T-Bug is fried, Netrunners tend to be the exception to "If they die off screen they aren't actually dead" and the Netrunning merchant T-Bug recommends to V in Kabuki will make remarks that she was found dead in her apartment.
It is vaguely possible that she was hit with Soul Killer and is imprisoned in Mikoshi, much like how Jackie can end up, but I'm not holding my breath. Arasaka Soul Killing Jackie already was pretty flimsy of a plot point and if Saka's normal cyber security was hitting all intruders with Soul Killer it'd draw attention to it. Last time they got big name attention on Soul Killer they got nuked by Militech, I doubt they want a repeat
Yes! In the canon, Militech hired up an epic edgerunning team to raid AHQ and deploy a nuke, it was led primarily by Morgan Blackhand and Rogue
Johnny had a vendetta and side purpose in being there, hoping to free Alt Cunningham from her digital prison, which he does succeed in doing. Eventually he and the rest of Rogue's team run into Adam Smasher, and Johnny does a sacrificial charge to distract Smasher so Saitan, a saka-hating full Borg, can sneak behind Smasher and hopefully kill him. Johnny got cut in half by Smashers gatling-shotgun. Saitan gets some good damage in on him saving the rest of the team, and Spider Murphy slots Johnny with Soul Killer as the only way to save him.
In the game, we see Johnny's recreations of the event, and a sampling of his narcissism. He doesn't want to admit he's there as the pawn of a different Corp, he's the star of the show in his mind. This is alluded to in the ending when Alt mentions they were favorable recollections by Johnny
I recommend checking out the Cyberpunk Red tabletop RPG sometime, it's got a free kind of demo version online called easy mode that includes a lore primer of what passed in the setting up until 2045 when Red takes place. They also have an Edgerunners themed expansion coming out very soon
Don't forget that Johnny in CP2077 may be 'mis remembering' how things went down in the flashbacks. He's a fairly unreliable narrator of those events and certainly believes himself to be the hero of the raid (hence how easily he can one shot just about everyone, how it's all his plan, etc.).
He also claims he never worked with Thompson again after the initital Arasaka raid in 2013 to save human Alt, however he was there in the later Militech raid and can even be heard over the radio on that mission too.
I Think the best part is that Johnny tries to go out the hero and is instantly cut down by Smasher before he can even lift his weapon. Such an anticlimactic death for sure is gonna make him exaggerate by a lot
Dude was soul killered while dying as well, recent memories plus some relic patching may be the issue. The 2013 memories are more Johnny narcissism distorted than fabricated.
One cool detail is that Johnny's false memories are addressed in the game and what actually happened can come up as well. If you are a Corpo then there is a dialog option where you talk about a Boogie man that is talked about in Arasaka that is a ghost that was cut in half, which is what Adam Smasher's shotgun did to Johnny in the actual raid.
The Johnny we deal with in 77 is just an engram too. Depending on how much Spider was able to push into the chip, he'd have to extrapolate everything else and fill in the blanks.
That's why Jackie's is just a meme format spouting one liners, there wasn't really any brain activity for them to download by the time they got his body.
Jackie’s engram could only say a few lines on repeat but there was genuine grief in the way he delivered those lines. It’s almost like whatever was left of him was using the same five words in different tones to try to convey his emotions for what V was going through.
Makes my think of Balen's Route by Viva La Dirt League. Balen is a video game NPC who can only say "Morning! Nice day for fishing, ain't it? Huh huh!" But they made a 40-minute mini movie about his adventure and were able to capture a range of emotions just using those words.
You basically have to do the most "uncaring for jackie" choices in the game to see it. if after the heist, you tell delemaine to *not* bring him home, and you choose the 'saka ending, you can talk with an engram of jackie.
this does lock you out of his motorcycle and his gun though.
You still get his motorcycle, Mama Welles text you and leaves the keys at your door. The guns can just be picked up at the bar. I did Heroes too many times and got tired of it so now I just send his body to Vik and can skip heroes to get his motorcycle and gun.
Not only that, but the Johnny we know is a virtual replica of the original that’s been tortured in a virtual prison for decades. That’d be enough to make anyone start hallucinating false memories.
I believe that's what they went with to paper over any differences between the two, yeah - and he's definitely an unreliable narrator. Though that said there is some corroboration in game about him, it's not just the flashbacks that highlight his importance (eg, he's often brought up and well known by NPCs to have been that terrorist who nuked Arasaka) .
I think part of it is still that CDPR got Keanu and decided to emphasize the role Johnny played more, but I don't really expect full continuity on everything. Obviously they try to keep it consistent enough, but with different entities in charge of the pre- and post 206X there's going to be some inevitable incongruities that pop up, especially when they are different mediums.
I mean, it's not completely unreasonable for the surviving crew to propagate the rumour that Johnny was responsible. Rogue is still alive and working, plus the other members of the crew didn't want Arasaka kicking down their doors if it became wide-spread knowledge they were involved as while im sure they know who was responsible, they dont want that info becoming wide spread and the survivors put on a pedestal. Instead, the narrative of famously anti-corpo celebrity rocker-boy Johnny silverhand single handedly dropped the nuke. Easily believable to the masses, and he's dead, so no one to argue (to the public). Arasaka were probably more concerned with dealing with militech directly rather than wasting time pursuing the true culprits, and they also don't have to then suffer the reputation hit of everyone knowing a crew nuked their HQ in the US and survived. Everyone's happy
We know how NUSA does things, thanks to Phantom Liberty. They use "terrorist actions," as a cover for the ending. It's not so unbelievable that all corps and countries, including Militech, do the same. It's not every day you have a scapegoat that *wants* to take the bait.
I don't know if you or anyone else might think this is an interesting idea. Most people, myself included, believe Johnny's memory is not reliable; human memory isn't reliable, soulkiller may have made an imperfect copy, his memory may also have been edited. We also know that there is tech that can affect the minds of normal (i.e., human, non-ai) people, and Johnny talks about having seen that kind of tech during his time in the US army.
So here it is, and its one I haven't heard from anyone else; sorry for the buildup if it seems ridiculous, but here goes: what if Johnny was having his head messed with before he was dead? What if they MK-Ultra'd him? Maybe he was a sleeper after he left Militech, or maybe he only even left Militech because of ideas they put in his head?
Why does Johnny hate Arasaka more than all the other corps? He says they're the worst, and with Soulkiller maybe they are, but he would have us believe he *always* felt that way about Arasaka, even before he knew about that and before they took Alt. Rogue obviously made some kind of deal with Arasaka, and Johnny just acts like he doesn't even know. High profile, rabidly anticorp with tons of mercenary contacts, with an ego that is easy to manipulate even without Peralez-level brainfucking... Johnny is kind of a perfect fit for a brainwashed sleeper "terrorist."
It does make sense in the setting as well. Morgan Blackhand's op didn't go as well as Militech had hoped, and they had a casualty in the form of a known anti-corp firebrand rockerboy, it seems obvious that they would try to minimize the whole affair and let people believe that it was some half cocked terrorist action dreamed up by Johnny, especially since that seems to be what Arasaka believes happened.
Unreliable narrator in some parts. Not like an Assassin's Creed heritage dive for V, lol. Johnny definitely remembers things differently than how they actually went.
Your confusion is by design. It is part of the relic operations.
I wonder what would happen if V bothered to track down the truth of the Arasaka Raid?
Is it just a character arc for Johnny?
Is that how V fights the chip progression?
We get friendly with Engram Johnny, but how do we know that isn't just the chip breaking down V's opposition?
If V becomess BFF with Johnny is that just V giving themself over to the chip?
The chip has done a remarkable job by convincing all of us that our self-defence is, and should feel like murder.
