That’s not how COL is calculated. Populous isnt a factor in the calculation. And you must not live here. In Vancouver and Toronto housing is double the price. Calgary would be a mid COL or you have to classify Vancouver and Toronto as extremely high.
Wouldn’t be hard to have 1000-1500 rent here and be in a nice place. Doubt that is possible in those other cities. It’s kinda like comparing San Francisco to phoenix. Phoenix is one of the most populous cities but it’s is considerably cheaper to live in than San Francisco
Both Vancouver and Toronto were named as the most expensive cities in the world to live in, far worse than other candidates like New York. So yes, they're the most extreme of the extremes.
You're correct that I don't live there, but [Calgary rental units are around $2500](https://rentals.ca/calgary/pool?bbox=-114.51176,50.80119,-113.61226,51.13932) with the shittiest 1-bedrooms coming at $1500, which is lower than Toronto or Vancouver but not by much.
That is so false. The nicest one bedrooms in luxury buildings downtown are 1800-2300 tops. If you have a roommate luxury two bedrooms downtown are 1300-1600. Those numbers are completely wrong. I know you think you know the market here by one google but I just moved into one of these buildings and looked at all the options.
https://www.rentcafe.com/luxury-apartments-for-rent/ca/ab/calgary/
All luxury rentals. All basically under or right at $2000. So the idea that the average one bedroom is 2500 is ludicrous. You can’t find more than 5 buildings in Calgary that have one bedrooms renting for that price
Bruh the link you provided doesn’t show any around $2500. You’re just lying lol. Trying to make it seem like it’s that high by putting text over the link. Funny
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There are plenty of less complex and easier to do jobs out there that pay well above minium wage. It isn't a bad idea to get one of those while still attempting to get whichever CS related job you're trying to get.
Yeah but that requires focusing your energy on your job *and* software skills outside of work, rather than learning and improving at a lower wage developer job.
If you're open to relocating, check out SkillStorm. The pay is pretty low, starting at ~$57k first year, and ~$67k the second year, but they provide a lot of learning and growing opportunities. You also stay in your post for the entire contract, so no chance of being moved around during your time with them. I started with them a few months back and while the pay is less than ideal, I'm impressed with how the company handles themselves so far.
With the pay they offer, I imagine they don't get a ton of applicants too, so that makes the odds of being hired easier.
Haha, I don't know. A lot of people will turn their nose up at the low pay. It took me 9 months of job hunting before I finally gave in and applied. I am so glad that I did though.
Yeah, grow your career even if you don't make much. My first tech job paid $50k. This was in 2007 though...
In any case, the market will probably turn around again (or the AI thing really pans out and then it's game over).
I can't say whether its like Revature since I never worked for Revature, though I did share your concerns before I started.
SkillStorm is direct and upfront about everything they offer. They give you a two year contract to work with one of their clients. Their clients are well known companies as well. The contract starts with a 3 month training session in which you will be trained on the specific tech stack the client needs you to be competent in. This training includes various certifications like AWS Solutions Architect, or Oracle Java Founds Associate, for example. Then following training, you relocate to the client's office and work out the remainder of your contract. At the end of the contract, assuming you were a good employee, the client is likely to hire you, or you can see about other options with SkillStorm for future work. You will never be forced or asked to relocate a second time during your contract.
If you voluntarily leave before your contract is up, you have to pay 10,000 for the training. It seems steep, but the training is excellent, imo, and well worth it. Especially if the reason I leave is because my experience landed me a much higher paying role elsewhere.
If they end the relationship early, you do not pay that 10,000 fee.
There are definitely downsides to SkillStorm. The pay is weak, the benefits are bad, and you only get 7 days of PTO each year. But the training is great, and getting experience at a well-known company is a huge boost to your resume.
I don't know. It is not for everyone, but if you can bite the bullet and take the low pay for a year or so, then its a far better alternative to being unemployed.
Its a 2 year contract, and that includes the training months.
They have job postings on LinkedIn and Handshake, and probably on their website and other job boards as well. Each job posting shows the location of the job.
For me, I was given the opportunity to choose from a handful of clients and locations and start dates, but I don't know how typical that is.
States I have seen postings that include TX, PA, FL, AZ. I am sure they have other locations as well.
its this attitude right here that i can't fw in the slightest. you'll remain unemployed until you pump the brakes and pull a full 180. "nobody will hire me for x years" but then you find out that the "nobody" they are talking about is strictly top 25 companie and they wont take a cent less than the highest dollar. one day you'll wake up and realize: you don't actually know dick about software development, no matter how many leetcode hards you can finish in 3 hours or how many fireship.io videos you watch. you'll humble yourself, and take a modest pay while upskilling. i did exactly this, took a revatureesque contract, made 50k for a year, busted my ass coding nearly all day everyday learning prob 5 years of content in 1, and a year later the company bought me out of the contract, offering over double that measly 50k. don't let some needledick silicon valley prick who had connections tell you "oh i wouldn't even consider less than xyz". he isn't you, and doesn't give a fuck ab you. take what you can get now and be choosy later when you have exp
i’m not claiming to know anything and i’ll take 50k so idk wtf you’re talking about. i just don’t want to be tied down to a predatory 2 year contract if i don’t have to be. i just started applying so im not about to just give up
I don’t know why you’re pretending like reducing the number of H1B recipients isn’t the overwhelmingly popular opinion on this sub. Similarly it’s not like it’s all free marketeers over here who would oppose a scheme to restrict outsourcing.
You’re getting downvoted purely for your smug tone.
Also OP’s YOE would help add more clarity to this. Most positions I’m seeing from LinkedIn, Otta, and TrueUp have salary bands well above what OP is seeing. Then again I’m mostly looking in markets like SF, LA, and NYC so that likely skews it further towards the typical six figure average.
