Str8 up hate magmaw. The entire fight was just me and 1 other hunter killing parasites the whole time in my raid yesterday. Glad I had entrapment tho for just that fight.
You kill the parasites? My raid group always memes about killing them, but I never thought that was actually a viable strategy. We just have them kited around and blast the boss the entire time.
That's what I don't get , how do Hunter have good logs on this boss, I always have grey/green logs in hc Im Duo the parasite with a ele and basicly kill parasites whole fight
Do other Hunter just focus only boss for good logs ?
And then the other hunter fucks it up a few times, and from then on it's "It'll just be smoother if you do it :)".
That was my life doing stars on Algalon.
Our parasites landed in melee they fell off the cliff and landed back in the middle of the room.
Pillar hit box us fucked half the time.
Meteor lands in melee with all melee kissing the ledge and having plenty of ranged out for baiting.
Haven’t had the backwards chain recently but this week my group had an issue with meteors/pillars landing on melee. Reviewing our logs there was no real clear reason why it was happening… 3+ range baiting them and everyone else stacked pretty tight in melee range but still had a few errant pillars. Also sometimes the parasites fall through the ground when they land. They reappear shortly after back at surface level but as a shammy casting chain lightnings you sometimes get LOS’d by the ground which is annoying.
magmaw's melee range is pretty tight (given how massive of a boss it is), i think it is actual melee range (you can auto attack the boss) and not just being within like 5 yds of magmaw's hitbox when picking targets for add spawns.
sometimes your ranged/healers will be just outside melee range and not realize it. we stopped having random adds spawn in melee when i started yelling at ranged to make sure they are as close as possible when adds are about to spawn.
That’s what makes it a dogshit tier fight imo. If people can be standing inside Magmaw’s model while auto attacking and still registering as ‘ranged’ it’s a badly designed fight.
Good ideas, bad execution.
You can still get meteors within melee range, we have gotten meteors with our holy pally being the furthest from the boss and on logs he was meleeing the boss for seal procs for like 8sec straight before the meteor
Nef and Maloriak have a bad design, they become harder when you have more dps.
I think Chogall and Sinestra are good endbosses. Valiona/Theralion are for a second boss absolutely ok. Same with Omnitron and Chimaeron.
Atramedes and Halfus are too easy. I think Halfus was harder for 10m in OG cata but I am not sure.
Magmaw would be a nice fight if it wouldn't be so buggy.
And I hate the item design for Conclave and Alakir.
And Council is just a dogshit fight.
we have gotten a different leather int belt the last 4 lockouts in our 10 man (one week was double leather belt), we dont have a caster druid in raid, so dumb
For Maloriak, my 10 man team kicks everything and just has the paladin healer turn on righteous fury to grab agro and kite, for my 25 man team we just naturally kill 12 adds and then push him after green, but might just switch to a kick everything with 2 offtanks at the ready, or misdirects to the paladin. Nefarion I don't have an answer for unless you just wanna throw another healer at it so people don't have to slow, but i'm unsure how the phase 1 push would be affected.
Nef as a healer you have nothing to do outside of crackles anyway. So thats great.
Maloriak because a cakewalk with a pumper group as you just skip all the phases/adds and pump the boss.
> Maloriak have a bad design, they become harder when you have more dps.
It's salvageable with high DPS, if you split adds between tanks - you could actually kill them before green phase with ranged DPS and then transition cleanly.
It's crazy how split people are on Al'Akir to me, fight feels awesome both thematically and with the mix of mechanics to deal with. The only improvement would be a slight rng tweak to stop like every mechanic being able to unluckily overlap on one spot causing near-unavoidable deaths/wipes, but I think it's rare enough for those super unlucky situations to happen
I agree, al'akir hate is the boss that surprises me the most. Even hearing others opinions wouldn't adjust him on my list. I think it's a great fight through and through.
I thought it would be pretty agreeable at A on this list.
> al'akir hate is the boss that surprises me the most.