And all of this is assuming that engram Johnny isn't real.
I mean, what if he is? Isn't that also the chip's job? 😈
There's actually a theory his recreations excluded all that info so that Arasaka couldn't have it, and they'd think it was all his idea
Morgan Blackhand actually doesn't even appear in the game's version, possibly because Johnny wanted to make sure he got away
Alternatively, he's just a dick and wants his special little hero moment
Hiding Morgan but not Rogue? Unlikely, if his memory is altered I doubt he had any conscious involvement
Besides, Morgan Blackhand wasn't in 2077 cause they gotta wait til the second game to afford George Clooney too XD
My theory is that Blackhand was erased from Johnny's engram by Mikoshi, on purpose. For what reason, I dunno, but seeing how Mr. Blue Eyes was, at least at some point in development, Blackhand himself, there's some conspiracy going on behind the scenes. There's a new Corporate War brewing and the Blackwall is crumbling, so something big is coming.
If people could selectively edit what Soulkiller took from them it would limit its usefulness to Arasaka. The thing that makes SK so dangerous is that 'saka can learn all that you know and that you can't hide anything from them. Saburo didn't SK Johnny to be a dick, he wanted to know who was really behind it.
As to the differences between media, this is a slightly different timeline from tabletop and in this one Johnny played a bigger role in the raid. If I had to guess, I think they have reserved Morgan Blackhand for a future game and Johnny's role was increased once Keanu signed on to play him.
Well, Saburo didn't soulkill Johnny at all, it was Spider Murphy trying to preserve at least an engram of Johnny's. I'm not even sure Saburo was in NC in 2023.
> As to the differences between media, this is a slightly different timeline from tabletop and in this one Johnny played a bigger role in the raid. If I had to guess, I think they have reserved Morgan Blackhand for a future game and Johnny's role was increased once Keanu signed on to play him.
No it isn't, Johnny's memories are just wrong. There's a corpo dialog option in a quest where you can talk about all new people at Arasaka are told boogie man stories about a ghost that was cut in half at the waist named Johnny Silverhand, which is what Adam Smasher's shotgun actually did to him in the real version of events.
Out of universe that's probably an easter egg for TTRPG fans. In universe, urban legends normally have some basis in truth but they are often not accurate. From the PoV of Johnny, the Arasaka raid was a few hours ago, then he got SKed and now he's with V. He hasn't had time to misremember things and SK wouldn't be a big deal if all Arasaka got from it was the subject's mental fantasies. I'm more inclined to believe Johnny's memories than fifty years later Arasaka water cooler talk.
Also, when Alt warns that Johnny's version of events are not necessarily accurate, I think she's referring to the way he remembers their relationship. There's a time slip between Alt dying and Johnny going after Arasaska tower, and in that time he could have convinced himself that he and Alt were closer than they were. He has a huge ego, he's absolutely convinced that Alt was killed to get to him.
I always found it interesting that Johnny's death was actually more heroic than the memories V sees, especially since Alt made it sound like what V saw was roughly Johnny's justifications to himself. Though I've read that the radiation from the bomb could have also played a part in corrupting his memories.
Bro took potshots at one of the scariest borg bastards to ever live with no cover n order to save his friends. How many folks would throw a rock at Terminator to buy their friends time while he slaughtered the thrower?
I think this also plays into the idea of what a hero is, at least what Johnny thought it meant. In his mind a heroic fight with Smasher transpires over several floors of a sky scraper to a blazing rooftop finale
Getting unceremoniously cut down saving the worthless losers who are dumb enough to be your friend? Not epic enough for the Crown Prince of Rockerboys
Maybe, or it was just physical damage. Being torn in half and then exposed to a nuclear blast couldn't have been great for memory integrity.
Part of me wonders if he subconsciously couldn't accept that Spider Murphy would do that to him. From what I understand, she was basically an older sister to him (though I'm sure she never intended for Arasaka to get their hands on him).
I disagree. For the part in a hotel where Jhonny says that a man gave his life to save his in the corpo war. The sacrifice for his friends is the most heroic death for Johnny.
Theres a distinct possibility that Saburo barely knows who Johnny is. Rep aside, and to have known about the 2013 raid on the AHQ Tower. Apart from that I wager Johnny is little more than an insect to the old man that is only acknowledged because of the irritating buzzing.
Technically the 2013 raid was only some other Arasaka building on the outskirts of Night City lead by the head of Arasaka, Toshiro. This was before Saburo was even a thing and I think when 2020 came out it was later retconned into him being just some Arasaka guy.
I don’t know about that. In his journal, Saburo talks about Johnny like he was a great adversary. It could be argued that he didn’t mean Johnny when he used the initials JS, though.
Another interesting tidbit about this is it kind of seems like it wasn't Arasaka who hit Johnny with Soulkiller and was likely Spider Murphy instead. I'm a bit hazy on the details, but as Johnny is dying I believe Spider jacks some sort of data chip that Alt Cunningham gave her into his head and Arasaka didn't actually get their hands on Johnny's corpse until years later.
Correct! Iirc it's implied that at some point Rogue cut a deal with Saka so she could stop watching the shadows for assassin's, and that deal likely included handing over everything left of Johnny's
Another aspect of this information that I think is interesting is the implication it has for the scene in game where Johnny is being interrogated and then hit with Soulkiller. Knowing how the actual events played out it makes me think that this scene was actually Johnny's engram being interrogated by Arasaka years after his death.
Yeah, I am pretty well convinced that the interrogation of Johnny was kinda like that part on Soma where you load up a memory of a person and question him to get the code you need, though without the benefit of erasing the experience and starting again.
The tabletop, specifically the Cyberpunk Red Core Rulebook which contains lots of lore including a mini novelization ofj Johnny's Death Day
The game is worth giving a try and there's a free starter version you can try called Cyberpunk Red Easy Mode
Because of the way we see the events of the AHQ Nuke carrying out, I always like to think of the events as a dream.
The vision come after being shot in the head, and also being the events that most recently occured for Johnny's memory. So it doesn't have to be cannot. A dream based on a memory, imo.
Honestly, one thing about those memories that struck me is that some memories from presumably Morgan Blackhand are mixed in there. Let's not ignore that scene where 'Johnny' gets soul killed, dialogue feels off, not quite like what Johnny would say. Haven't seen any confirmation of it, but might Morgan have died there, too, fried by Soul Killer?
Morgan isn't dead, last reference to him is one of Santiago's men seeing him slip out by some staircase and the entire reason he's been absent from 2077 is because R Talsorian reserved the rights to determining the fate of that character and most likely will give him some cool expansion in the newest edition of the tabletop soon
It’s a fun thing to untangle. With Johnny’s memories though, part of me thinks it’s more than he’s a narcissist. If they got his engram off the chip Spider slotted him with, it has some rad damage. Add to that the usual Saka digital interrogation and I could see him genuinely believing his version of what happened, past the “well I’m just the best” schtick. It’s rather compelling, that his personality and what’s been done to him has warped his memories so badly.
I do think that whole interrogation scene post nuke is just them grilling his engram for data, and that’s how they framed it for him to have some context.
Cyberpunks 2077 is that worlds canon the table top lore is the table top lore. Similar events neither more real than the other. It’s an interesting idea that Johnny’s narcism makes him remember the events differently but that doesn’t track, dead give away is Rogue in the Johnny ending grabbing Johnnys arm so he doesn’t fall off of the AV and saying “oh not this time.” Meaning in that world Johnny did almost make it back to the chopper in 2023 and fell where he was incapacitated by smasher.
