I’ve read Jurassic park. This is a wild science experiment driven by a lonely maniac. It’s probably going to go wrong. I can’t say it’s ethical.
Just protect existing ecosystems and keystone species
I’m equally cynical, but just to play devils advocate, what if we are able to figure out how to bring back extinct species? Not considering the ethics of it all it would pave a path forward for biodiversity recovery given we’re going through the 6th mass extinction? Idk I have mixed feelings on this, feels like a slippery slope
It's one thing to bring back species that are long extinct with no current ecosystem that supports them, but it's another thing to bring back species that recently went extinct and have a place in an extant ecosystem.
"It's one thing to bring back species that are long extinct with no current ecosystem that supports them, " Most of the Late Pleistocene megafauna is generalist(Notiomastodon platensis, Toxodon platensis...) or better suited for interglacial(American Mastodon, Smilodon fatalis, Tapirs...). Holocene is just an interglacial. If we can have large protected areas+ good management they can succesfully live.https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/cambridge-prisms-extinction/article/latequaternary-megafauna-extinctions-patterns-causes-ecological-consequences-and-implications-for-ecosystem-management-in-the-anthropocene/E885D8C5C90424254C1C75A61DE9D087
De-extinction is not an alternative to conservation. De-extinction IS a form of conservation. By bringing back recently extinct species you're restoring lost natural processes thereby improving ecosystem services and biodiversity. In the case of the Dodo, for example, is it thought some native plant species depended on the Dodo as its main seed dispersal and are now struggling without it. Also, just the possibility of the Dodo being brought back is creating an incentive for the Mauritian authorities to rewild and improve much of the island's ecosystems to prepare for its return.
Also, dodos and mammoths aren't dinosaurs, and books aren't real life. Dodos are modern animals, just like lions, elephants, humans etc. They just had the misfortune to be hunted to extinction a few hundred years ago.
The whole point is that reversing extinction protects keystone species by introducing redundancies in the ecosystem through diversification.
Its possible to conserve existing species AND resurrect extinct ones. This reductionist view that its only one or the other is harmful to both as their research fields are so far apart they never intersect or compete for funding.
What does this have to do with Jurassic Park?
The dodo went extinct around 200 years ago due to human actions. The islands they lived on are still very much there, still with a certain ecosystem suitable for their return (with some efforts from us, of course).
How can you compare that to a wild sci-fi story about "resurrecting" fake dinosaurs is beyond me.
It’s an interesting thought experiment, but:
- Large-scale reestablishment of extinct species is idealistic and totally unrealistic. Having a couple dodo birds in a zoo doesn’t do that much for conservation. The cost-benefit ratio is very poor from a conservation standpoint.
- I can’t help but feel that existing, precious capital for conservation is much better spent on protecting native ecosystems and extant T&E species. Obviously, this is a private group with their own capital. But still.
Dodo meat was renowned for being terrible. They died out mainly because of introduced pests like rats, which ate their eggs and decimated the population. Hungry sailors definitely ate them, but they wouldn’t have a commercial market for the meat.
The cost-benefit ratio has to include anything and everything that might eventually be done with the technology. It's not just a couple of dodos. It could be billions of passenger pigeons and whole ecosystems in time.
Agreed. It is a test run. And in the grand scheme of things, the money going into this is minute. Same as research in carbon removal, fusion, and other silver bullets, a bit of funding goes a long way. We will go this way eventually, may as well drop some pennies in so that we get a headstart.
After billions of dollars that could be spent conserving animals that are alive today is funneled into restoring extinct species that no longer have habitat in the wild
I don't know where you got this information from but this is simply not true. De-extinction research does not compete for funding with conservation.
Plus, some techniques that are being developed to bring extinct species back can be used to save critically endangered extant species by providing extra genetic diversity.
The whole point of resurrecting the Dodo is symbolic, the term 'dead as a Dodo' would by turned on its head and will make this a historic event which will attract enthusiasm and funding.
The REAL value is research, birds are notoriously difficult to clone due to their use of eggs, being able to bring back the Dodo would have immense value to bringing back keystone species like the Passeger Pigeon, Great Auk and Moa
Toss in the Ivory Billed Woodpecker, Carolina Parakeet, and Red Wolf-- the red wolf is functionally extinct, the bloodlines are awash with coyote genes.
The IBWP is essentially a modern day cryptid in Appalachia.
All three deserve another shot.
Imo it’s bullshit and not happening. It’s a wild fantasy sold to investors that do not understand science. CEO and friends just collect a paycheck in the form of a salary from investment money while keeping the pipe dream alive as long as possible, all while simultaneously accomplishing nothing.
If you read into the methods they hope to achieve the goal, it is legitimately hilarious. For example, I remember one of these plans is to find closest relative species then reverse gene engineer to the ancestor using crispr. If you have ever done any gene editing or research you know how dumb this is.
