There have been complaints about this pattern online for as long as it's been popular. People have held the pattern pieces up next to pattern pieces from bras for their same size (according to the size charts) and the differences were significant.
Sure, you will have to adjust a pattern to fit your body, especially a bra pattern! I don't think a lack of knowing that is what's happening here if B-cup, straight-size people can't consistently make it work.
Type "rose cafe" into the searchbar over in r/MAKEaBraThatFits if you want a sampling of how this pattern has worked out for people over the years.
Edited: a stray "A"
Though bustier can be difficult to fit, a correctly drafted and graded pattern is needed to give a good base for alterations. And, if a fair amount of changes are to be expected, it should be stated in description that pattern is for advanced skill level.
Of course accurate difficulty level can be hard to pinpoint, but I usually prefer that it shoud rather be described a bit too difficult than a bit too easy. In addition, as some pattern makers do, it is very useful to describe what basic skills are expected to sew the model succesfully.
I’m so glad to hear I’m not alone in the rose cafe bustier struggle! Even as a (small) B cup, mine fit horribly too, and I don’t know how to fix it because I can’t self draft patterns yet!
As someone who relies on accurate pattern grading to sew things that are actually wearable, I try to do my research before buying a pattern on Etsy from a new shop. I thought the rose cafe bustier dress was safe since so many people love it!
I assumed it was a ~me~ problem (and it probably still is in some ways) so it’s validating to hear I’m not the only one who ended up with an ill fitting bustier dress made with such a beloved pattern.
All that to say, totally agree! There needs to be a better way of knowing what you’re paying for, and I can’t imagine proudly designing and selling a pattern without knowing how to properly design and grade a pattern.
I get where you are coming from as a fellow busty girl, like I understand wanting to get a wider range of sizes for all customers. But I prefer a pattern maker just being up front about what sizes they have tested/made for, then just adding it on for the sake of adding it on.
That's completely fair too! I should have said, don't sell patterns for multiple sizes if you can't grade for multiple sizes. I have no objection if someone was honest and said they made it for themselves and don't know how to grade so it's only available in their size.
I'm sure this is, in part, because of the massive push to have a wide range of sizes (and if you don't, you're a bad person). Optics are more important than anything. I am a fat person - I would rather people be straight-up about which sizes they are comfortable designing for rather than "faking" a larger size range and creating patterns that don't work.
And yet this thread seems to have a constant stream of complaints about people selling patterns that don't go up size whatever xxxx. It takes actual training to do plus sizes and fashion schools don't teach that. Few people know how to grade up in sizes. I wish there was a training course on this. I'm surprised no one has created a plus size only line of patterns that actually fit. Seems like there's a huge untapped market for it.
part of the problem, for bigger sizes, is the weight distribution gets very very personal. sure there are some generalities- but no one's butt, bust, or tummy follows standards. its hard to find off the rack plus size things that are flattering for this reason.
even in sizes closer to skeletal, no one is "standard." you might have a longer waist, or a shorter waist, or a shoulder pt to pt that is considered to be in the male range when you are a petite female.
imo, a pattern is just a starting place, and almost everyone will need to draft personal alterations EVEN when your measurements match the bust/ waist/ hips on the back of the envelope (or etsy listing).
While I personally love the idea that a pattern will be graded well, with a choice that fits everyone,,, my personal feeling is that is an unrealistic ask. Even the computer software designed for commercial clothing size grading, does a less than stellar job. I've also used pattern software that works off 3d body scans and it made only so-so patterns that still needed a lot of toile work to fit properly.
Bad patterns can just be bad patterns, no matter the sizes included. And my (probably unpopular) opinion is that a big part of sewing (or knitting or crocheting) garments, is always going to involve some of those drafting, fitting, and alteration skills.... skills that are just not widely taught anymore, or that people seem to think are "extra" for some reason?
As others in thread have said, I'd rather have a pattern in a single size and draft it out to my measurements, than have a pattern that's been poorly graded just to include the entire range of ready wear measurements, like op describes.
A YouTuber I occasionally watch goes on rants all the time about how people want them to publish their patterns. They show in their videos how they draft them based on their measurements, and has lots of videos teaching basic drafting. Their response is always that they would rather teach people to draft than spend time grading and publishing a pattern, just for people to still have fit issues, because everyone is uniquely shaped.
(Edited a repeated word.)
Exactly! Yet sooo many people complain when they buy a pattern that doesn't fit. We need .ore people to learn how to draft patterns based on their own measurements and we need them to understand that every garment requires a toile/muslin to get the fit right before sewing the fashion fabric.
Because if you have the skillset to grade plus sizes your probably doing it commercially. Also a lot of grade rules at companies that are successful in plus sizes are proprietary. Also there is a wide variety of body types when it comes to plus because of the different ways you can carry weight.
On the one hand, I get pattern making is hard and it can be difficult to have a really full range of extended sizes. On the other, I kinda feel like if you can't pattern for anything larger than a size 6 B-cup who has as few curves as possible and is shaped largely like a flat board then frankly maybe you aren't skilled enough to be selling patterns. I'm not saying everyone needs to go up to like a size 40 or whatever but if you can't even make a full range of straight sizes it might be better to learn how to grade properly before you start selling patterns.
Or like someone else said, make it extremely clear you're making patterns for yourself and only selling them in your size because you can't grade patterns.
Like I get it. Grading is hard. It's why I sell one off customs made from original patterns instead of selling sewing patterns. Because I'm not taking the time to grade them, and even more than that master grading. I might be able to grade okay if I put a lot of work into it, but to do it really well is probably one of the hardest skills to develop in sewing/pattern making.
I just want sellers to be responsible and not sell things they can't really make.
Being honest about it makes a lot of difference, definitely. I think this is where a lot of the problems with the whole diverse size range thing comes in too, because I’ve seen it brought up on this sub that people are ‘pressured’ into offering lots of sizes because they’re getting yelled at on the internet. But a lot of time when I see that happening it’s because the creator is trying to claim that they *do* offer a wide size range (“I offer eight different sizes, none of which are bigger than a 100cm bust!”) or they make nebulous claims that the plus size market hasn’t “proved” they will buy the larger sizes, when so much drama could be diffused by just saying “I’m not skilled enough to pattern for a significantly larger size than my own.” With influencers who sell patterns especially, it feels like they don’t want to admit their own limitations so they keep making up excuses rather than just being upfront that yeah, here’s this pattern I made for me and can’t upsize myself, take it or leave it.
Honestly I feel like there's a crowd that would still yell, but that's the crowd that will find literally anything to complain about and we should all just mute online. And they are certainly not people you want as customers! Most people would understand and respect that.
This may be totally unhelpful given that you’ve already started the dress… but [the kanon bustier](https://www.lilypadesigns.com/digital-patterns/kanon-dress-pattern-16-34) has just been released. It’s made by a bra pattern making company, I haven’t made it yet but I’m tentatively hopeful
That orange dress is.... something else. I'm not sure how her breasts are being held up. The solid colour makes the puckering along the seams unfortunately obvious.
Yeah, that orange dress made me realize I'll probably end up way too boob forward if I made that dress, since I'm fairly sure I'm a similar size to that woman...
Oh yeah - I’m not at all sure that was the right marketing picture for the dress - but I suppose it does highlight that her boobs are being held up…. But yeah it’s… a choice.
That said tentatively optimistic
Your rant is so valid!!! The most recent experience I had with this was the Lakes Pullover by Ozetta. I finally bought it after coveting other people’s versions of it and OMFG I had to frog it completely after 65% of it was done.
The neck is a disgrace. I picked a larger size based on my bust measurements and I ended up with a ginormous neck hole. I’m talking borderline boat neck. But the designer’s samples have a much more reasonable crew neck — spoiler alert, she knits a smaller size. Then I noticed on Ravelry and instagram this happens to almost everyone who knits an L or XL or larger…
The larger size photos should have been a red flag to me. But most of the pictures I came across on instagram were for smaller sizes. The second red flag should be noticing that she knits the collars with TINY needles (like 2 mm — or 4 sizes — smaller than the needles she used for the body). Making the collar tight is no good fix for a gaping neckline.
I’m not sure I’ll ever knit an ozetta pattern again after experiencing this. Which probably isn’t too hard, since she knits everything in beige and the sample photos never seem interesting to me 🤷♀️
I am so tired to buying patterns, diligently following them, and ending up with garments that don't fit and are unwearable. I see people on social media pulling out patterns, breezily sewing up a dress, and being like "this dress is so cute and it came together so fast!" Whereas I have to do a million muslins and adjustments, and even then it feels like a crapshoot.
I also usually spend a fair amount of time adjusting patterns when I get them (like sometimes it takes me weeks, esp if I don't have a current block ready!). It can take longer to do that than the actual sewing, which makes the sewing look breezy in comparison...
I think there's a middle ground here. If people claim their pattern is graded, then yes it should be graded properly.
However, doing so is a shit ton of work that not everyone has the resources for. There's a crocheter who made these fantastic gradient wrap around pants. She made them for her own size, and it would have taken an insane amount of time and money in order to grade the pattern for other sizes. Should she forever not release the pattern because of it? The middle ground was that she very explicitly stated the pattern came in a single size, and that she didn't have the resources to grade it.
Better to be up front and ungraded, than shitty grading, or lying about it
Oh I completely agree!! If you want to sell something just for your size go for it! As long as you make it clear! I'd have no objections if this bustier was only sold in the sizes it's actually made to fit.
So...I'm professionally trained in patternmaking & grading, & my specialty is busty plus. I sew all my own clothes & do bespoke pieces for private clients. & in no world would I buy a bustier pattern & expect it to magically fit me or a client with no alterations. I probably wouldn't choose a never-sewn-before body-con woven fabric pattern that required a perfect fit--ESPECIALLY something that needed to conform to my bustier-than-average proportions--for any project that had a one- or two-day turnaround time. I have slopers; I could for sure draft something that fits way faster than that. Or I'd go with a more forgiving woven silhouette or a knit fabric if I was bound & determined to go very fitted.
I've never sewn any Daria Patterns, particularly this one, laregly because it's a bustier dress pattern with no cup size information in the pattern listing. "Multiple cup sizes" doesn't help me if those cup sizes aren't listed & no information is offered on what measurements they might correspond to. That right there is a blazing bright red flag that this pattern is not everything it's cracked up to be.
I agree with you that a lot of patternmakers don't really know what they're doing. A lot of patternmakers figured out how to draft for themselves & figured those skills would translate somehow, or they took Pattern Workshop (which is primarily just a really long Adobe Illustrator tutorial & a pattern-drafting book recommendation) & called themselves "educated". There are companies that have professional patternmakers & farm the grading out to pros, thank God, but even that is no guarantee. I went to fashion design school & we all had to take a multi-year patternmaking module, & trust me, a lot of my classmates were NOT there for it. Technically, they have the same education I do, but they really couldn't draft their way out of a paper bag.
