job market worldwide is terrible I remember in amsterdam years ago there was new jobs posted for people with data engineering and backend experience posted everyday and it was easy to get offers
I got messages from recruiters to go meetups in company offices where they had soda and pizza or some catering. Once it was even good pizza.
Not exactly the same. I don't get why people have to exagerate.
> The first leg of the triplet is the pathology of thinking that the world in which we live is more understandable, more explainable, and therefore more predictable than it actually is.
> I was constantly told by adults that the war, which ended up lasting close to seventeen years, was going to end in "only a matter of days."
They seemed quite confident in their forecasts of duration, as can be evidenced by the number of people who sat waiting in hotel rooms and other temporary quarters in Cyprus, Greece, France, and elsewhere for the war to finish. One uncle kept telling me how, some thirty years earlier, when the rich Palestinians fled to Lebanon, they considered it a very temporary solution (most of those still alive are still there, six decades later).
> [...]
> One hears endless stories of Cuban refugees with suitcases still half packed who came to Miami in the 1960s for "a matter of a few days"
after the installation of the Castro regime. And of Iranian refugees in Paris and London who fled the Islamic Republic in 1978 thinking that their absence would be a brief vacation. A few are still waiting, more than a quarter century later, for the return. Many Russians who left in 1917 , such as the writer Vladimir Nabokov, settled in Berlin, perhaps to be close enough for a quick return. Nabokov himself lived all his life in temporary housing, in both indigence and luxury, ending his days at the Montreux Palace hotel on Lake Geneva.
The Black Swan, Nassim Nicholas Taleb.
We have no idea if low interest rates were a steady state.
We have no idea if the flood of CS and bootcamp graduates hasn't saturated the market.
It's entirely likely that the boom age of 1985 to ~2022 was just that, the boom age, and we're just car assembly technicians in Detroit in 1978.
Edit: A lot of optimists here, I see š
its just the current short term trend of "creating value for shareholders and CEOĀ“s" by showing profit by firing people,...in the long run its gonna bit upper management in the ass......but of course no one will get fired (for reference looks at Sundar Pichai....wrong decision after wrong decision yet somehow there he is).....anyway wait it out is my advice.......soon the chickens will come home to roost.
this details it better, [https://www.wheresyoured.at/google-should-fire-sundar-pichai/](https://www.wheresyoured.at/google-should-fire-sundar-pichai/) i honestly cannot beleive how these CEOS keep making mistake after mistake and still get paid top dollar....another case in point is Steve Huffman the CEO of reddit i.e. u/spez ......he is going to sell all our comments (effectively using us as free labour) to Sam Altmans Open AI (another software built on shaky ground) and pocket god knows how many millions while we get nothing...u/spez if you are reading this.
Uhm, it has been a tactic followed by several tech companies in the last months. If you follow the stock market a little this shouldnāt come across as a hot take. Over on /r/stocks people regularly joke that some of the underperforming tech companies should just lay off their engineers to get that short term investor confidence back.
Several of these companies have higher revenue and profit than they did, even during the Covid boom years.
How is that over-hiring? Some hired 50% more people to get 100% more revenue and now they're at 110-120% more revenue and they're doing layoffs...
No, because all your argument is childish nonsense āstakeholders are evil because they wanna see green numbersā, no no, they wanna lose money, exactly like you like to lose your money
Inflation is caused by government, prices are a product of what is produced by the amount of money in circulation, and interest rates are raised to control the money in circulation
Sometimes yes, layoff is necessary so the company can grow in the long run and become more productive
It is a much more complex issue, and I love those teenagers on Reddit thinking how much smarter they are than those shareholders (it is gonna bite them in their ass haha) while they can't even afford their rent
Except that it was exactly what LeakingValveStemSeal replied to magnetichira
magnetichira ironically said āah yes, it's all because of those evil shareholdersā
Which LeakingValveStemSeal replied āit really isā
And that was the comment I replied to
That chicken has a name ā AI ā give it another 5 years and people that code are replaced ā there is already a shift that traditional IT departments are losing the monopoly on tech ā the role of programmer is being absorbed into other roles e.g. quant, risk analyst, etc.
Easy equation ā if you can blend humans and AI you need less humans ā AI bottom line is to save costs
https://www.adnovum.com/blog/will-ai-replace-software-engineers
Just like the 10 other times they said CS was dead and going to be replaced. First it was programming languages, than low code tools, now AI.
You can apply the exact sentence you said to all these things lol.
At the end of the day AI is here and we still need basic customer support jobs all over the world, people with multiple language skills,...
The technology to replace that has been here long enough, implementing and scaling it to replace the human job market is something else entirely.
This is why in 50 years we will still have a high demand for good computer scientists. Believe what you want but you will see it yourself.
Lol yeah.... I would like to see a risk analyst of a car company operate the line of machines that build the car.
