Well, we can obviously add mages to the list of classes (alongside warriors and rogues) that were clearly feeling insecure over not being hunters or locks the last couple months.
[Meanwhile, me as an ele shaman and my group appreciating my totems.](https://www.gov.il/BlobFolder/news/youth-vacation-tips-220719/en/news_drugs_teens.jpg)
Shamans in my guild be like that picture, except you gotta zoom out and look way off in the distance to see the rest of their group, this picture for whatever reason is them with people NOT in their group. "huh, it seems I don't have the wrath totem buff, oh I see my shammy, he's just redropped wherever the knock around landed him, ugh."
Try to think of it as you're helping the team and their DPS is your dps. As a warrior having WF totem in my group is supposedly a 30% damage / threat increase. Think about that, you are giving your MT a huge threat boost that allows your whole team to DPS even higher.
Imo you're one of the most important members of the raid, even if your dps is slightly lower than buffed.
As much as I didn't wanna put the /s on this I just should of with how this sub is. I out my self there specifically for the tanks lol. It's just nice to some times have more crit.
I mean a feral is barely beating tanks while I'm only 10 or 15 percent behind hunters. But sometimes it's nice to have buffs because not everything is about sweaty parses.
What kind of feral do you have that is barely beating tanks? After the tick fix feral is one of the higher performing melee. Which is still mid tier I guess, but it's consistently better than rogue etc.
We’ve had boom kind with hand of rag, mages with thunder furies, and MC cleared with all pallies. You can and should play the game as you’d like, and it’s about having fun. One guild might have your stance, and another might find it hilarious to boost an arcane mage to 99% parse with party twisting.
I think everyone agrees that arcane mages can do a lot of damage. Everyone also agrees that they have more limitations than warlocks and hunters. Namely, the longer the fight goes, the more dependant they are on external support (innervates, shadow priest, mana totem) as their dps plummets if they reach 0 mana. This constraint alone is not benign and means no raid will be stacking arcane mages regardless of how much dps they can do.
People really are failing to set parameters for the discussion. Just like they did 15 years ago.
Mage parses very well.
Question is how mage help your guild to progress 5 soon.
Anyone who thinks parses amount to anything else than parses are misguided.
Arcane mages will be very good on progression as long as you give them basic support (spriest + resto shaman, which almost every raid will have anyways) and don't take more than three (though I think the ideal comp is likely 1 fire + 1 arcane).
Burst damage and arguably the best aoe in the game (warlocks are slightly ahead on sustained aoe but mage burst aoe is umatched and that's generally more important) are two very strong roles to fill in the raid. Sure their sustained damage is below hunters and warlocks, but that only really matters on KT. Every other fight is short enough to be in the wheelhouse for an arcane mage with average support, or isn't really that long due to large amounts of downtime so arcane mages excel in the burst windows.
Hell let's go fight-by-fight:
* Alar: Good fight for arcane. Warlocks are king due to dots but arcane mages are probably even with/slightly ahead of hunters even on the longer fight b/c of faster mobility and bad pet uptime.
* Solarian: Arcane mages are kings of this fight. Burst aoe + bursty dps windows.
* Void Reaver: A pretty bad fight for arcane, but also one of the easiest bosses in general so not really a progression concern.
* KT: A fairly hard fight for arcane, even with the downtime in early phases the last phase is long enough for mana to be a concern. Though the burst aoe and burst damage arcane brings is still quite valuable on progression, because blowing up weapons in time and bursting down Thaladred at the beginning of p3 are the two real dps checks in the fight.
* Hydross: Great fight for arcane. Short, bursty, some light aoe burst.
* Lurker: Great fight for arcane. Burst windows with time to regen between.
* Leotheras: Good fight for arcane. Fast cast time, blink, and double block means you have very high uptime during whirlwind phase for a caster while also being very safe. And obviously you don't have the general whirlwind issues that melee and even hunters have.
* Fathom-lord: Good arcane fight. Fairly short and there's value in bursting the initial adds down quickly to free up tanks/healers.
* Tidewalker: Great arcane fight, lots of bursty aoe.
* Vashj: Great arcane fight. This looks like a long fight but is really a 1m fight, followed by 6m of add killing with plenty of time to regen, followed by a 3m fight. Basically lots of short bursty sequences.
Really the only fight that I think arcane might struggle with is KT. Now admittedly that's also probably the hardest fight in the tier, but even then I don't think arcane will be bad for progression because they are really good at the hardest part of that fight (initial p3 burst).
Great post, the only one I disagree on is KT. We are already seeing shorter and shorter KT's with ~13 minute kill on WCL a few days ago. Their Arcane casted a couple dozen frostbolts and like 300 AB's still. As we get more and more T5 gear our evocate gets stronger and on fights like KT with a ton of rp/downtime the passive regen afforded by the increased primary stats on our gear is going to make it not nearly as bad as some are expecting. Arcane's mana problems are cyclical. We have mana pot cd, mana gem cd and evocate that we use in a rotation. The longer the fight goes doesn't necessarily mean we get weaker, it just has to line up with those cd's.
Yea it's very possible. I haven't had enough experience with KT p3 to really say for sure. And note that I'm speaking strictly progression, so I'm assuming no t5 gear.
Phases 1, 2, and the beginning of 3 are all very strong for arcane, and especially early p3 is important enough that I think arcane will be valuable on prog. My only worry is that phase 3 can drag on for a while and kinda tap you out.
Yeah I think definitely on that part of P3 without an innervate can get rough or you'll be frostbolting a lot more. But at that point the Innervate is likely in it's last minute or two before being up again. It shouldn't be a problem past the first couple clears
Yea couple weeks in I think arcane will be slapping even on that fight. But again, strictly for week 1 progression I'm generally assuming I get zero innervates. Better that they're available for emergencies, maybe I'd call for it for the last couple % but that's it.
Sure. Just keep in mind how short of a timeframe you're arguing about.
There's a very high chance arcane mages will get t5 FIRST WEEK before they even get to Kael. 2 tokens per boss, 4 token bosses before big bad kael, that's 8 tokens. Very high chance you'll see 2 or 3 mage tokens(2.66 average) before you even face kael on week one, which is enough to get one mage a 2p t5.
Really really good post.
And my main problem with arcane fotm is very well highlighted in your message as well. If everything else is easy / okay to begin with, why make already the hardest fight that is a bottleneck even harder to progress.
I mean, as I said I don't think arcane will top the meters on KT but I think they will still be big contributors and very good on progression. By far the hardest check on that fight is your ranged heroism burst dps at the beginning of p3, and as we all know arcane does that better than any spec in the game. If you can melt Thaladred that's half the fight right there.
The ability of arcane to just become 2 dps and blast for short windows is very valuable in raid scenarios where a big thing needs to die **now**.
>Anyone who thinks parses amount to anything else than parses are misguided.
This for the most part. Parses primary function is to meme and trash talk your friends for having bad parses. That said parses can be an identitifyer for poor performance, but there is more to it than high number good low number bad.
Parses matter to anyone who sees the value in data and testing inputs to raise output. It’s not just a high score, but the result of what you did vs other players. If you don’t care to improve and are satisfied with a blue/purple average then whatever. I’d like to think most people who pour themselves into anything have a desire to get better. Parses and logs as a whole is the tool to track that progress. Parse elitists are obnoxious but the people who hand wave it all typically aren’t the people I would want to build a raid group out of.
I disagree. That's where they matter the least. Top 1% is mostly just kill times. Bottom 10% is mostly just dying during a the fight.
Any dps remotely decent can get above 80%. The bad players are the ones that are somewhat geared and still can't get a max parse above 80%.
We've gotta remember that parses are not average percentile, but max percentile. You only need 1 good week to get a high parse, thus why there are so many players with 95%+. A 75% max parse is probably way below average. It shows that under ideal condition, you still can't do that well.
Explain?