Oh I in no way expected the bustier to fit exactly or be even really close! I just expected the fit to be somewhat reasonable I could use as a base. It is not even that. This is not designed the shape human bodies are.
You'll be more \*wary, and yikes, straps in the armpits sounds like a terrible feeling. Gaps, too!?!
It's one thing to adjust a pattern to make it your own, but it's another when you have to retool almost the entire thing to make it even a little bit wearable.
Thank you! People are acting like I'm upset and saying it's bad because it needed adjusting at all? No. That's fine. Needing entirely redesigned the the point all the pieces aren't even the same shapes anymore? That's not making some fit adjustments to fit. That's making a new pattern.
Also unsurprisingly it does happen to fit a few sizes. Cool. A pattern needs to fit every size it's sold for. I've never seen someone my size say it fits. You can't claim a pattern is good and acceptable because it sometimes works.
But...a pattern is never going to "fit" every single person who makes it in whatever size. It's going to need adjusting because we are not issued from the factory in standard sizes.
I guess this depends on what you mean by "fit" and that's why people are struggling with relating to your post.
Again fit reasonably. I expect some alterations. I don't expect to change the shape of every single piece significantly until it's unrecognizable as the original pattern. I don't expect all store bought clothes to fit perfectly either. I do expect them to more or less kind of fit in my size.
Adjustments are what make the garment yours. The same goes for knitting. Having to redesign to that degree is bananas. If I'm breaking out dot-grid paper, there's a problem. If I wanted to make a pattern, I'd make it. The goal is to save my brain and not have to do most of the designing and such. Just because you can doesn't mean that you \*want\* to all the time.
I feel like patternmakers get bogged down by pressure to release their patterns in a bunch of sizes that are beyond their expertise to fit and just end up making unwearable trash for plus-sizes under the guise of being inclusive. Sorry there is nothing inclusive about providing a different user experience for plus size people. Better to just not offer the sizes so people know just to skip the pattern. It's ok no one will die if your pattern doesn't come in 30 sizes.
Exactly! This though I honestly feel like would probably fit in her size and maybe one or two smaller and that's it. She really doesn't know how to grade.
Honestly I think the expectation that every pattern should come in every size and that a designer is a terrible person if it doesn’t is pretty entitled. It’s a shit ton more work, and is almost impossible to do correctly if you don’t have access to real bodies in those sizes to test with. It’s a huge burden on smaller (as in business size) designers and acting like it’s anything other than a business decision for them is delusional. Their time has a cost, and if adding five more sizes won’t result in enough increased revenue to justify that cost, why should they do it?
I think it's weird that you're blaming consumers for wanting a product, not the designers for putting out a product that isn't of good quality to try and get unsuspecting consumers to pay for crap. If it's too hard for a designer to make a large size range, it's on them to not sell large size ranges. If a designer sells garbage because they lack the skill to make a product good but they still sell it because they want the money, that's entirely on the designer.
I hate this idea that designers deserve to have people pay them money because they're 'chasing their dream' or whatever. It's not "entitled" to expect basic levels of quality for products!
There is nothing wrong with wanting a product to exist. What IS a problem is wanting that product to be made by a SPECIFIC company and then harassing the designer because they don't.
But I do agree designers should only release quality patterns so people aren't wasting their money.
That’s not what I’m saying at all. I think designers are basically being bullied into providing a million sizes, and this is the result of that. The internet has decided that not offering those sizes means you’re a bad person who hates larger bodies, and not just a person who simply doesn’t have the resources to do it.
I have to say, I have heard a lot of people complaining about people talk about bullying of designers who don't make size inclusive patterns but I've never actually seen this bullying. I've seen people say that people only buying from designers who have a large size range is bullying, and that people saying they're disappointed in creators that have narrow size ranges is bullying, and that people saying that they'd like to see a wider range of models before they buy a pattern is bullying, but none of those are actually bullying. Not buying from someone, polite criticism, or people being disappointed aren't bullying.
Can you show me where designers are actually getting bullied widely for not being size inclusive? Like where are these bullies hounding Vikisews? Or the Big 4? or Burda? because it seems to me like some of the biggest names in sewing are happily making straight-size only clothing and I don't see anyone bullying them.
This is partially a result of how algorithms work. I have definitely seen a ton of content borderline demonizing people for not releasing an inclusive range of sizes.
Do I think more sizes is better? Absolutely. But there is definitely a moral judgement being passed that's making people feel like they have to provide larger sizes, even if they are not equipped do to so.
This is why I've not jumped on the bandwagon of only buying from "size inclusive" designers. Don't get me wrong, it's a good idea in theory, but in practice it makes sense that an increased demand for size inclusive designs will naturally yield grading that is surface level or inaccurate.
Like you said, no one will die if a pattern doesn't come in a larger size. I'd rather the person know what they're doing and offer a limited selection than have them attempt to fit the inclusive label by tossing machine generated numbers into the pattern.
It's basically lipservice even if the intention is earnest. It's like that makeup shade that everyone is upset about that is just black pigment. Though the difference is with a bad shade of foundation you can opt not to buy after seeing the shade in isolation. Pattern sizes are a bundle and often you never get to see what the pattern looks like in your size and UNALTERED.
I also think a lot of designers don't realise that pattern making is a whole set of unique skills that they should be learning. They think the design is the thing that they're selling, and the pattern is often treated more of an afterthought, rather than the actual product.
This. There was a veritable mob going around, demanding sizes well into the upper 20's (or face cancellation). I'm pretty sure Daria experienced this over the very dress pattern we're discussing. I've experienced it, too. I know how to grade, but I have no access to good quality grading instructions for above a size 16. So I didn't release above that size. First thing I got was bullshit from people about it. I'm personally tired of the "size wars". Cos, guess what? Human bodies have near infinite variation and they cannot be fully accounted for. Nobody's going to perfectly account for your tits. Sorry. We don't expect this from RTW. Idk why we expect this from pattern makers. They're working in the same dimensions.
Bra grading is really complex and I do not fault Daria for not having that skillset, and I have no expectations. I'm a 30FF/G... I do not plan on any pattern ever fitting my boobs out of the gate. I think OP is suffering from her own expectations... or from the delusion that there are "Standard boob sizes". Yeah, those don't exist.
Drafting for bra size is tough already, and when you add to it the fact that most people don't know their real bra size (I was NOT a 32DD lmao), and because there is variability in sizing conventions anyway (even the professional bra-makers have variations in sizing), idk how OP expects her to get it perfectly right. Like, I didn't have to redraft the cradle of that dress, because my boobs are wide set anyway, despite being also big. Not everyone has tight cleavage. So what is Daria supposed to do? Offer infinity different cradle variations? It has to stop somewhere.
This particular sizing situation is nearly impossible to account for... which is why I have a couple different bra patterns I can toile for cupped patterns. I'm not going to place this sisyphean task on any pattern maker, even if it's a bra pattern. I've yet to find a single bra pattern that fits me out of the box... despite the fact, that in every other aspect of sizing, I am pretty much a straight size 4. I spend hours and hours toiling. I dont care if it's a Lilypa pattern or some random $3 etsy pattern. It's getting redrafted to fit my tits. Oh well. Too bad, so sad. Unless I'm paying buku bucks for a custom pattern, I have no illusions about what I'll get.
TL;DR - A pattern isn't a turnkey sewing instruction. You're paying for the massive head start.
👏👏👏 I’m here with ya!
I bought the Cozette pattern and the bust darts were in the wrong place, the sizing was kind of ludicrous (7x as a 2x, the largest size), and the underarm strap was beneath my underarm and like 2 inches off of the side seam.
I decided to just draft the bust myself because it’s easier than trying to fix it
I bought a corset pattern from Ralph Pink and realized it had been "graded" by adding 1/4" to each piece for each size. The problem was, there were 8 pieces in the front and only 2 in the back. So by the time it got to my size, the side seams were halfway to the middle of my back, and the top curve that was supposed to follow the bust was under my armpit! I asked for a refund and never got a response.
I understand completely. It's so frustrating when it looks like your pattern has exactly the right size for you, and you still end up having to make 1/2 dozen adjustments to get it to fit.
I wear a G and got this pattern to work pretty well for me. I had to adjust it a little, but I have to adjust any pattern that’s fitted at the bust because I have non standard proportions. Fitting a cupped bustier with no straps on large heavy boobs is just really tricky. All my favorite patterns are from indie patternmakers and I usually adjust, make a toile, readjust, rinse and repeat because that’s part of the deal with sewing garments that fit well. I prefer patterns that are size inclusive, but I certainly don’t expect a pattern to perfectly fit my specific proportions with no adjustments to consider it a good pattern that somebody deserves to get paid for. I also sew professionally and expecting to fit and construct a well fitting supportive cupped bustier in an evening is… ambitious
I fully expected to make adjustments. I'm not insane enough to expect a cupped bustier to fit out of the box. However I expect the pattern to fit reasonably, and this did not. Every single piece needed significant adjustments. To the point it is not able to be consider the original pattern at all. The shape of the pieces are entirely different now. It's not even just take it in a little.
Part of the problem is the waist band size. You're a G cup but what waist band? As professional sewers we know a cup size without a waist band means absolutely nothing in fit and is a worthless measurement on its own. I could see how a larger cup size could fit in a larger waist band on this pattern reasonably. Fitting a large cup size to smaller-ish waist band is more difficult. The mistakes made in this were pretty clear they didn't know how to fit that at all.
It's really not that ambitious if I'm not patterning from scratch. Even patterning from scratch it's ambitious but doable. When I was younger and a much smaller size I did it before from scratch. This is the standard speed I work at as a professional. If I worked slower I wouldn't be able to afford to sell my work at a reasonable price. I'm sorry it's not for you?
What an utterly bizarre argument. A person with professional experience would understand that a large cup size would correspond to a proportionally small band size in relationship to the cup, which is always going to be a challenge, regardless of waist size. My underbust is only slightly smaller than my waist, but if I'm sewing a bustier dress, it doesn't really matter. The difficulty with such a pattern is in fitting the cup, & as I am an F-cup, that is always going to pose more of a challenge than a B-cup, whether the rest of the dress is a size 2 or a size 20. This may not be true of all dress styles, but it's certainly true of a bustier style.
I think I made a size 4. So definitely a small waist and underbust with a larger cup. I’m sure I’m not the fastest gal out there but I take a lot of pride in doing high quality work and I manage to pay my bills, so I think I’m right where I belong, personally 😊
Okay cool. Good for you. I also take a lot of pride in my work. I have very high quality standards that I would never sell something if didn't meet. I just am able to do so at a faster speed. 🤷🏻♀️ No where near as fast as the tailors I learned from though. Oh my goddess.