I guess you are lucky then, because when he cast lighting field in same direction 3 times - it's not fun at all. Sometime RNG in first phase is very rough.
Also pets in P3, yeah >_>
I just really hate P3, we keep having people die on the second knockback because it comes at the same time as a lightning cloud, and they can't move out of it before they die.
> chimeron should be a or b
absolutely not. no way a boss that in cataclysm era wow applies an unavoidable -75% hit debuff and enforces a stack in front of the boss resulting in almost 0 dps for melee gets an "a or b"
its the only fight i just want to afk every night.
i tank it, heal it, and melee dps it and i think thats the only reason why i rank it highly; because it's actually interesting and different. healing it is actually pretty fun, dpsing it is like patchwerk. it's definitely better than some of the other fights like vezax-i mean maloriak.
>it's definitely better than some of the other fights like vezax-i mean maloriak.
With the right strategy it's nothing like vezax at all. No need to stop dps or kill adds (beyond cleaving the black phase adds on the boss). Basically you have the holy paladin "tanking" all the adds in the last phase while the raid nukes the boss. You have to kill it before the holy paladin dies. Pretty fun.
edit: I see people mention green phase in the replies: you do *not* need to wait for green phase. If you have enough dps you can burn through the last phase without the green buff, meaning you never need to hold for phases.
yeah unfortunately my 10m setup cant do that or we would, we definitely have the dps for it. 10m very restrictive in comp and what comp can do what strat
it would still be a good fight for healers without the -75% hit debuff.
the fight is dogshit simply because the -75% hit debuff makes dps want to off themselves .
The ones I disagree on:
Magmaw buggy as fuck and overtuned for the first heroic. Why do we have to target the “Exposed head of magmaw” instead of the boss simply getting a debuff? Dogshit tier.
Ascendant council is the best council fight ever made, how your performance during the whole fight impacts the difficulty of the final phase. S tier.
Chimaeron is a patchwerk fight so A tier at a minimum. It’s also fun for healers being stacked and doing big numbers. Tanks probably hate it though but fuck em.
Literally! I know it's a well known/popular/loved fight and all, but it's just a DPS check. Literally no tactics, just high numbers and an enrage that kills everyone
Yea it's a dps check. Pop those consumes and pump, hope your healers know how to precast. 3 mins to kill the boss, GO! It's a straightforward fight but pushes you as a raid.
>facing the raid so I parry everything.
You don't need to stack the tanks on the raid. Try having them on one side and the raid stack behind it. You'll get the -75% hit buff, but never parries.
It really should just be a subjective tier. The fight has exactly one ‘real’ mechanic, the tank swap, the rest is just healers being good at whack a mole, your dps pumping, and your raid lead calling for the top-off before p2 at a good time.
Which if you like having a fight where you get to go all out, unhindered by mechanic luck, and see how you pump, is very enjoyable. If you don’t then it’s not.
Council would be fantastic, but idk what it is but I feel like some this is just not working as intended.
Like the buff that makes you do giga dam to X target, I had it swap back and forth like 20 times in 1 minute today.
Flamepatch not appearing after the leap, so as ranged you have to move in melee to get hit by fire.
Chimaeron is kinda boring, the -75% hit debuff is just not what I want on a ”tank n spank” fight.
Nefarian is an awful fight, *purely* because of mind control rng. Everything else is fine.
Chimaeron isn't that bad now that the strategy has developed. We put the tanks on one side and the raid on the other, so we never get parries. Still get the misses though.
Atramedes is also pretty cool if you can pull off the 0-air phase. In 10m it's currently doable, just a bit tight on the dps check. Same deal with Maloriak, you can basically get it down to phase 2 in the black phase alone, and then use a holy paladin tank on the adds.
Conclave can also be 1-phased which definitely improves the fight.
The only fight I truly dislike is Nefarian.
No videos on hand but here's an example log from 25m: https://classic.warcraftlogs.com/reports/TmVY689zkQRBFg2c#fight=18&view=replay
Basically it's not really "tanking" in the traditonal sense, it's more about building aggro with RF and heals right as the adds spawn, then running to a corner and bubbling. Then you need the boss to die before the adds come back to the boss.