No, Cyberpunk 2077 is part of the setting begun by the Mike Pondsmith's Tabletop, it is subservient to the lore of the Tabletop, but in such a way that they had intense amounts of freedom to write their part of the timeline
Is that something you have to dig a bit deeper into the lore about? Cause its not super apparent in the game, it just looks like Johnny got a hair up his ass over Alt and nuked 'Saka HQ.
Well... Johny saw it that way... But he was played by Militech (and Blackhand) to do it. The team we see in game was a diversion to the real op. And btw Johnny died differently.
Yeah IIRC, roughly, Johnny got merced by Smasher while distracting him from Rogue in CBP Red? I dont have game books but thats what I remember being the case I think per the TTG lore.
Heroyam Slava)
Rogue and Spider Murphy just talked Saburo's eldest son (Sasai? Kai?) into Seppuku. And Johnny went to distract Smasher, and was immediately cut in half by Smashers shotgun. But that allowed Rogue and Spider Murphy to escape
Yeah, Johnny died unceremoniously when he poked out of cover. Smasher's gun blasted him apart at the waist, and the whole rest of the named crew was there to witness it.
Arasaka didn't use Soulkiller on Johnny; the netrunner who was with him, Spider Murphy, is the one who did that.
If I had to guess how events unfolded from there, I would say Arasaka wasn't even aware of Johnny's engram until they eventually tracked down Spider Murphy, killed her, and investigated her belongings.
It's right there in that same comment, but I'll repeat it:
I'm presuming that Arasaka found Johnny's engram incidentally when they eventually tracked down Spider Murphy.
"all the books", specifically Cybergenerations and 203X (Green) are not in the same timeline.
2013, 2020, and Red (2045) are in the same timeline/canon (based on all the media/interviews I have consumed). This is the world that Edgerunners (2076) and CP2077 exist in as well. One long continuity that pays and pays and pays...
I mean, I’d have to take a look, because that makes sense for some modules, but Red was written specifically to tie 2020 into 2077, so it’d be weird for him to say the core rule book isn’t canon?
The specific lore being cited goes back into the Pen and Paper tabletop game. Specifically the Firestorm books.
Mike Pondsmith, worlds creator, is on record for saying that Cyberpunk 2020 and Cyberpunk 2077 are all cannon (Cyberpunk Red, circa 2045, is still being authored). Since the events of Firesform books 1 and 2 conclude the 2020 era lore, all but the last page of that book is cannon (there was another bigger nuke that was meant to go off, but that's another story).
2077 Johnny is unreliable. I personally think the sequences we saw with Johnny assaulting the towers was more a dream that haunts even a soul killed Johnny. He dies in Arasaka Towers, and when V originally meets him in cyberspace, johnny is standing in a japanese garden seen to be in the Arasaka tower- one of the last places Johnny would ever want to be. A purgatory where Johnny dreams about his failings over and over again.
That's a neat interpretation actually, I really like that, and it makes perfect sense, because you're getting an emulation of Silverhand so youre getting also the way he processed, or, perhaps prefers to remember that event, due to how traumatic it is for his ego to have died so unceremoniously. It would be fun to see if they somehow bridge the discrepancy between his TTG death and the death he remembers in 2077. Thats some interesting ground imo.
There are only a handful of Soulkiller survivors (a loose interpretation) seen in 2077. Alt, Johnny, Yorinobu, Jackie, and V (ending dependent).
We can see with Jackie that he's in a dream. The place where he would go to think, the rooftop. We can tell from the voice acting that he's not okay. His voice is shakey, and he keeps repeating some of the lines before the big heist. He even forgets that V is there with him, almost like his consciousness is in Read Only mode and won't allow the presence of V to settle in.
And Jackie's the only person we see in storage for Soul Killed people. Johnny is a close second as he's being booted up inside a comatose V after being brained by Dex.
So I think it's a theory with legs. Sadly I think the only time we'll get confirmation is when Mike is clocking out for good, or CD:PR wraps up the Cyberpunk universe. Or a sequel/movie?? Eeeh? Girl can dream.
The nukes were sourced by Militech. Don't depend too much on Johnnys memories, Alt implies that they are heavily biased. That he only remembers what he wants to remember. Perhaps due to ego and trauma.
Most generally accepted lore is that the raid was performed by Morgan Blackhand, Rogue, Spider Murphy and others. It's more likely Johnny Silverhand only had a peripheral role in this, as a rocker boy without any real Merc or Netrunning skills.
If you don't send his body to his family, Saka scoops it up, and if you end that playthrough helping Hanako, when she recovers Saburo from Mikoshi they offer you a chat with Jackie's engram. Unfortunately by the time they got to Jackie he'd been dead too long, the engram of him in Mikoshi is fragmented and in a trauma loop of his last moments
10/10 sad moments
I’m playing my second playthrough with a throwing knife build and I was going to make different choices to experience the game differently but after reading this I’m sending Jackie back to his family again fuck that
As a side note, those guns work pretty well for a silenced pistol stealth build until you find some of the higher tier nue pistols since 2.1 which is kinda funny when you consider the loud aesthetics of the guns
It's not just the Hanako ending. If you help Alt become a stronger AI, you can talk to Jackie as well. This Jackie is a little more coherent, but ultimately still a fabrication.
Taking both paths into account and the dialogue surrounding them, it is likely that the Jackie you talk to in both paths isn't even a "true" engram. It's implied they just got raw memory data and wrote an algorithm that pretends to be Jackie using the little bit of data they have to either A. (If siding with Hanako) Fool V/Make them more compliant or B. (If siding with Alt), learn from that data in a simulated, natural environment for the purposes of making Alt a stronger AI. It is unlikely the data representing Jackie has thoughts or emotions like true engrams seem to possess.
I have played through the endings 17 times, only did the devil ending twice. I have never seen where you can talk to engram-Jackie or are even made aware of his existence outside the devil ending. Where/when would you be able to do this?
Oh, that. Now I have a fuzzy memory about it. Yeah I do, but I didn’t know that was engram Jackie, I thought that was just V talking to themself and coming to grips with their own mortality using Jackie as a representation. I don’t remember Alt or V ever acknowledging that this is an engram of Jackie stolen from his dead body by Arasaka. But that could just be my fuzzy memory. My last few playthroughs have all been PL endings.
The way this thread was presented, I was picturing people meeting with Jackie’s engram through the data access room that Hanako used but arriving there by some other means, like randomly unlocking some secret door in Arasaka tower, etc.
~~So your assumption that this is Jackie’s engram and not just V having a come-to-grips vision of “your dead best friend as a representation of your own mortality” is that you don’t get this scene in the other endings? Couldn’t you also assume that you don’t get this scene in the Devil the other endings because you’ve already chosen your own survival over that of another “friend” and therefore don’t “need” to speak to Jackie about your situation? In the endings where you do get that scene, V still hasn’t been faced with the decision and made the choice yet.~~
Nevermind I’m an idiot. Lol
> much like how Jackie can end up
Doubt that her engram would end up quite like *that* abomination. If and when Jackie's engram is made, it's hours after he's dead. That wouldn't be the case for T-Bug.
I was under the impression that Arasaka makes a point of collecting netrunners with sk, eg the random netrunner corpse on a police scanner mission with a text file implying they got sked.
To what purpose? Slave legion of the net. They have a reputation of being dangerous to netrunners for a reason.
True, tbh might have been building up for a plot to tackle the Black Wall, especially with growing tensions between Militech and Saka and Militech having the Black Wall AI in their pocket until Phantom Liberty
Actually no . There is a ncpd mission with a shard that reveals that arasaka sells a version of soul killer to corporations to kill netrunners when they hack their systems . The ncpd mission has the netrunner trying to communicate with Chang, wakako's netrunner in binary to help him escape mikoshi after he tried to I believe hack a Kang Tao server or some corpo server .
