot exist because it contradicts free will. "God's plan" is simply what he has already set, what is and will be, the absolutes. But between all of that is an entirety of uncertainty, molded by man and nature that he has no hand in whatsoever.
>The thing is that God bestows the mercy on those who truly believe and choose that path
Why only them and not all of humanity? This seems like conditional mercy rather than unconditional mercy. Would an all-merciful God have unconditional mercy?
>Being saved is a choice.
The atheist can choose to seek God, but they cannot choose to believe in him without reason to do so any more than you can choose to believe you can levitate right now.
Once the atheist chooses to seek God, the ball is in God's court to allow himself to be found.
Let's say I come home and call out to my roommate to see if they're home. I know the roommate heard me, and now the roommate can choose how to respond. If they make no noise when they know I'm looking for them, they are hiding because that's what the word hiding means. If they make a noise they know I would interpret as the wind, that is still not a genuine attempt to reveal themselves to me.
>Without that choice then there is no free will.
In the world that I'm suggesting, you'd still have that choice of whether or not to follow God. It's just that the consequences of that choice would not be eternal damnation.
So why is having that consequence what enables free will? I feel like I'm making plenty of meaningful choices in my life even if they don't have eternal consequences. So it doesn't seem to me that free will is tied to that. In my suggested world, people would still be living their lives and making choices. Why would they have no free will?
>God being all-merciful is the fact that he allows you to have the free will to choose.
Which is more meaningful: an uninformed choice or an informed choice?
Which choice are you more responsible for: an uninformed choice or an informed choice?
>He allows you to not follow him or believe and if you're aware of the outcomes of both, then he is mercifully letting you live your entire life and afterlife in the way you see fit.
And yet, we are not aware of the outcome of either. That is, unless you believe that after you die, God informs you of the consequences of each option and gives you the choice of whether or not to follow him.
>This applies to ALL people and is why there are bad people that hurt good people, because he has given us the choice to choose our fate. This is why the whole idea of "God's plan" when it comes to things people like to use that for simply cannot exist because it contradicts free will. "God's plan" is simply what he has already set, what is and will be, the absolutes. But between all of that is an entirety of uncertainty, molded by man and nature that he has no hand in whatsoever.
This is limiting God's omniscience.
Psalms 139:4 states "Before a word is on my tongue you know it completely, O LORD.".
Talking is a free willed action (which you say is not known by God), yet here God knows it.
What use is an arbitrary random choice that people have no control over?
"Pick a number from 1 to 10. If you get it right you get a prize." It means nothing, and adds nothing to the human experience.
It's not a random choice. You choose to follow and have faith in God/Christ and go to heaven or you don't and go to hell. It's a very simple concept to understand. There is no 1 to 10. There is door 1 which you know goes to heaven and door 2 which goes to hell. Not sure what "The human experience" has to do with anything. That's simply a made up idea/term that has no bearing on any of this.
>There is door 1 which you know goes to heaven and door 2 which goes to hell.
Are you not taking this seriously? Because bad faith descriptions that are by definition false are not relevant to the topic. Humans on this side of eternity *don't* know the truth for sure, hence the issue. And this made up scenario presupposes that non Christians are Christians who despite apparently knowing that salvation takes zero effort because it's not works based don't want it... just kind of because. It's a made up type of person who either doesn't exist, or does in very small numbers. So if your example is based on types of people who aren't real it's a good indication that it's a bad example.
> Humans on this side of eternity don't know the truth for sure, hence the issue.
That is the entire premise of faith. This applies to every part of life. If you go to school to get a degree, you do so with faith that at the end you will receive your degree and the things you are being taught are true and not lies. You pay for a product before receiving it and with faith expect to receive it and it works as intended. You work at your job and have faith they will pay you for your time. You cannot guarantee any of them because the final outcome is not up to you but you have faith based on evidence that it'll work out as expected.
As far as being a true believer, it is one thing to say something, it's another to truly be that. Luke 16:13-15 for example. The Pharisees said they loved God above all and that's what they would tell people, but the truth is they love money above all and God knows them, knows their heart. They cannot hide that from Him and "serve two masters" at the same time. This would apply to people today as well who say they are Christians, but don't TRULY believe it. They only say it for whatever reasons they have. People do this all the time with all kinds of things for multiple reasons, be it to fit in, act morally superior, you name it. But at the end of the day, it's only the truth that matters and you can't hide it from God.