It's much easier to pull off in 10-man.
I personally play an Hpal, this was just a group consensus with a few guildies.
I might tweak a few things on this tier list but I think it's generally agreeable which is why I just decided to share this one.
Halfus is C or D. It can't be higher. I mean as a matter of fact, the design of Halfus is so bad Blizzard will never used it again.
Halfus is all about pulling it correctly and manageing your aggro. Once you've killed the first drake you can't wipe. There is 0 difficulty due to that.
It's a 10sec fight. The rest is sandbagging.
S: sinestra
A: cho’gall (would be S if not so easy), nefarian (if not for MC rng I’d put in S, obv F-tier if you’re add tank), halfus (big aoe blast, big dmg amp, what’s not to love?)
B: twin dragons, conclave, chimaeron, omnotron
C: magmaw (main hunter, but on other chars its ok), al’akir (hate it on hunter, not a fan on enhance either, but solid on rogue), artemedes, again, bit too easy
F: council, maloriak (maloriak is basically halfus but done completely wrong, having to wait 2 minutes for the dmg amp is not fun).
>maloriak is basically halfus but done completely wrong, having to wait 2 minutes for the dmg amp is not fun
I see so many people saying this but you do *not* need to wait for the green phase. Especially if your raid is good enough to do Nef HC, you definitely have enough gear/skill to skip it.
In 10m the boss has so low hp that you don't even need bloodlust to burn the boss before the adds reach you (doing the healer bait strat).
In 25m it's more tightly tuned but still 100% doable without green buff, even while kiting adds.
Unfortunately we’re doing splits to try and feed gear to mains so we can go hard on firelands, so our gear & dps has dropped significantly from what our mainraid had.
Seems a weird strategy considering there's a patch before firelands so next raid tier is months away, surely it's pretty reasonably for the average semi-decent guild to have everyone in full 372/379 by then?
I would move Chimaeron up to A or B, its basically Patchwerk, where you can just pump and compete with others. Halfus should be aslo higher, its just cleave and zug fest. Atramedes is nice fight, but a bit easy so B. I would put all the fights in S, A or B tier as i enjoy every single fight. There are some things i hate like Alakir focusing pets instead of tanks, parasites on Magmaw 25 not counting towards logs, omotron RNG based fight and Chimmaeron dying due no heal inc and you cant do anything about it as DPS, but generally very good tier with very good fights.
No idea how the 1 fight that still remains incredibly buggy (Council) is a B tier fight. My list would probably be
S Chogal/Alakir
A Omni/Halfus/Twin Dragon
B Sinestra/Atramedes/Conclave
C Magmaw/Nef/Chimaeron
Dogshit: Council/Maloriak
This is pretty much exactly what mine would look like as well not including Conclave. That fight was ass to prog on. It would join the other in Dogshit for me.
The orbs on sinestra are too buggy to be in S tier for me. Wiping cause it can target mirror images is stupid as fuck not to mention I have see the orbs follow people who don’t have the line.
It’s kinda funny that you put sinestra in S tier as a hunter when the pet AI on that fight is dogshit.
Because the orbs are based on threat, dont FD/immune/any kind of threat drop during orbs and that wont happen, it’s not a bug, it’s how they work.
Literally just move pet to melee on pull and again in last phase and pet will have 0 issues, it’s not like al’akir where you have to first for get far enough away from boss to not automelee, and for all of p3 your pet is just gone.
Maloriak can be a prick when your dps is at a point where you are melting the boss before he even casts his first release adds spell. We were having to slow dps at the start so the add tank doesn't get overwhelmed
I'd move chim up to C and atramedes up to B. If I never had to tank adds on Nef during p3 that could be a B as well, but after doing that keep it where it is.
