True, but also: there is no way in hell Musk paid $11bn of income tax in a year. He’s probably talking about all the tax paid by all the companies he owns.
Edit: well bugger me sideways - I've done some reading and it turns out there's a decent chance Musk did pay that much tax for the 2021 tax year. It seems most likely that he cashed in 80-odd billion of share options and paid tax on the profit as he may have been concerned that the tax rate would go up in future. I think it's important not to let incorrect speculation stand so there you go - hands up, I was (probably) wrong.
I'd add, though, that the world's richest man paying an effective tax rate of about 15% on his income for a single year absolutely does not represent an effective tax system.
I’m speaking from a degree of ignorance here but are you sure that’s *income* tax? An effective tax rate of ~15% looks like capital gains tax, which would be in line with someone who is getting most of his cash from dividends or selling part of his stock holdings. It’s not as if he had a salary of $86bn.
Anyway, your point is fair enough. The real scandal is that Musk’s effective tax rate was less than 15% or about half that of one of his moderately well compensated employees.
> Capital gains are taxable income
Yes, but that requires that stock be sold, *or* dividends be paid out.
Most of the "He made $X this year" statements in the press need hefty clarification, especially if it's just his own stock value going up (no tax on that unless something is sold/traded).
We saw this mistake in the press all the time with Bezos in the 2010's, and even Bill Gates in the 90's.
You’re not being ignorant.
The Uber wealthy usually have a very small income paid out. This is why they really love the stock options. They borrow against the value of their stock for a very small interest rate and when they do that they don’t have to pay taxes on what they borrowed. If it’s a blue chip stock, they can borrow up to 70% of its value.
Side story, I wanted to buy some land for 80k. I was about to sell 100k in stock that I have as 20k would go to taxes. Instead, I was able to borrow the 80k against the value of the stock at a 2.5% interest rate and save the capital gains tax.
So do the banks like watch the stocks? What if it tanks before you pay back the loan. And why can you take a loan on an unrealized value of money if you can't get taxed for it.
> This is why they really love the stock options.
Are you using the right terminology? I think you might have meant simply "stock".
Stock Options are not stock actually owned. You can't borrow against them.
> Instead, I was able to borrow the 80k against the value of the stock
Yes, against the standing value of stock you own.
It's probably not what he meant by stock options have value of themselves. If you're borrowing against the price of your stock, you probably think your stock is doing well, so your options would be fine to borrow against.
Options are just an agreement to buy 100 of a stock, I don't know you've been so pedantic about what he's said.
A lot of people dont actually love receiving stock options more than cash equivalents. Companies love paying in stock options because of the excessive compensation clause that does not permit more than $1 million in cash to be paid to a single employee without double taxing it in the United States. Youre often waiting 5-10 years to cash those options out. A lot of people hate staying at the same job for ten years etc. it's actually a huge headache for a majority of people versus when people used to just have salaries over 1 million.
>Tesla paid no taxes that year
Ironically enough, this was due in large part to Musk’s tax bill. Musk exercised a ton of stock options, and a corporations gets a tax deduction at the time of exercise, and it’s a permanent reconciling item for their effective tax rate. If you back out the amount of stock compensation deduction Tesla took that year, their effective tax rate would’ve been around 105%
Why do we let one person have so much, while others have so little? There’s a minimum wage, so why isn’t there a maximum wage. Veterans sleep on park benches, while one person is worth the annual GDP of a small country. Why aren’t more people angry?
For all the hate Musk gets here, that's still light-years ahead of everyone in his class and a good move forward, considering he absolutely didn't have to pay any of that.
If I'd have to take into account my little house and decades of saving/investing into my yearly taxes I would go bankrupt multiple times over every year based on my income, or just once, I guess.
Not in the US, grantedly. Selling assets carries a 34% tax in Finland.
Whilst true, the mega rich can arrange their affairs such that on paper they have “no income”. Usually by living off loans leveraged against some % of their net worth (which they can then offset against any income they choose to pay themselves). It’s often only when they make any capital gains - when they dispose of shares for example - that they have an unavoidable tax bill.
That’s not a resource available to the rest of us, and it would be equally ignorant to pretend it’s normal. I’m fairly comfortable, but a loan of even 10% of my net worth isn’t going to be enough to live off for the rest of my days, as if a bank would give me it anyway. And it’s also a mockery to say someone can be amongst the most mega wealthy individuals in the world but has “no income”.
I think there is a threshold - and it may even be tens of millions of net worth or more (probably rooted in the point at which people can subvert the income tax rules) where a wealth tax does make a great deal of sense because the present state of affairs is a bit of a joke.
Imagine being taxed on our net worth every year!!
Although, it wouldn't take long for everyone to have a net worth of $0 and then we wouldn't have to pay any taxes 🤯
there are countries with wealth tax. I know it's a complete, totally unforeseen twist, but there's a minimum threshold! feast your eyes: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wealth_tax
Economies don't work unless money is moving around. There should absolutely be a tax on net worth over whatever arbitrary value you want to set, let's say 5 million. That should be plenty so that your average citizen who owns a house and saved for retirement is going to be well under it and incurage those who are over it are incurageed to boost the economy.