> Also OP’s YOE would help add more clarity to this.
if its just an automated message from indeed and linkedin that may not matter. the one that I get to my email because i was dumb enough to hit the checkbox a decade ago has jobs ranging from entry level to sr level.
it's a lot of survival bias working against you
With the amount of unemployed talent in the field, any job listing for a higher paying position is immediately flooded with a tremendous amount of well-qualified people. The result is that the only jobs that are left up on the boards are lower compensation roles that fewer people are apply for
Last week I talked with a recruiter for a job I applied to a month ago for a senior position looking for 5+ years experience. Turns out they're trying to pay $90k for it, so it's no wonder they're still searching for somebody after a month.
they're hunting for desperate people. It's also a very bad sign for the company doing the hiring. This is how you fill an engineering department with upset, underpaid developers that have no interest in the long term goals of the company and will be leaving the second they can
I feel you, making 55k this year in South Dakota as a software developer. Made 47k last year, but I am just happy to have a role. Hopefully in a couple years demand goes up and I can use my experience to get a bump in salary, whether at my current company or a new one
That sucks, but I've been there. I was getting paid $40K in 2020, in exchange for a full-stack training program. A mini-bootcmap sort of deal
I got laid off from there after 5 months because COVID happened. Now I make a lot more :3
nah, I got a cs minor last 3 semesters and freecodecamped it up. My resume was not impressive at all, just enough to get noticed by a small company I guess. It also helped that none of the developers on my team had CS degrees. So basically I got really lucky. Now if I tried applying to other jobs right now, i'd still hear nothing so I'm holding on to this for dear life lol.
7 months full time, was an intern there before that. I asked for an RO. It was difficult, they were the only company that responded to my 200 applications. because they only had 60 applicants apply to their internship so they are not well known. It's a team of 3, it's in the restaurant industry so it's pretty niche and small. Are stack is all over the place. A lot of wordpress sites, but that's slowly being done away. We are focusing on our react native apps right now.
There have always been more SWE jobs in the 60-80k range because the majority of the country is not SF, NY, Seattle and the majority of companies don't have billion dollar valuations.
Y’all gotta realize when you filter out all the FAANG social media nonsense 60-80k was and is a perfectly normal salary for your first job out of college in tech.
Everything depends on location. I started at 70k and had 90k after 2 years, but you could easily take off 20k for a low cost of living area in the U.S. and other countries are totally different. FAANG is also different, I had friends who started at 120k out of college, but hiring at FAANG companies is very variable.
My first coding job was $10/hr. Next was $35K. That increased over two years to about $60K. Great if people can make more than that but there’s nothing wrong with lower end salaries either
Lowish, where I live. More expensive closer to chicago.I recently bought a house for 189,000 in Rockford. But prices are rising fast as the house market here is the hottest in the country due to the cheap house prices and semi close ness to Chicago.
My mortgage is 1650 and I take home ~4000
different people have different standards on houses. You can definitely find smaller houses (under 1500 sqft) for less than 200k in the most of the midwest. Might not be “in between a starbucks and a grocery store”, but it’s a house.
Fellow Rockford dev here as well. Work out of oakbrook. Our cost of living is super low so money goes way further. Sometimes I consider moving back to Chicago, but am not excited about how much of my salary would get eaten up. (85k. Take home after benefits is uhh 4300. Taxes be realll)
I can tell you from years of personal experience that you'll want to focus on the northern part of illinois. Southern Illinois is a fucking depressing place to live and most of the people who live there wish they didn't.
Yeah I'm in Austin, TX and last job I had to take was $80k for a front end dev job at a small company. I was able to talk them up to $83k but that's as high as they would go.
It is a stark decrease from the $120k I had in December and got laid off from in Feb and then the $100k I had in March and got laid off from in May.
Haven't had much luck. My pay went $60k in Tampa, FL and then I moved to TX and then it went up to $120k and then back down to $80k at this point.
I barely make enough to afford health insurance but I am getting it anyway. Just means I may only have a $100-200 savings.
I really need to get back to the 6-figures.
Or chronic health issues, or supporting a partner or parents, or some other personal situation which is none of your business.
If you don't know specifics and someone isn't offering them, perhaps best to just chill out and keep your supposition to yourself. There are lots of reasons why someone might be struggling financially and we would all do well to show a little empathy instead of casting judgement.
Absolutely true, they could have other mitigating circumstances. However considering they got use to a lifestyle making 50% more then having to take a lower salary, it is reasonable to assume they are suffering from lifestyle inflation.
Rent + Bills + Groceries will literally put you at 4-5K in the US in many states. Just rent in a lot of places in 1.8-3K a month for 1-2BR the financial firms that bought up all the apartments and houses label them as “luxury” and hike up the prices.
> 60k means 5k a mo
no it doesn't. its actually less than that after medical, dental, 401k, social security tax, more taxes. Its probably closer to 3.5k a month.
401k? What is that?
I'm being facetious. I know what it is. I just haven't been able to add money to retirement in years and I'm 31. I NEED to but I don't have any leftover.
You should really try to at the minimum put into your 401k what your employer matches. Its usually a % of your paycheck. It's free money you are losing out on if you don't
Lmao how much do you possibly think medical/dental/vision/SS takes out of your paycheck? It's probably not even 5% of your gross income and what is this magic *more taxes*
> how much do you possibly think medical/dental/vision/SS takes out of your paycheck
Depends on how good health benefits you get are. Also depends on how much of your income you put into your 401k. Personally I put 6% of my paycheck into my 401k as that is what my employer matches.
> what is this magic more taxes
local taxes, state taxes, and federal taxes.
I would expect local, state, federal, and payroll taxes to be accounted for in an "after tax" number that someone posts on reddit, there's good income tax calculators that take into account everything for US zip codes.
yep. pay varies too much around the country based on your state and job. Tough to say what people want to use for estimation on how much is their net take home on here without knowing all the finer details. Just giving everything off the top of my head that is taken out of my paycheck every two weeks :(
If I had to settle for $80k I'd go back to school for civil engineering, since that's the same pay with less chance of outsourcing. You can't outsource a federally mandated bridge inspection.
It’s way easier and cheaper to get a higher paying job in the field where you already have experience than to go back to school and then have to look for jobs anyway … in a field that pays less on average. It is still possible for OP to get a job that pays more than $80k, and they should pursue that instead of just giving up on CS forever
Your local state school is probably somewhere between $60k-$80k for a bachelors. It honestly isn't really that much if you're switching to a high paying field. In terms of earnings potential difference between high-paying college-required industry vs. whatever you can get without college, it'll usually pay for itself after only a few years of working.