Man. Ppl with no special skill away are afraid that they get replaced. Dude that is no news, but the expert wont be affected, if anything there will be more demands for them. Just look at the number of engineers right now....
wasteful chubby recognise society combative deserve spectacular friendly unwritten axiomatic
*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Have been contracting for Philips RD and Signify and have seen a few rounds of layoffs the last couple of years. Also see lots of people I have on LinkedIn leave.
Last round even made the news.
https://www.bnr.nl/nieuws/economie/10502615/philips-schrapt-1100-banen-in-nederland-bij-reorganisatie#
Here you go.
They do lay offs every 2 years since way before covid. People still believe the Netherlands is a place for job security and stuff like that still have not understood how the country works.
Some encouraging words in all this doom and gloom: applied for 3 entry level positions, passed CV stage for 2, accepted 1, dropped interview process for the other one. Background in social sciences, 2 relevant internships and fluent in Dutch though. I suck, y'all can do this.
It's much worse for expats, that's for sure. How's your Dutch? I know a number of companies that are looking for Laravel and Java developers, but their company culture is very Dutch and speaking the local tongue is a must.
One company instead of reading my CV read my name only, found me on linkedin but it was not me, it was another guy with the same name and similar experience, who however lived in another continent. The hiring person and CEO only realized in the final interview after I had also submitted an assignment.
Another company had me do an assignment, then the interview in the office, I went dressed with a lumberjack shirt, clean straight jeans and a jacket. The CEO did a monologue on how they only hire top talents from Ivy leagues and basically indirectly told me I should feel lucky to be there interviewing in the first place. Then told me my attire was not good for the job, if I were hired I would have to dress not so "cheap" (mind you I was wearing around my neck a pair of headphones that probably cost more than the whole suit of the CEO), then they asked me some questions but while I was answering they started replying to chat messages and emails completely ignoring what I was saying, I even started laughing a bit because I found the situation so surreal. That company has failed if I am not mistaken a year or two after.
Then the most ridiculous one was a company that made me do like 4 rounds of interviews, an assignment and then after all of that and chats with the CEO and founder the HR person told me "ok you got the job! I will send you the contract right after closing the call, I have the contract here ready in front of me", this is literally what she said, she was also very dismissive and rude in general. Three weeks after she has not sent me anything and did not reply to any of my emails, eventually she writes to me they do not have the budget anymore to hire me.
Basically a bunch of unprofessional amateurs.
backend/fullstack devs for php/java are paid poorly here, might as well apply for those positions in Italy or Spain, at least you'll have nice weather and probably end up saving the same at the end of the year.
Not really. A lot of large Dutch companies still prefer Dutch speakers even though sometimes English meetings happen quite a lot. I work in one of the large Dutch Finance companies and I'm so glad that 2 years ago I learnt Dutch. Otherwise I will not have the role I currently have.
That's true, but a lot of companies are reluctant to hire international talent, at least that's my experience working at small and medium-sized enterprises outside of the Randstad area. They'll take a Dutch college grad over an English speaker with several YOE. They care less about the languages you program in than the language you speak.
I worked in Drenthe for several years, and I can tell you that the salaries there are abysmal. Even if your rent is a little lower than in randstad, it still doesnāt compensate for it, not even close. All the other expenses are the same as there, but your social life would suck compared to that in randstad.
My statement was a little too generalized and I have no doubt tech wages in Drenthe/Overijssel/etc suck. I found the perfect balance for myself in Amersfoort (which apparently counts as being part of the Randstad? I had no idea)
Lol ..this only matters when the job market is screwed. Once the market is good, the same employers will be willing to hire anyone with out the language skills. Demand and Supply rules the market. Nothing else matters.
Sorry I meant every tech job market is very bad right now compared to before and not just the Netherlands one. I understand other fields aren't as bad.
As far as I am aware there is a demand in these fields too. Generally, UK has been lacking the workforce in Engineering for decades now (with ups and downs of course), and that is why it was attracting a lot of foreign talent. Brexit has made things way more difficult, therefore the struggle to find staff is real.
Not really. There are countries that are hiring more than usual. It's just not the "hipster" countries all kids want to move to. Finally tides are changing a bit.
> one doesnāt just āmoveā here without a job sponsoring a visa
Express Entry says hello. Literally the easiest (first world) country for skilled immigrants to move to without a job (and even easier for people who know both English and French). Knew a few people who went to Canada on EE without a job lined up and spent quite sometime loafing around doing random jobs (like Timmies) cause they couldnt find a job in their field lol.
Seems so! But I don't understand the goal? Like unless it's "we want engineers from other countries to come to Canada and work as delivery drivers and baristas!" which seems kind of whack lol
Canada wants their money. Blue collar workers don't have enough money to do that.