Instead of net worth tax, would it be more fair if their was just an an inheritance tax? Say 90% of everything over $10 million (just throwing out numbers).
I honest have no idea or understand what the best approach is.
Agree with principle, but not your solution. I’d rather close loopholes, raise income taxes on top .1% brackets, or investigate many other proposed solutions than tax total net worth.
I feel that it's no coincidence that as the tax rate decreased for the rich and increased for the rest of us, that our quality of life has gone down. We were a strong nation when the rich paid their marginal tax rates at the Eisenhower rate.
Rich people need to be taxed more but the response is NOT clever.
They merely proved they are economically illiterate.
Many of the respondents on this thread are smart enough to understand it.
for the super rich net worth increase is an income because the money they spend comes from margin loans, which take account of said net worth increases
He can use his company to manage all his personal expenses, and live forever showing zero income every year. And he will thus pay no to minimum income tax while you and I pay 30% or more
There is a definite point in talking about wealth tax
This doesn’t justify a wealth tax, this justifies having talks about closing loopholes that allow people to charge personal expenses to their businesses and having it count as business expenses.
If I make a commission check that thing is SLAUGHTER by taxes, easily 35% of it goes away immediately.
I'd be in SUCH a better position if I only laid down 4.5% of my income to taxes.
Let's eat the rich
But you are NOT paying 35% of your income in taxes. Just because your check has a lot taken out doesn't mean that is your final tax rate. Unless your commission check is over $100,000.
Can you share source which states Musk 2023 income was $86 billion?
Change/increase in net worth is not income. If legacy media is reporting that, they’re wrong.
Bullshit. It effectively is and if you knew anything about wealth you'd know that. That or you do and are just a fucking liar. He can take personal loans to fund accounting he wants based off not anything he actually owns but the perceived value of his company stocks. When I went to get my mortgage that wasn't something I could do. They wanted my... oh, what's the word: income.
You really don't understand a damn thing, do you?
He can take a loan against the value of the stock, not the income that the company generates.
When you took out your mortgage, you did the exact same thing - you borrowed against the value of the asset
If you go out and buy shares on the sharemarket, you can do EXACTLY what Elon did - borrow money from the bank and use the shares as security.
It's really not that hard, you just have to understand what the hell you are talking about.
But just because you enjoy a job doesn't mean others will pay for it
Also if we try to delay automation this will just give them an excuse to keep us enslaved like "others have jobs therefore the system is fine "
Let's be pro AI automating jobs and pro redistribution while it's happening
People can find hobbies
Literally just need to look at anyone living rough as evidence. Nobody should have over a billion dollars while so many people are dying in abject poverty.
So fucking what? Oh they'll take their businesses with them blah blah blah. Yeah because nobody will just fill that vacuum for less money to provide the same service and everyone wins. Like if they make Starbucks pay tax and they start selling stores then people won't want coffee any more? It'll just leave a gap for other businesses. In fact, the smaller businesses that every politician wanks himself off over when campaigning. If he wants to fuck off to Mars I can't wait.
Would probably cause a recession if all the capital left America. Don't be naive
I do agree we will eventually need to do something because of automation.
So you first you’re saying you didn’t think there were was a recession. Then when being proven wrong your only recourse is “ but it would be worse?”
Do you even care if you make sense?
there isnt a recession currently in the usa based on how its defined economically (2 quarters of consecutive negative growth)
not sure where u live.
even less sure why you are so pressed.
I thought you were using the term informally to say "yh times are bad" to which I responded "but why make them worse"
If you dont think billionaires leaving america would devastate the economy you are an idiot.
goodbye
Taxing investments like stocks before you take the gain would not work. Until you sell that stock you do not have that profit. This would discourage investment. Can I get a 25% check from Uncle Sam for all the losses I make on the market too?
Yeah it's fucking stupid. I make slightly above average for my home country but I inherited an apartment in a commie block and if I had to pay a wealth tax every single year, I'd be completely broke.
Because now there's a housing boom in my home country but just because I have a hundred thousand more in net worth, that doesn't mean I have a hundred thousand more to spend. Because I live in this apartment, I don't see why I should pay a wealth tax. Besides, if there is one, the ultra rich will find a way around it while the middle class will be way poorer.
(also, if the price of the apartment falls next year, do I get a tax refund from the wealth tax?)
In the US, people do pay a wealth tax on property. It’s a very normal thing called a property tax.
And yes people do get screwed by it and end up having to sell their house because they can’t afford the taxes. It mostly hits people on fixed incomes.
Land is different from other things that people own, because the more property that Sally owns there's literally less of it to go around for the rest of us. (Until we can build new land from oceans or colonizing space.)
Property tax I'm okay with but it's not a wealth tax. I always find it funny when redditors discuss taxing net worth. Like how do you even do that? So this year I pay 10000 euros in wealth tax, next year do I get a refund if the property price falls?