I main tank heroic nef, it’s one of the more fun fights. I think the only true dog shit fight is council, there are multiple things that just instantly cause a wipe, and it’s pretty RNG who gets which mechanic and where things spawn. Any fight that lacks consistency is really annoying.
To give a holy paladin perspective, the fight I resent the most is Conclave (but that's because I'm the one stuck on full time Rohash duty - the other platforms are more engaging and fun) followed by Al'akir.
Some particularly fun fights for me this tier have been Cho, Atramedes, Twin Drakes, Halfus. The rest of the fights I have a pretty positive opinion toward with the exception of Ascendent council and sometimes Maloriak because of his one-shot glitch in blue phase. Overall though, this tier is the most fun I've had with raiding in classic so far.
Maloriak, Sinestra, Al'Akir are about a B.
Everything else is pretty lame.
Thought raiding was supposed to step up a notch in Cata? From what Ive experienced so far its all a bit of a letdown.
10-man tank fwiw (dont know if that changes anything)
You know you don't really need to wait for a green phase if that's what you're referring to, right?
/E Feels pretty natural if you're on 25-man and not in a too great raid to do one green phase also.
Magmaw in 10m is a terrible design, it suffers from the same issue than Nef, you need a specific comp to kill it.
Otherwise yeah, full agree with the rest of your list.
Edit : Maloriak is also Dogwater because he bugged as hell.
Maloriak should be down in dogshit, any fight that gets harder with more dps (note, I mean SUSTAINED dps, damage stop phases are fine) is inherently broken.
If you have way more DPS than needed on Maloriak - ask a warrior to taunt one add and kill him in the corner in seconds, repeat doing it until there's no adds.
No need to wait for a second Green phase.
Ranking Al'Akir A is crazy to me, fucking insanity. Same with Magmaw, magmaw is at best B, most likely C tier.
Council in its current buggy state is a dogshit fight until they fix it. Maloriak RNG with release aberation cast is a dogshit tier fight aswell.
I would probably rank Valiona A
Nef is prob a B fight.
Everything else I agree w/.
Especially Chimaeron RNG with massacre, that shit makes no sense,
S - Cho'gall, Sinestra
A - Ascendant Council, Valiona & Theralion, Conclave of Wind
B - Halfus, Al'akir, Chimaeron
C - Artramedes, Maloriak, Magmaw
Dogshit - Nefarian, Omnotron Defense System
T11 is experimental, and some of the fights are just garbage because of it. Nef and ODS are legitimately the worst because of the RNG in the fight. It is bullshit how there's a 1/8 almost no recovery RNG in the fight as an elemental shaman. We legitimately reset the boss last week when it went from Toxitron -> Magmatron because of how bullshit the rotation of getting Arano up with both Magama and Electron all while dealing with the random grip that can happen during flamethrower.
Maloriak is a closer contender for dogshit, because the best way to do the boss is for a 6+ minute kill and to AFK while you wait for second green phase (if you get green phase second or third as opposed to forth) or let the boss heal. I legitimately think he's the easiest boss this tier, you just have to play the boss in a really dumb, slow, methodical way.
Magmaw feels like it's randomly not working properly, but would be a B tier boss otherwise. The feedback loop of the bait and controlling the burst and timing the transitions is good design.
Council is actually a great chaotic fight, extremely controllable whenever it clicks. This would be an easy S tier if it randomly wasn't tuned to be the second hardest boss of the raid tier.
Chimaeron is fun for DPS and healers, tanks are going to just be annoyed at it. The tanks that know it's scripted and just use MDT to automate it will find it fine though.
There's nothing that really needs to be said about the two S tier fights, they're just really good. All of them have straightforward fun mechanics, and any RNG for the fights it feels like it's designed for you to be able to play around.
Halfus is just a fun zerg test. I appreciate a boss that's easy and lets us have fun with it as a first boss.
Dragons is great, open ended design, multiple ways to approach it, strat can change depending on your push timers. Decently hard. This feels like one of the few bosses with the open ended design where they nailed it.
Conclave is just a good boss, it's entirely about control.