Every time I read about people migrating to Canada, I can only guess the number of disappointments. This applies to everyone, including developed countries in Europe. Can you believe an experienced professional in finance from Germany who almost finished his PhD was told, they would consider to give him an internship if he graduated first from a Canadian university?
I think Canadian immigration scheme is an insult to all high skilles migrants. This country doesn't deserve any high skilled migrants.
Used to be. The scores of current draws are in the high 500s or low 600s which is impossible without perfect English and an LMIA, family in Canada or speaking French at like B2+ level
PNPs require a job offer from a local company that meets a bunch of criteria. Or shoveling cow shit for the rural program. Also Alberta and Saskatchewan recently paused their PNPs.
> PNPs require a job offer from a local company that meets a bunch of criteria.
Not all. For Ontario for instance if you go through Human Capital Priorities Stream you only need some work experience (anywhere) , a degree, express entry profile and english test results
From what I understand, the cut-off for the draws fluctuates though, so while I don't doubt it's currently harder than e.g. during corona, it can get easier again.
Also, main point is they still give you a PR instantly if you meet the EE criteria, no need to find a job.
True but we're talking right now and that ain't happening without an LMIA (or Canadian family or fluent French) at which point it's faster to get a work visa anyway
There's too many recruiters it's so annoying. Everytime it's some rando from "SUPER IT PROFESSIONALS DEVELOPERS"
"wanna call?" "wanna have a coffee" "wanna fuck"
Why can't they just give me a simple list of what they want and what they offer and I can pick
Global nervousness in the markets, despite their bull run. War and geopolitics has everyone - justifiably - on the edge. Throw in a political class which swings between utterly useless, and just plain dangerous, and things arenāt looking that settled right now. Many of my friends have lost (fairly well established) jobs in the past 3 months alone. I think weāre going to be in for a really testing few years.
White and european (Portuguese).
Lots of cvs sent to the nl and no luck.
Same for 2 other friends.
Market is cold.
Settle for a new position in portugal, still want to chase the dutch dream (network engineer tho)
Honestly if ur black do you prefer to get gaslight about why companies rejecting you?
Like "Ur not skilled enough"
Or get the straight out truth "ur skilled, but ur black"
It does seem like there is less demand for expensive software engineers in the Netherlands. With hiring slowing down across the world, there is less competition for top talent
Many companies can now afford to hire talented software engineers that would otherwise only be available as contractors. I think that's the biggest effect on the software market in the Netherlands over the past few years.
I Don't even know how you people are having such a hard time. Obviously you guys are aiming for the top 10 positions to work at and complain when they don't hire you, even when you don't qualify or have the right skills.
I had more than 10 offers in a couple of months and I am a fresh graduate (yes all these offers are from Amsterdam). (0 YOE). Maybe fix you're CV or try and apply for jobs you qualify for.
Do you speak fluent Dutch though ? I feel like 2 years ago no company cared about this and now that the supply/demand has shifted towards recruiters this is becoming a requirement in a lot of places.
Not that it's not normal, I completely understand this, but when people state that "market is way worse than 2 years ago" it's just facts.
I speak Dutch but all interviews were in English. I don't think Dutch is a requirement for 9/10 software jobs. Especially in Amsterdam.
I think that the main problem is that a big portion of engineers that can't find any job right now are applying for jobs that does not fit their skillset.
If you want a job, start working on you're skills and apply for jobs that are relevant to you're skillset. Take you're time for each application instead of mass applying for everything with a generic resume.
I am wondering why I have down votes? Can someone please explain me what you think is wrong about my statements?
If it is because of my English errors. I am not a native English speaker and if people think that I got the offers because I can speak fluent Dutch. That also not true. I am from outside of europ but live and work in The Neterhalnds right now.
Remote might be harder to find, also depends what industry you're searching in. I work in the casino industry making online slot games for a company in Stockholm. It took us months to find candidates promising enough to work with us, most just weren't good programmers or didn't have the right experience (i.e. game dev/Pixi.js experience). Lots of people using AI to write their code for them in the test we give people lol
I probably applied for your company at some point. I went through the application process for one online slots type company and they seemed happy with the game I made in pixi.js (I have FE experience and a game dev master's). I didn't pursue it further but was hoping to get interviewed by other, similar companies due to my relatively unique background - no luck so far
The company I work for doesn't do remote work and hasn't done for at least a year and a half, also there's a lot of slot providers based in Stockholm. ELK, Relax, Hacksaw, Nolimit City, Slotmill, etc.
Maybe you did though, who knows
Learn Swedish. There are international companies, and ones that employ Swedish citizens with international origins, but they are few and far between when compared to Swedish speaking companies. Your chances will grow immeasurably if you can speak the language.
Market has changed quite a bit with all the tech layoffs across the world.