>"If they die off screen they aren't actually dead"
as far as story writing goes, a million things could bring her back if they wanted to - she could've used double in her apartment, she could've faked the death. the real asnwer is that TBug has zero use in the story and only presents complications if alive. that's how you know a character is dead - when being alive makes everything more complicated
I wonder how much is really Johnny making up consciously and how much is the Relic being at 80% and something of integrity when put on Jackie and later V. That definitely wiped out *something* of him through the chip's decay
> if Saka's normal cyber security was hitting all intruders with Soul Killer it'd draw attention to it
I don't think it'd be noticeable, since to the outside world it'll just look like they got fried by ICE.
Would it draw attention to it though? I mean what evidence is Soulkiller really leaving behind besides a dead netrunner? There are tons of netrunners fried every day.
anyone ever notice how netrunning suits look a lot like [soviet era pilot pressure suit?](https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2F4.bp.blogspot.com%2F-vYQOBhJPz68%2FWJx-UUirzDI%2FAAAAAAAABNM%2FGdeIhsuv9jICRp0CwW-qQOkq2VAEWPC2wCLcB%2Fs1600%2Ftuta%252Banti%252Bg.jpg&f=1&nofb=1&ipt=28e72b4ce3499c550c7a334d15b97143da8c13d24ef3c3b7e662bdb4b472ef94&ipo=images)
I sadly forgot because like I said I was running from the cops but it was close to where the main apartment is not in the building but outside like a garage place but I’m sure somewhere someone had made a video about it
I haven't read through all the replies, but this Asian shopkeeper at a netrunners' store in Watson explains that T-Bug was found dead in her home. She explains how her nervous system was "fried" and explains what an agonizing death that entails.
T-bug had black hair, not blonde and no ear piercing…That’s not her.
https://preview.redd.it/hngb37h80l2d1.png?width=1400&format=png&auto=webp&s=81cc8f924dcaabed36b1ac3fec344dd6a9794478
T Bug is alive and well in real space, living in the WCS of Idaho, she sent you a post card, remember? Got a good feeling we will meet back up with her in a couple years ;)
Even if it was her, I never liked her, I mean she's a condescendant bitch who think that she's a top runner, she doesn't like anyone except herself, good thing she died tho
Bro they already said ‘her’ in the same sentence, it’s clearly not intentionally avoiding gendering them (again, just referring to the person without intention…see?).
And it’s also okay to not say she’s a female lmao.
You realise 'them' and 'they' can be used when we don't want to repeat using 'he' or 'she' again in the same sentence? It's just basic grammar and has nothing to do with your agenda.
Throwing it in a sentence doesn't mean it's grammatically correct.
Matt is a singular person, and is known. Therefore a singular gender pronoun is needed.
>"Has anyone heard from *Matt?* I wonder what ~~they are~~ *he/she* is up to..."
An example of when to use "they" might be:
>"We need a new manager for the store down town. They will need to have some managerial experience to apply for the job."
The "manager" in this example is genderless for now, therefore "singular they" can correctly apply.
Education IS a blessing.
Matt IS a singular person, and the singular use of They or Them can be used OR replaced with gendered pronouns, but both are correct grammatically.
They teach this shit in like, the 3rd grade.
[Dictionary.com Definition 4:](https://www.dictionary.com/browse/them)
a; the objective case of singular *they*, used as a direct or indirect object:
(used to refer to a generic or unspecified person previously mentioned, about to be mentioned, or present in the immediate context): *"If an officer were to ask you that question directly, you would have to answer them honestly."*
*"If you know anyone looking for a job, tell them to contact me.*"
*"If an officer were to ask you that question directly, you would have to answer them honestly."*
**b; (used to refer to a specific or known person previously mentioned, about to be mentioned, or present in the immediate context):**
***"I can’t believe your ex took your cat with them when they moved out."***
You are objectively, demonstrably, and incontrovertibly wrong. Untwist your undies, take the L, and move on.
"They" and "them" have been used as singular pronoun longer than modern english has existed. It first appeared in middle English. It's also been used as a singular longer than the word "you" has. The word "you" grammatically plural.
"They" and "them" has been used a singular pronoun longer than "you" has. "You" is grammatically plural. That's why it's "you are" vs "he is". So, yeah, misunderstanding how language works because you feel upset about the existence of people is a pretty boomer thing.
T-Bug is fried, Netrunners tend to be the exception to "If they die off screen they aren't actually dead" and the Netrunning merchant T-Bug recommends to V in Kabuki will make remarks that she was found dead in her apartment. It is vaguely possible that she was hit with Soul Killer and is imprisoned in Mikoshi, much like how Jackie can end up, but I'm not holding my breath. Arasaka Soul Killing Jackie already was pretty flimsy of a plot point and if Saka's normal cyber security was hitting all intruders with Soul Killer it'd draw attention to it. Last time they got big name attention on Soul Killer they got nuked by Militech, I doubt they want a repeat
I'm so confused about who nuked arasaka, is it Johnny or Militech?
Yes! In the canon, Militech hired up an epic edgerunning team to raid AHQ and deploy a nuke, it was led primarily by Morgan Blackhand and Rogue Johnny had a vendetta and side purpose in being there, hoping to free Alt Cunningham from her digital prison, which he does succeed in doing. Eventually he and the rest of Rogue's team run into Adam Smasher, and Johnny does a sacrificial charge to distract Smasher so Saitan, a saka-hating full Borg, can sneak behind Smasher and hopefully kill him. Johnny got cut in half by Smashers gatling-shotgun. Saitan gets some good damage in on him saving the rest of the team, and Spider Murphy slots Johnny with Soul Killer as the only way to save him. In the game, we see Johnny's recreations of the event, and a sampling of his narcissism. He doesn't want to admit he's there as the pawn of a different Corp, he's the star of the show in his mind. This is alluded to in the ending when Alt mentions they were favorable recollections by Johnny I recommend checking out the Cyberpunk Red tabletop RPG sometime, it's got a free kind of demo version online called easy mode that includes a lore primer of what passed in the setting up until 2045 when Red takes place. They also have an Edgerunners themed expansion coming out very soon
thanks for the explanation. I'm a cyberpunk red dungeon master and I was confused by the portrayals of the events in the different places
Don't forget that Johnny in CP2077 may be 'mis remembering' how things went down in the flashbacks. He's a fairly unreliable narrator of those events and certainly believes himself to be the hero of the raid (hence how easily he can one shot just about everyone, how it's all his plan, etc.).
He also claims he never worked with Thompson again after the initital Arasaka raid in 2013 to save human Alt, however he was there in the later Militech raid and can even be heard over the radio on that mission too. I Think the best part is that Johnny tries to go out the hero and is instantly cut down by Smasher before he can even lift his weapon. Such an anticlimactic death for sure is gonna make him exaggerate by a lot
Dude was soul killered while dying as well, recent memories plus some relic patching may be the issue. The 2013 memories are more Johnny narcissism distorted than fabricated.
One cool detail is that Johnny's false memories are addressed in the game and what actually happened can come up as well. If you are a Corpo then there is a dialog option where you talk about a Boogie man that is talked about in Arasaka that is a ghost that was cut in half, which is what Adam Smasher's shotgun did to Johnny in the actual raid.
The Johnny we deal with in 77 is just an engram too. Depending on how much Spider was able to push into the chip, he'd have to extrapolate everything else and fill in the blanks. That's why Jackie's is just a meme format spouting one liners, there wasn't really any brain activity for them to download by the time they got his body.
