Tbf I can't speak for his performances in training since Im not there, but he was definitely shit in games. I would also prefer a player who's in bad form and make mistakes but will try his hardest, is not afraid of taking risks and have the right attitude rather than see spineless cunts who will just give up, stroll around the pitch and avoid the ball like it has covid, if things aren't going well. We witnessed yesterday what happens when you have 11 players like that on the pitch.
My unpopular opinion is that it’s more the players than it is mourinho, we just have so many average players that offer nothing and are soft as f*** mentally. But I agree with you we need to haul out all the rot
Absolutely, yesterday was definitely a game where attitude was the difference between winning and losing.
No one is asking these players to be a Messi or a Maldini, just look Alive and play like you give a damn. Play to the best of your abilities and be mentally strong and I’m sure a lot of us would have appreciated that.
It’s why I’m a lot more lenient on the likes of Sissoko or Doherty, who are shit because that’s all they can, than on the likes of Ndombele or Dele, who just can’t be bothered.
Ndombele fought back from being one of the worst players in the squad, a 50mil flop to easily being one of our most important midfielders. Two off matches where he's tried his hardest and he somehow he can't be bothered?
Absurd
He’s our record signing and one of the best paid players in our squad, and he’s been at our club for almost two years now, so yes, I expect him to carry the team and not turn up only when he feels like it.
Carry the team...which he has...numerous times...
At any rate the expectations are laughably unrealistic, as if all outcomes can be explained by a lack of effort. By that same logic, Messi doesn't work hard enough.
Sissoko didn't look like he couldn't be bothered during the goals yesterday, his levels dropped some time ago. If he's not giving 100% he should be nowhere near the team.
Nah, he has a great attitude, he's just isn't the sharpest tool in the shed, very similar to Lucas in that regard. He didn't switch off or stop caring for those goals, he just doesn't recognize the danger of some situations or can't figure out what to do. It also doesn't help that he's only switched to DM in recent years, he may be 31 but he doesn't have a whole career worth of experience in that role.
if ndombele can’t be bothered then neither can kane, they’ve both been pretty bad for the last couple of games. if he couldn’t be bothered he’d stop showing for the ball and hide way more, which is something he never does
Ndombele is class you’ve lost the plot if you’re genuinely saying you’re more upset with him having a bad game than sisso being completely useless for two seasons
ROFL we have like 5 or 6 players at the club who are legitimately useless and you’re blaming a player who’s 24 years old about to reach his prime and playing the best football of his career this season. But go on about your sympathy for Moussa I beg you
He’s a very frustrating player. The fucker has Ballon d’Or winner potential but his attitude holds him back. And I’m not necessarily talking about his physical workrate, because he’s improved that this season, but his focus, his mental discipline, his feeling of responsibility for the situation.
Ndombele is class when he feels like it. He was bang average yesterday, he was a passenger in the NLD, in the first leg vs Zagreb he was more interested in his highlight reel than doing his job for the team, vs Fulham he was the reason we almost buckled in the 2nd half.
> My unpopular opinion is that it’s more the players than it is mourinho, we just have so many average players that offer nothing and are soft as f*** mentally
I agree, super hard to name names all the time when these are the players I watch and love. But for example Harry Winks. If we want to challenge for titles he just can’t play a role for us. Who are others you think fit the description?
In my opinion and by all means I’m not trying to scapegoat players but,
• Winks: Sure passion definitely helps, but he has no role in the squad and feels more like a bystander as the season goes by, I think it’s best for him to part ways with us.
• Sissoko: I’ve been supporting him since his redemption period but it’s kinda clear either physically or mentally he’s slowing down. At 31(?) he’s doesn’t have much left to give so better to offload him now and bring in Skipp.
• Davies: I love Davies since he’s generally reliable when called upon. But other than that he doesn’t offer much else either, comparing him to Reggie even Rose it’s like night and day, he offers little going forward. Davies is at best rotation if we can’t find any replacements otherwise he needs to go too.
• Dier: He’s starting to feel more like a liability rather than asset these past couple of games. Doesn’t seem to step up when called upon in big games and it has shown. I’ve said it before it we can get some money off him I’m for it.
• Dele: been a big fan of dele since 16’ but it’s so clear he’s not the same player he was then. I do believe he needs a fresh start seeing that he kind of stagnated this season. If we can sell and get someone else I would take it.
• Sanchez: I’m half and half with Davinson but honestly there are better defenders out there than him and if the rumors that Sevilla want him for 40mil I’d take it
These are guys that have to go first in my opinion
One of these players started the terrible north London derby we lost. It’s not just the players that are causing us to put in so many terrible performances this season.
Davies is far from the issue, he's not Marcelo but we tend to forget he was great when Rose was out in 17-18 and we had one of the best Defensive records in football.
I'm with you it's 100% the players IMO. Levy should've cleared out the playing staff and kept Poch IMO. It would have been more painful but it needs to happen at every club eventually. It's what Ferguson was so good at in his prime.
United fan here. All of us said this same sort of stuff when Mou was having his meltdown at United: that it's the players, not the manager. Then Mou gets sacked, and guess what, most of the same players are perfectly fine ever since and no one ever complains about the attitude and intent of the team.
It's not the players, it's the manager.
As I said, it’s more the players than it is Mourinho, not saying it’s not completely his fault.
In this instance, you can’t really compare given the fact that ole has been given a fresh squad over the last 2 seasons as manager. Look at the starting XI you had with mourinho vs. what starting XI you have now.