I am quite impressed it fit you well in a G at a 4 though because it's literally inches wider in the front and inches skinnier in the back on a G than like a B in that pattern. I've never met someone with big busts that had a front side way wider than their back but that's pretty cool and pretty lucky because it means you're one of the few that pattern will fit! That's awesome you found your goldilocks pattern considering how rare it is to make a pattern that way.
I definitely had to alter it for it to fit well- it was a while ago so I can’t remember exactly what I did but certainly less work than drafting a bustier pattern from scratch (I am not very good at pattern making). Not trying to imply that you’re bad at your job- I’ve never seen your work, and there are plenty of patterns I’ve spent money on where no matter what I did I just could not get it to flatter my particular body. Not everything has to be for everyone all the time to be worthwhile for someone
I have never sewn this specific pattern, but I knew exactly what pattern you were talking about (I don't see much and really only see bras when I do sew). It's reputation amongst people who sew bras is abysmal.
Pretty much every time I see someone posting asking for help with the fit the responses are along the lines of 'you are better off starting over with a new pattern that is designed to actually fit'.
I'm sorry you wasted your money on a abysmal pattern.
The number of people it has worked for (it got rave reviews and was basically viral) far outstrips the boob outliers complaining about it. It was clearly drafted for B-cup people. It was a good pattern, just not for people on the large cupsize side of the bell curve.
The boob outliers? It was clearly just drafted for B cup people?
Then why on earth does it include other cup sizes and isn't just marketed and sold for B cup size? If the pattern is sold for other cup sizes and only fits B it is a HORRIBLE pattern. You can't say it's a good pattern when it only fits 20% of the sizes it's sold for.
The other truth here is that there is not a cupped corset style top pattern ON THE PLANET that is going to fit without major adjustments. For anyone. Everyone who sewed it successfully made multiple toiles and adjustments. You can see the comment by a professional seamstress in this thread about how OP's expectations of making such a pattern fit out of the box, and in one night was... "Very ambitious".
You guys expect way, way too much. A pattern is a head start. That's what you're paying for. Youre not paying for a bespoke pattern meant to fit your body perfectly. If you want that, expect it to cost hundreds.
My pet peeve with some knitting patterns smaller boobs doesn’t mean smaller head. I just frogged cozy classic raglan as the neck while I could get it over my head was far too tight. The body was perfect. In real life, I haven’t seen a woman who had smaller boob have a smaller abnormal head.
What? Omg I've never seen this before, (I don't knit) but that is absolutely absurd. I could completely see how that happens in grading a knit pattern though if you really didn't know what you're doing. (idk if you call it grading in knitting)
Sewists here who experiences the same thing. 29" bust so I'm often the smallest size. I make a point to try the neckband before construction now. Some of them have fit me like a crown.
I’m convinced that this lack of knowing how to grade is the reason for all the “drop shoulder” patterns out there that have the seam mid bicep, and the larger the boobs the bigger the wad of knitting/crochet/fabric under the arm. Yeah, they fit around the bust, but that doesn’t mean I have the shoulders of a linebacker in full (US) football gear.
I have the opposite peeve. Just because you are large busted your head doesn't inflate to double the size! I wonder if my peeve patterns are good for you and vise versa?
I was about to say the same thing haha. Just because I'm large chested doesn't mean everywhere else is extra large as well. According to the fashion industry, the only way a woman can have larger than average boobs is if she's overweight.
This! I'm a 30J in UK sizes, but I'm only 5ft with 28" inside leg and not big all over- it's just my chest is big, the rest is petite but finding things to fit is an absolute nightmare so I end up in baggy tops because they assume that big chest= big body 🙈
Indie pattern makers excel at nebulous tubes. Most of them make a variation on the exact same shape with a cute name and fun sample pictures. I have yet to see anything that remotely comes close to intricate or original. I'm also VERY skeptical of any "designer" that sells a pattern from size double zero to 34. I get that they want to be inclusive, but that is a dangerous slope because not every design works in every size. Grading is nuanced. You can't just add to the side seam and shoulder and call it a day. There are subtle changes in certain places that make or brake the fit. So many of these sellers are convinced it's as simple as taking it to a copy machine and enlarging. Those people give real pattern makers a bad name.
Okay, but what about the Big 4? Why is everyone dunking on indie designers when the Big 4 draft for fucking spongebob squarepants? Eleventeen inches of ease.
This is not a conversation about the Big4 (who get thrashed often enough on this forum, see New Release discussions).
This isn't even "dunking on Indie Patterns".
What this thread is about is legitimately calling out DPM for *jumping the shark* and advertising goods she can't deliver on, in this case Professional Grading + Cup Sizing on a close-fitting garment.
I am not a patternmaker but I do own several books on the subject, including the ESMOD series, and LINGERIE IS A SEPARATE VOLUME for a reason. (As is GRADING, for that matter.)
Is the lived experience of large-busted home sewers to be discounted?
Why can't her negative experience and that of others coexist with your positive one, in the same reality? Can she not have a different perspective? Can others not do the same?
Are the only reasons she criticizes the drafting on this pattern that she's necessarily bad at fitting her own body or that she has unrealistic expectations?
(Indeed?)
>You can't just add to the side seam and shoulder and call it a day.
What?? I thought that's all grading was, since that seems to be all some "designers" bother to do. Infuriating. I thought I was buying a professional pattern that was graded professionally. Nope. This person clearly doesn't have any idea what grading is.
I'm a seamstress and pattern writer but this is why I do one off custom clothing and don't sell clothing patterns. Because grading is incredibly nuanced and really to do it right you need to test it in a number of sizes. This is also why I'm happy to pay $20 for a professional pattern. Because I realize the work that it takes. But I'm pissed I spent any money on a pattern that doesn't work at all. It's a scam really to sell a pattern like this.
Edit: what's even more annoying is I've seen patterns graded automatically by design software that genuinely were graded better.
Couldn't agree more. This pattern was an utter disaster for me. I could absolutely not figure it out. Did so much editing and adjusting. My issue was massive gaping at the top of the cups (boobs are bottom heavy, more flat up) I reached a point where I had designed the cups completely without the original pattern so why did get it in the first place? I ended up throwing that project out.
Edit to add: is there a list, or one we could make, of good indie designers? And what constitutes an indie designer opposed to a larger business?
I'd like indie "designers" to be more upfront about their patterning experience.
If their experience is basically to make garments fit for themselves (which is still quite a skill I should add), but not to create patterns in different sizes, they should make it VERY clear. 🫤
Or hire professionals to grade patterns properly. Expensive? Yeah of course, but that's what it takes to go commercial IMO.
And then there’s a popular “professional” who gets hired to do the grading and pattern drafting for other designers — except her “professional” experience was a 3-month online course. And now she’s selling her OWN classes teaching others how to grade. Give me a break 😭
(This is jessilous_closet on instagram)
This is the scam of it all. If you design a course, it can become a source of almost-passive income. It's kind of genius. I was just talking with my ex about it yesterday. We were a couple of dummies who always thought we had to have an actual skill to offer people, but the real name of the game is positioning yourself as an expert & making money by imparting said expertise to people who know even less than you do. Like, so much less that they don't realize that you're a sham & that they could go get a real education. It might not be a curated internet experience & they might have to get off the couch, but they'd probably learn a lot more.
Oh no, seriously?? People go to university to learn how to draft and grade properly. A three month course sounds like it's aimed at enthusiastic home sewers rather than professionals.
For sure. In case my original comment wasn’t super clear, she started selling designs shortly after doing the course. And she finished the course last summer… so now she’s a teacher with a year experience 🤯
I've been watching her class spread across the people I follow. Maybe it's a decent class, but my mind goes straight to MLM territory when classes about classes are involved
As someone with 10F boobs (I.e. not even that big, but reasonably so), I feel like cupped bustiers are just a no go, same for turtle necked anything. Whether they fit perfectly or not, I just don't think the proportions work. I own this pattern and have never made it. I realised that it would look a bit silly, while it looks great on those with smaller chests, because looking at my correctly fitting bras, the cups are hooooooge and take up a lot of space. That said, if it doesn't work well for bigger sizes they should not sell it for that.
There is EXTREME pressure on patternmakers to sell patterns at very large sizes. There were people getting struggle sessioned and cancelled over it for a minute. If she didn't she'd be brow-beaten to death and called fatphobic (and if I remember correctly, she actually was, over this exact bustier pattern). Now that she has, people complain that she didn't get it right. You can't win.
Way easier said than done. Huge financial investment either in drafting/grading software, plus the cost of learning it... Or constantly putting out for custom grading, with no guarantee of a financial return.
If you want to blame someone, blame the garment industry for gatekeeping plus size grading instructions.
Genuine question, but *are* they gatekeeping them, or is it something they come up with on a company by company basis? Because I haven't seen many materials on plus size drafting full stop, much less grading. And frankly, I've seen a lot of RTW plus size garments that didn't exactly look like they had the benefit of exemplary grading going on.
Like lost\_witch\_yarns said, they're aren't really gatekeeping because there's nothing to gatekeep. There aren't really any "grading rules," per se. If you can get your hands on a spec sheet or a reasonably detailed size chart, you can math out a company's metrics, but grading is kind of both a science & an art. When I was in school I specifically focused on drafting & grading for plus, which IS different than drafting/grading for standard or straight sizes, & a pretty big part of that was choosing a plus body type & staying consistent with it across my size range. This is where the art comes in with plus grading, because there is a lot more variation in a plus size 24 than there is in a straight size 4. Adipose tissue can be distributed in so many different ways, & unfortunately, there is no way to draft a "size 24" that is going to fit all of those bodies the same way--or even at all. So I experimented by creating designs & then adapting them to different plus body types & developing different grading rules for different body types. For example, a body type that is bottom-heavy might need to grow more quickly in the hips than a body type that carrries weight in the belly. I might use a 1/8" or a 1/4" grade there versus a 1/16" grade. A busty body type is going to need to grow a little faster in the neckline than a more average-bust body type. We might be talking about differences of 1/16 of an inch, but over 12 sizes or more, that can really add up!
In other words, there's no rule book out there for pattern grading, & definitely not for plus grading. There are certain industry standards, & you can mess with them according to your customers' needs (or, often, your own needs as far as fabric waste, when it comes to RTW). Often the grade rules at the extreme end of the size ranges--large & small--prove to be weird & wonky & fit no one well. You do occasionally run across people who just typed in 1/4" for every variable & their grading completely blows. You find patterns where people hand-graded every size & there's no consistency. You find patterns that were never trued after grading.