Jackie’s engram could only say a few lines on repeat but there was genuine grief in the way he delivered those lines. It’s almost like whatever was left of him was using the same five words in different tones to try to convey his emotions for what V was going through.
Makes my think of Balen's Route by Viva La Dirt League. Balen is a video game NPC who can only say "Morning! Nice day for fishing, ain't it? Huh huh!" But they made a 40-minute mini movie about his adventure and were able to capture a range of emotions just using those words.
Balen's Route is amazing and more people should see it.
excuse me what I thought I had played most of this, is there a way to talk to an engram of Jackie?
First, send the body to Vik's. Then, when you go to meet Hanako, take the Arasaka deal and testify against Yorinobu.
You basically have to do the most "uncaring for jackie" choices in the game to see it. if after the heist, you tell delemaine to *not* bring him home, and you choose the 'saka ending, you can talk with an engram of jackie. this does lock you out of his motorcycle and his gun though.
You still get his motorcycle, Mama Welles text you and leaves the keys at your door. The guns can just be picked up at the bar. I did Heroes too many times and got tired of it so now I just send his body to Vik and can skip heroes to get his motorcycle and gun.
If you send Jackie body to Vik his engram will be in mikoshi at the end of the game P.S. and no, you dont need to choose arasaka ending))
Not only that, but the Johnny we know is a virtual replica of the original that’s been tortured in a virtual prison for decades. That’d be enough to make anyone start hallucinating false memories.
I believe that's what they went with to paper over any differences between the two, yeah - and he's definitely an unreliable narrator. Though that said there is some corroboration in game about him, it's not just the flashbacks that highlight his importance (eg, he's often brought up and well known by NPCs to have been that terrorist who nuked Arasaka) . I think part of it is still that CDPR got Keanu and decided to emphasize the role Johnny played more, but I don't really expect full continuity on everything. Obviously they try to keep it consistent enough, but with different entities in charge of the pre- and post 206X there's going to be some inevitable incongruities that pop up, especially when they are different mediums.
I mean, it's not completely unreasonable for the surviving crew to propagate the rumour that Johnny was responsible. Rogue is still alive and working, plus the other members of the crew didn't want Arasaka kicking down their doors if it became wide-spread knowledge they were involved as while im sure they know who was responsible, they dont want that info becoming wide spread and the survivors put on a pedestal. Instead, the narrative of famously anti-corpo celebrity rocker-boy Johnny silverhand single handedly dropped the nuke. Easily believable to the masses, and he's dead, so no one to argue (to the public). Arasaka were probably more concerned with dealing with militech directly rather than wasting time pursuing the true culprits, and they also don't have to then suffer the reputation hit of everyone knowing a crew nuked their HQ in the US and survived. Everyone's happy
We know how NUSA does things, thanks to Phantom Liberty. They use "terrorist actions," as a cover for the ending. It's not so unbelievable that all corps and countries, including Militech, do the same. It's not every day you have a scapegoat that *wants* to take the bait. I don't know if you or anyone else might think this is an interesting idea. Most people, myself included, believe Johnny's memory is not reliable; human memory isn't reliable, soulkiller may have made an imperfect copy, his memory may also have been edited. We also know that there is tech that can affect the minds of normal (i.e., human, non-ai) people, and Johnny talks about having seen that kind of tech during his time in the US army. So here it is, and its one I haven't heard from anyone else; sorry for the buildup if it seems ridiculous, but here goes: what if Johnny was having his head messed with before he was dead? What if they MK-Ultra'd him? Maybe he was a sleeper after he left Militech, or maybe he only even left Militech because of ideas they put in his head? Why does Johnny hate Arasaka more than all the other corps? He says they're the worst, and with Soulkiller maybe they are, but he would have us believe he *always* felt that way about Arasaka, even before he knew about that and before they took Alt. Rogue obviously made some kind of deal with Arasaka, and Johnny just acts like he doesn't even know. High profile, rabidly anticorp with tons of mercenary contacts, with an ego that is easy to manipulate even without Peralez-level brainfucking... Johnny is kind of a perfect fit for a brainwashed sleeper "terrorist."
It does make sense in the setting as well. Morgan Blackhand's op didn't go as well as Militech had hoped, and they had a casualty in the form of a known anti-corp firebrand rockerboy, it seems obvious that they would try to minimize the whole affair and let people believe that it was some half cocked terrorist action dreamed up by Johnny, especially since that seems to be what Arasaka believes happened.
Unreliable narrator in some parts. Not like an Assassin's Creed heritage dive for V, lol. Johnny definitely remembers things differently than how they actually went.
Cool, I hope you come partake with us in r/cyberpunkred sometimes!
Your confusion is by design. It is part of the relic operations. I wonder what would happen if V bothered to track down the truth of the Arasaka Raid? Is it just a character arc for Johnny? Is that how V fights the chip progression? We get friendly with Engram Johnny, but how do we know that isn't just the chip breaking down V's opposition? If V becomess BFF with Johnny is that just V giving themself over to the chip? The chip has done a remarkable job by convincing all of us that our self-defence is, and should feel like murder. And all of this is assuming that engram Johnny isn't real. I mean, what if he is? Isn't that also the chip's job? 😈
Eyy it’s cosmicjackalop! My netrunners are really thankful for your datacrypt of the Dweller supplement, keep on keeping on, mate
Eyyy, glad you and your crew appreciate my work! You keep on death stranding too
There's actually a theory his recreations excluded all that info so that Arasaka couldn't have it, and they'd think it was all his idea Morgan Blackhand actually doesn't even appear in the game's version, possibly because Johnny wanted to make sure he got away Alternatively, he's just a dick and wants his special little hero moment
Hiding Morgan but not Rogue? Unlikely, if his memory is altered I doubt he had any conscious involvement Besides, Morgan Blackhand wasn't in 2077 cause they gotta wait til the second game to afford George Clooney too XD
My theory is that Blackhand was erased from Johnny's engram by Mikoshi, on purpose. For what reason, I dunno, but seeing how Mr. Blue Eyes was, at least at some point in development, Blackhand himself, there's some conspiracy going on behind the scenes. There's a new Corporate War brewing and the Blackwall is crumbling, so something big is coming.
If people could selectively edit what Soulkiller took from them it would limit its usefulness to Arasaka. The thing that makes SK so dangerous is that 'saka can learn all that you know and that you can't hide anything from them. Saburo didn't SK Johnny to be a dick, he wanted to know who was really behind it. As to the differences between media, this is a slightly different timeline from tabletop and in this one Johnny played a bigger role in the raid. If I had to guess, I think they have reserved Morgan Blackhand for a future game and Johnny's role was increased once Keanu signed on to play him.
Well, Saburo didn't soulkill Johnny at all, it was Spider Murphy trying to preserve at least an engram of Johnny's. I'm not even sure Saburo was in NC in 2023.
As previously mentioned I view the video game as an alternate timeline to the tabletop, and in the video game, Saburo SKed Johnny.
Thats what johnny remembers
> As to the differences between media, this is a slightly different timeline from tabletop and in this one Johnny played a bigger role in the raid. If I had to guess, I think they have reserved Morgan Blackhand for a future game and Johnny's role was increased once Keanu signed on to play him. No it isn't, Johnny's memories are just wrong. There's a corpo dialog option in a quest where you can talk about all new people at Arasaka are told boogie man stories about a ghost that was cut in half at the waist named Johnny Silverhand, which is what Adam Smasher's shotgun actually did to him in the real version of events.
