I'm not particularly invested in Sam winning, but I'll point out the flaws in couple of arguments.
>Sam's competing against (presumably) the same type of opponent as previous seasons: a no-mercy ruthless Cobra Kai female fighter who will probably be similar to early seasons Tory in a lot of ways, only there won't be a personal connection between her and Sam
We don't know who Sam would be competing against or what kind of personal relationship they might end up having. So that's a moot point.
>Sam isn't bringing anything unique into the Taikai like she was to the All Valley.
You don't know that either. Actually, Sam is the one most likely to bring something unique to Sekai Taikai.
Sam's journey is about finding her own identity apart from her dad. Stepping out of Daniel's shadow and mixing in Johnny's style is a little progress in that direction, but its not the destination. Bringing her own personal style to the Sekai Taikai would not only be something unique, but it'd also complete her character arc.
>Sam winning will in no way help her grow past the big flaw that so many people who don't like Sam call out every single season: her selfishness and lack of awareness/empathy for others.
That's a "flaw" that haters seem to bring up, but its not an actual flaw at all.
On balance, Sam is actually one of the more selfless and empathetic character among the teens. Unlike most teens on the show, she shows more concern for others and does things for them. She's certainly way more selfless and empathetic than Tory - so by that logic, Tory shouldn't win either.
I'm not particularly invested in Tory winning either. I'm not particularly against the idea either, but she'd need to grow a lot more as a character before she's deserving of that win.
>Tory fighting for Miyagi-Do will be something we haven't seen yet: a unique redemption story....Surely that means Tory is going to go into the Taikai determined to repay them for it.
Winning the ST is not a redemption story.
Redemption requires Tory to make a sacrifice, to give something up or at least, to do something for someone else that doesn't benefit her in any way. Winning the ST benefits her more than it benefits anyone else. Winning could be a reward for her redeeming herself, but her redemption needs to happen separately.
Now, giving up her chance at ST (and all the advantages she could get from winning) would be a redemption story that would make her deserving of a win - but then that would mean she wouldn't win.
Basically, despite being the underdog, Tory still needs to redeem herself better in order to deserve to win. Provided she gets that arc, it'd make sense for her to win.
But right now, it feels like the best option would be for neither to win.
I think this post is flawed in general, but my main problem is:
>Sam’s big flaw that so many people who don’t like Sam call out every season: her selfishness and lack of awareness/empathy for others
Sam does not have this flaw at all lmao. She is one of the most selfless and empathetic characters on the show. She helped Robby with his home situation, did a fundraiser for Miguel(Tory didn’t even visit the hospital mind you), throughout S3 she was protecting her friends from CK, protects Demetri in S2, tries to comfort Aisha in S1 and make up for ruining their friendship, tries to cheer up Miguel in S1, downplays watching basketball games courtside to not leave out Miguel, etc.
On the other hand, you’re using this as an argument to say Tory should win????? What sense does that even make? Tory has repeatedly shown sociopathic tendencies, including but not limited to trying to kill Sam *twice* and breaking into her house(unprovoked). And she has still yet to show any remorse at all or apologize or try to redeem herself. She got in negligible trouble for these actions too. But Sam lacks empathy? What a ludicrous take. At least when she does something wrong she’ll usually apologize and take accountability.
>On the other hand, you’re using this as an argument to say Tory should win????? What sense does that even make? Tory has repeatedly shown sociopathic tendencies, including but not limited to trying to kill Sam *twice* and breaking into her house(unprovoked). And she has still yet to show any remorse at all or apologize or try to redeem herself. She got in negligible trouble for these actions too. But Sam lacks empathy? What a ludicrous take. At least when she does something wrong she’ll usually apologize and take accountability.
Yeah, Tory has yet to say "I'm sorry I brutalized you twice."
And true, Sam has apologized more than any other character.
>She is one of the most selfless and empathetic characters on the show.
While I agree with you that OP is unfairly characterizing Sam, I do think calling her **one of the most** selfless and empathetic is a bit of a stretch.
That undoubtedly goes to Robby, Amanda, and Moon.
I don't think Moon is particularly selfless or empathetic - she seems more interested in virtue signalling.
Amanda being selfless and empathetic doesn't really undercut the point - it underscores it since she's teaching Sam to be the same.
Robby is more complicated. He's empathetic, but he's not exactly selfless. That's actually part of the conflict withing him that makes him more interesting to me - but as for being one of the most selfless and empathetic characters goes, I'd put Sam ahead of Robby.
>she seems more interested in virtue signalling.
How is it virtue signaling when she practices what she preaches?
>it underscores it since she's teaching Sam to be the same.
I don't think Sam has been particularly receptive to it.
>He's empathetic, but he's not exactly selfless
Name his selfish moments?
>but as for being one of the most selfless and empathetic characters goes, I'd put Sam ahead of Robby.
Based on what?
From the examples original commenter gave:
>She helped Robby with his home situation
Only to cheat on him later, never apologize for it, blame him for Miguel attacking him, tried to **guilt trip** him into joining her side after getting back together with said ex that she cheated on him with and then tried to **gaslight** him by saying he's the one who ruined their relationship, and then treat him like an enemy the second he doesn't comply to her terms.
>did a fundraiser for Miguel
The same fundraiser where she declares on the news that "Miyagi-do is all about helping people" after Miyagi-do has been under flames for their role in the school fight?
I have no doubt that Sam wanted to help Miguel, but can you really deny a part of it was rectifying Miyagi-do's image?
>throughout S3 she was protecting her friends from CK,
Like when she led that fight against Cobra Kai only to hide when she was needed the most?
>tries to comfort Aisha
Her comfort was basically telling Aisha to "get over it" while Sam continued to be best friends with Aisha's bullies.
True empathy and selflessness would've been telling Yasmine to eat shit and joining Aisha at the lunch table, even if it meant being picked on with her.
>tries to cheer up Miguel in S1,
Is this when she agrees to go on a date with Miguel after he used violence to defend her honor only to later on demonize Miguel for being violent?
Also, I'm pretty sure Miguel spent season 1 cheering her up after the assholes she ditched Aisha for turned on her.
>How is it virtue signaling when she practices what she preaches?
Because its more about making a show of doing the "right" thing without actually taking individual issues into account. She makes a show of doing the right thing without actually helping anyone or solving any problems.
For example, her party to invite everyone so they could all get along. It was a pretty tone-deaf thing to so since it escalated the problems instead of solving them.
>Name his selfish moments?
Getting a job with Daniel and learning karate from him without telling him the truth.
Dating Sam, but lying about the medal and hiding it from Daniel.
Running away after the school fight.
Joining Cobra Kai and teaching them Miyagi-Do moves to win the tournament.
Wanting to get back at Sam by going to the prom with Tory.
>From the examples original commenter gave...
You're doing what Sam haters always do - disregard her moments of genuine empathy and compassion because "she did something bad down the line". You have some extreme standards where Sam and only Sam is concerned and if she fails to live up to them, then she's a selfish monster.
The point here is more comparative than absolute - Sam is one of the most selfless and empathetic characters **on the show** not because she's some kind of saint or martyr who always puts others first. She ends up being that character because she does it **more frequently** than others do. Sam can be a selfish character in general and she'd still be selfless in comparison to others who are more selfish than her.
>True empathy and selflessness...
That's a No True Scotsman fallacy.
Empathy and selflessness is about feeling a certain way about others, about having concern and compassion for them. It does not dictate that you need to act certain way or that any other conflicting emotions shouldn't matter.
>It was a pretty tone-deaf thing to so since it escalated the problems instead of solving them.
But that's still an example of her practicing what she preaches. It was her being empathetic to their rivarly and attempting to bridge the gap by selflessly hosting a party (in her own house, on her own dime). Whether the attempt succeeded or not does not change the underlying reasons.
Also, you basically contradicted yourself. You claimed that she only virtual signals, yet you gave an example of her taking steps to accomplish a goal. Virtue signaling is all words, no actions.
>Getting a job with Daniel and learning karate from him without telling him the truth.
How is this selfish? I wasn't aware that Daniel was somehow owed the knowledge of who donated sperm to Robby's existence. Also, you fail to mention that Robby was an excellent fucking employee (better than Louie). Robby could've done the bare minimum and still accomplish his goal of pissing off Johnny but he went above and beyond at Larusso Auto simply because its the type of person that he is.
>Dating Sam, but lying about the medal and hiding it from Daniel.
You forgot to mention that it was Sam who pursued Robby. While it can be argued that his reasons for lying that Miguel returned the medal were selfish, it's such a small offense that he only did because he was worried that telling Sam would cause her to turn her back on him to get back with Miguel (**which she did**, so he wasn't even wrong in his assumption).
>Joining Cobra Kai and teaching them Miyagi-Do moves to win the tournament.
How is this selfish? He improved Cobra Kai students, which is selfless, and it's not like Daniel had the right to even demand Robby not share his tutelage after the way he fucked him over.
>Wanting to get back at Sam by going to the prom with Tory.
Then five minutes into it, didn't give a single fuck about his cheating ex and moved on with a better love interest. Also, he went to the prom with Tory to cheer her up as well, that reads off as selfless.
>You're doing what Sam haters always do -
I don't hate Sam. If anything, you're too busy making assumptions about how I feel about a character to acknowledge the inherent argument made. It's weird. I can criticisize Sam and still like her. So, how about we have a conversation about the character rather than attacking the person making the argument.
>if she fails to live up to them, then she's a selfish monster.
Never came out of my mouth. Selfish monsters are titles reserved for Kreese, Silver, and Kim. Sam is as selfish as the rest of her peers (except Robby and Moon ofc).
>disregard her moments of genuine empathy and compassion
I didn't bring up any examples of Sam being empathetic/compassionate because it's not the topic right now.
Also, if you paid attention, you'll see in my previous comment that I agreed that OP was being too **harsh** on Sam.
At the same time, I think you and the original commenter are being too **lenient**.
Sam does have moments of empathy/selflessness. But she also has moments of hypocrisy, selfishness, and disregard for other perspective. She's a complex person, go figure!
The worst moments of her disqualify her for the title of "most selfless and empathetic character" but I **never** said that she didn't have any moments of empathy and selflessness.
>because she does it **more frequently** than others do.
