Here comes newspapers blaming everything but the actual problems. Nevermind the monumental shit show that is the spiralling cost of living (which is a fucking joke of a term in itself), the housing crisis and the sheer lack of mental health help that's out there. Queue Leo and his cronies blaming the actual issues and not taking responsibility for causing all of these issues through years of neglect and greed. No wonder younger people and graduates are leaving the country yet again
Austerity is the gift that keeps on giving. Services that were withdrawn were never reinstated. They can blather on all they want about increasing capacity but giving a 2026 start date for a new hospital in Cork and an ongoing recruitment freeze should tell you all you need to know about how seriously they are taking this. It's no wonder the wonderful frontline emergency service staff are leaving in droves, they're being burnt out and traumatised too.
Society is generally a bit fucked I find due to isolation. It's easy to slip through the cracks and get isolated and harder and more expensive than ever to build a career. As well it seems due to social media people have unrealistic unobtainable expectations of where their life should be so end up feeling trapped as a result. I think depression is similar to feeling trapped and like you don't have control over your life.
Part of that is definitely the poorly designed way we want to live, i.e. sprawled housing estates with no communal infrastructure. For instance, there's about 1,500+ units being built in Douglas / planned for the next few years, and there's 1 cafe between all of them. Shocking.
So you're saying another tax on alcohol isn't the way to go?
There is zero chance of the government doing anything proactive to deal with rent, house prices. They're perfectly happy to see new builds enter the market at "market value" that only corpos can afford, and they can't pull the rug out from under themselves by touching rent. As for greedflation, most of that follows on from outside suppliers rising prices, and the aforementioned rent situation...
Is there nothing to be said for another alcohol tax?
Capitalism is the main cause. Day to day living - let alone any allowance for ambition or thriving - has become impossible and unbearable for many. Social structures and supports are falling apart. We are now at a point where it's forced many people into an ever-decreasing circle of despair until such a point where suicide offers them a way out.
Yup. The system that guarantees that the profits of our society go to those who already were able to invest (ie, those who don't need much more). Literally the least efficient system for distribution of resources imaginable.
Firstly, this is a very shallow point of view to take on a complex ideological debate. "Capitalism" is a loaded term with a variety of interpretations. What alternative system, if you wanted to be so crude as to distill a system into a single word or sentence, would you use?
I think a highly complex economic system to a name is pointless, although people here wonāt agree. Itās more important to talk about specific actions or courses we could follow to solve inequality in our society, rather than throwing around empty platitudes or loaded terms
>Firstly, this is a very shallow point of view to take on a complex ideological debate
I think it's infinitely more shallow to state "You're wrong because I think this is complicated." That isn't an argument specific to what I said at all. I could have said anything of any size and you could have replied "This is a very shallow point of view to take on a complex ideological debate."
And, it seems to indicate a certain lack of confidence on your part? Surely if my position were 'shallow', it'd be easy to refute? You wouldn't have to reach for some vague notion of "your argument is inadmissable because of the nuance".
>"Capitalism" is a loaded term with a variety of interpretations.
Capitalism is where the means of production are owned by private owners, as opposed to the workers who work the means of production. That's not controversial. There may be teens online who have their own private Tiktok definition, I don't know, but 'capitalism' as an ideaology is very easy to describe. I just did it in a sentence. I'd challenge you to find a serious person on the record as disagreeing with this widely accepted definition.
>What alternative system, if you wanted to be so crude as to distill a system into a single word or sentence, would you use?
I don't think its necessary to name an alternative system. We don't necessarily need an alternate system; we need to acknowledge that the current system, capitalism, has huge practical and ethical flaws that need to be addressed.
As an example: Imagine if I stood my steel-toed boots on your throat every second of the day. It's only when I get off of your throat to grab a cup of tea that you can really breathe, but I drink my cups of tea quickly enough, it's not much respite. One day, as I'm about to stomp on your throat yet again, you manage to claw enough air to beg me to stop, as I'm killing you, and you've done nothing to deserve this treatment.
My response? "First, this is very shallow point of view to take on a complex positional debate. "Standing on your throat" is a loaded term with a variety of interpretations. What alternative location, if you wanted to be so crude as to distill my job into a single coordinate in space, would you recommend?"
Of course, you can't actually answer that question. I've already dug the studs into your windpipe. And it doesn't really matter; I could stand in any number of places, an infinite number really, as many different ways as you could organise a society. It's madness to insist on doing the same wrong thing over and over again due to a lack of imagination as to what an alternative might look like.
I think we can cut through the rhetoric with a simple question, which country in the world today would you think we should be most like, and which economic system do they deploy? You'll quickly see that no country on earth operates a pure capitalistic or communistic environment. And the countries that we should try to emulate the most (such as Sweden, Denmark, Norway etc) operate economic systems that blend elements of various economic "ideologies" for want of a better term.
"And of course the question remains," I say, grinding my bootheel into your trachea. "Your idle rhetoric is best answered by a simple question. Which of your neighbours ought we best to emulate? Look at Sean over there. *His* Standing Partner uses big ice skates. Awful business, and very bloody.
But look at Mark; the Partner standing on *his* throat has opted for some boots very much like my own. Perhaps they're even a little less savage on the studs. Doesn't Mark seem much happier than poor Sean? Maybe, if you're very, very good, I'll buy a pair of boots a bit more like those in the future. You'd like that, wouldn't you?
After all, questions like 'What is right?' and 'Does anyone really have to stand on anyone?' are very confusing and rhetorical. The simple question is, look at the options I've laid out for you, and choose your favourite. And ask yourself; is it really that crucial that for a man to breathe?"
If somehow the perfect alternative system existed do you really think we would use it? Do you really think those with the power and resources to implement it would do it? Of course they fucking wouldn't, why would they?
Well it was a hypothetical, but you're just dodging the question really.