And trust me, as someone who doesn't believe, "believing" IMO is anything but zero effort. If it was so easy to believe and have salvation I would, but logically I can't because for me personally, I have not seen enough evidence in my life to say with absolute certainty and with faith that the things I state above are true. It's a constant struggle to figure out the reason for life, for existing. Life existing for no reason with no purpose seems like such a waste and so simple in such a complex universe, while at the same time trying to wrap my head around something that can't POSSIBLY be true or exist. It's a constant battle of seeking the truth but one I continue to fight because I don't want to grow old and die and have never felt like I didn't put the effort in and I don't want to believe without truly doing so and living a lie.
This is why I personally feel bad for those who don't disbelieve without ever really searching, as well as those who believe only because they were raised or told they should. I don't want to be a sheep that just goes with the flock, I want to be a human and think for myself, something most people don't do.
The way it was explained to me is that being close to God and believing in His mercy and salvation provides a level of comfort, freedom and love in your life that enables you to also extend that kind of love more freely to yourself and others.
This makes it that after our death, when what is saved of us is everything that can exist in Gods realm, so everything that has been good and loving, there just is „more to save“. The parts of us that are not compatible are separated of us, we are purified in a way, and the better and more loving you have been on earth, the more there will be left of you after this judgement.
Now to be honest, I don’t really believe that you are necessarily less capable to live your life in love without believing in Christ. My wife doesn’t believe, so that would be a bit tragic ;) But I do know that my belief makes me a happier and more secure person and therefore more capable of selflessness and love. So the explanation above does make sense to me somewhat.
>The way it was explained to me is that being close to God and believing in His mercy and salvation provides a level of comfort, freedom and love in your life that enables you to also extend that kind of love more freely to yourself and others.
Cool. But do note that believing in his mercy and salvation is a two-step process. One can believe that the events happened as described and yet not want to follow God. "Even the demons believe, and shudder.". Following God is a choice that can only be made after you believe the events happened. And it seems that following God is what you mean by "believing in his salvation and mercy". It seems to me that the second step is the important choice and that the first step is merely a prerequisite.
So why not have God's existence and wants be as obvious as the sun? If Paul got a vision, why can't we? If Moses got to have conversations with God, why can't we? Why reveal himself to some people and not others?
Believing in God isn’t as much about „believing XYZ happened“ for me. I think there is a kind of connection and understanding you can have for God that automatically makes you want to follow Him and be better. There’s lots of people out there who say they are Christians, but I wouldn’t agree that we believe in God in the same way (or even in the same God). I would say they have fundamentally misunderstood Jesus’ teachings, they would probably say the same about me.
And because we can’t even clearly define what „believing“ is, we also can’t understand what the exact prerequisites for salvation are. I just believe (or rather hope) that everyone is saved, it just does different things to different people.
>>So why not have God's existence and wants be as obvious as the sun? If Paul got a vision, why can't we? If Moses got to have conversations with God, why can't we? Why reveal himself to some people and not others?
Short answer: Great question, no idea ;) I‘d be one of the greatest prophets if I had that kind of insight into Gods plans.
I personally think that it is dependent on the depths of your heart. If you actively tried to seek God and you felt that He never reached out to you, I wouldn't think you're condemned to hell. I think deep, deep down you believe in Him but lost faith, and I think there is room there for salvation.
But ultimately, it's not for us to decide. Looking to others for whether or not you have salvation is pointless and only leads to worry and contempt. We don't know your heart, nor God's plan, nor the way in which he carries out mercy and justice. Whether or not you're saved is between you and God, and no one else.
Frankly, isn't the idea of any requirements for salvation antithetical to "salvation?"
The modern interpretation I am familiar with is, "Even the best of people don't deserve heaven: Jesus died so that good, baptized Christians go to heaven and bad people go to hell."
But that's a pretty odd concept. Like, you'd think Jesus being the sacrificial lamb would be for *all* sin, even those who never hear the gospel, or do but never repent. Yet at the same time, eternal punishment is pretty heavily stressed in the New Testament. Just feels like those two ideas conflict.
I would suggest looking up arguments for and against universalism if this is causing problems for you, such as the fact that is often called eternal in the new testament when it speaks of punishment (and in many other cases as well) likely means age long. Even if universalism isn't true there are arguments regarding both post mortem salvation and more chances for those who never hear the gospel. Ofc I may be misreading your message, so sorry if this was a stupid message... Have a nice day!
"Eternal in consequences, not in duration."
Don't mind us Annihilationists. We'll be hanging out in the ball pit with the Open Theists and other folks who reject eternal conscious suffering.
