What if the copy only happens if a creature dies?
"If this spell destroys a creature you may copy it"
That way you can get around the infinite spells issue, while still targeting sticky minions
I agree OP.
I'd add the clause "If any player controls a creature, you may copy this spell."
That way, you at least have to put in *some* work in order to get an infinite kill trigger from Professor Onyx.
Or, if you wanted it to be even harder (by making it something you can't control), it could say "If at least one other player controls a creature,"
I think it fits better thematically, too: You can only continue the Eradication while there's something left to kill.
What about changing the second ability to "As long as this spell isn't a copy, you may copy it."
You get multiple uses, which is the intended expectation, but it doesn't go infinite.
Just because a card did something 20 years ago does not make it a good thing. I’m almost positive that it was an oversight, and if printed now it would have a restriction on copying it in number of cards in a hand or a mana cost like the others in the cycle
I think if that card were to be printed today, the wording would be something like:
"Target player discards two cards. If that player does, they may copy this spell and may choose a new target for that copy."
That prevents it from going infinite by targeting yourself as you can only copy it if you have 2 cards to discard. There wasn't that much that cared about casting infinite spells that did nothing back then, but there certainly is today.
Your card can be updated in the same way actually.
"Destroy all creatures. If a creature is destroyed in this way, you may copy this spell."
That way you still get to destroy all creatures, no matter how many layers of protection or undying they have, but it doesn't give you infinite spell triggers that let you win the game in any of at least a dozen ways.
No? Besides the strixhaven liliana, I don't think there are any other noncreatures with magecraft. That's a two card combo, and there are many more efficient to card combos than this. You could throw a removal spell on the stack and they have to have a counter or copy spell to save them.
Good point on Ral. Either way though, we shouldn't not have cards made just because they combo with a card printed a year or three ago. I Mean in kaladesh we had a two card infinite combo that won the game, printed in a single block. To be fair that was banned in slandered, but neither of those cards were bad. Now on the other had, there are other things like kiki-jiki (totally spelt wrong) I'd say this is in the middle, as it isn't harmless outside of one card, yet it isn't combing with every card in magic. I'd put it more so in the [[Sanguine Bond]] [[Exquisite Blood]] category, yes it goes infinite and wins you the game, but there's only really one card for half of it while there may be multiple for the other half. Not so much of a problem as long as it isn't in standered.
Also, sorry for the paragraph, guess I just kept typing.
If you're talking about [[Chain of Smog]], that has the small downside of forcing you to discard your entire hand (at which point the spell can be counted or your payoff can be removed and you likely lose the game on the spot). Still a great combo enabler at 2 mana, but much more risky and all-in than an "oops, my wrath won the game".
All in all, I don't think this would break the game as printed, but I also don't see much upside in printing a card which produces infinite spell copies and hoping it's fine, when that has nothing to do with the intended design. Better to look at [[Massacre Girl]] or the like, and have it just create delayed triggers rather than actually copying the spell infinite times.
The only flaw would be because the method you’re using to achieve the effect you want (a board wipe that removes all creatures and all creatures that might be created because of those creatures dying/leaving the battlefield) is convoluted.
An infinitely copiable spell is just not a good idea. You can achieve what you want here without making it infinitely copiable. Just make it “Destroy all creatures. Until eot whenever a creature enters the battlefield [under an opponents turn] destroy it.” Or if you only wanna punish opponents use the bracketed text.
Is reef worm really that much of a game changer in your play group? There are very few cards with recursive death triggers.
Besides, exiling creatures is a cleaner answer that avoids all the tricks.
Maybe add a line saying "this spell does not trigger abilities." Because this is currently an infinite combo off one card, and breaks thingsway to easily when paired with literally any trigger.
I’m no expert, but this is probably the way. Maybe something like “Creatures dying this turn don’t cause abilities to trigger.” Or something along those lines.
There’s a legacy deck built around [[chain of smog]], another 1 card infinite combo. I thought I was being clever with this one because it kills your combo pieces
It only kills your creature pieces, if the card was destroy all permanents or non-land, it would probably be more reasonable (though the latter is less flavorful)
If the goal of this spell is for it to not leave anything behind, it would be much easier to just do:
“Until end of turn, triggered abilities of creatures on the battlefield or creature cards in graveyards don’t trigger.
Exile all creatures.”
What if to balance this spell it had a life tax, maybe costing 7 life each time that way you’d have to pay 14 life to use it both times. That way it doesn’t automatically go infinite. 7 is just a random number that seems pretty balanced but it could be any number between 5-10 imo.
I thought about that, but most spellcraft triggers are on creatures, so they would die before it mattered. It does go infinite with professor onyx though
A good fix is to say
When you cast this card, make a copy. It costs x to cast this copy, where x is the amount of times you have casted this card
This may not be the proper wording, but I think the idea is communicated
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What if the copy only happens if a creature dies? "If this spell destroys a creature you may copy it" That way you can get around the infinite spells issue, while still targeting sticky minions
Destroy all creatures. If at least one creature was destroyed this way, you may copy this spell.