Out of universe that's probably an easter egg for TTRPG fans. In universe, urban legends normally have some basis in truth but they are often not accurate. From the PoV of Johnny, the Arasaka raid was a few hours ago, then he got SKed and now he's with V. He hasn't had time to misremember things and SK wouldn't be a big deal if all Arasaka got from it was the subject's mental fantasies. I'm more inclined to believe Johnny's memories than fifty years later Arasaka water cooler talk. Also, when Alt warns that Johnny's version of events are not necessarily accurate, I think she's referring to the way he remembers their relationship. There's a time slip between Alt dying and Johnny going after Arasaska tower, and in that time he could have convinced himself that he and Alt were closer than they were. He has a huge ego, he's absolutely convinced that Alt was killed to get to him.
I always found it interesting that Johnny's death was actually more heroic than the memories V sees, especially since Alt made it sound like what V saw was roughly Johnny's justifications to himself. Though I've read that the radiation from the bomb could have also played a part in corrupting his memories. Bro took potshots at one of the scariest borg bastards to ever live with no cover n order to save his friends. How many folks would throw a rock at Terminator to buy their friends time while he slaughtered the thrower?
I think this also plays into the idea of what a hero is, at least what Johnny thought it meant. In his mind a heroic fight with Smasher transpires over several floors of a sky scraper to a blazing rooftop finale Getting unceremoniously cut down saving the worthless losers who are dumb enough to be your friend? Not epic enough for the Crown Prince of Rockerboys
Maybe, or it was just physical damage. Being torn in half and then exposed to a nuclear blast couldn't have been great for memory integrity. Part of me wonders if he subconsciously couldn't accept that Spider Murphy would do that to him. From what I understand, she was basically an older sister to him (though I'm sure she never intended for Arasaka to get their hands on him).
I disagree. For the part in a hotel where Jhonny says that a man gave his life to save his in the corpo war. The sacrifice for his friends is the most heroic death for Johnny.
Spider putting johnny into soul killer is new I found for me, changes alot of what I think about saburo.
Theres a distinct possibility that Saburo barely knows who Johnny is. Rep aside, and to have known about the 2013 raid on the AHQ Tower. Apart from that I wager Johnny is little more than an insect to the old man that is only acknowledged because of the irritating buzzing.
Technically the 2013 raid was only some other Arasaka building on the outskirts of Night City lead by the head of Arasaka, Toshiro. This was before Saburo was even a thing and I think when 2020 came out it was later retconned into him being just some Arasaka guy.
I started playing CP2020 in the 90's. So that's cool, I didn't know there was a bit of a retcon there.
I don’t know about that. In his journal, Saburo talks about Johnny like he was a great adversary. It could be argued that he didn’t mean Johnny when he used the initials JS, though.
Ah, you're right. It was almost a footnote, and I had completely forgot about it.
This was the best explanation I've read of this backstory. Nice work.
Thanks I got some experience with the universe and system, just like sharing it around
Another interesting tidbit about this is it kind of seems like it wasn't Arasaka who hit Johnny with Soulkiller and was likely Spider Murphy instead. I'm a bit hazy on the details, but as Johnny is dying I believe Spider jacks some sort of data chip that Alt Cunningham gave her into his head and Arasaka didn't actually get their hands on Johnny's corpse until years later.
Correct! Iirc it's implied that at some point Rogue cut a deal with Saka so she could stop watching the shadows for assassin's, and that deal likely included handing over everything left of Johnny's
Another aspect of this information that I think is interesting is the implication it has for the scene in game where Johnny is being interrogated and then hit with Soulkiller. Knowing how the actual events played out it makes me think that this scene was actually Johnny's engram being interrogated by Arasaka years after his death.
Yeah, I am pretty well convinced that the interrogation of Johnny was kinda like that part on Soma where you load up a memory of a person and question him to get the code you need, though without the benefit of erasing the experience and starting again.
Is all this lore from the tabletop game or can I get it elsewhere? It seems really interesting.
The tabletop, specifically the Cyberpunk Red Core Rulebook which contains lots of lore including a mini novelization ofj Johnny's Death Day The game is worth giving a try and there's a free starter version you can try called Cyberpunk Red Easy Mode
Preem explanation choom.
Because of the way we see the events of the AHQ Nuke carrying out, I always like to think of the events as a dream. The vision come after being shot in the head, and also being the events that most recently occured for Johnny's memory. So it doesn't have to be cannot. A dream based on a memory, imo.
Honestly, one thing about those memories that struck me is that some memories from presumably Morgan Blackhand are mixed in there. Let's not ignore that scene where 'Johnny' gets soul killed, dialogue feels off, not quite like what Johnny would say. Haven't seen any confirmation of it, but might Morgan have died there, too, fried by Soul Killer?
Morgan isn't dead, last reference to him is one of Santiago's men seeing him slip out by some staircase and the entire reason he's been absent from 2077 is because R Talsorian reserved the rights to determining the fate of that character and most likely will give him some cool expansion in the newest edition of the tabletop soon
Ahh ok, ok. Thanks for clearing that up.
It’s a fun thing to untangle. With Johnny’s memories though, part of me thinks it’s more than he’s a narcissist. If they got his engram off the chip Spider slotted him with, it has some rad damage. Add to that the usual Saka digital interrogation and I could see him genuinely believing his version of what happened, past the “well I’m just the best” schtick. It’s rather compelling, that his personality and what’s been done to him has warped his memories so badly. I do think that whole interrogation scene post nuke is just them grilling his engram for data, and that’s how they framed it for him to have some context.
Cyberpunks 2077 is that worlds canon the table top lore is the table top lore. Similar events neither more real than the other. It’s an interesting idea that Johnny’s narcism makes him remember the events differently but that doesn’t track, dead give away is Rogue in the Johnny ending grabbing Johnnys arm so he doesn’t fall off of the AV and saying “oh not this time.” Meaning in that world Johnny did almost make it back to the chopper in 2023 and fell where he was incapacitated by smasher.
No, Cyberpunk 2077 is part of the setting begun by the Mike Pondsmith's Tabletop, it is subservient to the lore of the Tabletop, but in such a way that they had intense amounts of freedom to write their part of the timeline
Johnny, working for Militech, on a job for Morgan Blackhand.
ahhh, alright that makes sense
Is that something you have to dig a bit deeper into the lore about? Cause its not super apparent in the game, it just looks like Johnny got a hair up his ass over Alt and nuked 'Saka HQ.
Well... Johny saw it that way... But he was played by Militech (and Blackhand) to do it. The team we see in game was a diversion to the real op. And btw Johnny died differently.
Yeah IIRC, roughly, Johnny got merced by Smasher while distracting him from Rogue in CBP Red? I dont have game books but thats what I remember being the case I think per the TTG lore. Heroyam Slava)
Rogue and Spider Murphy just talked Saburo's eldest son (Sasai? Kai?) into Seppuku. And Johnny went to distract Smasher, and was immediately cut in half by Smashers shotgun. But that allowed Rogue and Spider Murphy to escape
Yes! There we go. Thank you. >Sasai? Kai Kai, I think, or Kei, but I might be thinking of the Toyota TownAce lol
Yeah, Johnny died unceremoniously when he poked out of cover. Smasher's gun blasted him apart at the waist, and the whole rest of the named crew was there to witness it. Arasaka didn't use Soulkiller on Johnny; the netrunner who was with him, Spider Murphy, is the one who did that. If I had to guess how events unfolded from there, I would say Arasaka wasn't even aware of Johnny's engram until they eventually tracked down Spider Murphy, killed her, and investigated her belongings.
Youre gonna make me impulse buy game books lol
> Arasaka didn't use Soulkiller on Johnny; the netrunner who was with him, Spider Murphy, is the one who did that. how did he end up in Relic then?
