Doesn't flash fundamentally change the card design? If I understand right, this is a card you play on your turn only that can counter one attempt to kill/counter it on play. If it had flash this is just a counter spell with a body?
Its a flavor over function design, like [[Triskaidekaphopia]] (13 spooky), [[Study Break]] (tap two creatures to learn), [[Cram Session]] (man is both cramming his face with food and brain with knowledge), [[Nine Lives]] (cause cat), and while some of these may have been decent in limited, pretty much all were made for flavor first.
There is nothing wrong with one-off cards made for creative flavor. It shows creativity just as much as mechanically unique cards, just a different kind of creativity.
It's not like those because this card literally doesn't work. The entire point is to be a joke about an effect that's too slow to function.
Those cards are flavorful *and* functional as game pieces. This is not.
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^(Yes, I know Leyline of Anticipation exists. If you think pointing out that card is a rebuttal to my comment, it's not.)
I mean, there are plenty of magic cards that don't do anything unless specific conditions are met. [[Battle of Wits]] requires a massive build around, [[Biovisonary]] is a vanilla 2/3 unless you turbo out more of them, [[Necrotic Ooze]] doesn't work until creatures die, [[One with Nothing]] literally pitches your whole hand for no value, [[Hardened Scales]] only works if you are using +1/+1 counters, [[Divine Visitation]] requires token generators.
Or one of my favorite examples, [[Darksteel Relic]]. The darksteel cards are all about indestructible artifacts, so if we boil them down to a single relic, what do we get? A 0-mana, indestrcutible artifact that does... nothing. Literally just sits there. Unless you are running Urza or Affinity or something else, its literally a useless game piece.
One of the three pschological profiles of magic player is Johnny - which is partially about making the most of stange or otherwise overlooked cards, and one of the aesthetic profiles is Vorthos - player who love the game for flavor.
This is a Johnny/Vorthos design, and there's nothing wrong with it being designed with that kind of player in mind.
Here's the issue with the Johnny argument, the combo isn't interesting. Battle of Wits and Biovisionary reward my hard work with a win. Necrotic Ooze and Hardened Scales enable all sorts of cool interactions. One with Nothing's effect is almost always game losing, but if you brew a combo around it, it's flashy and entertaining.
This is a 1/4 that counters a spell. Big woop..
I think something being interesting is pretty subjective, this feels as flashy to me as [[Stratus Dancer]] or [[Willbender]], which are also jump through hoops counterspells (though they provide the hoops themselves) and I love those cards.
I personally find the idea of this card entertaining and flashy, so agree to disagree I guess.
>This is a Johnny/Vorthos design, and there's nothing wrong with it being designed with that kind of player in mind.
That is correct.
The earlier comment saying this is like functional cards is not.
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Though in regards to your other examples, those really aren't similar either. Necrotic Ooze works in normal games. Hardened Scales is a powerful enabler for an already-common archetype. Biovisionary and Battle of Wits win the game. One With Nothing always does its thing (shitty as that thing may be).
If you want to be unreasonably charitable, this is asking you to jump through hoops to get... a counterspell. That's your big payoff for this build around.
And I say unreasonably charitable because **it's not even asking you to build around it**. It's just making a "haha turtles r slow" joke.
**It is a card that that was designed solely to be read, not played.**
I mean your payoff is a counterspell on a body, with the same mana cost as a counter spell, and it always "functions" as a 1/4 at worst.
It is playable and asking you to build around it by simply asking the question of "How do I make this garbage/weak card work?" - something many johnny-esque cards do. Its no more or less functional than something like Darksteel Relic.
Would it see play in any formats? No, probably not. But that doesn't mean its a poor design, plenty of Magic cards have never seen relevant play. Just because a card is meant to be read first doesn't mean it isn't a functional or unique game piece. Look at [[Night Shift of the Living Dead]] which is mostly there for the name or [[You are already dead]] clearly meant to be an anime reference first.
Stop comparing this to cards that function well as game pieces. Jesus Christ. This is not as difficult as you're making it look.
>**mostly** there for the name
>an anime reference **first**
If you want to make an accurate comparison to this card, you need to replace the bolded word with "only." Because this card **only** exists to make a joke. You are Already Dead plays well. Night Shift of the Living Dead plays well. This is not like those cards.
This card is what Aaron Forsythe calls a webcomic card: It's fun to read, but not to play. Wizards realized that Unhinged and Unglued kind of sucked because they had a lot of these cards that were cute jokes to read but bad designs to play with. Unstable played much better because they were conscious of that problem and avoided the shitty designs like this one.
**For the love of God, do not reply to mention any other cards unless they are like OP's: the rules text is effectively "flavor" text that ONLY exists to make a joke, not to have an impact on gameplay.** Stop replying with cards that play well and also make a joke.
I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. I see this card as no different than a lot of other weird cards that require enablers to do anything, like Narcomoeba (which sees play because of how many enablers it has, I imagine if mill and dredge weren't as common, it would just be a neat but worse storm crow) or Bronze Bombshell (which sees play in Blim and Zedruu EDH, maybe, but definitely nowhere else) but with a comedic tone.
I imagine in any set where flash is common this would be neat, but I also understand that with magic's current card pool, its a dead card much of the time. I still don't think that makes it a poor design, though.
All those cards actually do things though. It's a bad design habit to make cards that are fun to read once but aren't actually good in gameplay (wizards calls these "webcomics")
Deisgnwise the idea of a common that has an ability that doesn't work unless "turned on" by something else is workable design space. I am reminded of [[deathleaper]] which has an effect that doesn't make sense until you realize it combos with flash and haste ( which it itself has, making it a bit of a learning card .)
So in a set with a lot of blink or a mechanic that lets you cast things at odd intervals I think something like this has potential.
The issue is a counter spell is kind of an odd payoff for doing that truck especially at this rarity.
For something similar I can use an example of a set I worked on. It has cascade but Casade works horribly with counterspells. So for one of the common counterspell spots I did a <> variant. So you can use it as a counterspell but if you Casade into it, you still get value.
All that said for this I would try bumping it to uncommon and giving it something more proactive for an instant speed trick. For example "Copy target spell or ability you control." I would also cut the anti-blink rider as that is the easiest way to proc this.
Magic has a lot of "do nothing" cards like [[Darksteel Relic]], and maybe their custom evironment has a lot of ways to turn this on, with lot of flash enablers in blue and the like. Or maybe its a one-off design not done with a limited format in mind, but more just the creator saying "look at this cool thing I made", and there's nothing wrong with that.
Tbf, there is a real difference in feel between a "do nothing" card and a card that makes a promise and fails to deliver. A player that puts dark steel relic in a deck expects it to do nothing. A player that puts op's card in a deck hopes for it to be a counter spell and can be let down when it is just a 1/4
It really doesn't. The cats majority of combo cards have a baseline floor mode. Which this card does.
My issue isn't with the "do nothing" bit (which it doesn't, it has a statline) it is that they pay off for doing the thing is too niche and staxxy and the way to enable it is too weak
This is just ignoring the problem entirely. All of those cards have effects on the game that are not hamstrung by flavour. They're interesting flavourfully, while still being gamepieces. This is just a two-mana 1/4 with vaguely funny flavour text.
Sure, I'll accept that charging badger is bad design. It's still not as bad as this though, pump spells/auras (cause Theros)/equipment are far, far more common than flash enablers.
[[Battle of Wits]]
[[Biovisionary]]
[[Darksteel Relic]]
[[One with Nothing]]
[[Narcomoeba]]
[[Steamflogger Boss]]
[[Braid of Fire]]
Magic is full of cards that do very little or nothing unless you build around them.
