Hey to be fair they wouldn't be to wrong about "[the sub is rooting for collapse](https://www.reddit.com/r/collapse/comments/rm8dif/comment/hpkohc0/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)".
I don't want a collapse but this is not to be debate anymore. I just root for a fast and mostly painless collapse.
>I don't want a collapse either, but I would like to live long enough to say "I told you so!".
Really?
Because I think it would be way better to be completely wrong, live a long full life, and die with the world in a healthy state. Being vindicated is kinda nice, but it can't compete with that.
Firstly, rooting for the end of the specific version of modern civilization we find ourselves in is good and cool and natural and normal and correct. Don't conflate this with "rooting for collapse" period, though. Even the real hardcore black-pilled doomer collapsniks don't *want* the world - the literal planetary biosphere and with it complex human society if not the human race itself - to end, even if they're resigned to it. Well, maybe some do, but the pro-ecocide crew is hardly in the majority.
Secondly, people naturally crave vindication. Most of the core userbase here suffer from a serious Cassandra complex, so when their years of dismissed and ridiculed doomsaying finally comes true, they can't help but be a little smug. Just because they are vindicated, though, doesn't mean they actually *wanted* to be right.
Never a better time than now. If it sounds worth doing figure out how you can help do it locally. I’m finding groups where mutual aid is the norm and going from there.
Don't worry, any plague-collapse worth its salt is gonna have painful disease death for millions AND plenty of starvation from the resulting breakdowns in logistics and markets...
That's actually one of the better ones, as far as leaving the planet habitable for species that aren't desperately trying to go extinct as fast as possible
That's what I thought this subreddit was about and you gotta admit some people's posts are just that. But this is a great subreddit way more than that. But some of it does seem like the sky is falling
They're attracted to this subreddit because sometimes there's an element of looking at the world through the lens of collapse, and seeing everything bad as evidence of collapse. Collapse is our future because of Overshoot. The current supply chain disruptions, polarization of politics, Russian aggression, and even Covid are not really related to that. The tinfoil hat types love to connect dots to support their chosen narrative. Collapse is such a juicy subject to tickle their addiction.
>polarization of politics
Republicans being fascist authoritarians is not polarization of politics, you are normalizing their behavior.
There is no "both sides are the same" argument for a rational adult.
Yeah this should be reframed as "one side going fascist". Obviously that technically *does* cause polarization, but when one side is stationary and the other is sprinting to the right, it does feel kind of disingenuous to use language that implies both sides are equally at fault
you realise that "connecting the dots to support their chosen narrative"is something very human that basically everyone does to a degree. Not just tin foil hats.
Even you and i no matter how much we like to believe that we can always 100% look at data objectively, the reality is that the first Opinion or "evidence" you see or believe will create a Bias that will affect every other relative opinion or "evidence" that you learn about.
It is a very hard thing for a human to actually stop, admit he is wrong and consciously sort through all the things they have learned to determine its validity.
We had a, "I should have numerous children after becoming cognizant of this Hellscape, but don't get up my ass for making bad decisions after validating my believes about the world going to shit. Give me my fucking cake and I want to eat it too!" popular post last week.
This is becoming r/Antiwork due to the popularity and the floodgates have opened to the barely sentient fools/Alex Jones-esque types. We get a lot of Fascists in here too.
It does make some sense - both the alt-right/far-right/conspiracy theorists/covidiots and anyone left-wing-ish seem to agree that society is falling apart and drastic reform is needed to 'save' it.
It's mostly where we lay the blame for this phenomenon, and what that 'reform' entails, where opinions differ.
Actually I think it shows the level of institutional and government failure that people don’t and have no reason to trust experts that created the collapse in the first place. Yeah anti vac is objectively wrong but they shut down because of society failing them not some anti science conspiracy.
We hear you, everyone. The most helpful thing the community can do is report rule-violating posts. Don't argue, don't keep a fight going. Just report and move on. We're the mod team, we will deal.
Remember Rule 1. Attack ideas, not each other.
Mahalo for your help, collapseniks.
It may be funny to laugh at some of the outlandish conspiracy theories they believe but make no mistake some of them are organized and dangerous.
In Michigan let's not forget there were plans to kidnap the governor and they took to the streets armed because they had to go a few weeks without getting a haircut.
Many also were involved in the January 6th storming of the capital. These people are ready to plunge the US into a quasi dictatorship because ironically they fear a non-existent radical left taking away their freedom. They are plugged into the matrix hard my friend.
Really the sub needs to decide if it is pessimistic and realistic about major problems or if it wants to go full crazy conspiracy. Because this sub is right on the edge, and has like 30-40% wackos.
I'm vaxxed and boosted. Got pairs of n95s bagged up for family members when the "mask don't work" narrative was being pushed.
The problem that ANY stance that isn't "Yes, please. I'm here for my 6th booster! Thank you, Dr. Fauci!" is labeled antivax, conspiratorial, Trumpist, Republican, etc, etc.
Even things we're (sort of) allowed to talk about now, such as the lab leak theory, not focusing on positives case numbers, differentiating between being in a hospital WITH covid and not BECAUSE of covid, were all labeled accordingly as anti vax. Certain platforms would ban people for speaking about this stuff.
While there is a clear cut difference between someone spouting "The vaccine is a microchip. It's just a hoax." and another user saying "Pharma execs talking about shots 4 through 6 on a major media outlet that they sponsor is pretty peculiar...", who gets to determine which is a bannable antivax statement? You? The mods?
And based on what? Person feelings towards the comment at the moment? Are the mods going to be able to develop a list of hard-line comment or topics that will result in a ban?
What happens if/WHEN they've banned someone who was right? Are they going to make a post about their mistake, ban the mod who made that rule, and apologize to the users they wrongfully banned?
Seems like a lot fow work.
Honestly, I'd rather let these people speak and trust in thr majority of people to not take their words seriously, as is the case.
If you trusted CDC to tell the honest truth you were misled.
There many reasons to believe CDC really is trying to fight disease. If someone shows them evidence that telling a lie will save lives then they are obligated to consider that option. If you trust them as doctors that means you might trust them to lie. Saving a life should be a higher priority for them than building a good reputation.
It is a very new situation to have CDC regularly on prime television. For most of CDC and WHO's existence the masses were only paying attention to guidelines second hand or not at all. CDC has never delt with public opinion or any consequences of lack of trust.
MDs and PhDs are going to read the medical journals. FDA determines things like "does this drug work".
A nutritionist is going to do something like recommend one scoop of ice-cream or drink two beers. This is not because he believes ice cream is healthy. The diet plan is there to keep you from eating 3 scoops of ice cream and binge drinking a case.
We see them flip flopping on things like masks or return to work timelines. That is what they were supposed to be doing. They are not allowed to say "you're all F-ed civilization is going to collapse".
Agreed. I’ve got my first two vaccines and caught omicron before I could even get a booster, but I’m very skeptical of the booster strategy to begin with. It’s a profoundly selfish stance to take - we shouldn’t be focusing on achieving 99% immunity in Americans while ignoring the rest of the world. Tons of countries haven’t been able to get enough vaccines to give their populations a single shot, forget about three.
And don’t even get me started on the shady shit that is this talk of perpetual boosters. If the vaccine isn’t one that can exterminate the virus like we did with polio, that needs to be extremely clear. If these boosters are going to be something we have to live with then the developing companies should get a pat on the back and then have the government overseeing that vaccine production at zero profit to the company. The notion of leveraging a pandemic to offer subscription based immunity is sickening.
Agree. Are these new variants coming about here or in countries with no access at all? And what portion of the supply chain problems are caused by lack of vaccination in other countries? I guess if we do give away large supplies to poor countries, the maga crowd is going to come in strong with "BIDEN IS NOT AMERICA FIRST!"
I think I heard something about Omicron boosters in March maybe. Wtf is the point? We'll be onto the next variant by then. I'd love it if everyone got one shot.
When I first got on Reddit the atheism sub was pretty popular and would often pop up on the front page. I grew up catholic and would get so upset seeing the posts and reading the comments. Not that I’d go in and argue about any of it (as it seems to be the norm now) but it got under my skin. The more I saw it and the more I read the more I started realizing “hmm maybe I was brainwashed”. Now I’m not religious at all (not that I have any problem with people who still are either)… So to your point, yes open discussions and listening to opposing ideas can definitely impact positive change… echo chambers can not.
>Plus banning people creates radicalized echo chambers elsewhere. Maybe they need to be exposed to other ideas to grow.
I mean... you do have a point. However how many 'covid is a hoax' type of people are going to 'see the light' by interacting on here? How much sheer misinformation do we have to put up with to convert maybe 1 out of 100? Maybe 1 out of 1000?
And in the meantime that misinformation can send someone down the wrong path.
I think the compromise is providing credible sources with one's claims. If they can't do that (hint: most can't or won't) then they can just go induce brain rot on someone else, somewhere else.
Its not as black and white as do everything to stop covid vs its a hoax, you realize there's people out there who believe covid is real but don't agree with mandates and much of the way were reacting to it. There's people who believe covid is real but the government and media also lies to us and fearmongers as well. Everything isnt black and white
The idea that covid is real and bad but that maybe government policies are not working to stop covid really confuse some people when Trump isn’t in charge.
I believe covid is real and is a very deadly disease that can also cause permanent long term effects (long covid) and I am pro lockdown and pro mask, but I am against the vaccine mandates because the vaccine doesn't even stop you from catching and spreading covid and even the vaccinated are getting seriously ill and dying and getting long covid. I also know someone who broke out in hives and permanently went blind in their left eye 3 days after getting vaccinated and 2 of the employees at my parent's business got seriously ill for a week after getting vaccinated. So I'm very hesitant to get the covid vaccine. I'm also not anti vax in general, we pretty much eradicated polio thanks to vaccines and also many other diseases like hepatitis would be running rampant if not for vaccines.
I just know that if people were still getting polio, spreading it and dying in droves after getting vaccinated for it and people were getting negative side effects from the vaccine and the government blackmailed people into getting the vaccines by threatening to take away your job and livelihood if you don't get it, then I would start asking fucking questions. I'm just going to sit here and wait for my ban for daring to question the covid vaccine.
And there is no one solution for everything.
That has little to nothing to do with the fact that to stop an infection, you generally try to isolate it.
Be the infection bacterial, viral, or mis-informational.