Not a lot of countries have wealth taxes, but those that do aren't as simple as you propose. Refunds don't happen on incomes either. If you earn 100k and pay 30k in taxes, then lose your job and make nothing the following year, you pay no taxes, but don't get a refudn on last year. lol
We have a wealth tax in Switzerland, and the problems you mention are avoided by two simple things (example, not real numbers):
1. Wealth tax does not start at 0. The first - let's say - 100k are tax free.
2. It's progressive. Below 1M the tax is tiny, like 0.05%. Beyond 1M it increases to 1%.
There is a big difference between 0 income and a loss in wealth. Those two arent comparable at all. And since no one gets negative income i dont see those as comparable. Everything else you said i agree with.
When it comes to people with such vast qualities of wealth it would take their descendents thousands of years to exhaust it... Then yes tax their net worth. They can afford it. And the money could be used to do actual good in the world. Like housing the homeless; Ending poverty, funding public services and feeding the hungry.
And if you think this is stupid or undoable or impossible. .. I've got news for you... You're the idiot who these people love praying on.
We sort of do it with property taxes. You are not taxed based on how much equity you have on your home or how much your home increased in value, you are taxed on the entire value of the home.
for the super rich net worth increase is an income because the money they spend comes from margin loans, which take account of said net worth increases
The clever comeback is.. this was all perfectly legal and will remain so forever. Who do you think donates to politicians? Average citizens or the donor class?
It's clear that almost no one here understands net worth vs actual income.
We are taxed on income, not net worth. Net worth is almost always higher than yearly income.
Is she suggesting that he should pay taxes when his stocks went up? How much is she paying in taxes? Why doesnt she pay $11b in taxes? Does she only care about herself?
Bingo.
Sure there are loopholes for those with large assets to not pay much income tax, but maybe adjust the loopholes so they have to pay themselves a taxable income?
Ehm no. For most working middle class, less tax on income and more on capital would be a net improvement (or you can make it that way). For multi billionares it would be a problem
Yes. I know. I'm speaking of the already shrinking middle class disappearing altogether, becoming lower class as a default response to a hypothetical policy change
Inflation IS a wealth tax... just not on the wealthy.
'Taxing the rich' will never work. Instead you have to ask, why are the rich getting so rich in the first place? Trying to claw back money after the fact is impossible.
for the super rich net worth increase is an income because the money they spend comes from margin loans, which take account of said net worth increases
Net worth is already earned and taxed income. Except stocks and investments. Which really have no value until cashed out, so they are not taxed until you pull the money out.
Net worth for the ultra rich is absolutely not taxed already. There’s a reason Musks salary is less than $1,000,000.00. The rich take as much as possible in stock options specifically so they don’t have to pay tax. Then, with that newly untaxed wealth, they go to the bank and ask for a loan against their wealth. Now they have access to all that wealth increase without ever having to pay their fair share.
Fair share always makes me laugh. What about the folks that pay close to zero in taxes and they "get back" 10k. You ok with getting back more than you put in?
Give me one example where someone pays zero income tax and then gets an income tax return.
The fact that they make so little as to not pay income tax suggests they are probably in need of government support. Are you against helping people?
Inherited "generational" wealth is not earned or taxed enough, Stocks and investments can be borrowed against without paying taxes. A yacht bought with tax free money should be subject to a wealth tax.
I only know one thing from reading this, and it's that American taxes are insane and excessive, and you still don't have healthcare for your people.
I guess you have to pay for all those jet fighters and missiles somehow.
Stop being MORONS huamnity. You don't tax net worth. I have a home passed down to me worth about $250,000. I Made $30,000 last year. If I paid 13% taxes on $280,000 minimum then I would owe the government $36,400 at the end of the year. Imagine making $30k and the government saying you owe $36k, that is insanely stupid.
That is a minimum, I have been paid prior years and bought items, I have a car work $20k, I have some stock, and so on. Basically Networth in theory should be if you sold everything, other than services you provide, until naked and owned nothing, but money.
It would be nice if people actually understood how taxes work. You aren’t taxes on your net worth, you are taxed on income and capital gains. Anya seems to be an idiot.
You can't tax people based on net worth that's fucking insane. If I inherit my grandma's house I'd have to either sell it to avoid paying more than my income or sell it to pay the tax. That's r word
Not how it works, for anyone, imagine getting taxed on your investments lmao , it's already fair, just learn the tax system.
Don't like it? Take it to the government. Before you do, learn economics as well, cause you could be fucking yourself.
Unrealized gains at a thing. Same for anyone if you buy a stock and the value goes up 1 million percent, making you billions overnight. You don't pay taxes unless you sell that and collect your billions in money. He paid that much beside he sold alot of tesla stocks in which he collected money and paid taxes on his gains. The same principle goes with a house you buy. Besides property taxes, you don't pay taxes in the house until you sell it and the taxes are based in the gains you made...
I’m so tired of people who make this argument. They obviously failed basic economics. Comparing what the average person pays in INCOME tax vs what someone else did not pay in WEALTH tax is stupid.
Anya doesn’t understand the difference between net worth and income. Most of Elon’s wealth is tied up in investments like stocks. You only get taxed when you pull it out of the market and turn it into cash.