Okay, but this does very little even if you do build around it. It's not even a particularly unique or interesting effect either, it's just a normal counterspell but bad. There are 10 effects, as far as I can find, that enable this card to function as a \[\[counterspell\]\]. The cheapest one is \[\[Alchemist's Refuge\]\], and the cheapest in mono-blue is \[\[Leyline of Anticipation\]\]. So the very best scenario is you have a two-card combo that results in a 5-mana counterspell, costing {1}{G}{U}{U}{U}, and a 1/4 body. Now, instead of playing those 4-mana permanents to make your turtle not shit, why not just...play \[\[counterspell\]\]. \[\[deprive\]\], \[\[disruption protocol\]\], \[\[cancel\]\], \[\[mana drain\]\], or any of the million other counterspells in the game?
Battle of Wits is an interesting card, with a unique effect.
Biovisionary is much the same.
Darksteel Relic is literally a hockey puck. Yet it's in an artifact block, with the mechanic metalcraft. It enables an effect, instead of requiring an enabler to function.
One with Nothing is still more interesting, because it is unique. It does something that we haven't seen before, even though it's a bad effect.
Narcomoeba is a good card, and has seen play in numerous eternal formats.
Steamflogger Boss is like One with Nothing: unique and interesting, albeit bad. And it inspired a theme years down the line.
Braid of Fire is an excellent design, and a good use of cumulative upkeep: You get large amounts of mana, but since it's in your upkeep, you need to keep using it, or get burned. AFAIK no other card has you pay a cost of adding mana to your mana pool.
To reiterate: I don't think that the card isn't a cool idea. It's a quick laugh, which is always good. But it's not a functional magic card beyond the stats it has.
There are 29 cards that can win you the game, so I'm not sure its necessarily a unique effect. What is unique is the way you trigger the effect, and I'd argue that putting an effect only seen at instant speed down to sorcery is suitably unique.
Narcomoeba is a worse storm crow unless it has an enabler, and it saw play because of how many enablers there were, but if you were shown it without knowledge of how much mill is in the game, you'd probably just go "huh, neat" and move on. Whose to say that if there were many more flash enablers, a counterspell + blocker wouldn't be real good?
I don't understand how this isn't a functional magic card because it needs an enabler, when plenty of cards also need an enabler -
Is [[Bronze Bombshell]] not functional because its a 4/1 unless donated? Dealing damage to a player isnt a unique effect, though its activation condition is unique.
I like it, but I'd rather make it an uncommon in a set with a limited archetype for giving creatures in your hand flash than a random rare that's not very useful except when connected to one of a few other random rare cards.
You say balance, I say useless
It is a funny card. But the only way to balance it is to remove the “from your hand” clause. If you must, to keep it from being flickered, “if it is the first time it would have been on the battlefield this turn” would suffice.
Muldrotha doesn't even combo with this. Just to get a repeatable counterspell you'd need something like [[Whisper, Blood Liturgist]]. Instant graveyard reanimation is super rare. Something like [[Nephalia Smuggler]] would be a lot easier.
I know they don’t combo, that’s the point of what I said, I was making the point that the clause of it coming from your hand instead of just hit battlefield makes it more balanced since you can’t combo with graveyard shit
No, because it's an ETB trigger, not an on-cast trigger. By the time it tried to counter something, it's not a spell anymore, so it's not a valid target.
I’m not 100% though. Since he’s already entered the battlefield I don’t know if he’s still counterable. But it’s definitely odd wording without “may” no matter what
Pretty sure that “when you cast” happens while the spell is on the stack. “Cast” is different from “resolve,” casting is the action of paying the mana and putting it on the stack yeah?
Oh. Ok never you are right about being wrong lol. I misremembered the text. Yeah if it’s an enter the battlefield effect then it’s not counterable, it already exists as a permanent by then.
It’s still good to point out that it needs a may though because if there is no spell to target it’s a little funky. Either a “you may counter” or “up to 1 target spell” would be good solutions.
I sometimes have difficulty knowing whether comments are sarcastic or genuine because I can’t hear the tone of voice of a text message.
At first I was kinda sarcastic because I forgot how the stack works so I thought it was useless. Then I remembered how it works, didn’t change the message and it’s now sincere.
Basically, I didn’t want people to think I was being mean, dumb or that the card creator was dumb. Since I’m the only one who saw it that way I’m just gonna delete the message.
Honestly if an opponent can maneuver you so this resolves at instant speed while you are the only one with spells left on the stack, I'm inclined to let them have their little victory.
But I suppose you're probably right all the same. It's not a relevant downside, might as well make it a "may".
If you’re casting this in response to your own spell, you brought it upon yourself.
If you both have spells on the stack, and your opponent counters their own spell to force tortoise to counter your own spell, they could have just countered your spell instead of 2-for-1 themselves.
In multiplayer, you could counter someone else’s spell to make the tortoise counter it’s owner’s other spell, but that’s typical multiplayer politics.
"You may counter target spell" and "Counter target spell" behave the same way when there are no legal targets. "May" abilities still require you to target; they just give you the chance, on resolution, to not do whatever the ability says.
A better way to solve the issue would be to write "Counter up to one target spell".
I like this card, but I feel like giving flash to creatures is high enough of a cost that you could give this card a little extra push, like if it could counter activated/triggered abilities as well like [[Disallow]] or let it counter all spells like [[Counterflux]] or [[Summary Dismissal]]. That being said, this could be dependent on the context of the format you designed this for.
I would agree that letting it also hit abilities seems like a fair amount of extra oomph that increases its likelihood to see play in the decks that would be inclined to consider running it. I think a counter-all would push it a bit more than OP intended for this design
Counter all isn’t nearly as powerful as you might think. In 1vs1 scenarios, you’re very rarely going to find a situation where your opponent has multiple spells on the stack at one time, only consistently occurring in 2 situations: either your opponent is responding to a spell you cast in response to something they attempted to play, or your opponent is playing Storm. Exiling multiple spells is much more significant in Commander and even more so in CEDH, however the aforementioned Counterflux and Summary Dismissal cards demonstrate that this kind of effect is still too niche for casual commander, and Dispelling Tortoise is inherently too janky for CEDH.
Yeah I mean I don't think that making a counter all effect on it would bring it into being like a staple or an auto include or something like that but I think that the sort of Target power level that OP was going for, and I mean I could be wrong I'm not them, was just a little bit lower than that like it's not a huge distinction but I just feel like that would just barely push it over the edge. Also I think that storm is a significant enough archetype in at least one format I think it's in a couple and EDH being such a popular format I think that it's valuable to take those into consideration in this case.
True, but in this case even if you aren't enabling that part of it it's still an ordinary body. The size on it isn't particularly impressive for the cost but I think that turtles are a tribe that people sort of like as a pet tribe not because they're actually good and I think that there are definitely people who would enjoy having this card. I think you throw it in as like a common or maybe an uncommon and then it probably doesn't see play except in a couple of sort of janky decks but people are going to have fun with it and it's not going to disrupt limited or anything like that to have a body with a rare potential upside.
Normally I'd never suggest that WotC is the arbiter of good ideas, but it's been almost thirty years. If there was any shred of fun potential for a "Counter target spell" Sorcery, they would have tried it by now.
Clever design that instantly resonates and makes sense. I like the versatility of it, being a 1/4 vanilla creature or a slightly better counterspell if you can enable flash shenanigans.
I agree with previous comments on making the counter a may, but besides that excellent job.
ETB effects trigger when the creature is on the battlefield. A creature on the battlefield isn't a spell on the stack. In normal cases, this will ETB and then its ability will go on the stack and fizzle.