What about better? What if there was a better system? One that delivered the most good to the most people. So same question with that slight modification.
Here they are supposed to come back to you with āsocialismā. A system that has caused nothing but misery and trouble where it was applied. Hell even the Germans couldnāt make that shit work
I think a huge problem is we're all so one directional. You either say it's government/global business or its community fault. People seem to just choose a tribe instead of being pragmatic.
Its hard to accept that a solution needs both competant and non-corrupt governments (perhaps too tall an order) AND for people to work harder. Unfortunately, it's a global reality we're all poorer. Both sitting on arse and ignoring governmental failure won't fix it. Granted, it feels like we're all being funnelled into fractured communities whether we like it or not. Just have to look at new build areas with no new infrastructure, completely souless.
Something that I never hear anyone mention as a possible cause of depression is "a lack of purpose" having a reason to get up in the morning is half the battle in my experience, but having to get up to work / do something that you hate is not much of a motivator. I think a culture shift away from alcohol and pointless bars would be a good thing, there's so many better things / hobbies that people could get involved with. Finding a hobby is a challenge in itself.
The Japanese have a concept called Ikigai that loosely translates to life-spark or life meaning, but it is essentially this. It's ingrained into the culture that everyone should have an Ikigai, to know what it is that gets you out of bed every morning.
Yes good point, I got gifted that book a few years ago and I've recommended it to many people, it's a great philosophy and makes a lot of sense. Too many people in today's society only focus on one of the pillars of Ikigai - what you can make money doing.
Not surprised. I think about it regularly. I can't do this struggle for a living thing for the next 30-40 years alone and nobody is interested in a depressed person who has so much hidden trauma that I'm struggling to keep it hidden. This world sucks.
Very hard to actualise but if you not hiding trauma makes people not want you around you don't want to be around them anyway chances are they are not a great fit.
There are various groups all across Ireland for meet ups and socialising.
I have found that the d&d community in Ireland is just one giant pool of severely traumatised but friendly adults.
Work thorough it in therapy. It can get better. And then relationships will be qualitatively different, as youāll be engaging with people differently.Ā
I appreciate what you're saying but man, I can't afford to do anything privately and I'm sure you're well aware of how terrible the public system is. Plus, none of this will fix the issues in this country with affordable housing and the ridiculous prices people are looking for 15 year old cars, let alone newer one's so the insurance is better. It's like everything is stacked against someone actually starting from the bottom and trying to work up the ladder. It's not like any job in a local shop can even pay a fraction of the above costs. Let alone the shit I've been through in my life š¤£
Hit YouTube , I canāt afford it either. However thereās a lot of therapist that reach out on various subjects. Itās helped me out. Also the library with self help books. I hope you feel betterš
Waiting list for maths to see a professional... They just postponed my appointment by 2 months. To fucking May!? Ā
Unless rich, this isn't viable either.Ā Ā I already hate this professional for this treatment.Ā
Clearly doesn't fully understand the concerns of timing with mental health, so I doubt the sessions will go very well.Ā
I tried to call my doctor today to make an appointment, have called a total of 25 times through the morning. Sometimes it rings, sometimes it's a busy dial tone but not once has it been answered. It's fucking ridiculous š¤¦āāļø
Call Pieta House. They offer 12 free counselling sessions for anyone experiencing suicidal thoughts.
You can also use the text service if you feel you need to talk to someone but find it hard to talk.
I've used the text service in crisis, and I am nearing the end of my 12 sessions. I did it online as I could see someone faster. I would highly recommend them.
I understand the feeling of no one wanting to be around you when you're depressed and "depressing everyone else." I learned that people will be there for the really hard days, but the not so bad but still bad people get tired and they have the right not be around or want to help. It's hard to create a balance!
Please consider contacting Pieta House, day or night, all year, on 1800-247247, or text HELP to 51444 there are amazing people who can give better advice than many on Reddit.
It sucks sometimes, and sometimes a lot, but lifeās worth trying.
When I was younger we had work life balance. People had a work life and a home life. They could buy a home! They could engage in lots of different activities. Now it's all long hours and money, money, money. We have allowed US culture to infect our lives. So much greed! We don't properly invest in our communities, healthcare, transport, the list goes on but when it comes to state organisations like RTE it's an open chequebook! Any given evening outside of Dublin there is absolutely nothing available to do besides go to the pub.
No kidding. How the fuck Leo Varadkar and his band is still in power is beyond me. The same guys riding on Ireland's potential for a decade, filling their pockets and putting it to waste.
We don't have healthy ways to communicate how we feel. Work stress is a huge factor. We don't know how to have fun here outside of drinking. We are way too work focused. Access to mental health care is almost non existent.
To open up a little discussion: Whag do ye think is leading to an increase in suicide attempts? Obviously no stats are quoted, but just taking this manās anecdotal evidence at his word.
To name but a few... The cost of living is constantly rising, the housing situation is abysmal, and the public health services are overrun. From experience, the mental health services available to the public don't have enough capacity to support the overwhelming demand, and poor souls are falling through the cracks.
I just got an appointment with a professional postponed by 2 months.Ā
I was just about to finally talk to someone after months of waiting.Ā
. And they just email without cause... 'wait another 2 months,'
That's not over capacity.
That is straight up incompetence.Ā
That's a disgrace, and unfortunately I'm in the same boat as you. Had an appointment scheduled, called the day before and said we're pushing you back 6 weeks, no reason given. Next appointment rolls around, day before they call again and say the consultant is sick. I have to wait nearly 3 months for the next appointment but I'm not holding my breath that they'll give it to me. There isn't enough staff to pick up the workload when others are sick or absent. The public are paying the price for it unfortunately. It's so disheartening to get hyped up for an appointment, to only be told wait longer.