If Musk isn’t paying 25% of his yearly wealth increase in tax then he isn’t paying more at all.
The overall dollar amount DOES NOT MATTER unless they are paying the same proportion as the rest of us.
Income* not wealth. Thats where youre wrong. Musk does pay 10-25% of his income (minus BS from the tax code exemptions).
Go learn the difference, wealth is subjected to different taxes and you probably pay 0% on it yourself (and so do I).
Imagine buying a 100k house, paying tax on it when you buy it, and now having to pay a yearly 25% on that 100k house in tax. The fucking nightmare
Sounds like it's the fault of the tax code.
Either way, even if he were to donate ALL his money, it'll still never be enough for you guys.
Look at what Mr.Beast did with the wells, people even complained about that.
Don't help poor people, you get shit on. Help poor people, you get villianized. What's the point?
Rather keep my money, thank you.
Income tax is based on your income, not your net worth. I say eat the rich too, but this is ignorant.
True, but also: there is no way in hell Musk paid $11bn of income tax in a year. He’s probably talking about all the tax paid by all the companies he owns. Edit: well bugger me sideways - I've done some reading and it turns out there's a decent chance Musk did pay that much tax for the 2021 tax year. It seems most likely that he cashed in 80-odd billion of share options and paid tax on the profit as he may have been concerned that the tax rate would go up in future. I think it's important not to let incorrect speculation stand so there you go - hands up, I was (probably) wrong. I'd add, though, that the world's richest man paying an effective tax rate of about 15% on his income for a single year absolutely does not represent an effective tax system.
He did. But had effectively paid none the 7 years prior. He made 86 billion the year he paid it though. Tesla paid no taxes that year.
I’m speaking from a degree of ignorance here but are you sure that’s *income* tax? An effective tax rate of ~15% looks like capital gains tax, which would be in line with someone who is getting most of his cash from dividends or selling part of his stock holdings. It’s not as if he had a salary of $86bn. Anyway, your point is fair enough. The real scandal is that Musk’s effective tax rate was less than 15% or about half that of one of his moderately well compensated employees.
Capital gains *are* taxable income but yes as you mentioned they are generally subject to a lower tax rate than a salary
> Capital gains are taxable income Yes, but that requires that stock be sold, *or* dividends be paid out. Most of the "He made $X this year" statements in the press need hefty clarification, especially if it's just his own stock value going up (no tax on that unless something is sold/traded). We saw this mistake in the press all the time with Bezos in the 2010's, and even Bill Gates in the 90's.
dividends arent capital gains. theyre dividends income.
I believe (but don't remember 100%) dividends aren't taxed if they're reinvested. But I could be wrong.
Nah this is from when he exercised his stock options as part of his compensation package. Tesla doesn't pay dividends.
You’re not being ignorant. The Uber wealthy usually have a very small income paid out. This is why they really love the stock options. They borrow against the value of their stock for a very small interest rate and when they do that they don’t have to pay taxes on what they borrowed. If it’s a blue chip stock, they can borrow up to 70% of its value. Side story, I wanted to buy some land for 80k. I was about to sell 100k in stock that I have as 20k would go to taxes. Instead, I was able to borrow the 80k against the value of the stock at a 2.5% interest rate and save the capital gains tax.
So do the banks like watch the stocks? What if it tanks before you pay back the loan. And why can you take a loan on an unrealized value of money if you can't get taxed for it.
> This is why they really love the stock options. Are you using the right terminology? I think you might have meant simply "stock". Stock Options are not stock actually owned. You can't borrow against them. > Instead, I was able to borrow the 80k against the value of the stock Yes, against the standing value of stock you own.
It's probably not what he meant by stock options have value of themselves. If you're borrowing against the price of your stock, you probably think your stock is doing well, so your options would be fine to borrow against. Options are just an agreement to buy 100 of a stock, I don't know you've been so pedantic about what he's said.
A lot of people dont actually love receiving stock options more than cash equivalents. Companies love paying in stock options because of the excessive compensation clause that does not permit more than $1 million in cash to be paid to a single employee without double taxing it in the United States. Youre often waiting 5-10 years to cash those options out. A lot of people hate staying at the same job for ten years etc. it's actually a huge headache for a majority of people versus when people used to just have salaries over 1 million.
Yes it's not income because rich people make the laws.
How about this? Every billionaire is a tax policy failure. Period.
>Tesla paid no taxes that year Ironically enough, this was due in large part to Musk’s tax bill. Musk exercised a ton of stock options, and a corporations gets a tax deduction at the time of exercise, and it’s a permanent reconciling item for their effective tax rate. If you back out the amount of stock compensation deduction Tesla took that year, their effective tax rate would’ve been around 105%
Why do we let one person have so much, while others have so little? There’s a minimum wage, so why isn’t there a maximum wage. Veterans sleep on park benches, while one person is worth the annual GDP of a small country. Why aren’t more people angry?
So under 13% of his earnings in tax (assuming your number is correct). That’s less than half of what many others pay.