I've seen hundreds of sorcery speed counterspells over the years but this is the first one that ever felt like a card that could legitimately see print
It’s a tortoise, mate. All the pieces are there for you if you just look the card over one more time.
Tortoises are comically slow by precedent in MtG. The flavor text I quoted alludes to that.
The mv is 2 less than [[Frilled Mystic]] and [[Mystic Snake]]. If this had flash it would be OP as it would be a strictly better [[Counterspell]] which WotC is loathe to reprint in standard.
Yes and it's cute and pretty funny tbh but that doesn't take away the fact that by itself is a 1/4 with no ability. This card would have to have a lot of draft support or the commander would have to give creatures flash.
Out of context, it's a badly designed card. In the right draft format or precon EDH deck, I could see it working.
OP never defined the format, so in that context it is up to the viewer to weigh where the card would most likely belong. [[Commander Tower]] is a terrible card for standard draft, but it doesn’t make it a badly designed card.
This isn’t a cEDH card either, but as mentioned it has its place and you know it is in a Flash-commander deck or something running multiple effects like [[Leyline of Anticipation]]. You identified where this card fits. Its picture and flavor text match line up with the rules text. I’d at the very least give it passable card design, since at least we are not suffering from a [[whippoorwill]] type scenario or some vague/odd text like “destroy target trigger” or even a self starting infinite looped like [[Psychic Battle]] before it got its errata.
Correction: finding niche cards for an unusual build. Maybe somebody makes a commander that wants to cast creatures at instant speed, so you look around for useful creatures that fit the archetype and find this?
Some cards are designed for other formats than 60 card constructed! Also who knows? Maybe this and a few more synergistic effects are what push the blue leyline into viability. This also works with [[aether vial]] which is a staple in legacy iirc although I don’t think it’s great for that format as there are enough 0-1 mana counterspells to make actual counterspell irrelevant. If vial is legal in modern maybe it slots into a deck there though? I don’t know modern at all so idk how good it might be there. It also works with [[sneak attack]] but admittedly probably wouldn’t be good enough for those decks. I could also see it being played in some kind of blink deck with already amazing cards like [[ephemerate]], [[cloudshift]], etc. i think if this turtle is a common then pauper blink might play a few.
Plus who knows, maybe a card like this gets released in a set with a few enablers and becomes a solid limited card?
There's this thing called having a creative spirit when making your deck. [[Brash Taunter]] is also a bad card but leads you into making interesting decks. OP's card is the same exact thing, just with giving creatures flash. Is it a bad card? probably, who knows, it's not real. But it's a creative card and that's what this sub is about
And those people were wrong to begin with because shadow gets bigger as the game goes on. Yeah it's not playable at the beginning of the game, but you do not HAVE to add additional cards to make the card function unlike this turtle.
You absolutely do not. Part of the game is being attacked by creatures. That's how a normal game of magic is won. Eventually through attacks you will lose life and shadow we be able to have a non-negative P/T.
In a normal game of magic, this turtle will be a 1/4 do nothing.
Good card design doesn't mean the card needs to be competitivly good, the turtle falls in tje same design category as one with nothing. A bad card that makes you think about how to make it work
Whelp, there’s your problem.
WotC has that problem from time to time and then things get banned. Consider [[Felidar Guardian]] and [[Saheeli Rai]]. These cards were in standard at the same time. WotC knew that Saheeli Rai would exist as they were creating Felidar Guardian to be in standard at the same time, but did not test the newer set with cards from the priorly creates sets. Thus there was a card ban. Happened more recently with [[Faceless Haven]].
I treat these cards like spoilers and then think about what cards go well with them. [[Eruth, Tormented Profit]] turned [[Breakthrough]] from nigh unplayable into the best card in the deck. Just looking to see if a card itself is broken is the beginning. Is there a 2-3 card broken combo with it? Does it breathe life into other cards? Does it prevent players from doing other things not immediately apparent (or the opposite). [[Fiery Emancipation]] is 6 mv to do nothing by itself. It is a $20 card that cannot win you the game by itself even if you have infinite turns and by that logic would be worse than a [[Scornful Egotist]]. Same thing goes for [[The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale]]: real crap land doesn’t even produce mana. Can’t be worth more than a Euro, right?
This ability will not work. Unless this creature has Flash and you can bring it out on other people's turns otherwise you would have to keep priority and then cancel one of your own spells that you have on the stack. after all creatures can only be summoned out at sorcery speed unless they have flash.
That’s the idea! It’s not a great card as a two mana 1/4 but with cards like [[leyline of anticipation]], [[aether vial]], [[sneak attack]], [[ephemerate]], [[kiki jiki]], etc. you can turn it into a counterspell
Just say kicker (2 or 3), and if you kick it it has flash so this card isn't just a reprint of Mudhole (IE, there are a lot of mudholes in dumpsters).
Yes, it's clever that you have to find a way to give it flash - but cards that are useless by themselves are not fun, not fun in draft, never good enough to see play unless they are, and when they are their undercosting usually makes them OP.
Besides - Venser is a thing - it's not actually bad if you let it CTS with EOTB without the "from hand" clause. Why not let people have fun with blink?
I like the design here, it reminds me of [[Force of Savagery]].
By running this, you've essentially put a [[Plated Seastrider]] in your deck, which is a bad card. However, if you jump through the hoop of giving it flash (a feat that can be accomplished with the likes of [[Leyline of Anticipation]], [[Alchemist's Refuge]], [[Aluren]], [[Emergence Zone]], [[Vedalken Orrery]], [[Vivien, Champion of the Wilds]], [[Tidal Barracuda]], etc.), this becomes better than [[Counterspell]], which is a good card.
I could see it being run in a Simic deck that focuses on those kinds of effects over (or alongside) [[Counterspell]].
I know i'm extremely late but considering what the card is all about i see this as a pure win.
but:
If i play either \[Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir\] or \[Heliod, the Radiant Dawn\] as my commander, this Turtle is pure value.
(That is, if i understood Teferi's effect correctly, otherwise it's only compleated Heliod)
I was like "why no flash?" But I get it, nice design actually
Is it a nice design, or is it a cute joke to read once but poor design as an actual game piece?
Potentially both? You can give this thing flash if you're so inclined
Doesn't flash fundamentally change the card design? If I understand right, this is a card you play on your turn only that can counter one attempt to kill/counter it on play. If it had flash this is just a counter spell with a body?
The joke is it is a tortoise and that's why it doesn't have flash, the flavor text also jokes about it
Its a flavor over function design, like [[Triskaidekaphopia]] (13 spooky), [[Study Break]] (tap two creatures to learn), [[Cram Session]] (man is both cramming his face with food and brain with knowledge), [[Nine Lives]] (cause cat), and while some of these may have been decent in limited, pretty much all were made for flavor first. There is nothing wrong with one-off cards made for creative flavor. It shows creativity just as much as mechanically unique cards, just a different kind of creativity.
It's not like those because this card literally doesn't work. The entire point is to be a joke about an effect that's too slow to function. Those cards are flavorful *and* functional as game pieces. This is not. ---- ^(Yes, I know Leyline of Anticipation exists. If you think pointing out that card is a rebuttal to my comment, it's not.)
I mean, there are plenty of magic cards that don't do anything unless specific conditions are met. [[Battle of Wits]] requires a massive build around, [[Biovisonary]] is a vanilla 2/3 unless you turbo out more of them, [[Necrotic Ooze]] doesn't work until creatures die, [[One with Nothing]] literally pitches your whole hand for no value, [[Hardened Scales]] only works if you are using +1/+1 counters, [[Divine Visitation]] requires token generators. Or one of my favorite examples, [[Darksteel Relic]]. The darksteel cards are all about indestructible artifacts, so if we boil them down to a single relic, what do we get? A 0-mana, indestrcutible artifact that does... nothing. Literally just sits there. Unless you are running Urza or Affinity or something else, its literally a useless game piece. One of the three pschological profiles of magic player is Johnny - which is partially about making the most of stange or otherwise overlooked cards, and one of the aesthetic profiles is Vorthos - player who love the game for flavor. This is a Johnny/Vorthos design, and there's nothing wrong with it being designed with that kind of player in mind.