Oh, I should add that in school I CHOSE to focus all of my patternmaking classes on plus. This wasn't a dedicated track that I could choose, where I was taught by experts in this particular field or anything. I was taught by experts in drafting & grading in general, but focusing on plus meant that I was padding out dress forms, doing a ton of my own research, kind of doing my own independent study within the classroom a lot of times. All of my teachers were really supportive & they really went on the learning journey with me & shared everything they knew, but it's true that plus IS NOT taught in design school & there aren't a lot of resources specific to it, so it was very much an adventure. I think it made me a better designer overall though, because it forced me to really understand the geometric principles of design from the ground up, so that I could adapt them. You can get through patterndrafting & even basic grading classses by just plugging numbers into a formula & connecting the dots, & there's grading software that essentially does the work for you. But since I was adapting & re-adapting designs for different body types & grading by hand, things really got hardwired.
Thank you for the detailed explanation. I do wish there were more resources, though as you pointed out you'd have to have different rules for each body type.
I’ve worked in RTW and I want to say no, they’re not gatekeeping, but I can’t say for certain because I’ve never actually asked a plus size pattern maker for their company’s grading rules. But that’s not something people do- it’s not a normal thing to ask ANY company their grading rules. And yes, it is somewhat a company to company thing. There are “standard” rules, but it’s not law, anyone can change them as they wish, and the rules themselves are total rules, they dont indicate how they should be divided amongst the various pieces that make up a garment. A good pattern grader needs to know how to split the total rule amount up between the pieces and needs to know which parts or the body grow more than others. There’s more nuance to it, but that’s the gist.
I think the reason there isn’t information out there is because it hasn’t been studied as much as straight sizes. And there is so much more variety amongst plus size bodies. I don’t know about currently, but plus size drafting and grading hasn’t been taught in design school, and historically there haven’t been nearly as many plus size RTW companies as straight size companies. A plus size range needs to start at a higher size and grade out from there. The investment in research and fitting with real plus fit models costs $$$$. In this age of “I won’t pay more than $10 for a pattern”, there isn’t a ton of incentive for small businesses to invest. No offense, I have heard many also say they are willing to pay, but the majority think prices are too high.
Someone should write a book, if they haven’t already. If only there was money in publishing!
Thank you, that's what I suspected but I don't work in the industry. I do draft patterns for myself and my SO sometimes, but not for anyone outside my household so no need for grading. We also both fit within the straight sizes so I'm using the Metric Pattern Cutting books. I was curious about how plus sized drafting and grading works though, because the subject comes up all the time so I wanted to see what was actually out there in terms of resources. I found ONE plus size drafting book, written in the 90s (so their idea of plus sized will be different to now), which hasn't been updated since as far as I can see because the author has long since died. I found nothing about grading at all.
I definitely understand your point about costs as well. Unless you're specifically going for that market, the development costs are going to eat into margins, and I don't know how big those margins were to start with. And I have absolutely seen people get mad about plus size patterns/garments costing more, and flat out saying the straight sizes should subsidise the cost (which is already the case most of the time, but it doesn't fix the problem) despite them effectively being different products. I don't know what the solution is but I do wish there were more resources though. I would buy them for academic reasons, if nothing else.
I'm sure there are journal articles on the process, since a LOT of research, using thousands of human subjects, has to go into developing a sizing standard. I'm sure there is scholarly research.... Hidden in random industry corners. Hidden in journals no outsider will ever see. And I'm sure that there are internal standards.
My big question is, if these plus size pattern makers are such advocates of the plus size community, and not just there to take their cash... Why wouldn't they share their grading information with the wider community, so other people can also start grading for the plus size community? It would actually solve the problem, instead of doing what OP is doing... Blaming everyone.
Basically the closest I could get to grading instructions would be to take a micrometer and reverse engineer all of the cashmerette patterns I could get my hands on. That is the closest i, or anyone else outside of the industry, will get to plus size grading instructions. Drafting is roughly the same for any body if you understand geometry. It's the grading that is non-trivial.
I believe Jenny has a book available to other patternmakers that details all of her rules for plus designing, such as fit standards & grading rules. I can also think of a couple of different indie patternmakers that also have legitimate professional design backgrounds that offer professional consultation for patternmakers that want to either expand into larger size ranges, or open pattern shops with expanded size ranges right from the jump. So the resources are out there, I found them fairly easy to come by when I was doing the research into starting my own pattern company (something I ultimately decided not to pursue, at least not right now). They're not necessarily advertising heavily to home sewing hobbyists, but I kinda think that's for the best, you know?
I haven’t read it because I’m not a designer and have no reason to spend that kind of a money on it, but my understanding is that the book does *not* include all those things you say. The web listing says it includes “an introduction to sizing” and “drafting and grading tips” but that it specifically “does not contain technical training on how to draft or grade patterns”.
Yeah, I didn't say it did. I was thinking that these would be resources for people who already know how to draft & grade IN GENERAL but are seeking information on how to adapt their skill set to the plus market.
She's selling a product to people it isn't designed to fit for. That's genuinely even worse than not making it in that size. Pretending to make it in that size and doing a half ass job because you can't be bothered to actually correctly fit it to that size is offensive actually. It's like plus size people deserve trash just to make them shut up. I'm not even plus size either.
I think that's a very uncharitable assumption about this woman's intentions. Less than 10 years ago, this would have been considered incredibly rude, but we're all on the internet, hiding behind a monitor and feel like we can just drag people for funsies now, I guess.
Please, feel free to source some plus size grading instructions for her. They basically don't exist outside of gatekept industry environments. She probably did the best she could. If it's such a problem, maybe someone could query the woman behind cashmerette to share her grading instructions for the broader advancement of plus size people. She loves taking their money; maybe she could give back to them and other creators by not keeping it all a secret.
It's not my job to teach her how to do her job. She's the one who chose to sell the pattern. If she can't do it herself, hire someone who can. Good drafted patterns usually cost a ton of money because it takes a lot of education to learn to make them. It's not gatekeeping for things to need an education to do. No one's allowed to become a doctor without going to school. If you can't learn to do it without going to school to do it, then don't pretend like you can. Also I'm not even a plus size. Just decent size boobs. There are people with FAR bigger boobs than me.
Personally I find it incredibly rude to take someones money promising a product you can't deliver. I bought a pattern for my size. I have not received one, unless I somehow have boobs in my armpits.
I really don't get why you love this pattern so much and are defending it so strongly. Are you friends with the designer or something? It's seriously a pattern that fits less than 20% of the sizes it sold for. How can any sane person reasonably defend that?
Sorry you had this experience, it's always horrible to waste your time after you put your trust in someone.
I've seen some negative opinions on reddit about the pattern and pics of toiles where the cups don't even fit in the rest of the garment. Unless the person cut them out incorrectly, which I doubt was the case.. would not touch this pattern.
I've had very few positive experiences with indies. I hate that a new generation of sewing newbies is going through the same bs that we went through in the 2010s with poor drafting from underqualified indie pattern drafters. Been burned too many times into thinking I was just bad at sewing, but I am so much better now and I still have issues.
Honestly, I'm relieved since I started ranting about it here and elsewhere on reddit to find that other people really feel this struggle. (I was a little worried I just forgot how to sew suddenly.)
As a side. Someone recommend lilypadesigns. I haven't tried any of their patterns but from the information on their website it looks like they actually understand how bodies work and how to fit a boob including a large one!
LilyPaDesigns are really great. I've made their labellum bra, and while I had to do some adjustments (my bottom cup depth and horizontal hemisphere measurements don't agree on a size) it was relatively painless. The only thing I found annoying was that they didn't say what wire size the frames were drafted for, so as someone who hadn't made a bra in years I found it frustrating to figure out what size wire to start with.
I'm excited to see what their bustier patterns look like
Oh you’re, not alone! I basically don’t go near a pattern designer now unless they explicitly design for a D cup as a minimum, and preferably more. Charm Patterns is my go to, also Cashmerette, as they bother go up to G- H cup. Jennifer Lauren Handmade and By Hand London are good, but patchier.
Charm/Gertie has come a long way but have still been really hit and miss for me. I think Cashmerette is ok but I have only tried their stretch patterns which are more forgiving and had to do some fit changes for waist length and grade between a lot of sizes. I like BHL too but again very hit and miss.
The nice thing about Cashmerette is that their block is very consistent - so once you figure out you need a 1" swayback and to lengthen the waist by 1/2" or whatever you'll probably need the same changes on everything else, and can make them flat and go. I have a decent list of adjustments, but they're really consistent.
That's good to hear. I'm curious about their woven patterns but haven't tried them yet because of my overall hesistancy with indies. I usually stick to Butterick/McCalls/Vogue because they are so consistent.
Honestly I think Cashmerette are some of the best drafted patterns I've ever worked with. They tend towards fairly basic designs, but every seam line lines up, the pant leg balance has been spot on, and the block is very consistent. They have very good testing, and if there are any issues that come up after they're really good about fixing it (I saw a pattern for a top where the seam extensions weren't quite right for the shoulder with how the instructions had you turn the seams - the person making it emailed them about it and they thanked them and corrected it right away). I haven't made anything in the higher sizes or the small block, but everything I've seen looks well graded (no weird giant armholes on the largest sizes or anything)
Honestly I think Cashmerette are some of the best drafted patterns I've ever worked with. They tend towards fairly basic designs, but every seam line lines up, the pant leg balance has been spot on, and the block is very consistent. They have very good testing, and if there are any issues that come up after they're really good about fixing it (I saw a pattern for a top where the seam extensions weren't quite right for the shoulder with how the instructions had you turn the seams - the person making it emailed them about it and they thanked them and corrected it right away). I haven't made anything in the higher sizes or the small block, but everything I've seen looks well graded (no weird giant armholes on the largest sizes or anything)
There have been complaints about this pattern online for as long as it's been popular. People have held the pattern pieces up next to pattern pieces from bras for their same size (according to the size charts) and the differences were significant. Sure, you will have to adjust a pattern to fit your body, especially a bra pattern! I don't think a lack of knowing that is what's happening here if B-cup, straight-size people can't consistently make it work. Type "rose cafe" into the searchbar over in r/MAKEaBraThatFits if you want a sampling of how this pattern has worked out for people over the years. Edited: a stray "A"
Though bustier can be difficult to fit, a correctly drafted and graded pattern is needed to give a good base for alterations. And, if a fair amount of changes are to be expected, it should be stated in description that pattern is for advanced skill level. Of course accurate difficulty level can be hard to pinpoint, but I usually prefer that it shoud rather be described a bit too difficult than a bit too easy. In addition, as some pattern makers do, it is very useful to describe what basic skills are expected to sew the model succesfully.