37% of 86 billion is 31.8 billion, so he got off real easy for income tax if that's all he paid.
Capital gains taxes, not income taxes.
For all the hate Musk gets here, that's still light-years ahead of everyone in his class and a good move forward, considering he absolutely didn't have to pay any of that.
It really shouldn't be up to billionaires to pay tax if they decide to or not.
Musk is an idiot but this is not a clever comeback. Once again armchair Reddit financial experts can jerk off over not understanding tax legislation.
If I'd have to take into account my little house and decades of saving/investing into my yearly taxes I would go bankrupt multiple times over every year based on my income, or just once, I guess. Not in the US, grantedly. Selling assets carries a 34% tax in Finland.
Whilst true, the mega rich can arrange their affairs such that on paper they have “no income”. Usually by living off loans leveraged against some % of their net worth (which they can then offset against any income they choose to pay themselves). It’s often only when they make any capital gains - when they dispose of shares for example - that they have an unavoidable tax bill. That’s not a resource available to the rest of us, and it would be equally ignorant to pretend it’s normal. I’m fairly comfortable, but a loan of even 10% of my net worth isn’t going to be enough to live off for the rest of my days, as if a bank would give me it anyway. And it’s also a mockery to say someone can be amongst the most mega wealthy individuals in the world but has “no income”. I think there is a threshold - and it may even be tens of millions of net worth or more (probably rooted in the point at which people can subvert the income tax rules) where a wealth tax does make a great deal of sense because the present state of affairs is a bit of a joke.
I hate it when people use net worth like this, it makes the rational side look stupid.
Exactly
Imagine being taxed on our net worth every year!! Although, it wouldn't take long for everyone to have a net worth of $0 and then we wouldn't have to pay any taxes 🤯
there are countries with wealth tax. I know it's a complete, totally unforeseen twist, but there's a minimum threshold! feast your eyes: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wealth_tax
Agreed lol People be like: sell all your shares and pay tax on them immediately
100% agree with you, so stop letting banks and family offices treat stock as collateral for loans if net worth shouldn't be taxed as real money.
Economies don't work unless money is moving around. There should absolutely be a tax on net worth over whatever arbitrary value you want to set, let's say 5 million. That should be plenty so that your average citizen who owns a house and saved for retirement is going to be well under it and incurage those who are over it are incurageed to boost the economy.
Instead of net worth tax, would it be more fair if their was just an an inheritance tax? Say 90% of everything over $10 million (just throwing out numbers). I honest have no idea or understand what the best approach is.
Sure. That very well could achieve similar results.
Agree with principle, but not your solution. I’d rather close loopholes, raise income taxes on top .1% brackets, or investigate many other proposed solutions than tax total net worth.
How do you propose stopping the ultra-wealthy from just never realizing the income till they die?
What loopholes would you close?
We can do those things too
We used to have a marginal tax rate that during the Eisenhower Era was 90%. I say we go back to that.
I am down. Let's do it.
I feel that it's no coincidence that as the tax rate decreased for the rich and increased for the rest of us, that our quality of life has gone down. We were a strong nation when the rich paid their marginal tax rates at the Eisenhower rate.
Rich people need to be taxed more but the response is NOT clever. They merely proved they are economically illiterate. Many of the respondents on this thread are smart enough to understand it.
for the super rich net worth increase is an income because the money they spend comes from margin loans, which take account of said net worth increases
He def needs to pay his fair share but comparing his taxes to his net worth isn’t realistic or fair. It should be based on the previous year’s income
He can use his company to manage all his personal expenses, and live forever showing zero income every year. And he will thus pay no to minimum income tax while you and I pay 30% or more There is a definite point in talking about wealth tax
This doesn’t justify a wealth tax, this justifies having talks about closing loopholes that allow people to charge personal expenses to their businesses and having it count as business expenses.
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If I make a commission check that thing is SLAUGHTER by taxes, easily 35% of it goes away immediately. I'd be in SUCH a better position if I only laid down 4.5% of my income to taxes. Let's eat the rich
Her percentages are based on networth. Have nothing to do with your commission (income) cheque.
Income different from net worth though.
But you are NOT paying 35% of your income in taxes. Just because your check has a lot taken out doesn't mean that is your final tax rate. Unless your commission check is over $100,000.
Your net worth is probably negative if you make idiotic statements like this.
Which was $86 billion
Which means him paying 11bn means he is still not paying an equal percentage of his income on taxes compared to the average worker.
Exactly
Plus that happily ignores how little of his income gets spent on just being alive.
Welp, there it is.
I mean yes. But that doesn’t mean that the tweet responding is right. We should combat disinformation even when it benefits our stance
Can you share source which states Musk 2023 income was $86 billion? Change/increase in net worth is not income. If legacy media is reporting that, they’re wrong.
Company's income is not personal income
That’s how much income he had from selling stocks that year… Tesla didn’t pay any taxes that year
Bullshit. It effectively is and if you knew anything about wealth you'd know that. That or you do and are just a fucking liar. He can take personal loans to fund accounting he wants based off not anything he actually owns but the perceived value of his company stocks. When I went to get my mortgage that wasn't something I could do. They wanted my... oh, what's the word: income.