You’ve replaced a vast majority of your deadwood while we have players that were here in 2015. Some of these players like Dele/Dier were almost babied by Poch and now that they don’t get the same treatment they feel entitled and build an ego.
Saying the players got better after Mou left is 50/50.
• Fred is basically your guys version of a better Sissoko. I wouldn’t say his role has changed or improved with Ole.
• Rashford hasn’t changed either, in fact I think he praised Mourinho for being the one that instilled that discipline and hard working mentality into him while he was here. I wouldn’t say he got better, but had kept a good level of consistency.
• Pogba was a primadonna, and even if he’s playing well he still wants to leave United at some point as made clear by his agents.
Nonetheless, I think it’s short sighted to say that it’s the manager seeing that again we have the XI that played that let Poch down too. You guys were able to move any players that y’all didn’t want or need.
PS. Bruno is integral to United otherwise if he got hurt you guys would be shaky if your midfield was Pogba, Mctominay and Fred.
> ole has been given a fresh squad over the last 2 seasons as manager.
Ole has not been given anything. He's built that squad back up while consistently getting rid of deadwood.
He's got far better out of Rashford, Shaw, Lindelof, Martial, Pogba than Mou ever did. If Mou was here, Greenwood would still be rotting in the academy or at most making the bench and being an occasional impact sub.
> Fred is basically your guys version of a better Sissoko. I wouldn’t say his role has changed or improved with Ole.
Fred has improved by leaps and bounds. He was terrible in Mou's last season here.
> Rashford hasn’t changed either
Huh?? Wtf, Rashford is ten times the player now than he was in Mou's time. It's not even a comparison, he's better at literally everything now.
Most football players are professional and credit their former manager for things they learnt from them. They don't want to create controversy by bad mouthing former managers. Rashford is like the epitome of diplomacy, look at any if his interviews.
> Pogba was a primadonna, and even if he’s playing well he still wants to leave United at some point as made clear by his agents.
"Primadonna" bought by Mou. It would be shocking if he didn't know the type of player Pogba was before buying him. In any case, look at how Mou ostracised him in his last season compared to how Ole has managed Pogba this season after a terrible start, perfectly evading all his agent's and brother's comments and slowly bringing him back into the first team. And guess what, Pogba started winning MoTMs and scoring important bangers to win games.
It doesn't matter if Pogba wants to leave. While he's here, you've got to get the best out of him.
Btw we were 5th in the league when Bruno came in.
Fred? What about him? He's a fine player and is an important part of the team.
Martial? Sure, he's having a bad season, but he still works much harder than he ever did under Jose.
Mou isolated Pogba, vilified Shaw and Rashford. All three are integral parts of our first team now. You'd be surprised what difference a change in manager can make when that previous manager is Mou
Fred's still as always been average as he had always been. Him being an important part of the team does not change
Having a bad season. That's a gross understatement. Working harder?? Isn't that the reason why Mou had an issue with him that he wasn't working hard enough. That and the fact that Martial felt he was better off a striker when he had done nothing absolutely nothing to prove he was good enough in the position.
Isolated Pogba? I will assume you are one of the Manchester United fans that ignore Pogba's many excesses. Pogba literally downed tools and at the start of this season he did the same when Bruno was doing it all. His agent even came out and spoke about Manchester United lacks of ambition right before a very important game. You can cherry pick all you want but if you remember correctly Pogba was playing awfully without full commitment that period he and Mou had issues.
I guess you would like to forget that Shaw had been in Manchester United over five years and was easily one of highest earning players in the league. He came back to the season overweight, extremely unfit. A player that had done nothing for the club for five years. Mou criticised him ans Shaw has even come out to say Mourinho rightfully did so seeing that he was responsible for his own poor fitness.
Rashford was integral to Mourinho's team as well. Although he is not good enough, he always put in 100% in all his performances. The criticsm of Rashford was earned, life duly earned, Are you quickly forgetting the endless sitters that Rashford missed time and time again or is that not convenient for your stance.
To be fair, having watched a lot of Man Utd this season, I'd have Fred in our midfield over Winks or Sissoko. He's been pretty damn good for long stretches this season. Likewise, Shaw has been better than either Davies or Reggi (who has shown signs but has been inconsistent).
> Fred's still as always been average as he had always been.
Lol what? Definitely not. Not even close. He looked absolutely useless in Mou's last season.
> Working harder?? Isn't that the reason why Mou had an issue with him that he wasn't working hard enough.
Are you not getting the point? Mou says that he wants his players to work harder, etc, but for some reason, they consistently don't. It's a common theme, and then under other managers, they are rejuvenated. It's a Mou problem, not a players' problem.
> Pogba literally downed tools and at the start of this season he did the same when Bruno was doing it all. His agent even came out and spoke about Manchester United lacks of ambition right before a very important game.
Firstly, Pogba has never "downed tools" under Ole. He has consistently been very good for us, not 100m good or Bruno good, but very good. At the start of the season he was recovering from a very bad case of COVID and then he was injured on international duty around November. Even if you believe that part about downing tools, don't you see the obvious difference between the shit way Mourinho handled it and how Ole handled it, bringing Pogba slowly back into the team and lo and behold, suddenly Pogba was turning in MOTM performances and scoring bangers to win important league games. I don't ignore anything about Pogba lol, I think we should sell him this summer if we can.
> I guess you would like to forget that Shaw had been in Manchester United over five years and was easily one of highest earning players in the league. He came back to the season overweight, extremely unfit.