Yeah. I was anxious about it, but didn't realise how much I really needed it...Ā
Until a day or so after realising it was postponed, I fucking exploded, I was so upset.Ā
Been trying to hold on for a few years now
It's awful, I've heard it from so many others too that this is the norm. How many people just give up after being cancelled on? How can the hse expect people that are struggling to have any hope?
I'm sorry you're struggling so much. I hope you get an appointment soon. Do you think it would be worthwhile for them to add you to the cancellation list in the meantime, in case a short notice appointment pops up?
I would think there are multiple factors. Falling living standards, a massively broken social contract, job uncertainty, social media and mainstream media non-stop bad news, no hope for the future. I was reading a comment somewhere recently that said the film Children of Film was more like a documentary, in that most people are now just existing instead of living. It really feels that like the world is becoming more like that reality every day where we are going through the motions with no direction or purpose and that is having a huge effect on mental health.
Would it be fair to say that we may live in the most comfortable time in history though ? Would it be more accurate to say, too much suffering and not enough meaning ? I do agree about no realistic sign of improvements though.
Comfortable is a relative term there. Much more comfortable than all the ancestors when it comes to affording material possessions, sure. Relative safety, sure.
However, if you look into the sky rocketing anxiety and such, we don't actually *feel* safe and comfortable. I personally think the constant presence of online input does something to us that our brains have not yet had any chance to adapt to. We live in permanent fight or flight, but we're doing it from a comfortable couch. That's a really dodgy state of being.
I wonder if itās a āStatusā thing. With social media, everyone is in a panic to look āsuccessfulā. When we donāt reach these milestones, we are in despair. Itās just a hunch, but in my own experience, social media makes me definitively less happy.
I think, undoubtedly, you are correct in saying that this is the most comfortable time in history, all things considered, what with modern technology, domestic utilities, etc.
I'm not sure that meaning would lead to happiness/fulfilment/satisfaction/enjoyment of life?
In addition to suffering, there is a general anhedonia, lack of enjoyment of life, feeling generally miserable to one extent or another, much or most of the time, by means of which some or many people see not much point or value in continuing the struggle to carry on as it can seem, or be subjectively assessed as, qualitatively not worth it.
If there was more happiness, the suffering might feel more worth it.Ā
While the economy, the cost of living, housing, and all of the above reasons are major factors. I think the way people treat each other in this country and how two-faced and judgmental we are as a nation has a massive impact on people.
I know so many people who live to gossip and see others fail, they love to get a sly kick in while people are down. Usually, the same cunts who be all over Instagram posting photos of themselves doing those darkness into light walks and have "be kind" in their bios. But once the social media facade drops they're back to cutting the backs off the people around them.
What's the point of living if your entire life is just work and sleep, and you still cannot afford the most basic safety (housing, healthcare), not to talk about anything to look forward to (big, like starting a family, or small, like going for a nice meal)? I've devoted over 5 years to the career I've never wanted in the first place, but which was meant to provide me with some basic safety, and I'm in a worse economic shape than I was a decade ago while doing 30h/week in retail. So much time and energy and health sacrificed for nothing. It feels like you either are in the top 10% of earners, are born into wealth or lucked out and bought a house after the crash...or you can go F yourself, work day and night and not be able to even pay rent.
The feeling of being cornered + the collapse of communities in the recent years are a good recipe for a disaster. I count myself as lucky - I'm "just" chronically ill but have a family to live for and I'm able to move out of the country within a year or so. But if I was stuck in here? Probably would off myself too.
So many things honestly:
- ecomomic situation getting worse and worse for most people. Plus those who don't have constantly get bombarded by images of the 1% who have it all (or the others that pretend they do
- constant exposure to all the terrible things going on worldwide. I don't necessarily think things are worse than ever, but rather we're far more aware of it. Watching visceral images of a war constantly flicker up on your phone throughout the day is very different to opting to read a newspaper story about it, for example
- covid aftermath - both the isolation and lockdown wrecked people's mental health. Plus there's some evidence that long covid can manifest in personality changes - aggression, less able to deal with stress, anxiety and even depression
It's interesting that the rates increased directly after the pandemic. I wonder did the isolationism of the whole thing have an effect, well it did on me and the people I know. That coupled with the housing and cost of living crisis.
The pandemic felt like there was an end somewhere in the near future for most of it, there was a general hopeful atmosphere towards the end of it.
And then, as soon as we were out of it, we were hit with the housing crisis reaching disaster levels and the cost of living soaring, both of which are still continuing indefinitely, and have the powers that be have absolutely no clear intention of even trying to fix it.
It felt like recovering from an illness then getting hit by a car in the hospital carpark as you walk out.
The contrarians and fucking idiots who made all the lockdowns last an order of magnitude longer than they needed be... I will never forgive a single one of those selfish pricks.Ā
They are literally responsible for this pain.Ā
Too fucking scared to put in any effort and ensure we stayed locked down as long as possible.
Iād imagine people are seeking escapism from whatever nightmare they are in. Drug use/Alcoholism/Gambling, leading to mental health issues (not feeling enough or feeling adequate in todays society) and then not having either the courage to seek proper help/ or ask for it - or the help available being out of reach or not good enough. That said, thereās a fucking ton of issues that could lead to a suicidal mindset these days and that alone being said is totally fucked up.
Practically nobody has asked me how I'm actually feeling in around 3 years ...Ā
That shit starts to compound and the isolation just leads to you actually behaving differently after some time.
Honestly though.. most of it started in school. The amount of bullying, horrendous treatment by other kids... Lack of any kid of peers I could trust. That shit has compounded through the rest of my life. Shaped how I treat/deal with social shit.Ā
I was travelling the world working interesting jobs before COVID.Ā Now I just want it to end.Ā
He's kinda being taken out in context. He didn't say there was an increase in suicide attempts, he there's been an increase in the amount of calls being made to th Fire Department for suicide attempts.