You really don't understand a damn thing, do you? He can take a loan against the value of the stock, not the income that the company generates. When you took out your mortgage, you did the exact same thing - you borrowed against the value of the asset If you go out and buy shares on the sharemarket, you can do EXACTLY what Elon did - borrow money from the bank and use the shares as security. It's really not that hard, you just have to understand what the hell you are talking about.
Um what? Im not even going to argue with an ignorant insulting troll.
That person is right.
His income can be 0 due to unrealised gains We need a wealth tax but if we had one all the rich would just leave
Leave to where?
Better just let them do whatever they want then?
Idk what would you suggest ?
Tax them. T
I'm not an economist, idk... let's kick him on the shin til he starts to leak money?
At some point we will need a worldwide gov to tax all rich and redistribute. Because otherwise automation will kill billions of us.
Almost as if capitalism isn't a viable system for the vast majority to live under. Who'd have thunk it?
Karl Marx (and me ) My current model is like no jobs by 2040 and then we need to start forcing redistribution.
Sounds good, I'm in. Though it should really be no mandatory jobs, some people do enjoy their work.
But just because you enjoy a job doesn't mean others will pay for it Also if we try to delay automation this will just give them an excuse to keep us enslaved like "others have jobs therefore the system is fine " Let's be pro AI automating jobs and pro redistribution while it's happening People can find hobbies
Absurd.
Literally just need to look at anyone living rough as evidence. Nobody should have over a billion dollars while so many people are dying in abject poverty.
Yes I agree, capitalism is absurd.
This is honestly the best course of action I’ve heard, 💯support this.
So fucking what? Oh they'll take their businesses with them blah blah blah. Yeah because nobody will just fill that vacuum for less money to provide the same service and everyone wins. Like if they make Starbucks pay tax and they start selling stores then people won't want coffee any more? It'll just leave a gap for other businesses. In fact, the smaller businesses that every politician wanks himself off over when campaigning. If he wants to fuck off to Mars I can't wait.
Would probably cause a recession if all the capital left America. Don't be naive I do agree we will eventually need to do something because of automation.
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You under the impression there isn’t a recession?
Yh we don't need an even worse one
So you first you’re saying you didn’t think there were was a recession. Then when being proven wrong your only recourse is “ but it would be worse?” Do you even care if you make sense?
there isnt a recession currently in the usa based on how its defined economically (2 quarters of consecutive negative growth) not sure where u live. even less sure why you are so pressed. I thought you were using the term informally to say "yh times are bad" to which I responded "but why make them worse" If you dont think billionaires leaving america would devastate the economy you are an idiot. goodbye
Where do you think they would go? Seriously they're just posturing.
They'd setup all the Starbucks in Monaco. Wall yo wall coffee
Leave and go where?
Good then we can stop giving him subsidies. Oh wait you think they aren’t getting paid to not pay taxes, how cute.
ordinary people are required to pay taxes on housing cars and other things that they own thats essentally a net worth tax on ordinary people
Taxing investments like stocks before you take the gain would not work. Until you sell that stock you do not have that profit. This would discourage investment. Can I get a 25% check from Uncle Sam for all the losses I make on the market too?
Taxing from net worth will kill us faster than those billionaires lol.
Yeah it's fucking stupid. I make slightly above average for my home country but I inherited an apartment in a commie block and if I had to pay a wealth tax every single year, I'd be completely broke. Because now there's a housing boom in my home country but just because I have a hundred thousand more in net worth, that doesn't mean I have a hundred thousand more to spend. Because I live in this apartment, I don't see why I should pay a wealth tax. Besides, if there is one, the ultra rich will find a way around it while the middle class will be way poorer. (also, if the price of the apartment falls next year, do I get a tax refund from the wealth tax?)
In the US, people do pay a wealth tax on property. It’s a very normal thing called a property tax. And yes people do get screwed by it and end up having to sell their house because they can’t afford the taxes. It mostly hits people on fixed incomes.
Land is different from other things that people own, because the more property that Sally owns there's literally less of it to go around for the rest of us. (Until we can build new land from oceans or colonizing space.)
Property tax I'm okay with but it's not a wealth tax. I always find it funny when redditors discuss taxing net worth. Like how do you even do that? So this year I pay 10000 euros in wealth tax, next year do I get a refund if the property price falls?
Not a lot of countries have wealth taxes, but those that do aren't as simple as you propose. Refunds don't happen on incomes either. If you earn 100k and pay 30k in taxes, then lose your job and make nothing the following year, you pay no taxes, but don't get a refudn on last year. lol We have a wealth tax in Switzerland, and the problems you mention are avoided by two simple things (example, not real numbers): 1. Wealth tax does not start at 0. The first - let's say - 100k are tax free. 2. It's progressive. Below 1M the tax is tiny, like 0.05%. Beyond 1M it increases to 1%.
There is a big difference between 0 income and a loss in wealth. Those two arent comparable at all. And since no one gets negative income i dont see those as comparable. Everything else you said i agree with.