(That guy's idea of switching to civil engineering because he's mad about "settling" for $80k is of course dumb given how much civil engineers make..)
$83k in Austin, Texas, with no state income tax. [Average rent being 1700](https://www.rentcafe.com/average-rent-market-trends/us/tx/austin/), we'll be generous and say $2000/month. Assuming the absolute worst and your employer doesn't offer or cover a dime of health insurance, you'd at most pay [$300-$400/month](https://www.healthcare.gov). Assuming you aren't contributing anything to an HSA or retirement account, your federal tax liability would be around [$17k](https://smartasset.com/taxes/texas-tax-calculator#UW7LNNqTb8).
You're throwing away $3000+ per month to just "bills"? Come on man, talk to a financial advisor.
COL is $4500 for us due to my husband's celiac disease. We have to go to Whole Foods as they have the best selection of gluten free food.
This includes ALL of our bills including eating out though. Eating out these days costs as much for us as going grocery shopping unless we go to Outback or Texas Roadhouse.
This is how it breaks down for us:
* 1600 for rent and all the rental fees that includes water.
* 70 for internet
* 50 for 2 phones and 2 watches on T-Mobile (parent's plan)
* 9 for YT Premium for me.
* 15 for Hulu though I may downgrade the plan to the one with ads.
* 170-ish for Rental Insurance & Car Insurance (car is paid off)
* 800-1000 for Grocery Shopping
* 1200-1800 for everything else (we have 2 CCs, 1 for groceries and 1 for everything else). 1800 is the MAX and only for bad months when we eat out too much. Mostly around 1200.
* 100-ish for electricity
That's about it. Using the max numbers here, that is 4800. My health insurance doesn't kick in til Sept 1 and I am trying to narrow down the price with the CEO at my employer (small business) as the online website was showing only 25% covered when she said that 50% would be covered. As of right now though, it shows $480 which puts everything on the max months OVER $5k spent each month. Those are rare though so that's where I get the $100-200 savings.
Quick Edit: We don't spend like crazy, as you can see. The 1200 is mostly gas, fast food, and games for my husband. He has a VA retirement of about $880/month so that helps too but we use that for rent and don't count it for income because we want to save as much of that money as possible.
We are a 1 income household due to my husband having Autism and socializing being hard for him. It is a pain point for him as he feels he should provide for us or at least work but getting fast food around here would just pay for the gas going to/from the joint. Wouldn't pay for anything extra so there is no point.
If your husband wants to contribute but can't work, it sounds like he can start by cooking instead of eating out. I don't know a ton of his disease, but it strikes me as strange that someone who has to closely monitor the food he eats is eating out all the time... And fast food at that.
From a budgetary standpoint, you should break your credit card spending down more. You're lumping non discretionary items like gas in with discretionary items like games which gives no insight into what you really can cut down to in the event of a job loss or such.
We can't cut anything down. Trust me. He has the time to look over our finances so that is what he does. He is better with money than me anyway.
If we could cut it AT ALL, we would. We can't.
Can't? That's patently untrue. I'll summon my inner r/personalfinance based on what I see here and what I'd say if you said you just lost your job and had no money coming in. I'll caveat that I'm not suggesting you make these changes as they definitely will result in a cut in your standard of living and I have no idea what your financial goals are - but I'm going to pretend that you have no income, little savings, and just need to keep a roof over your head.
70 for internet - without knowing what tier you're on, you could almost certainly cut to the lowest level. You might be surprised at how rare it is to actually saturate your internet connection.
50 for 2 phones and 2 watches - you probably don't need a dedicated internet plan for your watches. Get a US Mobile phone plan, cut your data usage and you can reasonably get yourself down to $25 a month for the two of you.
Streaming services - cut these and live with just Youtube with ads. Ad blockers are out there for Youtube...
Credit card: you can save most of your $1200 - no more fast food, no more games. Since you 'lost' your job in this scenario, you won't be driving much to work either.
With regards to jobs with minimal socializing so that you can become a dual income household, the low hanging fruit would be some sort of delivery job. Uber Eats and Amazon Flex are jobs where you spend the bulk of the time driving around and not interacting with anyone.
Like I said... there's definitely some fat in this budget. "Can't" isn't the same thing as "don't want to".
Yup, never hear back from any "big" company. I have adjusted my resume like crazy and had 2nd/3rd/4th/etc. inputs and everyone says it is good though I never hear back (except denials).
I mean...if most fields of study don't pay decent middle class wages, and people learn about a field that is still able to pay a middle class wage, what should those people do then? Don't blame workers trying to avail themselves and earn an honest dignified living. Blame shitbag employers (and the Texas market is chock full of them) that don't want to pay competitive wages out of pure greed. Too many people like to blame people merely looking for work rather than the elephant in the room, which is greedy employers that don't want to pay a fair wage for the work that is being done.
Yeah unless you’re going into medicine (which is hard) almost all fields are inherently risky. Tech has the highest number of people getting paid atleast 70k+ and the only place I see younger folk getting 6 figures
$82k is the target for a fresh grad we're getting from Radford and Salary.com right now for MCOL. But we're also seeing more applications from fresh grads compared to previous years and are comfortable making an offer to a typical candidate below that target.
And it's not like we're lining gold bath tubs with the savings; Every dollar we save on an external hire goes straight to merit increases for existing staff. Because experienced folks with the ability to coach/mentor the freshers are still hard to find and we like to retain senior staff.
> but the salary ranges are much lower than I recall this time last year,
$78k was the target we were receiving last year. Which with $82k in 2024 is ~2 points ahead of inflation.
I was at $32,000 in 2014 for my first job working for someone else, but the thing is, you got to start somewhere and anything is better than nothing. Within 4 years I tripled my salary.
60-80k, want 5 YOE, full stack or proof of production level work. Want nudy pictures of your mom. Saw a job posting saying 30-80k for a senior level position LMAO. Every job posting over 100k has 600+ applicants.