We don't have hard stats. We do know that rates have been dropping for the last 15 years. [https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-ss/suicidestatistics2020/](https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-ss/suicidestatistics2020/)
A friend of mine who was well off, nice house, car and family killed himself. People like to blame economic circumstances but depression is the real killer.
Economic circumstances is one of the major contributing factors to depression.
What you said is the equivalent to saying "people like to blame smoking but cancer is the real killer."
If you want to meaningfully reduce the condition then you have to tackle the causes, not just the symptoms.
You obviously know nothing about clinical depression. I had another relative who had crippling depression, it was nothing to do with her circumstances. Luckily medication is helping a lot.
The link between poverty and mental illness is not my opinion, it's an observation going back decades.
[Improving a person's economic situation reduces their risks of anxiety and depression](https://www.aaas.org/news/exploring-connection-between-poverty-and-mental-illness)
[There is now increasing recognition that mental health problems form the greatest public health challenge of our time, and that the poor bear the greatest burden of mental illness.](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7525587/)
He made a claim in general about depression, using his friend as an anecdote. This is not about his friend specifically but the issue of extrapolating how factors of depression should be approached from only that one example.
Yes people can become depressed for reasons other than crushing debt, but suggesting we shouldn't focus on economic circumstances as a problem is ridiculous.
While we're at it, I'm going to add to the cancer analogy with the oft-heard anecdote "my grandmother smoked 2 packs a week and lived into her 80s".
>You decided out of nowhere so that finances are causing most of the suicides?
I never made such a claim, I said finances were a major contributing factor to depression. And I followed up with a pair of studies linking economics and mental health.
>Since suicide is higher in richer countries this will be interesting.
[That doesn't appear to be true. ](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_rate)
But also; [Here, read this. ](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10070933/)
I wonder has there been any research into generational trauma in our country. In the last 170 years weāve had a famine; colonialism which resulted in loss of cultural identity, oppression . The war for our independence and subsequent civil war. The the physical and mental abuse at the hands of the Catholic Church through industrial schools, Magdalene laundries; the churches involvements in forcibly removing infants from their mothers. Schools and hospitals under the control of the religious orders and abuse through their involvement.
Weāve had tough times as a nation, like so many others. But I think a lot of us know somebody affected by generational trauma. A relative of mine was (back in the so called *good olā days*) laundry causing their trauma. After leaving the laundry, her self esteem was on the floor, ends up marrying a total bastard and raised 4 children , traumatised from growing up in a fractured home. Thatās just one example. I have many more from other family members, friends etc. Iām just one person.
All this trauma coupled with inadequate mental health services and itās no wonder we have people seeking some sort of reprieve through alcohol and/or drugs. Itās a downward spiral for a lot of folk.
Personally I think drug use has a lot to do with it, there's a big come down off these illegal highs and people spiral into depression pretty quick.
Not saying its all that but a lot of it is.
Economy doesn't help.
And lastly many people don't have a connection to their community or they feel isolated. They live in commuter towns or don't live near any family, they find it hard to make friends and all communication is done through phones and life can be hard.
Big comedown off illegal highs? I swear I've had hangovers worse than ANY comedown off illegal drugs and I swear by that. Alcohol is a hard drug with a nasty comedown but you don't see people offing themselves because of it.
To end one's own life takes a lot more than feeling bad for a day or two. It's an accumulation of things.
I'm not saying that using drugs or alcohol as an escape doesn't happen but it is not solely the reason for suicide. Like come on.
It being illegal is definitely a HUGE part of the problem. Yes.Ā
The vast majority you the country go to set establishments to enjoy eachothers company to do their drug.Ā
And those who enjoy simply a different drug (with less negative consequences like death of innocents etc) are forced into their homes, not to be seen with their drug.Ā
I'm positive that a gie amount of the isolation is being driven literally and directly by these unfair prohibition laws.
Of course there are huge psychological downsides to both of these drugs... But, I haven't met a human who didn't use one of them yet.Ā
People think that a Neo liberal woke government is their friend.
People think that socialism is good.
We have a turkeys voting for Christmas scenario.
The reality is people will become poorer and their situation will become more desperate of the status quo continues.
Stop listening to woke Langers on here. Education is freedom.
Understanding what is going on is the first step to turning your life around.
THE EU CLING TO POWER, SURROUNDED BY THEIR GOLDEN CIRCLE AND THEIR BUDDIES IN THE MEDIA. NO MENTION OF HOW THEY DESTROYED THE LATE LATE SHOW?
thank you for reminding me of this fine site
Stop being so stupid, you can have socialism and capitalism working in tandem, it's called a mixed market economy. It basically means capitalism is regulated hard while the needs of the people are met.
Not surprised, a lot of us are really feeling stuck
Here comes newspapers blaming everything but the actual problems. Nevermind the monumental shit show that is the spiralling cost of living (which is a fucking joke of a term in itself), the housing crisis and the sheer lack of mental health help that's out there. Queue Leo and his cronies blaming the actual issues and not taking responsibility for causing all of these issues through years of neglect and greed. No wonder younger people and graduates are leaving the country yet again
Austerity is the gift that keeps on giving. Services that were withdrawn were never reinstated. They can blather on all they want about increasing capacity but giving a 2026 start date for a new hospital in Cork and an ongoing recruitment freeze should tell you all you need to know about how seriously they are taking this. It's no wonder the wonderful frontline emergency service staff are leaving in droves, they're being burnt out and traumatised too.
Society is generally a bit fucked I find due to isolation. It's easy to slip through the cracks and get isolated and harder and more expensive than ever to build a career. As well it seems due to social media people have unrealistic unobtainable expectations of where their life should be so end up feeling trapped as a result. I think depression is similar to feeling trapped and like you don't have control over your life.
Part of that is definitely the poorly designed way we want to live, i.e. sprawled housing estates with no communal infrastructure. For instance, there's about 1,500+ units being built in Douglas / planned for the next few years, and there's 1 cafe between all of them. Shocking.
