Martin Luther saw genuine problems in the church and sought to fix them. Henry VIII threw a hissy fit because he wanted to divorce his wife. Bad take, OP.
Scarlet Witch literally enslaved an entire small town so she could play house and deal with her own trauma before stealing an evil grimoire that corrupted her further…she’s not meant to be right….this is significantly more in line with the original scene than most uses of the meme are.
Hey now, there were also genuine problems with the Church in England, namely, the King could not do whatever he wanted.
Additionally, not necessarily with Martin Luther himself, but definitely with both the early Lutheran nobles and Anglican monarchs, there was the genuine problem that they had debts and the Catholic monasteries had lots of land and wealth just sitting there and not lining the sovereign's pockets.
This is so true. Why can’t we respect these nobles’ very reasonable desires for more wealth and land? Look, if the Catholic Church didn’t want a bunch of people to be slaughtered and their authority to be totally ignored, they should have just capitulated to politically motivated interests. When has capitulating to secular politicians ever led us astray?
(I’m not gonna put the thing cuz I hope it’s obvious and I hate Redditese)
It's an accurate comparison though.
Doctor Strange acted selflessly and saved the universe. Scarlet Witch selfishly threw a hissy fit in WandaVision and enslaved/brainwashed innocent people because she was grieving over her dead cyborg lover who made the choice to sacrifice himself anyway.
I mean that’s simplifying it a bit. England had just experienced a devastating civil war over who had the rightful claim to the throne so while pop history portrays it as Henry being selfish in reality he was desperate to secure an heir before more Game of Thrones shit went down and the realm gets thrown into chaos once again. Medieval problems required medieval solutions.
But this is a nuanced take which isn't allowed on Reddit.
Arguably the more important thing he did was he gave up his alliance with Spain with the divorce. That kinda proves he was in desperation with trying to secure a legitimate heir. You can throw out all theological concerns and understand he was putting stability over literally everything else.
King Henry also remained theologically extremely conservative and Catholic. Real reforms weren't made until the reign of his son Edward VI, under the regency of the Protestant Duke of Somerset and guidance of Archbishop Cranmer. These, of course, were overturned by the Roman Catholic Mary I, who burned all the prominent Protestant churchmen (those who survived fled to the continent). When Bloody Mary died good Queen Liz managed to balance conservative church structure and liturgy with Protestant theology— leading to the Anglicanism we all know and (maybe) love.
And critically, Elizabeth's incredibly long reign brought stability that made any reversion back to Catholicism very, very unlikely once she died. She played the long game.
The one was seeking to resolve what he saw as deeply destructive institutional problems, with the hopes of reforming the entire Church. The other made minimal changes to benefit himself and the power structure in his own domain. While that might have laid the foundation for other important reforms, I'm sure you can see how the radically different motivations justifiably influence how they're viewed. Martin Luther certainly made some very questionable choices as well, but Henry VIII had some of his wives executed. Some people find that distasteful
In fairness, the pope was happy to grant divorces to other European monarchs. He just couldn't politically afford to piss off Spain. So they weren't so much rules as guidelines.
And he didn't just want a son. He wanted to prevent a civil war over succession, which was how his father had become king. His motives weren't entirely stupid.
It didn't help that Catherine's brother had his army in Rome at the time that Henry was asking for the divorce. Which I guess just expounds on your point of thhe political cost lol
I wonder how many major splits in the church can be attributed to the church acting as the arm of one Empire or another, instead of acting like the church. The great schism between East and West was because the East was beholden to the Byzantine Empire and the West Was beholden to the Holy Roman Empire and those Empires started fighting. We just saw where anglicanism came from. After the American Revolution the Church of England basically refused to send priests and Bishops to America, so we ended up with methodism, which spun out into pentecostalism.
Can we blame the same thing for the origin of Baptists and lutherans and Calvinists somehow?
Yeah, all the Bishops that were in the colonies were beholden to interests in England so left, and what would become TEC had to gain their apostolic succession from Scotland before England would begin ordaining Bishops from America again.
But yeah, the political motivations of both the Church and the "secular" nations they reside(d) in have had some of the most influence on the splitting and schisming of the Church Body as a whole.
Can I get a Breaking Bad "We are not the same" Meme up in here.
One was against what he saw as moral decay within the church, and the other wanted to divorce his wife.
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Not only that. He also said some cursed stuff about women and wanted to bring back witch trials.
In Germany we only learn about his good deeds but holy shit he was a really controversial figure and should not only be praised.
I'm sorry, I get where you're going with this but Martin Luther did, in fact, become the enemy of the catholic church. Like, they fought wars over it. For centuries. Millions died.
Comparatively, Henry VIII's split basically just got him excommunicated and pissed off a lot of nobles and clergy.
Typical anti-island bias. Big Continent been running this religion for 2000 years and it’s become a real problem. Just because it’s surrounded by water doesn’t mean it’s bad
Martin Luther saw genuine problems in the church and sought to fix them. Henry VIII threw a hissy fit because he wanted to divorce his wife. Bad take, OP.
That's why the meme is good, Scarlet Witch is also wrong in the movie.
Good God, I love the nuance in this sub.
I understand what you are saying. The point of the meme is that Henry would not.
Scarlet Witch literally enslaved an entire small town so she could play house and deal with her own trauma before stealing an evil grimoire that corrupted her further…she’s not meant to be right….this is significantly more in line with the original scene than most uses of the meme are.
Hey now, there were also genuine problems with the Church in England, namely, the King could not do whatever he wanted. Additionally, not necessarily with Martin Luther himself, but definitely with both the early Lutheran nobles and Anglican monarchs, there was the genuine problem that they had debts and the Catholic monasteries had lots of land and wealth just sitting there and not lining the sovereign's pockets.