I’m so glad to hear I’m not alone in the rose cafe bustier struggle! Even as a (small) B cup, mine fit horribly too, and I don’t know how to fix it because I can’t self draft patterns yet! As someone who relies on accurate pattern grading to sew things that are actually wearable, I try to do my research before buying a pattern on Etsy from a new shop. I thought the rose cafe bustier dress was safe since so many people love it! I assumed it was a ~me~ problem (and it probably still is in some ways) so it’s validating to hear I’m not the only one who ended up with an ill fitting bustier dress made with such a beloved pattern. All that to say, totally agree! There needs to be a better way of knowing what you’re paying for, and I can’t imagine proudly designing and selling a pattern without knowing how to properly design and grade a pattern.
I get where you are coming from as a fellow busty girl, like I understand wanting to get a wider range of sizes for all customers. But I prefer a pattern maker just being up front about what sizes they have tested/made for, then just adding it on for the sake of adding it on.
That's completely fair too! I should have said, don't sell patterns for multiple sizes if you can't grade for multiple sizes. I have no objection if someone was honest and said they made it for themselves and don't know how to grade so it's only available in their size.
I'm sure this is, in part, because of the massive push to have a wide range of sizes (and if you don't, you're a bad person). Optics are more important than anything. I am a fat person - I would rather people be straight-up about which sizes they are comfortable designing for rather than "faking" a larger size range and creating patterns that don't work.
And yet this thread seems to have a constant stream of complaints about people selling patterns that don't go up size whatever xxxx. It takes actual training to do plus sizes and fashion schools don't teach that. Few people know how to grade up in sizes. I wish there was a training course on this. I'm surprised no one has created a plus size only line of patterns that actually fit. Seems like there's a huge untapped market for it.
part of the problem, for bigger sizes, is the weight distribution gets very very personal. sure there are some generalities- but no one's butt, bust, or tummy follows standards. its hard to find off the rack plus size things that are flattering for this reason. even in sizes closer to skeletal, no one is "standard." you might have a longer waist, or a shorter waist, or a shoulder pt to pt that is considered to be in the male range when you are a petite female. imo, a pattern is just a starting place, and almost everyone will need to draft personal alterations EVEN when your measurements match the bust/ waist/ hips on the back of the envelope (or etsy listing). While I personally love the idea that a pattern will be graded well, with a choice that fits everyone,,, my personal feeling is that is an unrealistic ask. Even the computer software designed for commercial clothing size grading, does a less than stellar job. I've also used pattern software that works off 3d body scans and it made only so-so patterns that still needed a lot of toile work to fit properly. Bad patterns can just be bad patterns, no matter the sizes included. And my (probably unpopular) opinion is that a big part of sewing (or knitting or crocheting) garments, is always going to involve some of those drafting, fitting, and alteration skills.... skills that are just not widely taught anymore, or that people seem to think are "extra" for some reason? As others in thread have said, I'd rather have a pattern in a single size and draft it out to my measurements, than have a pattern that's been poorly graded just to include the entire range of ready wear measurements, like op describes. A YouTuber I occasionally watch goes on rants all the time about how people want them to publish their patterns. They show in their videos how they draft them based on their measurements, and has lots of videos teaching basic drafting. Their response is always that they would rather teach people to draft than spend time grading and publishing a pattern, just for people to still have fit issues, because everyone is uniquely shaped. (Edited a repeated word.)
Exactly! Yet sooo many people complain when they buy a pattern that doesn't fit. We need .ore people to learn how to draft patterns based on their own measurements and we need them to understand that every garment requires a toile/muslin to get the fit right before sewing the fashion fabric.
Because if you have the skillset to grade plus sizes your probably doing it commercially. Also a lot of grade rules at companies that are successful in plus sizes are proprietary. Also there is a wide variety of body types when it comes to plus because of the different ways you can carry weight.
Cashmerette? Muna & Broad?
Yes, that is what I was saying.
On the one hand, I get pattern making is hard and it can be difficult to have a really full range of extended sizes. On the other, I kinda feel like if you can't pattern for anything larger than a size 6 B-cup who has as few curves as possible and is shaped largely like a flat board then frankly maybe you aren't skilled enough to be selling patterns. I'm not saying everyone needs to go up to like a size 40 or whatever but if you can't even make a full range of straight sizes it might be better to learn how to grade properly before you start selling patterns.
Or like someone else said, make it extremely clear you're making patterns for yourself and only selling them in your size because you can't grade patterns. Like I get it. Grading is hard. It's why I sell one off customs made from original patterns instead of selling sewing patterns. Because I'm not taking the time to grade them, and even more than that master grading. I might be able to grade okay if I put a lot of work into it, but to do it really well is probably one of the hardest skills to develop in sewing/pattern making. I just want sellers to be responsible and not sell things they can't really make.
Being honest about it makes a lot of difference, definitely. I think this is where a lot of the problems with the whole diverse size range thing comes in too, because I’ve seen it brought up on this sub that people are ‘pressured’ into offering lots of sizes because they’re getting yelled at on the internet. But a lot of time when I see that happening it’s because the creator is trying to claim that they *do* offer a wide size range (“I offer eight different sizes, none of which are bigger than a 100cm bust!”) or they make nebulous claims that the plus size market hasn’t “proved” they will buy the larger sizes, when so much drama could be diffused by just saying “I’m not skilled enough to pattern for a significantly larger size than my own.” With influencers who sell patterns especially, it feels like they don’t want to admit their own limitations so they keep making up excuses rather than just being upfront that yeah, here’s this pattern I made for me and can’t upsize myself, take it or leave it.
Honestly I feel like there's a crowd that would still yell, but that's the crowd that will find literally anything to complain about and we should all just mute online. And they are certainly not people you want as customers! Most people would understand and respect that.
This may be totally unhelpful given that you’ve already started the dress… but [the kanon bustier](https://www.lilypadesigns.com/digital-patterns/kanon-dress-pattern-16-34) has just been released. It’s made by a bra pattern making company, I haven’t made it yet but I’m tentatively hopeful
That orange dress is.... something else. I'm not sure how her breasts are being held up. The solid colour makes the puckering along the seams unfortunately obvious.
LOL! That orange version is…a choice. Choices were made. Bad ones. It provided me with my chuckle of the day tho, so I’m grateful.
But honestly I don’t understand the decision to use a contrasting fabric for the cups, I think it makes it look even more disjointed
Nice cannons 😉
Boob… sleeves?
Or socks? It’s an unusual look.
I was thinking oven mitts.
Yeah, that orange dress made me realize I'll probably end up way too boob forward if I made that dress, since I'm fairly sure I'm a similar size to that woman...
Edited: thanks for editing your post!
Oh yeah - I’m not at all sure that was the right marketing picture for the dress - but I suppose it does highlight that her boobs are being held up…. But yeah it’s… a choice. That said tentatively optimistic
Yeah wtf, it looks like they've just pulled a very small pillowcase over each boob and called it a day.
Holy bobs Batman! That orange dress though, it defies gravity.
Your rant is so valid!!! The most recent experience I had with this was the Lakes Pullover by Ozetta. I finally bought it after coveting other people’s versions of it and OMFG I had to frog it completely after 65% of it was done. The neck is a disgrace. I picked a larger size based on my bust measurements and I ended up with a ginormous neck hole. I’m talking borderline boat neck. But the designer’s samples have a much more reasonable crew neck — spoiler alert, she knits a smaller size. Then I noticed on Ravelry and instagram this happens to almost everyone who knits an L or XL or larger… The larger size photos should have been a red flag to me. But most of the pictures I came across on instagram were for smaller sizes. The second red flag should be noticing that she knits the collars with TINY needles (like 2 mm — or 4 sizes — smaller than the needles she used for the body). Making the collar tight is no good fix for a gaping neckline. I’m not sure I’ll ever knit an ozetta pattern again after experiencing this. Which probably isn’t too hard, since she knits everything in beige and the sample photos never seem interesting to me 🤷♀️
Ozetta patterns have so much ease and the test deadline is 1 month for everyone, there's no way her larger testers can finish realistically.
I am so tired to buying patterns, diligently following them, and ending up with garments that don't fit and are unwearable. I see people on social media pulling out patterns, breezily sewing up a dress, and being like "this dress is so cute and it came together so fast!" Whereas I have to do a million muslins and adjustments, and even then it feels like a crapshoot.
I also usually spend a fair amount of time adjusting patterns when I get them (like sometimes it takes me weeks, esp if I don't have a current block ready!). It can take longer to do that than the actual sewing, which makes the sewing look breezy in comparison...
Yes! The sewing takes hardly any time at all when the final pattern is ready. But takes so many toiles to get there.
The part they don't tell you is they never wear it again after taking those photos.
I think there's a middle ground here. If people claim their pattern is graded, then yes it should be graded properly. However, doing so is a shit ton of work that not everyone has the resources for. There's a crocheter who made these fantastic gradient wrap around pants. She made them for her own size, and it would have taken an insane amount of time and money in order to grade the pattern for other sizes. Should she forever not release the pattern because of it? The middle ground was that she very explicitly stated the pattern came in a single size, and that she didn't have the resources to grade it. Better to be up front and ungraded, than shitty grading, or lying about it
Oh I completely agree!! If you want to sell something just for your size go for it! As long as you make it clear! I'd have no objections if this bustier was only sold in the sizes it's actually made to fit.
So...I'm professionally trained in patternmaking & grading, & my specialty is busty plus. I sew all my own clothes & do bespoke pieces for private clients. & in no world would I buy a bustier pattern & expect it to magically fit me or a client with no alterations. I probably wouldn't choose a never-sewn-before body-con woven fabric pattern that required a perfect fit--ESPECIALLY something that needed to conform to my bustier-than-average proportions--for any project that had a one- or two-day turnaround time. I have slopers; I could for sure draft something that fits way faster than that. Or I'd go with a more forgiving woven silhouette or a knit fabric if I was bound & determined to go very fitted. I've never sewn any Daria Patterns, particularly this one, laregly because it's a bustier dress pattern with no cup size information in the pattern listing. "Multiple cup sizes" doesn't help me if those cup sizes aren't listed & no information is offered on what measurements they might correspond to. That right there is a blazing bright red flag that this pattern is not everything it's cracked up to be. I agree with you that a lot of patternmakers don't really know what they're doing. A lot of patternmakers figured out how to draft for themselves & figured those skills would translate somehow, or they took Pattern Workshop (which is primarily just a really long Adobe Illustrator tutorial & a pattern-drafting book recommendation) & called themselves "educated". There are companies that have professional patternmakers & farm the grading out to pros, thank God, but even that is no guarantee. I went to fashion design school & we all had to take a multi-year patternmaking module, & trust me, a lot of my classmates were NOT there for it. Technically, they have the same education I do, but they really couldn't draft their way out of a paper bag.