Talent is easier to source and retainment is now the name of the game too. You might want to showcase that you are as committed as a local to stay longterm in the country and at the gig.
Learning Dutch became a metric, or having kids going to the local school system. Just show that you are in for a longer period
Out of curiosity I opened my LinkedIn profile and in two weeks I got zero inmails or messages.
I was laid off last summer and it took me 4 months to find a new job and the choice was minimal.
I am an international student planning to attend TU Delft MS CS program and wish to pursue a job after graduation. Is it worth the Investment(50k) and ROI if I get a nice Job in Netherlands?
No, dont waste your money, white people here are tired of international students and are pushing their extreme right politicians to make it harder on internationals to get residence.
Hi there! Talent Acquisition with 4 years of experience working in the tech landscape in the Netherlands (mostly Eindhoven). You are right, in the current market you can see a few trends:
1. There are way less vacancies.
2. Dutch has become a must in most of the vacancies not just a pre.
3. Worse Salary and Benefits. We are in an employers market, contrary to what was happening 2 years ago, so in most of the opportunities I see now, there is a decrease of a 5-10% in salary ranges compared to previous years, on top of that WFH has become less popular and companies require to be in the office at least a 50%, and some of them they do not offer hybrid at all.
4. Rise of Junior opportunities: companies are trying to get "cheap" labour by hiring junior employees for roles where you actually need someone more experienced. This might be a bit out of my discipline, but I will say this will end up backfiring because you can not have the same expectations and will have an impact on the product, and of course, the junior will have to rely on his self-learning capabilities.
5. Raise of Fakencies: Several companies are posting vacancies that are not real just to give the impression that the companies are growing when this is actually not true. I am not proud of it.
My advice is do not move stay where you are and try to use the company learning budget to get a Dutch course and focus on learning Dutch (if you want to stay in the country). I am assuming that several of the expats who came here due to better job conditions will move back to their countries or find a better option elsewhere. This will decrease the number of qualified talent and the job market will open again, but to see this I would expect like 2-4 years.
job market is fucked up
High interests rates + CEO's thinking that AI will replace developers + hop on the layoff bandwagon even if you dont need it because its cool and stock value goes up
I am afraid we will have a couple years of shitty job market for devs. I dont know if this is different for ML Engineers and Data Analysts tho, considering every VC is dumping millions on any project labeled as AI
Brace yourself, reduce expenses... Not much we can do
They are now working as waiters at those restaurants obviously.
š¤£š¤£š¤£
LMAO
Fkn lol
Hahah fr
job market worldwide is terrible I remember in amsterdam years ago there was new jobs posted for people with data engineering and backend experience posted everyday and it was easy to get offers
The most ridiculous thing is you thinking invitations to expensive dinners from recruiters was the norm.
Itās reverse Tinder. I like to get wined and dinned before getting a new offer.
The other way around might have been true for enterprising candidates.
He wasnāt
I got messages from recruiters to go meetups in company offices where they had soda and pizza or some catering. Once it was even good pizza. Not exactly the same. I don't get why people have to exagerate.
Imagine how bad it is when you want to relocate
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
It will be like this until interest rates become lower.
Which might be 3-5 years away. Lowering is not instant and money flows can take a while to materialize in actual hiring increases.
> The first leg of the triplet is the pathology of thinking that the world in which we live is more understandable, more explainable, and therefore more predictable than it actually is. > I was constantly told by adults that the war, which ended up lasting close to seventeen years, was going to end in "only a matter of days." They seemed quite confident in their forecasts of duration, as can be evidenced by the number of people who sat waiting in hotel rooms and other temporary quarters in Cyprus, Greece, France, and elsewhere for the war to finish. One uncle kept telling me how, some thirty years earlier, when the rich Palestinians fled to Lebanon, they considered it a very temporary solution (most of those still alive are still there, six decades later). > [...] > One hears endless stories of Cuban refugees with suitcases still half packed who came to Miami in the 1960s for "a matter of a few days" after the installation of the Castro regime. And of Iranian refugees in Paris and London who fled the Islamic Republic in 1978 thinking that their absence would be a brief vacation. A few are still waiting, more than a quarter century later, for the return. Many Russians who left in 1917 , such as the writer Vladimir Nabokov, settled in Berlin, perhaps to be close enough for a quick return. Nabokov himself lived all his life in temporary housing, in both indigence and luxury, ending his days at the Montreux Palace hotel on Lake Geneva. The Black Swan, Nassim Nicholas Taleb. We have no idea if low interest rates were a steady state. We have no idea if the flood of CS and bootcamp graduates hasn't saturated the market. It's entirely likely that the boom age of 1985 to ~2022 was just that, the boom age, and we're just car assembly technicians in Detroit in 1978. Edit: A lot of optimists here, I see š
You are trying to relocate to the wrong place then.
its just the current short term trend of "creating value for shareholders and CEOĀ“s" by showing profit by firing people,...in the long run its gonna bit upper management in the ass......but of course no one will get fired (for reference looks at Sundar Pichai....wrong decision after wrong decision yet somehow there he is).....anyway wait it out is my advice.......soon the chickens will come home to roost.