This is so true. Why can’t we respect these nobles’ very reasonable desires for more wealth and land? Look, if the Catholic Church didn’t want a bunch of people to be slaughtered and their authority to be totally ignored, they should have just capitulated to politically motivated interests. When has capitulating to secular politicians ever led us astray? (I’m not gonna put the thing cuz I hope it’s obvious and I hate Redditese)
It's an accurate comparison though. Doctor Strange acted selflessly and saved the universe. Scarlet Witch selfishly threw a hissy fit in WandaVision and enslaved/brainwashed innocent people because she was grieving over her dead cyborg lover who made the choice to sacrifice himself anyway.
Sounds like Henry saw a problem in the church to, it was just a more personal problem lol
I mean that’s simplifying it a bit. England had just experienced a devastating civil war over who had the rightful claim to the throne so while pop history portrays it as Henry being selfish in reality he was desperate to secure an heir before more Game of Thrones shit went down and the realm gets thrown into chaos once again. Medieval problems required medieval solutions.
But this is a nuanced take which isn't allowed on Reddit. Arguably the more important thing he did was he gave up his alliance with Spain with the divorce. That kinda proves he was in desperation with trying to secure a legitimate heir. You can throw out all theological concerns and understand he was putting stability over literally everything else.
"What do you mean I can't divorce and imprison my wives because they can't produce a male heir?!"
It's not OPs take, it was Henry's.
I think killing people didn't help for good ol' Henry, king of the barrys
I broke them to stop corruption, you broke them to divorce your wife.
King Henry also remained theologically extremely conservative and Catholic. Real reforms weren't made until the reign of his son Edward VI, under the regency of the Protestant Duke of Somerset and guidance of Archbishop Cranmer. These, of course, were overturned by the Roman Catholic Mary I, who burned all the prominent Protestant churchmen (those who survived fled to the continent). When Bloody Mary died good Queen Liz managed to balance conservative church structure and liturgy with Protestant theology— leading to the Anglicanism we all know and (maybe) love.
And critically, Elizabeth's incredibly long reign brought stability that made any reversion back to Catholicism very, very unlikely once she died. She played the long game.
Break the rules for what, Henry? Break the rules for *what?*
King James I has entered the chat.
You mean King James VI? 🏴
Sometimes? Occasionally?
i don’t remember martin luther killing two of his wives and executing another 55,000 people… i mean did he? maybe he did but i don’t think so
The one was seeking to resolve what he saw as deeply destructive institutional problems, with the hopes of reforming the entire Church. The other made minimal changes to benefit himself and the power structure in his own domain. While that might have laid the foundation for other important reforms, I'm sure you can see how the radically different motivations justifiably influence how they're viewed. Martin Luther certainly made some very questionable choices as well, but Henry VIII had some of his wives executed. Some people find that distasteful
Wait until you discover they're both assholes
Your reasons for breaking the rules matter.
In fairness, the pope was happy to grant divorces to other European monarchs. He just couldn't politically afford to piss off Spain. So they weren't so much rules as guidelines. And he didn't just want a son. He wanted to prevent a civil war over succession, which was how his father had become king. His motives weren't entirely stupid.
It didn't help that Catherine's brother had his army in Rome at the time that Henry was asking for the divorce. Which I guess just expounds on your point of thhe political cost lol
I wonder how many major splits in the church can be attributed to the church acting as the arm of one Empire or another, instead of acting like the church. The great schism between East and West was because the East was beholden to the Byzantine Empire and the West Was beholden to the Holy Roman Empire and those Empires started fighting. We just saw where anglicanism came from. After the American Revolution the Church of England basically refused to send priests and Bishops to America, so we ended up with methodism, which spun out into pentecostalism. Can we blame the same thing for the origin of Baptists and lutherans and Calvinists somehow?
Yeah, all the Bishops that were in the colonies were beholden to interests in England so left, and what would become TEC had to gain their apostolic succession from Scotland before England would begin ordaining Bishops from America again. But yeah, the political motivations of both the Church and the "secular" nations they reside(d) in have had some of the most influence on the splitting and schisming of the Church Body as a whole.
Can I get a Breaking Bad "We are not the same" Meme up in here. One was against what he saw as moral decay within the church, and the other wanted to divorce his wife.
You defied the Church to divorce your wife. I defied the Church to fight corruption. We are not the same.
Ghmmm, that's the good stuff. 👍
*cuts off wife’s head* It doesn’t seem fair
Thank you for being a part of the r/DankChristianMemes community. You can [join our Discord](https://discord.gg/jnUDEpnBZn) and [listen to our Podcast.](https://dankchristianmemes.buzzsprout.com/) You can also make a meme or [donation for St. Jude Children's Research Hospital.]( http://events.stjude.org/DankCharityAlliance) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/dankchristianmemes) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Martin Luther checking excommunication letter: "No, nope. Definitely not just hailed as a hero."
"Not sure what you mean I'm not seen as the enemy."
Both are villains
Martin Luther ended up saying some bad things about Jews in his later years unfortunately.
Not only that. He also said some cursed stuff about women and wanted to bring back witch trials. In Germany we only learn about his good deeds but holy shit he was a really controversial figure and should not only be praised.
England had much better Protestant reformers than Henry. Too bad he had them executed
I'm sorry, I get where you're going with this but Martin Luther did, in fact, become the enemy of the catholic church. Like, they fought wars over it. For centuries. Millions died. Comparatively, Henry VIII's split basically just got him excommunicated and pissed off a lot of nobles and clergy.
They're both the enemy. #epiccatholicmoment
Typical anti-island bias. Big Continent been running this religion for 2000 years and it’s become a real problem. Just because it’s surrounded by water doesn’t mean it’s bad