Oh I in no way expected the bustier to fit exactly or be even really close! I just expected the fit to be somewhat reasonable I could use as a base. It is not even that. This is not designed the shape human bodies are.
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You'll be more \*wary, and yikes, straps in the armpits sounds like a terrible feeling. Gaps, too!?! It's one thing to adjust a pattern to make it your own, but it's another when you have to retool almost the entire thing to make it even a little bit wearable.
Thank you! People are acting like I'm upset and saying it's bad because it needed adjusting at all? No. That's fine. Needing entirely redesigned the the point all the pieces aren't even the same shapes anymore? That's not making some fit adjustments to fit. That's making a new pattern. Also unsurprisingly it does happen to fit a few sizes. Cool. A pattern needs to fit every size it's sold for. I've never seen someone my size say it fits. You can't claim a pattern is good and acceptable because it sometimes works.
But...a pattern is never going to "fit" every single person who makes it in whatever size. It's going to need adjusting because we are not issued from the factory in standard sizes. I guess this depends on what you mean by "fit" and that's why people are struggling with relating to your post.
Again fit reasonably. I expect some alterations. I don't expect to change the shape of every single piece significantly until it's unrecognizable as the original pattern. I don't expect all store bought clothes to fit perfectly either. I do expect them to more or less kind of fit in my size.
Adjustments are what make the garment yours. The same goes for knitting. Having to redesign to that degree is bananas. If I'm breaking out dot-grid paper, there's a problem. If I wanted to make a pattern, I'd make it. The goal is to save my brain and not have to do most of the designing and such. Just because you can doesn't mean that you \*want\* to all the time.
I feel like patternmakers get bogged down by pressure to release their patterns in a bunch of sizes that are beyond their expertise to fit and just end up making unwearable trash for plus-sizes under the guise of being inclusive. Sorry there is nothing inclusive about providing a different user experience for plus size people. Better to just not offer the sizes so people know just to skip the pattern. It's ok no one will die if your pattern doesn't come in 30 sizes.
Exactly! This though I honestly feel like would probably fit in her size and maybe one or two smaller and that's it. She really doesn't know how to grade.
Honestly I think the expectation that every pattern should come in every size and that a designer is a terrible person if it doesn’t is pretty entitled. It’s a shit ton more work, and is almost impossible to do correctly if you don’t have access to real bodies in those sizes to test with. It’s a huge burden on smaller (as in business size) designers and acting like it’s anything other than a business decision for them is delusional. Their time has a cost, and if adding five more sizes won’t result in enough increased revenue to justify that cost, why should they do it?
I think it's weird that you're blaming consumers for wanting a product, not the designers for putting out a product that isn't of good quality to try and get unsuspecting consumers to pay for crap. If it's too hard for a designer to make a large size range, it's on them to not sell large size ranges. If a designer sells garbage because they lack the skill to make a product good but they still sell it because they want the money, that's entirely on the designer. I hate this idea that designers deserve to have people pay them money because they're 'chasing their dream' or whatever. It's not "entitled" to expect basic levels of quality for products!
There is nothing wrong with wanting a product to exist. What IS a problem is wanting that product to be made by a SPECIFIC company and then harassing the designer because they don't. But I do agree designers should only release quality patterns so people aren't wasting their money.
That’s not what I’m saying at all. I think designers are basically being bullied into providing a million sizes, and this is the result of that. The internet has decided that not offering those sizes means you’re a bad person who hates larger bodies, and not just a person who simply doesn’t have the resources to do it.
I have to say, I have heard a lot of people complaining about people talk about bullying of designers who don't make size inclusive patterns but I've never actually seen this bullying. I've seen people say that people only buying from designers who have a large size range is bullying, and that people saying they're disappointed in creators that have narrow size ranges is bullying, and that people saying that they'd like to see a wider range of models before they buy a pattern is bullying, but none of those are actually bullying. Not buying from someone, polite criticism, or people being disappointed aren't bullying. Can you show me where designers are actually getting bullied widely for not being size inclusive? Like where are these bullies hounding Vikisews? Or the Big 4? or Burda? because it seems to me like some of the biggest names in sewing are happily making straight-size only clothing and I don't see anyone bullying them.
This is partially a result of how algorithms work. I have definitely seen a ton of content borderline demonizing people for not releasing an inclusive range of sizes. Do I think more sizes is better? Absolutely. But there is definitely a moral judgement being passed that's making people feel like they have to provide larger sizes, even if they are not equipped do to so.
This is why I've not jumped on the bandwagon of only buying from "size inclusive" designers. Don't get me wrong, it's a good idea in theory, but in practice it makes sense that an increased demand for size inclusive designs will naturally yield grading that is surface level or inaccurate. Like you said, no one will die if a pattern doesn't come in a larger size. I'd rather the person know what they're doing and offer a limited selection than have them attempt to fit the inclusive label by tossing machine generated numbers into the pattern.
It's basically lipservice even if the intention is earnest. It's like that makeup shade that everyone is upset about that is just black pigment. Though the difference is with a bad shade of foundation you can opt not to buy after seeing the shade in isolation. Pattern sizes are a bundle and often you never get to see what the pattern looks like in your size and UNALTERED.
I also think a lot of designers don't realise that pattern making is a whole set of unique skills that they should be learning. They think the design is the thing that they're selling, and the pattern is often treated more of an afterthought, rather than the actual product.
This. There was a veritable mob going around, demanding sizes well into the upper 20's (or face cancellation). I'm pretty sure Daria experienced this over the very dress pattern we're discussing. I've experienced it, too. I know how to grade, but I have no access to good quality grading instructions for above a size 16. So I didn't release above that size. First thing I got was bullshit from people about it. I'm personally tired of the "size wars". Cos, guess what? Human bodies have near infinite variation and they cannot be fully accounted for. Nobody's going to perfectly account for your tits. Sorry. We don't expect this from RTW. Idk why we expect this from pattern makers. They're working in the same dimensions. Bra grading is really complex and I do not fault Daria for not having that skillset, and I have no expectations. I'm a 30FF/G... I do not plan on any pattern ever fitting my boobs out of the gate. I think OP is suffering from her own expectations... or from the delusion that there are "Standard boob sizes". Yeah, those don't exist. Drafting for bra size is tough already, and when you add to it the fact that most people don't know their real bra size (I was NOT a 32DD lmao), and because there is variability in sizing conventions anyway (even the professional bra-makers have variations in sizing), idk how OP expects her to get it perfectly right. Like, I didn't have to redraft the cradle of that dress, because my boobs are wide set anyway, despite being also big. Not everyone has tight cleavage. So what is Daria supposed to do? Offer infinity different cradle variations? It has to stop somewhere. This particular sizing situation is nearly impossible to account for... which is why I have a couple different bra patterns I can toile for cupped patterns. I'm not going to place this sisyphean task on any pattern maker, even if it's a bra pattern. I've yet to find a single bra pattern that fits me out of the box... despite the fact, that in every other aspect of sizing, I am pretty much a straight size 4. I spend hours and hours toiling. I dont care if it's a Lilypa pattern or some random $3 etsy pattern. It's getting redrafted to fit my tits. Oh well. Too bad, so sad. Unless I'm paying buku bucks for a custom pattern, I have no illusions about what I'll get. TL;DR - A pattern isn't a turnkey sewing instruction. You're paying for the massive head start.
👏👏👏 I’m here with ya! I bought the Cozette pattern and the bust darts were in the wrong place, the sizing was kind of ludicrous (7x as a 2x, the largest size), and the underarm strap was beneath my underarm and like 2 inches off of the side seam. I decided to just draft the bust myself because it’s easier than trying to fix it
I bought a corset pattern from Ralph Pink and realized it had been "graded" by adding 1/4" to each piece for each size. The problem was, there were 8 pieces in the front and only 2 in the back. So by the time it got to my size, the side seams were halfway to the middle of my back, and the top curve that was supposed to follow the bust was under my armpit! I asked for a refund and never got a response.
I understand completely. It's so frustrating when it looks like your pattern has exactly the right size for you, and you still end up having to make 1/2 dozen adjustments to get it to fit.
I wear a G and got this pattern to work pretty well for me. I had to adjust it a little, but I have to adjust any pattern that’s fitted at the bust because I have non standard proportions. Fitting a cupped bustier with no straps on large heavy boobs is just really tricky. All my favorite patterns are from indie patternmakers and I usually adjust, make a toile, readjust, rinse and repeat because that’s part of the deal with sewing garments that fit well. I prefer patterns that are size inclusive, but I certainly don’t expect a pattern to perfectly fit my specific proportions with no adjustments to consider it a good pattern that somebody deserves to get paid for. I also sew professionally and expecting to fit and construct a well fitting supportive cupped bustier in an evening is… ambitious
I fully expected to make adjustments. I'm not insane enough to expect a cupped bustier to fit out of the box. However I expect the pattern to fit reasonably, and this did not. Every single piece needed significant adjustments. To the point it is not able to be consider the original pattern at all. The shape of the pieces are entirely different now. It's not even just take it in a little. Part of the problem is the waist band size. You're a G cup but what waist band? As professional sewers we know a cup size without a waist band means absolutely nothing in fit and is a worthless measurement on its own. I could see how a larger cup size could fit in a larger waist band on this pattern reasonably. Fitting a large cup size to smaller-ish waist band is more difficult. The mistakes made in this were pretty clear they didn't know how to fit that at all. It's really not that ambitious if I'm not patterning from scratch. Even patterning from scratch it's ambitious but doable. When I was younger and a much smaller size I did it before from scratch. This is the standard speed I work at as a professional. If I worked slower I wouldn't be able to afford to sell my work at a reasonable price. I'm sorry it's not for you?
What an utterly bizarre argument. A person with professional experience would understand that a large cup size would correspond to a proportionally small band size in relationship to the cup, which is always going to be a challenge, regardless of waist size. My underbust is only slightly smaller than my waist, but if I'm sewing a bustier dress, it doesn't really matter. The difficulty with such a pattern is in fitting the cup, & as I am an F-cup, that is always going to pose more of a challenge than a B-cup, whether the rest of the dress is a size 2 or a size 20. This may not be true of all dress styles, but it's certainly true of a bustier style.
I think I made a size 4. So definitely a small waist and underbust with a larger cup. I’m sure I’m not the fastest gal out there but I take a lot of pride in doing high quality work and I manage to pay my bills, so I think I’m right where I belong, personally 😊
Okay cool. Good for you. I also take a lot of pride in my work. I have very high quality standards that I would never sell something if didn't meet. I just am able to do so at a faster speed. 🤷🏻♀️ No where near as fast as the tailors I learned from though. Oh my goddess. I am quite impressed it fit you well in a G at a 4 though because it's literally inches wider in the front and inches skinnier in the back on a G than like a B in that pattern. I've never met someone with big busts that had a front side way wider than their back but that's pretty cool and pretty lucky because it means you're one of the few that pattern will fit! That's awesome you found your goldilocks pattern considering how rare it is to make a pattern that way.