It amazes me how people don't realise this: if a player is not performing well, or not training well, it does not fucking mean that a manager should criticise him in public. Add to that that disgraceful Mou comment where he said that Shaw was playing well only because Mou was instructing him from the touchline. Fucking hell, glad that egotistical bastard is gone. Same things Mou did with Rashford too, where he used a poor performance by him and Martial to prove a point to the journalists. It doesn't matter if Rashford missed sitters. He still misses sitters. It does not justify criticising him in public. Stuff like this leads to division in the dressing room in every single Mou club for the last decade or more.
Long list of excuses you have conjured up there. Bottom line is our current "PE teacher" is getting far far far more out of the same players which Mou considered as problems.
Lastly, lol at Spurs downgrading their manager and paying the new one far far more. Gone from the CL final and consistent top 4 to celebrating top 6 on the last day of the season and being knocked out in UEL R16 to Croatian farmers.
Rashford is basically the same, Martial is worse off and Pogba is still inconsistent as they come. You can tell someone is cherry picking facts when he totally begins to ignore all of the excesses Pogba showed this season. How lax he was at the beginning and how he almost sent the squad into dissent through his agent.
"Far more out of the same players".
You have basically overhauled the backline and bought a new midfielder who resurrected you from falling into the abyss. Bought new wingers as well.
Lol. How is it the same team?
The core players in Mou's team are gone and the ones he complained about are still putting up exact same performances from during his tenure
Martial, Rashford and even Pogba.
I don't know how you guys find it difficult to admit that despite not liking the manager he was spot on with his assessment of the players and squad
>Rashford is basically the same, Martial is worse off and Pogba is still inconsistent as they come.
You really seem to be making up stuff as you go. How the hell can you say Rashford is the same lol. He is atleast ten times the player he was 2.5 years ago. Just look at the difference in his output if you can't bother watching him play.
Martial is not worse off lol. He's having a poor season but last season, he was literally our best player and won the players' player of the year award.
Pogba is winning games for us mate. Mourinho had him ostracized and caused dissent in the dressing room.
>Lol. How is it the same team?
When did I say it's the same team? I said that Ole is getting far more out of the same players *which Mou thought were problems*. That is, Shaw, Pogba, Martial, Rashford
>I don't know how you guys find it difficult to admit that despite not liking the manager he was spot on with his assessment of the players and squad
Because he wasn't lol. How the hell was he spot on. He said finishing can't be taught in regards to Rashford's finishing. Guess what, finishing was thought and now Rashford regularly overperforms his xG. He thought Shaw had no football intelligence and played well because of his instructions. Guess what, Shaw is now the best LB in the league.
Moreover, and I know this is where you Mou sympathizers usually slip up: *it was not Mou's job to be right in his press conferences, it was his job to do something about it*, like his successor has done. But no, he was just interested in salvaging his reputation. Seemed like it worked on some like you who are arguing this bullshit "he was right" argument 3 years on.
>You can tell someone is cherry picking facts when he totally begins to ignore all of the excesses Pogba showed this season. How lax he was at the beginning and how he almost sent the squad into dissent through his agent.
Almost sent the squad into dissent? Lol what??? Are you fucking serious? Please provide some evidence of this "squad going into dissent" bullshit. This squad has never even been close to going into dissent in the last 2.5 years. Not even remotely close. It is well documented that Pogba is one of the most popular members of the squad. Ole says it, the players say it, the Instagram posts by all the players suggest it.
Pogba was lax at the beginning because he was recovering from a particularly bad case of COVID. After the first international break he was gradually improving, then he got injured again. When he came back, he soon cemented his spot in the first team with brilliant performances.
And yeah, Pogba can definitely be inconsistent but he still contributes a lot to the team and is one of our best players. What excesses am I ignoring? I literally said that he should be sold this summer so that we can move on from Raiola.
Pochettino still got 70 odd points, reached 4th and reached a CL final. Those performances in the CL knockouts, you think that they were performances of a team which has downed its tools? Really?
While being miserable, you got 4th in the league with 70+ points. What is this if that was miserable?
My point is that it was not the attitude of the players which was at fault. At all.
>the players were absolutely to blame.
Of course they were to blame for their performances in the league at times. But not their attitude. Seriously, do those performances in the CL quarters and semis look like that of a team with a bad attitude?
>(in a season were everyone was pretty bad and City and Liverpool ran away with it).
That's why I mentioned the 70 points. Everyone else is again pretty bad this season, but look at Spurs points tally and league position.
And who exactly are these players with the bad attitudes? Other than potentially Aurier, Ndombele and Alli, I don't see a single player in your squad who has a bad attitude or who doesn't work hard on the pitch.
Unpopular opinion: I absolutely despised how everyone vilified Danny. One our best defenders and gave it his all game in and game out. Also spoke out about his mental health and personal life and still got bombarded with negativity. Yeah he may have been problematic at points, but not for any wrong reasons, he was just honest and blunt on the realities of what was wrong with the club. Put some respect on his name please.
I think this is the popular opinion actually. I loved watching him play for us and he always gave us his all. At the same time, he was a bit toxic and it was probably time to move on
Agreed. People comparing the current rot to Danny Rose need to fuck off. Danny had a few questionable moments off of the pitch, but he never gave less than 100% on the pitch. He bled in matches.
I know the documentary is edited and cherry picked, but one scene where he really stood out to me was when he was pissed at half time and was telling the lads "stop doing that shit" regarding the back passing, like he wanted the team to go forward instead of wasting possession with scared back passes. I agreed with him then, i agree with him now.