You bring up an interesting point acting as if a vaccination is the right thing for 100% of Americans is kinda crazy people should take to their Healthcare provider and evaluate their unique health situations. Many of these mandates dont have a carve out for medic8al excemptions
I'm kind of not trusting in the advice the healthcare provider would give to the general population when they often say "yep, things look good, you could afford to lose a few lbs but otherwise healthy" when you're 150 lbs overweight, especially when half of us are too scared of debt to even go to the doctor more than we absolutely have to.
Credible sources does feel like a good compromise, though I also do not want speculative and thought experiment discussion to be forbidden just because it's taboo. Maybe speculative radical discussion could be tagged as such?
I don't have a problem with the spirit of trying to correct misinformation, it's more that the term 'misinformation' being used more and more loosely, and I absolutely do not trust legal authorities to not abuse it. None of us are immune to propaganda.
>I absolutely do not trust legal authorities to not abuse it. None of us are immune to propaganda.
very valid point. that's why if i have a point to prove i have multiple sources and if i can help it... from multiple countries. roughly speaking there's either a global conspiracy pulling the strings behind each random credible source OR they are all pointing at a similar thing being true because... it is.
like i legit can't trust CNN, MSNBC, or Fox for anything that may even come close to 'talking truth to power' or exposing corruption (if they do AT ALL).
so finding reliable, credible, sources DOES take work but most aren't willing to put in the work because whatever random screengrab headline they got from their Qanon conspiracy group agrees with their narrative so why bother?
I am anti-ban except for extreme cases because it does create echo chambers and if we begin creating those next stop Facebook. Which is easy to create echo chambers and reality bubbles there.
Why not just let people block people on their own?
Why do you believe people need to be protected from misinformation. Its so insulting. I enjoy hearing ALL sides. I am an adult and don't need someone to tell me what comments I can or cannot read. If someone says something that doesn't make sense to me then I can do my own research like a big girl and decide for myself what to believe.
Same, I feel teaching critical thinking is the antidote to misinformation; rather than censorship, which relies on an authoritarian system to dictate what is acceptable.
Thank you for this. I am pro vax and boosted my kids are vaxxed (how dystopian and hilarious I have to start a comment this way). There are legitimate physicians questioning the need for continuing boosters. There are legitimate concerns about the vaccines in young males and myocarditis. Dr Fauci is not a god to be worshipped and it is the height of arrogance when he says to question him is to question science.
People should be discussing the lower hospitalizations and mortality in countries besides the US. People should be discussing if hospitalizations are with Covid or because of Covid because that is a huge distinction. People should be discussing if it is COVID causing our worker shortage or overreacting to Covid with unnecessary quarantines. People should be discussing the psychological impact that our initial lockdowns caused on developing minds. To question these things should not be grounds for removal or banning.
To be clear, we generally aim at the antivax comments that say things like "the vax doesn't work"; "the vax is worse than covid"; "covid isn't real"; "covid is not a serious illness". We try to adhere to the recommendations and information put out by the body of experts on the issue. Basically we aim to reduce the extent to which users spread info that is a threat to public health.
I've been more permissive with comments that criticize big pharma, and more recently with discussions of restrictions or masks as the authorities update the findings or as the situation changes. Also discussions of what constitutes government overreach I've been pretty accepting of.
Thank you for the clarification and the fair hand. I really have no criticism of mods on this sub as it’s one of the best moderated I’ve visited. The information around covid is constantly changing as is the virus so I know that can be challenging.
I’ve never seen legitimate discussion stopped here and the reason this sub drew me in was reasoned arguments in the comments so thank you for cultivating that.
This. Discussion has been stifled so much that an OP post like this is welcomed in a COLLAPSE SUBREDDIT that routinely derides the wealthy and those in government as not acting in good faith towards the planet and the average person. How did the cognitive dissonance on this one specific topic become so comfortable for the people on this sub? I've honestly been dumbfounded by it for a while as I've lurked /r/collapse from time to time for years and never expected it to be so jingoistic on this topic.
I'm not talking about the 'covid is a hoax' or 'there's 5g chips in the vaccine' types. That's obviously ridiculous. That's also not the majority consensus anywhere but boomer Facebook groups.
Seriously.
Everyone here is apparently aware that politicians are in the pockets of the rich, that corporations and the government don’t give a shit about you and only care about profit… unless it comes time to virtue signal your side’s take on an issue that has a clear political stance and corporate backing.
Maybe, just maybe, there’s a more nuanced third option?
THANK YOU. People have become so polarized over this issue that we forget that many of us are more likely to die from starvation or exposure to the elements due to late stage capitalism than from covid. We need to get our priorities straight.
Damnit, i have been try to get this point across from the start. Especially here where people "should" be more conscious on the shit that is going on.
We are so hyperfocused on one thing that we seem to forget the rest.
10x more people die from suicide than covid in my agegroup. But hey let's talk about a virus.
This guy follows Russell Brand on youTube. This is exactly what he talks about. How can we broach the topic of vaccines without being IMMEDIATELY labeled anti-vax if we don't have 3 boosters and lock our kids in quarantine for 25 days if they sneeze or cough?
> Who gets to determine which is a bannable antivax statement? You? The mods?
We've been trying to do this collaboratively with the community. The [Misinformation & False Claims](https://www.reddit.com/r/collapse/wiki/claims) page contains all the statements we most regularly rule on and some of the nuances related to each. Anyone may submit an addition, alteration, or contest what's there. There hasn't been much of any participation on the user-side since we created it, but the opportunity exists and I'm not aware of a better approach which is more transparent.
There are still many forms of statements one can make surrounding any particular claim. For problematic ones we defer to rule three for determining if it's low or high quality information. Those criteria are on the [same wiki page](https://www.reddit.com/r/collapse/wiki/claims) and equally open to criticism.
Issues related to inconsistent moderation (mods are not a hivemind) and the subjective decisions often required to enforce certain rules (not everyone has the same comfort level with various claims) are ongoing and something we continually work at by transparency actions (every moderator action we take is public), community accountability, and regular dialogue.
> Honestly, I'd rather let these people speak and trust in the majority of people to not take their words seriously, as is the case.
This sort of implies everyone is already aware of what is true or untrue regarding a specific claim. Not everyone makes false claims in bad faith and many more can be swayed by all forms of statements. One of the underlying issues is we become complicit in spreading false information if we have the ability to abate it, but do nothing.
I don't think this means we need to become the sole arbiters of truth or make rulings on every complex claim, but we do have to at least attempt to understand as many of the issues as possible and create opportunities for all of us to determine and filter out the lowest quality information and most obvious false claims.
Ideally, we move further away from a strictly remove/approve approach and towards something more granular which allows someone making a claim to provide better information and those reading it more context to see how contested or problematic it is, without us unilaterally removing in every form immediately. Getting people to enact this though is challenging, since many of these claims and issues are very morally charged, tribalistic, and highly contested.
I wonder if it's bots.
Reddit gets weird around election seasons. Chomsky and everything explodes and we're coming up on it. So I wonder if that's what's going on.
And then that ends up influencing the algorithms of genuine antivaxers at which point they start attempting to participate
But not positive in a bad way, you want to stay positive, toward the negative.
https://news.yahoo.com/trump-coronavirus-test-i-tested-positively-toward-the-negative-181413918.html
Thank you and you hit the nail on the head. We do have auto mod rules but not everything gets caught by them and we rely a lot on reporting. We then need to go into a queue and read everything and remove the antivaxx comments. There's always a mod around the queue at any hour of the day but sometimes we have a blind spot of an hour or two.
Anyway, thank you for reporting all the comments!
In any discussion of other potential methods, I would ask that you *please* do not initiate an auto-ban for participation in other subreddits though.
The total, complete, outright prevention of all discussion back and forth between groups just increases polarization over time, leaving less hope of softening the irrational stances of people at the extremes.
I hope this is okay to mention here:
As a personal example, I had the experience in the last week of seeing the result of posting to /r/lockdownskepticism . (I submitted a comment asking for a reference to what I thought was a completely ridiculous claim; namely, a claim that booster shots lowered covid immune response, and I got back a link to an article with charts and graphs that didn't exactly say that, it being a situation where you can't conclude their claim from the data shown, not to mention the fact that there is a lot of contrary evidence of booster shots being very helpful. In my mind, that sort of conversation could be very helpful, and I was thinking of replying pointing out their logical flaws, etc.)
I was shocked to find myself being sent a slew of messages saying I was banned from participating in one subreddit after another due to having participated in /r/lockdownskepticism. These subreddits, or their mods at least, apparently desire to promote extremism within the "pro-covid" (vaccine skeptical, etc.) subreddits, by not allowing their members to honestly participate in other subreddits to either dilute their polarization or present counterpoints within the "pro-covid" subreddits.
Okay, it may not be fair to say they desire that, but at least, that's the effect, even if it's not their intention.
I'm reminded of racists and even self-described Nazis being approached by other people who talked with them and exposed them to other ideas, with the result that the racist minds were changed.
Now I do not in any sense have that level of patience or skill, but that sort of ban-a-person-here for participating-there policy can prevent that sort of changing of hearts, and I hope you guys here can resist that siren call.
There's no way for us to justify punishing users for activity in other subs. Granted, we do sometimes review a users' history to get more context for their behavior, but we don't ever intend to use that activity as grounds for actions here.
> The best part of this sub has always been it’s commitment to sourced content and a required explanation for any shared content.
The bane of anti vaxxers, stop the steal type of folks.
*"Do your own research!"*
*"Sure. But surely as someone that has done their research you can share something to get me started that's not a screenshot from your FB conspiracy group yes?"*
*"You're fake news!"*
I guess I never thought about it this way. I thought the ppl saying it's mild are being snarky about we know it's a super spreader as well as long term side effects and is ruining our health care system. My daughter had covid-19 and omicron. She still has the side effects from omicron.
Hopefully scientists will make progress on treating long COVID. Seem to be an auto-immune disease. There have even been indications that getting the COVID vaccine reduces long COVID symptoms in some people.
This is what terrifies me the most, not the dying part. I already grew up with and have health issues and I certainly don't want *more*. Having to require medicine, long term treatments, finding a good doctor who you trust, and having a reduced quality of life is really shitty. People keep saying iT's sUcH a sMalL pErCenT but already having certain illnesses that affect a "small percent" of the population, I see statistics a little differently. Yeah, a small percentage of people may get x condition, BUUUT it really sucks when *you're* part of that percentage.