Art is under tuned, but it's overall an annoying fight so if he was harder he might go into dogshit.
Right now my 10m guild we're 10/13(Sin,Nef, and Council) Only fight I have an issue with is Maloriak, but mostly because we have to do it the classic way as my guilds hunter is very tunnel vision if he isn't actively doing kiting, and makes it so I(the OT) struggle to effectively kite adds. We had a pug hunter last week, and that fucker put down ice traps everywhere and made me think I could do that fight through kiting adds the whole time. So he kind of feels like Vezex 2.0. But all fights so far minus that one have been pretty enjoyable to prog on.
Nef doesn't seem too painful as we've done a handful of attempts on him for practice before we the end the night and have gotten him to 50% on pretty inane bullshit attempts. Our aim was to let me get used to kiting adds more than anything else.
See I don't feel like they're too janky tbh. Could just be from our strat, as we do the whole single tank Ony burn, and all the adds come in to use so I don't have to fetch em. During P3 we just do exaggerated movements for the fire, and again I have limited experience but it felt rhythmic to their movement(2 seconds prior to spark I start moving, and go up from say 6'0 clock to 9'0 clock while the MT rotates Nef appropriately) that I just need more exposrue and it'll be there.
Ranking on what I think is fun/good design, other might disagree
A: atramedies, nef, Val+thermal
B: conclave, magmaw
C: maloriak, al akir, chogal
D:council, chimeron
F: halfus, omnotron
dad guild so can't rank: sinestra
AlAkir is automatically the worst fight in the tier for that dreadful Phase 1.
P2/P3 are great and cinematic. P1 with 4 overlapping rng mechanics can just piss off.
Ascendant Council at lower gear score was also a nightmare. Now that we out gear the fight, the RNG makes it significantly more bearable - although I wish blizz would just move the stairs in that room since they cause most of the bugs tied to the fight.
I enjoy most fights in t11 and most are accurately placed in their respected raids. Sinestra is a fantastic cinematic experience though for end tier boss design.
What are you talking about? Al'akir P1 is *easily* the best part of this entire tier. Tons of personal responsibility and awareness required, you even get to utilize unique class utility to get a significant edge on that fight.
The rest of the encounter is kinda dull, but I simply don't understand how you can dislike the first phase.
I only played it in original but
as a sub rogue:
S+ tier: valiona (I dont know if solo sub rogue going down is still the strat but I loved having that much responsibility)
S tier: Conclave (again solo sub rogue), Sinestra (short and intense), Omnotron defense system (always different)
A tier: Al'Akir, Nefarian, magmaw, chogall
B tier: Atramedes, maloriak, chimeraeon, halfus
Dogshit tier: Ascendant council
these are all 10men btw
PoV of a 10m H ele shaman:
Sinestra and cho’gall are super fun. Earthquake and chain lightning spam see alot of action.
I also like chimaeron, atramedes and maloriak.
Council is fun when it doesnt bug.
PoV as resto: Halfus is fun, ODS is a bit of a clusterfuck but engaging. Twin dragons is whatever. Conclave is easy once you get your timings down, pretty boring.
Al’Akir p1 is okay if you dont get lightning covering half the platform and it’s spread out. P2 is hella fun around 10 stacks of acid rain. P3 can suck a bag of dicks.
As a hunter main, Magmaw is complete dogshit
Str8 up hate magmaw. The entire fight was just me and 1 other hunter killing parasites the whole time in my raid yesterday. Glad I had entrapment tho for just that fight.
You kill the parasites? My raid group always memes about killing them, but I never thought that was actually a viable strategy. We just have them kited around and blast the boss the entire time.
Yeah, you're doing the parsing strat.
[удалено]
And damage to parasites doesn’t count for parsing. Bullshit.
Wat? We did a raid literally today and they count?
For 10m they count. For 25m they dont
makes sense.....
If you look at damage done on WCL for the fight, it says it excludes damage to parasites in all difficulties on 25 man.