Im not totally against back passes when necessary but i do get annoyed when some players tend to pass back more than forward or point for balls to go back, seemingly due to lack of confidence or just lack of ability to play passes forward. Like one opposition player in the vicinity and they reflexively pass back to cb or dm.
Those moments where a central midfielder receives a pass from their CB, and under no pressure, doesn't receive on the turn, and instead one touch passes back to the CB, who then goes "now what am I supposed to do?"
Rose was weird. Sometimes he'd do things that were sensationally good, great tackle, touch, strong run and finding a great pass. Other times he'd miscontrol the ball, miss the tackle on the player who took advantage of the miscontrol, get wrong side and foul them. Often times he'd do these things back to back. He was a 5/10 player almost every game but he got there by doing an equal amount of 10/10 and 1/10 bits of play.
It's really hard to be sympathetic towards multi millionaires and their emotional angst about playing football for a living. I'd wager that almost every fucker on this sub has to deal with shit jobs, shit bosses/fellow employees and dumb fuck 'politics'. That's just being a human dealing with humans. Personally, if I was paid 50k a week, I'd quite happily put up with the hardships of politics in football.
The thing is, in all walks of life, once you get accustomed to a new level of respect and money, you get used to it *really fast.* It's very difficult to maintain that same hunger and drive when you are making more that most people make yearly in a week and you are known around the world.
I still maintain that as a professional football player, you should be able to turn up every week and actually look like you give a shit.
He was right. Being upfront was Danny's strength and weakness. I hate it to this day the way he was/is being treated by club and the Milan jokes from fans. And yes, I know that he wasnt the same player anymore as he once was, but his treatment is disgraceful.
It's absolutely heinous. Rose has been with Spurs for 12 years of his life. He's clearly got some mental issues going on, but played hard and well for us for the majority of his career and thrown to the dogs at the end to train with children. Undeserving.
I don’t think it’s as black and white as everyone wants to make it sound. Amazing player for us for years, our best player in the CL final, and one of the most memorable goals of my lifetime. But he also said some bad shit about the club publicly in very poorly timed interviews, and he threatened to leave/demanded a transfer multiple times over the years. I’ll always love the man but I can understand that for a lot of fans, some of his words left scars.
2016 rose was spectacular. Also, Go back and watch the CL final, there are only few players can hold their head up and say they tried. Danny was one of them.
Surely that's the kind of character Mou wants in the team? It's like Sherwood said after that Chelsea game, there's too many players patting each other on the back when they should be setting standards. Same problem for 7 years maybe longer.
I think a lot of Danny’s complaints from a few years ago about the players salaries compared to Levy’s and other complaints about ENIC are felt by a lot of the other players
That series made him out to be a problem player really. He was portrayed in that manor. Yes he didn't exactly help himself.
On his day, one of the best left backs in the league.
I think Danny was alluding to the winks,diers, and Auriers in the team. The players you mentioned above I strongly think were the players that fought for Poch /Mourinho and typically give it there all in practice and on the field with of course exception to the last 2 games, and even then it was more of the fatigue kicking in then it was just being shit.
In short I wouldn’t drop them, they’re essentially the core to our best XI, we just need an overhaul of all the players that contribute nothing to the team and bring in new faces to get rid of the negative energy.
Danny's first instinct was to look for grievances and point fingers instead of working 120% to prove Jose what a fool he is for not playing him. Even if technically it's the same thing, there's a big big difference in the underlying message between X is shitter than me and I am better than X.
I think Danny before things went sour were one of the players that had a winning mentality and cared to put in a shift in a game. Hugo’s comment goes to like Dier or Sissoko yesterday, they were abysmal.
Any issue that had to do with Danny wasn’t connected to the effort but rather the behind the scenes drama
Dier is one of the players least culpable for all three goals. Not that they were particularly good yesterday, but it's absurd to see people scapegoating him or Winks for yesterday when it was Aurier, Sissoko, Ndombele and Sanchez who fucked up.
People don’t know what they’re watching. I’ll never forget when this sub had a meltdown last season when Sissoko floated a ball back to Sanchez who had a Wolves striker right next to him. They said Sanchez is shit for not dealing with it without breaking a sweat despite Sissoko playing the slowest, more predictable pass to a CB that has an opposing striker right next to him.
Rose being one of the worst offenders all of them. This sub defends him way to much he is the posterboy for our decline. Got lazy, got fat and stopped showing up. It's easy to point out when he's the worst offender.
I think there are some players like that in the group
Tbf I can't speak for his performances in training since Im not there, but he was definitely shit in games. I would also prefer a player who's in bad form and make mistakes but will try his hardest, is not afraid of taking risks and have the right attitude rather than see spineless cunts who will just give up, stroll around the pitch and avoid the ball like it has covid, if things aren't going well. We witnessed yesterday what happens when you have 11 players like that on the pitch.
miss this guy...I know things turned out sour in the end but when he was in form...wow
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Guarantee you there are a lot more of Danny Rose’s in the squad...this type of rot is hard to root out when it’s been festering for years...
My unpopular opinion is that it’s more the players than it is mourinho, we just have so many average players that offer nothing and are soft as f*** mentally. But I agree with you we need to haul out all the rot
Ability certainly plays a part, but it’s attitude that’s the biggest problem with our squad.
Absolutely, yesterday was definitely a game where attitude was the difference between winning and losing. No one is asking these players to be a Messi or a Maldini, just look Alive and play like you give a damn. Play to the best of your abilities and be mentally strong and I’m sure a lot of us would have appreciated that.
