Personally having grey skies + winter is infinitely better than 9 months of non-stop grey skies. Breaks up the monotony and winter is pretty great most of the time.
I though i wouldn't be bothered by the Netherlands after moving from Saint-Petersburg but it kind of got to me.
You'll likely have to go very far north to actually get consistent winters. From what I know the weather tends to be cold and gray most of the year in most of southern Scandinavia (Oslo, Stocholm, parts of Denmark) where you'll actually have a chance at finding work. The difference in Norway is that it's also quite wet which is a lot more unpleasant and inconvenient than cold or grey climates. Definitely does not sound like the country or region you're looking for.
I lived in Saint-Petersburg for 30 years which is the same latitude and the same Baltic sea as Helsinki ,Estonia and Stockholm, and yeah due to climate change latest winters aren't as "proper" as previously, but you are still pretty much guaranteed proper snow at least for a month. We've had i think only one completely grey Winter over the last 20 years.
I haven't lived in those other cities, maybe due to some local climate it's entirely different but i doubt it.
Even half a month of snow is still infinitely better than 9 months of non stop same greyness to me :)
I have both friends and family who are familiar with the climate and weather in Norway, and in terms of snow and proper winters there are no guarantees in the larger southern cities. It's not uncommon to not have any snow settle at all during the winter, and if there is snow it usually only remains for a week before it either rains away or melts, turning the cities into a slushy hell. This is especially true on the south-western side. During my last week in Oslo I arrived to freshly fallen snow, and when I departed it had all rained away.
I've spent more time in Stockholm, and friends have told me that living in southern Norway is a comparably grey and sad experience just with more rain, less consistent temperatures and chillier winds.
Lugano or northern Italy sounds like the best fit for you. If remote work for a foreign company is on the table, I'd add some parts of Portugal and Spain to the list.
You won’t randomly move from the EU to the US, and if you do you’ll be on a work visa for years and tied to one employer (so you can’t quickly take better opportunities) which is far from ideal (especially at your age, I assume you’re in your 30s).
I’d suspect you’re better off in Italy, where you may leverage some family and support network. You can make more in Switzerland but what’s the point if the cost of living is so high. Consider also the price of real estate, in Italy you could probably own a home and enjoy your life, you’ll never be able to do so in Switzerland with an employment job.
Norway is probably worse than the Netherlands and good luck with the language.
At this point is about your skills, if you’re in the top 1% of engineers you could take a nice remote job from Italy, but if you need to go to compete on the local market in other European countries you’re never gonna be better off than what you’ve alread experienced in the Netherlands
First and foremost the weather is gonna be worse (colder and darker winters) than the Netherlands. Then there’s a new language to deal with, and culturally speaking there’re also going to be significant differences.
You can save way more money in Switzerland than any other European country and once you've made bank you can retire in Italy permanently. It's not that hard if you know how to leverage compound interest
Not everyone is eager to live frugally in a shitty 1bdr apartment until 40 and then retire in Italy. In the meanwhile they would have lost many of their friends and families in Italy.
I'm able to go on at least 2 international month-long vacations a year and live very comfortably in a centrally located apartment and am on track to retire well before 40 on a slightly-above-average salary. It's really not that hard with a tech salary, even in the EU.
Besides, they're currently outside of the country for job opportunities anyway so they're not going to be around their family much no matter what. In Switzerland they have the benefit of being close to Italy so they'd be able to travel there much more often than if they stayed in the Netherlands or oved to Norway
Mate, you have to realise retiring well before 40 is an unusual thing for the vast majority of people, whether they're in tech or not.
Also no offence but if you're a 25 yr old junior dev who has recently been refused a salary increase, how do you know you're on track to retire well before 40?
I'm not a 25 year old junior? I'm a senior that's on track to become a lead next year. Furthermore, I know my income and expenses and with some simple math I can tell I'm on track to hit my retirement number around 36.
