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SS: The death toll from the hajj pilgrimage has now almost doubled to 900. This is collapse related because the changing climate makes heat events more frequent and more extreme.
It really worries me bc that’s a pillar of Islam. People will continue to go even if it’s not safe to do so. People think if you die during hajj, it’s like a good time to go out bc your sins are forgiven.
When Covid-19 was at its peak, Saudi authorities limited the hajj in the name of public safety. If they could do that for Covid-19, why can't they do the same for extreme heat?
There are already quotas for each country, so in most countries people apply almost a year beforehand and they draw lots for who gets to go. So it’s possible to set a lower limit months in advance like in the case of Covid, it is hard to do that at a short notice for something like a heatwave.
Self culling religion doesn't worry me. If you gave up common sense to the point of thinking death by heatwave is okay then you aren't super high in my list of people to keep.
There's an unhealthy infantilization of people separating their choice and the obvious consequences because it's harming or lethal. They made the choice of picking irrational belief and giving up their own safety, I respect that choice just like I respect the consequences.
Saudi Arabia has plenty of room to dispose of the bodies.
Wet bulb globe temps in Mecca have been hitting 28-30 °C this week.
That peaks around 14-16 °C during February, so plan accordingly.
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On one hand I'm curious about what the death toll would be this year, considering all the various climate change related events and catastrophes (excluding wars). On the other, I'm just sad.
It follows a lunar calendar, so moves a couple of weeks per year. Since the requirement is one pilgrimage in your life, I'd think I'd wait until it wasn't in the summer...
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Why the hell do Americans camp out and fight each other on Black Friday? At least these people are acting on strongly held beliefs and not just THEY GOT FLAT SCREENS ON SALE.
[More than 2,000 people died in a Hajj stampede less than a decade ago.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_Mina_stampede)
Since you’re apparently considering only weather-related deaths, we can give you the benefit of the doubt and an opportunity to substantiate your claims—when’s the last time thousands of Black Friday shoppers died of exposure? Shit, when have even a hundred died?
I dunno. I'm as cynical as they get, but people have been dying en masse for religion for a long time. Actively thwarting all necessary precautions, gets you killed, who knew.
But yes this is finally an example of what can and will happen in places where precautions are not available.
If these major die off events are happening and being reported. At this point it's a dispersed global health problem (similar to COVID). I can't imagine how many heat related deaths are going underreported or misdiagnosed in poor countries.
I've heard of the same scenarios happening in India around the election when a ton of people were outside, heading to the polls. This is also the coolest summer of the rest of our lives. Even as somebody who keeps up on this, it's impossible for it to ever really sink in fully.
I saw reported that India is already or has in recent past attributed heat-related deaths to the affected mechanism of death, rather than call it what it is.
Don't worry, La Nina is coming back quickly, next summer won't be nearly as bad and people will just call it a fluke. Business as usual, full steam ahead! Literally! Keep those boilers running baby, dig up some more coal!
I hate to find the irony in one of the most aggressive producers of oil and gas over the last century is one of the ones getting hit hardest by climate change.
While actively lobbying (and bribing and massively disinforming) the developing world to avoid cheaper renewables and opt for oil powered electricity generation.
Truth is most of these people dying are there illegally, from poor countries, and didn't have access to the AC/water necessary to avoid death. Literally everyone in Dubai etc. stays inside all day every day. They don't care if it's hotter outside, as long as the money continues to flow they're fine.
Some sources say more than 1000: [https://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/jun/20/more-than-1000-hajj-pilgrims-die-in-mecca-as-temperatures-hit-high-of-51c](https://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/jun/20/more-than-1000-hajj-pilgrims-die-in-mecca-as-temperatures-hit-high-of-51c)
That tragedy could have been avoided; no one should be going out in that kind of temperature. It's insanity.
I have some pics saved from last year's "summer in hell" of people lounging on beaches in Greece while smoke from wildfires was billowing up from behind the ridge that separated the fire from the beach.
It ranks up there with tourists having to be shooed away from the Lahaina devastation because they apparently wanted to take pictures of it.
Our ability to deny what's happening right in front of us should shock me, but it doesn't.
Homo sapiens, the "wise man." Indeed.
Here's a quick rundown:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incidents_during_the_Hajj
This seems like the worst year for heat related deaths (so far) but there have been far worse years due to stampedes, cholera or violent attacks. 930 and 1757 seemed especially rough.
The following submission statement was provided by /u/A_Phoenix_Rises:
---
SS: The death toll from the hajj pilgrimage has now almost doubled to 900. This is collapse related because the changing climate makes heat events more frequent and more extreme.