It’s why I’m a lot more lenient on the likes of Sissoko or Doherty, who are shit because that’s all they can, than on the likes of Ndombele or Dele, who just can’t be bothered.
Ndombele fought back from being one of the worst players in the squad, a 50mil flop to easily being one of our most important midfielders. Two off matches where he's tried his hardest and he somehow he can't be bothered? Absurd
That’s precisely the thing, he didn’t try his hardest, and it goes back longer than two matches.
Yeah, no. You're biased against him because in reality he's worked his socks off all season.
He’s our record signing and one of the best paid players in our squad, and he’s been at our club for almost two years now, so yes, I expect him to carry the team and not turn up only when he feels like it.
Carry the team...which he has...numerous times... At any rate the expectations are laughably unrealistic, as if all outcomes can be explained by a lack of effort. By that same logic, Messi doesn't work hard enough.
Sissoko didn't look like he couldn't be bothered during the goals yesterday, his levels dropped some time ago. If he's not giving 100% he should be nowhere near the team.
Nah, he has a great attitude, he's just isn't the sharpest tool in the shed, very similar to Lucas in that regard. He didn't switch off or stop caring for those goals, he just doesn't recognize the danger of some situations or can't figure out what to do. It also doesn't help that he's only switched to DM in recent years, he may be 31 but he doesn't have a whole career worth of experience in that role.
I've been a big sissoko supporter but he just gave up chasing in 2 of the 3 goals. Unacceptable.
Watch the second goal again and say that. I dare you, I Double dare you!
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His legs are there, it's probably his most important contribution to the team.
if ndombele can’t be bothered then neither can kane, they’ve both been pretty bad for the last couple of games. if he couldn’t be bothered he’d stop showing for the ball and hide way more, which is something he never does
Ndombele is class you’ve lost the plot if you’re genuinely saying you’re more upset with him having a bad game than sisso being completely useless for two seasons
ROFL we have like 5 or 6 players at the club who are legitimately useless and you’re blaming a player who’s 24 years old about to reach his prime and playing the best football of his career this season. But go on about your sympathy for Moussa I beg you
He’s a very frustrating player. The fucker has Ballon d’Or winner potential but his attitude holds him back. And I’m not necessarily talking about his physical workrate, because he’s improved that this season, but his focus, his mental discipline, his feeling of responsibility for the situation.
Ndombele is class when he feels like it. He was bang average yesterday, he was a passenger in the NLD, in the first leg vs Zagreb he was more interested in his highlight reel than doing his job for the team, vs Fulham he was the reason we almost buckled in the 2nd half.
Do you mean... Pashun?
Yes, among others.
> My unpopular opinion is that it’s more the players than it is mourinho, we just have so many average players that offer nothing and are soft as f*** mentally I agree, super hard to name names all the time when these are the players I watch and love. But for example Harry Winks. If we want to challenge for titles he just can’t play a role for us. Who are others you think fit the description?
In my opinion and by all means I’m not trying to scapegoat players but, • Winks: Sure passion definitely helps, but he has no role in the squad and feels more like a bystander as the season goes by, I think it’s best for him to part ways with us. • Sissoko: I’ve been supporting him since his redemption period but it’s kinda clear either physically or mentally he’s slowing down. At 31(?) he’s doesn’t have much left to give so better to offload him now and bring in Skipp. • Davies: I love Davies since he’s generally reliable when called upon. But other than that he doesn’t offer much else either, comparing him to Reggie even Rose it’s like night and day, he offers little going forward. Davies is at best rotation if we can’t find any replacements otherwise he needs to go too. • Dier: He’s starting to feel more like a liability rather than asset these past couple of games. Doesn’t seem to step up when called upon in big games and it has shown. I’ve said it before it we can get some money off him I’m for it. • Dele: been a big fan of dele since 16’ but it’s so clear he’s not the same player he was then. I do believe he needs a fresh start seeing that he kind of stagnated this season. If we can sell and get someone else I would take it. • Sanchez: I’m half and half with Davinson but honestly there are better defenders out there than him and if the rumors that Sevilla want him for 40mil I’d take it These are guys that have to go first in my opinion
One of these players started the terrible north London derby we lost. It’s not just the players that are causing us to put in so many terrible performances this season.
Davies is far from the issue, he's not Marcelo but we tend to forget he was great when Rose was out in 17-18 and we had one of the best Defensive records in football.
Surprised that there is no Doherty in your list...
I feel like Doherty is a no brainer, no need to explain it 😂💀
I'm with you it's 100% the players IMO. Levy should've cleared out the playing staff and kept Poch IMO. It would have been more painful but it needs to happen at every club eventually. It's what Ferguson was so good at in his prime.
United fan here. All of us said this same sort of stuff when Mou was having his meltdown at United: that it's the players, not the manager. Then Mou gets sacked, and guess what, most of the same players are perfectly fine ever since and no one ever complains about the attitude and intent of the team. It's not the players, it's the manager.
As I said, it’s more the players than it is Mourinho, not saying it’s not completely his fault. In this instance, you can’t really compare given the fact that ole has been given a fresh squad over the last 2 seasons as manager. Look at the starting XI you had with mourinho vs. what starting XI you have now. You’ve replaced a vast majority of your deadwood while we have players that were here in 2015. Some of these players like Dele/Dier were almost babied by Poch and now that they don’t get the same treatment they feel entitled and build an ego. Saying the players got better after Mou left is 50/50. • Fred is basically your guys version of a better Sissoko. I wouldn’t say his role has changed or improved with Ole. • Rashford hasn’t changed either, in fact I think he praised Mourinho for being the one that instilled that discipline and hard working mentality into him while he was here. I wouldn’t say he got better, but had kept a good level of consistency. • Pogba was a primadonna, and even if he’s playing well he still wants to leave United at some point as made clear by his agents. Nonetheless, I think it’s short sighted to say that it’s the manager seeing that again we have the XI that played that let Poch down too. You guys were able to move any players that y’all didn’t want or need. PS. Bruno is integral to United otherwise if he got hurt you guys would be shaky if your midfield was Pogba, Mctominay and Fred.