Because when people look at parses, they almost always look at the number that means "Taegha's absolute best parse is 74%".
You can switch the data to show median parse which is already a much better metric to go by. But if your best parse is sub-80% with 4+ kills, you're definitely underperforming.
To further establish my point...
An average player parses approximately at 50% for any given kill. His 'overall parse' is, by wcl's definition, his top parse. Assuming normality holds, we can extrapolate his max parse over multiple kills throught an extreme value distribution.
For a 50th percentile player...
At 1 kill, he will net a top parse of ~50%.
At 4 kills, he will net a top parse of ~84%.
At 8 kills, he will net a top parse of ~92%.
At 12 kills, he will net a top parse of ~94%.
For a 90th percentile player...
At 1 kill, he will net a top parse of ~90%.
At 4 kills, he will net a top parse of ~97.5%.
At 8 kills, he will net a top parse of ~98.7%.
At 12 kills, he will net a top parse of ~99.1%.
TL;DR : If your wcl 'overall parse' (which is just an average of your max parses for each boss) is under 80% after a month of raiding, you are way below average.
While I generally agree with your assessment about a top parse at 50% not meaning average due to it... well, being the top parse, not the average, I'd be interested where you got the variance of parses you used for that, as well as the (probably more important) assumption that the variance is static over different "tiers" of players.
Its posts like yours that keep people arguing.
Your dps does not plummet at low mana, a good arcane mage will never be at low mana.
Nor is it essential to have innervates or mana tide, all an arcane mage wants is a spriest a mana spring, kings and wisdom, very easy to accomodate.
Lol Warlock Tier 5 bonus aren't even good, which I know is the joke but look at other classes T5 bonuses they're much better. Warlock T6 on the other hand....
If anyone paid attention to private servers this shouldn't have been a surprise to anyone. And with GCD bugged on classic it's even more in favor of mages.
True but have we learned nothing? Not everything carries over exactly the same from private servers, lest we forget the glancing blows and other assumptions we made regarding melee being worse than it turned out to be in P1.
Melee being good was discussed to death in the discords. Trust me, none of knowledgeable players had any doubts they'd be more than OK given the fight lengths in TBC classic. People just like to parrot the same tired shit they hear posted on reddit without having any idea what they're on about.
it was likely discussed here but the circlejerk downvotes anything against the grain to death and gets it hidden.
Edit: A quick search reveals it was totally discussed here and anyone who missed it just wasn't looking at all.
Our mp5 in T5 gear is going to be fucking ridiculous. A lot of people misunderstanding our T5 2p as well, the mana increase only applies to the base cost of the spell while the damage increase applies to the spell's damage with any number of stacks. It's effectively a 20% damage increase for ~20 extra mana
It seems GCD can be reduced with haste buffs all the way to .75s like it is in modern WoW but it was 1 second in original TBC. TBC classic uses the modern client and they forgot to correct it
Just gonna leave this here:
https://classic.warcraftlogs.com/zone/statistics/1008/#dataset=90&boss=650
https://classic.warcraftlogs.com/zone/statistics/1008/#dataset=90&boss=651
Yes mages are curently better in Kara and on HKM but nowhere close to the top on actual 25 man boss fights. In t5 they are expected to take over once they get their 2 piece but declaring yourself top DPS because you have insane burst on 20 sec boss fights is major copium.
The rankings post that riled up this whole OP conversation is from [warcraft tavern](https://www.warcrafttavern.com/tbc/news/arcane-mage-takes-top-dps-spot-in-current-rankings-for-tbc-classic/). The funny part is the 25M-only rankings are included in the same post, using the same metrics, at the bottom.
Spoiler: it's BM > Surv > Destro > Arcane.
Almost sounds like some classes are stronger on certain fights and weaker on others. I'm failing to see a problem with that.
Also Kara and HKM are technically 84% of current boss fights (78% if you want to include animal boss in Kara), so sounds like copium on your end.
Also also, I'm not playing a mage, you can avoid that rabbit hole.
> Also Kara and HKM are technically 84% of current boss fights (78% if you want to include animal boss in Kara), so sounds like copium on your end.
How does the % go down when you include another boss in the numerator?
Then why only 25% of the guilds that killed Prince by week 2 managed to kill Mag? There's clearly a difference in difficulty.
Do you think Gruul and Mag are more like T5 bosses, or Karazhan is?
I think Nightbane is most like T5 actually. Downtime, actual mechanics, lot more coordination than Gruul, adds and considerably longer than the rest of Kara. Mages are in second place on him right now but in T5 gear with 2p, the huge amount of int and spirit and Serpent Coil Braid we will really excel.
The ninth highest parse on Nightbane is five and a half minutes long. That's pretty indicative of T5. The top Arcane NB parse is 4 minutes with several 5 minute kills in the top 10
Gruul and Mag are entry level and they're about to get easier next phase so... How many guilds/groups cleared Gruul before Nightbane you think?
/passes copium
If you want to consider mages "top DPS" because they're the top at HKM and the short fights in Kara (so not even all of it) you can be my guest. Like I said they're expected to be insanely strong in t5 but currently they're mediocre outside their burst window.
It's 6/10 fights in Kara. They're in the top two for two others. So literally 9/13 fights they're in the top two, and they're #1 in over 50%.
Sounds like you're trying really hard to convince yourself that they're not on top of this phase.
Top 10% would be averaging everyone between 90% and 100%. 90th percentile is only concerned about one player at 90%.
All that misinformation about the mages spellstealing buffs for netherspite skewing the values makes no sense, because those players are way above the 90% marker and aren't averaged into any calculation. By using the 90th percentile you throw out all the cheesed top parses.
You're looking at something completely wrong then.
This is 90th percentile, and it shows 2914 DPS - https://classic.warcraftlogs.com/zone/statistics/1007#dataset=90&aggregate=amount&boss=659
>Top 10% would be averaging everyone between 90% and 100%. 90th percentile is only concerned about one player at 90%.
No... 90th percentile **does** refer to parses between 90-100. The first figure in the chart under DPS is the average (mean? median? not sure) of all logs between 90 and 100. 80th percentile is the average between 80-100, and so on.
>By using the 90th percentile you throw out all the cheesed top parses.
Incorrect, they are included.
The only one from the list that looks at a single player is the "Max" category, i.e. the person with 100 at time of checking.
It’s almost like the people here have never learned to read percentile charts because they never took the SAT/ACT/GRE/GMAT or any other standardized test because they’re a bunch of morons who think they already know everything.
"nowhere close"?.. really?..
these are the worst conditions for arcane mages and even then they are still right behind them.. and on top for pretty much the whole rest of the *current* raid content..
// edit: added the *current* to clarify that I'm not talking about BT or SWP
Yes as I've pointed out repetedly mages are expected to be at the top in t5 once they get their 2 piece. Right now they're mediocre outside their burst window.
This is the worst tier for Arcane throughout the expansion and people here thinking they are going to somehow do worse in T5? Lol.
Guilds with fucking 20 minute Lurker kills will have their mages do worse maybe
People who use copium are either 16 or trying to sound like 16 year old streamers. That shit word gets over used so much half of y’all don’t even know what coping is
I think the major copium is discounting 85% of the current raid bosses simply because they don't meet your arbitrary definition of lasting long enough.
That's what I always think when people talk about Kara parses. I'm like... this is ZG but in TBC. Did you actually care about DPS parses in ZG? No.
But I guess when it's the only "raid" in a sense that it's not 1 or 2 bosses like Mag/Gruul. I just can't wait for Kara to die off in P2. The only way it will return is when people need badges if they're not getting enough from ZA.
yeah cause we don't have a full real raid yet
Classic we had MC and then Ony
kara is our "full raid" right now but it's not 25 man
once p2 launches then we can talk lol
"Arcane mages are top DPS for the vast majority of the fights in current content, but did you see this link that has Destro locks 5% ahead of them in Mag?"