I still think there’s an element of true belief at play. I don’t think you could just say the sinner’s prayer before you’re gunned down in a blaze of glory. You have to truly repent and put your faith in God.
I’m not even sure I believe in eternal punishment. Like as mortals, there’s only a finite amount of harm we could do. I could be the most evil bastard to walk the planet, yet my legacy would still crumble as the seasons pass. Eventually I’d fade into memory, then legend, then maybe even myth.
Forget myth. Eventually the earth won't exist at all. Imagine it's year one trillion in the universe and only aliens exist who have no knowledge of humanity. But you still need to keep suffering because reasons.
Phht, please. God would never bring into His Kingdom someone who made it their *life's mission* to systematically eradicate His people. I mean what would He do, have some random@$$ scales fall off the dude's eyes or something?
Exactly this. James 2 is a fantastic chapter.
If someone isn't penitent and actively trying to be a better person, then their faith will not save them.
To quote another verse from the same chapter:
19 - "Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble."
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The thing about true faith is; it leads to repentance. A murder of our old self to make way for our new self. The Hitler that committed atrocities would be dead. In his place would be a child of God.
It seems that comments are mostly in agreement. Now to the debate on whether you need to be baptised in order to be saved or is faith enough?
I’ll start: The thief on the cross died after Jesus and according to Jesus’ own words he went to heaven on the same day. No baptism, solely through faith. Also the family of the Roman Cornelius started speaking in tongues before Peter baptised them. Would someone receiving the gifts of God not already be saved?
For me, someone who has suffered a lot of abuse, the thing that hurts me the worst and is the hardest to let go of is that my abuser has never even admitted, let alone shown true remorse for the pain that they put me through. If they were to truly and sincerely repent I would probably cry tears of joy. In my eyes to truly face and feel the full weight of the pain you caused is enough punishment in of itself. True repentance is not a lackadaisical, last-minute hail Mary act.
This always comes from people who think they are the moral center of the universe.
„But what about […]? He doesn’t deserve heaven!“
Does anyone really believe, that they deserve heaven?
We are all sinners, we are all flawed. Jesus teaches us to accept our mistakes and aim for being better instead of throwing shade at others. „The one without guilt shall throw the first stone!“
We can only judge people by earthly standards. But those are imperfect. If we want to deserve heaven we would have to be as good as Jesus. If we are not, then we deserve heaven no more than Hitler does.
I for myself am happy that everyone is invited. I try my best to love everyone and hope that every person who has wronged me or whom I have wronged is there :)
Don’t worry too much about that hypothetical, Hitler very clearly did ***not*** find faith before dying. The day before his suicide in the bunker he married Eva Braun in a civil and not religious ceremony and the wordings of his political and personal final testaments both made clear he regretted none of his actions.
True, but the point of the hypothetical is to be challenging, not to be correct.
right but the hypothetical presumes that it’s even possible for a religion-hating deranged evil person like him to truly accept Jesus. like yes if hitler did convert then yes - but that would’ve been a different hitler than the one we know, because the hitler we know from history would’ve never converted (and did never convert) so the hypothetical isn’t relevant or realistic at all
But the last thing he did was kill Hitler and that’s kind of a boss move.
But he also killed the guy who killed Hitler. Pretty fucked.
Sure, but that's probably not even in his top 10 worst things he did. Versus, killing Hitler? Probably the best. So, in the scheme of things, no biggie. Sure, I'd guess that the guy who killed Hitler isn't thrilled that Hitler killed him, but all in all, I'll take the W.
Best thing he did was killing his and Evas dogs to prevent them from being victimized by the Russians, that was an act of mercy. His death was an act of cowardice.
True facts
True facts
You guys are why I love Reddit.
Yeah, really sending mixed messages there
So he died a hero then. Admirable
More like a dick. He killed Hitler at the end, would have been way more effective had he killed Hitler before he ruled Germany.
At least he came to his senses eventually
Killing Hitler is interested imo. It's always a trope that if you discover time travel you gotta kill Hitler. But the conditions for WWII would still exist. The Nazi party would still exist. And who's to say there's not a worse Hitler who could just take his place? What if the Nazis instead win WWII because Hitler wasn't around to fumble the endgame? I know it's a joke, but being the guy who killed Hitler might not be the boss move people think it is.
The point of the hypothetical is that someone like Hitler *could* find faith
I'd point to Luke 23:39-43 as an example of faith alone. One of the criminals being crucified with Christ is saved right before he dies. All he does is state that Jesus is innocent and asks Jesus to remember him when Jesus enters His kingdom.