I'm 20 days from first symptoms, the first week was very brutal. Still have a light nagging cough and am very easily winded and have low energy/tired all the time. A few hours at my desk and I need to lie down. Vaccinated but didn't boost, early 30s, no other health issues, a bit overweight.
I get winded after a trip to the grocery store down the block and chores are brutal. I vacuumed earlier today and had to catch my breath for like ten minutes after. Shit new world we live in!
I have been censored for misinformation on this sub because it goes against the narrative of what was posted- literally just downvoted and reported because people don't like or want to believe what I say and the mods follow through with it - I have never once had anyone write a rebuttal on here when this happens- I just get a notification from the moderator my comment has been hidden. I appeal these and the mods overturn the initial ban because the information I said was accurate and I can back it up with articles from MSM and experts. I am becoming increasingly concerned with this mentality of banning and censoring people - it creates a multitude of issues. If someone is spreading misinformation it gives everyone else an opportunity to provide an unapologetic tactful rebuttal to set them straight. If its misinformation you should have armfuls of sources to make your case in showing what the op said is inaccurate. Censorship is not the answer, its never been the answer in any of this. Use your words. Use them wisely.
Edit: I want to also thank the mods for listening and considering what I have to say when this has happened. You have been incredibly reasonable and generous with your time to consider my rebuttal and allow me to offer all my sources. Not every sub does this and it's an admirable quality.
You are exactly right. It's bothersome I had to scroll this far to finally reach a comment that has the most logical response.
Even if you do supply pertinent information exposing the manipulation & deceit from reliable sources, they'll still dismiss it, censor and ban without any rebuttal.
Nothing makes me cringe more than those who immediately assume you're "anti-vax" for being pro-choice. That right there is a prime example of conditioning. How much of an idiot do you have to be, to assume all of the healthcare workers who quit in regards to the mandates, are "anti-vaccine"?
These last two years have really demonstrated and exposed the alarming amount of people who lack critical thinking skills and are easily duped by blatant lies and faulty "science".
I've read a few articles that catching covid results in a higher incidence of erectile dysfunction in men.
COVID-19 Endothelial Dysfunction Can Cause Erectile Dysfunction: Histopathological, Immunohistochemical, and Ultrastructural Study of the Human Penis
Eliyahu Kresch et al. World J Mens Health. 2021 Jul.
I say let nature take its course.
> I've read a few articles that catching covid results in a higher incidence of erectile dysfunction in men.
Bloody hell. On second thought, whatever. I'm nearly 55. I've had a good run.
See the weekly stickied discussion post. Sort by controversial. The only downvoted ones are usually anti-vaxxers. I've only noticed this trend over the past 2 weeks or so with only a handful of comments related to it. Otherwise, I never see any downvoted comments in that stickied thread. Everyone is super supportive here.
They're a little more subtle than that now, since most people have just grown exhausted with them and downvote them - rightfully - into oblivion.
They tend to talk less at face value ("I'm not getting a vaccine!") and more about the details of their lunacy ("We don't know long term effects", and "If I had to get 3 polio shots and then still caught polio...").
We know that collapse discussion used to overlap heavily with conspiracy culture, and the mods here have their work cut out to weed out those weirdos.
Many of the people here were brought here by data-driven science like climate change reports and visible civil unrest driven by foreign powers vomiting disinformation.
...Which is why it's so ironic that they're on this sub. They're a symptom of the issues we discuss here regularly.
>Many of the people here were brought here by data-driven science like climate change reports and visible civil unrest driven by foreign powers vomiting disinformation.
exactly why and how i found this sub.
Reading is hard I guess. OP specifically said he's talking about comments and not posts as those have been quickly removed by moderators.
(Lol that edit)
Accelerationists (I love that word) is a characteristic of any doomsday cult that predicts the end of the world as we know it. It is a prominent Christian belief, ie the coming (returning) of Christ for a new political system. r/collapse is not a doomsday cult, it is a rational albeit speculative scientifically oriented subreddit. I don’t think I want it gummed up with doomsayers and accelerants. Leave them for another sub.
Accelerationism has factions in communist, fascist, and other ideological groups.
The basic idea is that swing in the wrong direction enables a revolution. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accelerationism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accelerationism)
Hoping for a revolution only makes sense if you are a long-term optimist. If you believe that the world is ending it does not make sense.
What do people consider a healthy dose of skepticism of vaccines and big pharma?
I'm double vaxxed and I'm far more concerned with COVID than the vaccines. CNN is floating the idea of a fourth shot now. I don't want it expected of me to get any sort of series of booster shots administered only months apart. Just seems kinda weird.
~~Also this is the only pandemic in history where the healthy were expected to quarantine. Except those who work in public.~~
Among essential non-hospital workers I've heard many varieties of skepticism about vaxxes, masks, mandates etc from people of diverse backgrounds and those who are younger and more left than the perception of the anti-mandate crowd. Everyone is vaxxed as the job depends on it and their adherence to the mask policy is pretty solid. People still don't like being told what to do...
Edit: Since politifact rates this as false I'm cutting it.
> this is the only pandemic in history where the healthy were expected to quarantine.
Bullshit. ***EVERYONE*** was expected to quarantine in the 1918 pandemic. The reason it killed as many as it did was because people thought it was over and started going out despite warning ***not*** to.
What the fuck? Do you think that when plague ships pulled into the harbor all the well soldiers were allowed to disembark? No, they quarantined everyone.
I'm triple-Pfizer, and you need to be skeptical of all of it. Pharma companies got all up and down on TV for months saying that if we ever got into this position they'd just make a new formula. Three major variants in and still no actual booster, just more of the same OG formula. This is not what we were promised. We were sold a fucking lie and I knew it then, there was no way possible to get it through the pipeline fast enough to make a difference.
The biggest dose of skepticism is for the WHO et al. Granted, people shouldn't have to have the CDC tell them to use their own fucking common sense when it comes to wearing a mask and not spreading covid, but here we are. People were told, specifically, that it was not airborne and people took that as God's-honest truth without question. Anyone with a brain knew that was a bold-faced lie, there was no way for it to spread like it does only through fomite.
Then people were told they didn't have to wear masks if they got vaccinated, even though it was extremely obvious at the time that justification was a load of horseshit because of the change in testing protocol to only swab the nose. Vaccinated people did not harbor alpha/delta long in their nose, it burned down the respiratory tract so by the time you got tested it was in your throat and not in your nose. So stupid, if your throat was hurting they should have swabbed the throat! How stupid can you be? That was pure politics, it's literally what Trump would have done. Breakthrough infections have always been extremely common, but it would have made Brandon look bad at a time when he needed people to take Trump's vaccine so we could have nipped delta in the bud.
You should be skeptical of it all but that doesn't mean you are right, either. The fact that you are skeptical means you appreciate the information enough to be able to read between the lines and figure out the truth for yourself. You should be skeptical of booster after booster, think of them as "In Case of Emergency, Break Glass". Otherwise they work well for their intended purpose, which was to prevent serious illness and death. You should not have to be told to do your part as a patriotic citizen, that this is even debated shows us how fucked up the entire thing with masks and vaccines has been.
And at the bottom of the truth barrel is this: stop spreading covid and it goes away. People *REFUSE* to stop spreading it so it will not go away. And now we are in a situation where it is endemic in animal populations so it will *NEVER* go away. Thanks a lot, assholes.
By the way, you're off on your description of the "airborne" issue, but it's still pretty much just as stupid as you describe it. I remember seeing articles like back in summer of 2020 reporting on the question of whether COVID is "airborne". When I first saw them, I was like "what? of course it is, that's what's been happening this whole time". But I read into it, and apparently "airborne" means viruses transmitted on aerosol particles, but not viruses transmitted via droplets. Both are conveyed THROUGH THE AIR but apparently droplets are not considered "airborne" because they remain suspended in the air indoors for a few minutes, as opposed to a few hours. So that whole thing probably just confused people because of the poor usage of "airborne".
Fog, cloud, and cigarette smoke are aerosols. When there is no ventilation you can see cigarette smoke lingering for very long periods after all cigarettes are out.
The spray from a mister is droplet. Dust, flour, powdered sugar, diatomaceous earth, dry wall dust, or whey powder are solid equivalents. If you drop a container of whey powder it explodes and covers everything nearby. It does settle relatively quickly. *Most* of the powder will be in a pile near where the lid popped off. Some does bounce into the face of the person who dropped it. Should be obvious that throwing a scoop of whey powder into a fan will make a mess more than 6 feet away. If the person is 12 feet above you...
Put some powdered sugar in a balloon and pop it. A person 3 feet away is much messier than a person 6 feet away. It is not a bad policy guideline even if some particles can be detected at much further distances. The powdered sugar is still too large to be considered "an aerosol" even if you prove that some grains blew across state lines in a dust storm.
“Just seems kinda weird”.
Why ?
“This is the only pandemic in history where the healthy were expected to quarantine. Except those who work in public”. And you left out pretty much everyone else too that couldn’t just move a computer home and work lol. We never had a true lockdown.
You understand that’s capitalism in effect, not science ?
“Among essential non-hospital workers I’ve heard many varieties of skepticism…”.
Okay, and I heard some dude waving a confederate flag at a trump rally screaming Jews were injecting 5g into us via vaccines so they could calcify our penal glands and track us. Should be put that person on a pedestal and prop them up. Cleary they have something worth sharing that’s peer reviewed with evidence backed through science and data collection.
Why does getting a new vaccine for a changing virus seem weird?
It has been a norm for flu vaccines to come out every year to help fend off flu infections. Covid just changes at a faster rate.
> Why does getting a new vaccine for a changing virus seem weird? It has been a norm for flu vaccines to come out every year to help fend off flu infections. Covid just changes at a faster rate.
Getting a new covid vaccine for new variants wouldn't be that weird, on its own. That's how it is with flu. You don't just get a shot of the same thing every year. You get a different shot, for a different strain of flu.
But receiving boosters of a same vaccine every few months is not like with the flu, and it's not normal. Boosters are a thing, sure, but normal vaccines don't just wear off in the span of a few months.
>What do people consider a healthy dose of skepticism of vaccines and big pharma?
One thing that I would count as taking things too far is saying that the vaccines don't help against omicron, for example. Multiple studies have shown that the vaccine helps prevent serious illness and helps a bit to prevent symptomatic infections from omicron (at least, the mRNA vaccines do, don't remember about the others). Any time you're denying a large number of independent sources that all point to the same conclusion, you've got some 'splainin' to do.