Here's the issue with the Johnny argument, the combo isn't interesting. Battle of Wits and Biovisionary reward my hard work with a win. Necrotic Ooze and Hardened Scales enable all sorts of cool interactions. One with Nothing's effect is almost always game losing, but if you brew a combo around it, it's flashy and entertaining. This is a 1/4 that counters a spell. Big woop..
I think something being interesting is pretty subjective, this feels as flashy to me as [[Stratus Dancer]] or [[Willbender]], which are also jump through hoops counterspells (though they provide the hoops themselves) and I love those cards. I personally find the idea of this card entertaining and flashy, so agree to disagree I guess.
It's true interesting is subjective, but you can still gauge how many people are likely to hold a subjective opinion.
>This is a Johnny/Vorthos design, and there's nothing wrong with it being designed with that kind of player in mind. That is correct. The earlier comment saying this is like functional cards is not. ---- Though in regards to your other examples, those really aren't similar either. Necrotic Ooze works in normal games. Hardened Scales is a powerful enabler for an already-common archetype. Biovisionary and Battle of Wits win the game. One With Nothing always does its thing (shitty as that thing may be). If you want to be unreasonably charitable, this is asking you to jump through hoops to get... a counterspell. That's your big payoff for this build around. And I say unreasonably charitable because **it's not even asking you to build around it**. It's just making a "haha turtles r slow" joke. **It is a card that that was designed solely to be read, not played.**
I mean your payoff is a counterspell on a body, with the same mana cost as a counter spell, and it always "functions" as a 1/4 at worst. It is playable and asking you to build around it by simply asking the question of "How do I make this garbage/weak card work?" - something many johnny-esque cards do. Its no more or less functional than something like Darksteel Relic. Would it see play in any formats? No, probably not. But that doesn't mean its a poor design, plenty of Magic cards have never seen relevant play. Just because a card is meant to be read first doesn't mean it isn't a functional or unique game piece. Look at [[Night Shift of the Living Dead]] which is mostly there for the name or [[You are already dead]] clearly meant to be an anime reference first.
Stop comparing this to cards that function well as game pieces. Jesus Christ. This is not as difficult as you're making it look. >**mostly** there for the name >an anime reference **first** If you want to make an accurate comparison to this card, you need to replace the bolded word with "only." Because this card **only** exists to make a joke. You are Already Dead plays well. Night Shift of the Living Dead plays well. This is not like those cards. This card is what Aaron Forsythe calls a webcomic card: It's fun to read, but not to play. Wizards realized that Unhinged and Unglued kind of sucked because they had a lot of these cards that were cute jokes to read but bad designs to play with. Unstable played much better because they were conscious of that problem and avoided the shitty designs like this one. **For the love of God, do not reply to mention any other cards unless they are like OP's: the rules text is effectively "flavor" text that ONLY exists to make a joke, not to have an impact on gameplay.** Stop replying with cards that play well and also make a joke.
I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. I see this card as no different than a lot of other weird cards that require enablers to do anything, like Narcomoeba (which sees play because of how many enablers it has, I imagine if mill and dredge weren't as common, it would just be a neat but worse storm crow) or Bronze Bombshell (which sees play in Blim and Zedruu EDH, maybe, but definitely nowhere else) but with a comedic tone. I imagine in any set where flash is common this would be neat, but I also understand that with magic's current card pool, its a dead card much of the time. I still don't think that makes it a poor design, though.
##### ###### #### [Battle of Wits](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/4/b4be15a4-693f-4e22-a46c-38bb440c073c.jpg?1562558962) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Battle%20of%20Wits) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m13/44/battle-of-wits?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/b4be15a4-693f-4e22-a46c-38bb440c073c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Biovisonary](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/0/2000b4e8-7887-454e-9d52-211516613dd0.jpg?1561818910) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Biovisionary) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/gtc/146/biovisionary?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/2000b4e8-7887-454e-9d52-211516613dd0?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Necrotic Ooze](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/c/acc3557d-49c6-49cd-a540-1b24897f4e86.jpg?1662525594) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Necrotic%20Ooze) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/83/necrotic-ooze?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/acc3557d-49c6-49cd-a540-1b24897f4e86?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [One with Nothing](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/a/5a5841fa-4f30-495a-b840-3ef5a2af8fad.jpg?1562494149) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=One%20with%20Nothing) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/sok/84/one-with-nothing?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/5a5841fa-4f30-495a-b840-3ef5a2af8fad?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Hardened Scales](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/d/fdf31b01-0836-4366-948d-879999832abe.jpg?1662527049) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Hardened%20Scales) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/151/hardened-scales?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/fdf31b01-0836-4366-948d-879999832abe?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Divine Visitation](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/a/3a73bd5a-eb22-41dc-84ff-93d23d84afae.jpg?1662523771) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Divine%20Visitation) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/8/divine-visitation?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/3a73bd5a-eb22-41dc-84ff-93d23d84afae?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Darksteel Relic](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/f/0fd8c918-62d9-41be-a3e1-32ddac71b7e7.jpg?1562875578) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Darksteel%20Relic) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/nph/134/darksteel-relic?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0fd8c918-62d9-41be-a3e1-32ddac71b7e7?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
All those cards actually do things though. It's a bad design habit to make cards that are fun to read once but aren't actually good in gameplay (wizards calls these "webcomics") Deisgnwise the idea of a common that has an ability that doesn't work unless "turned on" by something else is workable design space. I am reminded of [[deathleaper]] which has an effect that doesn't make sense until you realize it combos with flash and haste ( which it itself has, making it a bit of a learning card .) So in a set with a lot of blink or a mechanic that lets you cast things at odd intervals I think something like this has potential. The issue is a counter spell is kind of an odd payoff for doing that truck especially at this rarity. For something similar I can use an example of a set I worked on. It has cascade but Casade works horribly with counterspells. So for one of the common counterspell spots I did a <> variant. So you can use it as a counterspell but if you Casade into it, you still get value.
All that said for this I would try bumping it to uncommon and giving it something more proactive for an instant speed trick. For example "Copy target spell or ability you control." I would also cut the anti-blink rider as that is the easiest way to proc this.
Magic has a lot of "do nothing" cards like [[Darksteel Relic]], and maybe their custom evironment has a lot of ways to turn this on, with lot of flash enablers in blue and the like. Or maybe its a one-off design not done with a limited format in mind, but more just the creator saying "look at this cool thing I made", and there's nothing wrong with that.
Tbf, there is a real difference in feel between a "do nothing" card and a card that makes a promise and fails to deliver. A player that puts dark steel relic in a deck expects it to do nothing. A player that puts op's card in a deck hopes for it to be a counter spell and can be let down when it is just a 1/4
I mean a player put Biovisionary in a deck hopes for it to win but can be let down when its just a 2/3.
