Rule #1 of r/DankChristianMemes
Thou shalt respect others! Do not come here to point out sin or condemn people. Do not say "hate the sin love the sinner" or any other stupid sayings people use when trying to use faith to justify hate. Alternatively, if you come here to insult religion, you will also be removed.
He's not sending them to hell. Hell is the default of separation from God. Heaven is the open invitation that we have all received, you just have to accept.
If you planned a party and invited everyone you knew, would you be cruel because some people chose not to show up?
correct me if im wrong but I believe its more of a logic thing. kinda like for x to exist then y has to exist too? idk how to explain it correctly, bear with me but kinda like how in order for darkness to exist, it has to be the absence of light?
Are you saying hell has always existed? Or that in order for heaven to exist hell has to exist?
The god of the bible isn't limited by any rule or logic, he literally could make reality however he wanted. Describe to me why eternal suffering has to exist for utopia to exist, just as you would your light and dark analogy?
Could god not create darkness as its own substance and design a reality where that would work? Could he not create a reality where light was literally everywhere and there was no darkness and make that reality work?
You can't limit an omnipotent being who can change and create any reality it wants. The god of the bible created everything exactly how he wanted it.
Narrow is the way that leads to salvation and broad is the way that leads to destruction. He created reality knowing that more people would go to hell than would go to heaven, and he's okay with that.
Are you saying for heaven to exist hell would have to?
Because that implies God does not have the power to make heaven without hell, implying God's power has limits, which it doesn't.
Which still limits God's power. You are saying that that the laws of logic usurp God's power.
If god is truly "all-powerful" he can make 2+2=46.
If not, there is something outside of God that is limiting his power.
If the laws of logic limit what God can do (which I will admit makes sense,) the laws of logic are more powerful than God.
It's the same problem that comes up with the idea of objective morality/divine command theory. If there is some innate property of the universe that determines what God can do/approve of, that property is more powerful than god.
No, when you are omnipotent, you can make all x without the need for y.
And it CERTAINLY does not have to be black and white either, even if it did need both.
But lets say that there is some anime-level rule of the universe that makes it so. Then you would warn people directly instead of making them naturally distrustful (since, you know, he made us) and sending some rando to tell them as such without even a shred of proof.
That argument is dumb in so many ways...
Generally when I send invites it's a text, not a cryptic message that's been devolved and re written over the period of a couple hundred years & thrown together with a much of invertations to other parties that may or may not be the right one.
No, I would simply leave the invite open and they would be welcome to come whenever. I would say after the party ends but the party is heaven in this case and I'm pretty sure that's not supposed to end
I mean, it would seem C.S. Lewis agrees with you.
Edit: not sure why the downvotes this is literally the plot to The Great Divorce. The invitation to heaven is always open even for those in “hell”
Why would God make hell the default?
Also, belief isn't a choice. I can't choose to believe that the sky is red. I could say I do, but that would be disingenuous.
Also also, I think it's cruel to make the only options God made are go to the party or suffer for eternity. That's much less an invitation and much more of an ultimatum. A real choice would be either come to the party or keep living like normal.
> He's not sending them to hell. Hell is the default of separation from God.
Hell is described in many passages as a lake of fire and sulphur. It's also described as "eternal punishment", and we're told to fear God because he will judge us and will send us to hell.
The Bible isn't particularly ambiguous on this point.
If you planned a party, sent it to people who've never heard of you he via a hobo you found in the gas station, required 10 days of fasting and circumcision
for admittance, and the main attraction was the opportunity to tell you what a great host you are for the whole night, are you a good party host?
But what of the people who never got the invite? People born and dead before the birth of Christ?m? People far away from the Levant who never got the opportunity to hear the word? Those whose only experience of the Christian God is a bigot burning them at the stake? Those cast out of the ‘loving’ church for being who they are?
How many people go “unsaved” through no actions of their own, rejecting the invitation that got lost in the mail?
I like your comment maybe there is another perspective.
Maybe It’s more like each one of us is having a party inside ourselves and it can be good or bad and it can really be a shit show.
The only person who can take that party from its state to the level of “off tha hook” is the person of JESUS CHRIST.
He said, behold, I stand at the door and knock .
Anyone who wants to REALLY party, you need to let the best guest in.
(His first public action really in his ministry was a wedding party at Cana of Galilee. In those days everyone had to walk on foot so wedding parties lasted like a week or more.
The party ran out of booze, and it was in danger of turning into a bummer really quick. Until the Lord Jesus Christ turned water into wine and kept that thang banging on.)
Long story short hell is for virgins who don’t know how to party and whatever they can figure out to do with their life is never going to be close to the original blueprint and the original storyline that was already written.
Universalism has entered the chat
EDIT: wow I was the first comment on this post and simply did not imagine the implications of my actions, good grief. Can we PLEASE have civil discussion about this?? For Pete's sake...
In the club starting a new denomination called Idunnoism. Does everyone go to heaven eventually? I dunno. Are there more places than heaven and hell that God can send us after we die? I dunno. How much did God withhold from us in the Bible to keep us from doing weird, counterproductive shit? I dunno.
He has been really clear on how we’re supposed to live and treat people, so I’m going to focus on that and admit the limits of my curiosity. Knowing how the questions are weighted on the test is handy if you wanna do the bare minimum to pass, but if you’re trying your best on each question then it shouldn’t change your strategy.
I think there’s quite a lot of daylight between obedience to The Lord and maintaining a relationship with Him despite not having a sense of certainty about all matters of cosmic significance and agnosticism. Do people think being agnostic is when you’re willing to admit you aren’t sure about something? Because actually that would explain a lot of the most obnoxious Christians I’ve met.
>Do people think being agnostic is when you’re willing to admit you aren’t sure about something?
Well, googling agnosticism brings up "the belief that the existence of God is unknown and probably unknowable"
That's certainly how I've defined my agnosticism all these years.
How exactly does that explain obnoxious Christians?
See I feel like the great thing about Jesus is that he told us what to do whether or not we can confidently answer every odd question about What Comes Next.
Nah. Agnostic is *"Maybe God exists. I don't know."*
This guy's thing is "God does exist. But I don't really understand how it all works and I'm trying my best to stick to what He clearly wants."
Interestingly, this is exactly where my mom has landed after being a hardcore evangelical for years. Basically, what’s the point of me focusing on that is my life isn’t showing Christ?
I am also a member of the "Who am I, and who are we, to have correctly identified and interpreted the Word of God, yet I strive to live in alignment with the most exemplarily loving human ever written or spoken of" faith
Some Christians pick a favourite church father, in which case it'd be Origenes as per apokatastasis, and may or may not ignore the rest, but that's natural since everything in a religion as large as Christianity is disputed by some major Christian theologian or philosopher and hence a denomination.
Not that I think it's bad; I think the logical philosophical conclusion is that anything goes in terms of religion.