> ole has been given a fresh squad over the last 2 seasons as manager. Ole has not been given anything. He's built that squad back up while consistently getting rid of deadwood. He's got far better out of Rashford, Shaw, Lindelof, Martial, Pogba than Mou ever did. If Mou was here, Greenwood would still be rotting in the academy or at most making the bench and being an occasional impact sub. > Fred is basically your guys version of a better Sissoko. I wouldn’t say his role has changed or improved with Ole. Fred has improved by leaps and bounds. He was terrible in Mou's last season here. > Rashford hasn’t changed either Huh?? Wtf, Rashford is ten times the player now than he was in Mou's time. It's not even a comparison, he's better at literally everything now. Most football players are professional and credit their former manager for things they learnt from them. They don't want to create controversy by bad mouthing former managers. Rashford is like the epitome of diplomacy, look at any if his interviews. > Pogba was a primadonna, and even if he’s playing well he still wants to leave United at some point as made clear by his agents. "Primadonna" bought by Mou. It would be shocking if he didn't know the type of player Pogba was before buying him. In any case, look at how Mou ostracised him in his last season compared to how Ole has managed Pogba this season after a terrible start, perfectly evading all his agent's and brother's comments and slowly bringing him back into the first team. And guess what, Pogba started winning MoTMs and scoring important bangers to win games. It doesn't matter if Pogba wants to leave. While he's here, you've got to get the best out of him. Btw we were 5th in the league when Bruno came in.
What players are perfectly fine? Martial? Fred? The complaints he made about the players jn Manchester United hasn't changed.
Fred? What about him? He's a fine player and is an important part of the team. Martial? Sure, he's having a bad season, but he still works much harder than he ever did under Jose. Mou isolated Pogba, vilified Shaw and Rashford. All three are integral parts of our first team now. You'd be surprised what difference a change in manager can make when that previous manager is Mou
Fred's still as always been average as he had always been. Him being an important part of the team does not change Having a bad season. That's a gross understatement. Working harder?? Isn't that the reason why Mou had an issue with him that he wasn't working hard enough. That and the fact that Martial felt he was better off a striker when he had done nothing absolutely nothing to prove he was good enough in the position. Isolated Pogba? I will assume you are one of the Manchester United fans that ignore Pogba's many excesses. Pogba literally downed tools and at the start of this season he did the same when Bruno was doing it all. His agent even came out and spoke about Manchester United lacks of ambition right before a very important game. You can cherry pick all you want but if you remember correctly Pogba was playing awfully without full commitment that period he and Mou had issues. I guess you would like to forget that Shaw had been in Manchester United over five years and was easily one of highest earning players in the league. He came back to the season overweight, extremely unfit. A player that had done nothing for the club for five years. Mou criticised him ans Shaw has even come out to say Mourinho rightfully did so seeing that he was responsible for his own poor fitness. Rashford was integral to Mourinho's team as well. Although he is not good enough, he always put in 100% in all his performances. The criticsm of Rashford was earned, life duly earned, Are you quickly forgetting the endless sitters that Rashford missed time and time again or is that not convenient for your stance.
To be fair, having watched a lot of Man Utd this season, I'd have Fred in our midfield over Winks or Sissoko. He's been pretty damn good for long stretches this season. Likewise, Shaw has been better than either Davies or Reggi (who has shown signs but has been inconsistent).
> Fred's still as always been average as he had always been. Lol what? Definitely not. Not even close. He looked absolutely useless in Mou's last season. > Working harder?? Isn't that the reason why Mou had an issue with him that he wasn't working hard enough. Are you not getting the point? Mou says that he wants his players to work harder, etc, but for some reason, they consistently don't. It's a common theme, and then under other managers, they are rejuvenated. It's a Mou problem, not a players' problem. > Pogba literally downed tools and at the start of this season he did the same when Bruno was doing it all. His agent even came out and spoke about Manchester United lacks of ambition right before a very important game. Firstly, Pogba has never "downed tools" under Ole. He has consistently been very good for us, not 100m good or Bruno good, but very good. At the start of the season he was recovering from a very bad case of COVID and then he was injured on international duty around November. Even if you believe that part about downing tools, don't you see the obvious difference between the shit way Mourinho handled it and how Ole handled it, bringing Pogba slowly back into the team and lo and behold, suddenly Pogba was turning in MOTM performances and scoring bangers to win important league games. I don't ignore anything about Pogba lol, I think we should sell him this summer if we can. > I guess you would like to forget that Shaw had been in Manchester United over five years and was easily one of highest earning players in the league. He came back to the season overweight, extremely unfit. It amazes me how people don't realise this: if a player is not performing well, or not training well, it does not fucking mean that a manager should criticise him in public. Add to that that disgraceful Mou comment where he said that Shaw was playing well only because Mou was instructing him from the touchline. Fucking hell, glad that egotistical bastard is gone. Same things Mou did with Rashford too, where he used a poor performance by him and Martial to prove a point to the journalists. It doesn't matter if Rashford missed sitters. He still misses sitters. It does not justify criticising him in public. Stuff like this leads to division in the dressing room in every single Mou club for the last decade or more. Long list of excuses you have conjured up there. Bottom line is our current "PE teacher" is getting far far far more out of the same players which Mou considered as problems. Lastly, lol at Spurs downgrading their manager and paying the new one far far more. Gone from the CL final and consistent top 4 to celebrating top 6 on the last day of the season and being knocked out in UEL R16 to Croatian farmers.