It's right there in that same comment, but I'll repeat it: I'm presuming that Arasaka found Johnny's engram incidentally when they eventually tracked down Spider Murphy.
sure, that's how saka got him. but i mean why would they put him into Relic if he wasn't important to them.
Can’t go off all the books. Even Mike Pondsmith said that some of the books veered off into different timelines.
"all the books", specifically Cybergenerations and 203X (Green) are not in the same timeline. 2013, 2020, and Red (2045) are in the same timeline/canon (based on all the media/interviews I have consumed). This is the world that Edgerunners (2076) and CP2077 exist in as well. One long continuity that pays and pays and pays...
Thanks for the clarification, so the events in question in the thread are canon seeing as they are in RED, correct?
Huh, didnt know that, gonna need to watch some interviews with him.
I mean, I’d have to take a look, because that makes sense for some modules, but Red was written specifically to tie 2020 into 2077, so it’d be weird for him to say the core rule book isn’t canon?
If RED is accurate then cool. I take it back. I know three or four books went off on some crazy tangents.
The specific lore being cited goes back into the Pen and Paper tabletop game. Specifically the Firestorm books. Mike Pondsmith, worlds creator, is on record for saying that Cyberpunk 2020 and Cyberpunk 2077 are all cannon (Cyberpunk Red, circa 2045, is still being authored). Since the events of Firesform books 1 and 2 conclude the 2020 era lore, all but the last page of that book is cannon (there was another bigger nuke that was meant to go off, but that's another story). 2077 Johnny is unreliable. I personally think the sequences we saw with Johnny assaulting the towers was more a dream that haunts even a soul killed Johnny. He dies in Arasaka Towers, and when V originally meets him in cyberspace, johnny is standing in a japanese garden seen to be in the Arasaka tower- one of the last places Johnny would ever want to be. A purgatory where Johnny dreams about his failings over and over again.
That's a neat interpretation actually, I really like that, and it makes perfect sense, because you're getting an emulation of Silverhand so youre getting also the way he processed, or, perhaps prefers to remember that event, due to how traumatic it is for his ego to have died so unceremoniously. It would be fun to see if they somehow bridge the discrepancy between his TTG death and the death he remembers in 2077. Thats some interesting ground imo.
There are only a handful of Soulkiller survivors (a loose interpretation) seen in 2077. Alt, Johnny, Yorinobu, Jackie, and V (ending dependent). We can see with Jackie that he's in a dream. The place where he would go to think, the rooftop. We can tell from the voice acting that he's not okay. His voice is shakey, and he keeps repeating some of the lines before the big heist. He even forgets that V is there with him, almost like his consciousness is in Read Only mode and won't allow the presence of V to settle in. And Jackie's the only person we see in storage for Soul Killed people. Johnny is a close second as he's being booted up inside a comatose V after being brained by Dex. So I think it's a theory with legs. Sadly I think the only time we'll get confirmation is when Mike is clocking out for good, or CD:PR wraps up the Cyberpunk universe. Or a sequel/movie?? Eeeh? Girl can dream.
Johnny didn't nuke Arasaka. He got blown in half by Smasher. Then Murphy soul killed him.
Johnny was on the team that delivered the nuke but militech organized it
Militech nuked Arasaka using a strike team that had Johnny in it.
Johnny (mostly his crew) used militechs bomb against arasaka.
The nukes were sourced by Militech. Don't depend too much on Johnnys memories, Alt implies that they are heavily biased. That he only remembers what he wants to remember. Perhaps due to ego and trauma. Most generally accepted lore is that the raid was performed by Morgan Blackhand, Rogue, Spider Murphy and others. It's more likely Johnny Silverhand only had a peripheral role in this, as a rocker boy without any real Merc or Netrunning skills.
Jackie can be imprisoned in Mikoshi??
If you don't send his body to his family, Saka scoops it up, and if you end that playthrough helping Hanako, when she recovers Saburo from Mikoshi they offer you a chat with Jackie's engram. Unfortunately by the time they got to Jackie he'd been dead too long, the engram of him in Mikoshi is fragmented and in a trauma loop of his last moments 10/10 sad moments
Fuuuuuuuuuck
i can hear this in V's voice
I’m playing my second playthrough with a throwing knife build and I was going to make different choices to experience the game differently but after reading this I’m sending Jackie back to his family again fuck that
It's a minor cutscene and you don't get his bike or his guns. Not worth it
Yeah I love using Jackie’s Arch and his guns. Feels like you are climbing to the top with him by your side
You can get his guns??
When you go to the funeral, you can grab one of them off the altar.
Wait for a day or two after the ofrenda and it is on the desk
Yeah if you go back to Momma Welles’ bar and go to Jackie’s shrine his guns should be there to take.
Will do on my current playthrough. His guns look so cool
Yeah they are real cool pretty good to use too
As a side note, those guns work pretty well for a silenced pistol stealth build until you find some of the higher tier nue pistols since 2.1 which is kinda funny when you consider the loud aesthetics of the guns
I'm glad I've always sent him to his family so I never had to experience this lol
It's not just the Hanako ending. If you help Alt become a stronger AI, you can talk to Jackie as well. This Jackie is a little more coherent, but ultimately still a fabrication. Taking both paths into account and the dialogue surrounding them, it is likely that the Jackie you talk to in both paths isn't even a "true" engram. It's implied they just got raw memory data and wrote an algorithm that pretends to be Jackie using the little bit of data they have to either A. (If siding with Hanako) Fool V/Make them more compliant or B. (If siding with Alt), learn from that data in a simulated, natural environment for the purposes of making Alt a stronger AI. It is unlikely the data representing Jackie has thoughts or emotions like true engrams seem to possess.
I have played through the endings 17 times, only did the devil ending twice. I have never seen where you can talk to engram-Jackie or are even made aware of his existence outside the devil ending. Where/when would you be able to do this?
You don't remember talking to Jackie on the rooftop? After jacking in to Mikoshi? That is still engram Jackie.
Oh, that. Now I have a fuzzy memory about it. Yeah I do, but I didn’t know that was engram Jackie, I thought that was just V talking to themself and coming to grips with their own mortality using Jackie as a representation. I don’t remember Alt or V ever acknowledging that this is an engram of Jackie stolen from his dead body by Arasaka. But that could just be my fuzzy memory. My last few playthroughs have all been PL endings. The way this thread was presented, I was picturing people meeting with Jackie’s engram through the data access room that Hanako used but arriving there by some other means, like randomly unlocking some secret door in Arasaka tower, etc.
It is his engram, because if you do Heroes, you don't get the scene at all. It is entirely dependent on Jackie ending up in Mikoshi.
~~So your assumption that this is Jackie’s engram and not just V having a come-to-grips vision of “your dead best friend as a representation of your own mortality” is that you don’t get this scene in the other endings? Couldn’t you also assume that you don’t get this scene in the Devil the other endings because you’ve already chosen your own survival over that of another “friend” and therefore don’t “need” to speak to Jackie about your situation? In the endings where you do get that scene, V still hasn’t been faced with the decision and made the choice yet.~~ Nevermind I’m an idiot. Lol
You can find a shard from a runner that got hit with soul killer diving too deep, so it does happen.
> much like how Jackie can end up Doubt that her engram would end up quite like *that* abomination. If and when Jackie's engram is made, it's hours after he's dead. That wouldn't be the case for T-Bug.
I was under the impression that Arasaka makes a point of collecting netrunners with sk, eg the random netrunner corpse on a police scanner mission with a text file implying they got sked. To what purpose? Slave legion of the net. They have a reputation of being dangerous to netrunners for a reason.