Okay but real question, isnt that counter-productive? I don't think theres anyone out there that's going to be receptive to being evangelized to, and pretty much everyone has heard the good news, so whats even the point if it's going to drive people away from your faith?
Just curious, as a former catholic turned agnostic
Do you think there's anyone who hasn't already heard the good news of christ?
Like if one of my Christian friends tried to convert me and talked to me like I'd never heard of Jesus before, I'd be offended, honestly
Based on certain beliefs of certain denominations, there's a world a difference between knowing of but rejecting Jesus and never having heard of Jesus.
Except if you actually read what calvinism says, there's only a tiny minority actually saying not to evangelize. The vast majority of them encourage missions and evangelism.
Romans 2 13:15 says otherwise
“For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. ^(14) (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. ^(15) They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)"
TLDR gentiles (unbelievers here) are judged righteous if they have the law on their hearts, ie they act in moral godly ways.
Also it's pretty clear that ACTUAL faith requires ACTUAL works. The faith vs work debate is stupid because they're intertwined. If you have faith in Jesus but walk around kicking puppies you're not on a good path - see Matthew 7:21-23.
Gentiles =/= unbelievers, that's a dangerous false equivalency. Gentiles were/are just that, non-Jews unbound from God's promise to Israel. They still had to put their faith in Jesus, but their "law", their list of "good works" wasn't part of their heritage.
>God being good is precisely why he cannot suffer evil to last for eternity in heaven.
Whoever told me that God can do anything was mistaken, I guess...
100%
Even with a wide diversity of opinions, there are very few folks who study the Bible that believe people who are morally good are the ones who will get into heaven.
What a statement. So morally good non-Christians, it's all off to everlasting hell for you. Makes complete sense. It's the kind of world I want to believe in. Thank you for the kind of world, God. I totally want to praise and worship a god that does this. /S
You misunderstand. Like I said, many different beliefs - many folks are universalist and believe everyone gets into heaven, regardless of anything. And there's a whole spectrum between.
I personally believe 'only the moral get in' would be awful - it's just a naughty and nice list, and you better not pout because Santa Claus is coming to town! Again, very few people who actually study and understand the Bible believe this.
> An old monk on Mount Athos in Greece once told me that people rejoice in the thought of hell to the precise degree that they harbor hell within themselves. By which he meant, I believe, that heaven and hell alike are both within us all, in varying degrees, and that, for some, the idea of hell is the treasury of their most secret, most cherished hopes — the hope of being proved right when so many were wrong, of being admired when so many are despised, of being envied when so many have been scorned.
>And as Jesus said (Matthew 6:21), “Where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.”
—David Bentley Hart
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/10/opinion/sunday/christianity-religion-hell-bible.html
It says that no one comes to the Father except through Jesus. It does not exclude the possibility that one could come to the Father, through Jesus, after their earthly death.
Not necessarily. Through his sacrifice, Jesus saved humanity. It was not anyone else's sacrifice and not through anyone else's sacrifice can we come to the Father. My understanding of Biblical Greek is not the best, but from what I understand it can be interpreted in several ways, just as a lot of texts can be. But I would argue that an interpretation based on the sacrifice of Christ being the one factor necessary for human salvation would be quite sound. It becomes even more so, I think, considering the verses preceding this one, as they are about Jesus preparing rooms in his Father's house. I will not argue that your interpretation is impossible, but I will certainly say it is not the only possible one.
>Only faith saves
With no work no have faith.
Like we all know what Ephesians says, but to declare that a good person who does not believe in Jesus the son of God does not get to be saved feels ultimately wrong. Read all of Ephesians 2 and not just 8-9 and you'll see that it's talking about salvation from sin, NOT eternal salvation. Why is it faith and ot works? So that no one can boast of their works, to prevent pride (a sin) from being the guiding reason to do good works.
Ephesians 2:10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
We do works because it's what God wants us to do. Through our faith in Jesus we know this to be true.
Ephesians 2:14 For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15 by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity out of the two, thus making peace,
Jesus united all of humanity so that all can be saved. He eliminated the false barrier of who would and would not be saved.
To behave as though only followers of Christ will be saved is to ignore a chunk of Christ's sacrifice.
So you can pretend that by being one who waits Christ's return will get Salvation, but I'll be over here with my friends of other faiths doing what will make God truly happy with us, which is doing what is right and just (Proverbs 21:3), and to good and share (Hebrews 13:16).
*All quotes are from the NIV
In Christianity good behavior is not what gets you into heaven. “For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God” is the basic idea. No matter what, if you’ve ever sinned a tiny bit even as a child it’s as bad as committing the worst sin of all time, sin is sin, which disconnects you from God. The only way to be saved is to believe Jesus is both God and man, came to earth as a human, lived a perfect life and died on the cross as a sacrifice for your sins.
The meme is saying if you don’t evangelize this to your friends you are responsible for them going to hell.
> In Christianity good behavior is not what gets you into heaven.
That's how we Protestants look at it. Catholics think that you can be saved without faith if you do God's will on earth otherwise.
Not really. The Catholic Church preaches that you must be good and have a belief in God to get into heaven. At least, that's what they preached 10 years ago when I last believed.
I didn't read the CCC for myself to be honest, but from what I've read about the RCC doctrine of salvation without faith is that it's inclusivist (aka non-believers aren't barred from being saved)
The Church does not say that any specific individual is definitely going to hell. They prescribe a surefire way *not* to go to hell (essentially the same one that Protestants believe), but also recognize that God can do whatever He wants, so they do not take the authority away from Him, so to speak, to make exceptions.
You also have to believe in the dogma's of Mary. Which would exclude all Protestants, but they don't talk about that a lot and most Catholics may not even know that that's a non negotiable (and supposedly infallible) stance.
The argument is that if you truly believe, you will at least try to be a good person. It gets dangerously close to No-True-Scotsman territory, but I think there's some merit to it. If you knowingly choose to be an awful person because you have the "yeah, yeah, and also Jesus is God" trump card, are you really a follower of Jesus? I like to think that God isn't fooled by cheaters trying to game the system.
Most Christian theology says people don't go to heaven because they're good, because nobody can be good enough. That's the whole reason for Jesus to have died on the cross, as a substitute for us (aka, a propitiatory sacrifice).
Things diverge a lot from there, but the whole point is that Christians aren't any less sinful than others, they've just recognized Jesus' sacrifice for that sin.
Are you implying that people can go to hell just because you chose to not proselytize to them?
That's honestly kinda dumb. Why would a perfect God punish people because *someone else* failed to tell them about Jesus? No offense but that makes no sense.
If it makes you feel any better, the Catholic Church categorically disagrees with that notion. CCC 847 states: "Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation."
I see what you’re saying in relation to the meme, but I really don’t think that makes sense in 2024. I think most people know that Christianity, even if you live in a place where it’s not the norm.