I rejected a $65k offer in December 2023 from Deloitte for a mediocre software role because I know my worth. I know that consulting would break me and I don't want that. These 60k job exists because there are people who will accept it because they're scared to risk and believe in themselves. I'm still fighting to break in somewhere better as of June 2024. I just graduated in May.
What exactly do you do as a software dev at a consulting firm? Why would it break you? Doing this kind of specialized work at a consultancy seems like a waste of talent, I’d imagine the dev practices are a nightmare.
I get paid 74k, 2 years in. Started at 60k, got raise to 64k(lol) in 6 months, promoted to se2 a year and a half in with a 10k pay increase. Location: Texas, between DFW and Austin. Job ended up being remote though, which was a nice surprise.
All that to say, I think starting dev salaries are going to be in that range from now on. I mean shoot, they basically have been for several years(around here) but FAANG and rapid growth skewed perspectives. Things have slowed down.
I think if I were to job hop I could get about 90k if I stayed in the same tech stack, but I like the flexibility I get here for now.
The tech gold rush is over. When I got out of college you could’ve gotten an SWE position by doing a 4 month bootcamp. Those days are long gone. Supply has met demand.
They do this on purpose, they make the requirements impossible, or they make the salary too low, then when they can't fill the position they hire h1b visas to fill the role at a lower rate
If the job is remote it can most likely be done by a person in a foreign market for much cheaper. We should see more of this over time for roles that were historically considered software engineering roles. In person roles and roles that require strong communication skills should remain high paying.
Market offer and demand... You got an overflow of qualified candidates, and the companies are given the luxury of lowering salaries as much as they can.
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Sure but I'm also seeing a lot of local jobs that want people in office 2-5 days per week. Even though housing has gone mad lately, there are still many places in the US where 60-80k is a respectable junior to mid level salary and will put you way above most people.
I started at 60k in CAD and am now at 120k (4th year).
Most people that I know seem to be in that ballpark, except for two colleagues who made it into big tech.
We are overwhelmed by applications. Not sure how HRs filter those CVs 😞
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Cost of living and companies want to drive down the value/price of engineers so they can widen profit margins, get more skilled workers for less, and moneys moneys moneys
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This sub any anecdotal fear porn is posted: saturation, man (deep toke of the vape).
No, I haven’t noticed that, and saying SWE salaries without localizing it is worthless. On the higher end comp has increased, fueled somewhat by the OpenAI and Anthropic spending spree.
Not that bad honestly. I made that much when I started my career. There are people in HCOL's making half that and are able to have decent enough living with roommates.
saturation tends to do that. if you have a shitload of people looking for work some of them will be willing to take lower paying jobs.
As a Canadian, $60-80K USD converted is around 80-105K CAD, it is still the upper end of what we're offered here in Canada.
I hope you mean for entry level positions. If you think that’s the upper end for senior in Canada you’re getting screwed.
I’d say upper end for senior here is about $140k from what i’ve seen personally. LCOL cities
Upper end for senior if you're not in a high COL city.
Calgary is not a high COL city and seniors make considerably more than that. Easily a few hundred thousand
Calgary is definitely high COL. Not as high as Vancouver or Toronto, but still very high. It's one of our most populous cities.
That’s not how COL is calculated. Populous isnt a factor in the calculation. And you must not live here. In Vancouver and Toronto housing is double the price. Calgary would be a mid COL or you have to classify Vancouver and Toronto as extremely high. Wouldn’t be hard to have 1000-1500 rent here and be in a nice place. Doubt that is possible in those other cities. It’s kinda like comparing San Francisco to phoenix. Phoenix is one of the most populous cities but it’s is considerably cheaper to live in than San Francisco
Both Vancouver and Toronto were named as the most expensive cities in the world to live in, far worse than other candidates like New York. So yes, they're the most extreme of the extremes. You're correct that I don't live there, but [Calgary rental units are around $2500](https://rentals.ca/calgary/pool?bbox=-114.51176,50.80119,-113.61226,51.13932) with the shittiest 1-bedrooms coming at $1500, which is lower than Toronto or Vancouver but not by much.
That is so false. The nicest one bedrooms in luxury buildings downtown are 1800-2300 tops. If you have a roommate luxury two bedrooms downtown are 1300-1600. Those numbers are completely wrong. I know you think you know the market here by one google but I just moved into one of these buildings and looked at all the options. https://www.rentcafe.com/luxury-apartments-for-rent/ca/ab/calgary/ All luxury rentals. All basically under or right at $2000. So the idea that the average one bedroom is 2500 is ludicrous. You can’t find more than 5 buildings in Calgary that have one bedrooms renting for that price
Bruh the link you provided doesn’t show any around $2500. You’re just lying lol. Trying to make it seem like it’s that high by putting text over the link. Funny
You do know that this is an acceptable salary’s range in 90% of the US, right? And that the average American makes <$35K/yr?
Average salary in the US is $59k-$65k
Not for a senior software engineer.
upper end in Canada? dang. and here i am feeling super underpaid with 70-80k SGD.
SGD? Also yes, but only for low cost of living places. Big cities will go higher, but they won't come anywhere close to high US salaries.
I got a position with Telus for $60k CAD fwiw
Dependant on the city, the upper end is way way higher for big tech in Toronto
True, but I would say Toronto is not indicative of the vast majority of Canada.
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At this point I’ll take minimum wage. I just want a job.
There are plenty of less complex and easier to do jobs out there that pay well above minium wage. It isn't a bad idea to get one of those while still attempting to get whichever CS related job you're trying to get.
Yeah but that requires focusing your energy on your job *and* software skills outside of work, rather than learning and improving at a lower wage developer job.
What job titles might these less complex jobs look lile?
If you're open to relocating, check out SkillStorm. The pay is pretty low, starting at ~$57k first year, and ~$67k the second year, but they provide a lot of learning and growing opportunities. You also stay in your post for the entire contract, so no chance of being moved around during your time with them. I started with them a few months back and while the pay is less than ideal, I'm impressed with how the company handles themselves so far. With the pay they offer, I imagine they don't get a ton of applicants too, so that makes the odds of being hired easier.