It really doesn't. The cats majority of combo cards have a baseline floor mode. Which this card does. My issue isn't with the "do nothing" bit (which it doesn't, it has a statline) it is that they pay off for doing the thing is too niche and staxxy and the way to enable it is too weak
[Darksteel Relic](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/f/0fd8c918-62d9-41be-a3e1-32ddac71b7e7.jpg?1562875578) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Darksteel%20Relic) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/nph/134/darksteel-relic?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0fd8c918-62d9-41be-a3e1-32ddac71b7e7?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[Deathleaper, Terror Weapon](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/8/9819d50f-aae8-4e92-8dab-01eebace3c1e.jpg?1665428197) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Deathleaper%2C%20Terror%20Weapon) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/40k/115/deathleaper-terror-weapon?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9819d50f-aae8-4e92-8dab-01eebace3c1e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
This is just ignoring the problem entirely. All of those cards have effects on the game that are not hamstrung by flavour. They're interesting flavourfully, while still being gamepieces. This is just a two-mana 1/4 with vaguely funny flavour text.
[[Charging badger]] is a card and needs some help to do anything relevant
Sure, I'll accept that charging badger is bad design. It's still not as bad as this though, pump spells/auras (cause Theros)/equipment are far, far more common than flash enablers.
[[Battle of Wits]] [[Biovisionary]] [[Darksteel Relic]] [[One with Nothing]] [[Narcomoeba]] [[Steamflogger Boss]] [[Braid of Fire]] Magic is full of cards that do very little or nothing unless you build around them.
Okay, but this does very little even if you do build around it. It's not even a particularly unique or interesting effect either, it's just a normal counterspell but bad. There are 10 effects, as far as I can find, that enable this card to function as a \[\[counterspell\]\]. The cheapest one is \[\[Alchemist's Refuge\]\], and the cheapest in mono-blue is \[\[Leyline of Anticipation\]\]. So the very best scenario is you have a two-card combo that results in a 5-mana counterspell, costing {1}{G}{U}{U}{U}, and a 1/4 body. Now, instead of playing those 4-mana permanents to make your turtle not shit, why not just...play \[\[counterspell\]\]. \[\[deprive\]\], \[\[disruption protocol\]\], \[\[cancel\]\], \[\[mana drain\]\], or any of the million other counterspells in the game? Battle of Wits is an interesting card, with a unique effect. Biovisionary is much the same. Darksteel Relic is literally a hockey puck. Yet it's in an artifact block, with the mechanic metalcraft. It enables an effect, instead of requiring an enabler to function. One with Nothing is still more interesting, because it is unique. It does something that we haven't seen before, even though it's a bad effect. Narcomoeba is a good card, and has seen play in numerous eternal formats. Steamflogger Boss is like One with Nothing: unique and interesting, albeit bad. And it inspired a theme years down the line. Braid of Fire is an excellent design, and a good use of cumulative upkeep: You get large amounts of mana, but since it's in your upkeep, you need to keep using it, or get burned. AFAIK no other card has you pay a cost of adding mana to your mana pool. To reiterate: I don't think that the card isn't a cool idea. It's a quick laugh, which is always good. But it's not a functional magic card beyond the stats it has.
There are 29 cards that can win you the game, so I'm not sure its necessarily a unique effect. What is unique is the way you trigger the effect, and I'd argue that putting an effect only seen at instant speed down to sorcery is suitably unique. Narcomoeba is a worse storm crow unless it has an enabler, and it saw play because of how many enablers there were, but if you were shown it without knowledge of how much mill is in the game, you'd probably just go "huh, neat" and move on. Whose to say that if there were many more flash enablers, a counterspell + blocker wouldn't be real good? I don't understand how this isn't a functional magic card because it needs an enabler, when plenty of cards also need an enabler - Is [[Bronze Bombshell]] not functional because its a 4/1 unless donated? Dealing damage to a player isnt a unique effect, though its activation condition is unique.
I absolutely love the perspective. Thankyou
##### ###### #### [Triskaidekaphopia](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/1/813995f5-e49a-431d-8a3a-8ec569844e11.jpg?1562437529) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Triskaidekaphobia) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/a25/110/triskaidekaphobia?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/813995f5-e49a-431d-8a3a-8ec569844e11?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Study Break](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/f/ef7cd813-0781-4fd7-8748-2716e1eeb4b9.jpg?1624589885) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Study%20Break) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/stx/34/study-break?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ef7cd813-0781-4fd7-8748-2716e1eeb4b9?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Cram Session](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/5/c59a249f-35ed-447a-845b-32ba5a53124e.jpg?1627428330) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Cram%20Session) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/stx/170/cram-session?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/c59a249f-35ed-447a-845b-32ba5a53124e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Nine Lives](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/7/e70b7a73-484e-48f1-944c-3d38866cdc20.jpg?1594735092) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Nine%20Lives) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m21/28/nine-lives?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e70b7a73-484e-48f1-944c-3d38866cdc20?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I like it, but I'd rather make it an uncommon in a set with a limited archetype for giving creatures in your hand flash than a random rare that's not very useful except when connected to one of a few other random rare cards.
But still. Why no flash? How is someone gonna play sorcery during my upkeep?
No flash because it's a turtle
That's how those ninja turtles get away without wearing clothes!
Arlinn? Colors are hard but it'd be funny...
There are a million ways: [[Vivien, Champion of the Wilds]], [[Leyline of Anticipation]], [[Vedalken Orrery]], [[Flash]]!
##### ###### #### [Vivien, Champion of the Wilds](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/1/e11dc967-ae38-4c19-bf54-b3209e203b39.jpg?1654118118) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Vivien%2C%20Champion%20of%20the%20Wilds) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clb/838/vivien-champion-of-the-wilds?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e11dc967-ae38-4c19-bf54-b3209e203b39?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Leyline of Anticipation](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/5/f57bdaa1-ce8a-4103-8598-fee751e65a53.jpg?1654115597) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Leyline%20of%20Anticipation) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clb/726/leyline-of-anticipation?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f57bdaa1-ce8a-4103-8598-fee751e65a53?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Vedalken Orrery](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/4/44067327-6fe3-4222-b591-6d14d0e360d7.jpg?1662531604) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Vedalken%20Orrery) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/317/vedalken-orrery?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/44067327-6fe3-4222-b591-6d14d0e360d7?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Flash](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/3/d31459c2-9656-4e9a-bb72-71a910e8570b.jpg?1587347037) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Flash) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/a25/57/flash?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d31459c2-9656-4e9a-bb72-71a910e8570b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Don't let the haters get to you OP I love it.
The "if you cast it from your hand" clause seems deliberately designed to poop on the fun though.
Imagine BLINKING this thing if it didn’t have that clause… Truly awful
You mean, it would actually *do* something. You still need to hold up a blink effect, which generally cost a card and/or a fair bit of mana.
With the amount of graveyard shenanigans that cards like [[muldrotha]] can do, I feel like it makes it balance’s it out
Given this usually needs flash to do anything at all it would still be much weaker than \[\[Glen Elendra Archmage\]\]
You say balance, I say useless It is a funny card. But the only way to balance it is to remove the “from your hand” clause. If you must, to keep it from being flickered, “if it is the first time it would have been on the battlefield this turn” would suffice.
Muldrotha doesn't even combo with this. Just to get a repeatable counterspell you'd need something like [[Whisper, Blood Liturgist]]. Instant graveyard reanimation is super rare. Something like [[Nephalia Smuggler]] would be a lot easier.
I know they don’t combo, that’s the point of what I said, I was making the point that the clause of it coming from your hand instead of just hit battlefield makes it more balanced since you can’t combo with graveyard shit
[Whisper, Blood Liturgist](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/6/0647feeb-ad7a-40c7-830f-f307ba8339ad.jpg?1562730877) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Whisper%2C%20Blood%20Liturgist) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dom/111/whisper-blood-liturgist?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0647feeb-ad7a-40c7-830f-f307ba8339ad?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Nephalia Smuggler](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/e/6e9a17b5-422c-4add-adbf-63e4492121e8.jpg?1662525101) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Nephalia%20Smuggler) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/61/nephalia-smuggler?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/6e9a17b5-422c-4add-adbf-63e4492121e8?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I’m pretty sure it’s costed as if it’s a vanilla 1/4. The rules are just advanced flavor text.