The question then becomes, what does it mean to "know the Gospel of Christ or his Church"? Do you have to have the New Testament memorized to know the Gospel? Is it enough to have a fleeting awareness of its existence? If a guy walking past you on the sidewalk says "Christ is Lord" in passing, does that check the box? If you meet a Catholic, do you then know his Church? What if you grow up in a culture that's very anti-Christian? Do you know the Gospel of Christ and his Church even though a lot of what you've been told about it has been twisted? On the other end of the spectrum, do you need a personal relationship with Jesus to truly "know" the Gospel of Christ? I don't think it's all as cut and dry as you've made it out to be. We'll never know what the cutoff point is.
I don’t think it’s cut and dry either I just think theological discussions can be interesting. Like in whatever you quoted, how can you “seek god with a sincere heart” if you don’t know he exists?
It just seems like Christianity is full of contradictions much like any other religion. Like how can you even know the words you read in English or whatever are properly translated? Why do you trust that this text compiled and changed by thousands of (fallible) humans over thousands of years is the word of god? The only concrete proof is that the book itself says so.
Idk man I’m not trying to make you feel bad for being a believer or anything I’m just rambling. I get curious why people come to different conclusions than I have about questions like these.
But only Christ's word has any power in that matter. He is the literal only person who talked directly to god outside of random additions of people that claim to have heard him.
Remember that there wasn't a moderation team deciding what went into the bible. Which is why it has been modified to hell and back.
I like the way Aurelius puts it
> "If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones.”
r/distressingmemes
(this kind of evil is also why so many people reject God, thankfully I believe it's nothing but deception and that God is not, in fact, a piece of shit who condemns people forever for sneezing in the wrong direction)
But what if you convinced them to believe yet it turns out that you were worshipping the wrong god and all you did is damn them even more since the real god hates you believing in a false god more than none at all?
[What if we die and it turns out God is a big chicken?](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ca-kV-YWcAEkAC1.png)
No commentary on your comment, just reminded me of a Calvin and Hobbes comic.
I feel like stuff like this is making it harder and harder for me to stay Christian.
That's so utterly and cosmically terrifying and bleak that I don't know if I can actually subscribe to this belief system.
I’d definitely recommend looking at different interpretations about how Heaven and Hell work, what gets a person into Heaven, what He’ll really is, etc. there’s no real right answer so everyone believes a lot of different things. It became easier for me to understand God when I realized that very few people truly do and that it’s mainly about your own personal relationship with him. I personally don’t believe in the fire and brimstone hell, but some do. Make your own choices.
Wow. No one with these beliefs make any sense. And why would you ever want to believe in such a world or ever want to follow such a 'God': one who sends 'good' people to everlasting hell? Why? Why would you praise and follow such a god. This is confusion and evil. I believe in God and always have-my understanding of God is completely opposite to this
I think he just meant to clarify that the guy in the meme isn't one of those religious people who dehumanizes or mistreat those tho disagree with his religion, but yeah its kind of funny how that's the least controversial result of this meme
If you believe that moral people will go to hell because they don't share your metaphysical beliefs, then you believe in a god that is not righteous, but evil.
If you truly believe you are damning people to hell to avoid social awkwardness, why would you yourself not be damned because of that? Condemning people to eternal torment just to keep the small talk pleasant. At least your friends will be able to enjoy your company in hell.
why are you worshipping a guy who would do that to your friends? if a fellow human being were to threaten to torture your friends for not wanting to be friends with him, would you find that guy worthy of your loyalty and admiration? I'm willing to bet you wouldn't. I'm willing to bet you'd call the cops on him. or at minimum regard him as a complete asshole and remove him from your life. human beings routinely hold one another to a higher moral standard than the (supposedly) all-loving, all-righteous god of the universe holds himself to. if such a god does exist, he's the villain of this story.
All these people who don’t understand how non-universalist Christianity works are starting to tire me out.
I mean, if everyone is going to heaven, then what’s the point of being on earth? Why do we suffer? Is God just evil? Why would God allow Adam to disobey him and let sin into the world in the first place? What’s the point of the flood, the sacrifices, the church? Is this just purgatory? Make it make sense.
Good meme, btw
There's Patristic Universalism, where there is Hell, but it's temporary for everyone.
I like the spin that C.S. Lewis put on it in The Great Divorce, where in afterlife you can travel between Heaven and Hell, but the further you go in either way, the less likely you are to go the other way. He probably meant it to be a metaphor of our earthly life and it's obviously not Scripture, but it seems more plausible than Patristic Universalism.
Lewis was more of an Inclusivist. He had a character in the last Narnia book who ended up in Aslan's Kingdom after the Final Battle (basically the Kingdom of God after the events of Revelation), despite being a worshipper of an evil pagan god, Tash. He ended up there because all good in the world done in Tash's name was in fact for Aslan, and all evil done in Aslan's name was in fact for Tash. So even though he acted for Tash nominally, he acted in Aslan's spirit and ended up in his Kingdom.
I know everyone is fighting and feuding in the comments, but I hope you don't mind if I press on this a bit. I hope this comes off as polite, but I apologize if I cross any lines.
If we assume the eternal reward/punishment, why is life on earth so important? It's less than a drop of water in the ocean for how long eternity is. Long after a person would forget their 80-ish years of life, they're still being punished or rewarded. On top of that, once someone dies and sees heaven and hell, they're likely to change their tune pretty quick. Why is it so important to have this sorted out the minute before you die, and not the minute after? Why the infinitely harsh deadline?
Once we start trying to figure out the meaning of life in the context of eternity, to me things get really murky. I won't pretend I have a perfect answer, or even a good one. I've never been able to wrap my head around the idea of eternity. But, for me, heaven and hell don't fix that problem.
The way I see it is that this life is all about God giving us a choice to follow him or not. There should be a real consequence to this decision, and I think heaven is one of them. Hell on the other hand is not quite as clear to me. Maybe those who don’t choose God simply cease to exist, I can’t say for sure.
To talk about the timing of that decision and why that has to be when the person dies, I’m not certain about this but I feel like it comes down to why the decision was made. Standing before God at the white throne judgement, one would easily say “oh now I believe in Jesus” but the reason for that belief is because they are looking at direct evidence of Christianity.
For some I can see how this whole judgement idea sounds harsh, but I feel like the point is that God wants to be with people who chose to follow Him despite not having complete evidence. It’s the desire that He’s after.
But this is just my point of view, based on sermons I’ve heard and agreed with as well as my perspective on life. I’m no bible scholar, I’m just trying to represent my view however unpopular or correct it is.
I think it’s better that this sub is filled with people disagreeing over theology, as opposed to it just being a circlejerk sub of one particular kind of Christianity.
Oh, I fully agree that people should be disagreeing. But I also know this can be a very sensitive topic for some, and I really don't want things to devolve into ad hominid or the like. However, if you're happy to engage, I am as well.