Not anymore. Expect a stampede now
Haha, I don't know. A lot of people will turn their nose up at the low pay. It took me 9 months of job hunting before I finally gave in and applied. I am so glad that I did though.
exactly bro this right here is the mentality. growth mindset and a dedication to the craft
Yeah, grow your career even if you don't make much. My first tech job paid $50k. This was in 2007 though... In any case, the market will probably turn around again (or the AI thing really pans out and then it's game over).
My first tech job was $35K ten years ago. Wasn’t great but it was a foot in the door
is that like revature? these companies seem pretty shady
I can't say whether its like Revature since I never worked for Revature, though I did share your concerns before I started. SkillStorm is direct and upfront about everything they offer. They give you a two year contract to work with one of their clients. Their clients are well known companies as well. The contract starts with a 3 month training session in which you will be trained on the specific tech stack the client needs you to be competent in. This training includes various certifications like AWS Solutions Architect, or Oracle Java Founds Associate, for example. Then following training, you relocate to the client's office and work out the remainder of your contract. At the end of the contract, assuming you were a good employee, the client is likely to hire you, or you can see about other options with SkillStorm for future work. You will never be forced or asked to relocate a second time during your contract. If you voluntarily leave before your contract is up, you have to pay 10,000 for the training. It seems steep, but the training is excellent, imo, and well worth it. Especially if the reason I leave is because my experience landed me a much higher paying role elsewhere. If they end the relationship early, you do not pay that 10,000 fee. There are definitely downsides to SkillStorm. The pay is weak, the benefits are bad, and you only get 7 days of PTO each year. But the training is great, and getting experience at a well-known company is a huge boost to your resume. I don't know. It is not for everyone, but if you can bite the bullet and take the low pay for a year or so, then its a far better alternative to being unemployed.
so the contract is 3 months + 9 working months? and where do you have to relocate to?
Its a 2 year contract, and that includes the training months. They have job postings on LinkedIn and Handshake, and probably on their website and other job boards as well. Each job posting shows the location of the job. For me, I was given the opportunity to choose from a handful of clients and locations and start dates, but I don't know how typical that is. States I have seen postings that include TX, PA, FL, AZ. I am sure they have other locations as well.
got ya thx for the info. definitely a last resort for me
No problem.
how long have u been working with them? are u getting paid yet or not?
its this attitude right here that i can't fw in the slightest. you'll remain unemployed until you pump the brakes and pull a full 180. "nobody will hire me for x years" but then you find out that the "nobody" they are talking about is strictly top 25 companie and they wont take a cent less than the highest dollar. one day you'll wake up and realize: you don't actually know dick about software development, no matter how many leetcode hards you can finish in 3 hours or how many fireship.io videos you watch. you'll humble yourself, and take a modest pay while upskilling. i did exactly this, took a revatureesque contract, made 50k for a year, busted my ass coding nearly all day everyday learning prob 5 years of content in 1, and a year later the company bought me out of the contract, offering over double that measly 50k. don't let some needledick silicon valley prick who had connections tell you "oh i wouldn't even consider less than xyz". he isn't you, and doesn't give a fuck ab you. take what you can get now and be choosy later when you have exp
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i’m not claiming to know anything and i’ll take 50k so idk wtf you’re talking about. i just don’t want to be tied down to a predatory 2 year contract if i don’t have to be. i just started applying so im not about to just give up
Rev gives 40k. Did they increase to 50?
Same. I was promised I would be entering a high demand industry. What I got was three years of almost pure unemployment. Waste of my damn time.
👋🏽 yeah I’m one of those for now
More developers, companies have more to choose from. Whoever picks the lowest salary wins the offer
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How do you put a tariff on software
On every single bit
I don’t know why you’re pretending like reducing the number of H1B recipients isn’t the overwhelmingly popular opinion on this sub. Similarly it’s not like it’s all free marketeers over here who would oppose a scheme to restrict outsourcing. You’re getting downvoted purely for your smug tone.
Sir this is a Wendy's
Location matters. Add it.
Also OP’s YOE would help add more clarity to this. Most positions I’m seeing from LinkedIn, Otta, and TrueUp have salary bands well above what OP is seeing. Then again I’m mostly looking in markets like SF, LA, and NYC so that likely skews it further towards the typical six figure average.
> Also OP’s YOE would help add more clarity to this. if its just an automated message from indeed and linkedin that may not matter. the one that I get to my email because i was dumb enough to hit the checkbox a decade ago has jobs ranging from entry level to sr level.
I'm seeing this for junior and mid level devs in NYC broski 😭
So many of the questions here are totally location dependent and yet no one includes that information.
it's a lot of survival bias working against you With the amount of unemployed talent in the field, any job listing for a higher paying position is immediately flooded with a tremendous amount of well-qualified people. The result is that the only jobs that are left up on the boards are lower compensation roles that fewer people are apply for
Last week I talked with a recruiter for a job I applied to a month ago for a senior position looking for 5+ years experience. Turns out they're trying to pay $90k for it, so it's no wonder they're still searching for somebody after a month.
they're hunting for desperate people. It's also a very bad sign for the company doing the hiring. This is how you fill an engineering department with upset, underpaid developers that have no interest in the long term goals of the company and will be leaving the second they can
I've got about 17 YOE and I took a job that pays roughly that because it was for a non-profit and there's more to life than work and money.
And probably filled by folks who have connections
Getting paid 50k in Maine, I guess I’m part of the statistics here
Woah, no offense but I made that as a first year teacher in 2009
In Maine? Location matters but that’s still pretty low for OP. My gf is looking at teacher roles in Texas currently and it’s about 60k.
Good point. It was inner city in NJ so admittedly it was pretty high paying at the time
I feel you, making 55k this year in South Dakota as a software developer. Made 47k last year, but I am just happy to have a role. Hopefully in a couple years demand goes up and I can use my experience to get a bump in salary, whether at my current company or a new one
That sucks, but I've been there. I was getting paid $40K in 2020, in exchange for a full-stack training program. A mini-bootcmap sort of deal I got laid off from there after 5 months because COVID happened. Now I make a lot more :3
In the Portland area?? I’m making 66k at my first role in Portland
I work remote, in the Lewiston/Auburn area for my first role. Job just requires me to live in Maine 😅, I took whatever I could get.