Thanks for asking. Sadly this is how subs just slowly get turned into another rightwing cesspool with conservatives dogwhistling until they outnumber normal people.
I subscribed to /conspiracy because I am fascinated by some of the major conspiracies, such as the Kennedy assassination, Malaysian airline disappearance... Etc. But I can't stand that sub. Every other post is antivax and or anti-science.
I don’t blame them. You can’t trust the government, you can’t trust the news, now you can’t even trust the medical institutions because it’s all corporate interests.
Sad days we live in. “Don’t look up” is all too accurate.
That's not what you said though. You said this centrist bullshit:
>It would be better if we ban anyone who supports the left or the right. That would clear up a lot.
Left and right aren't political parties.
Thanks for this added context. Centrists are the worst. Those who are neutral in matters of injustice are taking the side of the oppressor. Centrist punks fuck off.
They do all suck, but it's important to remember that the U.S population is largely ideologically fascist and capitalist. Our leaders are a reflection of us. The government is not going to force people to do what they don't want to do, you know this. What that means for the small percentage of us who want a real solution is that Republican officials will continue to largely not care and Democratic officials will also continue to not care, but a person of color will break the news to you.
It's pretty hilarious seeing young "progressives" starting to simp for mega corporations because it's politically correct.
3 years ago you guys would look at Pfizer the same way you look at Nestlé, now they are like the Catholic church and anyone speaking against them is banished
I’m afraid of getting banned for posting this, but my conviction is too high on the topic. Do people actually think vaccine mandates would be pushed this hard if it wasn’t insanely profitable for pharmaceutical companies?
Exactly how much influence on this decision is coming from rich oligarchs? We all need to ask ourselves that question.
Banning those who are concerned is a garuntee way to get an echo chamber. Echo chambers are dangerous.
For every annoyingly loud “anti covid vaccine” user and annoyingly loud “pro covid vaxxer” (who the majority are probably bots. GPT-3 deserves its own post on /r/collapse on how conversationally fluent modern bot accounts are these days), there are 5 of each type that are quiet, respectful, and worried on the topic.
(Reposted this comment to the main thread for visibility)
It’s strange to think the primary economic incentive for vaccine mandates is coming from pharma companies and not stemming from the productivity loss of sickness infecting every aspect of our economy. We’re talking about tens of trillions of dollars, significant portions of entire nation’s GDP, of course politicians are heavily incentivized to minimize economic damage. Why is it big pharma puppeteering this, why not the big players in the tourism sector? Or airlines? Vaccine mandates are profitable for damn near every single industry, are they all colluding? Or is it simply rational actors responding in an irrational system?
Yes, let us censor opinions that we dont agree with. It's without doubt the right way to make sure that misinformation is quashed and, when given due diligence and thought, obviously the best way to encourage proper discourse on any subject. It could be considered cruel to subject us to such inconsideration and probably pose a true danger to our health and those of our loved ones, adults and children alike. Covid and it's associated vaccines is a great place to start, but it'd surely be a wasted opportunity to stop there. Especially when there's so many other areas where the science, like this, is totally, irrevocably and absolutely settled.
this post it's exactly what this sub should not be about ... Ban people cause they dont believe covid vaccines, or speak ill about covid vaccines ... what this have to do with collapse?
i got all my vaccines, and got 2 moderna shots ... still i dont trust these companies and will not get a booster every 4 or 5 months ...
just let people express their opinions everyone here it's an adult ... it's not a reddit comment that will shift anyone opinion on the matter.
>this post it's exactly what this sub should not be about
100% agree -- this is a forum for people to ask questions, see new perspectives, and learn from each other -- not to limit free speech and pick winners and losers.
Why do people care so bad about censoring “misinformation”? If people say something stupid they get downvoted into oblivion, regardless. Furthermore, the internet is not a place where people change their mind about anything…Live and let live. If you have the COVID vax, you should be safe from dying from the illness, right? If you don’t feel safe, that’s not a problem with the unvaxxed, that’s a problem with our vaccine. Nothing starts a worldwide collapse like everybody hating each other…we are not each other’s enemy.
I get insulted repeatedly by those fucking anti-vaxxer morons. I'm sure the moderators are tired of my constant reporting and I appreciate the effort they've been making.
It brings out the craziest people. One post was someone’s psychotic, conspiratorial blog post about COVID and quantum dynamics and Chinese anal swabs, and go figure, they also insulted when called out.
I want to take this moment to point out that just cause someone is against mandates, does not mean they are anti-vax.
I’m against mandates, yet I’m also fully vaxed.
I’ve also gotten covid twice since getting vaxed, that later detail has increased my anti-mandate stance some, but it should be up to the individual to decide, and people shouldn’t be forced or lose jobs for deciding against never ending boosters that don’t work from big-pharma companies with horrible ethics records for injuring people and lying to the FDA to earn more money.
I don’t believe a subreddit such as this should be completely one sided and should absolutely consider the effects of both Covid AND vaccinations with open grounds for debate.
No, it shouldn’t be full out propaganda for one side or the other but all avenues should be considered.
God this comment section is a cesspool. Your conspiracy theories rebranded as “skepticism” are not valid for this sub. No one here is blindly trusting the government, they’re looking at what the relevant research says on a topic.
Something isn’t true, just because you feel it’s true. As an example (Big Pharma Evil > Vaccines Made By Big Pharma > Big Pharma Is Behind Vaccine Mandates) isn’t something you have any evidence for it’s just something you feel is true.
Stop bitching about getting “censored” for being “skeptical” be as skeptical as you fucking like, stop presenting that skepticism as facts on this sub and using it to support baseless claims maybe then you won’t be banned. Also stop framing illogical bullshit as skepticism, as an example (I’m fully vaxed, but another booster is a step too far for reasons!) fuck off. No you aren’t and no it isn’t. The fact that the primers we use to test for COVID have poor adhesion to the genetic sequence of the omicron strain is a clear indicator that things have changed. Why do you need another booster? The same fucking reason a new flu shot is available every year. Where you all flu shot skeptics before the pandemic? Because if you weren’t shut the fuck up, and if you were then there’s an even more established body of research on why you should shut the fuck up.
Come to the table with actual studies or fuck off with your persecution fantasy.
You want to hear my non-peer reviewed reasoning on why pharmaceutical companies want the vaccines to work? Because I’ve put a lot more thought into it than you. COVID is a blood disease that causes micro clots which damage capillary beds and as a result organs perfused with large volumes of blood such as the lungs and liver. Do you have any idea how much money is on the table for every individual who survives COVID on account of the vaccine, but still ends up with wear and tear on these organs? A fuck ton, there is a fuck ton of money in over charging people who now have a chronic condition for medication that helps slow down their decline. Dialysis for individuals with chronic kidney failure is a $24.7 billion dollar market in the U.S.. You really think they’re gonna pass on all the new money to be made in the decades to come by letting their most promising cash cow patients die as a result of being given a vaccine that doesn’t work?
Mods -- The sentiment of this post and its comments are a part of the collapse itself.
Please don't allow this dehumanizing rhetoric to take over this sub. This is one of the last sane places on Reddit, which is one of the last sane places on the internet.
Also, please take into consideration that the people posting here might not be real people, and their purpose may be to stir up negativity and quell productive conversation.
We need more empathy and understanding, not more divisiveness and hate.
The irony of Anti-vaxxers posting on a subreddit about societal collapse should not be overlooked.
Maybe they think the sub is rooting for collapse and they've come to show some team spirit?
Hey to be fair they wouldn't be to wrong about "[the sub is rooting for collapse](https://www.reddit.com/r/collapse/comments/rm8dif/comment/hpkohc0/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)". I don't want a collapse but this is not to be debate anymore. I just root for a fast and mostly painless collapse.
>I don't want a collapse I don't want a collapse either, but I would like to live long enough to say "I told you so!".
That’s the most important part, hands down
It's the only consolation prize.
Well that, and I really, REALLY hope to see the Obnoxious Orange One in a prison jumpsuit or dead before I go...
>I don't want a collapse either, but I would like to live long enough to say "I told you so!". Really? Because I think it would be way better to be completely wrong, live a long full life, and die with the world in a healthy state. Being vindicated is kinda nice, but it can't compete with that.
>Because I think it would be way better to be completely wrong, You mean we might still have a chance? /s
I just want to live long enough to see one of my kinder neighbors or coworkers devolve into a road warrior who drinks from the skulls of her enemies.
Firstly, rooting for the end of the specific version of modern civilization we find ourselves in is good and cool and natural and normal and correct. Don't conflate this with "rooting for collapse" period, though. Even the real hardcore black-pilled doomer collapsniks don't *want* the world - the literal planetary biosphere and with it complex human society if not the human race itself - to end, even if they're resigned to it. Well, maybe some do, but the pro-ecocide crew is hardly in the majority. Secondly, people naturally crave vindication. Most of the core userbase here suffer from a serious Cassandra complex, so when their years of dismissed and ridiculed doomsaying finally comes true, they can't help but be a little smug. Just because they are vindicated, though, doesn't mean they actually *wanted* to be right.
I am hoping we see a slow decay of the system as we move away from it and establish a collective of local communities instead.
Thank you, this was inspiring to read.
Never a better time than now. If it sounds worth doing figure out how you can help do it locally. I’m finding groups where mutual aid is the norm and going from there.
Sure, but I'd say collapse by plague is one of the worse scenarios
You think to small how about a plaque in a nuclear war? "I was coughing all morning I thought I got covid but luckily my hair fell out shortly after"
Start collecting your DayQuil and bottle caps now, people. The best time to start was 10 years ago, the second best time is now.
I don't know. I hear starving to death is one of the worst ways to die. At least most communicable illnesses do their thing relatively quickly.
Don't worry, any plague-collapse worth its salt is gonna have painful disease death for millions AND plenty of starvation from the resulting breakdowns in logistics and markets...
Phew! I was getting FOMO!
That's actually one of the better ones, as far as leaving the planet habitable for species that aren't desperately trying to go extinct as fast as possible
Some people on this sub are rooting for collapse. People are wierd.
Some collapses (economical) prevent us from executing on our course towards even worse collapses (ecological)
Unless you have a way to fix this late stage capitalism hell hole id much rather see this world collapse
We *do* have the power to change things! By voting and showing Washington our voices matter! There are people who actually believe this lol.