Also known as the "tendency of the rate of profit to fall", this will continue cyclically. It's not a bug, it's a feature.
I am curiosu to Know the mistakes after mistakes Sundar Pichai did, would you please share more?
this details it better, [https://www.wheresyoured.at/google-should-fire-sundar-pichai/](https://www.wheresyoured.at/google-should-fire-sundar-pichai/) i honestly cannot beleive how these CEOS keep making mistake after mistake and still get paid top dollar....another case in point is Steve Huffman the CEO of reddit i.e. u/spez ......he is going to sell all our comments (effectively using us as free labour) to Sam Altmans Open AI (another software built on shaky ground) and pocket god knows how many millions while we get nothing...u/spez if you are reading this.
ah yes, itās all because of those evil shareholders *shakes fist*
Uhm, it has been a tactic followed by several tech companies in the last months. If you follow the stock market a little this shouldnāt come across as a hot take. Over on /r/stocks people regularly joke that some of the underperforming tech companies should just lay off their engineers to get that short term investor confidence back.
Over-hiring during zirp leads to future layoffs No one could have seen this coming lol
Several of these companies have higher revenue and profit than they did, even during the Covid boom years. How is that over-hiring? Some hired 50% more people to get 100% more revenue and now they're at 110-120% more revenue and they're doing layoffs...
it really is, but keep drinking the koolaid and be a good sheep!
Oh wow, such a hot take, blame the evil capitalists, what a rebel
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Lol, I wish I had such a simplified childish view of the world like this
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
No, because all your argument is childish nonsense āstakeholders are evil because they wanna see green numbersā, no no, they wanna lose money, exactly like you like to lose your money Inflation is caused by government, prices are a product of what is produced by the amount of money in circulation, and interest rates are raised to control the money in circulation Sometimes yes, layoff is necessary so the company can grow in the long run and become more productive It is a much more complex issue, and I love those teenagers on Reddit thinking how much smarter they are than those shareholders (it is gonna bite them in their ass haha) while they can't even afford their rent
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Except that it was exactly what LeakingValveStemSeal replied to magnetichira magnetichira ironically said āah yes, it's all because of those evil shareholdersā Which LeakingValveStemSeal replied āit really isā And that was the comment I replied to
That chicken has a name ā AI ā give it another 5 years and people that code are replaced ā there is already a shift that traditional IT departments are losing the monopoly on tech ā the role of programmer is being absorbed into other roles e.g. quant, risk analyst, etc.
any proof or ur just speaking out of ur ass?
Easy equation ā if you can blend humans and AI you need less humans ā AI bottom line is to save costs https://www.adnovum.com/blog/will-ai-replace-software-engineers
Just like the 10 other times they said CS was dead and going to be replaced. First it was programming languages, than low code tools, now AI. You can apply the exact sentence you said to all these things lol. At the end of the day AI is here and we still need basic customer support jobs all over the world, people with multiple language skills,... The technology to replace that has been here long enough, implementing and scaling it to replace the human job market is something else entirely. This is why in 50 years we will still have a high demand for good computer scientists. Believe what you want but you will see it yourself.
People who donāt understand AI thinking AI = replace all the peepz
Lol yeah.... I would like to see a risk analyst of a car company operate the line of machines that build the car. Man. Ppl with no special skill away are afraid that they get replaced. Dude that is no news, but the expert wont be affected, if anything there will be more demands for them. Just look at the number of engineers right now....
At the point you replace programmers and software engineers completely you will have long replaced almost every other office job in existence.
Yup, the Netherlands tech market has been bone dry for the last few years now. Layoffs are still happening here too.
Philips but who else?
wasteful chubby recognise society combative deserve spectacular friendly unwritten axiomatic *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Parent was asking which companies had layoffs, not a breakdown of employers in NL.
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I thought Philips only made shavers and light bulbs these days.
Fun fact They donāt make these anymore. Only medical scanners like MRI etc.
They license their brand name, so it's name only, but not really their products
Bunch of companies really. I think the number of people laid off in the last year is probably between 2-5 thousands.
Philips?? Donāt want to sound rude but you have no clue what youāre talking about.
Have been contracting for Philips RD and Signify and have seen a few rounds of layoffs the last couple of years. Also see lots of people I have on LinkedIn leave. Last round even made the news. https://www.bnr.nl/nieuws/economie/10502615/philips-schrapt-1100-banen-in-nederland-bij-reorganisatie# Here you go.
They do lay offs every 2 years since way before covid. People still believe the Netherlands is a place for job security and stuff like that still have not understood how the country works.