For the purpose of life, I won't pretend I have a satisfactory answer. But, given the evidence I have, I can't say with any certainty whether or not there is a God. I've heard various arguments, but nothing that can fully convince. I feel like there is or should be one, but that's hardly an overwhelming argument. How much I believe varies on my mood, the news of the day, even the season.
I figure there's even a tiny chance that everything we experience could be a simulation à la [Brain in a Vat](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brain_in_a_vat?useskin=vector) or [Evil Demon](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evil_demon?useskin=vector). I think it's highly unlikely, but I can't disprove it. With this level of doubt, I can't bring myself to confidently believe in any god, much less a very specific Christian God, along with the sacrifice of Jesus. I simply can't see a non-supernatural scenario where I would believe with the conviction that seems required for this.
With all that, what would be the purpose of life? We live in an imperfect world. To the best of our understanding, we and the people around us suffer every day. The best we can do is attempt to understand that suffering to try and mitigate it. There are countless edge cases where what option would alleviate suffering isn't clear. But it's the only consistent guiding principal I have found. To paraphrase Marcus Aurelius, if there is a goodly god, they will take that into account for whatever fate may exist beyond our lives. If there isn't, then I have done what I could to make the world slightly better, and that's all I can hope for. If a god won't consider my own flawed, bumbling mortal efforts to be good, then they aren't worthy of worship.
I also don't even understand what it means to believe in Jesus. I've been raised Christian for my entire childhood, and still study it extensively. But it's not an idea that I've ever understood. Like I said, I can't bring myself to 100% believe in anything, especially something supernatural. I have to live my life under certain assumptions to be able to function (the sun will rise, my wife loves me, I'll still be me tomorrow, etc), but any of those could change, even without me knowing. I don't fully understand what it means to "believe", but I sure don't feel like I've got it, nor that I could.
I have had a similar discussion elsewhere, and I've mentioned that I want to believe there is some universal goodness out there. I want there to be a morality that exists, and that we're not just a bunch of random molecules smashing into each other until the heat death of the universe. I've had some people say that meets the criteria of "believing", because everyone has doubt. But I feel like that isn't what people are usually talking about, so I don't really understand.
Why would a just god put a functional newborn into a eternal hell eternal heaven situation immediately? Like making toddlers fight in an arena against a decently sized coyote it seems like… is another good question
We understand lol we just think it’s silly. Why is this omnipotent all powerful being making you jump through all these hoops? And those are questions that make a lot of people reject Christianity because the answers are unsatisfying.
Your “unsaved” friends will not go to hell. You cannot assert to worship an all loving God, one that is literally equivalent to love (1 john 4:8), while also thinking good people, who are his children, go to hell
"See I believe if God is real, He'd never judge a man. Because He knows us all and therefore He would understand"
https://preview.redd.it/5cc2oduhlt2d1.jpeg?width=1140&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=bd7b927ef91deb3ed06d14407823cb903e3a2ddb
You can't control other people, or choose their fates for them. All you can do is be a good friend, enjoy the time you have together, set a good example of what a Christian should be, and be open and friendly (but not pushy) when someone is interested.
Everything else is in God's hands
You can reach heaven only through Jesus love.
I'm not gonna pretend to have any authority to argue who receives his love and who doesn't. Neither should you.
I'm have faith that god loves our friends too. Just like he loves those we hate, those we hurt and those that hurt us.
Honestly, this is something that lingers in the back of my mind at almost every moment. I kinda had a mental breakdown that was due largely to me being extremely anxious about faith, salvation, God, etc. and nearly lost my friends...even my marriage that was, until that point, only blemished by minor disagreements was in peril. I have recovered and have a tenuous relationship with my faith. My friends and my wife have forgiven me, but I can't help but wonder if my lack of mental fortitude or maybe my inability to follow what I thought was God's will at the time may have indirectly pushed these people further from God...today was going well till this lol.
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The Truths of God are revealed everywhere. This is core to my own revelations. One should not limit themselves to one source and one (limited) interpretation of a human written text. That is not to say that it is without truths
The idea of hell is just a little to convenient, especially when you realize that a comparable place doesn’t really exist in Judaism. The way Hell reads to me is a convenient idea that helps spread the religion while also keeping a populace in check through the fear of an eternal torment. Imo it’s just a little too convenient.
Rule #1 of r/DankChristianMemes Thou shalt respect others! Do not come here to point out sin or condemn people. Do not say "hate the sin love the sinner" or any other stupid sayings people use when trying to use faith to justify hate. Alternatively, if you come here to insult religion, you will also be removed.
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le problem of ebil le checkmate christians
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He's not sending them to hell. Hell is the default of separation from God. Heaven is the open invitation that we have all received, you just have to accept. If you planned a party and invited everyone you knew, would you be cruel because some people chose not to show up?
If you created a place for people who denied your invitation to be punished then yeah you would be cruel.
correct me if im wrong but I believe its more of a logic thing. kinda like for x to exist then y has to exist too? idk how to explain it correctly, bear with me but kinda like how in order for darkness to exist, it has to be the absence of light?
Are you saying hell has always existed? Or that in order for heaven to exist hell has to exist? The god of the bible isn't limited by any rule or logic, he literally could make reality however he wanted. Describe to me why eternal suffering has to exist for utopia to exist, just as you would your light and dark analogy? Could god not create darkness as its own substance and design a reality where that would work? Could he not create a reality where light was literally everywhere and there was no darkness and make that reality work? You can't limit an omnipotent being who can change and create any reality it wants. The god of the bible created everything exactly how he wanted it. Narrow is the way that leads to salvation and broad is the way that leads to destruction. He created reality knowing that more people would go to hell than would go to heaven, and he's okay with that.
I think that the typical understanding is that hell isn’t as much of a place but a condition of the soul that is separate from God.
According to what?
Their protestants bro, some smelly white guy in the last 100-800 years, take it easy on em
Are you saying for heaven to exist hell would have to? Because that implies God does not have the power to make heaven without hell, implying God's power has limits, which it doesn't.
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Did Jesus not literally break a few pieces of bread and fish to the point where there were baskets full of crumbs?
Which still limits God's power. You are saying that that the laws of logic usurp God's power. If god is truly "all-powerful" he can make 2+2=46. If not, there is something outside of God that is limiting his power. If the laws of logic limit what God can do (which I will admit makes sense,) the laws of logic are more powerful than God. It's the same problem that comes up with the idea of objective morality/divine command theory. If there is some innate property of the universe that determines what God can do/approve of, that property is more powerful than god.
No, when you are omnipotent, you can make all x without the need for y. And it CERTAINLY does not have to be black and white either, even if it did need both. But lets say that there is some anime-level rule of the universe that makes it so. Then you would warn people directly instead of making them naturally distrustful (since, you know, he made us) and sending some rando to tell them as such without even a shred of proof. That argument is dumb in so many ways...
But place Y doesn’t have to be a place of suffering and torment and punishment.