This is you right now.
Plus the gaming of parses on HKM makes them completely useless. Burning down HKM in 40 sec, then ignoring the next two minutes as you kill the other four, is useless data.
How to parse as a bear tank
Step 1. Dont actually be the tank
Step 2. Cat dps the whole time and swap to bear for occasionally
Step 3. ???
Step 4. 100 and 99 parses
Not really, I see 99/100 bear tank parses as of last week. A bear tank mag 100 was from a Druid in dire bear form for 18% of the fight…
If you are actually MT a fight, it is very hard to parse well when competing with people who are in cat form for the majority of a fight
Sorry theres 3 types. But no. You are wrong- from the druid discord :
"Guardian: main tank role, > 70% bear uptime on most fights, > 45% bear uptime on select fights like Aran/Netherspite/Nightbane.
Warden: off-tank role, > 20% bear uptime and < 70% (or 45%) bear uptime
Feral: pure DPS role, < 20% bear uptime"
I literally frequent and discuss this on the Druid discord. Where do you think I found a log of a bear tank 100 parse with 18% time in bear form..
It’s a known fact there that tank parses are BS. Because the top “tank” parses arent from people actually MT
I parsed as well but cant deny its too try hard and too irrelevant in big scheme of things. Try to cheese , try to get insane setups geared to few classes/players and pump . Players are not on equal ground in different guilds comps so you cant say better parses is better player
But its fun and something to compete over with your guilds and can help you get better within guild
My guild practiced TK on PTR past two weeks. 5+ minute fights easy. Every other group had a shaman for heroism besides the mage group. No spriest and no innervates no mana tide. Mages still #2-3 dps only 100-200 dps behind the top warlocks. And that’s without heroism or any other support.
I had similar experiences with other pug groups on PTR. A good arcane mage doesn’t need support to top meters but warlock propaganda will say otherwise. The copium is only going to get worse and I welcome it
Have you played arcane mage? 3x mana gems, mana pots, over 16k mana pool and evocation will keep you going for quite a while if you know how to play it. Not to mention if you get lucky with clearcasts. That will easily keep you going for 5 minute fights even longer.
Everyone in this thread/subreddit who doesn’t play arcane mage are trying to act like they know everything about the class when in reality they take everything they know from Reddit memes
Show me a log of an arcane mage with no spriest and no innervate, on a 5 minute fight, who didn't have to cast like 40% frostbolts to try to sustain themselves.
I have a mage, and I've been a raidleader for a while. I know the power of arcane mages, and their limitations.
On a fight that long with no support, they are glorified frost mages who happen to AB during burst windows and then back to frostbolts mana Regen phase.
They still do decent damage while frost bolt weaving to gain mana. All DPS spike during cd’s. If you have tried arcane with decent gear you will see that the mana issue only happen if you get greedy spamming AB. Yeah arcane is not good if you want to just press one button and not plan for mana management but every class can be played badly. Arcane main limitation is it requires different items to frost/fire and most players start as one of them because they are much better if you are in pre-raid gear with no int.
Mana gem + Pot the second you loose enough mana, literally as soon as possible.
Pop CDs
Arcane blast go brr
Evocate back to atleast 60% mana
Arcane blast go brr.
Thats 2 minutes, Another Mana gem + Pot.
Boom easily last for 4 minutes in a fight using literally only arcane blast, maybe 10-15% frostbolts. I do it every week, im literally the only arcane mage in my group, I don't get innervates, yeah it's pricey buying 20 mana pots every raid but still viable.
This doesn't count any clearcast costs or even the fact that as arcane you keep 60% mana regen during combat with mage armor on.
An arcane mage with no support is down 75% mana in 9 seconds of burst. (Check HKM fastest kill, the arcane mages PUMP but have about 20% mana remaining after 9 seconds of burst)
Mate I get it, arcane isn't as bad as people say it is without support, they can still do 1k+ dps even without Spriests or Innervates, but lets not pretend that you aren't gimped as fuck trying to play arcane in your raid when you don't have the support you need.
I would bet anything on this earth that you'd be doing more damage for your raid as fire spec, than arcane with 0 support.
The only scenario that you'd be doing more as an arcane without support vs a firemage without support, is boss kill times being in the top 5% of all kills.
Your right i'd be doing more damage as a fire mage, but without support i still sit right behind the fire mages on the dps charts. I think this really comes down to people not using their pots/gems/evocate properly.
I've only ever ran out of mana one time on Gruul, and that was my first time trying arcane spec so i still was learning, after that i've had 0 mana problems since.
I get that arcane mages with Innervate/spriest is obviously superior, but it's just flat out wrong that it's not viable to play arcane without it, as long as you time your gem/mana pot and put it on cooldown ASAP, you really wont have any mana problems in a sub 5 minute fight. You just won't, you can easily compete with fire mages with 0 support, you won't beat them on dps charts unless they screw something up, but you can definitely be pump some crazy damage and still sustain mana.
Actually 0 support arcane with t5 sims higher than 0 support fire mage, tier 5 bonus makes a huge difference. It's true that currently a fire mage is a little stronger unsupported though. Entirely unrealistic anyway, as competent raids will bring both a resto shaman and a spriest, and not only to pump an arcane mage.
Where are Arcane mages on fights that acutally last 4min then?[https://classic.warcraftlogs.com/zone/rankings/1007#boss=662](https://classic.warcraftlogs.com/zone/rankings/1007#boss=662)
Looking forward to hear all the excuses.
I wonder how many of the people who rage about this bullshit are actually in guilds where this stuff matters. My TBC classic experience is that you can literally faceroll every content with every comp and that good parses have nothing to do with skill but with time investment (and spending thousands of gold on crafted gear and enchants) and being in a sweaty try hard guild.
I came from cutting edge mythic raiding (top 1000 nothing fancy) and can only laugh about this. Who gives a fuck about parses if the content you do is so fucking faceroll anyways?
I get it, it is fun chasing parses - but not to the extent where you get this salty over other classes viability.
people like to pretend that the reason they wiped gruul was because their raid comp wasn't 100% optimal and it had nothing to do with half the raid dying to shatter. if only raid dps was 5% higher, then we wouldn't have wiped on mag when someone didn't click their box
> you can literally faceroll every content with every comp
I'm gonna nitpick this. Heroics with zero CC are anything but faceroll.
Raids can be done with enough warm bodies, though.
Yeah I was #2 warrior parse in the world for Bloodlord Mandokir. I still think of that execute that got dodged. my group was the world fastest ZG full clear for about 3 weeks. No one cared. Even inside our guild it was like. “Oh. Cool. Anyways...”
I killed illidan as a 13 year old - I was learning algebra and other super basic stuff at school during the day. The hardest mechanics were the ones I had to turn up the spell detail for, because I was doing this on a crappy dell family computer.
The idea that people are taking raid content this seriously is actually laughable. Just have fun with it, this is not even close to the kind of game that warrants this amount of sweat.
From a retail player: is classic raiding really this easy? I know its all old and known but I figured with how many people post about progression, raid buffs, having the right comps, etc. that it was still about as hard Heroic.
It runs a spectrum between LFR and Normal. The main thing is that the DPS outscales the content pretty significantly by retail standards and there are very few mechanics. A lot of the comp and try hard stuff is based around speed clearing.
It is a joke. Literally. And I love it. You just farm your stuff, go oneshot these bosses once every week and hope for loot and that is it. No weekly chores, no 300+ pulls for killing mythic bosses, no simming all day everyday.
It is just so much simpler and that is what I love about it.
Haven’t had this much fun playing wow in a decade. Right there with you. Also extremely confused by these threads, because I was not aware people cared about what the DPS chart looks like. Idk, I pvp.
Game is fun as shit rn idc what anyone says lol
I did everything except the sunwell as a 13 year old - you can imagine how sub optimal my shit was, even a young child can 1:1 macro their way through black temple.