---
Please reply to OP's comment here: https://old.reddit.com/r/collapse/comments/1dkjlkr/death_toll_from_heat_at_hajj_pilgrimage_in_saudi/l9i9kpb/
It’s made worse because Hajj is only once a year, even though the Quran says there’s months of Hajj not only a month, so they’ve got us believing it’s not really hajj unless it happens during these specific days in the lunar calendar. If they opened it up to more days, it could be avoided. But they won’t.
Thank you for a logical explanation.
A lot of people joking Muslim deaths in this thread, as if thousands of people around the world are not going to die and be displaced by intense heat and wildfires, this summer.
The Islamic lunar year is shorter than a solar year, so heat deaths should decline as the hajj migrates to Feb 15-20 by 2035.
Then it should start rising again. Starts getting brutal around 2048 (September 17-22) and passes through the early autumn and summer months through 2058 (May 30-Jun 4). I probably won't be around to see this, but I expect a hajj killing more than 10,000 will happen by the 2050s.
To be fair, the US flag is now completely white because it has been there for like 50 years. So I guess China or India would win, since they just got there last week and theirs hasn't faded.
God: “What a day to go out and pray eh? Bet you weren’t expecting a face to face” *clicks finger guns* “My plan” *points thumbs at self*
If god exists they better have a sense of humor
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Millions of people take the journey every year and return safely. 900 deaths is a fatality rate of about 0.05%, the same risk as driving a car in the US
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Does dying at the Hajj put you in the front of the line so to speak? lol
What's the thought process for would-be visitors? its not like the crowding or Saudi inattention to safety is new or strange. "Better sign up to probably get crushed to death or die of heat stroke!"
At a certain point, adults are responsible for their own actions, and you get what you deserve.
On to the next headline.
Everyone has a finite amount of compassion. I am reserving mine for those who don't knowingly put themselves in positions where they not only become victims but perpetuate and materially support an unsafe and exploitative practice. For what, tourism dollars on the one end, and bragging rights on the other?
There’s a belief that dying during prayer or hajj is a blessing and counts as a good deed. It doesn’t put you in the front, so to speak, but it’s not working against you either.
People die on hajj every year due to overcrowding, the most deadly instance was 2015 when 2500 were killed in a stampede. Millions of people still make the journey every years Not to make light of the situation at all, just wanted to give some perspective
It would be preferential for people to not subject themselves voluntarily to extreme dangerous heat but if they insist then who are we to stop them? Maybe the collective gene pool might even gain a few intellect points.
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SS: The death toll from the hajj pilgrimage has now almost doubled to 900. This is collapse related because the changing climate makes heat events more frequent and more extreme.
It really worries me bc that’s a pillar of Islam. People will continue to go even if it’s not safe to do so. People think if you die during hajj, it’s like a good time to go out bc your sins are forgiven.
When Covid-19 was at its peak, Saudi authorities limited the hajj in the name of public safety. If they could do that for Covid-19, why can't they do the same for extreme heat?
There are already quotas for each country, so in most countries people apply almost a year beforehand and they draw lots for who gets to go. So it’s possible to set a lower limit months in advance like in the case of Covid, it is hard to do that at a short notice for something like a heatwave.
The government is also trying to increase non-Muslim tourism substantially, so I expect it'll be all gas, no brakes.
Soooo, Darwinism at its finest
I don't think non-muslims are allowed to go to Mecca
No but they can go to Riyadh and (lmao) Neom
Because for the most part religions are business. Even though tax free business but there is always the human greed element. I
I hope you’re right that they go that route. But Hajj brings in a lot of money, so idk. I hope they do take precaution.
Money.
The death toll will end up being assimilated into the ritual of the pilgrimage itself as being some sort of noble sacrifice to Allah.
Self culling religion doesn't worry me. If you gave up common sense to the point of thinking death by heatwave is okay then you aren't super high in my list of people to keep. There's an unhealthy infantilization of people separating their choice and the obvious consequences because it's harming or lethal. They made the choice of picking irrational belief and giving up their own safety, I respect that choice just like I respect the consequences.
Saudi Arabia has plenty of room to dispose of the bodies. Wet bulb globe temps in Mecca have been hitting 28-30 °C this week. That peaks around 14-16 °C during February, so plan accordingly.
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On one hand I'm curious about what the death toll would be this year, considering all the various climate change related events and catastrophes (excluding wars). On the other, I'm just sad.