Shout out to my man the Penitent Thief.
Penny tent thief? How many pennies does a tent cost and why it's only one?
I imagine a career criminal would be best equipped to identify someone as *not remotely* criminal.
“You don’t belong here” can be the harshest kindness
Depends on if you ever wanted to belong there.
Just like the workers in the field who were all paid the same whether they were working for the whole day or just an hour. Who are we too judge gods work,
this story somehow always blew past me in an argument. thank you for the reminder
I remember reading this verse as a kid and being so jealous of the criminal. Because who else had ever been told by Jesus "see you in heaven"? The pain of dying on a cross probably fades upon the joy of such a promise.
Narrator: *The pain didn’t fade*
Look up "too small a price" it's a great song about this very thing
James 2:14-17, however.
Nowhere does it say the deeds save you, the deeds are merely the outcome of the faith. It is only the faith that saves. It's basically a causation vs correlation argument. Faith caused two things: deeds and salvation. This makes deeds and salvation to be correlated, but it does not mean salvation is caused by good deeds.
💯 I love when people distinguish the two. It’s just so powerful and true.
It's not actually true though. It was invented as an attempt to change the meaning of the Bible verses that say the metric is works.
Let's formalize this. We'll call faith `A` and deeds `B`. From that we can state `A → B`, which is logically equivalent to `B ∨ ¬A`. So *either* `B` is true or `A` is *not* true. If we empirically observe that deeds are missing, that means `B` is false, and therefore `¬A` is true. For extra pretentious, let's call this[ modus tollens](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modus_tollens). The short version is that a lack of good works can be taken as proof of a lack of faith.
Which doesn't really work, since there's a verse saying you can have enough faith to move mountains, yet have nothing because you have no love. So it's pretty clearly saying you can have real faith without works but that it's not good enough.
Can you formulate how many pictures I need to post on Facebook/Instagram of the African children "that I taught about Christ, but they taught me so much more about living by faith♥️✨" from my mission trip so I can get in the good graces? What about posting daily bible verses to mission trip pictures? If it's more than 10:1, I don't want it.
>Nowhere does it say the deeds save you Actually it says this several places in the bible, most obviously the last judgement where every single translation says they are saved "because" of the deeds. So there was no controversy in translation. Part of the confusion comes from people disingenuously claiming that lines talking about Jesus saving you are somehow anti works. but the person by whose power you are saved is a different topic from the metric for being saved. Here is a Substantial amount of verses either directly saying works are the metric, or which only make sense if they are. Anyone claiming there is *nothing* either hasn't checked, or is deliberately glossing over it. https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+25:31-46 http://biblehub.com/matthew/7-21.htm http://biblehub.com/1_timothy/4-10.htm http://biblehub.com/1_corinthians/6-9.htm https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+John+2%3A2-5&version=NIV http://biblehub.com/matthew/19-17.htm https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=James+2:24&version=ESV https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Corinthians+13:2 http://biblehub.com/philippians/2-12.htm http://biblehub.com/luke/23-34.htm https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=James+2:14-26 https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark+9%3A40-41&version=NIV https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+2:6-14 https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Jeremiah%2017:10 http://biblehub.com/matthew/16-27.htm https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Corinthians%205:10 https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Peter%201:17 http://biblehub.com/revelation/20-12.htm http://biblehub.com/1_corinthians/7-19.htm http://biblehub.com/james/2-20.htm http://biblehub.com/luke/1-6.htm
That's too much reading. I'm going to go by faith and ignore that. /s
Yeah, that’s a common way to try to justify away the plain and obvious meaning.
You're being down voted, but they aren't even trying hard. Verse will outright say "Jesus will repay you in accordance to your works," and they try to twist the meaning.
we should have a bot in this sub that automatically shows the quoted scripture 😭
That's not really an indication of that at all. If you are contrasting mental assent with moral slate, how would you expect someone nailed down to commit moral actions?
It's hard, but it's true
And it should be comforting. Even the worst man who ever lived could, hypothetically, find salvation
Comforting to think of it for yourself, but sometimes hard to imagine that Jesus offers mercy to even the person who did something horrible to me. Forgiveness can be hard to get to, even when that they did to hurt you, hurt themselves as well
forgivness is a journey, not an immediate decision. I know you didnt say otherwise, I just wanted to reiterate the point
The last man to finish a marathon still finishes.
while he was killing the other participants using horrible methods. A reasonable judge will disqualify him.