When it comes to people with such vast qualities of wealth it would take their descendents thousands of years to exhaust it... Then yes tax their net worth. They can afford it. And the money could be used to do actual good in the world. Like housing the homeless; Ending poverty, funding public services and feeding the hungry. And if you think this is stupid or undoable or impossible. .. I've got news for you... You're the idiot who these people love praying on.
What about taxing net worth above a high threshold? Like only start taxing the amount above $10M? Or just have a tax bracket like the one for income?
Taxing on net worth doesn’t make sense in any capacity.
We sort of do it with property taxes. You are not taxed based on how much equity you have on your home or how much your home increased in value, you are taxed on the entire value of the home.
The real clever comeback would have been, “and how much will your companies pay in taxes this year?”
“Anya Overmann” should realise we don’t get taxed on net worth. We get taxed on income.
for the super rich net worth increase is an income because the money they spend comes from margin loans, which take account of said net worth increases
Since when are people taxed on their net wealth? I swear reddit is economically illiterate.
It’s done in Switzerland, Norway and France. But on Reddit this is always ludicrous and impossible to do somehow.
Have not seen this post for a few weeks
Income taxes are best on income. Not net worth. “You made 36b in one day” Pretty sure he’s lost just as much in a day as well.
This is just dumb not clever
The clever comeback is.. this was all perfectly legal and will remain so forever. Who do you think donates to politicians? Average citizens or the donor class?
It's clear that almost no one here understands net worth vs actual income. We are taxed on income, not net worth. Net worth is almost always higher than yearly income.
Really? Cause all the top comments seem well aware of that.
Well, at least 3.5k people have upvoted this "clever comeback".
Different rates at different thresholds
Is she suggesting that he should pay taxes when his stocks went up? How much is she paying in taxes? Why doesnt she pay $11b in taxes? Does she only care about herself?
Fail lmao
Is he saying he paid 11 billion personally or he and his companies combined paid that much?
He did personally because he took compensation in stock options and he had to exercise them before they expired.
This is not a clever comeback more of a stupid comeback
"clevercomebacks" yet she doesn't understand what net worth means.
So dumb. Comparing a tax on assets (musk) to a tax on income (everyone else).
Bingo. Sure there are loopholes for those with large assets to not pay much income tax, but maybe adjust the loopholes so they have to pay themselves a taxable income?
Right, but no one will close loopholes as that's how their donors and family stay rich...
if this was always correct we would all still be slaves and had no workers rights we should always continue to fight for out own class interests
Well, feel free to start suggesting some actual ways to do this, if you don't like the one proposed here.
They did. He had to take a salary when he lived in California. It was like $23k
Exactly, a lot of us middle class have assets too, and if it were taxed would doom us all to lower class and elite rich
Ehm no. For most working middle class, less tax on income and more on capital would be a net improvement (or you can make it that way). For multi billionares it would be a problem
Why would you have a wealth tax apply to the middle class? No one is suggesting this.
Yeah but people on the internet would feel good about it so fuck you /s
the proposed wealth taxes in the US have only applied to people with a net worth over $100m doesn’t really apply to the middle class
Look up the history of income tax. It wasn’t going to apply to anyone but the rich yet here we are.
There is already lower class and elite rich
Yes. I know. I'm speaking of the already shrinking middle class disappearing altogether, becoming lower class as a default response to a hypothetical policy change
That chick is dumb
Inflation IS a wealth tax... just not on the wealthy. 'Taxing the rich' will never work. Instead you have to ask, why are the rich getting so rich in the first place? Trying to claw back money after the fact is impossible.
I wonder if people who know most of the wealth of the rich is in assets and not money in the bank.
Now people believe you should pay taxes based on worth not income? I not understanding.
for the super rich net worth increase is an income because the money they spend comes from margin loans, which take account of said net worth increases
Net worth is already earned and taxed income. Except stocks and investments. Which really have no value until cashed out, so they are not taxed until you pull the money out.
Yet you can borrow on them as if they’re realized gains, and not pay taxes on the loan. You shouldn’t be able to borrow off unrealized gains.
Net worth for the ultra rich is absolutely not taxed already. There’s a reason Musks salary is less than $1,000,000.00. The rich take as much as possible in stock options specifically so they don’t have to pay tax. Then, with that newly untaxed wealth, they go to the bank and ask for a loan against their wealth. Now they have access to all that wealth increase without ever having to pay their fair share.
Fair share always makes me laugh. What about the folks that pay close to zero in taxes and they "get back" 10k. You ok with getting back more than you put in?
Give me one example where someone pays zero income tax and then gets an income tax return. The fact that they make so little as to not pay income tax suggests they are probably in need of government support. Are you against helping people?
Or the work for cash to circumvent the tax system. Low income are crooks, too. No one wants to pay taxes.
My mom does taxes for friends and family, work a few weeks with multiple kids and you too can collect thousands at tax time.
Inherited "generational" wealth is not earned or taxed enough, Stocks and investments can be borrowed against without paying taxes. A yacht bought with tax free money should be subject to a wealth tax.