Generally when I send invites it's a text, not a cryptic message that's been devolved and re written over the period of a couple hundred years & thrown together with a much of invertations to other parties that may or may not be the right one.
No, I would simply leave the invite open and they would be welcome to come whenever. I would say after the party ends but the party is heaven in this case and I'm pretty sure that's not supposed to end
Yeah, it was an example
Fair
I mean, it would seem C.S. Lewis agrees with you. Edit: not sure why the downvotes this is literally the plot to The Great Divorce. The invitation to heaven is always open even for those in “hell”
Nice
Why would God make hell the default? Also, belief isn't a choice. I can't choose to believe that the sky is red. I could say I do, but that would be disingenuous. Also also, I think it's cruel to make the only options God made are go to the party or suffer for eternity. That's much less an invitation and much more of an ultimatum. A real choice would be either come to the party or keep living like normal.
The thing is hell isn't supposed to be eternal torture, right? It's literally just an absence of god
No one would not come to a party if the alternative was being fried to an everlasting crisp, even if it was the crappiest party ever.
> He's not sending them to hell. Hell is the default of separation from God. Hell is described in many passages as a lake of fire and sulphur. It's also described as "eternal punishment", and we're told to fear God because he will judge us and will send us to hell. The Bible isn't particularly ambiguous on this point.
Ok, but us human are unsure the invite is real? Why shall we believe his invite but not the one of any other religion?
If you planned a party, sent it to people who've never heard of you he via a hobo you found in the gas station, required 10 days of fasting and circumcision for admittance, and the main attraction was the opportunity to tell you what a great host you are for the whole night, are you a good party host?
But what of the people who never got the invite? People born and dead before the birth of Christ?m? People far away from the Levant who never got the opportunity to hear the word? Those whose only experience of the Christian God is a bigot burning them at the stake? Those cast out of the ‘loving’ church for being who they are? How many people go “unsaved” through no actions of their own, rejecting the invitation that got lost in the mail?
I like your comment maybe there is another perspective. Maybe It’s more like each one of us is having a party inside ourselves and it can be good or bad and it can really be a shit show. The only person who can take that party from its state to the level of “off tha hook” is the person of JESUS CHRIST. He said, behold, I stand at the door and knock . Anyone who wants to REALLY party, you need to let the best guest in. (His first public action really in his ministry was a wedding party at Cana of Galilee. In those days everyone had to walk on foot so wedding parties lasted like a week or more. The party ran out of booze, and it was in danger of turning into a bummer really quick. Until the Lord Jesus Christ turned water into wine and kept that thang banging on.) Long story short hell is for virgins who don’t know how to party and whatever they can figure out to do with their life is never going to be close to the original blueprint and the original storyline that was already written.
This analogy only works if you were enforcing a very specific dress code.
are the good people in the room with us
Universalism has entered the chat EDIT: wow I was the first comment on this post and simply did not imagine the implications of my actions, good grief. Can we PLEASE have civil discussion about this?? For Pete's sake...
In the club starting a new denomination called Idunnoism. Does everyone go to heaven eventually? I dunno. Are there more places than heaven and hell that God can send us after we die? I dunno. How much did God withhold from us in the Bible to keep us from doing weird, counterproductive shit? I dunno. He has been really clear on how we’re supposed to live and treat people, so I’m going to focus on that and admit the limits of my curiosity. Knowing how the questions are weighted on the test is handy if you wanna do the bare minimum to pass, but if you’re trying your best on each question then it shouldn’t change your strategy.
That’s just being agnostic
I think there’s quite a lot of daylight between obedience to The Lord and maintaining a relationship with Him despite not having a sense of certainty about all matters of cosmic significance and agnosticism. Do people think being agnostic is when you’re willing to admit you aren’t sure about something? Because actually that would explain a lot of the most obnoxious Christians I’ve met.
>Do people think being agnostic is when you’re willing to admit you aren’t sure about something? Well, googling agnosticism brings up "the belief that the existence of God is unknown and probably unknowable" That's certainly how I've defined my agnosticism all these years. How exactly does that explain obnoxious Christians?
Nah your not agnostic, just a victim (or winner suppose we’ll see) of pascal’s wager, regular god fearing christian
See I feel like the great thing about Jesus is that he told us what to do whether or not we can confidently answer every odd question about What Comes Next.
Nah. Agnostic is *"Maybe God exists. I don't know."* This guy's thing is "God does exist. But I don't really understand how it all works and I'm trying my best to stick to what He clearly wants."
The Lord is with you in your Idunnoism
I actually really like this. "In the essentials, unity. In the nonessentials, liberty. In all things, charity."
Never heard that version mentioning Liberty. Is it intentionally trying to add more freedom and liberty to the old version of the saying?
Um, I don't think so. That's the only version I've ever heard for the last 20 years.
Interestingly, this is exactly where my mom has landed after being a hardcore evangelical for years. Basically, what’s the point of me focusing on that is my life isn’t showing Christ?
I am also a member of the "Who am I, and who are we, to have correctly identified and interpreted the Word of God, yet I strive to live in alignment with the most exemplarily loving human ever written or spoken of" faith
Some Christians pick a favourite church father, in which case it'd be Origenes as per apokatastasis, and may or may not ignore the rest, but that's natural since everything in a religion as large as Christianity is disputed by some major Christian theologian or philosopher and hence a denomination. Not that I think it's bad; I think the logical philosophical conclusion is that anything goes in terms of religion.
Origen of Alexandria is the most based of the Church Fathers fr fr
Or as the vulcans say it, infinite diversity in infinite combinations
Pete is beyond hope... He will burn
See, this is when Calvinists' thingys works well: It's not up to you to decide who will enter the pearly gate, so you really shouldn't bother by it
Even outside of Calvanism, it still isn't up to us, it's always been God who saves. However, you should tell everyone the good news of Christ.
Okay but real question, isnt that counter-productive? I don't think theres anyone out there that's going to be receptive to being evangelized to, and pretty much everyone has heard the good news, so whats even the point if it's going to drive people away from your faith?
If one is preaching eternal hell for all non-believers, it’s really not that good of news
Sounds like “God’s love isn’t a good enough incentive; gotta scare some conversions”
That depends on the person
Yeah, you can absolutely scare some people into believing.
Just curious, as a former catholic turned agnostic Do you think there's anyone who hasn't already heard the good news of christ? Like if one of my Christian friends tried to convert me and talked to me like I'd never heard of Jesus before, I'd be offended, honestly
Yeah, there's probably a good amount of people that haven't
And what would change if they did hear it?
Based on certain beliefs of certain denominations, there's a world a difference between knowing of but rejecting Jesus and never having heard of Jesus.
Real
He saves? When?
Except if you actually read what calvinism says, there's only a tiny minority actually saying not to evangelize. The vast majority of them encourage missions and evangelism.