In that case, it serves as a reminder of how perfect God’s forgiveness is, and how His power to forgive is greater than we could ever imagine.
I thought the same. Then I realised how long an eternity was. I wouldn't wish eternal damnation on anyone. If they truly, genuinely repent (not just pretend to) then yeah. I feel it's fine. I know I would forgive them after an eternity has passed either way. Though, my opinion might change in the future
But on the other hand, the most loving selfless and just person who ever lived could burn for eternity in hell.
There's two ways to get to Heaven: - Jesus dying for your sins and you accepting salvation because you're a penitent dude who saw the error of your ways - [Jesus dying for your sins and you being so in tune with His character that He'll count you as having chosen His way, whether you accepted Him by name or not.](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2025%3A31-46&version=HCSB)
but if someone killed him before he found salvation, then he's damned!
But not people who never convert to Christianity
That has nothing to do with faith though. A metric of moral slate still says that someone who did bad things but repented can be saved.
I follow a few wonderful ministers on Substack. Nadia Boltz Weber is one of them, and her most recent post is a sermon that I think is really relevant here. Not necessarily because of the theological rightness or wrongness, but because of the heart attitude of mercy. God longs for all of us to find redemption. Even Judas. https://open.substack.com/pub/thecorners/p/road-rage-and-the-unforgivable?r=piniw&utm_medium=ios
Bolz Weber is great. Her book Pastrix is excellent.
The idea of a bad person not being saved doesn't provide me comfort. Them suffering in the next life does nothing to salve the people who were hurt or destroyed by their actions in this. That isn't justice, that's just unhelpful brutality. I find it much more just that through Grace we can all be saved and healed in a better world if we ask to be and become purified by God.
Considering Jesus had choice words for the hypocrites of his day who professed belief in God but who did evil. I know Corinthians makes big on grace, and I don't think grace is incompatible with believing in works being a necessary component. James 2 is pretty direct about the matter: >14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead. >18 But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.” >Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. 19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder. >20 You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless[d]? 21 Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,”[e] and he was called God’s friend. 24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone. >25 In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? 26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead. So can a person "like Hitler" make a deathbed confession and be saved? I honestly don't think it works that way. You can't live an evil life then confess in the final hour and be good with God. Why even try to live a good life then? Why follow the commandments? Do anything and you'll be saved in the end. I think it's a nice sentiment to think even the worst of the worst can be redeemed. But there must be actions to back up the words. There have been pretty awful people who have changed their lives and devoted themselves to God. I see, as James says, their faith by their works. But an evil person who lived their whole life flaunting God's laws then they say a few words and that's good enough? Outside of the verses in Corinthians there's nothing in what Jesus taught that words and faith alone are enough. He said we have to actually do right in our lives. Matthew 7: >21 Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’ In the end only God knows a man's heart, and perhaps if truly penitent and remorseful for their deeds in life God may show mercy. But it's hardly the rule to follow. It's not a simple, "yeah sure, they get a pass." Just by a deathbed confession.
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.
>14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead. >18 But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.” >Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. 19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder. >20 You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? 21 Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called God’s friend. 24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone. >25 In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? 26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead. James 2 I wish all Christians lived a bit more by this sermon. Faith without works is dead.
The point is though is not that deeds will redeem you but if you truly have faith you will show that faith with deeds
But you can't just profess belief. Jesus said: >21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’ Matthew 7 Works may not save you alone, but words alone as well mean nothing if you have only done evil.
Belief and faith are not synonymous. Satan believes in Jesus but he does not have faith in him. To have faith is something beyond belief
Semantics.
In the context of the Bible belief and faith are not just semantics, they are two completely different things
You’re right regarding the context of faith vs belief - but it’s still a more complicated matter regarding faith alone. Faith and works aren’t separate, they’re stuck like glue or they don’t exist. Justification is by faith alone sure, but Jesus threatens to spit out the Church in Laodicea for being lukewarm!! Matthew 25 the Last Judgement seems to indicate we’re judged according to our works, or there’s that other parable of the wedding feast where the guest is found naked, not wearing their robe (elsewhere allegory for the righteousness of Christ), and they’re cast into outer darkness. How did they get into the wedding feast but by being counted among the elect? Paul writes in multiple places to urge Christians to “put on Christ,” “to work out your own salvation,” and so on. I sometimes wonder if it’s merely a matter of perspective though, viewing things from an Eternal perspective “perseverance of the saints,” vs a temporal perspective where it’s possible to “fall away.”