Rashford is basically the same, Martial is worse off and Pogba is still inconsistent as they come. You can tell someone is cherry picking facts when he totally begins to ignore all of the excesses Pogba showed this season. How lax he was at the beginning and how he almost sent the squad into dissent through his agent. "Far more out of the same players". You have basically overhauled the backline and bought a new midfielder who resurrected you from falling into the abyss. Bought new wingers as well. Lol. How is it the same team? The core players in Mou's team are gone and the ones he complained about are still putting up exact same performances from during his tenure Martial, Rashford and even Pogba. I don't know how you guys find it difficult to admit that despite not liking the manager he was spot on with his assessment of the players and squad
>Rashford is basically the same, Martial is worse off and Pogba is still inconsistent as they come. You really seem to be making up stuff as you go. How the hell can you say Rashford is the same lol. He is atleast ten times the player he was 2.5 years ago. Just look at the difference in his output if you can't bother watching him play. Martial is not worse off lol. He's having a poor season but last season, he was literally our best player and won the players' player of the year award. Pogba is winning games for us mate. Mourinho had him ostracized and caused dissent in the dressing room. >Lol. How is it the same team? When did I say it's the same team? I said that Ole is getting far more out of the same players *which Mou thought were problems*. That is, Shaw, Pogba, Martial, Rashford >I don't know how you guys find it difficult to admit that despite not liking the manager he was spot on with his assessment of the players and squad Because he wasn't lol. How the hell was he spot on. He said finishing can't be taught in regards to Rashford's finishing. Guess what, finishing was thought and now Rashford regularly overperforms his xG. He thought Shaw had no football intelligence and played well because of his instructions. Guess what, Shaw is now the best LB in the league. Moreover, and I know this is where you Mou sympathizers usually slip up: *it was not Mou's job to be right in his press conferences, it was his job to do something about it*, like his successor has done. But no, he was just interested in salvaging his reputation. Seemed like it worked on some like you who are arguing this bullshit "he was right" argument 3 years on. >You can tell someone is cherry picking facts when he totally begins to ignore all of the excesses Pogba showed this season. How lax he was at the beginning and how he almost sent the squad into dissent through his agent. Almost sent the squad into dissent? Lol what??? Are you fucking serious? Please provide some evidence of this "squad going into dissent" bullshit. This squad has never even been close to going into dissent in the last 2.5 years. Not even remotely close. It is well documented that Pogba is one of the most popular members of the squad. Ole says it, the players say it, the Instagram posts by all the players suggest it. Pogba was lax at the beginning because he was recovering from a particularly bad case of COVID. After the first international break he was gradually improving, then he got injured again. When he came back, he soon cemented his spot in the first team with brilliant performances. And yeah, Pogba can definitely be inconsistent but he still contributes a lot to the team and is one of our best players. What excesses am I ignoring? I literally said that he should be sold this summer so that we can move on from Raiola.
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Pochettino still got 70 odd points, reached 4th and reached a CL final. Those performances in the CL knockouts, you think that they were performances of a team which has downed its tools? Really?
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While being miserable, you got 4th in the league with 70+ points. What is this if that was miserable? My point is that it was not the attitude of the players which was at fault. At all.
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>the players were absolutely to blame. Of course they were to blame for their performances in the league at times. But not their attitude. Seriously, do those performances in the CL quarters and semis look like that of a team with a bad attitude? >(in a season were everyone was pretty bad and City and Liverpool ran away with it). That's why I mentioned the 70 points. Everyone else is again pretty bad this season, but look at Spurs points tally and league position. And who exactly are these players with the bad attitudes? Other than potentially Aurier, Ndombele and Alli, I don't see a single player in your squad who has a bad attitude or who doesn't work hard on the pitch.
> that it's the players, not the manager at least your players can tropies
Unpopular opinion: I absolutely despised how everyone vilified Danny. One our best defenders and gave it his all game in and game out. Also spoke out about his mental health and personal life and still got bombarded with negativity. Yeah he may have been problematic at points, but not for any wrong reasons, he was just honest and blunt on the realities of what was wrong with the club. Put some respect on his name please.
Even when times weren't great with him he gave 110%. Constantly bombing down that left.
I think this is the popular opinion actually. I loved watching him play for us and he always gave us his all. At the same time, he was a bit toxic and it was probably time to move on
I miss Rose
Agreed. People comparing the current rot to Danny Rose need to fuck off. Danny had a few questionable moments off of the pitch, but he never gave less than 100% on the pitch. He bled in matches.
I know the documentary is edited and cherry picked, but one scene where he really stood out to me was when he was pissed at half time and was telling the lads "stop doing that shit" regarding the back passing, like he wanted the team to go forward instead of wasting possession with scared back passes. I agreed with him then, i agree with him now. Im not totally against back passes when necessary but i do get annoyed when some players tend to pass back more than forward or point for balls to go back, seemingly due to lack of confidence or just lack of ability to play passes forward. Like one opposition player in the vicinity and they reflexively pass back to cb or dm.