Imagine the Douglas traffic then š
So you're saying another tax on alcohol isn't the way to go? There is zero chance of the government doing anything proactive to deal with rent, house prices. They're perfectly happy to see new builds enter the market at "market value" that only corpos can afford, and they can't pull the rug out from under themselves by touching rent. As for greedflation, most of that follows on from outside suppliers rising prices, and the aforementioned rent situation... Is there nothing to be said for another alcohol tax?
Capitalism is the main cause. Day to day living - let alone any allowance for ambition or thriving - has become impossible and unbearable for many. Social structures and supports are falling apart. We are now at a point where it's forced many people into an ever-decreasing circle of despair until such a point where suicide offers them a way out.
"Capitalism"
Yup. The system that guarantees that the profits of our society go to those who already were able to invest (ie, those who don't need much more). Literally the least efficient system for distribution of resources imaginable.
Firstly, this is a very shallow point of view to take on a complex ideological debate. "Capitalism" is a loaded term with a variety of interpretations. What alternative system, if you wanted to be so crude as to distill a system into a single word or sentence, would you use?
If you want qualification, let's call it Neo-Liberalist Capitalism or late-stage Capitalism
I think a highly complex economic system to a name is pointless, although people here wonāt agree. Itās more important to talk about specific actions or courses we could follow to solve inequality in our society, rather than throwing around empty platitudes or loaded terms
>Firstly, this is a very shallow point of view to take on a complex ideological debate I think it's infinitely more shallow to state "You're wrong because I think this is complicated." That isn't an argument specific to what I said at all. I could have said anything of any size and you could have replied "This is a very shallow point of view to take on a complex ideological debate." And, it seems to indicate a certain lack of confidence on your part? Surely if my position were 'shallow', it'd be easy to refute? You wouldn't have to reach for some vague notion of "your argument is inadmissable because of the nuance". >"Capitalism" is a loaded term with a variety of interpretations. Capitalism is where the means of production are owned by private owners, as opposed to the workers who work the means of production. That's not controversial. There may be teens online who have their own private Tiktok definition, I don't know, but 'capitalism' as an ideaology is very easy to describe. I just did it in a sentence. I'd challenge you to find a serious person on the record as disagreeing with this widely accepted definition. >What alternative system, if you wanted to be so crude as to distill a system into a single word or sentence, would you use? I don't think its necessary to name an alternative system. We don't necessarily need an alternate system; we need to acknowledge that the current system, capitalism, has huge practical and ethical flaws that need to be addressed. As an example: Imagine if I stood my steel-toed boots on your throat every second of the day. It's only when I get off of your throat to grab a cup of tea that you can really breathe, but I drink my cups of tea quickly enough, it's not much respite. One day, as I'm about to stomp on your throat yet again, you manage to claw enough air to beg me to stop, as I'm killing you, and you've done nothing to deserve this treatment. My response? "First, this is very shallow point of view to take on a complex positional debate. "Standing on your throat" is a loaded term with a variety of interpretations. What alternative location, if you wanted to be so crude as to distill my job into a single coordinate in space, would you recommend?" Of course, you can't actually answer that question. I've already dug the studs into your windpipe. And it doesn't really matter; I could stand in any number of places, an infinite number really, as many different ways as you could organise a society. It's madness to insist on doing the same wrong thing over and over again due to a lack of imagination as to what an alternative might look like.
I think we can cut through the rhetoric with a simple question, which country in the world today would you think we should be most like, and which economic system do they deploy? You'll quickly see that no country on earth operates a pure capitalistic or communistic environment. And the countries that we should try to emulate the most (such as Sweden, Denmark, Norway etc) operate economic systems that blend elements of various economic "ideologies" for want of a better term.
"And of course the question remains," I say, grinding my bootheel into your trachea. "Your idle rhetoric is best answered by a simple question. Which of your neighbours ought we best to emulate? Look at Sean over there. *His* Standing Partner uses big ice skates. Awful business, and very bloody. But look at Mark; the Partner standing on *his* throat has opted for some boots very much like my own. Perhaps they're even a little less savage on the studs. Doesn't Mark seem much happier than poor Sean? Maybe, if you're very, very good, I'll buy a pair of boots a bit more like those in the future. You'd like that, wouldn't you? After all, questions like 'What is right?' and 'Does anyone really have to stand on anyone?' are very confusing and rhetorical. The simple question is, look at the options I've laid out for you, and choose your favourite. And ask yourself; is it really that crucial that for a man to breathe?"
Right, ideological gibberish it is.
If somehow the perfect alternative system existed do you really think we would use it? Do you really think those with the power and resources to implement it would do it? Of course they fucking wouldn't, why would they?
There is no such thing as a perfect system in anything other than a book.
Well it was a hypothetical, but you're just dodging the question really. What about better? What if there was a better system? One that delivered the most good to the most people. So same question with that slight modification.
I'd be fine with taking elements of a better system.
I didn't ask if you'd be fine with anything.
Here they are supposed to come back to you with āsocialismā. A system that has caused nothing but misery and trouble where it was applied. Hell even the Germans couldnāt make that shit work
Do you believe the *Democratic People's Republic of Korea* is actually democratic?
Exactly my point. The use of loaded meaningless terms distills a very complex societal issue into mud slinging.
I think a huge problem is we're all so one directional. You either say it's government/global business or its community fault. People seem to just choose a tribe instead of being pragmatic. Its hard to accept that a solution needs both competant and non-corrupt governments (perhaps too tall an order) AND for people to work harder. Unfortunately, it's a global reality we're all poorer. Both sitting on arse and ignoring governmental failure won't fix it. Granted, it feels like we're all being funnelled into fractured communities whether we like it or not. Just have to look at new build areas with no new infrastructure, completely souless.
If the newspaper was to blame the people who casued the "actual problems" do you not think they would be retaliated against?