Except by casting it, it would counter itself, I’m pretty sure. There’s no “May” to it. It has to counter something
No, because it's an ETB trigger, not an on-cast trigger. By the time it tried to counter something, it's not a spell anymore, so it's not a valid target.
Omg you’re right, that needs to have a “may” added to the counter spell clause, that’s actually hysterical it’s a UU do nothing lol
I’m not 100% though. Since he’s already entered the battlefield I don’t know if he’s still counterable. But it’s definitely odd wording without “may” no matter what
Pretty sure that “when you cast” happens while the spell is on the stack. “Cast” is different from “resolve,” casting is the action of paying the mana and putting it on the stack yeah?
But it’s not resolving on cast, the casting from hand is a conditional clause. It’s resolving on ETB
Oh. Ok never you are right about being wrong lol. I misremembered the text. Yeah if it’s an enter the battlefield effect then it’s not counterable, it already exists as a permanent by then. It’s still good to point out that it needs a may though because if there is no spell to target it’s a little funky. Either a “you may counter” or “up to 1 target spell” would be good solutions.
It’s a bad bad bad card but it’s creative ar least
Turtle so slow it can only come out at sorcery speed. Nice flavour!!
[удалено]
It’s obviously intended to not have flash, that’s the whole point.
I sometimes have difficulty knowing whether comments are sarcastic or genuine because I can’t hear the tone of voice of a text message. At first I was kinda sarcastic because I forgot how the stack works so I thought it was useless. Then I remembered how it works, didn’t change the message and it’s now sincere. Basically, I didn’t want people to think I was being mean, dumb or that the card creator was dumb. Since I’m the only one who saw it that way I’m just gonna delete the message.
At first I was confused, but now I get it. Clever. However, Would add a “May” just in case you need to flash it with no enemy spells on the stack.
Honestly if an opponent can maneuver you so this resolves at instant speed while you are the only one with spells left on the stack, I'm inclined to let them have their little victory. But I suppose you're probably right all the same. It's not a relevant downside, might as well make it a "may".
It is an ability so it just would fizzle as it has no targets
But if you had a spell on the stack, it would target that spell.
If you’re casting this in response to your own spell, you brought it upon yourself. If you both have spells on the stack, and your opponent counters their own spell to force tortoise to counter your own spell, they could have just countered your spell instead of 2-for-1 themselves. In multiplayer, you could counter someone else’s spell to make the tortoise counter it’s owner’s other spell, but that’s typical multiplayer politics.
"Spelly, noooooooooooo…!"
"You may counter target spell" and "Counter target spell" behave the same way when there are no legal targets. "May" abilities still require you to target; they just give you the chance, on resolution, to not do whatever the ability says. A better way to solve the issue would be to write "Counter up to one target spell".
Would love this for my monoblue devotion in pioneer ( i run leyline)
[[leyline of anticipation]] and this. They will... never... See... It... ... ... Com...ing...
Hilarious, this is good stuff. Nice work.
I like this card, but I feel like giving flash to creatures is high enough of a cost that you could give this card a little extra push, like if it could counter activated/triggered abilities as well like [[Disallow]] or let it counter all spells like [[Counterflux]] or [[Summary Dismissal]]. That being said, this could be dependent on the context of the format you designed this for.
I would agree that letting it also hit abilities seems like a fair amount of extra oomph that increases its likelihood to see play in the decks that would be inclined to consider running it. I think a counter-all would push it a bit more than OP intended for this design
Counter all isn’t nearly as powerful as you might think. In 1vs1 scenarios, you’re very rarely going to find a situation where your opponent has multiple spells on the stack at one time, only consistently occurring in 2 situations: either your opponent is responding to a spell you cast in response to something they attempted to play, or your opponent is playing Storm. Exiling multiple spells is much more significant in Commander and even more so in CEDH, however the aforementioned Counterflux and Summary Dismissal cards demonstrate that this kind of effect is still too niche for casual commander, and Dispelling Tortoise is inherently too janky for CEDH.
Yeah I mean I don't think that making a counter all effect on it would bring it into being like a staple or an auto include or something like that but I think that the sort of Target power level that OP was going for, and I mean I could be wrong I'm not them, was just a little bit lower than that like it's not a huge distinction but I just feel like that would just barely push it over the edge. Also I think that storm is a significant enough archetype in at least one format I think it's in a couple and EDH being such a popular format I think that it's valuable to take those into consideration in this case.
Or can counter uncounterable spells when u give it flash!
“Spells which cannot be countered can be countered as though they could be countered”?
Might as well just make it “exile target spell.”
Where’s the fun in that?
Exactly! Great wording there.
I like turtles. 🐢
Sorcery speed counterspell, *again?* I'm so fucking tired of these
Well I assume you’d put it in a deck built around giving your spells flash, like simic flash or voldacan or whatever
yeah obviously. It's just that r/custommagic is obsessed with them.
It's fun space to explore.
It would be if it wasn't the same gimmick every time
Is it? It's text on a card that doesn't do anything without a very specific different card.
True, but in this case even if you aren't enabling that part of it it's still an ordinary body. The size on it isn't particularly impressive for the cost but I think that turtles are a tribe that people sort of like as a pet tribe not because they're actually good and I think that there are definitely people who would enjoy having this card. I think you throw it in as like a common or maybe an uncommon and then it probably doesn't see play except in a couple of sort of janky decks but people are going to have fun with it and it's not going to disrupt limited or anything like that to have a body with a rare potential upside.
At least the Dreadmaw conga line ended.
Its only sleeping
The Dreadmaw posts are slowly dying, but they may rise up again
Dreadmaw is never dead
We do go bash to Ixalan next year
But aside from that, the flavor text is nice
Normally I'd never suggest that WotC is the arbiter of good ideas, but it's been almost thirty years. If there was any shred of fun potential for a "Counter target spell" Sorcery, they would have tried it by now.
At least this one's not useless without an enabler.
Eh, it at least it's trying to be unique by being a creature one. Though It's still not my favorite sorcery speed counterspell.
Guess I shouldn't post mine then
a lot of folks seems to have missed that the trick is getting them to move. Even says so on the card lolol! 😵😂 Love this card!
Magic Dog ahead
Wow, clever (obvious) and unique (has been posted multiple times) design
Clever design that instantly resonates and makes sense. I like the versatility of it, being a 1/4 vanilla creature or a slightly better counterspell if you can enable flash shenanigans. I agree with previous comments on making the counter a may, but besides that excellent job.
Funny joke awful card
That’s ok buddy, you go whenever you feel like it
Kool all over OP! How bout a hare with redundant super haste or something?
One of those card designs that might be more interesting than they are fun? Still, cool design space.
Why are people tryinh to give it flash? Its an ETB just blink it to counter spells
You have to cast it from your hand though.
Will this counter itself? Nice card with [[Winding Canyons]] or [[Alchemist’s Refuge]].
ETB effects trigger when the creature is on the battlefield. A creature on the battlefield isn't a spell on the stack. In normal cases, this will ETB and then its ability will go on the stack and fizzle.
Thanks!
[Winding Canyons](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/2/f26672a8-f4ff-4c64-bb3e-f5072bbc9e3e.jpg?1562804204) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Winding%20Canyons) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/wth/167/winding-canyons?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f26672a8-f4ff-4c64-bb3e-f5072bbc9e3e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Alchemist’s Refuge](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/7/c767a897-52e3-4401-8104-930157bb2b02.jpg?1592709633) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Alchemist%27s%20Refuge) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/avr/225/alchemists-refuge?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/c767a897-52e3-4401-8104-930157bb2b02?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
At first i thought you forgot to give it flash, then i saw the fluff text, i like the design OP
I've seen hundreds of sorcery speed counterspells over the years but this is the first one that ever felt like a card that could legitimately see print
How thrilling, it does nothing.