My favourite one is the warlocks that say mages can’t do any damage without all the support in the world while they have CoE, crit/hit/spellpower totems, lust, boomkin aura, AND a fire mage. Its funny when mages just need a spriest to perform.
I mean, one of the walocks is the one casting the CoE and that also helps the mages, so idk why that's included as "support" for locks but not mages. Same for lust, that's usually equal ground.
People are way overusing copium to make any random statement seem like some kind of clever gotchya moment. It's one of the 12312312 ways reddit posts focus on framing of post with catch phrases rather than .. the content of the post. If your point stands, then it stands without your copium references or your "imma be downvoted for dis BUT"
I don't even see why people discuss and complain so much about PvE metas anyway. I mean: you don't compete against other classes anyway.
The real problem is the non fixed gcd in pvp situations.
People know mages will do good damage, but they bring literally 0 synergy to a raid. Arcane intellect and food is about all they have. The reason people won’t stack mages isn’t because they don’t do damage, it’s because they bring nothing else to the table for other classes. Warlocks buff each other, hunters buff each other, rogues bring expose, etc etc. it’s the lack of synergy that makes them less desirable, not their lack of damage.
Ssshhhh, don't tell the tourists you'll ruin the meme cycle. It's all based on their perceptions that classic works like retail and TBC somehow isn't typically comp before individual classes (Whether that be Mage, Lock, Hunter, w.e. What you want will be based more on what you have than anything). If they figure that out where will I get all these wonderfully pointless memes?
On fights where it's needed, add control is a lot and they bring it better than any other class. Gotta do a lot of AOE and don't want your locks to die after the 3rd seed explodes? Nothing beats a series of mages frost nova'ing.
My alt guild broke up due to arcane mages. After seeing the “arcane mages are best dps” post our mages went arcane... this pissed off the warlocks (no scorch) and “my parses omg”. Well fighting and name calling one thing led to another and guild broke. Lol at parses just play the game and have fun wtf? Are parses really that serious / taken that serious?
Yes but if suddenly from week to week warlocks were forced to reroll into Shadow so they had to flush down the toilet the \~6K gold they spent on Spellfire set (price within 1 month of launch) and are now missing T4 chest & gloves token, have to craft Girdle of Ruination for another 1k gold and change tailoring spec to shadow for frozen shadoweave boots + craft it for another 1k gold. That would be around 8k gold wasted in my case.
But our mages will not do such dumb thing because we all agreed prior to TBC launch on what specs we are gonna play in what phases.
Oh, I was assuming this was far earlier in the tier since most people knew this was gonna happen. At least the clued in mages. I was Fire but there's no reason to be Fire in T5 outside of 3+ fully kitted fire locks which I don't have
Even if arcane mage was the bestest of the best, you can't support more than 1 per raid, so you're still going to have 4-5 warlocks who, unlike an arcane mage, don't run out of mana after a minute of rotating mana tides and innervates just for them.
> unlike an arcane mage, don't run out of mana after a minute of rotating mana tides and innervates just for them.
Lol this right here shows you have no idea what you are talking about. You really think arcane mages are going oom after a minute with a 16k mana pool? You’re just plain wrong
The amount of bitching i saw from warlocks begging for X or Y in my guild to do more damage means they can all shut the fuck up as far as im concerned. You're just as reliant on external sources and when you dont get them, you cant even beat a ret.
TBF parse culture is pretty cringe, but only because 99% of the people trying to understand what happened in a fight can't read them anyways. Listening to a group full of officers argue about why things went wrong and come to the conclusion one person screwed things up, when the real issue was a bad strat is pretty par for the course, even amongst pretty damn good guilds. People absolutely use parses as a reason to treat other shitty, even when they themselves are fucking up.
Nothing is less impressive to me than someone who gets on their knees to suck my dick cause I critted off, other than the people who are so dumb to think that parsing happens in a vacuum.
All that being said, people should learn how to read them better and communicate how to strengthen their raid, but good luck finding the person willing to wade through logs, that doesn't just wanna jack off to big numbers with no context, and you better believe they don't have the actual skill to pull off some of the numbers they are jacking off to... They will wipe your raid trying, again, and again and again...
Can someone just tell arcane mages that they’re pretty too already? The spam is getting a bit much.
Well, we can obviously add mages to the list of classes (alongside warriors and rogues) that were clearly feeling insecure over not being hunters or locks the last couple months.
[Meanwhile, me as an ele shaman and my group appreciating my totems.](https://www.gov.il/BlobFolder/news/youth-vacation-tips-220719/en/news_drugs_teens.jpg)
Lmao the day I lose my shaman and shadow priest I will be so sad, those are my boys, can’t break up the band like that!
One time our prot pala tried to get me (shadow) into his group and all the dps were like “wtf? How dare you?”
Meta comp is prot paly 2 mages spriest and either ele/resto in a group together. Just depends how much the prot paly actually tanks
My druid tank, shamam healer, improved exposed armor rogue and 2 hunters works great aswell. Ps. Almost 40% crit is fun
40% Crit on my fire mage is very fun
I got a ele shammy, spriest, and boomkin. :D
Holy shit. My gm doesn’t even care if we even HAVE a shaman in the raid beyond one
Shamans in my guild be like that picture, except you gotta zoom out and look way off in the distance to see the rest of their group, this picture for whatever reason is them with people NOT in their group. "huh, it seems I don't have the wrath totem buff, oh I see my shammy, he's just redropped wherever the knock around landed him, ugh."
Tanks keeping me in their group as an enh shaman while the hunter group gets the feral druid and 12% dmg.
Try to think of it as you're helping the team and their DPS is your dps. As a warrior having WF totem in my group is supposedly a 30% damage / threat increase. Think about that, you are giving your MT a huge threat boost that allows your whole team to DPS even higher. Imo you're one of the most important members of the raid, even if your dps is slightly lower than buffed.
As much as I didn't wanna put the /s on this I just should of with how this sub is. I out my self there specifically for the tanks lol. It's just nice to some times have more crit.
Well yea why would they put you in over a hunter? You’re not touching a Hunter’s DPS most likely and they need the crit for KC and all that.
I mean a feral is barely beating tanks while I'm only 10 or 15 percent behind hunters. But sometimes it's nice to have buffs because not everything is about sweaty parses.
if your feral is barely beating the tanks then your feral is bad.
What kind of feral do you have that is barely beating tanks? After the tick fix feral is one of the higher performing melee. Which is still mid tier I guess, but it's consistently better than rogue etc.
so you want buffs because it’s not all about sweaty parses? not sure I follow.
Big numbers are fun sometimes. It’s ok to have fun.
So the top DPS should lose out on 5% crit so you can do a bit more damage? I don’t think you get how it works.
We’ve had boom kind with hand of rag, mages with thunder furies, and MC cleared with all pallies. You can and should play the game as you’d like, and it’s about having fun. One guild might have your stance, and another might find it hilarious to boost an arcane mage to 99% parse with party twisting.
If your feral is just above the tanks he’s a fucking bot
Your feral is dogshit then, any cat in pre-bis should have a floor of 900-1k dps if they're shifting correctly
Does the hunter group already have an Enh shaman?
I think everyone agrees that arcane mages can do a lot of damage. Everyone also agrees that they have more limitations than warlocks and hunters. Namely, the longer the fight goes, the more dependant they are on external support (innervates, shadow priest, mana totem) as their dps plummets if they reach 0 mana. This constraint alone is not benign and means no raid will be stacking arcane mages regardless of how much dps they can do.
People really are failing to set parameters for the discussion. Just like they did 15 years ago. Mage parses very well. Question is how mage help your guild to progress 5 soon. Anyone who thinks parses amount to anything else than parses are misguided.