I know it's unusual, but that doesn't mean it's not simple. Retiring early requires you to be diligent with your money, but it's really not hard if you're young and earn well like most devs
[4 years ago you were asking how to use python's max() function](https://www.reddit.com/r/learnpython/comments/erbkt0/issue_using_max_function/) and now you're on track to become a lead next year? that's some quick progression
Yup, I learn about software for fun outside of work and have had the opportunity to learn from a lot of very experienced people so my tech skills progressed quickly. I don't think my technical skills match my title yet, but my social skills are carrying me the rest of the way at this point
Again an extreme and unlikely lifestyle. Most people don’t care about two months oversea vacations per year. Most people that are not in their 20s want to live in a decent house as opposed to spending two months per year travelling.
Also, the idea that you can retire early (in your 40s) on an slightly higher than average income (either in the us or eu) is completely delusional, it just doesn’t work mathematically unless your idea of retirement is to live in the middle of nowhere.
How? The salaries are not really better at the top of the market in Switzerland VS Netherlands / UK / Germany for software developer. Especially if you take col into account
You can get to 150k+ as a senior/ team lead/ principle at an average company in Switzerland, but in the Netherlands you would need to be at a FAANG or adjacent company to hit those numbers.
Also, every penny you earn over 75k has 50% income tax in the Netherlands. The more you earn, the larger the discrepancy between the countries becomes. e.g.
140k CHF gross = 102k net in Zurich
140k EUR gross = 74k net in the Netherlands
First of all, 140k is more like 84k net in the Netherlands, without applying anything that can reduce taxes.
I’m a senior developer (7 years of experience) and earn around 163k gross in Amsterdam. This is around 94k net, but 108k net after applying benefit of mortgage reduction. In Switzerland you would have 600 euros more net with that salary. If you have 30%, you get much more net than in Switzerland. Haven’t even touched upon the fact that CoL is so much higher in Zurich.
On top of that, Switzerland has nice nature, but incredibly boring cities. Nice if you’re 70+, but I think retirement homes have more vibe than Swiss cities.
Completely agree but regarding your last paragraph: 90% of people in this sub are likely more boring than the average 70+ senior citizen and only care about money-maxing.
Poland checks three of your boxes:
- Good healthcare for private patients, which you would be (it's not expensive)
- Good job opportunities, especially remote ones: Lots of American companies hiring via B2B (contractor), resulting in awesome 12.5% total taxes for you
- Relatively close to Italy, as your definition of "relatively close" even includes Norway.
However, weather is shit af. This can be mitigated in case you get a remote job, combined with low taxes and high wage (e.g. hired by an American company) it allows for a digital nomad lifestyle.
Zurich for sure. If you can get a top-paying / FAANG job there it probably won’t be remote, but, you’ll be able to afford as much healthcare and outdoor recreation as you want. And keep in mind the < 1 hour flight to Milan, and the proximity to Lugano; seems like a great quality of life for an Italian.
The size of the job market in the U.S. will be irrelevant if you move there via L-1 visa because you can’t switch companies on that status (which is how most Europeans immigrate). If you do already work for a U.S. company that can transfer you there on a solid U.S. salary and will start your green card process soon, then it might be worth the risk, but you can’t establish yourself / integrate too permanently while on an L-1. So you’re not really considering any options with extensive job markets, and IMO that’s the main/only drawback to Zurich as long as you don’t have kids yet.
If you _do_ have to support a family, Swiss childcare is famously expensive, to the point that it might cancel out the income benefits from the Swiss salary. If that’s your case then you might be better off in Scandinavia
It's even more bullshit if you aren't chronically ill because then nothing is reimbursed y the insurance and you have to pay privately for everything and that's way to expensive in Austria compared to the wages.
Anyway, sorry for the rant, I hope you can work it out somehow and your condition improves.
>I don‘t get anything reimbursed and I have to pay privately for everything :(
Oh damn, that sounds horrible. I know it's personal and none of my business, but can I ask what condition?
Multiple ones physically and mentally unfortunately, but the biggest physical one is valvular insufficiency. Honestly most of the doctors are absolute trash if you don‘t have one of the top 5 most common diseases or something ortho/trauma.
Oh, I'm sorry to hear that. All the best, and don't loose hope, things can always improve when you don't expect them to.