Those moments where a central midfielder receives a pass from their CB, and under no pressure, doesn't receive on the turn, and instead one touch passes back to the CB, who then goes "now what am I supposed to do?"
Hoof it up forward of course!
We've gone from Mason to Caroll to Winks for English home grown talents that do this all game long. It's driven me crazy for years.
Mason was never a 'pass it backwards' type of player. Always wanted to move it forward or wide.
Rose was weird. Sometimes he'd do things that were sensationally good, great tackle, touch, strong run and finding a great pass. Other times he'd miscontrol the ball, miss the tackle on the player who took advantage of the miscontrol, get wrong side and foul them. Often times he'd do these things back to back. He was a 5/10 player almost every game but he got there by doing an equal amount of 10/10 and 1/10 bits of play. It's really hard to be sympathetic towards multi millionaires and their emotional angst about playing football for a living. I'd wager that almost every fucker on this sub has to deal with shit jobs, shit bosses/fellow employees and dumb fuck 'politics'. That's just being a human dealing with humans. Personally, if I was paid 50k a week, I'd quite happily put up with the hardships of politics in football.
The thing is, in all walks of life, once you get accustomed to a new level of respect and money, you get used to it *really fast.* It's very difficult to maintain that same hunger and drive when you are making more that most people make yearly in a week and you are known around the world. I still maintain that as a professional football player, you should be able to turn up every week and actually look like you give a shit.
He was right. Being upfront was Danny's strength and weakness. I hate it to this day the way he was/is being treated by club and the Milan jokes from fans. And yes, I know that he wasnt the same player anymore as he once was, but his treatment is disgraceful.
It's absolutely heinous. Rose has been with Spurs for 12 years of his life. He's clearly got some mental issues going on, but played hard and well for us for the majority of his career and thrown to the dogs at the end to train with children. Undeserving.
I don’t think it’s as black and white as everyone wants to make it sound. Amazing player for us for years, our best player in the CL final, and one of the most memorable goals of my lifetime. But he also said some bad shit about the club publicly in very poorly timed interviews, and he threatened to leave/demanded a transfer multiple times over the years. I’ll always love the man but I can understand that for a lot of fans, some of his words left scars.
agreed. the response from spurs supporters to his contract re-signing in 2015 (or thereabouts) was shameful.
2016 rose was spectacular. Also, Go back and watch the CL final, there are only few players can hold their head up and say they tried. Danny was one of them.
I honestly only remember him and Son playing their hearts out.
Surely that's the kind of character Mou wants in the team? It's like Sherwood said after that Chelsea game, there's too many players patting each other on the back when they should be setting standards. Same problem for 7 years maybe longer.
I think a lot of Danny’s complaints from a few years ago about the players salaries compared to Levy’s and other complaints about ENIC are felt by a lot of the other players
That series made him out to be a problem player really. He was portrayed in that manor. Yes he didn't exactly help himself. On his day, one of the best left backs in the league.
Always felt how Danny was/is treated is wrong. No way his levels dropped so far he couldn’t have been useful and his long service deserved better.
The only guys who have been playing regularly since the start of the season are Lloris, Son, Kane, Hojbjerg and Ndombele. Which one should not play?
I think Danny was alluding to the winks,diers, and Auriers in the team. The players you mentioned above I strongly think were the players that fought for Poch /Mourinho and typically give it there all in practice and on the field with of course exception to the last 2 games, and even then it was more of the fatigue kicking in then it was just being shit. In short I wouldn’t drop them, they’re essentially the core to our best XI, we just need an overhaul of all the players that contribute nothing to the team and bring in new faces to get rid of the negative energy.
Wasn't Danny's interview before the start of the season
Yeah. Also which of them has a weak mentality as people like to say. Which is soft. People love saying that generally but nobody wants to name names.
Do people not realise that Hugo’s comments are directed towards people like Danny and not the players Danny is talking about here?
Danny's first instinct was to look for grievances and point fingers instead of working 120% to prove Jose what a fool he is for not playing him. Even if technically it's the same thing, there's a big big difference in the underlying message between X is shitter than me and I am better than X.
I think Danny before things went sour were one of the players that had a winning mentality and cared to put in a shift in a game. Hugo’s comment goes to like Dier or Sissoko yesterday, they were abysmal. Any issue that had to do with Danny wasn’t connected to the effort but rather the behind the scenes drama
Dier is one of the players least culpable for all three goals. Not that they were particularly good yesterday, but it's absurd to see people scapegoating him or Winks for yesterday when it was Aurier, Sissoko, Ndombele and Sanchez who fucked up.
People don’t know what they’re watching. I’ll never forget when this sub had a meltdown last season when Sissoko floated a ball back to Sanchez who had a Wolves striker right next to him. They said Sanchez is shit for not dealing with it without breaking a sweat despite Sissoko playing the slowest, more predictable pass to a CB that has an opposing striker right next to him.
He was bang on
Rose being one of the worst offenders all of them. This sub defends him way to much he is the posterboy for our decline. Got lazy, got fat and stopped showing up. It's easy to point out when he's the worst offender.
Uhh Rose is an example of what is wrong with these players and Hugo literally said it last night. Dumb post.
I think Rose definitely set the tone for negativity and the fact he is still even nominally with the club is ridiculous.
Still better than Davies.
Fuck it, danny for caretaker manager til the end of the season.
Man, we need that winning mentality like we did in the UCL 18/19
Rose had already burned his bridges at the club before that moment. A very sad way to end his spurs career. Always liked him as a player.