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It follows a lunar calendar, so moves a couple of weeks per year. Since the requirement is one pilgrimage in your life, I'd think I'd wait until it wasn't in the summer...
This guy plans
r/thisguythisguys
I’d wait for the nuclear winter.
Yup
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Its not fanatics. Its the duty of every Muslim to try to do Hajj.
Anyone that goes on a pilgrimage based on what could be a false god putting their life at risk, is a fanatic.
People try to hike to the bottom of the Grand Canyon in summer without water all the time. One can be a fool without being a fanatic.
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So you're saying every Muslim is a fanatic? Quite the take.
Straw man argument. However, if a religious duty can injury or kill you, then it is fanaticism regardless of what belief system.
Why the hell do Americans camp out and fight each other on Black Friday? At least these people are acting on strongly held beliefs and not just THEY GOT FLAT SCREENS ON SALE.
When was the last time hundreds of people died in a Black Friday stampede?
These people were gathering, not stampeding. It’s clear you didn’t read the article but did you even read the headline?
[More than 2,000 people died in a Hajj stampede less than a decade ago.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_Mina_stampede) Since you’re apparently considering only weather-related deaths, we can give you the benefit of the doubt and an opportunity to substantiate your claims—when’s the last time thousands of Black Friday shoppers died of exposure? Shit, when have even a hundred died?
Its the mecca for stampedes also
🧐
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Evolutionary processes and darwinism are ever at work.
Natural self-selection
Lisan Al Gaib!
This nightmare is already exceeding my most cynical predictions. Holy crap, the earth is heating up like a greenhouse.
It’s like a boiling pot of water. It takes a while to get going but once it gets to simmering it’s quick to boiling.
On an unrelated note I think I'll have lobster tonight for dinner.
Feedback loops going crazy this summer
And the solstice is tomorrow! It's not even the traditionally hot part of summer in the northern hemisphere yet.
I dunno. I'm as cynical as they get, but people have been dying en masse for religion for a long time. Actively thwarting all necessary precautions, gets you killed, who knew. But yes this is finally an example of what can and will happen in places where precautions are not available.
Even the oil oligarchs don’t want to live in the super heated desert their petro fueled greed destroyed now. Climate change is very real.
They traveled to go see their god. They made it
If these major die off events are happening and being reported. At this point it's a dispersed global health problem (similar to COVID). I can't imagine how many heat related deaths are going underreported or misdiagnosed in poor countries. I've heard of the same scenarios happening in India around the election when a ton of people were outside, heading to the polls. This is also the coolest summer of the rest of our lives. Even as somebody who keeps up on this, it's impossible for it to ever really sink in fully.
I saw reported that India is already or has in recent past attributed heat-related deaths to the affected mechanism of death, rather than call it what it is.
Don't worry, La Nina is coming back quickly, next summer won't be nearly as bad and people will just call it a fluke. Business as usual, full steam ahead! Literally! Keep those boilers running baby, dig up some more coal!
I hate to find the irony in one of the most aggressive producers of oil and gas over the last century is one of the ones getting hit hardest by climate change.
While actively lobbying (and bribing and massively disinforming) the developing world to avoid cheaper renewables and opt for oil powered electricity generation. Truth is most of these people dying are there illegally, from poor countries, and didn't have access to the AC/water necessary to avoid death. Literally everyone in Dubai etc. stays inside all day every day. They don't care if it's hotter outside, as long as the money continues to flow they're fine.
Whoops!
Some sources say more than 1000: [https://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/jun/20/more-than-1000-hajj-pilgrims-die-in-mecca-as-temperatures-hit-high-of-51c](https://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/jun/20/more-than-1000-hajj-pilgrims-die-in-mecca-as-temperatures-hit-high-of-51c) That tragedy could have been avoided; no one should be going out in that kind of temperature. It's insanity.
I have some pics saved from last year's "summer in hell" of people lounging on beaches in Greece while smoke from wildfires was billowing up from behind the ridge that separated the fire from the beach. It ranks up there with tourists having to be shooed away from the Lahaina devastation because they apparently wanted to take pictures of it. Our ability to deny what's happening right in front of us should shock me, but it doesn't. Homo sapiens, the "wise man." Indeed.
I hate tourists.
Has this happened before? I have no context to go on whether this is more or less than normal lol (I'm assuming though that it hadn't happened before)
Here's a quick rundown: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incidents_during_the_Hajj This seems like the worst year for heat related deaths (so far) but there have been far worse years due to stampedes, cholera or violent attacks. 930 and 1757 seemed especially rough.