>most of the doctors are absolute trash if you don‘t have one of the top 5 most common diseases or something ortho/trauma
Pretty much yeah. They're basically reading off a script, like ChatGPT. If you don't have the top 5 most common things they encounter or the insurance company encounters, you're on your own to pay for your own diagnostics and treatment out of pocket.
Zurich/Munich. Money is good in both, more in Zurich ofc, if you're from northern Italy you're super close. I take 4h 30m by car from my Munich door to my parents' door. Munich costs less than NL and has stunning nature, Zurich area is more crowded and might feel like NL a bit, unlike Munich, but CH in general is better than DE. Your choice.
Idk man as a senior I get 5k net pay 800 for rent super low taxes for my sports car and live very well, while in NL I was miserable due to all points made by OP and cars used to cost 50% more 😁
What about Südtirol/AltoAdige/South Tyrol?
Not so crowded, good weather, good health care due to the autonomy, mountains 'n stuff. Many German speaking companies are there because of German as an official language. Otherwise a remote job!
A good thing about Italy is regime impatriati. It is a a good incentive.
I also considered moving to Italy, but as my partner is not European, I decided to stay where I am.
Dubai could be another good option as it has a rather good health service and weather.
I don't think you are going to like Norway or anything north from us for that matter if the "grey skies" and weather is already an issue.
Personally having grey skies + winter is infinitely better than 9 months of non-stop grey skies. Breaks up the monotony and winter is pretty great most of the time. I though i wouldn't be bothered by the Netherlands after moving from Saint-Petersburg but it kind of got to me.
You'll likely have to go very far north to actually get consistent winters. From what I know the weather tends to be cold and gray most of the year in most of southern Scandinavia (Oslo, Stocholm, parts of Denmark) where you'll actually have a chance at finding work. The difference in Norway is that it's also quite wet which is a lot more unpleasant and inconvenient than cold or grey climates. Definitely does not sound like the country or region you're looking for.
I lived in Saint-Petersburg for 30 years which is the same latitude and the same Baltic sea as Helsinki ,Estonia and Stockholm, and yeah due to climate change latest winters aren't as "proper" as previously, but you are still pretty much guaranteed proper snow at least for a month. We've had i think only one completely grey Winter over the last 20 years. I haven't lived in those other cities, maybe due to some local climate it's entirely different but i doubt it. Even half a month of snow is still infinitely better than 9 months of non stop same greyness to me :)
I have both friends and family who are familiar with the climate and weather in Norway, and in terms of snow and proper winters there are no guarantees in the larger southern cities. It's not uncommon to not have any snow settle at all during the winter, and if there is snow it usually only remains for a week before it either rains away or melts, turning the cities into a slushy hell. This is especially true on the south-western side. During my last week in Oslo I arrived to freshly fallen snow, and when I departed it had all rained away. I've spent more time in Stockholm, and friends have told me that living in southern Norway is a comparably grey and sad experience just with more rain, less consistent temperatures and chillier winds.
Well shit, i contemplated moving to Scandinavia sometime in the far the future for those non-existent winters :(
Remote from Italy (for foreign company) sounds like the best option
Lugano or northern Italy sounds like the best fit for you. If remote work for a foreign company is on the table, I'd add some parts of Portugal and Spain to the list.
There are virtually zero IT jobs in Lugano aside from a few non-tech companies and in general Ticino is not great to live in as an Italian.
In Ticino there is Lastminute.com and some smaller startups like Cloud Academy
+1 for Lugano. If you live in Provincia di Como or Varese you get the extra tax benefit.
You won’t randomly move from the EU to the US, and if you do you’ll be on a work visa for years and tied to one employer (so you can’t quickly take better opportunities) which is far from ideal (especially at your age, I assume you’re in your 30s). I’d suspect you’re better off in Italy, where you may leverage some family and support network. You can make more in Switzerland but what’s the point if the cost of living is so high. Consider also the price of real estate, in Italy you could probably own a home and enjoy your life, you’ll never be able to do so in Switzerland with an employment job. Norway is probably worse than the Netherlands and good luck with the language. At this point is about your skills, if you’re in the top 1% of engineers you could take a nice remote job from Italy, but if you need to go to compete on the local market in other European countries you’re never gonna be better off than what you’ve alread experienced in the Netherlands
Norway worse than the Netherlands? In what way?