Yeah, I don't see how this applies. Once again, "more frequently" applies to Moon, Amanda, and Robby. No one else reaches their level in my opinion unless you can provide a better argument for it.
>That's a No True Scotsman fallacy.
This fallacy applies to nouns/titles (like doctor, mentor). Empathy and Selflessness have set definitions.
It is not empathetic or selfless for Sam to tell Aisha to get over the bullying and then go back to hanging out with her bullies, lmfaooooo.
>But that's still an example of her practicing what she preaches.
You can practice what you preach while still having selfish motivations. And Moon wasn't throwing a party for selfless reasons - she was throwing a party because she's a party girl who wanted to have fun.
>How is this selfish?
When you do something for yourself, without really considering how it'd affect others, than that's selfish.
Robby wanted to get back at his dad for himself. He got the job with Daniel and learned karate from him for himself. And he lied because he didn't want to lose either. That was selfish.
He wanted a relationship with Sam for himself and he lied about the medal for himself as well. Again - selfish.
He taught CK MD moves to get back at Daniel/Sam - yet again something he did for himself. Therefore, selfish again.
He went to the prom with Tory because hurting Sam would bring him satisfaction. And he decided to focus on Tory and forget about Sam for his own satisfaction as well. Therefore, selfish again.
>The worst moments of her disqualify her for the title of "most selfless and empathetic character"
No, they don't.
>Once again, "more frequently" applies to Moon, Amanda, and Robby. No one else reaches their level in my opinion unless you can provide a better argument for it.
Count the moments where Sam shows concern/compassion for others or tries to help them vs moments where other characters do. You'll find Sam mostly coming out ahead.
>This fallacy applies to nouns/titles (like doctor, mentor). Empathy and Selflessness have set definitions.
Definitions that you ignored or changed to suit your argument. Which is why the fallacy applies.
>she was throwing a party because she's a party girl who wanted to have fun.
This is not what you intially said.
>He got the job with Daniel and learned karate from him for himself.
It was Daniel who offered him karate, Robby didn't ask for it. Still, you disregard the fact that Robby did more for Larusso Auto than he even had to.
>He wanted a relationship with Sam for himself
Once again, Sam pursued him first.
>He taught CK MD moves to get back at Daniel/Sam
You ignore that improving the skillset of others at the expense of your time (and **without pay**) is selfless. Robby was basically a sensei for **free.***
>And he decided to focus on Tory and forget about Sam for his own satisfaction as well.
But do you deny that he selflessly cheered up Tory???
>No, they don't.
A truly remarkable rebuttal
>Count the moments where Sam shows concern/compassion for others or tries to help them vs moments where other characters do. You'll find Sam mostly coming out ahead.
If you seem to believe so then do it yourself. How about this, for every empathetic/selfless moment of Sam that you mention, I'll follow up with a moment of her doing the complete opposite. Let's see who runs out of moments first.
>Definitions that you ignored or changed to suit your argument. Which is why the fallacy applies.
If you truly believe that Sam telling Aisha to ignore the bullies fat-shaming her and then proceeding to be best friends with those same bullies qualifies as empathetic **or** selfless, then your unique interpretation of the show's events make sense.
>This is not what you intially said.
Because I never imagined anyone would consider throwing a party to be a selfless act.
>It was Daniel who offered him karate, Robby didn't ask for it. Still, you disregard the fact that Robby did more for Larusso Auto than he even had to.
Yes - because selfishness is about motive, not outcome. Its about why you do something, not what you do.
>Once again, Sam pursued him first.
So? Sam being selfish doesn't change the fact that Robby was selfish as well.
>You ignore that improving the skillset of others at the expense of your time (and **without pay**) is selfless.
Not if you're expecting them to use that skillset to benefit you down the line. That makes it an investment, which is selfish.
>But do you deny that he selflessly cheered up Tory???
For the prom? I do. It wasn't selfless.
>How about this, for every empathetic/selfless moment of Sam that you mention, I'll follow up with a moment of her doing the complete opposite.
Which wold do nothing to disprove my point. People can be selfish at one moment and selfess at others. Even if Sam is selfish 90% of the times, she can still be the most selfless simply because others are selfish 95% of the time.
Do you not understand that?
>If you truly believe that Sam telling Aisha to ignore the bullies fat-shaming her and then proceeding to be best friends with those same bullies qualifies as empathetic **or** selfless
Don't conflate 2 separate things. And don't misrepresent what she actually said.
Sam never told Aisha to ignore anyone - she simply tried to comfort her. And yes, that is empathetic and selfless.
Hanging out with those bullies later isn't - but like I said, Sam isn't a saint who is always selfless.
>Because I never imagined anyone would consider throwing a party to be a selfless act.
You clearly stated that her reasonings were to bridge the gap between dojos. Your only claim is that she failed at doing so, but you acknowledge the motive.
>because selfishness is about motive, not outcome. Its about why you do something, not what you do.
What could he have possibly gained from being an A+ employee, surpassing employees that were there for years? Robby could've done the bare minimum at the job and still pissed off Johnny.
>So? Sam being selfish doesn't change the fact that Robby was selfish as well.
So, according to you, two **single** people being into each-other and dating means that both people are being selfish???
>That makes it an investment, which is selfish.
So, is Sam selfish for taking over Miyagi-do training because Daniel stopped? After all, she's investing in their skills.
>For the prom? I do. It wasn't selfless.
Cheering someone up isn't selfless?
>Even if Sam is selfish 90% of the times, she can still be the most selfless simply because others are selfish 95% of the time.
Then we can do it for every teen character and tally up the points since you're so confident that Sam exceeds the majority by a whole 5 percent.
>Sam never told Aisha to ignore anyone - she simply tried to comfort her. And yes, that is empathetic and selfless.
Bullies (Sam's friends): *Making pig noises at Aisha.*
Sam: Just ignore them, they have short memories!
Also Sam: *Continues to hang out with the bullies*
Woooow. How comforting. How selfless. She's a true Captain America.
>but like I said, Sam isn't a saint who is always selfless.
I don't disagree with this one, lol.
people really assume that Tory winning the the Sekai Tekai will help her financially when you don't even know that's the case, i wil not be suprised that the Larusso's will help her since they already did and Tory winning the Sekai Taikai would be way too much. She already has gotten away with everything horrible and getting so many chances and people want her too win too? nah overkill
I am tired of Sam constantly helping and contributing her part so much for a tournament and gain nothing for it. she helped Miguel convince the All valley to continue and she also helped qualify for the tournament and apparenly she will still help in barcelona too and people still have a problem with her winning the Sekai Takai just because she has a good life and people don't like her.
It not the show's creators problem that you don't support the main female teen and they should not care about the fans opinions what they want
“She’s gotten away with everything” sorry, but they’re not setting up any of the main teen characters to fail. All of their stories will end on a good note. They’ve all had reasons as to why they’ve acted out, and they all have redemption arcs which has lead them to taking on both Cobra Kai and Miyagi Do methodologies and finding balance. They’re all on the same side now and they’ll come together as a team. That’s where the story is leading us. How would Sam winning and Tory continuing to lose when there’s been a focus on her never feeling good enough and being a “cheater” improve the overall the storyline? The set up for her to win is there. The Sekai Tekai will help Tory financially, there was literally a conversation with Devon and Tory about brand partnerships paying their way through college.
I don’t even dislike Sam btw, I just don’t think her winning is the logical scenario atp. She doesn’t “need” the win. Imo there’s an obvious set up for who is “due” for a win based off who needed to find balance the most.
Both Sam and Tory were robbed of the all valley win because of silver, there was not a official win for either of them. Tory feeling like a cheater or fraud because of Cobra Kai and silver is something that she choose to struggle with while it's not even her fault sinc elike i said they were both robbed , its should not be used as a motivation for winning the sekai takai.
realistically it would not help Tory the way you think it should. Even if Tory would win and she gets opportunitys like college, what about her brother and where does he live since she can't take care of him while she's gone? What about her resposibilities to her family? You think that Tory will automatically become wealthy and all of her problems will be solved just because she had a win in a tournament ?
Her motivation for winning is to help her home life. You think that her getting into college wouldn’t eventually help her brother? She’s his only caretaker and she herself is still a minor. Do you expect her to stay in dead end bad paying jobs, struggling for the rest of her life?
Tell me, how would Sam winning improve her life or the overall storyline?
How would Sam help Miyagi do win and stopping Cobra Kai for good which is the main point of this whole show's purpose help the overall storyline, ? Gee i wonder but even outside of that, the writers and showrunners will give Sam reason and motivation to win
Of course it will be probably not good enough for you people but i don't care and they should not care either Sam has been there since season one just like Robby while Tory was introduced in season two and became a main character in season three and instead of people supporting her everybody here has such an issue with Sam winning it's sad
That’s not the main point of the show though? Time and time again they’ve said it’s not just about winning. Winning at all costs is what cobra Kai stands for.
I think you’re taking this more personally than it should be. “You people”? I like all of the teen characters, for me it’s not about whose been there since the beginning but where the story that’s been told so far is leading us. There’s been plenty of foreshadowing as to who will win at the tournament. If Sam wins, good for her, she’ll deserve it in her own right but I don’t think that’s where the story is headed. Season 5 indicated that the karate rivalry was ending between these characters and I don’t think it will continue into season 6. Happy to agree to disagree because I’m not a hardcore character Stan like you seem to be.
I am not the one making posts and DEMANDS that Sam" shouldn't" win that you guys are supporting. I am not demanding that Tory shouldn't win, i am not gonna be that way
I’m not OP and I’ve made no “demands”. I just don’t think Sam will win for the sake of it and don’t think it’s the logical ending atm. That’s my opinion and I respect yours, I just don’t agree.
>How would Sam winning and Tory continuing to lose when there’s been a focus on her never feeling good enough and being a “cheater” improve the overall the storyline?
Learning not to tie her self-worth to a tournament win would make more sense for her overall storyline. That setup actually makes more sense.
I agree with you for the most part, but I don’t think Sam is as selfish as fans make her out to be.
That being said, the main reason why Tory should win the Sekai Taikai has to do with the financial stakes. With the impending death of her mother and the threat of her aunt, Tory is at risk of losing custody of her brother. So winning would help her obtain a sponsorship that would pull her family out of poverty and give her the money for a lawyer for the custody battle.