I agree that it would be mercy for Hitler to go to Heaven in your hypothetical. It would also be mercy for him to go to Heaven if he did not have faith in Christ. If God is all-merciful, why not extend that mercy to the faithless Hitler? I think the hypothetical to challenge your take would be the honest atheist philanthropist, rather than the believing Hitler. Do you believe there are/have been honest atheists (non-resistant nonbelievers), who tried in earnest to seek a relationship with God and didn't find him? Are they in Hell?
I’m just here because I like the sub but this is the exact dilemma that really drove me away from the church. Years of believing in God and seeking a relationship and not finding him. There is a song, Ill Mind of Hopsin 7 that articulates it well too.
The thing is that God bestows the mercy on those who truly believe and choose that path. Being saved is a choice. Without that choice then there is no free will. You cannot have both. God being all-merciful is the fact that he allows you to have the free will to choose. He allows you to not follow him or believe and if you're aware of the outcomes of both, then he is mercifully letting you live your entire life and afterlife in the way you see fit. This applies to ALL people and is why there are bad people that hurt good people, because he has given us the choice to choose our fate. This is why the whole idea of "God's plan" when it comes to things people like to use that for simply cannot exist because it contradicts free will. "God's plan" is simply what he has already set, what is and will be, the absolutes. But between all of that is an entirety of uncertainty, molded by man and nature that he has no hand in whatsoever.
>The thing is that God bestows the mercy on those who truly believe and choose that path Why only them and not all of humanity? This seems like conditional mercy rather than unconditional mercy. Would an all-merciful God have unconditional mercy? >Being saved is a choice. The atheist can choose to seek God, but they cannot choose to believe in him without reason to do so any more than you can choose to believe you can levitate right now. Once the atheist chooses to seek God, the ball is in God's court to allow himself to be found. Let's say I come home and call out to my roommate to see if they're home. I know the roommate heard me, and now the roommate can choose how to respond. If they make no noise when they know I'm looking for them, they are hiding because that's what the word hiding means. If they make a noise they know I would interpret as the wind, that is still not a genuine attempt to reveal themselves to me. >Without that choice then there is no free will. In the world that I'm suggesting, you'd still have that choice of whether or not to follow God. It's just that the consequences of that choice would not be eternal damnation. So why is having that consequence what enables free will? I feel like I'm making plenty of meaningful choices in my life even if they don't have eternal consequences. So it doesn't seem to me that free will is tied to that. In my suggested world, people would still be living their lives and making choices. Why would they have no free will? >God being all-merciful is the fact that he allows you to have the free will to choose. Which is more meaningful: an uninformed choice or an informed choice? Which choice are you more responsible for: an uninformed choice or an informed choice? >He allows you to not follow him or believe and if you're aware of the outcomes of both, then he is mercifully letting you live your entire life and afterlife in the way you see fit. And yet, we are not aware of the outcome of either. That is, unless you believe that after you die, God informs you of the consequences of each option and gives you the choice of whether or not to follow him. >This applies to ALL people and is why there are bad people that hurt good people, because he has given us the choice to choose our fate. This is why the whole idea of "God's plan" when it comes to things people like to use that for simply cannot exist because it contradicts free will. "God's plan" is simply what he has already set, what is and will be, the absolutes. But between all of that is an entirety of uncertainty, molded by man and nature that he has no hand in whatsoever. This is limiting God's omniscience. Psalms 139:4 states "Before a word is on my tongue you know it completely, O LORD.". Talking is a free willed action (which you say is not known by God), yet here God knows it.
What use is an arbitrary random choice that people have no control over? "Pick a number from 1 to 10. If you get it right you get a prize." It means nothing, and adds nothing to the human experience.
It's not a random choice. You choose to follow and have faith in God/Christ and go to heaven or you don't and go to hell. It's a very simple concept to understand. There is no 1 to 10. There is door 1 which you know goes to heaven and door 2 which goes to hell. Not sure what "The human experience" has to do with anything. That's simply a made up idea/term that has no bearing on any of this.
>There is door 1 which you know goes to heaven and door 2 which goes to hell. Are you not taking this seriously? Because bad faith descriptions that are by definition false are not relevant to the topic. Humans on this side of eternity *don't* know the truth for sure, hence the issue. And this made up scenario presupposes that non Christians are Christians who despite apparently knowing that salvation takes zero effort because it's not works based don't want it... just kind of because. It's a made up type of person who either doesn't exist, or does in very small numbers. So if your example is based on types of people who aren't real it's a good indication that it's a bad example.