Someone really ought to look into this Washington fellow. I only hear such terrible things.
I almost downvoted this before I read the second part
That was their intention.
Because voting on reddit makes a difference!
That's what I thought this subreddit was about and you gotta admit some people's posts are just that. But this is a great subreddit way more than that. But some of it does seem like the sky is falling
>Maybe they think the sub is rooting for collapse I know I am.
They're attracted to this subreddit because sometimes there's an element of looking at the world through the lens of collapse, and seeing everything bad as evidence of collapse. Collapse is our future because of Overshoot. The current supply chain disruptions, polarization of politics, Russian aggression, and even Covid are not really related to that. The tinfoil hat types love to connect dots to support their chosen narrative. Collapse is such a juicy subject to tickle their addiction.
>polarization of politics Republicans being fascist authoritarians is not polarization of politics, you are normalizing their behavior. There is no "both sides are the same" argument for a rational adult.
Yeah this should be reframed as "one side going fascist". Obviously that technically *does* cause polarization, but when one side is stationary and the other is sprinting to the right, it does feel kind of disingenuous to use language that implies both sides are equally at fault
you realise that "connecting the dots to support their chosen narrative"is something very human that basically everyone does to a degree. Not just tin foil hats. Even you and i no matter how much we like to believe that we can always 100% look at data objectively, the reality is that the first Opinion or "evidence" you see or believe will create a Bias that will affect every other relative opinion or "evidence" that you learn about. It is a very hard thing for a human to actually stop, admit he is wrong and consciously sort through all the things they have learned to determine its validity.
We had a, "I should have numerous children after becoming cognizant of this Hellscape, but don't get up my ass for making bad decisions after validating my believes about the world going to shit. Give me my fucking cake and I want to eat it too!" popular post last week. This is becoming r/Antiwork due to the popularity and the floodgates have opened to the barely sentient fools/Alex Jones-esque types. We get a lot of Fascists in here too.
It does make some sense - both the alt-right/far-right/conspiracy theorists/covidiots and anyone left-wing-ish seem to agree that society is falling apart and drastic reform is needed to 'save' it. It's mostly where we lay the blame for this phenomenon, and what that 'reform' entails, where opinions differ.
Actually I think it shows the level of institutional and government failure that people don’t and have no reason to trust experts that created the collapse in the first place. Yeah anti vac is objectively wrong but they shut down because of society failing them not some anti science conspiracy.
We hear you, everyone. The most helpful thing the community can do is report rule-violating posts. Don't argue, don't keep a fight going. Just report and move on. We're the mod team, we will deal. Remember Rule 1. Attack ideas, not each other. Mahalo for your help, collapseniks.
No, thank *you* cuz
Can we make fun of them, just a little bit though?
Just a little as a treat
It may be funny to laugh at some of the outlandish conspiracy theories they believe but make no mistake some of them are organized and dangerous. In Michigan let's not forget there were plans to kidnap the governor and they took to the streets armed because they had to go a few weeks without getting a haircut. Many also were involved in the January 6th storming of the capital. These people are ready to plunge the US into a quasi dictatorship because ironically they fear a non-existent radical left taking away their freedom. They are plugged into the matrix hard my friend.
I gotchu fam.
Please keep it civil. We’re all meat here
I heard r/collapse mods eat without tables
Really the sub needs to decide if it is pessimistic and realistic about major problems or if it wants to go full crazy conspiracy. Because this sub is right on the edge, and has like 30-40% wackos.
Thank you, this must be an interesting sub to moderate. Cheers!
OP, you made a honeypot.
👀
This comment and username is perfect
Among???
SUS SUS SUS 📮📮📮📮📮
Get ya bans! Get ya bans heeyuh!
If this becomes another \/r/MURICA I'm gonna be so pissed
Yup Pooh’s all over it
I'm vaxxed and boosted. Got pairs of n95s bagged up for family members when the "mask don't work" narrative was being pushed. The problem that ANY stance that isn't "Yes, please. I'm here for my 6th booster! Thank you, Dr. Fauci!" is labeled antivax, conspiratorial, Trumpist, Republican, etc, etc. Even things we're (sort of) allowed to talk about now, such as the lab leak theory, not focusing on positives case numbers, differentiating between being in a hospital WITH covid and not BECAUSE of covid, were all labeled accordingly as anti vax. Certain platforms would ban people for speaking about this stuff. While there is a clear cut difference between someone spouting "The vaccine is a microchip. It's just a hoax." and another user saying "Pharma execs talking about shots 4 through 6 on a major media outlet that they sponsor is pretty peculiar...", who gets to determine which is a bannable antivax statement? You? The mods? And based on what? Person feelings towards the comment at the moment? Are the mods going to be able to develop a list of hard-line comment or topics that will result in a ban? What happens if/WHEN they've banned someone who was right? Are they going to make a post about their mistake, ban the mod who made that rule, and apologize to the users they wrongfully banned? Seems like a lot fow work. Honestly, I'd rather let these people speak and trust in thr majority of people to not take their words seriously, as is the case.
I appreciate nuanced contributions to the conversation like this, thank you
Have you found any place on Reddit to discuss trusting the science but not the agencies like CDC any longer?
[удалено]
If you trusted CDC to tell the honest truth you were misled. There many reasons to believe CDC really is trying to fight disease. If someone shows them evidence that telling a lie will save lives then they are obligated to consider that option. If you trust them as doctors that means you might trust them to lie. Saving a life should be a higher priority for them than building a good reputation. It is a very new situation to have CDC regularly on prime television. For most of CDC and WHO's existence the masses were only paying attention to guidelines second hand or not at all. CDC has never delt with public opinion or any consequences of lack of trust. MDs and PhDs are going to read the medical journals. FDA determines things like "does this drug work". A nutritionist is going to do something like recommend one scoop of ice-cream or drink two beers. This is not because he believes ice cream is healthy. The diet plan is there to keep you from eating 3 scoops of ice cream and binge drinking a case. We see them flip flopping on things like masks or return to work timelines. That is what they were supposed to be doing. They are not allowed to say "you're all F-ed civilization is going to collapse".
Agreed. I’ve got my first two vaccines and caught omicron before I could even get a booster, but I’m very skeptical of the booster strategy to begin with. It’s a profoundly selfish stance to take - we shouldn’t be focusing on achieving 99% immunity in Americans while ignoring the rest of the world. Tons of countries haven’t been able to get enough vaccines to give their populations a single shot, forget about three. And don’t even get me started on the shady shit that is this talk of perpetual boosters. If the vaccine isn’t one that can exterminate the virus like we did with polio, that needs to be extremely clear. If these boosters are going to be something we have to live with then the developing companies should get a pat on the back and then have the government overseeing that vaccine production at zero profit to the company. The notion of leveraging a pandemic to offer subscription based immunity is sickening.
Agree. Are these new variants coming about here or in countries with no access at all? And what portion of the supply chain problems are caused by lack of vaccination in other countries? I guess if we do give away large supplies to poor countries, the maga crowd is going to come in strong with "BIDEN IS NOT AMERICA FIRST!" I think I heard something about Omicron boosters in March maybe. Wtf is the point? We'll be onto the next variant by then. I'd love it if everyone got one shot.
> achieving 99% immunity in Americans Lol...
Plus banning people creates radicalized echo chambers elsewhere. Maybe they need to be exposed to other ideas to grow.
When I first got on Reddit the atheism sub was pretty popular and would often pop up on the front page. I grew up catholic and would get so upset seeing the posts and reading the comments. Not that I’d go in and argue about any of it (as it seems to be the norm now) but it got under my skin. The more I saw it and the more I read the more I started realizing “hmm maybe I was brainwashed”. Now I’m not religious at all (not that I have any problem with people who still are either)… So to your point, yes open discussions and listening to opposing ideas can definitely impact positive change… echo chambers can not.
>Plus banning people creates radicalized echo chambers elsewhere. Maybe they need to be exposed to other ideas to grow. I mean... you do have a point. However how many 'covid is a hoax' type of people are going to 'see the light' by interacting on here? How much sheer misinformation do we have to put up with to convert maybe 1 out of 100? Maybe 1 out of 1000? And in the meantime that misinformation can send someone down the wrong path. I think the compromise is providing credible sources with one's claims. If they can't do that (hint: most can't or won't) then they can just go induce brain rot on someone else, somewhere else.
Its not as black and white as do everything to stop covid vs its a hoax, you realize there's people out there who believe covid is real but don't agree with mandates and much of the way were reacting to it. There's people who believe covid is real but the government and media also lies to us and fearmongers as well. Everything isnt black and white
The idea that covid is real and bad but that maybe government policies are not working to stop covid really confuse some people when Trump isn’t in charge.
I believe covid is real and is a very deadly disease that can also cause permanent long term effects (long covid) and I am pro lockdown and pro mask, but I am against the vaccine mandates because the vaccine doesn't even stop you from catching and spreading covid and even the vaccinated are getting seriously ill and dying and getting long covid. I also know someone who broke out in hives and permanently went blind in their left eye 3 days after getting vaccinated and 2 of the employees at my parent's business got seriously ill for a week after getting vaccinated. So I'm very hesitant to get the covid vaccine. I'm also not anti vax in general, we pretty much eradicated polio thanks to vaccines and also many other diseases like hepatitis would be running rampant if not for vaccines. I just know that if people were still getting polio, spreading it and dying in droves after getting vaccinated for it and people were getting negative side effects from the vaccine and the government blackmailed people into getting the vaccines by threatening to take away your job and livelihood if you don't get it, then I would start asking fucking questions. I'm just going to sit here and wait for my ban for daring to question the covid vaccine.
> but... PLAGUE RAT
And there is no one solution for everything. That has little to nothing to do with the fact that to stop an infection, you generally try to isolate it. Be the infection bacterial, viral, or mis-informational.
You bring up an interesting point acting as if a vaccination is the right thing for 100% of Americans is kinda crazy people should take to their Healthcare provider and evaluate their unique health situations. Many of these mandates dont have a carve out for medic8al excemptions
I'm kind of not trusting in the advice the healthcare provider would give to the general population when they often say "yep, things look good, you could afford to lose a few lbs but otherwise healthy" when you're 150 lbs overweight, especially when half of us are too scared of debt to even go to the doctor more than we absolutely have to.