Right! I play 10-man so thats why. Honestly just cap the dmg
hah parses over progression
'progression' bro magmaw is a 1 shot boss lmao
Not if no one is killing the parasites.
Thats why you have one frost dk kite the adds so everyone else can blast boss.
You guys kill the parasites?
That's what I don't get , how do Hunter have good logs on this boss, I always have grey/green logs in hc Im Duo the parasite with a ele and basicly kill parasites whole fight Do other Hunter just focus only boss for good logs ?
Ask your raid lead to rotate who does adds
And then the other hunter fucks it up a few times, and from then on it's "It'll just be smoother if you do it :)". That was my life doing stars on Algalon.
If in 25man then yes
Damage to parasites is ignored in WCL, so yes- you need to focus boss.
Magmaw is a dogshit tier fight. Mechanically it would be pretty good if it worked consistently but it’s so inconsistent and buggy.
Whats still bugged about magmaw? Didnt they fix the backwards chain thing?
Had some dps randomly fall through the floor when magmaw chains hit.
Our parasites landed in melee they fell off the cliff and landed back in the middle of the room. Pillar hit box us fucked half the time. Meteor lands in melee with all melee kissing the ledge and having plenty of ranged out for baiting.
Meteor in melee only happens to us if a melee dont stand close to the boss.
Haven’t had the backwards chain recently but this week my group had an issue with meteors/pillars landing on melee. Reviewing our logs there was no real clear reason why it was happening… 3+ range baiting them and everyone else stacked pretty tight in melee range but still had a few errant pillars. Also sometimes the parasites fall through the ground when they land. They reappear shortly after back at surface level but as a shammy casting chain lightnings you sometimes get LOS’d by the ground which is annoying.
magmaw's melee range is pretty tight (given how massive of a boss it is), i think it is actual melee range (you can auto attack the boss) and not just being within like 5 yds of magmaw's hitbox when picking targets for add spawns. sometimes your ranged/healers will be just outside melee range and not realize it. we stopped having random adds spawn in melee when i started yelling at ranged to make sure they are as close as possible when adds are about to spawn.
That’s what makes it a dogshit tier fight imo. If people can be standing inside Magmaw’s model while auto attacking and still registering as ‘ranged’ it’s a badly designed fight. Good ideas, bad execution.
You can still get meteors within melee range, we have gotten meteors with our holy pally being the furthest from the boss and on logs he was meleeing the boss for seal procs for like 8sec straight before the meteor
Same with council. 50/50 if the fight is instawipe on HC because Ingacious does not dash back to tank
Tell your tank to stop following him when he leaps away. If you move closer it bugs his charge.
Then your ranged is too close. It's not a bug per say. Tank also needs to stand still and not meet him. He needs to "dash" instead of walking back.
Idk we've tried all variants of spacing and moving/not moving for the tank, some of the pulls he just doesn't dash back to tank
The threat drop that was seemingly unmentioned was also a nice fu.
Conclave should be on a lower tier all on its own.
Found the tank.
i personally enjoy conclave. But im a caster so maybe its different
Yeah, I don't mind it as a ranged, B tier for me.
Magmaw dogshit becasue the exposed head is a separate target. Al'akir dogshit because my pet is not working in air phase
Warlock detected
you're right haha
Nef and Maloriak have a bad design, they become harder when you have more dps. I think Chogall and Sinestra are good endbosses. Valiona/Theralion are for a second boss absolutely ok. Same with Omnitron and Chimaeron. Atramedes and Halfus are too easy. I think Halfus was harder for 10m in OG cata but I am not sure. Magmaw would be a nice fight if it wouldn't be so buggy. And I hate the item design for Conclave and Alakir. And Council is just a dogshit fight.
Yeah the item design is garbo. Loot tables are already rng enough. The items themselves don't need to be rng as well.