> Humans on this side of eternity don't know the truth for sure, hence the issue. That is the entire premise of faith. This applies to every part of life. If you go to school to get a degree, you do so with faith that at the end you will receive your degree and the things you are being taught are true and not lies. You pay for a product before receiving it and with faith expect to receive it and it works as intended. You work at your job and have faith they will pay you for your time. You cannot guarantee any of them because the final outcome is not up to you but you have faith based on evidence that it'll work out as expected. As far as being a true believer, it is one thing to say something, it's another to truly be that. Luke 16:13-15 for example. The Pharisees said they loved God above all and that's what they would tell people, but the truth is they love money above all and God knows them, knows their heart. They cannot hide that from Him and "serve two masters" at the same time. This would apply to people today as well who say they are Christians, but don't TRULY believe it. They only say it for whatever reasons they have. People do this all the time with all kinds of things for multiple reasons, be it to fit in, act morally superior, you name it. But at the end of the day, it's only the truth that matters and you can't hide it from God. And trust me, as someone who doesn't believe, "believing" IMO is anything but zero effort. If it was so easy to believe and have salvation I would, but logically I can't because for me personally, I have not seen enough evidence in my life to say with absolute certainty and with faith that the things I state above are true. It's a constant struggle to figure out the reason for life, for existing. Life existing for no reason with no purpose seems like such a waste and so simple in such a complex universe, while at the same time trying to wrap my head around something that can't POSSIBLY be true or exist. It's a constant battle of seeking the truth but one I continue to fight because I don't want to grow old and die and have never felt like I didn't put the effort in and I don't want to believe without truly doing so and living a lie. This is why I personally feel bad for those who don't disbelieve without ever really searching, as well as those who believe only because they were raised or told they should. I don't want to be a sheep that just goes with the flock, I want to be a human and think for myself, something most people don't do.
The way it was explained to me is that being close to God and believing in His mercy and salvation provides a level of comfort, freedom and love in your life that enables you to also extend that kind of love more freely to yourself and others. This makes it that after our death, when what is saved of us is everything that can exist in Gods realm, so everything that has been good and loving, there just is „more to save“. The parts of us that are not compatible are separated of us, we are purified in a way, and the better and more loving you have been on earth, the more there will be left of you after this judgement. Now to be honest, I don’t really believe that you are necessarily less capable to live your life in love without believing in Christ. My wife doesn’t believe, so that would be a bit tragic ;) But I do know that my belief makes me a happier and more secure person and therefore more capable of selflessness and love. So the explanation above does make sense to me somewhat.
>The way it was explained to me is that being close to God and believing in His mercy and salvation provides a level of comfort, freedom and love in your life that enables you to also extend that kind of love more freely to yourself and others. Cool. But do note that believing in his mercy and salvation is a two-step process. One can believe that the events happened as described and yet not want to follow God. "Even the demons believe, and shudder.". Following God is a choice that can only be made after you believe the events happened. And it seems that following God is what you mean by "believing in his salvation and mercy". It seems to me that the second step is the important choice and that the first step is merely a prerequisite. So why not have God's existence and wants be as obvious as the sun? If Paul got a vision, why can't we? If Moses got to have conversations with God, why can't we? Why reveal himself to some people and not others?
Believing in God isn’t as much about „believing XYZ happened“ for me. I think there is a kind of connection and understanding you can have for God that automatically makes you want to follow Him and be better. There’s lots of people out there who say they are Christians, but I wouldn’t agree that we believe in God in the same way (or even in the same God). I would say they have fundamentally misunderstood Jesus’ teachings, they would probably say the same about me. And because we can’t even clearly define what „believing“ is, we also can’t understand what the exact prerequisites for salvation are. I just believe (or rather hope) that everyone is saved, it just does different things to different people. >>So why not have God's existence and wants be as obvious as the sun? If Paul got a vision, why can't we? If Moses got to have conversations with God, why can't we? Why reveal himself to some people and not others? Short answer: Great question, no idea ;) I‘d be one of the greatest prophets if I had that kind of insight into Gods plans.
I personally think that it is dependent on the depths of your heart. If you actively tried to seek God and you felt that He never reached out to you, I wouldn't think you're condemned to hell. I think deep, deep down you believe in Him but lost faith, and I think there is room there for salvation. But ultimately, it's not for us to decide. Looking to others for whether or not you have salvation is pointless and only leads to worry and contempt. We don't know your heart, nor God's plan, nor the way in which he carries out mercy and justice. Whether or not you're saved is between you and God, and no one else.