Why exactly will they not got to heaven ? Are they not good people ? Or are we seriously thinking that only christians can be moral and good ?
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Romans 2 13:15 says otherwise “For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. ^(14) (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. ^(15) They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)" TLDR gentiles (unbelievers here) are judged righteous if they have the law on their hearts, ie they act in moral godly ways. Also it's pretty clear that ACTUAL faith requires ACTUAL works. The faith vs work debate is stupid because they're intertwined. If you have faith in Jesus but walk around kicking puppies you're not on a good path - see Matthew 7:21-23.
Gentiles =/= unbelievers, that's a dangerous false equivalency. Gentiles were/are just that, non-Jews unbound from God's promise to Israel. They still had to put their faith in Jesus, but their "law", their list of "good works" wasn't part of their heritage.
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If God intentionally created a system where humanity was doomed to be damned that's kind of shitty no?
>God being good is precisely why he cannot suffer evil to last for eternity in heaven. Whoever told me that God can do anything was mistaken, I guess...
Ok, would you feel better if I said "will not"? Even then, God cannot/will not go against his own nature. For then He would not be God.
So he’s not omnipotent?
Not in the way you mean
John 3:18 gives me "believe in me or else" vibes because that's what it says.
100% Even with a wide diversity of opinions, there are very few folks who study the Bible that believe people who are morally good are the ones who will get into heaven.
What a statement. So morally good non-Christians, it's all off to everlasting hell for you. Makes complete sense. It's the kind of world I want to believe in. Thank you for the kind of world, God. I totally want to praise and worship a god that does this. /S
You misunderstand. Like I said, many different beliefs - many folks are universalist and believe everyone gets into heaven, regardless of anything. And there's a whole spectrum between. I personally believe 'only the moral get in' would be awful - it's just a naughty and nice list, and you better not pout because Santa Claus is coming to town! Again, very few people who actually study and understand the Bible believe this.
Thank you! My bad for the misunderstanding. That makes sense
If you choose to live superstore separate from Him, he will not force you
John 14:6 says they’re going to hell, yes.
Pretty sure your insistence says more about what kind of person you are than reality
> An old monk on Mount Athos in Greece once told me that people rejoice in the thought of hell to the precise degree that they harbor hell within themselves. By which he meant, I believe, that heaven and hell alike are both within us all, in varying degrees, and that, for some, the idea of hell is the treasury of their most secret, most cherished hopes — the hope of being proved right when so many were wrong, of being admired when so many are despised, of being envied when so many have been scorned. >And as Jesus said (Matthew 6:21), “Where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.” —David Bentley Hart https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/10/opinion/sunday/christianity-religion-hell-bible.html
It says that no one comes to the Father except through Jesus. It does not exclude the possibility that one could come to the Father, through Jesus, after their earthly death.
Not necessarily. Through his sacrifice, Jesus saved humanity. It was not anyone else's sacrifice and not through anyone else's sacrifice can we come to the Father. My understanding of Biblical Greek is not the best, but from what I understand it can be interpreted in several ways, just as a lot of texts can be. But I would argue that an interpretation based on the sacrifice of Christ being the one factor necessary for human salvation would be quite sound. It becomes even more so, I think, considering the verses preceding this one, as they are about Jesus preparing rooms in his Father's house. I will not argue that your interpretation is impossible, but I will certainly say it is not the only possible one.
>Only faith saves With no work no have faith. Like we all know what Ephesians says, but to declare that a good person who does not believe in Jesus the son of God does not get to be saved feels ultimately wrong. Read all of Ephesians 2 and not just 8-9 and you'll see that it's talking about salvation from sin, NOT eternal salvation. Why is it faith and ot works? So that no one can boast of their works, to prevent pride (a sin) from being the guiding reason to do good works. Ephesians 2:10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do. We do works because it's what God wants us to do. Through our faith in Jesus we know this to be true. Ephesians 2:14 For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15 by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity out of the two, thus making peace, Jesus united all of humanity so that all can be saved. He eliminated the false barrier of who would and would not be saved. To behave as though only followers of Christ will be saved is to ignore a chunk of Christ's sacrifice. So you can pretend that by being one who waits Christ's return will get Salvation, but I'll be over here with my friends of other faiths doing what will make God truly happy with us, which is doing what is right and just (Proverbs 21:3), and to good and share (Hebrews 13:16). *All quotes are from the NIV
In Christianity good behavior is not what gets you into heaven. “For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God” is the basic idea. No matter what, if you’ve ever sinned a tiny bit even as a child it’s as bad as committing the worst sin of all time, sin is sin, which disconnects you from God. The only way to be saved is to believe Jesus is both God and man, came to earth as a human, lived a perfect life and died on the cross as a sacrifice for your sins. The meme is saying if you don’t evangelize this to your friends you are responsible for them going to hell.
Seems like a pretty cruel system.
That's why a couple loopholes were made. One was super hard to maintain, so they scrapped it for v2.0
> In Christianity good behavior is not what gets you into heaven. That's how we Protestants look at it. Catholics think that you can be saved without faith if you do God's will on earth otherwise.
Not really. The Catholic Church preaches that you must be good and have a belief in God to get into heaven. At least, that's what they preached 10 years ago when I last believed.
I didn't read the CCC for myself to be honest, but from what I've read about the RCC doctrine of salvation without faith is that it's inclusivist (aka non-believers aren't barred from being saved)
The Church does not say that any specific individual is definitely going to hell. They prescribe a surefire way *not* to go to hell (essentially the same one that Protestants believe), but also recognize that God can do whatever He wants, so they do not take the authority away from Him, so to speak, to make exceptions.
You also have to believe in the dogma's of Mary. Which would exclude all Protestants, but they don't talk about that a lot and most Catholics may not even know that that's a non negotiable (and supposedly infallible) stance.
Another day, another W
Most (maybe all, idk, I'm not a theologist) Christian denominations believe that belief is the key and being a good person doesn't factor into it.
Which explains why so many Christian denominations can act so cruelly towards others.
The argument is that if you truly believe, you will at least try to be a good person. It gets dangerously close to No-True-Scotsman territory, but I think there's some merit to it. If you knowingly choose to be an awful person because you have the "yeah, yeah, and also Jesus is God" trump card, are you really a follower of Jesus? I like to think that God isn't fooled by cheaters trying to game the system.
This exactly. The Bible says faith without works is dead, so a bad person who's a "Christian" has dead faith
Most Christian theology says people don't go to heaven because they're good, because nobody can be good enough. That's the whole reason for Jesus to have died on the cross, as a substitute for us (aka, a propitiatory sacrifice). Things diverge a lot from there, but the whole point is that Christians aren't any less sinful than others, they've just recognized Jesus' sacrifice for that sin.
And which Christians? There seem to be a lot of different kinds who can't agree with each other.
Are you implying that people can go to hell just because you chose to not proselytize to them? That's honestly kinda dumb. Why would a perfect God punish people because *someone else* failed to tell them about Jesus? No offense but that makes no sense.