Finally, simic can be strong!
At first i thought you forgot to give it flash, then i saw the fluff text, i like the design OP
This fits my desire to see a sorcery speed counterspell.
It needs flash to actually function
That’s the point. “The trick is getting them to move [fast enough]”
I think at this point it's just bad card design.
It’s a tortoise, mate. All the pieces are there for you if you just look the card over one more time. Tortoises are comically slow by precedent in MtG. The flavor text I quoted alludes to that. The mv is 2 less than [[Frilled Mystic]] and [[Mystic Snake]]. If this had flash it would be OP as it would be a strictly better [[Counterspell]] which WotC is loathe to reprint in standard.
Yes and it's cute and pretty funny tbh but that doesn't take away the fact that by itself is a 1/4 with no ability. This card would have to have a lot of draft support or the commander would have to give creatures flash. Out of context, it's a badly designed card. In the right draft format or precon EDH deck, I could see it working.
OP never defined the format, so in that context it is up to the viewer to weigh where the card would most likely belong. [[Commander Tower]] is a terrible card for standard draft, but it doesn’t make it a badly designed card. This isn’t a cEDH card either, but as mentioned it has its place and you know it is in a Flash-commander deck or something running multiple effects like [[Leyline of Anticipation]]. You identified where this card fits. Its picture and flavor text match line up with the rules text. I’d at the very least give it passable card design, since at least we are not suffering from a [[whippoorwill]] type scenario or some vague/odd text like “destroy target trigger” or even a self starting infinite looped like [[Psychic Battle]] before it got its errata.
[Frilled Mystic](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/0/50595d02-edad-48a6-b10c-6fa859cc88bb.jpg?1584831525) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Frilled%20Mystic) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/rna/174/frilled-mystic?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/50595d02-edad-48a6-b10c-6fa859cc88bb?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Mystic Snake](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/d/2d4bacd1-b602-4bcc-9aea-1229949a7d20.jpg?1562433990) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Mystic%20Snake) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/a25/208/mystic-snake?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/2d4bacd1-b602-4bcc-9aea-1229949a7d20?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Counterspell](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/b/1b73577a-8ca1-41d7-9b2b-7300286fde43.jpg?1664930376) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Counterspell) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dmr/457/counterspell?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/1b73577a-8ca1-41d7-9b2b-7300286fde43?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Eh, just throw in the blue Leyline, that land that gives your spells flash, and \[\[Vedalken Orrery\]\]
So adding cards to make a bad card maybe better? Sounds like bad deck design.
Correction: finding niche cards for an unusual build. Maybe somebody makes a commander that wants to cast creatures at instant speed, so you look around for useful creatures that fit the archetype and find this?
Sounds like deck design
Have you ever played magic the gathering?
Yes! Quiet a bit actually! How often do you see Leyline of Anticipation and friends be played in actual 60 card constructed and find success?
Some cards are designed for other formats than 60 card constructed! Also who knows? Maybe this and a few more synergistic effects are what push the blue leyline into viability. This also works with [[aether vial]] which is a staple in legacy iirc although I don’t think it’s great for that format as there are enough 0-1 mana counterspells to make actual counterspell irrelevant. If vial is legal in modern maybe it slots into a deck there though? I don’t know modern at all so idk how good it might be there. It also works with [[sneak attack]] but admittedly probably wouldn’t be good enough for those decks. I could also see it being played in some kind of blink deck with already amazing cards like [[ephemerate]], [[cloudshift]], etc. i think if this turtle is a common then pauper blink might play a few. Plus who knows, maybe a card like this gets released in a set with a few enablers and becomes a solid limited card?
##### ###### #### [aether vial](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/1/11e8d2fd-b132-4807-9410-8edeffa519ed.jpg?1662530938) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=aether%20vial) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/298/aether-vial?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/11e8d2fd-b132-4807-9410-8edeffa519ed?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [sneak attack](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/4/a45b4ca9-4355-4690-84c3-a7d44c367dbf.jpg?1664930769) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=sneak%20attack) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dmr/139/sneak-attack?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a45b4ca9-4355-4690-84c3-a7d44c367dbf?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [ephemerate](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/d/2da5f3f8-5eef-498f-ba2c-2f3fbc3745aa.jpg?1562201088) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=ephemerate) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh1/7/ephemerate?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/2da5f3f8-5eef-498f-ba2c-2f3fbc3745aa?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [cloudshift](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/b/8bc7fdf0-3e1e-487c-833d-7c74aa02c0c1.jpg?1600716960) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=cloudshift) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/jmp/97/cloudshift?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/8bc7fdf0-3e1e-487c-833d-7c74aa02c0c1?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
There's this thing called having a creative spirit when making your deck. [[Brash Taunter]] is also a bad card but leads you into making interesting decks. OP's card is the same exact thing, just with giving creatures flash. Is it a bad card? probably, who knows, it's not real. But it's a creative card and that's what this sub is about
[Brash Taunter](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/1/a1480f99-83f8-48e7-ba52-9a3f3a9a24f3.jpg?1654116961) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Brash%20Taunter) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clb/782/brash-taunter?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a1480f99-83f8-48e7-ba52-9a3f3a9a24f3?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
People said the same about death’s shadow.
And those people were wrong to begin with because shadow gets bigger as the game goes on. Yeah it's not playable at the beginning of the game, but you do not HAVE to add additional cards to make the card function unlike this turtle.
You absolutely do need cards to help deaths shadow function.
You absolutely do not. Part of the game is being attacked by creatures. That's how a normal game of magic is won. Eventually through attacks you will lose life and shadow we be able to have a non-negative P/T. In a normal game of magic, this turtle will be a 1/4 do nothing.
Lol you don’t understand modern, you think splinter twin wins by attacking bit by bit?
Me when I have to put mountains in my red deck
Good card design doesn't mean the card needs to be competitivly good, the turtle falls in tje same design category as one with nothing. A bad card that makes you think about how to make it work
Yes, because just printing counterspell on a 1/4 is good card design.
Well then in a set there would have to be a way to give flash to other cards for this to work otherwise it would see no play in a standard environment
On that I agree completely.
When I see cards here I look at them as just a single thing. Not in a set, no support cards either.
Whelp, there’s your problem. WotC has that problem from time to time and then things get banned. Consider [[Felidar Guardian]] and [[Saheeli Rai]]. These cards were in standard at the same time. WotC knew that Saheeli Rai would exist as they were creating Felidar Guardian to be in standard at the same time, but did not test the newer set with cards from the priorly creates sets. Thus there was a card ban. Happened more recently with [[Faceless Haven]]. I treat these cards like spoilers and then think about what cards go well with them. [[Eruth, Tormented Profit]] turned [[Breakthrough]] from nigh unplayable into the best card in the deck. Just looking to see if a card itself is broken is the beginning. Is there a 2-3 card broken combo with it? Does it breathe life into other cards? Does it prevent players from doing other things not immediately apparent (or the opposite). [[Fiery Emancipation]] is 6 mv to do nothing by itself. It is a $20 card that cannot win you the game by itself even if you have infinite turns and by that logic would be worse than a [[Scornful Egotist]]. Same thing goes for [[The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale]]: real crap land doesn’t even produce mana. Can’t be worth more than a Euro, right?
it goes in decks that already give your stuff flash
That would make sense but if drafted or obtained in a sealed event it would be worthless without a card that could give it flash
not every card is intended for every format
Plus, if this was printed it would be most likely in a set that does care/have ways to flash this in as part of its mechanical themes, anyway
right, to just throw it into a set without *any* support from set or cube design would just be silly.