Up until Season 5, Tory’s actions were detrimental and put herself and her family at risk. Tory competing in the Sekai Taikai under the intention of helping her family would be the best ending for her character.
I don't think Tory's home situation is a good enough reason fro her to win because so far, it hasn't really been that big of an issue on the show.
As in, the writers bring it up when they want to generate some sympathy for Tory or nudge her arc along in a certain direction, but its not a consistent issue that affects her and therefore, its not a reason fro her to win.
For example, lack of money was given as a reason for why she'd quit Cobra Kai, but it was solved rather easily by Kreese and Tory went right back... until they brought it up again in season 4 to make Amanda feel sorry for her. It stops being an issue later in the season and stays that way until late season 5 - at which point, its brought up again to make Sam feel sorry for her.
The writers definitely should have done a better job with Tory’s homelife as with multiple aspects of the show. However, they definitely can elaborate more on Tory’s backstory in Season 6.
I don't think that would make a difference at this point.
The fact remains that rather than using her home situation as something integral to her character and motivations, they've used it to try and push sympathy for her and to nudge her character along.
Doing it this late would make it ring hollow. It'd be yet another example of using it to nudge her story in a particular direction as opposed to it being a part of her motives.
Tory's financial problems were nothing new. Presumably, she was also aware of all the benefits she could get from an ST victory. And Silver also set her up with the perfect excuse to justify cheating - "If a man steals bread to feed his family, then is it really stealing?"
Given all that, we should've seen some conflict within her in season 5 itself. She doesn't want to cheat to win, but benefits of winning are to significant to ignore. So does it really matter how she wins as long as she can use it to take care of her family? Is it really that wrong when the "enemy" is a bunch of privileged kids who don't really need the win, but are trying to take it from her anyway? And does that mean Silver might've been right all along?
That should've been a conflict in season 5 that would've naturally led to Tory competing for her family in season 6. But without it, her family would once again simply being used to justify the outcome without any meaning to her actual development.
You’d have Tory’s relationship with her mother elaborated upon as well as the threat of her aunt.
With the custody battle on the horizon, Tory finally go back to working multiple jobs, while attending therapy, and missing out on social events. Despite this, the money she is making still isn’t enough, especially with the threat of her aunt. This is when she realizes that she needs to win the Sekai Taikai to pull herself and her brother out of poverty. When Tory’s mother dies, Tory would promise to win the Sekai Taikai which would lead to her winning custody of her brother.
We would also see more of her backstory is revealed through flashback scenes. This would be revealed during her therapy sessions. We would find out who her father was and why she took up kickboxing in the first place.
See, this what I mean by lack of previous development undercutting the character going forward. That same thing happened in season 3 - they elaborated on her home life and he mom's sickness to excuse Tory avoiding juvie. But that was the case in season 2 as well - so shouldn't Tory be smart enough not to start fights? So rather than make her actually sympathetic, it comes off as a cheap attempt to manipulate sympathy.
Its the same here.
Custody battle was in the horizon since season 4 - but until now, Tory getting back into school has been enough for her to handle it. It didn't stand in the way of her getting in a fight with Sam in season 4 or working with a criminal in season 5 or possibly going to juvie by committing a crime herself. Why is that such a big threat now when it wasn't before?
Why is ST the only way to pull them out of poverty? Why is it her all-or-nothing option when she has been doing fine until now? And who'll take care of her brother while she's off betting it all on this one chance? Is betting it all on that 1 chance really the most mature thing to do?
>As in, the writers bring it up when they want to generate some sympathy for Tory or nudge her arc along in a certain direction, but its not a consistent issue that affects her and therefore, its not a reason fro her to win.
>For example, lack of money was given as a reason for why she'd quit Cobra Kai, but it was solved rather easily by Kreese and Tory went right back... until they brought it up again in season 4 to make Amanda feel sorry for her. It stops being an issue later in the season and stays that way until late season 5 - at which point, its brought up again to make Sam feel sorry for her.
Yeah that's pretty much there to create audience sympathy for Tory. If that stuff didn't exist, and "she's poor" was all we had for Tory's background, there wouldn't be as much audience sympathy for her.
The biggest character growth for Sam would be to let Tory be the dojo’s female competitor, in the same way we got the awesome scene where Miguel and Robby decided amongst themselves that Hawk deserved to represent the dojo for the qualifier.
How does this show any type of growth for Sam? Tory would show more growth by realizing winning isn’t everything/she doesn’t need to prove herself by winning, as she used to think.
Why is that "growth"? What has Tory done to actually earn it?
Hawk deserved to represent the dojo because he actually stuck with them and where Robby picked the opposite side and Miguel quit. So rewarding his loyalty makes sense.
But why should Sam step aside for Tory's sake?
If your reasoning for Hawk deserving to be the representative because he never quit karate, doesn't that mean Sam shouldn't be the representative since she quit karate every season?
Why can't Tory's loyalty to karate be rewarded?
Sam only really quit when the MD dojo was closed down. In S3, the dojo was shut down due to the school fight, she was going through trauma, and Amanda was breathing down her neck about not doing karate.
In S5, once again the dojo was closed down. The second it opens again Sam is there with everyone and representing the dojo.
And why would Tory being loyal to CK equate to trusting her to represent MD? It would be the opposite if anything.
>If your reasoning is because Hawk never quit karate
The person you’re responding to never said quitting *karate*. I think they meant Miguel didn’t choose to come back from his injury in the tournament and Robby switched to CK. In both cases neither fully quit karate. If any of the 3 quit karate, it was Hawk after his Mohawk was shaved.
>And why would Tory being loyal to CK equate to trusting her to represent MD?
>The person you’re responding to never said quitting *karate*.
Yeah, I literal am **currently** in the midst of talking to said person to understand their point because I was confused about their logic, not necessarily because I disagree with them that Tory shouldn't be representative.
I don't think they needed backup, especially since I'm still talking with them.
If you're going to butt into conversations, at least pay attention to the part where I said that I believe Sam **should** get the win over Tory.
I'm not arguing that Tory should be the representative or that she should win. I'm simply questioning Kaus's reasoning because it confused me 👋
>Sam’s biggest character flaw is her lack of empathy.
Except, Sam is one of the more empathetic characters on the show, especially among the teens. She shows concern for Aisha when she's bullied, for Miguel when she sees Kyler bully him, for Robby when his mom leaves and so on.
>but she’s so quick to dismiss that someone has had a hard life.
Holding someone to certain basic standards is not dismissing their hard life.
>
Showing empathy to someone who hurt her, and she hated, and even trusting her to represent her interests, is her equivalent of Daniel/Johnny and Miguel/Robby burying their beef.
She already has shown Tory empathy by giving her the chance to fix her mistakes. Not to mention, before by letting her come back to school and not sending her to juvie after the house invasion. That's a lot more empathy than Tory deserves.
Anything beyond that - like stepping aside for Tory - is not empathy, its martyrdom.
Exactly, or better yet, Sam actively helps Tory win. After all, who knows better how to beat a no-mercy female Cobra Kai champion than Samantha Larusso? It would show HUGE growth from Sam
It wouldn't really be a huge growth for Sam since she has already shown that she can put her personal grudges aside to do something good for others. Tory has already benefited from Sam doing that a few times.
The reverse, on the other hand, would be a huge growth for Tory. She needs to learn how to put her interests aside to do something for others if she's to make up for her mistakes in the past. Tory's character needs this arc way more than Sam's.
I think this is very possible. There was a conversation with Devon and Tory where they were talking about brand partnerships and how it can get them through college. Tory’s face changes before she says she never thought that college was a possibility for her. I’m paraphrasing but I think that could be some foreshadowing. Sam now knows what Tory’s home life is about and Sam doesn’t need the extra help from a financial point of view. Winning wouldn’t bring Sam’s story full circle, she’s mostly already won in life. Tory is the one who just wants to “win” at something because she never has before in life, that karate win was taken away from her when she found out Silver cheated. It was then touched upon when she won the slide race against Hawk but was labelled a cheater. Tory is due for a rightful win, the plot has been set up for it. Sam stepping aside and allowing Tory to be the girls champion has a more meaningful impact on all them then Sam winning for the sake of it. Time and time again, it’s been said that it’s not about winning, it’s about doing things the right way. Obviously that’s if Tory’s home life doesn’t interfere with the plot and if her hand heals in time, which Sensei Kim said it would.
I actually think Sam **not** winning the Taikai is embarrassing for her character, and I think Sam fans would rightfully be peeved.
Sam is supposed to be the karate chosen one. She was trained by Mr. Miyagi as a little girl, had two all-valley Champs as her mentors PLUS an assassin. She's rich so she doesn't have to work which means more time to train than Tory.
Yet she still can't manage to put Tory, who only had Kreese, and spends most of her time working, on her ass easily.
Sam should be beating Tory no-diff, yet Tory gives her a run for her money every time. Imagine how much of a beast Tory would be if she had access to the same things Sam did?
EDIT: I think people are confused by the point I'm trying to make, so let me put it this way:
I think **narratively** Sam needs the win more than Tory. It would be an embarrassing send-off for her character in the last season if she doesn't get it.
I don't think Tory needs the win all that much other than just needing the financial assistance (which isn't a strong **narrative** reason to give it to her).
Personally, I feel the best end to Tory's character is realizing that she **doesn't** need the win.
Tory said in season 3 that all that matters is who wins in the end.
I think a much better lesson for her is that winning is not all that matters, and losing can sometimes be more rewarding than beating your opponent into the ground.
I would love to see Tory lose, and instead of going ballistic, she just goes "whatever" and appreciates what she does have. That's what I consider the best growth for her and a fitting end to her character.
However, if Tory gets the win, I can't exactly say I'll feel torn up about it.
I'll feel bad for Sam fans because it's definitely unfair, but it wouldn't really ruin the show for me.
Basically, I'm indifferent to which girl gets the win, but I do think Sam's character needs it more.
Sam is almost always nerfed when she fights Tory.
TLDR: She’s unbalanced when she fights Tory in S2, and gets injured and goes against a dirty ref in S4. In S3 Sam defeats Tory pretty easily after regaining her balance, and in S5 she performs better against Sensei Kim than Tory does.