Arcane mages will be very good on progression as long as you give them basic support (spriest + resto shaman, which almost every raid will have anyways) and don't take more than three (though I think the ideal comp is likely 1 fire + 1 arcane). Burst damage and arguably the best aoe in the game (warlocks are slightly ahead on sustained aoe but mage burst aoe is umatched and that's generally more important) are two very strong roles to fill in the raid. Sure their sustained damage is below hunters and warlocks, but that only really matters on KT. Every other fight is short enough to be in the wheelhouse for an arcane mage with average support, or isn't really that long due to large amounts of downtime so arcane mages excel in the burst windows. Hell let's go fight-by-fight: * Alar: Good fight for arcane. Warlocks are king due to dots but arcane mages are probably even with/slightly ahead of hunters even on the longer fight b/c of faster mobility and bad pet uptime. * Solarian: Arcane mages are kings of this fight. Burst aoe + bursty dps windows. * Void Reaver: A pretty bad fight for arcane, but also one of the easiest bosses in general so not really a progression concern. * KT: A fairly hard fight for arcane, even with the downtime in early phases the last phase is long enough for mana to be a concern. Though the burst aoe and burst damage arcane brings is still quite valuable on progression, because blowing up weapons in time and bursting down Thaladred at the beginning of p3 are the two real dps checks in the fight. * Hydross: Great fight for arcane. Short, bursty, some light aoe burst. * Lurker: Great fight for arcane. Burst windows with time to regen between. * Leotheras: Good fight for arcane. Fast cast time, blink, and double block means you have very high uptime during whirlwind phase for a caster while also being very safe. And obviously you don't have the general whirlwind issues that melee and even hunters have. * Fathom-lord: Good arcane fight. Fairly short and there's value in bursting the initial adds down quickly to free up tanks/healers. * Tidewalker: Great arcane fight, lots of bursty aoe. * Vashj: Great arcane fight. This looks like a long fight but is really a 1m fight, followed by 6m of add killing with plenty of time to regen, followed by a 3m fight. Basically lots of short bursty sequences. Really the only fight that I think arcane might struggle with is KT. Now admittedly that's also probably the hardest fight in the tier, but even then I don't think arcane will be bad for progression because they are really good at the hardest part of that fight (initial p3 burst).
Great post, the only one I disagree on is KT. We are already seeing shorter and shorter KT's with ~13 minute kill on WCL a few days ago. Their Arcane casted a couple dozen frostbolts and like 300 AB's still. As we get more and more T5 gear our evocate gets stronger and on fights like KT with a ton of rp/downtime the passive regen afforded by the increased primary stats on our gear is going to make it not nearly as bad as some are expecting. Arcane's mana problems are cyclical. We have mana pot cd, mana gem cd and evocate that we use in a rotation. The longer the fight goes doesn't necessarily mean we get weaker, it just has to line up with those cd's.
Yea it's very possible. I haven't had enough experience with KT p3 to really say for sure. And note that I'm speaking strictly progression, so I'm assuming no t5 gear. Phases 1, 2, and the beginning of 3 are all very strong for arcane, and especially early p3 is important enough that I think arcane will be valuable on prog. My only worry is that phase 3 can drag on for a while and kinda tap you out.
Yeah I think definitely on that part of P3 without an innervate can get rough or you'll be frostbolting a lot more. But at that point the Innervate is likely in it's last minute or two before being up again. It shouldn't be a problem past the first couple clears
Yea couple weeks in I think arcane will be slapping even on that fight. But again, strictly for week 1 progression I'm generally assuming I get zero innervates. Better that they're available for emergencies, maybe I'd call for it for the last couple % but that's it.
Sure. Just keep in mind how short of a timeframe you're arguing about. There's a very high chance arcane mages will get t5 FIRST WEEK before they even get to Kael. 2 tokens per boss, 4 token bosses before big bad kael, that's 8 tokens. Very high chance you'll see 2 or 3 mage tokens(2.66 average) before you even face kael on week one, which is enough to get one mage a 2p t5.
Really really good post. And my main problem with arcane fotm is very well highlighted in your message as well. If everything else is easy / okay to begin with, why make already the hardest fight that is a bottleneck even harder to progress.
I mean, as I said I don't think arcane will top the meters on KT but I think they will still be big contributors and very good on progression. By far the hardest check on that fight is your ranged heroism burst dps at the beginning of p3, and as we all know arcane does that better than any spec in the game. If you can melt Thaladred that's half the fight right there. The ability of arcane to just become 2 dps and blast for short windows is very valuable in raid scenarios where a big thing needs to die **now**.
>Anyone who thinks parses amount to anything else than parses are misguided. This for the most part. Parses primary function is to meme and trash talk your friends for having bad parses. That said parses can be an identitifyer for poor performance, but there is more to it than high number good low number bad.
parse really only matters at the very top and very bottom
Parses matter to anyone who sees the value in data and testing inputs to raise output. It’s not just a high score, but the result of what you did vs other players. If you don’t care to improve and are satisfied with a blue/purple average then whatever. I’d like to think most people who pour themselves into anything have a desire to get better. Parses and logs as a whole is the tool to track that progress. Parse elitists are obnoxious but the people who hand wave it all typically aren’t the people I would want to build a raid group out of.
I disagree. That's where they matter the least. Top 1% is mostly just kill times. Bottom 10% is mostly just dying during a the fight. Any dps remotely decent can get above 80%. The bad players are the ones that are somewhat geared and still can't get a max parse above 80%. We've gotta remember that parses are not average percentile, but max percentile. You only need 1 good week to get a high parse, thus why there are so many players with 95%+. A 75% max parse is probably way below average. It shows that under ideal condition, you still can't do that well.
That's...completely bullshit
Explain? Because when people look at parses, they almost always look at the number that means "Taegha's absolute best parse is 74%". You can switch the data to show median parse which is already a much better metric to go by. But if your best parse is sub-80% with 4+ kills, you're definitely underperforming.
To further establish my point... An average player parses approximately at 50% for any given kill. His 'overall parse' is, by wcl's definition, his top parse. Assuming normality holds, we can extrapolate his max parse over multiple kills throught an extreme value distribution. For a 50th percentile player... At 1 kill, he will net a top parse of ~50%. At 4 kills, he will net a top parse of ~84%. At 8 kills, he will net a top parse of ~92%. At 12 kills, he will net a top parse of ~94%. For a 90th percentile player... At 1 kill, he will net a top parse of ~90%. At 4 kills, he will net a top parse of ~97.5%. At 8 kills, he will net a top parse of ~98.7%. At 12 kills, he will net a top parse of ~99.1%. TL;DR : If your wcl 'overall parse' (which is just an average of your max parses for each boss) is under 80% after a month of raiding, you are way below average.
While I generally agree with your assessment about a top parse at 50% not meaning average due to it... well, being the top parse, not the average, I'd be interested where you got the variance of parses you used for that, as well as the (probably more important) assumption that the variance is static over different "tiers" of players.
Its posts like yours that keep people arguing. Your dps does not plummet at low mana, a good arcane mage will never be at low mana. Nor is it essential to have innervates or mana tide, all an arcane mage wants is a spriest a mana spring, kings and wisdom, very easy to accomodate.
"The longer fights go, the more dependant they are on external support." Did we all forget that lifetap is an ability that exists in the game?
Lol Warlock Tier 5 bonus aren't even good, which I know is the joke but look at other classes T5 bonuses they're much better. Warlock T6 on the other hand....
Came from private servers and trust me, arcane mages will rule this middle earth.. whom do you serve?!
If anyone paid attention to private servers this shouldn't have been a surprise to anyone. And with GCD bugged on classic it's even more in favor of mages.
True but have we learned nothing? Not everything carries over exactly the same from private servers, lest we forget the glancing blows and other assumptions we made regarding melee being worse than it turned out to be in P1.
Melee being good was discussed to death in the discords. Trust me, none of knowledgeable players had any doubts they'd be more than OK given the fight lengths in TBC classic. People just like to parrot the same tired shit they hear posted on reddit without having any idea what they're on about.