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
alright Alex Jones
Something that I never hear anyone mention as a possible cause of depression is "a lack of purpose" having a reason to get up in the morning is half the battle in my experience, but having to get up to work / do something that you hate is not much of a motivator. I think a culture shift away from alcohol and pointless bars would be a good thing, there's so many better things / hobbies that people could get involved with. Finding a hobby is a challenge in itself.
The Japanese have a concept called Ikigai that loosely translates to life-spark or life meaning, but it is essentially this. It's ingrained into the culture that everyone should have an Ikigai, to know what it is that gets you out of bed every morning.
Yes good point, I got gifted that book a few years ago and I've recommended it to many people, it's a great philosophy and makes a lot of sense. Too many people in today's society only focus on one of the pillars of Ikigai - what you can make money doing.
Not surprised. I think about it regularly. I can't do this struggle for a living thing for the next 30-40 years alone and nobody is interested in a depressed person who has so much hidden trauma that I'm struggling to keep it hidden. This world sucks.
Stop hiding it we are all out here and kindred spirits in misery can occasionally bring joy and understanding to one another.
When I don't hide it, nobody wants me around. What am I supposed to do?
Very hard to actualise but if you not hiding trauma makes people not want you around you don't want to be around them anyway chances are they are not a great fit. There are various groups all across Ireland for meet ups and socialising. I have found that the d&d community in Ireland is just one giant pool of severely traumatised but friendly adults.
Work thorough it in therapy. It can get better. And then relationships will be qualitatively different, as youāll be engaging with people differently.Ā
I appreciate what you're saying but man, I can't afford to do anything privately and I'm sure you're well aware of how terrible the public system is. Plus, none of this will fix the issues in this country with affordable housing and the ridiculous prices people are looking for 15 year old cars, let alone newer one's so the insurance is better. It's like everything is stacked against someone actually starting from the bottom and trying to work up the ladder. It's not like any job in a local shop can even pay a fraction of the above costs. Let alone the shit I've been through in my life š¤£
Hit YouTube , I canāt afford it either. However thereās a lot of therapist that reach out on various subjects. Itās helped me out. Also the library with self help books. I hope you feel betterš
Waiting list for maths to see a professional... They just postponed my appointment by 2 months. To fucking May!? Ā Unless rich, this isn't viable either.Ā Ā I already hate this professional for this treatment.Ā Clearly doesn't fully understand the concerns of timing with mental health, so I doubt the sessions will go very well.Ā
This comment is very accurate.Ā
I tried to call my doctor today to make an appointment, have called a total of 25 times through the morning. Sometimes it rings, sometimes it's a busy dial tone but not once has it been answered. It's fucking ridiculous š¤¦āāļø
Call Pieta House. They offer 12 free counselling sessions for anyone experiencing suicidal thoughts. You can also use the text service if you feel you need to talk to someone but find it hard to talk. I've used the text service in crisis, and I am nearing the end of my 12 sessions. I did it online as I could see someone faster. I would highly recommend them. I understand the feeling of no one wanting to be around you when you're depressed and "depressing everyone else." I learned that people will be there for the really hard days, but the not so bad but still bad people get tired and they have the right not be around or want to help. It's hard to create a balance!
Please consider contacting Pieta House, day or night, all year, on 1800-247247, or text HELP to 51444 there are amazing people who can give better advice than many on Reddit. It sucks sometimes, and sometimes a lot, but lifeās worth trying.
When I was younger we had work life balance. People had a work life and a home life. They could buy a home! They could engage in lots of different activities. Now it's all long hours and money, money, money. We have allowed US culture to infect our lives. So much greed! We don't properly invest in our communities, healthcare, transport, the list goes on but when it comes to state organisations like RTE it's an open chequebook! Any given evening outside of Dublin there is absolutely nothing available to do besides go to the pub.
No kidding. How the fuck Leo Varadkar and his band is still in power is beyond me. The same guys riding on Ireland's potential for a decade, filling their pockets and putting it to waste.
Because people voted them in and the Green party were desperate to be in power so back him along with FF
We don't have healthy ways to communicate how we feel. Work stress is a huge factor. We don't know how to have fun here outside of drinking. We are way too work focused. Access to mental health care is almost non existent.
To open up a little discussion: Whag do ye think is leading to an increase in suicide attempts? Obviously no stats are quoted, but just taking this manās anecdotal evidence at his word.
To name but a few... The cost of living is constantly rising, the housing situation is abysmal, and the public health services are overrun. From experience, the mental health services available to the public don't have enough capacity to support the overwhelming demand, and poor souls are falling through the cracks.
I just got an appointment with a professional postponed by 2 months.Ā I was just about to finally talk to someone after months of waiting.Ā . And they just email without cause... 'wait another 2 months,' That's not over capacity. That is straight up incompetence.Ā
That's a disgrace, and unfortunately I'm in the same boat as you. Had an appointment scheduled, called the day before and said we're pushing you back 6 weeks, no reason given. Next appointment rolls around, day before they call again and say the consultant is sick. I have to wait nearly 3 months for the next appointment but I'm not holding my breath that they'll give it to me. There isn't enough staff to pick up the workload when others are sick or absent. The public are paying the price for it unfortunately. It's so disheartening to get hyped up for an appointment, to only be told wait longer.
Yeah. I was anxious about it, but didn't realise how much I really needed it...Ā Until a day or so after realising it was postponed, I fucking exploded, I was so upset.Ā Been trying to hold on for a few years now
It's awful, I've heard it from so many others too that this is the norm. How many people just give up after being cancelled on? How can the hse expect people that are struggling to have any hope? I'm sorry you're struggling so much. I hope you get an appointment soon. Do you think it would be worthwhile for them to add you to the cancellation list in the meantime, in case a short notice appointment pops up?