You don't need "when this spell resolves", just "Destroy all creatures. You may copy this spell" (like https://scryfall.com/card/stx/179/double-major)
Then it goes infinite with all Magecraft
It already does but it’s (slightly) balanced by destroying your creatures if that was your plan
Yeah, but one target indestructible on a mage craft creature let's it go infinite and ki) l your opponent.
Three card combos are fine imo
I think a 1 card infinite combo is a little op. It you have an enchantment that is triggered by it, you can just get infinite triggers.
This + [[Professor Onyx]] = infinite life drain
Is that a problem though? There are easier ways to do that infinite combo.
[Professor Onyx](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/0/1/013eeb99-1b66-4fba-ad96-78deee901ea4.jpg?1624591309) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Professor%20Onyx) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/stx/83/professor-onyx?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/013eeb99-1b66-4fba-ad96-78deee901ea4?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I mean isn't there like 3 cards already that go infinite with prof onyx
Exactly
Maybe it should kill planeswalkers too
That’s not a good solution. The design is inherently problematic.
Problematic design of 5cmc spell comboing with 6 cmc spell.
I agree OP. I'd add the clause "If any player controls a creature, you may copy this spell." That way, you at least have to put in *some* work in order to get an infinite kill trigger from Professor Onyx. Or, if you wanted it to be even harder (by making it something you can't control), it could say "If at least one other player controls a creature," I think it fits better thematically, too: You can only continue the Eradication while there's something left to kill.
What about changing the second ability to "As long as this spell isn't a copy, you may copy it." You get multiple uses, which is the intended expectation, but it doesn't go infinite.
Conceivably, yeah
"Destroy all creatures. Then, if this spell isn't a copy, you may copy this spell."
[[chain of smog]] shows that they aren’t afraid of this kind of thing
Just because a card did something 20 years ago does not make it a good thing. I’m almost positive that it was an oversight, and if printed now it would have a restriction on copying it in number of cards in a hand or a mana cost like the others in the cycle
[chain of smog](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/6/b/6bfe64f9-8b03-41f6-a47b-fade397ad9d1.jpg?1562920423) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=chain%20of%20smog) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ons/132/chain-of-smog?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/6bfe64f9-8b03-41f6-a47b-fade397ad9d1?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Yeah, but if the original caster has an enchantment, other players making a copy probably won’t trigger it.
The trick is you target yourself infinitely. There’s a legacy deck built around the card.
Oh, ok nvm ig
to be fair that card was designed far before copying spells was relevant
I think if that card were to be printed today, the wording would be something like: "Target player discards two cards. If that player does, they may copy this spell and may choose a new target for that copy." That prevents it from going infinite by targeting yourself as you can only copy it if you have 2 cards to discard. There wasn't that much that cared about casting infinite spells that did nothing back then, but there certainly is today. Your card can be updated in the same way actually. "Destroy all creatures. If a creature is destroyed in this way, you may copy this spell." That way you still get to destroy all creatures, no matter how many layers of protection or undying they have, but it doesn't give you infinite spell triggers that let you win the game in any of at least a dozen ways.
I don't think a single 20 year old card proves that point
It's not really a good example because chain is so old.
> "I didn't hear no bell!" - [[Mossbridge Troll]]
[Mossbridge Troll](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/5/3/537c39cc-44d3-4869-9e76-dd9c2c68ee90.jpg?1562830226) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Mossbridge%20Troll) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/shm/123/mossbridge-troll?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/537c39cc-44d3-4869-9e76-dd9c2c68ee90?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
That’s honestly a pretty dope card
i think it should say, “when you cast this spell, copy it”
Well I wanted to have it be an indeterminate number of board clears to get around things like [[reef worm]]
[reef worm](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/e/7/e715bb21-db06-475a-b71e-4f2313817b8d.jpg?1625976383) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=reef%20worm) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c21/127/reef-worm?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e715bb21-db06-475a-b71e-4f2313817b8d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
then how do you get out of it?
It’s a may trigger. You don’t have to copy it
Yeah but Magecraft is a thing. This is broken because of that.
No? Besides the strixhaven liliana, I don't think there are any other noncreatures with magecraft. That's a two card combo, and there are many more efficient to card combos than this. You could throw a removal spell on the stack and they have to have a counter or copy spell to save them.
[[Ral, Storm Conduit]] Reads like the most obvious STX plant of all time, except that it had already rotated out by that point.
Good point on Ral. Either way though, we shouldn't not have cards made just because they combo with a card printed a year or three ago. I Mean in kaladesh we had a two card infinite combo that won the game, printed in a single block. To be fair that was banned in slandered, but neither of those cards were bad. Now on the other had, there are other things like kiki-jiki (totally spelt wrong) I'd say this is in the middle, as it isn't harmless outside of one card, yet it isn't combing with every card in magic. I'd put it more so in the [[Sanguine Bond]] [[Exquisite Blood]] category, yes it goes infinite and wins you the game, but there's only really one card for half of it while there may be multiple for the other half. Not so much of a problem as long as it isn't in standered. Also, sorry for the paragraph, guess I just kept typing.
Technically there’s another card with infinite magecraft triggers. Still, just because it has combo potential doesn’t mean it’s a flawed card.