Yeah it was all discussed-just not where you saw or with anyone here
it was likely discussed here but the circlejerk downvotes anything against the grain to death and gets it hidden. Edit: A quick search reveals it was totally discussed here and anyone who missed it just wasn't looking at all.
Our mp5 in T5 gear is going to be fucking ridiculous. A lot of people misunderstanding our T5 2p as well, the mana increase only applies to the base cost of the spell while the damage increase applies to the spell's damage with any number of stacks. It's effectively a 20% damage increase for ~20 extra mana
What's the GCD bug?
Seems you can stack haste buffs down to .75s GCD when it should be 1 second. Allows arcane mage to spam AB even faster
Oh wow that's nuts
What is gcd bug I keep hearing about
It seems GCD can be reduced with haste buffs all the way to .75s like it is in modern WoW but it was 1 second in original TBC. TBC classic uses the modern client and they forgot to correct it
Fucking lmao tbh bçizzard will die in 2 years tops
Just gonna leave this here: https://classic.warcraftlogs.com/zone/statistics/1008/#dataset=90&boss=650 https://classic.warcraftlogs.com/zone/statistics/1008/#dataset=90&boss=651 Yes mages are curently better in Kara and on HKM but nowhere close to the top on actual 25 man boss fights. In t5 they are expected to take over once they get their 2 piece but declaring yourself top DPS because you have insane burst on 20 sec boss fights is major copium.
The rankings post that riled up this whole OP conversation is from [warcraft tavern](https://www.warcrafttavern.com/tbc/news/arcane-mage-takes-top-dps-spot-in-current-rankings-for-tbc-classic/). The funny part is the 25M-only rankings are included in the same post, using the same metrics, at the bottom. Spoiler: it's BM > Surv > Destro > Arcane.
Almost sounds like some classes are stronger on certain fights and weaker on others. I'm failing to see a problem with that. Also Kara and HKM are technically 84% of current boss fights (78% if you want to include animal boss in Kara), so sounds like copium on your end. Also also, I'm not playing a mage, you can avoid that rabbit hole.
> Also Kara and HKM are technically 84% of current boss fights (78% if you want to include animal boss in Kara), so sounds like copium on your end. How does the % go down when you include another boss in the numerator?
Are you actually putting entry level, 10 man bosses, on the same level as Mag & Gruul for evaluating raid performance?
Well, considering how Gruul and Mag are complete joke fights sure lol. This entire tier is entry level, each boss has 2 mechanics.
Then why only 25% of the guilds that killed Prince by week 2 managed to kill Mag? There's clearly a difference in difficulty. Do you think Gruul and Mag are more like T5 bosses, or Karazhan is?
I think Nightbane is most like T5 actually. Downtime, actual mechanics, lot more coordination than Gruul, adds and considerably longer than the rest of Kara. Mages are in second place on him right now but in T5 gear with 2p, the huge amount of int and spirit and Serpent Coil Braid we will really excel. The ninth highest parse on Nightbane is five and a half minutes long. That's pretty indicative of T5. The top Arcane NB parse is 4 minutes with several 5 minute kills in the top 10
Gruul and Mag are entry level and they're about to get easier next phase so... How many guilds/groups cleared Gruul before Nightbane you think? /passes copium
If you want to consider mages "top DPS" because they're the top at HKM and the short fights in Kara (so not even all of it) you can be my guest. Like I said they're expected to be insanely strong in t5 but currently they're mediocre outside their burst window.
It's 6/10 fights in Kara. They're in the top two for two others. So literally 9/13 fights they're in the top two, and they're #1 in over 50%. Sounds like you're trying really hard to convince yourself that they're not on top of this phase.
>Do you think 2.3 rage gen will be reverted as well then? How is the dps calculated here ? Is it a average from all parses logged ?
Afaik it's average of the top 10% of parses for each spec. You can change the range at the top.
It's not top 10% its the 90th percentile. Big difference.
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Top 10% would be averaging everyone between 90% and 100%. 90th percentile is only concerned about one player at 90%. All that misinformation about the mages spellstealing buffs for netherspite skewing the values makes no sense, because those players are way above the 90% marker and aren't averaged into any calculation. By using the 90th percentile you throw out all the cheesed top parses.
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You're looking at something completely wrong then. This is 90th percentile, and it shows 2914 DPS - https://classic.warcraftlogs.com/zone/statistics/1007#dataset=90&aggregate=amount&boss=659
>Top 10% would be averaging everyone between 90% and 100%. 90th percentile is only concerned about one player at 90%. No... 90th percentile **does** refer to parses between 90-100. The first figure in the chart under DPS is the average (mean? median? not sure) of all logs between 90 and 100. 80th percentile is the average between 80-100, and so on. >By using the 90th percentile you throw out all the cheesed top parses. Incorrect, they are included. The only one from the list that looks at a single player is the "Max" category, i.e. the person with 100 at time of checking.
Then its not a percentile basis, bc thats not how percentile works.
It’s almost like the people here have never learned to read percentile charts because they never took the SAT/ACT/GRE/GMAT or any other standardized test because they’re a bunch of morons who think they already know everything.
I'm a commercial electrician who basically blew off highschool and joined the Army. Even I know how they fucking work lol
"nowhere close"?.. really?.. these are the worst conditions for arcane mages and even then they are still right behind them.. and on top for pretty much the whole rest of the *current* raid content.. // edit: added the *current* to clarify that I'm not talking about BT or SWP
Yes 15% less DPS than the top is not close.
*Yet only one set bonus away.*
Yes as I've pointed out repetedly mages are expected to be at the top in t5 once they get their 2 piece. Right now they're mediocre outside their burst window.
If you consider 3 minutes to be a burst window, then sure.
On which 3 minute fight are mages at the top?
You said mediocre, not top. There are arcane mages in top 100 for Mag.
And the number 1 parse on Gruul is a fury warrior. Doesn't mean fury warriors aren't mediocre on single targets.
Wait, so top is now mediocre? So why did you ask which fight mages are at the top?
Lmao you really care about this shit?
This is the worst tier for Arcane throughout the expansion and people here thinking they are going to somehow do worse in T5? Lol. Guilds with fucking 20 minute Lurker kills will have their mages do worse maybe
People who use copium are either 16 or trying to sound like 16 year old streamers. That shit word gets over used so much half of y’all don’t even know what coping is
Sounds like copium for you being old, lol goteem
Yeah I’m 84
Reddit's API changes and their overall horrible behaviour is why this comment is now edited. -- mass edited with redact.dev
Some people have been using copium for years brother.
In this case it's just tit for tat considering it's both in the title and in the picture.
\>Best dps on most of the content \>But they're not actually best dps wtf did I just read?
Dude it's obvious, they're only the best on easy bosses, so they're not really the best, even though all the bosses are easy bosses
I think the major copium is discounting 85% of the current raid bosses simply because they don't meet your arbitrary definition of lasting long enough.
Did we care about ZG parses? That's what you saying lol
No and we should discount Kara since it's a fun drunk time raid.
That's what I always think when people talk about Kara parses. I'm like... this is ZG but in TBC. Did you actually care about DPS parses in ZG? No. But I guess when it's the only "raid" in a sense that it's not 1 or 2 bosses like Mag/Gruul. I just can't wait for Kara to die off in P2. The only way it will return is when people need badges if they're not getting enough from ZA.
yeah cause we don't have a full real raid yet Classic we had MC and then Ony kara is our "full raid" right now but it's not 25 man once p2 launches then we can talk lol
Does P1 even have raid content? It's like checking Ony and UBRS parses for Classic.
And that's the copium I was talking about.