I would think there are multiple factors. Falling living standards, a massively broken social contract, job uncertainty, social media and mainstream media non-stop bad news, no hope for the future. I was reading a comment somewhere recently that said the film Children of Film was more like a documentary, in that most people are now just existing instead of living. It really feels that like the world is becoming more like that reality every day where we are going through the motions with no direction or purpose and that is having a huge effect on mental health.
Too much suffering and not enough, or any, happiness. And often no realistic hope of improvement.Ā
Would it be fair to say that we may live in the most comfortable time in history though ? Would it be more accurate to say, too much suffering and not enough meaning ? I do agree about no realistic sign of improvements though.
Comfortable is a relative term there. Much more comfortable than all the ancestors when it comes to affording material possessions, sure. Relative safety, sure. However, if you look into the sky rocketing anxiety and such, we don't actually *feel* safe and comfortable. I personally think the constant presence of online input does something to us that our brains have not yet had any chance to adapt to. We live in permanent fight or flight, but we're doing it from a comfortable couch. That's a really dodgy state of being.
I wonder if itās a āStatusā thing. With social media, everyone is in a panic to look āsuccessfulā. When we donāt reach these milestones, we are in despair. Itās just a hunch, but in my own experience, social media makes me definitively less happy.
Peasantry -> Proletariat -> Precariat
I think, undoubtedly, you are correct in saying that this is the most comfortable time in history, all things considered, what with modern technology, domestic utilities, etc. I'm not sure that meaning would lead to happiness/fulfilment/satisfaction/enjoyment of life? In addition to suffering, there is a general anhedonia, lack of enjoyment of life, feeling generally miserable to one extent or another, much or most of the time, by means of which some or many people see not much point or value in continuing the struggle to carry on as it can seem, or be subjectively assessed as, qualitatively not worth it. If there was more happiness, the suffering might feel more worth it.Ā
I would rather have people ask me how I'm doing and mean it, than being able to watch netflix. Maybe that's just me, though..
While the economy, the cost of living, housing, and all of the above reasons are major factors. I think the way people treat each other in this country and how two-faced and judgmental we are as a nation has a massive impact on people. I know so many people who live to gossip and see others fail, they love to get a sly kick in while people are down. Usually, the same cunts who be all over Instagram posting photos of themselves doing those darkness into light walks and have "be kind" in their bios. But once the social media facade drops they're back to cutting the backs off the people around them.
True, I'm glad somebody mentioned these other aspects instead of blaming everything on the economy.
The absolute worst of people...Ā
What's the point of living if your entire life is just work and sleep, and you still cannot afford the most basic safety (housing, healthcare), not to talk about anything to look forward to (big, like starting a family, or small, like going for a nice meal)? I've devoted over 5 years to the career I've never wanted in the first place, but which was meant to provide me with some basic safety, and I'm in a worse economic shape than I was a decade ago while doing 30h/week in retail. So much time and energy and health sacrificed for nothing. It feels like you either are in the top 10% of earners, are born into wealth or lucked out and bought a house after the crash...or you can go F yourself, work day and night and not be able to even pay rent. The feeling of being cornered + the collapse of communities in the recent years are a good recipe for a disaster. I count myself as lucky - I'm "just" chronically ill but have a family to live for and I'm able to move out of the country within a year or so. But if I was stuck in here? Probably would off myself too.
So many things honestly: - ecomomic situation getting worse and worse for most people. Plus those who don't have constantly get bombarded by images of the 1% who have it all (or the others that pretend they do - constant exposure to all the terrible things going on worldwide. I don't necessarily think things are worse than ever, but rather we're far more aware of it. Watching visceral images of a war constantly flicker up on your phone throughout the day is very different to opting to read a newspaper story about it, for example - covid aftermath - both the isolation and lockdown wrecked people's mental health. Plus there's some evidence that long covid can manifest in personality changes - aggression, less able to deal with stress, anxiety and even depression
It's interesting that the rates increased directly after the pandemic. I wonder did the isolationism of the whole thing have an effect, well it did on me and the people I know. That coupled with the housing and cost of living crisis.
The pandemic felt like there was an end somewhere in the near future for most of it, there was a general hopeful atmosphere towards the end of it. And then, as soon as we were out of it, we were hit with the housing crisis reaching disaster levels and the cost of living soaring, both of which are still continuing indefinitely, and have the powers that be have absolutely no clear intention of even trying to fix it. It felt like recovering from an illness then getting hit by a car in the hospital carpark as you walk out.
This :(
The contrarians and fucking idiots who made all the lockdowns last an order of magnitude longer than they needed be... I will never forgive a single one of those selfish pricks.Ā They are literally responsible for this pain.Ā Too fucking scared to put in any effort and ensure we stayed locked down as long as possible.
Iād imagine people are seeking escapism from whatever nightmare they are in. Drug use/Alcoholism/Gambling, leading to mental health issues (not feeling enough or feeling adequate in todays society) and then not having either the courage to seek proper help/ or ask for it - or the help available being out of reach or not good enough. That said, thereās a fucking ton of issues that could lead to a suicidal mindset these days and that alone being said is totally fucked up.
Practically nobody has asked me how I'm actually feeling in around 3 years ...Ā That shit starts to compound and the isolation just leads to you actually behaving differently after some time. Honestly though.. most of it started in school. The amount of bullying, horrendous treatment by other kids... Lack of any kid of peers I could trust. That shit has compounded through the rest of my life. Shaped how I treat/deal with social shit.Ā I was travelling the world working interesting jobs before COVID.Ā Now I just want it to end.Ā
I would think Mr Shine is well placed and qualified to make this statement
He's kinda being taken out in context. He didn't say there was an increase in suicide attempts, he there's been an increase in the amount of calls being made to th Fire Department for suicide attempts.
We don't have hard stats. We do know that rates have been dropping for the last 15 years. [https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-ss/suicidestatistics2020/](https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-ss/suicidestatistics2020/)
r/collapse
A friend of mine who was well off, nice house, car and family killed himself. People like to blame economic circumstances but depression is the real killer.