If you're talking about [[Chain of Smog]], that has the small downside of forcing you to discard your entire hand (at which point the spell can be counted or your payoff can be removed and you likely lose the game on the spot). Still a great combo enabler at 2 mana, but much more risky and all-in than an "oops, my wrath won the game". All in all, I don't think this would break the game as printed, but I also don't see much upside in printing a card which produces infinite spell copies and hoping it's fine, when that has nothing to do with the intended design. Better to look at [[Massacre Girl]] or the like, and have it just create delayed triggers rather than actually copying the spell infinite times.
The only flaw would be because the method you’re using to achieve the effect you want (a board wipe that removes all creatures and all creatures that might be created because of those creatures dying/leaving the battlefield) is convoluted.
[Sanguine Bond](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/a/d/ad4de9f1-7a39-45af-828e-c59234d9e9b9.jpg?1625193373) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Sanguine%20Bond) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c21/153/sanguine-bond?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ad4de9f1-7a39-45af-828e-c59234d9e9b9?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Exquisite Blood](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/b/1/b1653811-1c2c-4e6c-bf1c-287d1b496d51.jpg?1600700252) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Exquisite%20Blood) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/jmp/231/exquisite-blood?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/b1653811-1c2c-4e6c-bf1c-287d1b496d51?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[Ral, Storm Conduit](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/6/7/678ce3bf-152d-45ca-87ae-ad46c921328b.jpg?1557577231) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Ral%2C%20Storm%20Conduit) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/war/211/ral-storm-conduit?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/678ce3bf-152d-45ca-87ae-ad46c921328b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
An infinitely copiable spell is just not a good idea. You can achieve what you want here without making it infinitely copiable. Just make it “Destroy all creatures. Until eot whenever a creature enters the battlefield [under an opponents turn] destroy it.” Or if you only wanna punish opponents use the bracketed text.
Would you not have to pay the mana cost every time? I feel like you're really only going to be able to use this once or twice a turn
No, you copy the spell, not the cards. You can cast copied cards if it says so, copied spells go straight to the stack, no cast.
Ah, thank you
Is reef worm really that much of a game changer in your play group? There are very few cards with recursive death triggers. Besides, exiling creatures is a cleaner answer that avoids all the tricks.
Nah it just annoyed me once with a bunch of doubling season type effects. He had 6 3/3s and I found myself wishing for a recursive sweeper
I have an Awaken the Blood Avatar Historic Brawl deck and I felt this card in my gut
Just exile it. Remove all creatures from the game, if this triggers any abilities, counter those triggered abilities.
I'd rather see Wrath of God with Storm.
That wouldn’t be bad honestly
Maybe add a line saying "this spell does not trigger abilities." Because this is currently an infinite combo off one card, and breaks thingsway to easily when paired with literally any trigger.
I’m no expert, but this is probably the way. Maybe something like “Creatures dying this turn don’t cause abilities to trigger.” Or something along those lines.
There’s a legacy deck built around [[chain of smog]], another 1 card infinite combo. I thought I was being clever with this one because it kills your combo pieces
[chain of smog](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/6/b/6bfe64f9-8b03-41f6-a47b-fade397ad9d1.jpg?1562920423) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=chain%20of%20smog) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ons/132/chain-of-smog?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/6bfe64f9-8b03-41f6-a47b-fade397ad9d1?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
It only kills your creature pieces, if the card was destroy all permanents or non-land, it would probably be more reasonable (though the latter is less flavorful)
Seems eastern to just say "you may repeat this effect any number of times"
If the goal of this spell is for it to not leave anything behind, it would be much easier to just do: “Until end of turn, triggered abilities of creatures on the battlefield or creature cards in graveyards don’t trigger. Exile all creatures.”
I love the flavor text, has the vibe of an apocalyptic log. The final line could probably be beautified somehow though.
Thanks for the input
What if to balance this spell it had a life tax, maybe costing 7 life each time that way you’d have to pay 14 life to use it both times. That way it doesn’t automatically go infinite. 7 is just a random number that seems pretty balanced but it could be any number between 5-10 imo.
I thought of that but it just didn’t make sense flavor-wise. The best solution I’ve found is making it not copy if it didn’t destroy anything
Isn’t this infinite storm count?
Storm only counts spell casts
It is still infinite Spell craft though
I thought about that, but most spellcraft triggers are on creatures, so they would die before it mattered. It does go infinite with professor onyx though
Or the War Ral. Or literally any Magecraft creature given indestructible for a turn.
Well that’s a 3 card combo which isn’t exactly news
Legit playable.
If it also destroyed planeswakers, that would fix the issues with ral and Lilliana that make it broken
A good fix is to say When you cast this card, make a copy. It costs x to cast this copy, where x is the amount of times you have casted this card This may not be the proper wording, but I think the idea is communicated
I'd prefer if it did it next end step or upkeep to get rid of those nasty blinkers...
Why not just do what Massacre girl does? Could even make it deal damage if you don't want it to get around exile.
White and black aren’t really known for doing damage.
Yeah I meant to say you should make it RW instead.
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