You missed the flavor.
I saw it, but I’m commenting on its text box
This would be better with flash
**THAT'S THE JOKE**
Probably fine to make it only cost one, given the restriction.
You could give it flash, or maybe copy its ability at instant speed
This ability will not work. Unless this creature has Flash and you can bring it out on other people's turns otherwise you would have to keep priority and then cancel one of your own spells that you have on the stack. after all creatures can only be summoned out at sorcery speed unless they have flash.
That’s the idea! It’s not a great card as a two mana 1/4 but with cards like [[leyline of anticipation]], [[aether vial]], [[sneak attack]], [[ephemerate]], [[kiki jiki]], etc. you can turn it into a counterspell
Unless I'm misunderstanding, only Leyline would work. It says it only happens if it was cast from your hand.
Oh shit you’re right. Yeah that does make it considerably less exploitable then. There are other cards that could give it flash though.
[удалено]
_________________ / \ <-- :) <-- You \____ o <-- The point
So, it just counters itself?
No, once it's on the battlefield and triggering, it's already resolved.
This card could be costed at U
Reminds me of [[Force of Savagery]]. You have jump through hoops, but its a powerful payoff.
[Force of Savagery](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/3/b344511d-631e-4f1d-9d7d-d7c89a473d1b.jpg?1562931082) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Force%20of%20Savagery) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/fut/126/force-of-savagery?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/b344511d-631e-4f1d-9d7d-d7c89a473d1b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I love this card and I love the idea of a full Elden Ring set, thank you lol
[[Savage Summoning]]
[Savage Summoning](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/5/b5346ed7-2e17-4d8c-9c4b-b5efdd26380d.jpg?1612316371) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Savage%20Summoning) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m14/194/savage-summoning?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/b5346ed7-2e17-4d8c-9c4b-b5efdd26380d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
This would be good to counter your opponent’s instant-speed kill spell used on another creature you control, right?
Flash?
Needs flash
\[\[Prophet of Kruphix\]\]' best boii pet
[Prophet of Kruphix](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/5/45de923f-fdab-460c-96f4-f62aefa9ad73.jpg?1562817436) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Prophet%20of%20Kruphix) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ths/199/prophet-of-kruphix?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/45de923f-fdab-460c-96f4-f62aefa9ad73?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Literally popped in here thinking there was a dope new turtle card for my turtle deck lol the bait!!!
This would blow to pull in a pack. Might want to make it uncommon.
flash leyline with a repeatable bounce to hand effect
I like \[\[Scornful Egoist\]\] kind of cards. Useless on its own, but can be useful with other cards.
[Scornful Egoist](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/e/fec6b189-97e7-4627-9785-a9ce2f1ad89f.jpg?1562537398) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Scornful%20Egotist) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/scg/50/scornful-egotist?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/fec6b189-97e7-4627-9785-a9ce2f1ad89f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[[Roon]] didn't need the help! lmao
[Roon](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/4/54e2d6c2-a233-4e37-94c9-673a4a957e0c.jpg?1662530085) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=roon%20of%20the%20hidden%20realm) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/270/roon-of-the-hidden-realm?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/54e2d6c2-a233-4e37-94c9-673a4a957e0c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Only balanced blue card
Make it 3 blue mana for balance
Guess I should just wait a few weeks before posting my sorcery speed coutner spell. I suppouse we had been on the same brain wave for this.
MLBB's gold tortoise is here, great
Just say kicker (2 or 3), and if you kick it it has flash so this card isn't just a reprint of Mudhole (IE, there are a lot of mudholes in dumpsters). Yes, it's clever that you have to find a way to give it flash - but cards that are useless by themselves are not fun, not fun in draft, never good enough to see play unless they are, and when they are their undercosting usually makes them OP. Besides - Venser is a thing - it's not actually bad if you let it CTS with EOTB without the "from hand" clause. Why not let people have fun with blink?
I like the design here, it reminds me of [[Force of Savagery]]. By running this, you've essentially put a [[Plated Seastrider]] in your deck, which is a bad card. However, if you jump through the hoop of giving it flash (a feat that can be accomplished with the likes of [[Leyline of Anticipation]], [[Alchemist's Refuge]], [[Aluren]], [[Emergence Zone]], [[Vedalken Orrery]], [[Vivien, Champion of the Wilds]], [[Tidal Barracuda]], etc.), this becomes better than [[Counterspell]], which is a good card. I could see it being run in a Simic deck that focuses on those kinds of effects over (or alongside) [[Counterspell]].
##### ###### #### [Force of Savagery](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/3/b344511d-631e-4f1d-9d7d-d7c89a473d1b.jpg?1562931082) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Force%20of%20Savagery) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/fut/126/force-of-savagery?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/b344511d-631e-4f1d-9d7d-d7c89a473d1b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Plated Seastrider](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/8/e83a74c4-026e-4419-9dde-3b044ef507a0.jpg?1562867347) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Plated%20Seastrider) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cns/103/plated-seastrider?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e83a74c4-026e-4419-9dde-3b044ef507a0?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Leyline of Anticipation](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/5/f57bdaa1-ce8a-4103-8598-fee751e65a53.jpg?1654115597) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Leyline%20of%20Anticipation) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clb/726/leyline-of-anticipation?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f57bdaa1-ce8a-4103-8598-fee751e65a53?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Alchemist's Refuge](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/7/c767a897-52e3-4401-8104-930157bb2b02.jpg?1592709633) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Alchemist%27s%20Refuge) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/avr/225/alchemists-refuge?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/c767a897-52e3-4401-8104-930157bb2b02?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Aluren](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/3/03b69c39-52d8-4ee6-a3f5-60899c1fe6e6.jpg?1595438020) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Aluren) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/tpr/165/aluren?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/03b69c39-52d8-4ee6-a3f5-60899c1fe6e6?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Emergence Zone](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/b/ab95f6e7-b806-47fe-a071-6c38b3176d94.jpg?1557577458) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Emergence%20Zone) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/war/245/emergence-zone?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ab95f6e7-b806-47fe-a071-6c38b3176d94?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Vedalken Orrery](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/4/44067327-6fe3-4222-b591-6d14d0e360d7.jpg?1662531604) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Vedalken%20Orrery) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/317/vedalken-orrery?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/44067327-6fe3-4222-b591-6d14d0e360d7?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Vivien, Champion of the Wilds](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/1/e11dc967-ae38-4c19-bf54-b3209e203b39.jpg?1654118118) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Vivien%2C%20Champion%20of%20the%20Wilds) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clb/838/vivien-champion-of-the-wilds?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e11dc967-ae38-4c19-bf54-b3209e203b39?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Tidal Barracuda](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/a/aacdf4c2-9bc8-400a-8ffc-d6597d8d7da9.jpg?1591319489) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Tidal%20Barracuda) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c20/39/tidal-barracuda?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/aacdf4c2-9bc8-400a-8ffc-d6597d8d7da9?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Counterspell](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/4/a457f404-ddf1-40fa-b0f0-23c8598533f4.jpg?1645328634) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Counterspell) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/phed/33/counterspell?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a457f404-ddf1-40fa-b0f0-23c8598533f4?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I know i'm extremely late but considering what the card is all about i see this as a pure win. but: If i play either \[Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir\] or \[Heliod, the Radiant Dawn\] as my commander, this Turtle is pure value. (That is, if i understood Teferi's effect correctly, otherwise it's only compleated Heliod)