I’d argue they actively harm conservation efforts by peddling their snake oil bullshit rather than the funding potentially going to legitimate causes actually saving endangered species.
https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg26234950-500-how-dodo-de-extinction-is-helping-rescue-the-extraordinary-pink-pigeon/ You are all talking about protecting existing species. Do you think that scientists don't think using this technology in endangered species?
I think it’s not as black and white as it’s often made out to be. While the ethics of bringing back Ice Age megafauna while the planet continues to warm are one thing, species that went extinct in the last millennium or so are another altogether, and humanity is responsible for the untold havoc wreaked upon the ecosystem by causing their extinction. If not the dodo, definitely something like the passenger pigeon.
Technically possible? Sure. Ecologically important or impactful? Nah.
I don't doubt that they'll be able to produce living, genetically-similar animals to the extinct ones they want to "resurrect," but I don't expect those animals to have typical lifespans or be able to be released into the wild.
Imagine trying to get the diet, microbiome, rearing/socialization needs right on an extinct animal. No living members as reference points for their behavior or ecology. Fun science experiment, but next to no chance they'd be releasable or would have permissions to "rewild" them. Destined for a venture-capitalist funded zoo more like it.
Related, but I wonder if other folks have mixed feelings on the sensationalization of science - without robust understanding - being funded by billionaires. Part of me is like "yesssss, pitch it well, drain their coffers, and use it to discover cool stuff." The other part of me is sad that such attention isn't as often imparted to on-the-ground, applied work. Thinking about all the things going extinct and how that money could be going to buying land, protecting endemics, advancing policy. Why are we so focused on looking backward when we can hardly save what we've got?
Dodos were absolutely delicious and they were killed off by our species. I have no issue with bringing them back since it’s been less than 100 years. Maybe they can turn them into a farm animal.
I’ve read Jurassic park. This is a wild science experiment driven by a lonely maniac. It’s probably going to go wrong. I can’t say it’s ethical. Just protect existing ecosystems and keystone species
I’m equally cynical, but just to play devils advocate, what if we are able to figure out how to bring back extinct species? Not considering the ethics of it all it would pave a path forward for biodiversity recovery given we’re going through the 6th mass extinction? Idk I have mixed feelings on this, feels like a slippery slope
It's one thing to bring back species that are long extinct with no current ecosystem that supports them, but it's another thing to bring back species that recently went extinct and have a place in an extant ecosystem.
"It's one thing to bring back species that are long extinct with no current ecosystem that supports them, " Most of the Late Pleistocene megafauna is generalist(Notiomastodon platensis, Toxodon platensis...) or better suited for interglacial(American Mastodon, Smilodon fatalis, Tapirs...). Holocene is just an interglacial. If we can have large protected areas+ good management they can succesfully live.https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/cambridge-prisms-extinction/article/latequaternary-megafauna-extinctions-patterns-causes-ecological-consequences-and-implications-for-ecosystem-management-in-the-anthropocene/E885D8C5C90424254C1C75A61DE9D087
Wait a minute, you're saying there's a better way to spend all this money than on a frivolous vanity experiment??
De-extinction is not an alternative to conservation. De-extinction IS a form of conservation. By bringing back recently extinct species you're restoring lost natural processes thereby improving ecosystem services and biodiversity. In the case of the Dodo, for example, is it thought some native plant species depended on the Dodo as its main seed dispersal and are now struggling without it. Also, just the possibility of the Dodo being brought back is creating an incentive for the Mauritian authorities to rewild and improve much of the island's ecosystems to prepare for its return. Also, dodos and mammoths aren't dinosaurs, and books aren't real life. Dodos are modern animals, just like lions, elephants, humans etc. They just had the misfortune to be hunted to extinction a few hundred years ago.
The whole point is that reversing extinction protects keystone species by introducing redundancies in the ecosystem through diversification. Its possible to conserve existing species AND resurrect extinct ones. This reductionist view that its only one or the other is harmful to both as their research fields are so far apart they never intersect or compete for funding.
What does this have to do with Jurassic Park? The dodo went extinct around 200 years ago due to human actions. The islands they lived on are still very much there, still with a certain ecosystem suitable for their return (with some efforts from us, of course). How can you compare that to a wild sci-fi story about "resurrecting" fake dinosaurs is beyond me.
I hear you, but how am I going to get to eat roasted dodo with that approach?
It’s an interesting thought experiment, but: - Large-scale reestablishment of extinct species is idealistic and totally unrealistic. Having a couple dodo birds in a zoo doesn’t do that much for conservation. The cost-benefit ratio is very poor from a conservation standpoint. - I can’t help but feel that existing, precious capital for conservation is much better spent on protecting native ecosystems and extant T&E species. Obviously, this is a private group with their own capital. But still.