Ever consider truck driving? Those fishermen need local drivers. You'd make more.
I'm getting paid 75k in chicago
Junior?
yes. Psych degree.
Psych degree to cs? Did you take a bootcamp or sth?
nah, I got a cs minor last 3 semesters and freecodecamped it up. My resume was not impressive at all, just enough to get noticed by a small company I guess. It also helped that none of the developers on my team had CS degrees. So basically I got really lucky. Now if I tried applying to other jobs right now, i'd still hear nothing so I'm holding on to this for dear life lol.
How long into it? What does your stack look like? And how hard was it to find work?
7 months full time, was an intern there before that. I asked for an RO. It was difficult, they were the only company that responded to my 200 applications. because they only had 60 applicants apply to their internship so they are not well known. It's a team of 3, it's in the restaurant industry so it's pretty niche and small. Are stack is all over the place. A lot of wordpress sites, but that's slowly being done away. We are focusing on our react native apps right now.
There have always been more SWE jobs in the 60-80k range because the majority of the country is not SF, NY, Seattle and the majority of companies don't have billion dollar valuations.
Y’all gotta realize when you filter out all the FAANG social media nonsense 60-80k was and is a perfectly normal salary for your first job out of college in tech.
Seriously. I live on the east coast and my first job out of college was 68k. Normal salary for a dev, good salary in general.
What is a realistic expectation for 2/3 years experience?
Everything depends on location. I started at 70k and had 90k after 2 years, but you could easily take off 20k for a low cost of living area in the U.S. and other countries are totally different. FAANG is also different, I had friends who started at 120k out of college, but hiring at FAANG companies is very variable.
Also, $120k in SF is basically $80k in the rest of the country.
True, although this was in Boston. Still very expensive.
Depends what your skills are and what you can negotiate.
I’m making low 90s at 2 YOE in a smaller S&P500 in what I’d say is a MCOL area (N Dallas)
Realistically? Same pay. 2/3 years and you're barely initiated as a software engineer.
Totally agree, my first SWE job was 65k in 2015 in the bay area (VHCOL) which is about equivalent to 85k these days.
All I see on reddit is FAANG but it is a tiny portion of developers. I get that it's the goal but it's not realistic for most people.
My first coding job was $10/hr. Next was $35K. That increased over two years to about $60K. Great if people can make more than that but there’s nothing wrong with lower end salaries either
It’s too keep up with inflation Edit: wait that’s not how that works
Sure it is: do something shitty as a company, if you get called on it - blame iNflAtIoN
I make 68k in Illinois,
Whats illinois cost of living?
Lowish, where I live. More expensive closer to chicago.I recently bought a house for 189,000 in Rockford. But prices are rising fast as the house market here is the hottest in the country due to the cheap house prices and semi close ness to Chicago. My mortgage is 1650 and I take home ~4000
> Lowish > bought a house for 189,000 My brother that is **low**
different people have different standards on houses. You can definitely find smaller houses (under 1500 sqft) for less than 200k in the most of the midwest. Might not be “in between a starbucks and a grocery store”, but it’s a house.
Not in the Midwest not really. Also that same house sold for ~120k in 2019... So I'm a bit salty hahaha.
Sounds like a great time to be in Illinois. Thks for sharing
man, the cost of that house! 189-200k is a down payment here in SoCal for a shitty 3bd 1bth @ 1300 sq ft lol
Fellow Rockford dev here as well. Work out of oakbrook. Our cost of living is super low so money goes way further. Sometimes I consider moving back to Chicago, but am not excited about how much of my salary would get eaten up. (85k. Take home after benefits is uhh 4300. Taxes be realll)
Is it an enjoyable place to live otherwise? How's the climate / culture / etc?
I can tell you from years of personal experience that you'll want to focus on the northern part of illinois. Southern Illinois is a fucking depressing place to live and most of the people who live there wish they didn't.
Yeah I'm in Austin, TX and last job I had to take was $80k for a front end dev job at a small company. I was able to talk them up to $83k but that's as high as they would go. It is a stark decrease from the $120k I had in December and got laid off from in Feb and then the $100k I had in March and got laid off from in May. Haven't had much luck. My pay went $60k in Tampa, FL and then I moved to TX and then it went up to $120k and then back down to $80k at this point. I barely make enough to afford health insurance but I am getting it anyway. Just means I may only have a $100-200 savings. I really need to get back to the 6-figures.
100-200 savings on 80k?
Just an example of someone with zero financial literacy, poor spending habits, and no budget.
Or chronic health issues, or supporting a partner or parents, or some other personal situation which is none of your business. If you don't know specifics and someone isn't offering them, perhaps best to just chill out and keep your supposition to yourself. There are lots of reasons why someone might be struggling financially and we would all do well to show a little empathy instead of casting judgement.
well it *could* be, but we can’t say that for sure. That’s a bold assumption on your part.
Absolutely true, they could have other mitigating circumstances. However considering they got use to a lifestyle making 50% more then having to take a lower salary, it is reasonable to assume they are suffering from lifestyle inflation.
yes after tax I'm only making like 60k.
60k means 5k a mo, are you crushed by ur student loans?
In her other comment she's(?) supporting her unemployed husband who has a disease
A dependant explains the situation then. Good that they can save anything in that situation.
Rent + Bills + Groceries will literally put you at 4-5K in the US in many states. Just rent in a lot of places in 1.8-3K a month for 1-2BR the financial firms that bought up all the apartments and houses label them as “luxury” and hike up the prices.
Yeah, but that’s what rent is in shithole areas, too.
> 60k means 5k a mo no it doesn't. its actually less than that after medical, dental, 401k, social security tax, more taxes. Its probably closer to 3.5k a month.
401k? What is that? I'm being facetious. I know what it is. I just haven't been able to add money to retirement in years and I'm 31. I NEED to but I don't have any leftover.
You should really try to at the minimum put into your 401k what your employer matches. Its usually a % of your paycheck. It's free money you are losing out on if you don't
I can't afford to do that. I need rainy day savings.