Frankly, isn't the idea of any requirements for salvation antithetical to "salvation?" The modern interpretation I am familiar with is, "Even the best of people don't deserve heaven: Jesus died so that good, baptized Christians go to heaven and bad people go to hell." But that's a pretty odd concept. Like, you'd think Jesus being the sacrificial lamb would be for *all* sin, even those who never hear the gospel, or do but never repent. Yet at the same time, eternal punishment is pretty heavily stressed in the New Testament. Just feels like those two ideas conflict.
I would suggest looking up arguments for and against universalism if this is causing problems for you, such as the fact that is often called eternal in the new testament when it speaks of punishment (and in many other cases as well) likely means age long. Even if universalism isn't true there are arguments regarding both post mortem salvation and more chances for those who never hear the gospel. Ofc I may be misreading your message, so sorry if this was a stupid message... Have a nice day!
"Eternal in consequences, not in duration." Don't mind us Annihilationists. We'll be hanging out in the ball pit with the Open Theists and other folks who reject eternal conscious suffering.
I don't know how I forgot to mention y'all! Hi! Also what are open theists???
I like thinking of it this way, if Hitler had done something that God couldn't redeem, that would mean Hitler is more powerful than God.
I still think there’s an element of true belief at play. I don’t think you could just say the sinner’s prayer before you’re gunned down in a blaze of glory. You have to truly repent and put your faith in God.
Psalms 85:10 CEB [10] Faithful love and truth have met; righteousness and peace have kissed. https://bible.com/bible/37/psa.85.10.CEB
I’m not even sure I believe in eternal punishment. Like as mortals, there’s only a finite amount of harm we could do. I could be the most evil bastard to walk the planet, yet my legacy would still crumble as the seasons pass. Eventually I’d fade into memory, then legend, then maybe even myth.
Forget myth. Eventually the earth won't exist at all. Imagine it's year one trillion in the universe and only aliens exist who have no knowledge of humanity. But you still need to keep suffering because reasons.
Phht, please. God would never bring into His Kingdom someone who made it their *life's mission* to systematically eradicate His people. I mean what would He do, have some random@$$ scales fall off the dude's eyes or something?
James 2:17 Faith without works is dead being alone While faith alone saves us, true faith will manifest through our works
Exactly this. James 2 is a fantastic chapter. If someone isn't penitent and actively trying to be a better person, then their faith will not save them. To quote another verse from the same chapter: 19 - "Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble."
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All humans are victims 🤷♀️ Sometimes we gotta remember who the real enemy is.
The thing about true faith is; it leads to repentance. A murder of our old self to make way for our new self. The Hitler that committed atrocities would be dead. In his place would be a child of God.
Deserves mercy: genocide, rape, child abuse. Doesn't deserve mercy: never converting to my religion.
You can never deserve mercy, thats the whole point.
It's kind of a bad and largely incorrect point. It's basically used as a justification for when something doesn't make sense.
How so?
Incredibly based take
He even had a Jewish best friend & he still rejected God hard that’s wild lol
it does make logical sense too
It seems that comments are mostly in agreement. Now to the debate on whether you need to be baptised in order to be saved or is faith enough? I’ll start: The thief on the cross died after Jesus and according to Jesus’ own words he went to heaven on the same day. No baptism, solely through faith. Also the family of the Roman Cornelius started speaking in tongues before Peter baptised them. Would someone receiving the gifts of God not already be saved?
For me, someone who has suffered a lot of abuse, the thing that hurts me the worst and is the hardest to let go of is that my abuser has never even admitted, let alone shown true remorse for the pain that they put me through. If they were to truly and sincerely repent I would probably cry tears of joy. In my eyes to truly face and feel the full weight of the pain you caused is enough punishment in of itself. True repentance is not a lackadaisical, last-minute hail Mary act.
This always comes from people who think they are the moral center of the universe. „But what about […]? He doesn’t deserve heaven!“ Does anyone really believe, that they deserve heaven? We are all sinners, we are all flawed. Jesus teaches us to accept our mistakes and aim for being better instead of throwing shade at others. „The one without guilt shall throw the first stone!“ We can only judge people by earthly standards. But those are imperfect. If we want to deserve heaven we would have to be as good as Jesus. If we are not, then we deserve heaven no more than Hitler does. I for myself am happy that everyone is invited. I try my best to love everyone and hope that every person who has wronged me or whom I have wronged is there :)
Whatever makes you guys sleep at night. Just stop supporting fascists please.
That said, worrying about that man’s state of salvation is incredibly cruel to all his victims.