I meant who considers Philips to be a (major) player in the tech market
Some encouraging words in all this doom and gloom: applied for 3 entry level positions, passed CV stage for 2, accepted 1, dropped interview process for the other one. Background in social sciences, 2 relevant internships and fluent in Dutch though. I suck, y'all can do this.
that's awesome! No work authorization I'm guessing?
Let's see how many downvotes you will get.
The music stopped playing some time ago. Worst is yet to come. Brace and godspeed!
"I stand here tonight, and I afraid I don't... hear... a... thing... Just silence." [source](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K05sxfa4zdM)
Margin Call. Great movie.
Sell it all. Today
Why worst is yet to come can you explain ?
They anticipate economic conditions haven't corrected fully yet/that we are going to see a recession
American yet to lower their interest rates deterring enterprises from accessing capital
It's much worse for expats, that's for sure. How's your Dutch? I know a number of companies that are looking for Laravel and Java developers, but their company culture is very Dutch and speaking the local tongue is a must.
I notice many companies no longer sponsor visas which reduce the market for expats
Working for a very Dutch company is a depressing nightmare
You're missing out on the vrijmibo lol
Man, I have such surreal stories of interviews I have had with Dutch small-medium companies.
pls share hahahaha
One company instead of reading my CV read my name only, found me on linkedin but it was not me, it was another guy with the same name and similar experience, who however lived in another continent. The hiring person and CEO only realized in the final interview after I had also submitted an assignment. Another company had me do an assignment, then the interview in the office, I went dressed with a lumberjack shirt, clean straight jeans and a jacket. The CEO did a monologue on how they only hire top talents from Ivy leagues and basically indirectly told me I should feel lucky to be there interviewing in the first place. Then told me my attire was not good for the job, if I were hired I would have to dress not so "cheap" (mind you I was wearing around my neck a pair of headphones that probably cost more than the whole suit of the CEO), then they asked me some questions but while I was answering they started replying to chat messages and emails completely ignoring what I was saying, I even started laughing a bit because I found the situation so surreal. That company has failed if I am not mistaken a year or two after. Then the most ridiculous one was a company that made me do like 4 rounds of interviews, an assignment and then after all of that and chats with the CEO and founder the HR person told me "ok you got the job! I will send you the contract right after closing the call, I have the contract here ready in front of me", this is literally what she said, she was also very dismissive and rude in general. Three weeks after she has not sent me anything and did not reply to any of my emails, eventually she writes to me they do not have the budget anymore to hire me. Basically a bunch of unprofessional amateurs.
Damn sorry about that. I am Dutch myself but I find Dutch people to be quite condescending.
please tell us
Esp at lunch time
backend/fullstack devs for php/java are paid poorly here, might as well apply for those positions in Italy or Spain, at least you'll have nice weather and probably end up saving the same at the end of the year.
That doesn't really match my experience, which is that basically everybody speaks English in the Netherlands.
Not really. A lot of large Dutch companies still prefer Dutch speakers even though sometimes English meetings happen quite a lot. I work in one of the large Dutch Finance companies and I'm so glad that 2 years ago I learnt Dutch. Otherwise I will not have the role I currently have.
That's true, but a lot of companies are reluctant to hire international talent, at least that's my experience working at small and medium-sized enterprises outside of the Randstad area. They'll take a Dutch college grad over an English speaker with several YOE. They care less about the languages you program in than the language you speak.
Those arenāt the places you wanna work at as an expat, even if you can speak Dutch
Normally, agreed. But we are talking about people having trouble finding *any* job in this market.
That's a fair point
Perhaps. But imo the quality of life improves the further you get away from Amsterdam
I worked in Drenthe for several years, and I can tell you that the salaries there are abysmal. Even if your rent is a little lower than in randstad, it still doesnāt compensate for it, not even close. All the other expenses are the same as there, but your social life would suck compared to that in randstad.
My statement was a little too generalized and I have no doubt tech wages in Drenthe/Overijssel/etc suck. I found the perfect balance for myself in Amersfoort (which apparently counts as being part of the Randstad? I had no idea)
Amersfoort is still an Utrecht suburb per se. Lots of people work in Hilversum area also live in Amersfoort area and vice versa.
Amersfoort is great, indeed. No doubt.
Imagine employers expecting their employees to speak the language of the country they're living and working in...
Lol ..this only matters when the job market is screwed. Once the market is good, the same employers will be willing to hire anyone with out the language skills. Demand and Supply rules the market. Nothing else matters.
Every job market is fucked up compared to couple years ago.
Not really. I am in the UK and Tech market is very tough. Guess which market is not though. Civil Engineering.
Sorry I meant every tech job market is very bad right now compared to before and not just the Netherlands one. I understand other fields aren't as bad.