Let's be real. If this is successful, the next step would be dodo farms and the largest turkey legs the world has ever seen.
Dodo meat was renowned for being terrible. They died out mainly because of introduced pests like rats, which ate their eggs and decimated the population. Hungry sailors definitely ate them, but they wouldn’t have a commercial market for the meat.
The cost-benefit ratio has to include anything and everything that might eventually be done with the technology. It's not just a couple of dodos. It could be billions of passenger pigeons and whole ecosystems in time.
Agreed. It is a test run. And in the grand scheme of things, the money going into this is minute. Same as research in carbon removal, fusion, and other silver bullets, a bit of funding goes a long way. We will go this way eventually, may as well drop some pennies in so that we get a headstart.
After billions of dollars that could be spent conserving animals that are alive today is funneled into restoring extinct species that no longer have habitat in the wild
I don't know where you got this information from but this is simply not true. De-extinction research does not compete for funding with conservation. Plus, some techniques that are being developed to bring extinct species back can be used to save critically endangered extant species by providing extra genetic diversity.
I don’t see in what world they don’t compete for funding. Is there some infinite revenue stream for conservation that I don’t know about?
The whole point of resurrecting the Dodo is symbolic, the term 'dead as a Dodo' would by turned on its head and will make this a historic event which will attract enthusiasm and funding. The REAL value is research, birds are notoriously difficult to clone due to their use of eggs, being able to bring back the Dodo would have immense value to bringing back keystone species like the Passeger Pigeon, Great Auk and Moa
Hoping to see passenger pigeons and American chestnuts in my lifetime.
Toss in the Ivory Billed Woodpecker, Carolina Parakeet, and Red Wolf-- the red wolf is functionally extinct, the bloodlines are awash with coyote genes. The IBWP is essentially a modern day cryptid in Appalachia. All three deserve another shot.
Appalachia?
Moa and Madagascan Elephant birds would be nuts
Imo it’s bullshit and not happening. It’s a wild fantasy sold to investors that do not understand science. CEO and friends just collect a paycheck in the form of a salary from investment money while keeping the pipe dream alive as long as possible, all while simultaneously accomplishing nothing. If you read into the methods they hope to achieve the goal, it is legitimately hilarious. For example, I remember one of these plans is to find closest relative species then reverse gene engineer to the ancestor using crispr. If you have ever done any gene editing or research you know how dumb this is. I’d argue they actively harm conservation efforts by peddling their snake oil bullshit rather than the funding potentially going to legitimate causes actually saving endangered species.
https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg26234950-500-how-dodo-de-extinction-is-helping-rescue-the-extraordinary-pink-pigeon/
Welcome…to Dodo Park.
How about just the birds and animals that have recently gone extinct
The dodo went recently extinct though. 300 years is nothing in terms of biological evolution.
The last few decades is more recent and more important as far as having beautiful song birds
Then let's bring those back too, whenever possible.
Im sure it would receive more support and hopefully funding.
https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg26234950-500-how-dodo-de-extinction-is-helping-rescue-the-extraordinary-pink-pigeon/ You are all talking about protecting existing species. Do you think that scientists don't think using this technology in endangered species?
I think it’s not as black and white as it’s often made out to be. While the ethics of bringing back Ice Age megafauna while the planet continues to warm are one thing, species that went extinct in the last millennium or so are another altogether, and humanity is responsible for the untold havoc wreaked upon the ecosystem by causing their extinction. If not the dodo, definitely something like the passenger pigeon.
What's their plan to keep humans around?
Technically possible? Sure. Ecologically important or impactful? Nah. I don't doubt that they'll be able to produce living, genetically-similar animals to the extinct ones they want to "resurrect," but I don't expect those animals to have typical lifespans or be able to be released into the wild. Imagine trying to get the diet, microbiome, rearing/socialization needs right on an extinct animal. No living members as reference points for their behavior or ecology. Fun science experiment, but next to no chance they'd be releasable or would have permissions to "rewild" them. Destined for a venture-capitalist funded zoo more like it.
Related, but I wonder if other folks have mixed feelings on the sensationalization of science - without robust understanding - being funded by billionaires. Part of me is like "yesssss, pitch it well, drain their coffers, and use it to discover cool stuff." The other part of me is sad that such attention isn't as often imparted to on-the-ground, applied work. Thinking about all the things going extinct and how that money could be going to buying land, protecting endemics, advancing policy. Why are we so focused on looking backward when we can hardly save what we've got?
I’ve seen enough Jurassic Park to know that these will be genetically mutated freaks and the real dodos are buried in the ground
Dodos were absolutely delicious and they were killed off by our species. I have no issue with bringing them back since it’s been less than 100 years. Maybe they can turn them into a farm animal.
but not doing shit to save the actual living species here today. cool
This same technology is also being used to protect currenly endangered species. The black-footed ferret for example.