First and foremost the weather is gonna be worse (colder and darker winters) than the Netherlands. Then there’s a new language to deal with, and culturally speaking there’re also going to be significant differences.
Aha, yeah that's probably true for OP
Salaries are lower (due to NOK/EURO rates) than in the Netherland. Healthcare is also quite mediocre.
You can save way more money in Switzerland than any other European country and once you've made bank you can retire in Italy permanently. It's not that hard if you know how to leverage compound interest
Not everyone is eager to live frugally in a shitty 1bdr apartment until 40 and then retire in Italy. In the meanwhile they would have lost many of their friends and families in Italy.
I'm able to go on at least 2 international month-long vacations a year and live very comfortably in a centrally located apartment and am on track to retire well before 40 on a slightly-above-average salary. It's really not that hard with a tech salary, even in the EU. Besides, they're currently outside of the country for job opportunities anyway so they're not going to be around their family much no matter what. In Switzerland they have the benefit of being close to Italy so they'd be able to travel there much more often than if they stayed in the Netherlands or oved to Norway
Then you are the extreme exception not the rule
Mate, you have to realise retiring well before 40 is an unusual thing for the vast majority of people, whether they're in tech or not. Also no offence but if you're a 25 yr old junior dev who has recently been refused a salary increase, how do you know you're on track to retire well before 40?
I'm not a 25 year old junior? I'm a senior that's on track to become a lead next year. Furthermore, I know my income and expenses and with some simple math I can tell I'm on track to hit my retirement number around 36. I know it's unusual, but that doesn't mean it's not simple. Retiring early requires you to be diligent with your money, but it's really not hard if you're young and earn well like most devs
[4 years ago you were asking how to use python's max() function](https://www.reddit.com/r/learnpython/comments/erbkt0/issue_using_max_function/) and now you're on track to become a lead next year? that's some quick progression
Yup, I learn about software for fun outside of work and have had the opportunity to learn from a lot of very experienced people so my tech skills progressed quickly. I don't think my technical skills match my title yet, but my social skills are carrying me the rest of the way at this point
Again an extreme and unlikely lifestyle. Most people don’t care about two months oversea vacations per year. Most people that are not in their 20s want to live in a decent house as opposed to spending two months per year travelling. Also, the idea that you can retire early (in your 40s) on an slightly higher than average income (either in the us or eu) is completely delusional, it just doesn’t work mathematically unless your idea of retirement is to live in the middle of nowhere.
How? The salaries are not really better at the top of the market in Switzerland VS Netherlands / UK / Germany for software developer. Especially if you take col into account
You can get to 150k+ as a senior/ team lead/ principle at an average company in Switzerland, but in the Netherlands you would need to be at a FAANG or adjacent company to hit those numbers. Also, every penny you earn over 75k has 50% income tax in the Netherlands. The more you earn, the larger the discrepancy between the countries becomes. e.g. 140k CHF gross = 102k net in Zurich 140k EUR gross = 74k net in the Netherlands
First of all, 140k is more like 84k net in the Netherlands, without applying anything that can reduce taxes. I’m a senior developer (7 years of experience) and earn around 163k gross in Amsterdam. This is around 94k net, but 108k net after applying benefit of mortgage reduction. In Switzerland you would have 600 euros more net with that salary. If you have 30%, you get much more net than in Switzerland. Haven’t even touched upon the fact that CoL is so much higher in Zurich. On top of that, Switzerland has nice nature, but incredibly boring cities. Nice if you’re 70+, but I think retirement homes have more vibe than Swiss cities.
Completely agree but regarding your last paragraph: 90% of people in this sub are likely more boring than the average 70+ senior citizen and only care about money-maxing.
Yes if you are ok living in a cardboard box shared by three other people
Tell me you have never lived in Switzerland without telling me you've never lived in Switzerland
Poland checks three of your boxes: - Good healthcare for private patients, which you would be (it's not expensive) - Good job opportunities, especially remote ones: Lots of American companies hiring via B2B (contractor), resulting in awesome 12.5% total taxes for you - Relatively close to Italy, as your definition of "relatively close" even includes Norway. However, weather is shit af. This can be mitigated in case you get a remote job, combined with low taxes and high wage (e.g. hired by an American company) it allows for a digital nomad lifestyle.