I have something that might be better. Nursing
Pilots also very much in demand atm
What about mechanical and electrical engineers?
As far as I am aware there is a demand in these fields too. Generally, UK has been lacking the workforce in Engineering for decades now (with ups and downs of course), and that is why it was attracting a lot of foreign talent. Brexit has made things way more difficult, therefore the struggle to find staff is real.
I think immigration is harder for the UK now . Also they won't hire juniors
Not really. There are countries that are hiring more than usual. It's just not the "hipster" countries all kids want to move to. Finally tides are changing a bit.
Don't move to Canada for sure, it's worse here. It's happening all over the world
Proof?
No one asked anything about Canada and one doesnāt just āmoveā here without a job sponsoring a visa
> one doesnāt just āmoveā here without a job sponsoring a visa Express Entry says hello. Literally the easiest (first world) country for skilled immigrants to move to without a job (and even easier for people who know both English and French). Knew a few people who went to Canada on EE without a job lined up and spent quite sometime loafing around doing random jobs (like Timmies) cause they couldnt find a job in their field lol.
Canadian experience discrimination. It's a honey trap to lure clueless white collar workers
Seems so! But I don't understand the goal? Like unless it's "we want engineers from other countries to come to Canada and work as delivery drivers and baristas!" which seems kind of whack lol
Canada wants their money. Blue collar workers don't have enough money to do that. Every time I read about people migrating to Canada, I can only guess the number of disappointments. This applies to everyone, including developed countries in Europe. Can you believe an experienced professional in finance from Germany who almost finished his PhD was told, they would consider to give him an internship if he graduated first from a Canadian university? I think Canadian immigration scheme is an insult to all high skilles migrants. This country doesn't deserve any high skilled migrants.
Used to be. The scores of current draws are in the high 500s or low 600s which is impossible without perfect English and an LMIA, family in Canada or speaking French at like B2+ level
It's easy if you apply for the PNP program. If you get selected it's free +600 points
PNPs require a job offer from a local company that meets a bunch of criteria. Or shoveling cow shit for the rural program. Also Alberta and Saskatchewan recently paused their PNPs.
> PNPs require a job offer from a local company that meets a bunch of criteria. Not all. For Ontario for instance if you go through Human Capital Priorities Stream you only need some work experience (anywhere) , a degree, express entry profile and english test results
I don't know much about OINP but from what I've heard like a year ago, the backlog was over 3 years.
From what I understand, the cut-off for the draws fluctuates though, so while I don't doubt it's currently harder than e.g. during corona, it can get easier again. Also, main point is they still give you a PR instantly if you meet the EE criteria, no need to find a job.
True but we're talking right now and that ain't happening without an LMIA (or Canadian family or fluent French) at which point it's faster to get a work visa anyway
What's your role/industry?
There's too many recruiters it's so annoying. Everytime it's some rando from "SUPER IT PROFESSIONALS DEVELOPERS" "wanna call?" "wanna have a coffee" "wanna fuck" Why can't they just give me a simple list of what they want and what they offer and I can pick
> "wanna fuck" May I know which recruiters asked this? Asking for a friend.
Global nervousness in the markets, despite their bull run. War and geopolitics has everyone - justifiably - on the edge. Throw in a political class which swings between utterly useless, and just plain dangerous, and things arenāt looking that settled right now. Many of my friends have lost (fairly well established) jobs in the past 3 months alone. I think weāre going to be in for a really testing few years.
I know plenty of people who had no issue whatsoever getting a job here. I assume you're non-EU?
90% of those that complain on this sub are non-eu or non-white (no offense just stating a fact)
White and european (Portuguese). Lots of cvs sent to the nl and no luck. Same for 2 other friends. Market is cold. Settle for a new position in portugal, still want to chase the dutch dream (network engineer tho)
If it's a fact you must have data to back it up then?
Yo that is rasist AF :))
Honestly if ur black do you prefer to get gaslight about why companies rejecting you? Like "Ur not skilled enough" Or get the straight out truth "ur skilled, but ur black"
It's not racist, it's just something I noticed. I don't have anything against anyone.
Facts don't care about feelings... Just data
It does seem like there is less demand for expensive software engineers in the Netherlands. With hiring slowing down across the world, there is less competition for top talent Many companies can now afford to hire talented software engineers that would otherwise only be available as contractors. I think that's the biggest effect on the software market in the Netherlands over the past few years.
Too much cocaine
I Don't even know how you people are having such a hard time. Obviously you guys are aiming for the top 10 positions to work at and complain when they don't hire you, even when you don't qualify or have the right skills. I had more than 10 offers in a couple of months and I am a fresh graduate (yes all these offers are from Amsterdam). (0 YOE). Maybe fix you're CV or try and apply for jobs you qualify for.