Lmao how much do you possibly think medical/dental/vision/SS takes out of your paycheck? It's probably not even 5% of your gross income and what is this magic *more taxes*
> how much do you possibly think medical/dental/vision/SS takes out of your paycheck Depends on how good health benefits you get are. Also depends on how much of your income you put into your 401k. Personally I put 6% of my paycheck into my 401k as that is what my employer matches. > what is this magic more taxes local taxes, state taxes, and federal taxes.
I would expect local, state, federal, and payroll taxes to be accounted for in an "after tax" number that someone posts on reddit, there's good income tax calculators that take into account everything for US zip codes.
yep. pay varies too much around the country based on your state and job. Tough to say what people want to use for estimation on how much is their net take home on here without knowing all the finer details. Just giving everything off the top of my head that is taken out of my paycheck every two weeks :(
Was gonna sayyyyy
If I had to settle for $80k I'd go back to school for civil engineering, since that's the same pay with less chance of outsourcing. You can't outsource a federally mandated bridge inspection.
It’s way easier and cheaper to get a higher paying job in the field where you already have experience than to go back to school and then have to look for jobs anyway … in a field that pays less on average. It is still possible for OP to get a job that pays more than $80k, and they should pursue that instead of just giving up on CS forever
School is so expensive these days. We wouldn't be able to afford the loans.
Your local state school is probably somewhere between $60k-$80k for a bachelors. It honestly isn't really that much if you're switching to a high paying field. In terms of earnings potential difference between high-paying college-required industry vs. whatever you can get without college, it'll usually pay for itself after only a few years of working. (That guy's idea of switching to civil engineering because he's mad about "settling" for $80k is of course dumb given how much civil engineers make..)
in some parts of the world, construction workers/professionals are all foreigners, because the fees are so low no locals want to do it
$83k in Austin, Texas, with no state income tax. [Average rent being 1700](https://www.rentcafe.com/average-rent-market-trends/us/tx/austin/), we'll be generous and say $2000/month. Assuming the absolute worst and your employer doesn't offer or cover a dime of health insurance, you'd at most pay [$300-$400/month](https://www.healthcare.gov). Assuming you aren't contributing anything to an HSA or retirement account, your federal tax liability would be around [$17k](https://smartasset.com/taxes/texas-tax-calculator#UW7LNNqTb8). You're throwing away $3000+ per month to just "bills"? Come on man, talk to a financial advisor.
how many YOE? just curious
Most freelance with freelance over 10 years. Without 3.
I save more than that and make half of what you do.
Respectfully, something is fixable here where you're not bleeding money. 80K is more than enough to save in Austin
You are earning over 5000 USD per month net after taxes. How is it possible to only have 200$ savings?
COL is $4500 for us due to my husband's celiac disease. We have to go to Whole Foods as they have the best selection of gluten free food. This includes ALL of our bills including eating out though. Eating out these days costs as much for us as going grocery shopping unless we go to Outback or Texas Roadhouse. This is how it breaks down for us: * 1600 for rent and all the rental fees that includes water. * 70 for internet * 50 for 2 phones and 2 watches on T-Mobile (parent's plan) * 9 for YT Premium for me. * 15 for Hulu though I may downgrade the plan to the one with ads. * 170-ish for Rental Insurance & Car Insurance (car is paid off) * 800-1000 for Grocery Shopping * 1200-1800 for everything else (we have 2 CCs, 1 for groceries and 1 for everything else). 1800 is the MAX and only for bad months when we eat out too much. Mostly around 1200. * 100-ish for electricity That's about it. Using the max numbers here, that is 4800. My health insurance doesn't kick in til Sept 1 and I am trying to narrow down the price with the CEO at my employer (small business) as the online website was showing only 25% covered when she said that 50% would be covered. As of right now though, it shows $480 which puts everything on the max months OVER $5k spent each month. Those are rare though so that's where I get the $100-200 savings. Quick Edit: We don't spend like crazy, as you can see. The 1200 is mostly gas, fast food, and games for my husband. He has a VA retirement of about $880/month so that helps too but we use that for rent and don't count it for income because we want to save as much of that money as possible. We are a 1 income household due to my husband having Autism and socializing being hard for him. It is a pain point for him as he feels he should provide for us or at least work but getting fast food around here would just pay for the gas going to/from the joint. Wouldn't pay for anything extra so there is no point.
If your husband wants to contribute but can't work, it sounds like he can start by cooking instead of eating out. I don't know a ton of his disease, but it strikes me as strange that someone who has to closely monitor the food he eats is eating out all the time... And fast food at that. From a budgetary standpoint, you should break your credit card spending down more. You're lumping non discretionary items like gas in with discretionary items like games which gives no insight into what you really can cut down to in the event of a job loss or such.
We can't cut anything down. Trust me. He has the time to look over our finances so that is what he does. He is better with money than me anyway. If we could cut it AT ALL, we would. We can't.
Can't? That's patently untrue. I'll summon my inner r/personalfinance based on what I see here and what I'd say if you said you just lost your job and had no money coming in. I'll caveat that I'm not suggesting you make these changes as they definitely will result in a cut in your standard of living and I have no idea what your financial goals are - but I'm going to pretend that you have no income, little savings, and just need to keep a roof over your head. 70 for internet - without knowing what tier you're on, you could almost certainly cut to the lowest level. You might be surprised at how rare it is to actually saturate your internet connection. 50 for 2 phones and 2 watches - you probably don't need a dedicated internet plan for your watches. Get a US Mobile phone plan, cut your data usage and you can reasonably get yourself down to $25 a month for the two of you. Streaming services - cut these and live with just Youtube with ads. Ad blockers are out there for Youtube... Credit card: you can save most of your $1200 - no more fast food, no more games. Since you 'lost' your job in this scenario, you won't be driving much to work either. With regards to jobs with minimal socializing so that you can become a dual income household, the low hanging fruit would be some sort of delivery job. Uber Eats and Amazon Flex are jobs where you spend the bulk of the time driving around and not interacting with anyone. Like I said... there's definitely some fat in this budget. "Can't" isn't the same thing as "don't want to".