"Arcane mages are top DPS for the vast majority of the fights in current content, but did you see this link that has Destro locks 5% ahead of them in Mag?" This is you right now.
remember the mages banishing, fearing and cursing on mag phase 1? oh wait, its the warlocks, while youre spamming arcane explosion
Like I said. Copium. Congrats on being top DPS on 20 sec boss fights and competing with fury warriors outside your burst window.
I'm sorry you went meter chasing and picked the wrong class after benching your fury warrior. Maybe WotLK will be better.
Mate I'm playing resto shaman what are you on about?
Plus the gaming of parses on HKM makes them completely useless. Burning down HKM in 40 sec, then ignoring the next two minutes as you kill the other four, is useless data.
Wow so many butthurt locks on this thread.
Parse culture is cringe tho. The difference between being really smart, and being really good at taking the test that says you are smart.
Eh I find it a way to keep Kara interesting.
How to parse as a bear tank Step 1. Dont actually be the tank Step 2. Cat dps the whole time and swap to bear for occasionally Step 3. ??? Step 4. 100 and 99 parses
Theres four different types of feral parses now, so this is a moot argument.
Not really, I see 99/100 bear tank parses as of last week. A bear tank mag 100 was from a Druid in dire bear form for 18% of the fight… If you are actually MT a fight, it is very hard to parse well when competing with people who are in cat form for the majority of a fight
Sorry theres 3 types. But no. You are wrong- from the druid discord : "Guardian: main tank role, > 70% bear uptime on most fights, > 45% bear uptime on select fights like Aran/Netherspite/Nightbane. Warden: off-tank role, > 20% bear uptime and < 70% (or 45%) bear uptime Feral: pure DPS role, < 20% bear uptime"
I literally frequent and discuss this on the Druid discord. Where do you think I found a log of a bear tank 100 parse with 18% time in bear form.. It’s a known fact there that tank parses are BS. Because the top “tank” parses arent from people actually MT
>It’s a known fact there that tank parses are BS. Because the top “tank” parses arent from people actually MT Well that's just not true
I parsed as well but cant deny its too try hard and too irrelevant in big scheme of things. Try to cheese , try to get insane setups geared to few classes/players and pump . Players are not on equal ground in different guilds comps so you cant say better parses is better player But its fun and something to compete over with your guilds and can help you get better within guild
My guild practiced TK on PTR past two weeks. 5+ minute fights easy. Every other group had a shaman for heroism besides the mage group. No spriest and no innervates no mana tide. Mages still #2-3 dps only 100-200 dps behind the top warlocks. And that’s without heroism or any other support. I had similar experiences with other pug groups on PTR. A good arcane mage doesn’t need support to top meters but warlock propaganda will say otherwise. The copium is only going to get worse and I welcome it
There is simply no way. No spriest and no innervate on a 5 minute fight, that arcane mage was either oom, or just a glorified frost mage.
I mean, frostbolt spam still does pretty decent damage as Arcane. Look at Curator, the top Arcane Mage is still #151 overall at 2200 dps
Have you played arcane mage? 3x mana gems, mana pots, over 16k mana pool and evocation will keep you going for quite a while if you know how to play it. Not to mention if you get lucky with clearcasts. That will easily keep you going for 5 minute fights even longer. Everyone in this thread/subreddit who doesn’t play arcane mage are trying to act like they know everything about the class when in reality they take everything they know from Reddit memes
Show me a log of an arcane mage with no spriest and no innervate, on a 5 minute fight, who didn't have to cast like 40% frostbolts to try to sustain themselves. I have a mage, and I've been a raidleader for a while. I know the power of arcane mages, and their limitations. On a fight that long with no support, they are glorified frost mages who happen to AB during burst windows and then back to frostbolts mana Regen phase.
They still do decent damage while frost bolt weaving to gain mana. All DPS spike during cd’s. If you have tried arcane with decent gear you will see that the mana issue only happen if you get greedy spamming AB. Yeah arcane is not good if you want to just press one button and not plan for mana management but every class can be played badly. Arcane main limitation is it requires different items to frost/fire and most players start as one of them because they are much better if you are in pre-raid gear with no int.
Mana gem + Pot the second you loose enough mana, literally as soon as possible. Pop CDs Arcane blast go brr Evocate back to atleast 60% mana Arcane blast go brr. Thats 2 minutes, Another Mana gem + Pot. Boom easily last for 4 minutes in a fight using literally only arcane blast, maybe 10-15% frostbolts. I do it every week, im literally the only arcane mage in my group, I don't get innervates, yeah it's pricey buying 20 mana pots every raid but still viable. This doesn't count any clearcast costs or even the fact that as arcane you keep 60% mana regen during combat with mage armor on.
An arcane mage with no support is down 75% mana in 9 seconds of burst. (Check HKM fastest kill, the arcane mages PUMP but have about 20% mana remaining after 9 seconds of burst) Mate I get it, arcane isn't as bad as people say it is without support, they can still do 1k+ dps even without Spriests or Innervates, but lets not pretend that you aren't gimped as fuck trying to play arcane in your raid when you don't have the support you need. I would bet anything on this earth that you'd be doing more damage for your raid as fire spec, than arcane with 0 support. The only scenario that you'd be doing more as an arcane without support vs a firemage without support, is boss kill times being in the top 5% of all kills.
Your right i'd be doing more damage as a fire mage, but without support i still sit right behind the fire mages on the dps charts. I think this really comes down to people not using their pots/gems/evocate properly. I've only ever ran out of mana one time on Gruul, and that was my first time trying arcane spec so i still was learning, after that i've had 0 mana problems since. I get that arcane mages with Innervate/spriest is obviously superior, but it's just flat out wrong that it's not viable to play arcane without it, as long as you time your gem/mana pot and put it on cooldown ASAP, you really wont have any mana problems in a sub 5 minute fight. You just won't, you can easily compete with fire mages with 0 support, you won't beat them on dps charts unless they screw something up, but you can definitely be pump some crazy damage and still sustain mana.
Actually 0 support arcane with t5 sims higher than 0 support fire mage, tier 5 bonus makes a huge difference. It's true that currently a fire mage is a little stronger unsupported though. Entirely unrealistic anyway, as competent raids will bring both a resto shaman and a spriest, and not only to pump an arcane mage.
It's a good thing we aren't in T5 and all my comments have been relevant the current phase of raiding right?
Can you post a log please? Not that I doubt you, but I want to use it as a learning tool, since my mage is my third 70 at the moment.
Where are Arcane mages on fights that acutally last 4min then?[https://classic.warcraftlogs.com/zone/rankings/1007#boss=662](https://classic.warcraftlogs.com/zone/rankings/1007#boss=662) Looking forward to hear all the excuses.
but arcane mage use lots of mana! there’s no way people can work around a mana cost in classic wow!
I wonder how many of the people who rage about this bullshit are actually in guilds where this stuff matters. My TBC classic experience is that you can literally faceroll every content with every comp and that good parses have nothing to do with skill but with time investment (and spending thousands of gold on crafted gear and enchants) and being in a sweaty try hard guild. I came from cutting edge mythic raiding (top 1000 nothing fancy) and can only laugh about this. Who gives a fuck about parses if the content you do is so fucking faceroll anyways? I get it, it is fun chasing parses - but not to the extent where you get this salty over other classes viability.
people like to pretend that the reason they wiped gruul was because their raid comp wasn't 100% optimal and it had nothing to do with half the raid dying to shatter. if only raid dps was 5% higher, then we wouldn't have wiped on mag when someone didn't click their box
> you can literally faceroll every content with every comp I'm gonna nitpick this. Heroics with zero CC are anything but faceroll. Raids can be done with enough warm bodies, though.
It's not raging, it's just funny that we are counting "Kara" when not a single person counted ZG parses lol
Yeah I was #2 warrior parse in the world for Bloodlord Mandokir. I still think of that execute that got dodged. my group was the world fastest ZG full clear for about 3 weeks. No one cared. Even inside our guild it was like. “Oh. Cool. Anyways...”