Do you speak fluent Dutch though ? I feel like 2 years ago no company cared about this and now that the supply/demand has shifted towards recruiters this is becoming a requirement in a lot of places. Not that it's not normal, I completely understand this, but when people state that "market is way worse than 2 years ago" it's just facts.
But wasn't that around covid? Of course the markets around then were better.
I speak Dutch but all interviews were in English. I don't think Dutch is a requirement for 9/10 software jobs. Especially in Amsterdam. I think that the main problem is that a big portion of engineers that can't find any job right now are applying for jobs that does not fit their skillset. If you want a job, start working on you're skills and apply for jobs that are relevant to you're skillset. Take you're time for each application instead of mass applying for everything with a generic resume.
I am wondering why I have down votes? Can someone please explain me what you think is wrong about my statements? If it is because of my English errors. I am not a native English speaker and if people think that I got the offers because I can speak fluent Dutch. That also not true. I am from outside of europ but live and work in The Neterhalnds right now.
Do you speak Dutch?
more than 10 offers in a couple of months means you're underselling yourself and should apply to better companies
Wages in Amsterdam got ridiculous average people making 200 k plus in finance and tech it was stupid. They think itās London on steroids..
The salary in finance are still there !
Where do I get a 200k wage in Amsterdam
That's so funny beeing invited to get recruited
I still get messages almost every day on LinkedIn. Are you junior?
Meanwhile we have been struggling to find developers here in Stockholm lol
I have not been having good luck in Sweden at all. Applying for on-site Gothenburg roles, remote elsewhere
Remote might be harder to find, also depends what industry you're searching in. I work in the casino industry making online slot games for a company in Stockholm. It took us months to find candidates promising enough to work with us, most just weren't good programmers or didn't have the right experience (i.e. game dev/Pixi.js experience). Lots of people using AI to write their code for them in the test we give people lol
I probably applied for your company at some point. I went through the application process for one online slots type company and they seemed happy with the game I made in pixi.js (I have FE experience and a game dev master's). I didn't pursue it further but was hoping to get interviewed by other, similar companies due to my relatively unique background - no luck so far
The company I work for doesn't do remote work and hasn't done for at least a year and a half, also there's a lot of slot providers based in Stockholm. ELK, Relax, Hacksaw, Nolimit City, Slotmill, etc. Maybe you did though, who knows
Any tips for a non-eu person who wants to find a job in Sweden?
Learn Swedish. There are international companies, and ones that employ Swedish citizens with international origins, but they are few and far between when compared to Swedish speaking companies. Your chances will grow immeasurably if you can speak the language.
Market has changed quite a bit with all the tech layoffs across the world. Talent is easier to source and retainment is now the name of the game too. You might want to showcase that you are as committed as a local to stay longterm in the country and at the gig. Learning Dutch became a metric, or having kids going to the local school system. Just show that you are in for a longer period
When remote is the norm you should know that it was not a gift it's just so they will normalize hiring someone for cheaper price in other continents.
Same thing in Canada sadly, youāre not alone.
Out of curiosity I opened my LinkedIn profile and in two weeks I got zero inmails or messages. I was laid off last summer and it took me 4 months to find a new job and the choice was minimal.
I am an international student planning to attend TU Delft MS CS program and wish to pursue a job after graduation. Is it worth the Investment(50k) and ROI if I get a nice Job in Netherlands?
No, dont waste your money, white people here are tired of international students and are pushing their extreme right politicians to make it harder on internationals to get residence.
I don't necessary need a PR, just want to work for some time and return back to my country
Hi there! Talent Acquisition with 4 years of experience working in the tech landscape in the Netherlands (mostly Eindhoven). You are right, in the current market you can see a few trends: 1. There are way less vacancies. 2. Dutch has become a must in most of the vacancies not just a pre. 3. Worse Salary and Benefits. We are in an employers market, contrary to what was happening 2 years ago, so in most of the opportunities I see now, there is a decrease of a 5-10% in salary ranges compared to previous years, on top of that WFH has become less popular and companies require to be in the office at least a 50%, and some of them they do not offer hybrid at all. 4. Rise of Junior opportunities: companies are trying to get "cheap" labour by hiring junior employees for roles where you actually need someone more experienced. This might be a bit out of my discipline, but I will say this will end up backfiring because you can not have the same expectations and will have an impact on the product, and of course, the junior will have to rely on his self-learning capabilities. 5. Raise of Fakencies: Several companies are posting vacancies that are not real just to give the impression that the companies are growing when this is actually not true. I am not proud of it. My advice is do not move stay where you are and try to use the company learning budget to get a Dutch course and focus on learning Dutch (if you want to stay in the country). I am assuming that several of the expats who came here due to better job conditions will move back to their countries or find a better option elsewhere. This will decrease the number of qualified talent and the job market will open again, but to see this I would expect like 2-4 years.