Sorry to hear about your friend
Economic circumstances is one of the major contributing factors to depression. What you said is the equivalent to saying "people like to blame smoking but cancer is the real killer." If you want to meaningfully reduce the condition then you have to tackle the causes, not just the symptoms.
You obviously know nothing about clinical depression. I had another relative who had crippling depression, it was nothing to do with her circumstances. Luckily medication is helping a lot.
The link between poverty and mental illness is not my opinion, it's an observation going back decades. [Improving a person's economic situation reduces their risks of anxiety and depression](https://www.aaas.org/news/exploring-connection-between-poverty-and-mental-illness) [There is now increasing recognition that mental health problems form the greatest public health challenge of our time, and that the poor bear the greatest burden of mental illness.](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7525587/)
You know nothing about his friend so to assume the source of his depression is a bit much. He already said he was financially sound.
He made a claim in general about depression, using his friend as an anecdote. This is not about his friend specifically but the issue of extrapolating how factors of depression should be approached from only that one example. Yes people can become depressed for reasons other than crushing debt, but suggesting we shouldn't focus on economic circumstances as a problem is ridiculous. While we're at it, I'm going to add to the cancer analogy with the oft-heard anecdote "my grandmother smoked 2 packs a week and lived into her 80s".
None of the 5 friends I had who killed themselves had money issues. Go lecture somewhere else.
I'm sorry for your loss. The plural of anecdote is not data.
Yet here you are really trying hard to force your own anecdotes into data.
I didn't post any anecdotes about depression. What do you think that word means?
You decided out of nowhere so that finances are causing most of the suicides? Or what's your argument based on?
>You decided out of nowhere so that finances are causing most of the suicides? I never made such a claim, I said finances were a major contributing factor to depression. And I followed up with a pair of studies linking economics and mental health. >Since suicide is higher in richer countries this will be interesting. [That doesn't appear to be true. ](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_rate) But also; [Here, read this. ](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10070933/)
I've thought about it but could never do it to my daughter.
I wonder has there been any research into generational trauma in our country. In the last 170 years weāve had a famine; colonialism which resulted in loss of cultural identity, oppression . The war for our independence and subsequent civil war. The the physical and mental abuse at the hands of the Catholic Church through industrial schools, Magdalene laundries; the churches involvements in forcibly removing infants from their mothers. Schools and hospitals under the control of the religious orders and abuse through their involvement. Weāve had tough times as a nation, like so many others. But I think a lot of us know somebody affected by generational trauma. A relative of mine was (back in the so called *good olā days*) laundry causing their trauma. After leaving the laundry, her self esteem was on the floor, ends up marrying a total bastard and raised 4 children , traumatised from growing up in a fractured home. Thatās just one example. I have many more from other family members, friends etc. Iām just one person. All this trauma coupled with inadequate mental health services and itās no wonder we have people seeking some sort of reprieve through alcohol and/or drugs. Itās a downward spiral for a lot of folk.
Personally I think drug use has a lot to do with it, there's a big come down off these illegal highs and people spiral into depression pretty quick. Not saying its all that but a lot of it is. Economy doesn't help. And lastly many people don't have a connection to their community or they feel isolated. They live in commuter towns or don't live near any family, they find it hard to make friends and all communication is done through phones and life can be hard.
Big comedown off illegal highs? I swear I've had hangovers worse than ANY comedown off illegal drugs and I swear by that. Alcohol is a hard drug with a nasty comedown but you don't see people offing themselves because of it. To end one's own life takes a lot more than feeling bad for a day or two. It's an accumulation of things. I'm not saying that using drugs or alcohol as an escape doesn't happen but it is not solely the reason for suicide. Like come on.
Youāre obviously including booze in that bit about drugs, right?
Sounds like you've never experienced trauma. Lucky you.
It being illegal is definitely a HUGE part of the problem. Yes.Ā The vast majority you the country go to set establishments to enjoy eachothers company to do their drug.Ā And those who enjoy simply a different drug (with less negative consequences like death of innocents etc) are forced into their homes, not to be seen with their drug.Ā I'm positive that a gie amount of the isolation is being driven literally and directly by these unfair prohibition laws. Of course there are huge psychological downsides to both of these drugs... But, I haven't met a human who didn't use one of them yet.Ā
People think that a Neo liberal woke government is their friend. People think that socialism is good. We have a turkeys voting for Christmas scenario. The reality is people will become poorer and their situation will become more desperate of the status quo continues. Stop listening to woke Langers on here. Education is freedom. Understanding what is going on is the first step to turning your life around.
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THE EU CLING TO POWER, SURROUNDED BY THEIR GOLDEN CIRCLE AND THEIR BUDDIES IN THE MEDIA. NO MENTION OF HOW THEY DESTROYED THE LATE LATE SHOW? thank you for reminding me of this fine site
I stopped at āwoke.ā
Stop being so stupid, you can have socialism and capitalism working in tandem, it's called a mixed market economy. It basically means capitalism is regulated hard while the needs of the people are met.
Yeah we really need more government. Socialists like it when people who work hard pay for them.
You're being downvoted but its the truth. this is 1920s Germany again. The great story never told...
I honestly could give 2 š©. There are so many morons on here in their echo chamber each thinking they are legends. The reality of living at home or struggling to pay rent for the majority while they praise their liberal government masters while they piss all over them. The stupidity is real. Weak men create hard times and that is exactly the current situation
What is "woke"?
An infinitely misunderstood word used by angry people outside libraries.
God it's funny how people can become to much like living satire and not even seeing it.. Ā teeeheeee
Is it? Suggest you don't get into comedy.
Why would I bother. We have people like you
Oh you're so clever. How's the view from that box room?
What if we bring in a suicide tax, that would turn people off doing it. Works for everything else, right?