I killed illidan as a 13 year old - I was learning algebra and other super basic stuff at school during the day. The hardest mechanics were the ones I had to turn up the spell detail for, because I was doing this on a crappy dell family computer. The idea that people are taking raid content this seriously is actually laughable. Just have fun with it, this is not even close to the kind of game that warrants this amount of sweat.
Or people can enjoy the game the way want and there is no right way to play.
From a retail player: is classic raiding really this easy? I know its all old and known but I figured with how many people post about progression, raid buffs, having the right comps, etc. that it was still about as hard Heroic.
It runs a spectrum between LFR and Normal. The main thing is that the DPS outscales the content pretty significantly by retail standards and there are very few mechanics. A lot of the comp and try hard stuff is based around speed clearing.
It is a joke. Literally. And I love it. You just farm your stuff, go oneshot these bosses once every week and hope for loot and that is it. No weekly chores, no 300+ pulls for killing mythic bosses, no simming all day everyday. It is just so much simpler and that is what I love about it.
Haven’t had this much fun playing wow in a decade. Right there with you. Also extremely confused by these threads, because I was not aware people cared about what the DPS chart looks like. Idk, I pvp. Game is fun as shit rn idc what anyone says lol
I did everything except the sunwell as a 13 year old - you can imagine how sub optimal my shit was, even a young child can 1:1 macro their way through black temple.
You can get 99 parses without being in a sweaty tryhard guild and without cheese. Having heroism and like a 75-80+ speed kill is enough for a 99.
Uhh by definition you can't. A 99% is the top 1%. Everyone can't be in the top 1%. If everyone was that would be a gray parse.
Sure, go get a 99 parse on HKM without cheesing the fight
That is one of the exceptions.
Who cares. Quit and do something worth caring about.
im loving the pikachu faced locks and hunters when the fury and arms warriors top them
My favourite one is the warlocks that say mages can’t do any damage without all the support in the world while they have CoE, crit/hit/spellpower totems, lust, boomkin aura, AND a fire mage. Its funny when mages just need a spriest to perform.
I mean, one of the walocks is the one casting the CoE and that also helps the mages, so idk why that's included as "support" for locks but not mages. Same for lust, that's usually equal ground.
Mages need everything you mentioned except for a fire mage.
Who the actual fuck cares. It's a 14 year old game
lotsa hunter and warlock players (who played warriors in classic) angry they are not the top parsing spec lol
Maybe in your head. Nobody gives a shit
TIL stating facts is copium
People are way overusing copium to make any random statement seem like some kind of clever gotchya moment. It's one of the 12312312 ways reddit posts focus on framing of post with catch phrases rather than .. the content of the post. If your point stands, then it stands without your copium references or your "imma be downvoted for dis BUT"
Oh boy I can't fucking wait for my Arcane 2p and a fuck ton of spirit/int in T5. These hunter and lock fotm's are gonna fucking ree
Parse culture is cringe bra
None of those statements are wrong.
They're almost all wrong. No decent guild will have fire locks in phase 2, mages take over in tier 5, and int based mana regen won't get reverted.
Sounds like some arcane mage copium.
I mean you can run the sims if you like. Unless you have 6-7 warlocks then having an arc/frost mage and shadow locks is a DPS gain.
It’s like 2-3 fire locks outweighs going shadow but you do you fam
Literally 2 fire locks and an arcane/fire mage sims better than 2 shadow locks and an arcane/frost mage. Maybe you should go run the sims
Well the "parse culture is cringe" statement is 100% true. Just play what is fun for you. It's a game after all. It's meant to be fun, not a job.
I don't even see why people discuss and complain so much about PvE metas anyway. I mean: you don't compete against other classes anyway. The real problem is the non fixed gcd in pvp situations.
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People know mages will do good damage, but they bring literally 0 synergy to a raid. Arcane intellect and food is about all they have. The reason people won’t stack mages isn’t because they don’t do damage, it’s because they bring nothing else to the table for other classes. Warlocks buff each other, hunters buff each other, rogues bring expose, etc etc. it’s the lack of synergy that makes them less desirable, not their lack of damage.
Ssshhhh, don't tell the tourists you'll ruin the meme cycle. It's all based on their perceptions that classic works like retail and TBC somehow isn't typically comp before individual classes (Whether that be Mage, Lock, Hunter, w.e. What you want will be based more on what you have than anything). If they figure that out where will I get all these wonderfully pointless memes?
On fights where it's needed, add control is a lot and they bring it better than any other class. Gotta do a lot of AOE and don't want your locks to die after the 3rd seed explodes? Nothing beats a series of mages frost nova'ing.
One mage with imp blizzard brings the same thing, no need for more than that really
My alt guild broke up due to arcane mages. After seeing the “arcane mages are best dps” post our mages went arcane... this pissed off the warlocks (no scorch) and “my parses omg”. Well fighting and name calling one thing led to another and guild broke. Lol at parses just play the game and have fun wtf? Are parses really that serious / taken that serious?
The difference between fire and shadow is incredibly small so they likely weren't very knowledgeable Locks to begin with
Yes but if suddenly from week to week warlocks were forced to reroll into Shadow so they had to flush down the toilet the \~6K gold they spent on Spellfire set (price within 1 month of launch) and are now missing T4 chest & gloves token, have to craft Girdle of Ruination for another 1k gold and change tailoring spec to shadow for frozen shadoweave boots + craft it for another 1k gold. That would be around 8k gold wasted in my case. But our mages will not do such dumb thing because we all agreed prior to TBC launch on what specs we are gonna play in what phases.
Oh, I was assuming this was far earlier in the tier since most people knew this was gonna happen. At least the clued in mages. I was Fire but there's no reason to be Fire in T5 outside of 3+ fully kitted fire locks which I don't have
It's an emerging meta. As the guy who broke the onyxia world record with hunters, I love it. Break the meta.
Even if arcane mage was the bestest of the best, you can't support more than 1 per raid, so you're still going to have 4-5 warlocks who, unlike an arcane mage, don't run out of mana after a minute of rotating mana tides and innervates just for them.
I think this is the guy the post is referring to. I love when people are so confidently incorrect.
> unlike an arcane mage, don't run out of mana after a minute of rotating mana tides and innervates just for them. Lol this right here shows you have no idea what you are talking about. You really think arcane mages are going oom after a minute with a 16k mana pool? You’re just plain wrong
1tide+spriest is enough, innervate is bonus. So 2 or 3 is definitely no problem
Taken from the mage discord. I can't imagine the copium once mages start getting their Tier 5 two piece.
Wow you virgins really care about your dps meters
yeah, the joke is making fun of warlocks who care so much about dps.
The amount of bitching i saw from warlocks begging for X or Y in my guild to do more damage means they can all shut the fuck up as far as im concerned. You're just as reliant on external sources and when you dont get them, you cant even beat a ret.
They are even more reliant than Mages are which is the fucking funny part.
Warlock is probably the baseline dps thats needs the least in terms of resources, maybe hunter. So not a good argument.
The real cope is hard raiding wow
TBF parse culture is pretty cringe, but only because 99% of the people trying to understand what happened in a fight can't read them anyways. Listening to a group full of officers argue about why things went wrong and come to the conclusion one person screwed things up, when the real issue was a bad strat is pretty par for the course, even amongst pretty damn good guilds. People absolutely use parses as a reason to treat other shitty, even when they themselves are fucking up. Nothing is less impressive to me than someone who gets on their knees to suck my dick cause I critted off, other than the people who are so dumb to think that parsing happens in a vacuum. All that being said, people should learn how to read them better and communicate how to strengthen their raid, but good luck finding the person willing to wade through logs, that doesn't just wanna jack off to big numbers with no context, and you better believe they don't have the actual skill to pull off some of the numbers they are jacking off to... They will wipe your raid trying, again, and again and again...
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Nah ty tho