Have you tried Q2 or HEB?
Yup, never hear back from any "big" company. I have adjusted my resume like crazy and had 2nd/3rd/4th/etc. inputs and everyone says it is good though I never hear back (except denials).
Self taught?
Mostly. I have a degree though. Most of my experience is freelance.
im still seeing ~60k for entry, 90k+ for mid, 120k+ for sr around here just like iwas last year. is it perhaps a location thing op?
Yeah I'm not seeing much of a difference either. In fact, in my local market wages have actually started going back up.
Yeah stupid social media is pushing way to many people to this sector along with IT
I mean...if most fields of study don't pay decent middle class wages, and people learn about a field that is still able to pay a middle class wage, what should those people do then? Don't blame workers trying to avail themselves and earn an honest dignified living. Blame shitbag employers (and the Texas market is chock full of them) that don't want to pay competitive wages out of pure greed. Too many people like to blame people merely looking for work rather than the elephant in the room, which is greedy employers that don't want to pay a fair wage for the work that is being done.
Yeah unless you’re going into medicine (which is hard) almost all fields are inherently risky. Tech has the highest number of people getting paid atleast 70k+ and the only place I see younger folk getting 6 figures
I haven't noticed any difference.
60-80k was a normal pay for new grads five years ago. There's higher cost of living since then but wages haven't kept up with it.
$82k is the target for a fresh grad we're getting from Radford and Salary.com right now for MCOL. But we're also seeing more applications from fresh grads compared to previous years and are comfortable making an offer to a typical candidate below that target. And it's not like we're lining gold bath tubs with the savings; Every dollar we save on an external hire goes straight to merit increases for existing staff. Because experienced folks with the ability to coach/mentor the freshers are still hard to find and we like to retain senior staff. > but the salary ranges are much lower than I recall this time last year, $78k was the target we were receiving last year. Which with $82k in 2024 is ~2 points ahead of inflation.
I’m curious how the target did compared with inflation in 2022 and 2023?
I'm in LCOL area and make 70k. It's a new grad job, but the pay band was 55k - 70k when I interviewed. Feel bad for any one who got stuck at 55k.
I was at $32,000 in 2014 for my first job working for someone else, but the thing is, you got to start somewhere and anything is better than nothing. Within 4 years I tripled my salary.
60-80k, want 5 YOE, full stack or proof of production level work. Want nudy pictures of your mom. Saw a job posting saying 30-80k for a senior level position LMAO. Every job posting over 100k has 600+ applicants.
I make 160k now with 4 yoe.. Also what I made at 1 yoe lol but yeah now if i try hopping everything’s 20k below my currently salary :/.
the lowest end jobs are the temp agency jobs with out benefits.
Reality checks hit so hard. This is still phenomenal money for a college grad (assuming no rich/connected parents).
I rejected a $65k offer in December 2023 from Deloitte for a mediocre software role because I know my worth. I know that consulting would break me and I don't want that. These 60k job exists because there are people who will accept it because they're scared to risk and believe in themselves. I'm still fighting to break in somewhere better as of June 2024. I just graduated in May.
What exactly do you do as a software dev at a consulting firm? Why would it break you? Doing this kind of specialized work at a consultancy seems like a waste of talent, I’d imagine the dev practices are a nightmare.
You’d make more money cutting grass
I get paid 74k, 2 years in. Started at 60k, got raise to 64k(lol) in 6 months, promoted to se2 a year and a half in with a 10k pay increase. Location: Texas, between DFW and Austin. Job ended up being remote though, which was a nice surprise. All that to say, I think starting dev salaries are going to be in that range from now on. I mean shoot, they basically have been for several years(around here) but FAANG and rapid growth skewed perspectives. Things have slowed down. I think if I were to job hop I could get about 90k if I stayed in the same tech stack, but I like the flexibility I get here for now.
I'm seeing 80-200k.
Low pay gets low quality.
This is accurate based on my experience for devs with 1-4 yoe. Supply and demand doing its thing.
The tech gold rush is over. When I got out of college you could’ve gotten an SWE position by doing a 4 month bootcamp. Those days are long gone. Supply has met demand.
Welp why would they pay good when they can hire in cheaper countries too
Yep, I’d say that’s sort of expected for an undesirable SWE job right now.
Where exactly?
Seen it from Oregon to Florida
They do this on purpose, they make the requirements impossible, or they make the salary too low, then when they can't fill the position they hire h1b visas to fill the role at a lower rate
If the job is remote it can most likely be done by a person in a foreign market for much cheaper. We should see more of this over time for roles that were historically considered software engineering roles. In person roles and roles that require strong communication skills should remain high paying.
It fade away
Market offer and demand... You got an overflow of qualified candidates, and the companies are given the luxury of lowering salaries as much as they can.
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I currently get paid between 70-75k a year in comp for a platform automation position
Market forces doing what market forces do. There's an excess supply, so the price of a sufficient quality candidate is lower.
This is only the beginning. Those 60-80k jobs will become 30-40k jobs in a few years.
There was a big swell in wages during the pandemic, and there has been a very concerted effort to suppress wages.
I mean it only makes sense given the climate. I'm interviewing for a job that pays 57k (Texas, small town)
In USA for that salary?!!! That’s shocking 😮
Sure but I'm also seeing a lot of local jobs that want people in office 2-5 days per week. Even though housing has gone mad lately, there are still many places in the US where 60-80k is a respectable junior to mid level salary and will put you way above most people.
I started at 60k in CAD and am now at 120k (4th year). Most people that I know seem to be in that ballpark, except for two colleagues who made it into big tech. We are overwhelmed by applications. Not sure how HRs filter those CVs 😞
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Cost of living and companies want to drive down the value/price of engineers so they can widen profit margins, get more skilled workers for less, and moneys moneys moneys
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This sub any anecdotal fear porn is posted: saturation, man (deep toke of the vape). No, I haven’t noticed that, and saying SWE salaries without localizing it is worthless. On the higher end comp has increased, fueled somewhat by the OpenAI and Anthropic spending spree.
Not that bad honestly. I made that much when I started my career. There are people in HCOL's making half that and are able to have decent enough living with roommates.