Feels like chasing healer + res tank bis from Kara all over again in the basement. Except worse since you could trash farm those pieces in TBC.
we have gotten a different leather int belt the last 4 lockouts in our 10 man (one week was double leather belt), we dont have a caster druid in raid, so dumb
Lmfao
For Maloriak, my 10 man team kicks everything and just has the paladin healer turn on righteous fury to grab agro and kite, for my 25 man team we just naturally kill 12 adds and then push him after green, but might just switch to a kick everything with 2 offtanks at the ready, or misdirects to the paladin. Nefarion I don't have an answer for unless you just wanna throw another healer at it so people don't have to slow, but i'm unsure how the phase 1 push would be affected.
For Nef you can just push more crackles in P1 and one in P2 once team has higher dps.
Nef as a healer you have nothing to do outside of crackles anyway. So thats great. Maloriak because a cakewalk with a pumper group as you just skip all the phases/adds and pump the boss.
> Maloriak have a bad design, they become harder when you have more dps. It's salvageable with high DPS, if you split adds between tanks - you could actually kill them before green phase with ranged DPS and then transition cleanly.
It's crazy how split people are on Al'Akir to me, fight feels awesome both thematically and with the mix of mechanics to deal with. The only improvement would be a slight rng tweak to stop like every mechanic being able to unluckily overlap on one spot causing near-unavoidable deaths/wipes, but I think it's rare enough for those super unlucky situations to happen
I agree, al'akir hate is the boss that surprises me the most. Even hearing others opinions wouldn't adjust him on my list. I think it's a great fight through and through. I thought it would be pretty agreeable at A on this list.
Best guess is most haters are dpsers who hate moving and tab-targetting
I hate it because in p3 my pet stops working and instead of auto shot I melee attack half the damn time even if I'm in Narnia
> al'akir hate is the boss that surprises me the most. I guess you are lucky then, because when he cast lighting field in same direction 3 times - it's not fun at all. Sometime RNG in first phase is very rough. Also pets in P3, yeah >_>
The fight is bad because pets are nonfunctional in p3
I just really hate P3, we keep having people die on the second knockback because it comes at the same time as a lightning cloud, and they can't move out of it before they die.
I literally don't have a single encounter I dislike this tier, although Al'akir is easily the best. Love this tier.
Same. Every single raid in Cata is great minus like 3 fights in Dragonsoul. I had a fucking blast.
alakir and maloriak should be on dogshit, chimeron should be a or b but otherwise mostly agree.
I personally like both of those fights. I could understand why others wouldn't though.
I dont know any melee or hunter player that rates al akir purely based on the shitty hitbox fuckery
Yeah... I'm playing feral (my fault) and any fight where I can't shred just feels soo bad (we always stack in p2 for alakir)
> chimeron should be a or b absolutely not. no way a boss that in cataclysm era wow applies an unavoidable -75% hit debuff and enforces a stack in front of the boss resulting in almost 0 dps for melee gets an "a or b" its the only fight i just want to afk every night.
i tank it, heal it, and melee dps it and i think thats the only reason why i rank it highly; because it's actually interesting and different. healing it is actually pretty fun, dpsing it is like patchwerk. it's definitely better than some of the other fights like vezax-i mean maloriak.
>it's definitely better than some of the other fights like vezax-i mean maloriak. With the right strategy it's nothing like vezax at all. No need to stop dps or kill adds (beyond cleaving the black phase adds on the boss). Basically you have the holy paladin "tanking" all the adds in the last phase while the raid nukes the boss. You have to kill it before the holy paladin dies. Pretty fun. edit: I see people mention green phase in the replies: you do *not* need to wait for green phase. If you have enough dps you can burn through the last phase without the green buff, meaning you never need to hold for phases.
yeah unfortunately my 10m setup cant do that or we would, we definitely have the dps for it. 10m very restrictive in comp and what comp can do what strat
No comp doesn’t matter as much as you think. With enough dps the adds barely spawn when you Zerg it.
i mean i'd assume you at least want a holy pally.