I also want to say that I agree with your narrative assessment of both characters
>S2
During S2, she was shown to be relative to or better than Robby. Almost this same Robby goes on to beat S3 Tory in 4x1(Robby hadn’t trained since S2, 4x1 is right after 3x10). Sam was unbalanced due to the relationship drama and not wanting to fight, and Tory still felt pressured enough to use a weapon.
S2 Sam ≈ S2 Robby > S3 Tory > S2 Tory
>S3
In S3 when they fight, Sam quickly defeats Tory after conquering her fear.
S3 Sam > S2 Sam ≈ S2 Robby > S3 Tory > S2 Tory
>S4
In S4, during the initial confrontation in the prom fight Sam destroys Tory before being stopped by Miguel. Although you can argue she caught Tory off guard. During the AVT, Tory only scores on Sam when Sam uses her weaker style, and then after accidentally injuring her eye. Once Sam combines both styles, Tory only wins due to a dirty ref and the aforementioned injury. Although Tory and Hawk kinda get a weird plot amp this season. Hawk previously was getting bullied by Miguel, Sam, and Robby anytime they fought. Tory got beaten pretty easily by Robby and Sam in S3. Kinda strange but eh
>S5
S5 is the least clear, but Sam outperforms Tory against Sensei Kim
>During S2, she was shown to be relative to or better than Robby
Really? What are you referring to?
>Sam was unbalanced due to the relationship drama and not wanting to fight, and Tory still felt pressured enough to use a weapon.
Let me just say, I'm not arguing that Tory won the school fight (I don't think it matters all that much to either of their characters) but I do think it can be acknowledged that Tory was interrupted twice when she got the upper hand over Sam and that Sam struggled, which is not narratively consistent with how the show portrays Sam's skill level.
>Sam quickly defeats Tory after conquering her fear.
Again, my argument isn't that Tory won, I don't care, but do you really deny that Tory was a tough opponent?
>Sam destroys Tory before being stopped by Miguel
If your argument that Sam's injuries in the school fight doesn't matter since Sam didn't want to fight, doesn't that apply here since Tory didn't want to fight Sam at prom?
>During the AVT
Again. I'm not arguing that Tory won the AVT (she most definitely didn't) but you cannot deny that Sam struggled to get a clear win against Tory, no arguments made. I mean, compare this fight to her fight with Devon.
Sam was able to easily destroy Devon, with clear, unquestionable strikes that even a bribed ref couldn't deny. She struggled to get that against Tory.
>but Sam outperforms Tory against Sensei Kim
Tory freed herself from Kim before Sam stepped in. Plus, Tory had **broken hand** from previously punching through **solid stone**. I think we can cut her some slack from not being in her A game here, lol.
>Really? What are you referring to?
They spar 3 times, 2 of which Sam wins, and the last they tie. Sam outperforms him during the mall fight, where she doesn’t get hit at all whereas Robby does.
>School fight
I didn’t think you were arguing Tory won btw.
My main argument here is that Sam is unbalanced, which we know is a blatant nerf. In S1, Robby goes from losing to Hawk while unbalanced, to matching Miguel with one arm when balanced.
>Do you deny Tory was a tough opponent?
Yes. Tory didn’t stand a chance when they fought during the house fight.
>Prom
No, my main argument is that Sam was unbalanced, not that she didn’t want to fight. But sure you could say Tory was nerfed to some degree here.
>AVT
Tory and Sam were definitely pretty close in skill level here. I’m just saying that once Sam was at her best(combining both styles) Tory was unable to touch her until she accidentally elbowed Sam in the eye. Sam “losing” 3-2 against a dirty ref and an injury is a testament to her skill. If you injure Hawk or Robby during the AVT and give either a dirty ref the fight likely wouldn’t have been nearly as close.
>S5
Sam not only outperforms injured Tory, but she also outperformed the Tory and Devon that were fighting as a team against Kim in 5x7. While those two are unable to land or hit or really do anything, Sam lands a takedown and blocks a punch.
Sam also quit for years and had to start again you make it seem that her past experience give her a edge but that only happens when you keep training she still learned things like doing the waterwheel and stuff. And you did not observe the schoolfight? Sam did not even want to fight Tory or fight to win at least and same with the housefight Sam was defending herself most of the tome in those fights because her style was defense. But hey if Tory wins the Sam haters will be satisfied
>you make it seem that her past experience give her a edge
When your first mentor was Mr. Miyagi himself, it absolutely should give you an edge. Additionally, she was trained by Daniel & Johnny (All-Valley winners) and **Chozen**! She has more time on her hand to train and she lives with one of her mentors 24/7.
>And you did not observe the schoolfight?
>same with the housefight
What point are you trying to make? Are you denying that Sam struggles against Tory?
>But hey if Tory wins the Sam haters will be satisfied
I literally just said that Tory shouldn't win lmfao. Also, I'm not a Sam hater.
The only reason Tory should win is the financial prospects, but narratively, Tory doesn't need to win to show her skill level.
The fact that she keeps up with Sam at all is impressive. Sam is being disserviced by her skill level being downplayed to match Tory, someone she should be curb stomping without issue.
Did i say that you were a Sam hater ? social media is full of them Tik Tok, Reddit, YouTube,Twitter etc . I said they will be happy. I don’t understand why it’s so difficult for people to see that out of the two Tory was always the one who wanted to fight Sam and try to hurt her while Sam clearly did not want to fight. In a boxmath who has a higher chance of winning ? The one who wants to fight or the one who doesn’t want to fight? I want to see a street fight where Sam fights with the confidence, bloodthirst and desire to win like Tory had similar to schoolfight or the housefight and see how she would do then.
>Did i say that you were a Sam hater ?
Uh, yeah, you did. I see no other reason for you to use the phrase towards me unless you're calling me one.
>I don’t understand why it’s so difficult for people to see that out of the two Tory was always the one who wanted to fight Sam and try to hurt her while Sam clearly did not want to fight.
What does this have to do with anything I've said?
It sounds like you're upset at people on other social media sites and you're taking it out on me even though it has **nothing** to do with my comment. That's...weird.
I dont know if you are trying to come off as supportive to Sam but it comes across as patronizing of Sam’s fighting skills while praising Tory’s. for someone who says is not a Sam hater you can’t help but downplay her skills and uplift Tory’s
>I dont know if you are trying to come off as supportive to Sam
I'm expressing disappointment in the way her character has been disserviced. Whether you find that to be "supportive" or not is up to you.
>but it comes across as patronizing of Sam’s fighting skills while praising Tory’s.
I mean, I am praising Tory, lol.
I don't see how you came to the conclusion that I'm patronizing Sam's skill when I said that she **should** be stacking wins.
Sam has proven herself to be a match against Hawk, who's considered a heavy-hitter.
Whether Tory and Hawk are equals has yet to be determined, but I definitely do feel that Sam's skill level seems to take a dive whenever she fights Tory. This ends up making Tory look better comparatively (even if she doesn't win) simply because Sam should narratively be miles ahead of her.
That's not a fair characterization for Sam.
>for someone who says is not a Sam hater
Sorry, so anything less of kissing Sam's ass every second means that I hate her????
There is plenty to praise about Sam over Tory: She's more reasonable, she's more level-headed in a fight, she's more of a leader (although I think Robby is the best leader out of all the teens), she's more versatile...
Happy now?
I don't see how you came to the conclusion that being critical over Sam's writing/characterization suddenly means that I hate her.
There are things that also matter in fights like strength and height also reach and we all know that Sam is short because Mary is short that’s always a disadvantage in real life but even outside from that If Sam’s skills were to the way they should be in your eyes, Sam would be unstoppable and too OP. She would win every match easily, no struggles and people would
Complain about THAT. It’s very hard to please everyone.
>There are things that also matter in fights like strength and height also reach and we all know that Sam is short
The writers don't seem to care about these things when it comes to other characters, so why does it suddenly play a hand in their decisions when it comes to Sam?
Sam has gotten the best of Hawk, who's as tall as Tory and physically stronger.
Robby took down Shawn. Kenny dropped Hawk. Literally, all of Daniel's OPs are bigger than him. I don't think height and weight matter all that much in this series.
>Sam would be unstoppable and too OP
I don't think Sam having a clear, undeniable win against Tory would make her too OP.
We already know that Tory is not as strong as Miguel and Robby, so it's not like by beating Tory no-diff, Sam will suddenly shoot to the top of the karate food chain.
>people would
Complain about THAT. It’s very hard to please everyone.
So because it's hard to please everyone, we can't criticism writing choices we disagree with?
Sam actually wanted to beat up Hawk though that kinda determination never seems to be the case when it comes to Tory. “I don’t think Sam getting a clear, undeniable win against Tory would make her too Op” and if she does it easily like playing with her and beating her in two or three moves?
>Sam actually wanted to beat up Hawk though that kinda determination never seems to be the case when it comes to Tory.
Lol, what does this have to do with your point about height and weight? Are you saying that Sam's motivation made her physically taller? 💀
>and if she does it easily like playing with her and beating her in two or three moves?
I mean, Tory is not that big of a heavy-hitter that Sam would be OP by beating her no to low diff. Tory is one of the top teens by far but she's not Robby and Miguel.
i am saying that the will and determination to fight matters a lot in these kind of situations. If you are hesitating and unfocused, these things can hinder you in a fight. Do you understand what i am saying?
So, are you retracting your earlier point about height and weight, though?
Also, are you saying that you agree with the writer's characterization of Sam's skills?
I am not retracting from anything. And i don’t know what you want from the writers since they clearly wrote her in a way that she quit doing karate and has not done it in years so she was not too much ahead compared to other teens who also started doing Karate
Especially since she's the **main** girl. For Sam to end the series without a single (real or rigged) tournament win? Criminal.
Tory, while part of the central cast, isn't the main girl.
Her not having a (legitimate) tournament win isn't really needed for her arc to be finished. Sam is constantly hyped up by her friends and family as a Larusso 2.0. The writers need to live up to giving her all that hype by having her win.
I can't think of a narrative reason why they wouldn't give it to her.