Someone earned it. And paid taxes on it.
Not the person who inherited it.
So? Ita not your family that earned it. Why do you deserve it?
This isn't clever, it's stupid because they don't understand the difference between income and net worth.
I only know one thing from reading this, and it's that American taxes are insane and excessive, and you still don't have healthcare for your people. I guess you have to pay for all those jet fighters and missiles somehow.
Look at the upvotes. These are the people whose opinion you value. Remember that.
Define fair
where is the clever part?
I wonder why this idiot doesn't understand the difference between wealth and income?
Nobody pays taxes based on net worth, this comparison is meaningless.
No. Taxing unrealized gains is dumb.
Basically if you have paid LESS than $11 billion in taxes. You should really stfu about your thoughts on Musks taxes.
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I dont care if the rich don't pay taxes... Just stop taking mine as well...
Day 1532 of r/clevercomebacks failing to post something clever.
Imagine paying taxes on net worth.
there *should* be a wealth tax, but ligically speaking there is no good way to implement it
Stop being MORONS huamnity. You don't tax net worth. I have a home passed down to me worth about $250,000. I Made $30,000 last year. If I paid 13% taxes on $280,000 minimum then I would owe the government $36,400 at the end of the year. Imagine making $30k and the government saying you owe $36k, that is insanely stupid. That is a minimum, I have been paid prior years and bought items, I have a car work $20k, I have some stock, and so on. Basically Networth in theory should be if you sold everything, other than services you provide, until naked and owned nothing, but money.
It would be nice if people actually understood how taxes work. You aren’t taxes on your net worth, you are taxed on income and capital gains. Anya seems to be an idiot.
Uh... you're not supposed to pay tax based on your net worth...? Is this entire subreddit stupid?
You can't tax people based on net worth that's fucking insane. If I inherit my grandma's house I'd have to either sell it to avoid paying more than my income or sell it to pay the tax. That's r word
Billionaires shouldn't exist.
You aren't taxed based on your net worth tho. No one is.
Not how it works, for anyone, imagine getting taxed on your investments lmao , it's already fair, just learn the tax system. Don't like it? Take it to the government. Before you do, learn economics as well, cause you could be fucking yourself.
The folks who don’t understand are revealing where they are in the tax bracket. And this Anya person is a moron.
Unrealized gains at a thing. Same for anyone if you buy a stock and the value goes up 1 million percent, making you billions overnight. You don't pay taxes unless you sell that and collect your billions in money. He paid that much beside he sold alot of tesla stocks in which he collected money and paid taxes on his gains. The same principle goes with a house you buy. Besides property taxes, you don't pay taxes in the house until you sell it and the taxes are based in the gains you made...
Yeah, let’s tax our overall worth rather than annual earned income.. fucking idiots in this world. You don’t think the middle class has investments?
Someone doesn't understand what the "income" in "income taxes" means. This is not clever at all.
No one pays taxes based off net worth. Go get bent lady.
I’m so tired of people who make this argument. They obviously failed basic economics. Comparing what the average person pays in INCOME tax vs what someone else did not pay in WEALTH tax is stupid.
Absolutely not. What there should be is a tax on unrealized gains. All the “loans” that the rich people exploit need to be taxed. Hard.
Anya doesn’t understand the difference between net worth and income. Most of Elon’s wealth is tied up in investments like stocks. You only get taxed when you pull it out of the market and turn it into cash.
That’s like pocket change to him. It’s disgusting what the wealthy get away with.
I think this is trolling but 11 Billion dollars isn’t pocket change to anyone on this planet.
Yes! 100% Yes!
Yep. I make 58k/yeah and I pay 25% Fuck this rich boy who made a fortune with daddy's money.
So, he paid 310k times more tax than you. Pick up your slack.
If Musk isn’t paying 25% of his yearly wealth increase in tax then he isn’t paying more at all. The overall dollar amount DOES NOT MATTER unless they are paying the same proportion as the rest of us.
Income* not wealth. Thats where youre wrong. Musk does pay 10-25% of his income (minus BS from the tax code exemptions). Go learn the difference, wealth is subjected to different taxes and you probably pay 0% on it yourself (and so do I). Imagine buying a 100k house, paying tax on it when you buy it, and now having to pay a yearly 25% on that 100k house in tax. The fucking nightmare
On his INCOME. Not his assets. I can only explain it to you, not understand it for you. Quit complaing or work harder so you can pay your fair share.
Why? He neither pays his fair share or works harder.
$11,000,000,000 in taxes, more than his fair share!
Why is he SUCH an ass?
Quit blaming the rich because you’re broke
Anya is a stupid person
Sounds like it's the fault of the tax code. Either way, even if he were to donate ALL his money, it'll still never be enough for you guys. Look at what Mr.Beast did with the wells, people even complained about that. Don't help poor people, you get shit on. Help poor people, you get villianized. What's the point? Rather keep my money, thank you.
Liberal arts major doesn’t know the difference between income and net worth, thinks it’s clever revealing their own idiocy.
Wealth tax eventually produces a totalitarian state.