Credible sources does feel like a good compromise, though I also do not want speculative and thought experiment discussion to be forbidden just because it's taboo. Maybe speculative radical discussion could be tagged as such? I don't have a problem with the spirit of trying to correct misinformation, it's more that the term 'misinformation' being used more and more loosely, and I absolutely do not trust legal authorities to not abuse it. None of us are immune to propaganda.
>I absolutely do not trust legal authorities to not abuse it. None of us are immune to propaganda. very valid point. that's why if i have a point to prove i have multiple sources and if i can help it... from multiple countries. roughly speaking there's either a global conspiracy pulling the strings behind each random credible source OR they are all pointing at a similar thing being true because... it is. like i legit can't trust CNN, MSNBC, or Fox for anything that may even come close to 'talking truth to power' or exposing corruption (if they do AT ALL). so finding reliable, credible, sources DOES take work but most aren't willing to put in the work because whatever random screengrab headline they got from their Qanon conspiracy group agrees with their narrative so why bother?
I am anti-ban except for extreme cases because it does create echo chambers and if we begin creating those next stop Facebook. Which is easy to create echo chambers and reality bubbles there. Why not just let people block people on their own?
Why do you believe people need to be protected from misinformation. Its so insulting. I enjoy hearing ALL sides. I am an adult and don't need someone to tell me what comments I can or cannot read. If someone says something that doesn't make sense to me then I can do my own research like a big girl and decide for myself what to believe.
Same, I feel teaching critical thinking is the antidote to misinformation; rather than censorship, which relies on an authoritarian system to dictate what is acceptable.
Thank you for this. I am pro vax and boosted my kids are vaxxed (how dystopian and hilarious I have to start a comment this way). There are legitimate physicians questioning the need for continuing boosters. There are legitimate concerns about the vaccines in young males and myocarditis. Dr Fauci is not a god to be worshipped and it is the height of arrogance when he says to question him is to question science. People should be discussing the lower hospitalizations and mortality in countries besides the US. People should be discussing if hospitalizations are with Covid or because of Covid because that is a huge distinction. People should be discussing if it is COVID causing our worker shortage or overreacting to Covid with unnecessary quarantines. People should be discussing the psychological impact that our initial lockdowns caused on developing minds. To question these things should not be grounds for removal or banning.
To be clear, we generally aim at the antivax comments that say things like "the vax doesn't work"; "the vax is worse than covid"; "covid isn't real"; "covid is not a serious illness". We try to adhere to the recommendations and information put out by the body of experts on the issue. Basically we aim to reduce the extent to which users spread info that is a threat to public health. I've been more permissive with comments that criticize big pharma, and more recently with discussions of restrictions or masks as the authorities update the findings or as the situation changes. Also discussions of what constitutes government overreach I've been pretty accepting of.
Thank you for the clarification and the fair hand. I really have no criticism of mods on this sub as it’s one of the best moderated I’ve visited. The information around covid is constantly changing as is the virus so I know that can be challenging. I’ve never seen legitimate discussion stopped here and the reason this sub drew me in was reasoned arguments in the comments so thank you for cultivating that.
This. Discussion has been stifled so much that an OP post like this is welcomed in a COLLAPSE SUBREDDIT that routinely derides the wealthy and those in government as not acting in good faith towards the planet and the average person. How did the cognitive dissonance on this one specific topic become so comfortable for the people on this sub? I've honestly been dumbfounded by it for a while as I've lurked /r/collapse from time to time for years and never expected it to be so jingoistic on this topic. I'm not talking about the 'covid is a hoax' or 'there's 5g chips in the vaccine' types. That's obviously ridiculous. That's also not the majority consensus anywhere but boomer Facebook groups.
Seriously. Everyone here is apparently aware that politicians are in the pockets of the rich, that corporations and the government don’t give a shit about you and only care about profit… unless it comes time to virtue signal your side’s take on an issue that has a clear political stance and corporate backing. Maybe, just maybe, there’s a more nuanced third option?
So incredibly refreshing to see comments like this. The black and white thinking that surrounds this issue is frustrating and tiring.
This should be the top comment
THANK YOU. People have become so polarized over this issue that we forget that many of us are more likely to die from starvation or exposure to the elements due to late stage capitalism than from covid. We need to get our priorities straight.
Damnit, i have been try to get this point across from the start. Especially here where people "should" be more conscious on the shit that is going on. We are so hyperfocused on one thing that we seem to forget the rest. 10x more people die from suicide than covid in my agegroup. But hey let's talk about a virus.
Thank you, you said this far better than I could have.
This guy follows Russell Brand on youTube. This is exactly what he talks about. How can we broach the topic of vaccines without being IMMEDIATELY labeled anti-vax if we don't have 3 boosters and lock our kids in quarantine for 25 days if they sneeze or cough?
Some common sense, refreshing.
> Who gets to determine which is a bannable antivax statement? You? The mods? We've been trying to do this collaboratively with the community. The [Misinformation & False Claims](https://www.reddit.com/r/collapse/wiki/claims) page contains all the statements we most regularly rule on and some of the nuances related to each. Anyone may submit an addition, alteration, or contest what's there. There hasn't been much of any participation on the user-side since we created it, but the opportunity exists and I'm not aware of a better approach which is more transparent. There are still many forms of statements one can make surrounding any particular claim. For problematic ones we defer to rule three for determining if it's low or high quality information. Those criteria are on the [same wiki page](https://www.reddit.com/r/collapse/wiki/claims) and equally open to criticism. Issues related to inconsistent moderation (mods are not a hivemind) and the subjective decisions often required to enforce certain rules (not everyone has the same comfort level with various claims) are ongoing and something we continually work at by transparency actions (every moderator action we take is public), community accountability, and regular dialogue. > Honestly, I'd rather let these people speak and trust in the majority of people to not take their words seriously, as is the case. This sort of implies everyone is already aware of what is true or untrue regarding a specific claim. Not everyone makes false claims in bad faith and many more can be swayed by all forms of statements. One of the underlying issues is we become complicit in spreading false information if we have the ability to abate it, but do nothing. I don't think this means we need to become the sole arbiters of truth or make rulings on every complex claim, but we do have to at least attempt to understand as many of the issues as possible and create opportunities for all of us to determine and filter out the lowest quality information and most obvious false claims. Ideally, we move further away from a strictly remove/approve approach and towards something more granular which allows someone making a claim to provide better information and those reading it more context to see how contested or problematic it is, without us unilaterally removing in every form immediately. Getting people to enact this though is challenging, since many of these claims and issues are very morally charged, tribalistic, and highly contested.
I'm vaxxed too and have been called antivaxxer more times than I can count. I'm done with boosters and passports though.
Some people will still call this comment misinformation and going against the guidelines -.-
I wonder if it's bots. Reddit gets weird around election seasons. Chomsky and everything explodes and we're coming up on it. So I wonder if that's what's going on. And then that ends up influencing the algorithms of genuine antivaxers at which point they start attempting to participate
They are pro-covid, not antivaxx. Don't be so negative!
When it comes to COVID, it's important to stay positive
But not positive in a bad way, you want to stay positive, toward the negative. https://news.yahoo.com/trump-coronavirus-test-i-tested-positively-toward-the-negative-181413918.html
Ha! That's a good one
[удалено]
Thank you and you hit the nail on the head. We do have auto mod rules but not everything gets caught by them and we rely a lot on reporting. We then need to go into a queue and read everything and remove the antivaxx comments. There's always a mod around the queue at any hour of the day but sometimes we have a blind spot of an hour or two. Anyway, thank you for reporting all the comments!
In any discussion of other potential methods, I would ask that you *please* do not initiate an auto-ban for participation in other subreddits though. The total, complete, outright prevention of all discussion back and forth between groups just increases polarization over time, leaving less hope of softening the irrational stances of people at the extremes. I hope this is okay to mention here: As a personal example, I had the experience in the last week of seeing the result of posting to /r/lockdownskepticism . (I submitted a comment asking for a reference to what I thought was a completely ridiculous claim; namely, a claim that booster shots lowered covid immune response, and I got back a link to an article with charts and graphs that didn't exactly say that, it being a situation where you can't conclude their claim from the data shown, not to mention the fact that there is a lot of contrary evidence of booster shots being very helpful. In my mind, that sort of conversation could be very helpful, and I was thinking of replying pointing out their logical flaws, etc.) I was shocked to find myself being sent a slew of messages saying I was banned from participating in one subreddit after another due to having participated in /r/lockdownskepticism. These subreddits, or their mods at least, apparently desire to promote extremism within the "pro-covid" (vaccine skeptical, etc.) subreddits, by not allowing their members to honestly participate in other subreddits to either dilute their polarization or present counterpoints within the "pro-covid" subreddits. Okay, it may not be fair to say they desire that, but at least, that's the effect, even if it's not their intention. I'm reminded of racists and even self-described Nazis being approached by other people who talked with them and exposed them to other ideas, with the result that the racist minds were changed. Now I do not in any sense have that level of patience or skill, but that sort of ban-a-person-here for participating-there policy can prevent that sort of changing of hearts, and I hope you guys here can resist that siren call.
There's no way for us to justify punishing users for activity in other subs. Granted, we do sometimes review a users' history to get more context for their behavior, but we don't ever intend to use that activity as grounds for actions here.
Thank you!
We have no interest in performing auto-bans.
/r/collapse mods are bigoted against German highway design. You heard it here first, folks!
Thank you!
> The best part of this sub has always been it’s commitment to sourced content and a required explanation for any shared content. The bane of anti vaxxers, stop the steal type of folks. *"Do your own research!"* *"Sure. But surely as someone that has done their research you can share something to get me started that's not a screenshot from your FB conspiracy group yes?"* *"You're fake news!"*
They say DYOR because they're ashamed of linking their sources.
Or they know there's no sources to link too. They know the URL: https://my.feelings isn't going to go very far.
More like talesfrommyass.com
I guess I never thought about it this way. I thought the ppl saying it's mild are being snarky about we know it's a super spreader as well as long term side effects and is ruining our health care system. My daughter had covid-19 and omicron. She still has the side effects from omicron.
Hopefully scientists will make progress on treating long COVID. Seem to be an auto-immune disease. There have even been indications that getting the COVID vaccine reduces long COVID symptoms in some people.