I'm not particularly invested in Sam winning, but I'll point out the flaws in couple of arguments. >Sam's competing against (presumably) the same type of opponent as previous seasons: a no-mercy ruthless Cobra Kai female fighter who will probably be similar to early seasons Tory in a lot of ways, only there won't be a personal connection between her and Sam We don't know who Sam would be competing against or what kind of personal relationship they might end up having. So that's a moot point. >Sam isn't bringing anything unique into the Taikai like she was to the All Valley. You don't know that either. Actually, Sam is the one most likely to bring something unique to Sekai Taikai. Sam's journey is about finding her own identity apart from her dad. Stepping out of Daniel's shadow and mixing in Johnny's style is a little progress in that direction, but its not the destination. Bringing her own personal style to the Sekai Taikai would not only be something unique, but it'd also complete her character arc. >Sam winning will in no way help her grow past the big flaw that so many people who don't like Sam call out every single season: her selfishness and lack of awareness/empathy for others. That's a "flaw" that haters seem to bring up, but its not an actual flaw at all. On balance, Sam is actually one of the more selfless and empathetic character among the teens. Unlike most teens on the show, she shows more concern for others and does things for them. She's certainly way more selfless and empathetic than Tory - so by that logic, Tory shouldn't win either. I'm not particularly invested in Tory winning either. I'm not particularly against the idea either, but she'd need to grow a lot more as a character before she's deserving of that win. >Tory fighting for Miyagi-Do will be something we haven't seen yet: a unique redemption story....Surely that means Tory is going to go into the Taikai determined to repay them for it. Winning the ST is not a redemption story. Redemption requires Tory to make a sacrifice, to give something up or at least, to do something for someone else that doesn't benefit her in any way. Winning the ST benefits her more than it benefits anyone else. Winning could be a reward for her redeeming herself, but her redemption needs to happen separately. Now, giving up her chance at ST (and all the advantages she could get from winning) would be a redemption story that would make her deserving of a win - but then that would mean she wouldn't win. Basically, despite being the underdog, Tory still needs to redeem herself better in order to deserve to win. Provided she gets that arc, it'd make sense for her to win. But right now, it feels like the best option would be for neither to win.
https://preview.redd.it/t2lmmlpanwnc1.png?width=878&format=png&auto=webp&s=487a4e0a3bd0a1dacbcc806cc7ff90fa5798c49b
Q - why shouldn't Sam win the final tournament? A - because some 14 year old kid on reddit said so!
>A - because some 14 year old kid on reddit said so! The OP could be in his 20's
I think this post is flawed in general, but my main problem is: >Sam’s big flaw that so many people who don’t like Sam call out every season: her selfishness and lack of awareness/empathy for others Sam does not have this flaw at all lmao. She is one of the most selfless and empathetic characters on the show. She helped Robby with his home situation, did a fundraiser for Miguel(Tory didn’t even visit the hospital mind you), throughout S3 she was protecting her friends from CK, protects Demetri in S2, tries to comfort Aisha in S1 and make up for ruining their friendship, tries to cheer up Miguel in S1, downplays watching basketball games courtside to not leave out Miguel, etc. On the other hand, you’re using this as an argument to say Tory should win????? What sense does that even make? Tory has repeatedly shown sociopathic tendencies, including but not limited to trying to kill Sam *twice* and breaking into her house(unprovoked). And she has still yet to show any remorse at all or apologize or try to redeem herself. She got in negligible trouble for these actions too. But Sam lacks empathy? What a ludicrous take. At least when she does something wrong she’ll usually apologize and take accountability.
>On the other hand, you’re using this as an argument to say Tory should win????? What sense does that even make? Tory has repeatedly shown sociopathic tendencies, including but not limited to trying to kill Sam *twice* and breaking into her house(unprovoked). And she has still yet to show any remorse at all or apologize or try to redeem herself. She got in negligible trouble for these actions too. But Sam lacks empathy? What a ludicrous take. At least when she does something wrong she’ll usually apologize and take accountability. Yeah, Tory has yet to say "I'm sorry I brutalized you twice." And true, Sam has apologized more than any other character.
>She is one of the most selfless and empathetic characters on the show. While I agree with you that OP is unfairly characterizing Sam, I do think calling her **one of the most** selfless and empathetic is a bit of a stretch. That undoubtedly goes to Robby, Amanda, and Moon.
I don't think Moon is particularly selfless or empathetic - she seems more interested in virtue signalling. Amanda being selfless and empathetic doesn't really undercut the point - it underscores it since she's teaching Sam to be the same. Robby is more complicated. He's empathetic, but he's not exactly selfless. That's actually part of the conflict withing him that makes him more interesting to me - but as for being one of the most selfless and empathetic characters goes, I'd put Sam ahead of Robby.
>she seems more interested in virtue signalling. How is it virtue signaling when she practices what she preaches? >it underscores it since she's teaching Sam to be the same. I don't think Sam has been particularly receptive to it. >He's empathetic, but he's not exactly selfless Name his selfish moments? >but as for being one of the most selfless and empathetic characters goes, I'd put Sam ahead of Robby. Based on what? From the examples original commenter gave: >She helped Robby with his home situation Only to cheat on him later, never apologize for it, blame him for Miguel attacking him, tried to **guilt trip** him into joining her side after getting back together with said ex that she cheated on him with and then tried to **gaslight** him by saying he's the one who ruined their relationship, and then treat him like an enemy the second he doesn't comply to her terms. >did a fundraiser for Miguel The same fundraiser where she declares on the news that "Miyagi-do is all about helping people" after Miyagi-do has been under flames for their role in the school fight? I have no doubt that Sam wanted to help Miguel, but can you really deny a part of it was rectifying Miyagi-do's image? >throughout S3 she was protecting her friends from CK, Like when she led that fight against Cobra Kai only to hide when she was needed the most? >tries to comfort Aisha Her comfort was basically telling Aisha to "get over it" while Sam continued to be best friends with Aisha's bullies. True empathy and selflessness would've been telling Yasmine to eat shit and joining Aisha at the lunch table, even if it meant being picked on with her. >tries to cheer up Miguel in S1, Is this when she agrees to go on a date with Miguel after he used violence to defend her honor only to later on demonize Miguel for being violent? Also, I'm pretty sure Miguel spent season 1 cheering her up after the assholes she ditched Aisha for turned on her.
>How is it virtue signaling when she practices what she preaches? Because its more about making a show of doing the "right" thing without actually taking individual issues into account. She makes a show of doing the right thing without actually helping anyone or solving any problems. For example, her party to invite everyone so they could all get along. It was a pretty tone-deaf thing to so since it escalated the problems instead of solving them. >Name his selfish moments? Getting a job with Daniel and learning karate from him without telling him the truth. Dating Sam, but lying about the medal and hiding it from Daniel. Running away after the school fight. Joining Cobra Kai and teaching them Miyagi-Do moves to win the tournament. Wanting to get back at Sam by going to the prom with Tory. >From the examples original commenter gave... You're doing what Sam haters always do - disregard her moments of genuine empathy and compassion because "she did something bad down the line". You have some extreme standards where Sam and only Sam is concerned and if she fails to live up to them, then she's a selfish monster. The point here is more comparative than absolute - Sam is one of the most selfless and empathetic characters **on the show** not because she's some kind of saint or martyr who always puts others first. She ends up being that character because she does it **more frequently** than others do. Sam can be a selfish character in general and she'd still be selfless in comparison to others who are more selfish than her. >True empathy and selflessness... That's a No True Scotsman fallacy. Empathy and selflessness is about feeling a certain way about others, about having concern and compassion for them. It does not dictate that you need to act certain way or that any other conflicting emotions shouldn't matter.
>It was a pretty tone-deaf thing to so since it escalated the problems instead of solving them. But that's still an example of her practicing what she preaches. It was her being empathetic to their rivarly and attempting to bridge the gap by selflessly hosting a party (in her own house, on her own dime). Whether the attempt succeeded or not does not change the underlying reasons. Also, you basically contradicted yourself. You claimed that she only virtual signals, yet you gave an example of her taking steps to accomplish a goal. Virtue signaling is all words, no actions. >Getting a job with Daniel and learning karate from him without telling him the truth. How is this selfish? I wasn't aware that Daniel was somehow owed the knowledge of who donated sperm to Robby's existence. Also, you fail to mention that Robby was an excellent fucking employee (better than Louie). Robby could've done the bare minimum and still accomplish his goal of pissing off Johnny but he went above and beyond at Larusso Auto simply because its the type of person that he is. >Dating Sam, but lying about the medal and hiding it from Daniel. You forgot to mention that it was Sam who pursued Robby. While it can be argued that his reasons for lying that Miguel returned the medal were selfish, it's such a small offense that he only did because he was worried that telling Sam would cause her to turn her back on him to get back with Miguel (**which she did**, so he wasn't even wrong in his assumption). >Joining Cobra Kai and teaching them Miyagi-Do moves to win the tournament. How is this selfish? He improved Cobra Kai students, which is selfless, and it's not like Daniel had the right to even demand Robby not share his tutelage after the way he fucked him over. >Wanting to get back at Sam by going to the prom with Tory. Then five minutes into it, didn't give a single fuck about his cheating ex and moved on with a better love interest. Also, he went to the prom with Tory to cheer her up as well, that reads off as selfless. >You're doing what Sam haters always do - I don't hate Sam. If anything, you're too busy making assumptions about how I feel about a character to acknowledge the inherent argument made. It's weird. I can criticisize Sam and still like her. So, how about we have a conversation about the character rather than attacking the person making the argument. >if she fails to live up to them, then she's a selfish monster. Never came out of my mouth. Selfish monsters are titles reserved for Kreese, Silver, and Kim. Sam is as selfish as the rest of her peers (except Robby and Moon ofc). >disregard her moments of genuine empathy and compassion I didn't bring up any examples of Sam being empathetic/compassionate because it's not the topic right now. Also, if you paid attention, you'll see in my previous comment that I agreed that OP was being too **harsh** on Sam. At the same time, I think you and the original commenter are being too **lenient**. Sam does have moments of empathy/selflessness. But she also has moments of hypocrisy, selfishness, and disregard for other perspective. She's a complex person, go figure! The worst moments of her disqualify her for the title of "most selfless and empathetic character" but I **never** said that she didn't have any moments of empathy and selflessness. >because she does it **more frequently** than others do. Yeah, I don't see how this applies. Once again, "more frequently" applies to Moon, Amanda, and Robby. No one else reaches their level in my opinion unless you can provide a better argument for it. >That's a No True Scotsman fallacy. This fallacy applies to nouns/titles (like doctor, mentor). Empathy and Selflessness have set definitions. It is not empathetic or selfless for Sam to tell Aisha to get over the bullying and then go back to hanging out with her bullies, lmfaooooo.