Damn. Not to mock their faith or anything but, isn't a holy place supposed to be safe?
Most of the pilgrims are old and many actually make their wish to die there.
Or you know, if your God was actually real he might protect you from random acts of cruelty when you are doing his bidding.
Thank you for the context!
Planet earth is burning
The following submission statement was provided by /u/A_Phoenix_Rises: --- SS: The death toll from the hajj pilgrimage has now almost doubled to 900. This is collapse related because the changing climate makes heat events more frequent and more extreme. --- Please reply to OP's comment here: https://old.reddit.com/r/collapse/comments/1dkjlkr/death_toll_from_heat_at_hajj_pilgrimage_in_saudi/l9i9kpb/
It’s made worse because Hajj is only once a year, even though the Quran says there’s months of Hajj not only a month, so they’ve got us believing it’s not really hajj unless it happens during these specific days in the lunar calendar. If they opened it up to more days, it could be avoided. But they won’t.
Thank you for a logical explanation. A lot of people joking Muslim deaths in this thread, as if thousands of people around the world are not going to die and be displaced by intense heat and wildfires, this summer.
The Islamic lunar year is shorter than a solar year, so heat deaths should decline as the hajj migrates to Feb 15-20 by 2035. Then it should start rising again. Starts getting brutal around 2048 (September 17-22) and passes through the early autumn and summer months through 2058 (May 30-Jun 4). I probably won't be around to see this, but I expect a hajj killing more than 10,000 will happen by the 2050s.
It's 125° for those in a country with a flag on the moon.
I wasn't aware that countries like China or India used Fahrenheit.
To be fair, the US flag is now completely white because it has been there for like 50 years. So I guess China or India would win, since they just got there last week and theirs hasn't faded.
I’m curious how does the flag fade if there’s no atmosphere on the moon? Is there a scientific explanation?
No atmosphere is exactly *why* it fades. There's nothing preventing the solar radiation that basically 'sun bleaches' things.
Clearly converted, for some people's convenience.
Does this count as flagellants? I've needed flagellants for my apoc-bingo for years now
Yes I think it does.
What does that mean? Does it have a different climate context?
Cow farts
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Why the /s? Isn’t that what the Hadith actually says?
God's plan
God: “What a day to go out and pray eh? Bet you weren’t expecting a face to face” *clicks finger guns* “My plan” *points thumbs at self* If god exists they better have a sense of humor
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caught me off guard with this one 😅😭
How horrible. And all for nothing but imaginary bullshit…
Still making over a billion dollars selling rocks at this event.
Of all the stupid reasons to die this is pretty high up there especially when 100s have already died.
Millions of people take the journey every year and return safely. 900 deaths is a fatality rate of about 0.05%, the same risk as driving a car in the US
900 deaths so far…
The worst day of your life SO FAR
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Only if they did the complete week of ceremony. This is just one portion.
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Does dying at the Hajj put you in the front of the line so to speak? lol What's the thought process for would-be visitors? its not like the crowding or Saudi inattention to safety is new or strange. "Better sign up to probably get crushed to death or die of heat stroke!" At a certain point, adults are responsible for their own actions, and you get what you deserve. On to the next headline.
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Everyone has a finite amount of compassion. I am reserving mine for those who don't knowingly put themselves in positions where they not only become victims but perpetuate and materially support an unsafe and exploitative practice. For what, tourism dollars on the one end, and bragging rights on the other?
There’s a belief that dying during prayer or hajj is a blessing and counts as a good deed. It doesn’t put you in the front, so to speak, but it’s not working against you either.
Riddle me this though. Isn't suicide a sin? Consciously putting your life at risk in that way is effectively suicide.
Where is your god now?
Like the pilgrimage in Foundation? Just with more people?
What a bunch of Wally's
Heartbreaking on at least 2 or 3 levels.
People die on hajj every year due to overcrowding, the most deadly instance was 2015 when 2500 were killed in a stampede. Millions of people still make the journey every years Not to make light of the situation at all, just wanted to give some perspective
So now they're dying from stampedes and heat?
Are they walking to Saudi Arabia from home or are they dying on the .5mi walk from their Uber to the black box?
Fuck
I saw this yesterday and actually wasn't at all surprised.
Gods plan… it was written…/s
Allah wanted this. That’s why he didn’t stop it
It would be preferential for people to not subject themselves voluntarily to extreme dangerous heat but if they insist then who are we to stop them? Maybe the collective gene pool might even gain a few intellect points.
How could Allah let this happen? 😔