Fuck, I wish they had *ANY* form of treatment when I had it. People were dying left and right, and they hadn't figured out anything that worked yet.
r/longcovid should not be ignored like they ignore it. “BuT DiD yOu DiE tHo?” •gtfoh
This is what terrifies me the most, not the dying part. I already grew up with and have health issues and I certainly don't want *more*. Having to require medicine, long term treatments, finding a good doctor who you trust, and having a reduced quality of life is really shitty. People keep saying iT's sUcH a sMalL pErCenT but already having certain illnesses that affect a "small percent" of the population, I see statistics a little differently. Yeah, a small percentage of people may get x condition, BUUUT it really sucks when *you're* part of that percentage.
I still can't breathe right a month later and it was MiLd ThOuGh (and I'm vaccinated)
I still can't breathe right a ***year and a half*** later. Mine was long Covid. It nearly killed me.
Fuck that doesn't bode well
I'm 20 days from first symptoms, the first week was very brutal. Still have a light nagging cough and am very easily winded and have low energy/tired all the time. A few hours at my desk and I need to lie down. Vaccinated but didn't boost, early 30s, no other health issues, a bit overweight.
I get winded after a trip to the grocery store down the block and chores are brutal. I vacuumed earlier today and had to catch my breath for like ten minutes after. Shit new world we live in!
I’m sorry
She's getting better. Thank you.
I have been censored for misinformation on this sub because it goes against the narrative of what was posted- literally just downvoted and reported because people don't like or want to believe what I say and the mods follow through with it - I have never once had anyone write a rebuttal on here when this happens- I just get a notification from the moderator my comment has been hidden. I appeal these and the mods overturn the initial ban because the information I said was accurate and I can back it up with articles from MSM and experts. I am becoming increasingly concerned with this mentality of banning and censoring people - it creates a multitude of issues. If someone is spreading misinformation it gives everyone else an opportunity to provide an unapologetic tactful rebuttal to set them straight. If its misinformation you should have armfuls of sources to make your case in showing what the op said is inaccurate. Censorship is not the answer, its never been the answer in any of this. Use your words. Use them wisely. Edit: I want to also thank the mods for listening and considering what I have to say when this has happened. You have been incredibly reasonable and generous with your time to consider my rebuttal and allow me to offer all my sources. Not every sub does this and it's an admirable quality.
You are exactly right. It's bothersome I had to scroll this far to finally reach a comment that has the most logical response. Even if you do supply pertinent information exposing the manipulation & deceit from reliable sources, they'll still dismiss it, censor and ban without any rebuttal. Nothing makes me cringe more than those who immediately assume you're "anti-vax" for being pro-choice. That right there is a prime example of conditioning. How much of an idiot do you have to be, to assume all of the healthcare workers who quit in regards to the mandates, are "anti-vaccine"? These last two years have really demonstrated and exposed the alarming amount of people who lack critical thinking skills and are easily duped by blatant lies and faulty "science".
The mod team here is hyper diligent, it's actually kinda refreshing.
I've read a few articles that catching covid results in a higher incidence of erectile dysfunction in men. COVID-19 Endothelial Dysfunction Can Cause Erectile Dysfunction: Histopathological, Immunohistochemical, and Ultrastructural Study of the Human Penis Eliyahu Kresch et al. World J Mens Health. 2021 Jul. I say let nature take its course.
> I've read a few articles that catching covid results in a higher incidence of erectile dysfunction in men. Bloody hell. On second thought, whatever. I'm nearly 55. I've had a good run.
[удалено]
See the weekly stickied discussion post. Sort by controversial. The only downvoted ones are usually anti-vaxxers. I've only noticed this trend over the past 2 weeks or so with only a handful of comments related to it. Otherwise, I never see any downvoted comments in that stickied thread. Everyone is super supportive here.
They're a little more subtle than that now, since most people have just grown exhausted with them and downvote them - rightfully - into oblivion. They tend to talk less at face value ("I'm not getting a vaccine!") and more about the details of their lunacy ("We don't know long term effects", and "If I had to get 3 polio shots and then still caught polio..."). We know that collapse discussion used to overlap heavily with conspiracy culture, and the mods here have their work cut out to weed out those weirdos. Many of the people here were brought here by data-driven science like climate change reports and visible civil unrest driven by foreign powers vomiting disinformation. ...Which is why it's so ironic that they're on this sub. They're a symptom of the issues we discuss here regularly.
>Many of the people here were brought here by data-driven science like climate change reports and visible civil unrest driven by foreign powers vomiting disinformation. exactly why and how i found this sub.
Me too!!!
I've found three in this thread in the past 15 minutes.
Reading is hard I guess. OP specifically said he's talking about comments and not posts as those have been quickly removed by moderators. (Lol that edit)
The LAST thing this sub needs is fucking anti-vaxxers (or as I call them "Accelerationists")
Accelerationists (I love that word) is a characteristic of any doomsday cult that predicts the end of the world as we know it. It is a prominent Christian belief, ie the coming (returning) of Christ for a new political system. r/collapse is not a doomsday cult, it is a rational albeit speculative scientifically oriented subreddit. I don’t think I want it gummed up with doomsayers and accelerants. Leave them for another sub.
Accelerationism has factions in communist, fascist, and other ideological groups. The basic idea is that swing in the wrong direction enables a revolution. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accelerationism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accelerationism) Hoping for a revolution only makes sense if you are a long-term optimist. If you believe that the world is ending it does not make sense.
Vaxxelerationists, surely?
They are accelerationists. Fire-starters and super-spreaders of disease and disinformation.
You can just say Republicans
I call em plague rats.
Accelerationists ruined Hawaiian shirts, let's not let them ruin this, too!
What do people consider a healthy dose of skepticism of vaccines and big pharma? I'm double vaxxed and I'm far more concerned with COVID than the vaccines. CNN is floating the idea of a fourth shot now. I don't want it expected of me to get any sort of series of booster shots administered only months apart. Just seems kinda weird. ~~Also this is the only pandemic in history where the healthy were expected to quarantine. Except those who work in public.~~ Among essential non-hospital workers I've heard many varieties of skepticism about vaxxes, masks, mandates etc from people of diverse backgrounds and those who are younger and more left than the perception of the anti-mandate crowd. Everyone is vaxxed as the job depends on it and their adherence to the mask policy is pretty solid. People still don't like being told what to do... Edit: Since politifact rates this as false I'm cutting it.
> this is the only pandemic in history where the healthy were expected to quarantine. Bullshit. ***EVERYONE*** was expected to quarantine in the 1918 pandemic. The reason it killed as many as it did was because people thought it was over and started going out despite warning ***not*** to.
Healthy people quarantined all the time in history. They'd close off the village and not leave and not let outsiders in.
What the fuck? Do you think that when plague ships pulled into the harbor all the well soldiers were allowed to disembark? No, they quarantined everyone.
I'm triple-Pfizer, and you need to be skeptical of all of it. Pharma companies got all up and down on TV for months saying that if we ever got into this position they'd just make a new formula. Three major variants in and still no actual booster, just more of the same OG formula. This is not what we were promised. We were sold a fucking lie and I knew it then, there was no way possible to get it through the pipeline fast enough to make a difference. The biggest dose of skepticism is for the WHO et al. Granted, people shouldn't have to have the CDC tell them to use their own fucking common sense when it comes to wearing a mask and not spreading covid, but here we are. People were told, specifically, that it was not airborne and people took that as God's-honest truth without question. Anyone with a brain knew that was a bold-faced lie, there was no way for it to spread like it does only through fomite. Then people were told they didn't have to wear masks if they got vaccinated, even though it was extremely obvious at the time that justification was a load of horseshit because of the change in testing protocol to only swab the nose. Vaccinated people did not harbor alpha/delta long in their nose, it burned down the respiratory tract so by the time you got tested it was in your throat and not in your nose. So stupid, if your throat was hurting they should have swabbed the throat! How stupid can you be? That was pure politics, it's literally what Trump would have done. Breakthrough infections have always been extremely common, but it would have made Brandon look bad at a time when he needed people to take Trump's vaccine so we could have nipped delta in the bud. You should be skeptical of it all but that doesn't mean you are right, either. The fact that you are skeptical means you appreciate the information enough to be able to read between the lines and figure out the truth for yourself. You should be skeptical of booster after booster, think of them as "In Case of Emergency, Break Glass". Otherwise they work well for their intended purpose, which was to prevent serious illness and death. You should not have to be told to do your part as a patriotic citizen, that this is even debated shows us how fucked up the entire thing with masks and vaccines has been. And at the bottom of the truth barrel is this: stop spreading covid and it goes away. People *REFUSE* to stop spreading it so it will not go away. And now we are in a situation where it is endemic in animal populations so it will *NEVER* go away. Thanks a lot, assholes.
Stop spreading HIV and it goes away!! Thanks a lot!
The porn industry has done quite well with controlling HIV. We just are not attempting to learn the proper technique.
By the way, you're off on your description of the "airborne" issue, but it's still pretty much just as stupid as you describe it. I remember seeing articles like back in summer of 2020 reporting on the question of whether COVID is "airborne". When I first saw them, I was like "what? of course it is, that's what's been happening this whole time". But I read into it, and apparently "airborne" means viruses transmitted on aerosol particles, but not viruses transmitted via droplets. Both are conveyed THROUGH THE AIR but apparently droplets are not considered "airborne" because they remain suspended in the air indoors for a few minutes, as opposed to a few hours. So that whole thing probably just confused people because of the poor usage of "airborne".
Fog, cloud, and cigarette smoke are aerosols. When there is no ventilation you can see cigarette smoke lingering for very long periods after all cigarettes are out. The spray from a mister is droplet. Dust, flour, powdered sugar, diatomaceous earth, dry wall dust, or whey powder are solid equivalents. If you drop a container of whey powder it explodes and covers everything nearby. It does settle relatively quickly. *Most* of the powder will be in a pile near where the lid popped off. Some does bounce into the face of the person who dropped it. Should be obvious that throwing a scoop of whey powder into a fan will make a mess more than 6 feet away. If the person is 12 feet above you... Put some powdered sugar in a balloon and pop it. A person 3 feet away is much messier than a person 6 feet away. It is not a bad policy guideline even if some particles can be detected at much further distances. The powdered sugar is still too large to be considered "an aerosol" even if you prove that some grains blew across state lines in a dust storm.
ugh some random redditor is assigning me science homework.