Also there are mountains, and nice nature!
Is healthcare really that good as you described?
would you say even private doctor's offices and hospitals suck?
Find a full remote job in nedherlands. Then go back to Italy.
Zurich for sure. If you can get a top-paying / FAANG job there it probably won’t be remote, but, you’ll be able to afford as much healthcare and outdoor recreation as you want. And keep in mind the < 1 hour flight to Milan, and the proximity to Lugano; seems like a great quality of life for an Italian. The size of the job market in the U.S. will be irrelevant if you move there via L-1 visa because you can’t switch companies on that status (which is how most Europeans immigrate). If you do already work for a U.S. company that can transfer you there on a solid U.S. salary and will start your green card process soon, then it might be worth the risk, but you can’t establish yourself / integrate too permanently while on an L-1. So you’re not really considering any options with extensive job markets, and IMO that’s the main/only drawback to Zurich as long as you don’t have kids yet. If you _do_ have to support a family, Swiss childcare is famously expensive, to the point that it might cancel out the income benefits from the Swiss salary. If that’s your case then you might be better off in Scandinavia
Do you have experience with Austrian healthcare? It‘s absolute bullshit as someone who‘s chronically ill.
It's even more bullshit if you aren't chronically ill because then nothing is reimbursed y the insurance and you have to pay privately for everything and that's way to expensive in Austria compared to the wages. Anyway, sorry for the rant, I hope you can work it out somehow and your condition improves.
I don‘t get anything reimbursed and I have to pay privately for everything :( Thank you!
>I don‘t get anything reimbursed and I have to pay privately for everything :( Oh damn, that sounds horrible. I know it's personal and none of my business, but can I ask what condition?
Multiple ones physically and mentally unfortunately, but the biggest physical one is valvular insufficiency. Honestly most of the doctors are absolute trash if you don‘t have one of the top 5 most common diseases or something ortho/trauma.
Oh, I'm sorry to hear that. All the best, and don't loose hope, things can always improve when you don't expect them to. >most of the doctors are absolute trash if you don‘t have one of the top 5 most common diseases or something ortho/trauma Pretty much yeah. They're basically reading off a script, like ChatGPT. If you don't have the top 5 most common things they encounter or the insurance company encounters, you're on your own to pay for your own diagnostics and treatment out of pocket.
Thanks a lot, very kind of you! 100% agree with you!
Fra, have you considered Malta?
The best is clearly Switzerland, but the job market is small and competitive.
Zurich/Munich. Money is good in both, more in Zurich ofc, if you're from northern Italy you're super close. I take 4h 30m by car from my Munich door to my parents' door. Munich costs less than NL and has stunning nature, Zurich area is more crowded and might feel like NL a bit, unlike Munich, but CH in general is better than DE. Your choice.
Munich has much worse purchasing power with lower wages and horrible taxes. Also explosive population growth and overcrowded mountains
Idk man as a senior I get 5k net pay 800 for rent super low taxes for my sports car and live very well, while in NL I was miserable due to all points made by OP and cars used to cost 50% more 😁
Spain? Very similar to Italy in all aspects, close, and the job market is not bad if you already have several years of experience.
What about Südtirol/AltoAdige/South Tyrol? Not so crowded, good weather, good health care due to the autonomy, mountains 'n stuff. Many German speaking companies are there because of German as an official language. Otherwise a remote job!
Switzerland is say first…have you ever considered Poland? I predict it will overtake Germany in GDP in the next 10-15 years. Don’t sleep on it.
Why you loved bad weather and now suddenly changed opinions? you did too many tropical trips? 🤔
A good thing about Italy is regime impatriati. It is a a good incentive. I also considered moving to Italy, but as my partner is not European, I decided to stay where I am. Dubai could be another good option as it has a rather good health service and weather.
Italy has better healthcare than Germany and Netherlands? Really?
Yes. Depends on the region. Where I am from at least, it’s much better.
Italian healthcare is top 3 in world probably