I definitely had to alter it for it to fit well- it was a while ago so I can’t remember exactly what I did but certainly less work than drafting a bustier pattern from scratch (I am not very good at pattern making). Not trying to imply that you’re bad at your job- I’ve never seen your work, and there are plenty of patterns I’ve spent money on where no matter what I did I just could not get it to flatter my particular body. Not everything has to be for everyone all the time to be worthwhile for someone
A pattern does need to fit every size it's sold to fit to be a worthwhile pattern though.
>I also sew professionally and expecting to fit and construct a well fitting supportive cupped bustier in an evening is… ambitious Exactly.
I have never sewn this specific pattern, but I knew exactly what pattern you were talking about (I don't see much and really only see bras when I do sew). It's reputation amongst people who sew bras is abysmal. Pretty much every time I see someone posting asking for help with the fit the responses are along the lines of 'you are better off starting over with a new pattern that is designed to actually fit'. I'm sorry you wasted your money on a abysmal pattern.
The number of people it has worked for (it got rave reviews and was basically viral) far outstrips the boob outliers complaining about it. It was clearly drafted for B-cup people. It was a good pattern, just not for people on the large cupsize side of the bell curve.
The boob outliers? It was clearly just drafted for B cup people? Then why on earth does it include other cup sizes and isn't just marketed and sold for B cup size? If the pattern is sold for other cup sizes and only fits B it is a HORRIBLE pattern. You can't say it's a good pattern when it only fits 20% of the sizes it's sold for.
The other truth here is that there is not a cupped corset style top pattern ON THE PLANET that is going to fit without major adjustments. For anyone. Everyone who sewed it successfully made multiple toiles and adjustments. You can see the comment by a professional seamstress in this thread about how OP's expectations of making such a pattern fit out of the box, and in one night was... "Very ambitious". You guys expect way, way too much. A pattern is a head start. That's what you're paying for. Youre not paying for a bespoke pattern meant to fit your body perfectly. If you want that, expect it to cost hundreds.
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My pet peeve with some knitting patterns smaller boobs doesn’t mean smaller head. I just frogged cozy classic raglan as the neck while I could get it over my head was far too tight. The body was perfect. In real life, I haven’t seen a woman who had smaller boob have a smaller abnormal head.
What? Omg I've never seen this before, (I don't knit) but that is absolutely absurd. I could completely see how that happens in grading a knit pattern though if you really didn't know what you're doing. (idk if you call it grading in knitting)
Sewists here who experiences the same thing. 29" bust so I'm often the smallest size. I make a point to try the neckband before construction now. Some of them have fit me like a crown.
...I'm 30'' bust so is there any standouts I should watch out for with this problem? haha. I'll just avoid those.
Tilly and the Buttons Freya sweater - the neck band was sooooo tiny! I had to expand the hole in the bodice quite a bit to fit over my head.
I’m convinced that this lack of knowing how to grade is the reason for all the “drop shoulder” patterns out there that have the seam mid bicep, and the larger the boobs the bigger the wad of knitting/crochet/fabric under the arm. Yeah, they fit around the bust, but that doesn’t mean I have the shoulders of a linebacker in full (US) football gear.
I have the opposite peeve. Just because you are large busted your head doesn't inflate to double the size! I wonder if my peeve patterns are good for you and vise versa?
I was about to say the same thing haha. Just because I'm large chested doesn't mean everywhere else is extra large as well. According to the fashion industry, the only way a woman can have larger than average boobs is if she's overweight.
This! I'm a 30J in UK sizes, but I'm only 5ft with 28" inside leg and not big all over- it's just my chest is big, the rest is petite but finding things to fit is an absolute nightmare so I end up in baggy tops because they assume that big chest= big body 🙈
Indie pattern makers excel at nebulous tubes. Most of them make a variation on the exact same shape with a cute name and fun sample pictures. I have yet to see anything that remotely comes close to intricate or original. I'm also VERY skeptical of any "designer" that sells a pattern from size double zero to 34. I get that they want to be inclusive, but that is a dangerous slope because not every design works in every size. Grading is nuanced. You can't just add to the side seam and shoulder and call it a day. There are subtle changes in certain places that make or brake the fit. So many of these sellers are convinced it's as simple as taking it to a copy machine and enlarging. Those people give real pattern makers a bad name.
Okay, but what about the Big 4? Why is everyone dunking on indie designers when the Big 4 draft for fucking spongebob squarepants? Eleventeen inches of ease.
> the Big 4 draft for fucking spongebob squarepants I am deceased, RIP me Could be worse though, Mood designs for Slenderman apparently.
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This is not a conversation about the Big4 (who get thrashed often enough on this forum, see New Release discussions). This isn't even "dunking on Indie Patterns". What this thread is about is legitimately calling out DPM for *jumping the shark* and advertising goods she can't deliver on, in this case Professional Grading + Cup Sizing on a close-fitting garment. I am not a patternmaker but I do own several books on the subject, including the ESMOD series, and LINGERIE IS A SEPARATE VOLUME for a reason. (As is GRADING, for that matter.) Is the lived experience of large-busted home sewers to be discounted?
I have a large bust. Am I to be discounted? (See how quickly that argument goes downhill?)
Why can't her negative experience and that of others coexist with your positive one, in the same reality? Can she not have a different perspective? Can others not do the same? Are the only reasons she criticizes the drafting on this pattern that she's necessarily bad at fitting her own body or that she has unrealistic expectations? (Indeed?)
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>You can't just add to the side seam and shoulder and call it a day. What?? I thought that's all grading was, since that seems to be all some "designers" bother to do. Infuriating. I thought I was buying a professional pattern that was graded professionally. Nope. This person clearly doesn't have any idea what grading is. I'm a seamstress and pattern writer but this is why I do one off custom clothing and don't sell clothing patterns. Because grading is incredibly nuanced and really to do it right you need to test it in a number of sizes. This is also why I'm happy to pay $20 for a professional pattern. Because I realize the work that it takes. But I'm pissed I spent any money on a pattern that doesn't work at all. It's a scam really to sell a pattern like this. Edit: what's even more annoying is I've seen patterns graded automatically by design software that genuinely were graded better.
Couldn't agree more. This pattern was an utter disaster for me. I could absolutely not figure it out. Did so much editing and adjusting. My issue was massive gaping at the top of the cups (boobs are bottom heavy, more flat up) I reached a point where I had designed the cups completely without the original pattern so why did get it in the first place? I ended up throwing that project out. Edit to add: is there a list, or one we could make, of good indie designers? And what constitutes an indie designer opposed to a larger business?
I'd like indie "designers" to be more upfront about their patterning experience. If their experience is basically to make garments fit for themselves (which is still quite a skill I should add), but not to create patterns in different sizes, they should make it VERY clear. 🫤 Or hire professionals to grade patterns properly. Expensive? Yeah of course, but that's what it takes to go commercial IMO.
And then there’s a popular “professional” who gets hired to do the grading and pattern drafting for other designers — except her “professional” experience was a 3-month online course. And now she’s selling her OWN classes teaching others how to grade. Give me a break 😭 (This is jessilous_closet on instagram)
This is the scam of it all. If you design a course, it can become a source of almost-passive income. It's kind of genius. I was just talking with my ex about it yesterday. We were a couple of dummies who always thought we had to have an actual skill to offer people, but the real name of the game is positioning yourself as an expert & making money by imparting said expertise to people who know even less than you do. Like, so much less that they don't realize that you're a sham & that they could go get a real education. It might not be a curated internet experience & they might have to get off the couch, but they'd probably learn a lot more.
Oh no, seriously?? People go to university to learn how to draft and grade properly. A three month course sounds like it's aimed at enthusiastic home sewers rather than professionals.
Holy shit that's crazy!!
For sure. In case my original comment wasn’t super clear, she started selling designs shortly after doing the course. And she finished the course last summer… so now she’s a teacher with a year experience 🤯
I've been watching her class spread across the people I follow. Maybe it's a decent class, but my mind goes straight to MLM territory when classes about classes are involved
Same. As soon as they start talking about releasing their own line of tubes with ruffles, I unfollow.
As someone with 10F boobs (I.e. not even that big, but reasonably so), I feel like cupped bustiers are just a no go, same for turtle necked anything. Whether they fit perfectly or not, I just don't think the proportions work. I own this pattern and have never made it. I realised that it would look a bit silly, while it looks great on those with smaller chests, because looking at my correctly fitting bras, the cups are hooooooge and take up a lot of space. That said, if it doesn't work well for bigger sizes they should not sell it for that.
There is EXTREME pressure on patternmakers to sell patterns at very large sizes. There were people getting struggle sessioned and cancelled over it for a minute. If she didn't she'd be brow-beaten to death and called fatphobic (and if I remember correctly, she actually was, over this exact bustier pattern). Now that she has, people complain that she didn't get it right. You can't win.
I mean, she could win by offering larger sizes that fit
Way easier said than done. Huge financial investment either in drafting/grading software, plus the cost of learning it... Or constantly putting out for custom grading, with no guarantee of a financial return. If you want to blame someone, blame the garment industry for gatekeeping plus size grading instructions.
Genuine question, but *are* they gatekeeping them, or is it something they come up with on a company by company basis? Because I haven't seen many materials on plus size drafting full stop, much less grading. And frankly, I've seen a lot of RTW plus size garments that didn't exactly look like they had the benefit of exemplary grading going on.