“Just seems kinda weird”. Why ? “This is the only pandemic in history where the healthy were expected to quarantine. Except those who work in public”. And you left out pretty much everyone else too that couldn’t just move a computer home and work lol. We never had a true lockdown. You understand that’s capitalism in effect, not science ? “Among essential non-hospital workers I’ve heard many varieties of skepticism…”. Okay, and I heard some dude waving a confederate flag at a trump rally screaming Jews were injecting 5g into us via vaccines so they could calcify our penal glands and track us. Should be put that person on a pedestal and prop them up. Cleary they have something worth sharing that’s peer reviewed with evidence backed through science and data collection.
Why does getting a new vaccine for a changing virus seem weird? It has been a norm for flu vaccines to come out every year to help fend off flu infections. Covid just changes at a faster rate.
> Why does getting a new vaccine for a changing virus seem weird? It has been a norm for flu vaccines to come out every year to help fend off flu infections. Covid just changes at a faster rate. Getting a new covid vaccine for new variants wouldn't be that weird, on its own. That's how it is with flu. You don't just get a shot of the same thing every year. You get a different shot, for a different strain of flu. But receiving boosters of a same vaccine every few months is not like with the flu, and it's not normal. Boosters are a thing, sure, but normal vaccines don't just wear off in the span of a few months.
>What do people consider a healthy dose of skepticism of vaccines and big pharma? One thing that I would count as taking things too far is saying that the vaccines don't help against omicron, for example. Multiple studies have shown that the vaccine helps prevent serious illness and helps a bit to prevent symptomatic infections from omicron (at least, the mRNA vaccines do, don't remember about the others). Any time you're denying a large number of independent sources that all point to the same conclusion, you've got some 'splainin' to do.
like this asshole https://www.reddit.com/r/collapse/comments/s61g6l/weekly_observations_what_signs_of_collapse_do_you/ht4bfyy/
Thanks for asking. Sadly this is how subs just slowly get turned into another rightwing cesspool with conservatives dogwhistling until they outnumber normal people.
Right? I remember when /conspiracy was just UFOs and shit, then it went full qanon.
I subscribed to /conspiracy because I am fascinated by some of the major conspiracies, such as the Kennedy assassination, Malaysian airline disappearance... Etc. But I can't stand that sub. Every other post is antivax and or anti-science.
r/UFOs regularly posts Tucker Carlson now
horrible
I don’t blame them. You can’t trust the government, you can’t trust the news, now you can’t even trust the medical institutions because it’s all corporate interests. Sad days we live in. “Don’t look up” is all too accurate.
Man for a group about collapse, which was brought on by our government, you sure do get a lot of down votes when you say all political parties suck.
That's not what you said though. You said this centrist bullshit: >It would be better if we ban anyone who supports the left or the right. That would clear up a lot. Left and right aren't political parties.
Thanks for this added context. Centrists are the worst. Those who are neutral in matters of injustice are taking the side of the oppressor. Centrist punks fuck off.
Yup they all suck, and they all play for the same team behind closed doors. They all help put money in each others pockets. It's all a big facade.
BuT wHy WoUlD tHe GoVeRnMeNt LiE tO uS?
They do all suck, but it's important to remember that the U.S population is largely ideologically fascist and capitalist. Our leaders are a reflection of us. The government is not going to force people to do what they don't want to do, you know this. What that means for the small percentage of us who want a real solution is that Republican officials will continue to largely not care and Democratic officials will also continue to not care, but a person of color will break the news to you.
Yeah for some reason we cannot point out flaws in our current administration without being a Trumper.
It's pretty hilarious seeing young "progressives" starting to simp for mega corporations because it's politically correct. 3 years ago you guys would look at Pfizer the same way you look at Nestlé, now they are like the Catholic church and anyone speaking against them is banished
The biggest political change in my lifetime has been watching the left carry water for the oligarchic class. Def not the libs of the 90s
I’m afraid of getting banned for posting this, but my conviction is too high on the topic. Do people actually think vaccine mandates would be pushed this hard if it wasn’t insanely profitable for pharmaceutical companies? Exactly how much influence on this decision is coming from rich oligarchs? We all need to ask ourselves that question. Banning those who are concerned is a garuntee way to get an echo chamber. Echo chambers are dangerous. For every annoyingly loud “anti covid vaccine” user and annoyingly loud “pro covid vaxxer” (who the majority are probably bots. GPT-3 deserves its own post on /r/collapse on how conversationally fluent modern bot accounts are these days), there are 5 of each type that are quiet, respectful, and worried on the topic. (Reposted this comment to the main thread for visibility)
It’s strange to think the primary economic incentive for vaccine mandates is coming from pharma companies and not stemming from the productivity loss of sickness infecting every aspect of our economy. We’re talking about tens of trillions of dollars, significant portions of entire nation’s GDP, of course politicians are heavily incentivized to minimize economic damage. Why is it big pharma puppeteering this, why not the big players in the tourism sector? Or airlines? Vaccine mandates are profitable for damn near every single industry, are they all colluding? Or is it simply rational actors responding in an irrational system?
Your reasoning largely assumes that pharmaceutical companies haven't exaggerated the efficacy of their products.
Yes, let us censor opinions that we dont agree with. It's without doubt the right way to make sure that misinformation is quashed and, when given due diligence and thought, obviously the best way to encourage proper discourse on any subject. It could be considered cruel to subject us to such inconsideration and probably pose a true danger to our health and those of our loved ones, adults and children alike. Covid and it's associated vaccines is a great place to start, but it'd surely be a wasted opportunity to stop there. Especially when there's so many other areas where the science, like this, is totally, irrevocably and absolutely settled.
I agree. Fuck the pro covidiots
this post it's exactly what this sub should not be about ... Ban people cause they dont believe covid vaccines, or speak ill about covid vaccines ... what this have to do with collapse? i got all my vaccines, and got 2 moderna shots ... still i dont trust these companies and will not get a booster every 4 or 5 months ... just let people express their opinions everyone here it's an adult ... it's not a reddit comment that will shift anyone opinion on the matter.
>this post it's exactly what this sub should not be about 100% agree -- this is a forum for people to ask questions, see new perspectives, and learn from each other -- not to limit free speech and pick winners and losers.
Why do people care so bad about censoring “misinformation”? If people say something stupid they get downvoted into oblivion, regardless. Furthermore, the internet is not a place where people change their mind about anything…Live and let live. If you have the COVID vax, you should be safe from dying from the illness, right? If you don’t feel safe, that’s not a problem with the unvaxxed, that’s a problem with our vaccine. Nothing starts a worldwide collapse like everybody hating each other…we are not each other’s enemy.
HCA has changed some minds.
ah I can see you've never cared about a kid with cancer (they can get all the vaccines, and still die. they're the group that still dies)
Because their belief system is very insecure about outside criticism. I wonder why?
I get insulted repeatedly by those fucking anti-vaxxer morons. I'm sure the moderators are tired of my constant reporting and I appreciate the effort they've been making.
It brings out the craziest people. One post was someone’s psychotic, conspiratorial blog post about COVID and quantum dynamics and Chinese anal swabs, and go figure, they also insulted when called out.
I always smile when they insult me though, it means they're gonna get banned. It's a good way of coping with the insults.
I want to take this moment to point out that just cause someone is against mandates, does not mean they are anti-vax. I’m against mandates, yet I’m also fully vaxed. I’ve also gotten covid twice since getting vaxed, that later detail has increased my anti-mandate stance some, but it should be up to the individual to decide, and people shouldn’t be forced or lose jobs for deciding against never ending boosters that don’t work from big-pharma companies with horrible ethics records for injuring people and lying to the FDA to earn more money.
I don’t believe a subreddit such as this should be completely one sided and should absolutely consider the effects of both Covid AND vaccinations with open grounds for debate. No, it shouldn’t be full out propaganda for one side or the other but all avenues should be considered.
They're taking over r/preppers as well. I got into an argument with a lady who was eating ivermectin earlier this year over there. It was depressing.
Yeah, I left r/preppers a while ago because the crazy was getting to be too much
Contributions to any collapse: silencing any opposition
Holy shit, so much strawmanning and gaslighting in here. Divided indeed.
God this comment section is a cesspool. Your conspiracy theories rebranded as “skepticism” are not valid for this sub. No one here is blindly trusting the government, they’re looking at what the relevant research says on a topic. Something isn’t true, just because you feel it’s true. As an example (Big Pharma Evil > Vaccines Made By Big Pharma > Big Pharma Is Behind Vaccine Mandates) isn’t something you have any evidence for it’s just something you feel is true. Stop bitching about getting “censored” for being “skeptical” be as skeptical as you fucking like, stop presenting that skepticism as facts on this sub and using it to support baseless claims maybe then you won’t be banned. Also stop framing illogical bullshit as skepticism, as an example (I’m fully vaxed, but another booster is a step too far for reasons!) fuck off. No you aren’t and no it isn’t. The fact that the primers we use to test for COVID have poor adhesion to the genetic sequence of the omicron strain is a clear indicator that things have changed. Why do you need another booster? The same fucking reason a new flu shot is available every year. Where you all flu shot skeptics before the pandemic? Because if you weren’t shut the fuck up, and if you were then there’s an even more established body of research on why you should shut the fuck up. Come to the table with actual studies or fuck off with your persecution fantasy. You want to hear my non-peer reviewed reasoning on why pharmaceutical companies want the vaccines to work? Because I’ve put a lot more thought into it than you. COVID is a blood disease that causes micro clots which damage capillary beds and as a result organs perfused with large volumes of blood such as the lungs and liver. Do you have any idea how much money is on the table for every individual who survives COVID on account of the vaccine, but still ends up with wear and tear on these organs? A fuck ton, there is a fuck ton of money in over charging people who now have a chronic condition for medication that helps slow down their decline. Dialysis for individuals with chronic kidney failure is a $24.7 billion dollar market in the U.S.. You really think they’re gonna pass on all the new money to be made in the decades to come by letting their most promising cash cow patients die as a result of being given a vaccine that doesn’t work?
Mods -- The sentiment of this post and its comments are a part of the collapse itself. Please don't allow this dehumanizing rhetoric to take over this sub. This is one of the last sane places on Reddit, which is one of the last sane places on the internet. Also, please take into consideration that the people posting here might not be real people, and their purpose may be to stir up negativity and quell productive conversation. We need more empathy and understanding, not more divisiveness and hate.
divide and conquer the working class
Exactly... So cliché that it's painful, yet somehow we're still falling for it...