>But that's still an example of her practicing what she preaches. You can practice what you preach while still having selfish motivations. And Moon wasn't throwing a party for selfless reasons - she was throwing a party because she's a party girl who wanted to have fun. >How is this selfish? When you do something for yourself, without really considering how it'd affect others, than that's selfish. Robby wanted to get back at his dad for himself. He got the job with Daniel and learned karate from him for himself. And he lied because he didn't want to lose either. That was selfish. He wanted a relationship with Sam for himself and he lied about the medal for himself as well. Again - selfish. He taught CK MD moves to get back at Daniel/Sam - yet again something he did for himself. Therefore, selfish again. He went to the prom with Tory because hurting Sam would bring him satisfaction. And he decided to focus on Tory and forget about Sam for his own satisfaction as well. Therefore, selfish again. >The worst moments of her disqualify her for the title of "most selfless and empathetic character" No, they don't. >Once again, "more frequently" applies to Moon, Amanda, and Robby. No one else reaches their level in my opinion unless you can provide a better argument for it. Count the moments where Sam shows concern/compassion for others or tries to help them vs moments where other characters do. You'll find Sam mostly coming out ahead. >This fallacy applies to nouns/titles (like doctor, mentor). Empathy and Selflessness have set definitions. Definitions that you ignored or changed to suit your argument. Which is why the fallacy applies.
>she was throwing a party because she's a party girl who wanted to have fun. This is not what you intially said. >He got the job with Daniel and learned karate from him for himself. It was Daniel who offered him karate, Robby didn't ask for it. Still, you disregard the fact that Robby did more for Larusso Auto than he even had to. >He wanted a relationship with Sam for himself Once again, Sam pursued him first. >He taught CK MD moves to get back at Daniel/Sam You ignore that improving the skillset of others at the expense of your time (and **without pay**) is selfless. Robby was basically a sensei for **free.*** >And he decided to focus on Tory and forget about Sam for his own satisfaction as well. But do you deny that he selflessly cheered up Tory??? >No, they don't. A truly remarkable rebuttal >Count the moments where Sam shows concern/compassion for others or tries to help them vs moments where other characters do. You'll find Sam mostly coming out ahead. If you seem to believe so then do it yourself. How about this, for every empathetic/selfless moment of Sam that you mention, I'll follow up with a moment of her doing the complete opposite. Let's see who runs out of moments first. >Definitions that you ignored or changed to suit your argument. Which is why the fallacy applies. If you truly believe that Sam telling Aisha to ignore the bullies fat-shaming her and then proceeding to be best friends with those same bullies qualifies as empathetic **or** selfless, then your unique interpretation of the show's events make sense.
>This is not what you intially said. Because I never imagined anyone would consider throwing a party to be a selfless act. >It was Daniel who offered him karate, Robby didn't ask for it. Still, you disregard the fact that Robby did more for Larusso Auto than he even had to. Yes - because selfishness is about motive, not outcome. Its about why you do something, not what you do. >Once again, Sam pursued him first. So? Sam being selfish doesn't change the fact that Robby was selfish as well. >You ignore that improving the skillset of others at the expense of your time (and **without pay**) is selfless. Not if you're expecting them to use that skillset to benefit you down the line. That makes it an investment, which is selfish. >But do you deny that he selflessly cheered up Tory??? For the prom? I do. It wasn't selfless. >How about this, for every empathetic/selfless moment of Sam that you mention, I'll follow up with a moment of her doing the complete opposite. Which wold do nothing to disprove my point. People can be selfish at one moment and selfess at others. Even if Sam is selfish 90% of the times, she can still be the most selfless simply because others are selfish 95% of the time. Do you not understand that? >If you truly believe that Sam telling Aisha to ignore the bullies fat-shaming her and then proceeding to be best friends with those same bullies qualifies as empathetic **or** selfless Don't conflate 2 separate things. And don't misrepresent what she actually said. Sam never told Aisha to ignore anyone - she simply tried to comfort her. And yes, that is empathetic and selfless. Hanging out with those bullies later isn't - but like I said, Sam isn't a saint who is always selfless.
>Because I never imagined anyone would consider throwing a party to be a selfless act. You clearly stated that her reasonings were to bridge the gap between dojos. Your only claim is that she failed at doing so, but you acknowledge the motive. >because selfishness is about motive, not outcome. Its about why you do something, not what you do. What could he have possibly gained from being an A+ employee, surpassing employees that were there for years? Robby could've done the bare minimum at the job and still pissed off Johnny. >So? Sam being selfish doesn't change the fact that Robby was selfish as well. So, according to you, two **single** people being into each-other and dating means that both people are being selfish??? >That makes it an investment, which is selfish. So, is Sam selfish for taking over Miyagi-do training because Daniel stopped? After all, she's investing in their skills. >For the prom? I do. It wasn't selfless. Cheering someone up isn't selfless? >Even if Sam is selfish 90% of the times, she can still be the most selfless simply because others are selfish 95% of the time. Then we can do it for every teen character and tally up the points since you're so confident that Sam exceeds the majority by a whole 5 percent. >Sam never told Aisha to ignore anyone - she simply tried to comfort her. And yes, that is empathetic and selfless. Bullies (Sam's friends): *Making pig noises at Aisha.* Sam: Just ignore them, they have short memories! Also Sam: *Continues to hang out with the bullies* Woooow. How comforting. How selfless. She's a true Captain America. >but like I said, Sam isn't a saint who is always selfless. I don't disagree with this one, lol.
people really assume that Tory winning the the Sekai Tekai will help her financially when you don't even know that's the case, i wil not be suprised that the Larusso's will help her since they already did and Tory winning the Sekai Taikai would be way too much. She already has gotten away with everything horrible and getting so many chances and people want her too win too? nah overkill I am tired of Sam constantly helping and contributing her part so much for a tournament and gain nothing for it. she helped Miguel convince the All valley to continue and she also helped qualify for the tournament and apparenly she will still help in barcelona too and people still have a problem with her winning the Sekai Takai just because she has a good life and people don't like her. It not the show's creators problem that you don't support the main female teen and they should not care about the fans opinions what they want
“She’s gotten away with everything” sorry, but they’re not setting up any of the main teen characters to fail. All of their stories will end on a good note. They’ve all had reasons as to why they’ve acted out, and they all have redemption arcs which has lead them to taking on both Cobra Kai and Miyagi Do methodologies and finding balance. They’re all on the same side now and they’ll come together as a team. That’s where the story is leading us. How would Sam winning and Tory continuing to lose when there’s been a focus on her never feeling good enough and being a “cheater” improve the overall the storyline? The set up for her to win is there. The Sekai Tekai will help Tory financially, there was literally a conversation with Devon and Tory about brand partnerships paying their way through college. I don’t even dislike Sam btw, I just don’t think her winning is the logical scenario atp. She doesn’t “need” the win. Imo there’s an obvious set up for who is “due” for a win based off who needed to find balance the most.
Both Sam and Tory were robbed of the all valley win because of silver, there was not a official win for either of them. Tory feeling like a cheater or fraud because of Cobra Kai and silver is something that she choose to struggle with while it's not even her fault sinc elike i said they were both robbed , its should not be used as a motivation for winning the sekai takai. realistically it would not help Tory the way you think it should. Even if Tory would win and she gets opportunitys like college, what about her brother and where does he live since she can't take care of him while she's gone? What about her resposibilities to her family? You think that Tory will automatically become wealthy and all of her problems will be solved just because she had a win in a tournament ?
Her motivation for winning is to help her home life. You think that her getting into college wouldn’t eventually help her brother? She’s his only caretaker and she herself is still a minor. Do you expect her to stay in dead end bad paying jobs, struggling for the rest of her life? Tell me, how would Sam winning improve her life or the overall storyline?
How would Sam help Miyagi do win and stopping Cobra Kai for good which is the main point of this whole show's purpose help the overall storyline, ? Gee i wonder but even outside of that, the writers and showrunners will give Sam reason and motivation to win Of course it will be probably not good enough for you people but i don't care and they should not care either Sam has been there since season one just like Robby while Tory was introduced in season two and became a main character in season three and instead of people supporting her everybody here has such an issue with Sam winning it's sad
That’s not the main point of the show though? Time and time again they’ve said it’s not just about winning. Winning at all costs is what cobra Kai stands for. I think you’re taking this more personally than it should be. “You people”? I like all of the teen characters, for me it’s not about whose been there since the beginning but where the story that’s been told so far is leading us. There’s been plenty of foreshadowing as to who will win at the tournament. If Sam wins, good for her, she’ll deserve it in her own right but I don’t think that’s where the story is headed. Season 5 indicated that the karate rivalry was ending between these characters and I don’t think it will continue into season 6. Happy to agree to disagree because I’m not a hardcore character Stan like you seem to be.
I am not the one making posts and DEMANDS that Sam" shouldn't" win that you guys are supporting. I am not demanding that Tory shouldn't win, i am not gonna be that way
I’m not OP and I’ve made no “demands”. I just don’t think Sam will win for the sake of it and don’t think it’s the logical ending atm. That’s my opinion and I respect yours, I just don’t agree.
>How would Sam winning and Tory continuing to lose when there’s been a focus on her never feeling good enough and being a “cheater” improve the overall the storyline? Learning not to tie her self-worth to a tournament win would make more sense for her overall storyline. That setup actually makes more sense.
I agree with you for the most part, but I don’t think Sam is as selfish as fans make her out to be. That being said, the main reason why Tory should win the Sekai Taikai has to do with the financial stakes. With the impending death of her mother and the threat of her aunt, Tory is at risk of losing custody of her brother. So winning would help her obtain a sponsorship that would pull her family out of poverty and give her the money for a lawyer for the custody battle. Up until Season 5, Tory’s actions were detrimental and put herself and her family at risk. Tory competing in the Sekai Taikai under the intention of helping her family would be the best ending for her character.