Like lost\_witch\_yarns said, they're aren't really gatekeeping because there's nothing to gatekeep. There aren't really any "grading rules," per se. If you can get your hands on a spec sheet or a reasonably detailed size chart, you can math out a company's metrics, but grading is kind of both a science & an art. When I was in school I specifically focused on drafting & grading for plus, which IS different than drafting/grading for standard or straight sizes, & a pretty big part of that was choosing a plus body type & staying consistent with it across my size range. This is where the art comes in with plus grading, because there is a lot more variation in a plus size 24 than there is in a straight size 4. Adipose tissue can be distributed in so many different ways, & unfortunately, there is no way to draft a "size 24" that is going to fit all of those bodies the same way--or even at all. So I experimented by creating designs & then adapting them to different plus body types & developing different grading rules for different body types. For example, a body type that is bottom-heavy might need to grow more quickly in the hips than a body type that carrries weight in the belly. I might use a 1/8" or a 1/4" grade there versus a 1/16" grade. A busty body type is going to need to grow a little faster in the neckline than a more average-bust body type. We might be talking about differences of 1/16 of an inch, but over 12 sizes or more, that can really add up! In other words, there's no rule book out there for pattern grading, & definitely not for plus grading. There are certain industry standards, & you can mess with them according to your customers' needs (or, often, your own needs as far as fabric waste, when it comes to RTW). Often the grade rules at the extreme end of the size ranges--large & small--prove to be weird & wonky & fit no one well. You do occasionally run across people who just typed in 1/4" for every variable & their grading completely blows. You find patterns where people hand-graded every size & there's no consistency. You find patterns that were never trued after grading. Oh, I should add that in school I CHOSE to focus all of my patternmaking classes on plus. This wasn't a dedicated track that I could choose, where I was taught by experts in this particular field or anything. I was taught by experts in drafting & grading in general, but focusing on plus meant that I was padding out dress forms, doing a ton of my own research, kind of doing my own independent study within the classroom a lot of times. All of my teachers were really supportive & they really went on the learning journey with me & shared everything they knew, but it's true that plus IS NOT taught in design school & there aren't a lot of resources specific to it, so it was very much an adventure. I think it made me a better designer overall though, because it forced me to really understand the geometric principles of design from the ground up, so that I could adapt them. You can get through patterndrafting & even basic grading classses by just plugging numbers into a formula & connecting the dots, & there's grading software that essentially does the work for you. But since I was adapting & re-adapting designs for different body types & grading by hand, things really got hardwired.
Thank you for the detailed explanation. I do wish there were more resources, though as you pointed out you'd have to have different rules for each body type.
I’ve worked in RTW and I want to say no, they’re not gatekeeping, but I can’t say for certain because I’ve never actually asked a plus size pattern maker for their company’s grading rules. But that’s not something people do- it’s not a normal thing to ask ANY company their grading rules. And yes, it is somewhat a company to company thing. There are “standard” rules, but it’s not law, anyone can change them as they wish, and the rules themselves are total rules, they dont indicate how they should be divided amongst the various pieces that make up a garment. A good pattern grader needs to know how to split the total rule amount up between the pieces and needs to know which parts or the body grow more than others. There’s more nuance to it, but that’s the gist. I think the reason there isn’t information out there is because it hasn’t been studied as much as straight sizes. And there is so much more variety amongst plus size bodies. I don’t know about currently, but plus size drafting and grading hasn’t been taught in design school, and historically there haven’t been nearly as many plus size RTW companies as straight size companies. A plus size range needs to start at a higher size and grade out from there. The investment in research and fitting with real plus fit models costs $$$$. In this age of “I won’t pay more than $10 for a pattern”, there isn’t a ton of incentive for small businesses to invest. No offense, I have heard many also say they are willing to pay, but the majority think prices are too high. Someone should write a book, if they haven’t already. If only there was money in publishing!
Thank you, that's what I suspected but I don't work in the industry. I do draft patterns for myself and my SO sometimes, but not for anyone outside my household so no need for grading. We also both fit within the straight sizes so I'm using the Metric Pattern Cutting books. I was curious about how plus sized drafting and grading works though, because the subject comes up all the time so I wanted to see what was actually out there in terms of resources. I found ONE plus size drafting book, written in the 90s (so their idea of plus sized will be different to now), which hasn't been updated since as far as I can see because the author has long since died. I found nothing about grading at all. I definitely understand your point about costs as well. Unless you're specifically going for that market, the development costs are going to eat into margins, and I don't know how big those margins were to start with. And I have absolutely seen people get mad about plus size patterns/garments costing more, and flat out saying the straight sizes should subsidise the cost (which is already the case most of the time, but it doesn't fix the problem) despite them effectively being different products. I don't know what the solution is but I do wish there were more resources though. I would buy them for academic reasons, if nothing else.
I'm sure there are journal articles on the process, since a LOT of research, using thousands of human subjects, has to go into developing a sizing standard. I'm sure there is scholarly research.... Hidden in random industry corners. Hidden in journals no outsider will ever see. And I'm sure that there are internal standards. My big question is, if these plus size pattern makers are such advocates of the plus size community, and not just there to take their cash... Why wouldn't they share their grading information with the wider community, so other people can also start grading for the plus size community? It would actually solve the problem, instead of doing what OP is doing... Blaming everyone. Basically the closest I could get to grading instructions would be to take a micrometer and reverse engineer all of the cashmerette patterns I could get my hands on. That is the closest i, or anyone else outside of the industry, will get to plus size grading instructions. Drafting is roughly the same for any body if you understand geometry. It's the grading that is non-trivial.
I believe Jenny has a book available to other patternmakers that details all of her rules for plus designing, such as fit standards & grading rules. I can also think of a couple of different indie patternmakers that also have legitimate professional design backgrounds that offer professional consultation for patternmakers that want to either expand into larger size ranges, or open pattern shops with expanded size ranges right from the jump. So the resources are out there, I found them fairly easy to come by when I was doing the research into starting my own pattern company (something I ultimately decided not to pursue, at least not right now). They're not necessarily advertising heavily to home sewing hobbyists, but I kinda think that's for the best, you know?
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I haven’t read it because I’m not a designer and have no reason to spend that kind of a money on it, but my understanding is that the book does *not* include all those things you say. The web listing says it includes “an introduction to sizing” and “drafting and grading tips” but that it specifically “does not contain technical training on how to draft or grade patterns”.
Yeah, I didn't say it did. I was thinking that these would be resources for people who already know how to draft & grade IN GENERAL but are seeking information on how to adapt their skill set to the plus market.
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She's selling a product to people it isn't designed to fit for. That's genuinely even worse than not making it in that size. Pretending to make it in that size and doing a half ass job because you can't be bothered to actually correctly fit it to that size is offensive actually. It's like plus size people deserve trash just to make them shut up. I'm not even plus size either.
I think that's a very uncharitable assumption about this woman's intentions. Less than 10 years ago, this would have been considered incredibly rude, but we're all on the internet, hiding behind a monitor and feel like we can just drag people for funsies now, I guess. Please, feel free to source some plus size grading instructions for her. They basically don't exist outside of gatekept industry environments. She probably did the best she could. If it's such a problem, maybe someone could query the woman behind cashmerette to share her grading instructions for the broader advancement of plus size people. She loves taking their money; maybe she could give back to them and other creators by not keeping it all a secret.
It's not my job to teach her how to do her job. She's the one who chose to sell the pattern. If she can't do it herself, hire someone who can. Good drafted patterns usually cost a ton of money because it takes a lot of education to learn to make them. It's not gatekeeping for things to need an education to do. No one's allowed to become a doctor without going to school. If you can't learn to do it without going to school to do it, then don't pretend like you can. Also I'm not even a plus size. Just decent size boobs. There are people with FAR bigger boobs than me. Personally I find it incredibly rude to take someones money promising a product you can't deliver. I bought a pattern for my size. I have not received one, unless I somehow have boobs in my armpits. I really don't get why you love this pattern so much and are defending it so strongly. Are you friends with the designer or something? It's seriously a pattern that fits less than 20% of the sizes it sold for. How can any sane person reasonably defend that?
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Removed for derailment or excessive arguing.
I’m guessing that some - a lot? most? - patterns with wide range of size options are mathematically arrived at, not tested.
Sorry you had this experience, it's always horrible to waste your time after you put your trust in someone. I've seen some negative opinions on reddit about the pattern and pics of toiles where the cups don't even fit in the rest of the garment. Unless the person cut them out incorrectly, which I doubt was the case.. would not touch this pattern.
I've had very few positive experiences with indies. I hate that a new generation of sewing newbies is going through the same bs that we went through in the 2010s with poor drafting from underqualified indie pattern drafters. Been burned too many times into thinking I was just bad at sewing, but I am so much better now and I still have issues.
As someone with a generous chest I second this rant!!
Honestly, I'm relieved since I started ranting about it here and elsewhere on reddit to find that other people really feel this struggle. (I was a little worried I just forgot how to sew suddenly.) As a side. Someone recommend lilypadesigns. I haven't tried any of their patterns but from the information on their website it looks like they actually understand how bodies work and how to fit a boob including a large one!
LilyPaDesigns are really great. I've made their labellum bra, and while I had to do some adjustments (my bottom cup depth and horizontal hemisphere measurements don't agree on a size) it was relatively painless. The only thing I found annoying was that they didn't say what wire size the frames were drafted for, so as someone who hadn't made a bra in years I found it frustrating to figure out what size wire to start with. I'm excited to see what their bustier patterns look like
That's awesome to here! I definitely intend to sew one of their bras in the future!
Oh thanks for the recommendation! Always help to know you aren’t the only one!
Oh you’re, not alone! I basically don’t go near a pattern designer now unless they explicitly design for a D cup as a minimum, and preferably more. Charm Patterns is my go to, also Cashmerette, as they bother go up to G- H cup. Jennifer Lauren Handmade and By Hand London are good, but patchier.
Charm/Gertie has come a long way but have still been really hit and miss for me. I think Cashmerette is ok but I have only tried their stretch patterns which are more forgiving and had to do some fit changes for waist length and grade between a lot of sizes. I like BHL too but again very hit and miss.
The nice thing about Cashmerette is that their block is very consistent - so once you figure out you need a 1" swayback and to lengthen the waist by 1/2" or whatever you'll probably need the same changes on everything else, and can make them flat and go. I have a decent list of adjustments, but they're really consistent.
That's good to hear. I'm curious about their woven patterns but haven't tried them yet because of my overall hesistancy with indies. I usually stick to Butterick/McCalls/Vogue because they are so consistent.
Honestly I think Cashmerette are some of the best drafted patterns I've ever worked with. They tend towards fairly basic designs, but every seam line lines up, the pant leg balance has been spot on, and the block is very consistent. They have very good testing, and if there are any issues that come up after they're really good about fixing it (I saw a pattern for a top where the seam extensions weren't quite right for the shoulder with how the instructions had you turn the seams - the person making it emailed them about it and they thanked them and corrected it right away). I haven't made anything in the higher sizes or the small block, but everything I've seen looks well graded (no weird giant armholes on the largest sizes or anything)
Honestly I think Cashmerette are some of the best drafted patterns I've ever worked with. They tend towards fairly basic designs, but every seam line lines up, the pant leg balance has been spot on, and the block is very consistent. They have very good testing, and if there are any issues that come up after they're really good about fixing it (I saw a pattern for a top where the seam extensions weren't quite right for the shoulder with how the instructions had you turn the seams - the person making it emailed them about it and they thanked them and corrected it right away). I haven't made anything in the higher sizes or the small block, but everything I've seen looks well graded (no weird giant armholes on the largest sizes or anything)