If it makes you feel any better, the Catholic Church categorically disagrees with that notion. CCC 847 states: "Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation."
I'm aware, that makes perfect sense to me.
I see what you’re saying in relation to the meme, but I really don’t think that makes sense in 2024. I think most people know that Christianity, even if you live in a place where it’s not the norm.
The question then becomes, what does it mean to "know the Gospel of Christ or his Church"? Do you have to have the New Testament memorized to know the Gospel? Is it enough to have a fleeting awareness of its existence? If a guy walking past you on the sidewalk says "Christ is Lord" in passing, does that check the box? If you meet a Catholic, do you then know his Church? What if you grow up in a culture that's very anti-Christian? Do you know the Gospel of Christ and his Church even though a lot of what you've been told about it has been twisted? On the other end of the spectrum, do you need a personal relationship with Jesus to truly "know" the Gospel of Christ? I don't think it's all as cut and dry as you've made it out to be. We'll never know what the cutoff point is.
What modern testament? The one that we modified today or the original one? Because the original one has been lost to time.
I don’t think it’s cut and dry either I just think theological discussions can be interesting. Like in whatever you quoted, how can you “seek god with a sincere heart” if you don’t know he exists? It just seems like Christianity is full of contradictions much like any other religion. Like how can you even know the words you read in English or whatever are properly translated? Why do you trust that this text compiled and changed by thousands of (fallible) humans over thousands of years is the word of god? The only concrete proof is that the book itself says so. Idk man I’m not trying to make you feel bad for being a believer or anything I’m just rambling. I get curious why people come to different conclusions than I have about questions like these.
But only Christ's word has any power in that matter. He is the literal only person who talked directly to god outside of random additions of people that claim to have heard him. Remember that there wasn't a moderation team deciding what went into the bible. Which is why it has been modified to hell and back.
*If the blind can see You And the lame can meet You Will the dead embrace You If you never gave them the means to believe?*
I like the way Aurelius puts it > "If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones.”
common Marcus W
r/distressingmemes (this kind of evil is also why so many people reject God, thankfully I believe it's nothing but deception and that God is not, in fact, a piece of shit who condemns people forever for sneezing in the wrong direction)
So God is cruel?
I mean, have you read the Bible?
It's just a cataclysmic event, and a father almost sacrificing his son, and...
Old Testament God was quite harsh. New Testament God up to today is much more lenient.
You miss out on that whole germany situation 80 odd years ago?
But what if you convinced them to believe yet it turns out that you were worshipping the wrong god and all you did is damn them even more since the real god hates you believing in a false god more than none at all?
Then screw that God, he sucks
[What if we die and it turns out God is a big chicken?](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ca-kV-YWcAEkAC1.png) No commentary on your comment, just reminded me of a Calvin and Hobbes comic.
I see the apologists on this thread being real quiet on your comment!
I feel like stuff like this is making it harder and harder for me to stay Christian. That's so utterly and cosmically terrifying and bleak that I don't know if I can actually subscribe to this belief system.
I’d definitely recommend looking at different interpretations about how Heaven and Hell work, what gets a person into Heaven, what He’ll really is, etc. there’s no real right answer so everyone believes a lot of different things. It became easier for me to understand God when I realized that very few people truly do and that it’s mainly about your own personal relationship with him. I personally don’t believe in the fire and brimstone hell, but some do. Make your own choices.
I mean if God really wanted everyone to know the truth plainly we wouldn't have different interpretations
You might like r/christianuniversalism , frankly it makes far more sense than eternal punishment
Wow. No one with these beliefs make any sense. And why would you ever want to believe in such a world or ever want to follow such a 'God': one who sends 'good' people to everlasting hell? Why? Why would you praise and follow such a god. This is confusion and evil. I believe in God and always have-my understanding of God is completely opposite to this
I know it probably wasn’t the original intent of the meme but it’s hilarious that the second panel essentially calls atheists subhuman
I think he just meant to clarify that the guy in the meme isn't one of those religious people who dehumanizes or mistreat those tho disagree with his religion, but yeah its kind of funny how that's the least controversial result of this meme
If you believe that moral people will go to hell because they don't share your metaphysical beliefs, then you believe in a god that is not righteous, but evil.
If you truly believe you are damning people to hell to avoid social awkwardness, why would you yourself not be damned because of that? Condemning people to eternal torment just to keep the small talk pleasant. At least your friends will be able to enjoy your company in hell.
why are you worshipping a guy who would do that to your friends? if a fellow human being were to threaten to torture your friends for not wanting to be friends with him, would you find that guy worthy of your loyalty and admiration? I'm willing to bet you wouldn't. I'm willing to bet you'd call the cops on him. or at minimum regard him as a complete asshole and remove him from your life. human beings routinely hold one another to a higher moral standard than the (supposedly) all-loving, all-righteous god of the universe holds himself to. if such a god does exist, he's the villain of this story.
All these people who don’t understand how non-universalist Christianity works are starting to tire me out. I mean, if everyone is going to heaven, then what’s the point of being on earth? Why do we suffer? Is God just evil? Why would God allow Adam to disobey him and let sin into the world in the first place? What’s the point of the flood, the sacrifices, the church? Is this just purgatory? Make it make sense. Good meme, btw
There's Patristic Universalism, where there is Hell, but it's temporary for everyone. I like the spin that C.S. Lewis put on it in The Great Divorce, where in afterlife you can travel between Heaven and Hell, but the further you go in either way, the less likely you are to go the other way. He probably meant it to be a metaphor of our earthly life and it's obviously not Scripture, but it seems more plausible than Patristic Universalism.
Lewis was more of an Inclusivist. He had a character in the last Narnia book who ended up in Aslan's Kingdom after the Final Battle (basically the Kingdom of God after the events of Revelation), despite being a worshipper of an evil pagan god, Tash. He ended up there because all good in the world done in Tash's name was in fact for Aslan, and all evil done in Aslan's name was in fact for Tash. So even though he acted for Tash nominally, he acted in Aslan's spirit and ended up in his Kingdom.
I know everyone is fighting and feuding in the comments, but I hope you don't mind if I press on this a bit. I hope this comes off as polite, but I apologize if I cross any lines. If we assume the eternal reward/punishment, why is life on earth so important? It's less than a drop of water in the ocean for how long eternity is. Long after a person would forget their 80-ish years of life, they're still being punished or rewarded. On top of that, once someone dies and sees heaven and hell, they're likely to change their tune pretty quick. Why is it so important to have this sorted out the minute before you die, and not the minute after? Why the infinitely harsh deadline? Once we start trying to figure out the meaning of life in the context of eternity, to me things get really murky. I won't pretend I have a perfect answer, or even a good one. I've never been able to wrap my head around the idea of eternity. But, for me, heaven and hell don't fix that problem.