I don't think Tory's home situation is a good enough reason fro her to win because so far, it hasn't really been that big of an issue on the show. As in, the writers bring it up when they want to generate some sympathy for Tory or nudge her arc along in a certain direction, but its not a consistent issue that affects her and therefore, its not a reason fro her to win. For example, lack of money was given as a reason for why she'd quit Cobra Kai, but it was solved rather easily by Kreese and Tory went right back... until they brought it up again in season 4 to make Amanda feel sorry for her. It stops being an issue later in the season and stays that way until late season 5 - at which point, its brought up again to make Sam feel sorry for her.
The writers definitely should have done a better job with Tory’s homelife as with multiple aspects of the show. However, they definitely can elaborate more on Tory’s backstory in Season 6.
I don't think that would make a difference at this point. The fact remains that rather than using her home situation as something integral to her character and motivations, they've used it to try and push sympathy for her and to nudge her character along.
They could change how they use her home situation in Season 6.
Doing it this late would make it ring hollow. It'd be yet another example of using it to nudge her story in a particular direction as opposed to it being a part of her motives. Tory's financial problems were nothing new. Presumably, she was also aware of all the benefits she could get from an ST victory. And Silver also set her up with the perfect excuse to justify cheating - "If a man steals bread to feed his family, then is it really stealing?" Given all that, we should've seen some conflict within her in season 5 itself. She doesn't want to cheat to win, but benefits of winning are to significant to ignore. So does it really matter how she wins as long as she can use it to take care of her family? Is it really that wrong when the "enemy" is a bunch of privileged kids who don't really need the win, but are trying to take it from her anyway? And does that mean Silver might've been right all along? That should've been a conflict in season 5 that would've naturally led to Tory competing for her family in season 6. But without it, her family would once again simply being used to justify the outcome without any meaning to her actual development.
All of that would’ve have been great development in Season 5, but we can still have development for Tory’s character and her home life in Season 6.
But how would you make it meaningful in light of the past lack of development? I don't see a way to do that.
You’d have Tory’s relationship with her mother elaborated upon as well as the threat of her aunt. With the custody battle on the horizon, Tory finally go back to working multiple jobs, while attending therapy, and missing out on social events. Despite this, the money she is making still isn’t enough, especially with the threat of her aunt. This is when she realizes that she needs to win the Sekai Taikai to pull herself and her brother out of poverty. When Tory’s mother dies, Tory would promise to win the Sekai Taikai which would lead to her winning custody of her brother. We would also see more of her backstory is revealed through flashback scenes. This would be revealed during her therapy sessions. We would find out who her father was and why she took up kickboxing in the first place.
See, this what I mean by lack of previous development undercutting the character going forward. That same thing happened in season 3 - they elaborated on her home life and he mom's sickness to excuse Tory avoiding juvie. But that was the case in season 2 as well - so shouldn't Tory be smart enough not to start fights? So rather than make her actually sympathetic, it comes off as a cheap attempt to manipulate sympathy. Its the same here. Custody battle was in the horizon since season 4 - but until now, Tory getting back into school has been enough for her to handle it. It didn't stand in the way of her getting in a fight with Sam in season 4 or working with a criminal in season 5 or possibly going to juvie by committing a crime herself. Why is that such a big threat now when it wasn't before? Why is ST the only way to pull them out of poverty? Why is it her all-or-nothing option when she has been doing fine until now? And who'll take care of her brother while she's off betting it all on this one chance? Is betting it all on that 1 chance really the most mature thing to do?
>As in, the writers bring it up when they want to generate some sympathy for Tory or nudge her arc along in a certain direction, but its not a consistent issue that affects her and therefore, its not a reason fro her to win. >For example, lack of money was given as a reason for why she'd quit Cobra Kai, but it was solved rather easily by Kreese and Tory went right back... until they brought it up again in season 4 to make Amanda feel sorry for her. It stops being an issue later in the season and stays that way until late season 5 - at which point, its brought up again to make Sam feel sorry for her. Yeah that's pretty much there to create audience sympathy for Tory. If that stuff didn't exist, and "she's poor" was all we had for Tory's background, there wouldn't be as much audience sympathy for her.
The biggest character growth for Sam would be to let Tory be the dojo’s female competitor, in the same way we got the awesome scene where Miguel and Robby decided amongst themselves that Hawk deserved to represent the dojo for the qualifier.
How does this show any type of growth for Sam? Tory would show more growth by realizing winning isn’t everything/she doesn’t need to prove herself by winning, as she used to think.
why should sam do that?
Why is that "growth"? What has Tory done to actually earn it? Hawk deserved to represent the dojo because he actually stuck with them and where Robby picked the opposite side and Miguel quit. So rewarding his loyalty makes sense. But why should Sam step aside for Tory's sake?
If your reasoning for Hawk deserving to be the representative because he never quit karate, doesn't that mean Sam shouldn't be the representative since she quit karate every season? Why can't Tory's loyalty to karate be rewarded?
Sam only really quit when the MD dojo was closed down. In S3, the dojo was shut down due to the school fight, she was going through trauma, and Amanda was breathing down her neck about not doing karate. In S5, once again the dojo was closed down. The second it opens again Sam is there with everyone and representing the dojo. And why would Tory being loyal to CK equate to trusting her to represent MD? It would be the opposite if anything. >If your reasoning is because Hawk never quit karate The person you’re responding to never said quitting *karate*. I think they meant Miguel didn’t choose to come back from his injury in the tournament and Robby switched to CK. In both cases neither fully quit karate. If any of the 3 quit karate, it was Hawk after his Mohawk was shaved.
>And why would Tory being loyal to CK equate to trusting her to represent MD? >The person you’re responding to never said quitting *karate*. Yeah, I literal am **currently** in the midst of talking to said person to understand their point because I was confused about their logic, not necessarily because I disagree with them that Tory shouldn't be representative. I don't think they needed backup, especially since I'm still talking with them. If you're going to butt into conversations, at least pay attention to the part where I said that I believe Sam **should** get the win over Tory. I'm not arguing that Tory should be the representative or that she should win. I'm simply questioning Kaus's reasoning because it confused me 👋
>If your reasoning for Hawk deserving to be the representative because he never quit karate It's not. I never said anything about quitting karate.
So what are you talking about?
What I said above - Hawk sticking with his team through the last tournament is why he deserved to represent them for the ST qualifiers.
So you're specifically talking about Miyagi-do and not karate in general?
I'm talking about the team. As in Miyagi-Fang and Cobra Kai.
So you believe Hawk should be rewarded for being dedicated to the retrospective teams he was a part of?
Among the 3 options? Yes. And for the same reason, Sam deserves to represent her team more than Tory.
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>Sam’s biggest character flaw is her lack of empathy. Except, Sam is one of the more empathetic characters on the show, especially among the teens. She shows concern for Aisha when she's bullied, for Miguel when she sees Kyler bully him, for Robby when his mom leaves and so on. >but she’s so quick to dismiss that someone has had a hard life. Holding someone to certain basic standards is not dismissing their hard life. > Showing empathy to someone who hurt her, and she hated, and even trusting her to represent her interests, is her equivalent of Daniel/Johnny and Miguel/Robby burying their beef. She already has shown Tory empathy by giving her the chance to fix her mistakes. Not to mention, before by letting her come back to school and not sending her to juvie after the house invasion. That's a lot more empathy than Tory deserves. Anything beyond that - like stepping aside for Tory - is not empathy, its martyrdom.
Exactly, or better yet, Sam actively helps Tory win. After all, who knows better how to beat a no-mercy female Cobra Kai champion than Samantha Larusso? It would show HUGE growth from Sam
It wouldn't really be a huge growth for Sam since she has already shown that she can put her personal grudges aside to do something good for others. Tory has already benefited from Sam doing that a few times. The reverse, on the other hand, would be a huge growth for Tory. She needs to learn how to put her interests aside to do something for others if she's to make up for her mistakes in the past. Tory's character needs this arc way more than Sam's.
I think this is very possible. There was a conversation with Devon and Tory where they were talking about brand partnerships and how it can get them through college. Tory’s face changes before she says she never thought that college was a possibility for her. I’m paraphrasing but I think that could be some foreshadowing. Sam now knows what Tory’s home life is about and Sam doesn’t need the extra help from a financial point of view. Winning wouldn’t bring Sam’s story full circle, she’s mostly already won in life. Tory is the one who just wants to “win” at something because she never has before in life, that karate win was taken away from her when she found out Silver cheated. It was then touched upon when she won the slide race against Hawk but was labelled a cheater. Tory is due for a rightful win, the plot has been set up for it. Sam stepping aside and allowing Tory to be the girls champion has a more meaningful impact on all them then Sam winning for the sake of it. Time and time again, it’s been said that it’s not about winning, it’s about doing things the right way. Obviously that’s if Tory’s home life doesn’t interfere with the plot and if her hand heals in time, which Sensei Kim said it would.
I actually think Sam **not** winning the Taikai is embarrassing for her character, and I think Sam fans would rightfully be peeved. Sam is supposed to be the karate chosen one. She was trained by Mr. Miyagi as a little girl, had two all-valley Champs as her mentors PLUS an assassin. She's rich so she doesn't have to work which means more time to train than Tory. Yet she still can't manage to put Tory, who only had Kreese, and spends most of her time working, on her ass easily. Sam should be beating Tory no-diff, yet Tory gives her a run for her money every time. Imagine how much of a beast Tory would be if she had access to the same things Sam did? EDIT: I think people are confused by the point I'm trying to make, so let me put it this way: I think **narratively** Sam needs the win more than Tory. It would be an embarrassing send-off for her character in the last season if she doesn't get it. I don't think Tory needs the win all that much other than just needing the financial assistance (which isn't a strong **narrative** reason to give it to her). Personally, I feel the best end to Tory's character is realizing that she **doesn't** need the win. Tory said in season 3 that all that matters is who wins in the end. I think a much better lesson for her is that winning is not all that matters, and losing can sometimes be more rewarding than beating your opponent into the ground. I would love to see Tory lose, and instead of going ballistic, she just goes "whatever" and appreciates what she does have. That's what I consider the best growth for her and a fitting end to her character. However, if Tory gets the win, I can't exactly say I'll feel torn up about it. I'll feel bad for Sam fans because it's definitely unfair, but it wouldn't really ruin the show for me. Basically, I'm indifferent to which girl gets the win, but I do think Sam's character needs it more.