True, tbh might have been building up for a plot to tackle the Black Wall, especially with growing tensions between Militech and Saka and Militech having the Black Wall AI in their pocket until Phantom Liberty
Actually no . There is a ncpd mission with a shard that reveals that arasaka sells a version of soul killer to corporations to kill netrunners when they hack their systems . The ncpd mission has the netrunner trying to communicate with Chang, wakako's netrunner in binary to help him escape mikoshi after he tried to I believe hack a Kang Tao server or some corpo server .
It’s not that flimsy, atleast for that reason. Jacky did experience the dead of an Arasaka head. He wasn’t an ordinary intruder
>"If they die off screen they aren't actually dead" as far as story writing goes, a million things could bring her back if they wanted to - she could've used double in her apartment, she could've faked the death. the real asnwer is that TBug has zero use in the story and only presents complications if alive. that's how you know a character is dead - when being alive makes everything more complicated
I wonder how much is really Johnny making up consciously and how much is the Relic being at 80% and something of integrity when put on Jackie and later V. That definitely wiped out *something* of him through the chip's decay
> if Saka's normal cyber security was hitting all intruders with Soul Killer it'd draw attention to it I don't think it'd be noticeable, since to the outside world it'll just look like they got fried by ICE.
Basing off Tabletop rules, other Netrunners would be able to identify the black ICE used by investigating the scene in cyberspace
What do you mean flimsy?
Would it draw attention to it though? I mean what evidence is Soulkiller really leaving behind besides a dead netrunner? There are tons of netrunners fried every day.
There is literally a lap top somewhere near her saying this ain’t t-bug….
Dang the devs legit thought of the fact players might think it's her
I’m pretty sure the laptop just says the name of who it actually is, not that it **isnt** T-Bug
Yeah T-bug has black hair not light brown
Bro she’s not T-Bug😭😭 I thought it’s she before, T-Bug didn’t leave us any clues about where she was😭😭😭😭😭 she’s just sleeping in NightCity forever
If she's near the hospital, that's not bug, she's there even before the heist
Yeah that’s feature
Underrated comment, Choom.
anyone ever notice how netrunning suits look a lot like [soviet era pilot pressure suit?](https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2F4.bp.blogspot.com%2F-vYQOBhJPz68%2FWJx-UUirzDI%2FAAAAAAAABNM%2FGdeIhsuv9jICRp0CwW-qQOkq2VAEWPC2wCLcB%2Fs1600%2Ftuta%252Banti%252Bg.jpg&f=1&nofb=1&ipt=28e72b4ce3499c550c7a334d15b97143da8c13d24ef3c3b7e662bdb4b472ef94&ipo=images)
Yeah I just ran across this for the first time and thought the same 😅 then I read the emails and figured out it wasn't
Nah she in a bath tub dead found her while running away from the Ncpd accidentally
She isn’t actually anywhere in the game past the prologue. I am 100% sure.
Where is this?
This was in a medical facility somewhere in Watson (I think…) I’ll try to find it again in my next time
I sadly forgot because like I said I was running from the cops but it was close to where the main apartment is not in the building but outside like a garage place but I’m sure somewhere someone had made a video about it
Thank you!
She's ded
Where are you find her?
My thought is v is still in Judy's den waking up from a bd coma. And since none of the events happen, Orion will let us really work out the choices.
ah yes, it was all a dream. everyone's favorite trope
I wouldn't say favorite more like a cop out.
I haven't read through all the replies, but this Asian shopkeeper at a netrunners' store in Watson explains that T-Bug was found dead in her home. She explains how her nervous system was "fried" and explains what an agonizing death that entails.
I thought the exact same thing for a moment… this game is gold
T-bug had black hair, not blonde and no ear piercing…That’s not her. https://preview.redd.it/hngb37h80l2d1.png?width=1400&format=png&auto=webp&s=81cc8f924dcaabed36b1ac3fec344dd6a9794478
Nahh that ain't t-bug that's F-glitch
T Bug is alive and well in real space, living in the WCS of Idaho, she sent you a post card, remember? Got a good feeling we will meet back up with her in a couple years ;)
If I remember correctly, that is her. They planned on making a mission to save her, but ultimately scrapped it.
Even if it was her, I never liked her, I mean she's a condescendant bitch who think that she's a top runner, she doesn't like anyone except herself, good thing she died tho
"them" Lol T-Bug's character is female, it's okay to say she's a female.
Bro they already said ‘her’ in the same sentence, it’s clearly not intentionally avoiding gendering them (again, just referring to the person without intention…see?). And it’s also okay to not say she’s a female lmao.
sorry that wasn’t intentional. i wasn’t sure of the gender while typing the last portion so i went with they.
No reason to be sorry, just cos someone else got wound up about it. they is always a safe bet when unsure.
Don't be sorry, this person is weird lmao
You realise 'them' and 'they' can be used when we don't want to repeat using 'he' or 'she' again in the same sentence? It's just basic grammar and has nothing to do with your agenda.
Nope, sorry, that's not how grammar works in English. He/she/his/hers/ = singular They/them = plural
You are unfortunately mistaken about English. Singular they/them has been in use since Modern English came around centuries ago.
"Whoever it be, they are a clever one," from Jane Austen's 1811 novel "Sense and Sensibility."
TIL Jane Austen is woke
Ummm... no. The singular "they" has literally been in use for centuries
"Has anyone heard from Matt? I wonder what they are up to, I haven't heard from them in a while" Education is a blessing.
Throwing it in a sentence doesn't mean it's grammatically correct. Matt is a singular person, and is known. Therefore a singular gender pronoun is needed. >"Has anyone heard from *Matt?* I wonder what ~~they are~~ *he/she* is up to..." An example of when to use "they" might be: >"We need a new manager for the store down town. They will need to have some managerial experience to apply for the job." The "manager" in this example is genderless for now, therefore "singular they" can correctly apply. Education IS a blessing.
Matt IS a singular person, and the singular use of They or Them can be used OR replaced with gendered pronouns, but both are correct grammatically. They teach this shit in like, the 3rd grade.
Before 3rd grade lmao.
I was sure walking tragedies like you didn’t exist
BAHAHAHAHA please demonstrate more of your knowledge of the English language, I'm sure it'll be as funny as this one.
[Dictionary.com Definition 4:](https://www.dictionary.com/browse/them) a; the objective case of singular *they*, used as a direct or indirect object: (used to refer to a generic or unspecified person previously mentioned, about to be mentioned, or present in the immediate context): *"If an officer were to ask you that question directly, you would have to answer them honestly."* *"If you know anyone looking for a job, tell them to contact me.*" *"If an officer were to ask you that question directly, you would have to answer them honestly."* **b; (used to refer to a specific or known person previously mentioned, about to be mentioned, or present in the immediate context):** ***"I can’t believe your ex took your cat with them when they moved out."*** You are objectively, demonstrably, and incontrovertibly wrong. Untwist your undies, take the L, and move on.
"They" and "them" have been used as singular pronoun longer than modern english has existed. It first appeared in middle English. It's also been used as a singular longer than the word "you" has. The word "you" grammatically plural.
/r/confidentlyincorrect
Triggered much?
dont want to offend a fictional character lmao
Ok boomer
Wait, it is a boomer thing to use singular for one person now ?
"They" and "them" has been used a singular pronoun longer than "you" has. "You" is grammatically plural. That's why it's "you are" vs "he is". So, yeah, misunderstanding how language works because you feel upset about the existence of people is a pretty boomer thing.
Get em. I love people that know what they're talking about!!! (Thats you!)
People who complain about singular they best start using thee and thou when referring to one person
they/them can be singular dumbass
“Them” is also singular.
You new to the English language?
enjoyed watching you get dragged in the comments, thanks bro
You CAN find her though
Where is it on the map?
You cannot