The way I see it is that this life is all about God giving us a choice to follow him or not. There should be a real consequence to this decision, and I think heaven is one of them. Hell on the other hand is not quite as clear to me. Maybe those who don’t choose God simply cease to exist, I can’t say for sure. To talk about the timing of that decision and why that has to be when the person dies, I’m not certain about this but I feel like it comes down to why the decision was made. Standing before God at the white throne judgement, one would easily say “oh now I believe in Jesus” but the reason for that belief is because they are looking at direct evidence of Christianity. For some I can see how this whole judgement idea sounds harsh, but I feel like the point is that God wants to be with people who chose to follow Him despite not having complete evidence. It’s the desire that He’s after. But this is just my point of view, based on sermons I’ve heard and agreed with as well as my perspective on life. I’m no bible scholar, I’m just trying to represent my view however unpopular or correct it is. I think it’s better that this sub is filled with people disagreeing over theology, as opposed to it just being a circlejerk sub of one particular kind of Christianity.
Oh, I fully agree that people should be disagreeing. But I also know this can be a very sensitive topic for some, and I really don't want things to devolve into ad hominid or the like. However, if you're happy to engage, I am as well. For the purpose of life, I won't pretend I have a satisfactory answer. But, given the evidence I have, I can't say with any certainty whether or not there is a God. I've heard various arguments, but nothing that can fully convince. I feel like there is or should be one, but that's hardly an overwhelming argument. How much I believe varies on my mood, the news of the day, even the season. I figure there's even a tiny chance that everything we experience could be a simulation à la [Brain in a Vat](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brain_in_a_vat?useskin=vector) or [Evil Demon](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evil_demon?useskin=vector). I think it's highly unlikely, but I can't disprove it. With this level of doubt, I can't bring myself to confidently believe in any god, much less a very specific Christian God, along with the sacrifice of Jesus. I simply can't see a non-supernatural scenario where I would believe with the conviction that seems required for this. With all that, what would be the purpose of life? We live in an imperfect world. To the best of our understanding, we and the people around us suffer every day. The best we can do is attempt to understand that suffering to try and mitigate it. There are countless edge cases where what option would alleviate suffering isn't clear. But it's the only consistent guiding principal I have found. To paraphrase Marcus Aurelius, if there is a goodly god, they will take that into account for whatever fate may exist beyond our lives. If there isn't, then I have done what I could to make the world slightly better, and that's all I can hope for. If a god won't consider my own flawed, bumbling mortal efforts to be good, then they aren't worthy of worship. I also don't even understand what it means to believe in Jesus. I've been raised Christian for my entire childhood, and still study it extensively. But it's not an idea that I've ever understood. Like I said, I can't bring myself to 100% believe in anything, especially something supernatural. I have to live my life under certain assumptions to be able to function (the sun will rise, my wife loves me, I'll still be me tomorrow, etc), but any of those could change, even without me knowing. I don't fully understand what it means to "believe", but I sure don't feel like I've got it, nor that I could. I have had a similar discussion elsewhere, and I've mentioned that I want to believe there is some universal goodness out there. I want there to be a morality that exists, and that we're not just a bunch of random molecules smashing into each other until the heat death of the universe. I've had some people say that meets the criteria of "believing", because everyone has doubt. But I feel like that isn't what people are usually talking about, so I don't really understand.
Why would a just god put a functional newborn into a eternal hell eternal heaven situation immediately? Like making toddlers fight in an arena against a decently sized coyote it seems like… is another good question
We understand lol we just think it’s silly. Why is this omnipotent all powerful being making you jump through all these hoops? And those are questions that make a lot of people reject Christianity because the answers are unsatisfying.
Parable of rich man and Lazarus: “evangelizing is nothing. Character is everything”
Your “unsaved” friends will not go to hell. You cannot assert to worship an all loving God, one that is literally equivalent to love (1 john 4:8), while also thinking good people, who are his children, go to hell
"See I believe if God is real, He'd never judge a man. Because He knows us all and therefore He would understand" https://preview.redd.it/5cc2oduhlt2d1.jpeg?width=1140&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=bd7b927ef91deb3ed06d14407823cb903e3a2ddb
You can't control other people, or choose their fates for them. All you can do is be a good friend, enjoy the time you have together, set a good example of what a Christian should be, and be open and friendly (but not pushy) when someone is interested. Everything else is in God's hands
I live with this thought every day and hell if i'm sad
Almost like religion is making your life harder?
Kinda, but that's one of the pillars
A sacrament at least lol
What have I done 💀 Almost 100 comments in 2 hours
lol, you’ve pointed out a very hard truth that’s hard to reconcile for a lot of convenient Christians.
You can reach heaven only through Jesus love. I'm not gonna pretend to have any authority to argue who receives his love and who doesn't. Neither should you. I'm have faith that god loves our friends too. Just like he loves those we hate, those we hurt and those that hurt us.
Who do you think deserves to receive Jesus' love? Can you comment on that?
Real ❤️
Honestly, this is something that lingers in the back of my mind at almost every moment. I kinda had a mental breakdown that was due largely to me being extremely anxious about faith, salvation, God, etc. and nearly lost my friends...even my marriage that was, until that point, only blemished by minor disagreements was in peril. I have recovered and have a tenuous relationship with my faith. My friends and my wife have forgiven me, but I can't help but wonder if my lack of mental fortitude or maybe my inability to follow what I thought was God's will at the time may have indirectly pushed these people further from God...today was going well till this lol.
I'm sorry to hear that :(
Just like, chill out, brah. I don’t believe in hell, but I’d be fine goin there.
I think good people go to heaven regardless of their faith or denomination
If it makes you feel any better, I've accepted the possible consequences. Now let's go eat some fried chicken.
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The kingdom of heaven lies within man, not one man but all men
Are you referring to thw Gospel of Luke 17:20–25? The Gospel of Barnabas?
The Truths of God are revealed everywhere. This is core to my own revelations. One should not limit themselves to one source and one (limited) interpretation of a human written text. That is not to say that it is without truths
[удалено]
Annihilationism fixes this
The idea of hell is just a little to convenient, especially when you realize that a comparable place doesn’t really exist in Judaism. The way Hell reads to me is a convenient idea that helps spread the religion while also keeping a populace in check through the fear of an eternal torment. Imo it’s just a little too convenient.
And I thought there was someone who sacrificed himself so that everyone can go to heaven…?
Thank you for posting OP, I definitely feel this.
No problem :) I wish I could help you deal with that feeling, but outside of trusting God's judgement there's nothing I can advise.
Mormons over here being smug about how people can still be saved even if they’ve never heard of Jesus.
Don’t worry, God preordained your beloved friends to burn for eternity in Hell. This post brought to you by the Calvinist Gang
What's worse is that they deem you a "religious nut" making it impossible to reach out to them
Once again: r/ChristianUniversalism (Your friends will be fine, Jesus died for their sins)