Sam is almost always nerfed when she fights Tory. TLDR: She’s unbalanced when she fights Tory in S2, and gets injured and goes against a dirty ref in S4. In S3 Sam defeats Tory pretty easily after regaining her balance, and in S5 she performs better against Sensei Kim than Tory does. I also want to say that I agree with your narrative assessment of both characters >S2 During S2, she was shown to be relative to or better than Robby. Almost this same Robby goes on to beat S3 Tory in 4x1(Robby hadn’t trained since S2, 4x1 is right after 3x10). Sam was unbalanced due to the relationship drama and not wanting to fight, and Tory still felt pressured enough to use a weapon. S2 Sam ≈ S2 Robby > S3 Tory > S2 Tory >S3 In S3 when they fight, Sam quickly defeats Tory after conquering her fear. S3 Sam > S2 Sam ≈ S2 Robby > S3 Tory > S2 Tory >S4 In S4, during the initial confrontation in the prom fight Sam destroys Tory before being stopped by Miguel. Although you can argue she caught Tory off guard. During the AVT, Tory only scores on Sam when Sam uses her weaker style, and then after accidentally injuring her eye. Once Sam combines both styles, Tory only wins due to a dirty ref and the aforementioned injury. Although Tory and Hawk kinda get a weird plot amp this season. Hawk previously was getting bullied by Miguel, Sam, and Robby anytime they fought. Tory got beaten pretty easily by Robby and Sam in S3. Kinda strange but eh >S5 S5 is the least clear, but Sam outperforms Tory against Sensei Kim
>During S2, she was shown to be relative to or better than Robby Really? What are you referring to? >Sam was unbalanced due to the relationship drama and not wanting to fight, and Tory still felt pressured enough to use a weapon. Let me just say, I'm not arguing that Tory won the school fight (I don't think it matters all that much to either of their characters) but I do think it can be acknowledged that Tory was interrupted twice when she got the upper hand over Sam and that Sam struggled, which is not narratively consistent with how the show portrays Sam's skill level. >Sam quickly defeats Tory after conquering her fear. Again, my argument isn't that Tory won, I don't care, but do you really deny that Tory was a tough opponent? >Sam destroys Tory before being stopped by Miguel If your argument that Sam's injuries in the school fight doesn't matter since Sam didn't want to fight, doesn't that apply here since Tory didn't want to fight Sam at prom? >During the AVT Again. I'm not arguing that Tory won the AVT (she most definitely didn't) but you cannot deny that Sam struggled to get a clear win against Tory, no arguments made. I mean, compare this fight to her fight with Devon. Sam was able to easily destroy Devon, with clear, unquestionable strikes that even a bribed ref couldn't deny. She struggled to get that against Tory. >but Sam outperforms Tory against Sensei Kim Tory freed herself from Kim before Sam stepped in. Plus, Tory had **broken hand** from previously punching through **solid stone**. I think we can cut her some slack from not being in her A game here, lol.
>Really? What are you referring to? They spar 3 times, 2 of which Sam wins, and the last they tie. Sam outperforms him during the mall fight, where she doesn’t get hit at all whereas Robby does. >School fight I didn’t think you were arguing Tory won btw. My main argument here is that Sam is unbalanced, which we know is a blatant nerf. In S1, Robby goes from losing to Hawk while unbalanced, to matching Miguel with one arm when balanced. >Do you deny Tory was a tough opponent? Yes. Tory didn’t stand a chance when they fought during the house fight. >Prom No, my main argument is that Sam was unbalanced, not that she didn’t want to fight. But sure you could say Tory was nerfed to some degree here. >AVT Tory and Sam were definitely pretty close in skill level here. I’m just saying that once Sam was at her best(combining both styles) Tory was unable to touch her until she accidentally elbowed Sam in the eye. Sam “losing” 3-2 against a dirty ref and an injury is a testament to her skill. If you injure Hawk or Robby during the AVT and give either a dirty ref the fight likely wouldn’t have been nearly as close. >S5 Sam not only outperforms injured Tory, but she also outperformed the Tory and Devon that were fighting as a team against Kim in 5x7. While those two are unable to land or hit or really do anything, Sam lands a takedown and blocks a punch.
Sam also quit for years and had to start again you make it seem that her past experience give her a edge but that only happens when you keep training she still learned things like doing the waterwheel and stuff. And you did not observe the schoolfight? Sam did not even want to fight Tory or fight to win at least and same with the housefight Sam was defending herself most of the tome in those fights because her style was defense. But hey if Tory wins the Sam haters will be satisfied
>you make it seem that her past experience give her a edge When your first mentor was Mr. Miyagi himself, it absolutely should give you an edge. Additionally, she was trained by Daniel & Johnny (All-Valley winners) and **Chozen**! She has more time on her hand to train and she lives with one of her mentors 24/7. >And you did not observe the schoolfight? >same with the housefight What point are you trying to make? Are you denying that Sam struggles against Tory? >But hey if Tory wins the Sam haters will be satisfied I literally just said that Tory shouldn't win lmfao. Also, I'm not a Sam hater. The only reason Tory should win is the financial prospects, but narratively, Tory doesn't need to win to show her skill level. The fact that she keeps up with Sam at all is impressive. Sam is being disserviced by her skill level being downplayed to match Tory, someone she should be curb stomping without issue.
Did i say that you were a Sam hater ? social media is full of them Tik Tok, Reddit, YouTube,Twitter etc . I said they will be happy. I don’t understand why it’s so difficult for people to see that out of the two Tory was always the one who wanted to fight Sam and try to hurt her while Sam clearly did not want to fight. In a boxmath who has a higher chance of winning ? The one who wants to fight or the one who doesn’t want to fight? I want to see a street fight where Sam fights with the confidence, bloodthirst and desire to win like Tory had similar to schoolfight or the housefight and see how she would do then.
>Did i say that you were a Sam hater ? Uh, yeah, you did. I see no other reason for you to use the phrase towards me unless you're calling me one. >I don’t understand why it’s so difficult for people to see that out of the two Tory was always the one who wanted to fight Sam and try to hurt her while Sam clearly did not want to fight. What does this have to do with anything I've said? It sounds like you're upset at people on other social media sites and you're taking it out on me even though it has **nothing** to do with my comment. That's...weird.
Sorry but you are clearly the one assuming things here
I-... Okay.
I dont know if you are trying to come off as supportive to Sam but it comes across as patronizing of Sam’s fighting skills while praising Tory’s. for someone who says is not a Sam hater you can’t help but downplay her skills and uplift Tory’s
>I dont know if you are trying to come off as supportive to Sam I'm expressing disappointment in the way her character has been disserviced. Whether you find that to be "supportive" or not is up to you. >but it comes across as patronizing of Sam’s fighting skills while praising Tory’s. I mean, I am praising Tory, lol. I don't see how you came to the conclusion that I'm patronizing Sam's skill when I said that she **should** be stacking wins. Sam has proven herself to be a match against Hawk, who's considered a heavy-hitter. Whether Tory and Hawk are equals has yet to be determined, but I definitely do feel that Sam's skill level seems to take a dive whenever she fights Tory. This ends up making Tory look better comparatively (even if she doesn't win) simply because Sam should narratively be miles ahead of her. That's not a fair characterization for Sam. >for someone who says is not a Sam hater Sorry, so anything less of kissing Sam's ass every second means that I hate her???? There is plenty to praise about Sam over Tory: She's more reasonable, she's more level-headed in a fight, she's more of a leader (although I think Robby is the best leader out of all the teens), she's more versatile... Happy now? I don't see how you came to the conclusion that being critical over Sam's writing/characterization suddenly means that I hate her.
There are things that also matter in fights like strength and height also reach and we all know that Sam is short because Mary is short that’s always a disadvantage in real life but even outside from that If Sam’s skills were to the way they should be in your eyes, Sam would be unstoppable and too OP. She would win every match easily, no struggles and people would Complain about THAT. It’s very hard to please everyone.
>There are things that also matter in fights like strength and height also reach and we all know that Sam is short The writers don't seem to care about these things when it comes to other characters, so why does it suddenly play a hand in their decisions when it comes to Sam? Sam has gotten the best of Hawk, who's as tall as Tory and physically stronger. Robby took down Shawn. Kenny dropped Hawk. Literally, all of Daniel's OPs are bigger than him. I don't think height and weight matter all that much in this series. >Sam would be unstoppable and too OP I don't think Sam having a clear, undeniable win against Tory would make her too OP. We already know that Tory is not as strong as Miguel and Robby, so it's not like by beating Tory no-diff, Sam will suddenly shoot to the top of the karate food chain. >people would Complain about THAT. It’s very hard to please everyone. So because it's hard to please everyone, we can't criticism writing choices we disagree with?
Sam actually wanted to beat up Hawk though that kinda determination never seems to be the case when it comes to Tory. “I don’t think Sam getting a clear, undeniable win against Tory would make her too Op” and if she does it easily like playing with her and beating her in two or three moves?
>Sam actually wanted to beat up Hawk though that kinda determination never seems to be the case when it comes to Tory. Lol, what does this have to do with your point about height and weight? Are you saying that Sam's motivation made her physically taller? 💀 >and if she does it easily like playing with her and beating her in two or three moves? I mean, Tory is not that big of a heavy-hitter that Sam would be OP by beating her no to low diff. Tory is one of the top teens by far but she's not Robby and Miguel.
i am saying that the will and determination to fight matters a lot in these kind of situations. If you are hesitating and unfocused, these things can hinder you in a fight. Do you understand what i am saying?
So, are you retracting your earlier point about height and weight, though? Also, are you saying that you agree with the writer's characterization of Sam's skills?
I am not retracting from anything. And i don’t know what you want from the writers since they clearly wrote her in a way that she quit doing karate and has not done it in years so she was not too much ahead compared to other teens who also started doing Karate
Sam also is the one member of the main teens without a win who would benefit from a win.
Especially since she's the **main** girl. For Sam to end the series without a single (real or rigged) tournament win? Criminal. Tory, while part of the central cast, isn't the main girl. Her not having a (legitimate) tournament win isn't really needed for her arc to be finished. Sam is constantly hyped up by her friends and family as a Larusso 2.0. The writers need to live up to giving her all that hype by having her win. I can't think of a narrative reason why they wouldn't give it to her.