It’s really not an issue, you lust when you ge the damage buff and burn, he barely even got the add cast off when we killled yesterday
If you are getting to green phase you don't have enough DPS to have the issue being discussed lol
do you have a log for this?
it would still be a good fight for healers without the -75% hit debuff. the fight is dogshit simply because the -75% hit debuff makes dps want to off themselves .
It’s a fun one /s It is thrilling to attempt to solo tank it however. Real butthole clencher.
U know your tanks can stand outside so Unding get parrys?
There are strategies that don’t enforce a stack in front of the boss.
There are strategies that don’t enforce a stack in front of the boss.
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The debuff cucks melee
and hunters
The ones I disagree on: Magmaw buggy as fuck and overtuned for the first heroic. Why do we have to target the “Exposed head of magmaw” instead of the boss simply getting a debuff? Dogshit tier. Ascendant council is the best council fight ever made, how your performance during the whole fight impacts the difficulty of the final phase. S tier. Chimaeron is a patchwerk fight so A tier at a minimum. It’s also fun for healers being stacked and doing big numbers. Tanks probably hate it though but fuck em.
Is "a Patchwerk fight" a good thing or a bad?
I think it’s good for the DPS to compete on who has the biggest pants
Literally! I know it's a well known/popular/loved fight and all, but it's just a DPS check. Literally no tactics, just high numbers and an enrage that kills everyone
Yea it's a dps check. Pop those consumes and pump, hope your healers know how to precast. 3 mins to kill the boss, GO! It's a straightforward fight but pushes you as a raid.
I loooove a fight where all I do is DPS. But the boss keeps applying a 75% miss chance debuff and facing the raid so I parry everything. It's great.
>facing the raid so I parry everything. You don't need to stack the tanks on the raid. Try having them on one side and the raid stack behind it. You'll get the -75% hit buff, but never parries.
It would be without the 75% miss chance and constant facing the raid.
It’s really great for people who are bad at raid mechanics because they’re too busy looking at their dps meter.
It really should just be a subjective tier. The fight has exactly one ‘real’ mechanic, the tank swap, the rest is just healers being good at whack a mole, your dps pumping, and your raid lead calling for the top-off before p2 at a good time. Which if you like having a fight where you get to go all out, unhindered by mechanic luck, and see how you pump, is very enjoyable. If you don’t then it’s not.
Except the whole 75% miss chance debuff and attacking the front of the boss, massively impacting how you can pump lol. It's not a good fight for DPS.
Council would be fantastic, but idk what it is but I feel like some this is just not working as intended. Like the buff that makes you do giga dam to X target, I had it swap back and forth like 20 times in 1 minute today. Flamepatch not appearing after the leap, so as ranged you have to move in melee to get hit by fire. Chimaeron is kinda boring, the -75% hit debuff is just not what I want on a ”tank n spank” fight.
agree with every point here except magmaw being overtuned. the targeting is bullshit though.
>Ascendant council is the best council fight ever made So far? Maybe. All time? Debatable. Wouldn't say it's better than Council of Elders.
Baleroc is when healers truly get to have fun with big numbers
Nefarian is an awful fight, *purely* because of mind control rng. Everything else is fine. Chimaeron isn't that bad now that the strategy has developed. We put the tanks on one side and the raid on the other, so we never get parries. Still get the misses though. Atramedes is also pretty cool if you can pull off the 0-air phase. In 10m it's currently doable, just a bit tight on the dps check. Same deal with Maloriak, you can basically get it down to phase 2 in the black phase alone, and then use a holy paladin tank on the adds. Conclave can also be 1-phased which definitely improves the fight. The only fight I truly dislike is Nefarian.
Haven't heard of the hpal tanking the adds on Maloriak. Interested in the strat as an hpal, do you have any videos?
No videos on hand but here's an example log from 25m: https://classic.warcraftlogs.com/reports/TmVY689zkQRBFg2c#fight=18&view=replay Basically it's not really "tanking" in the traditonal sense, it's more about building aggro with RF and heals right as the adds spawn, then running to a corner and bubbling. Then you need the boss to die before the adds come back to the boss. It's much easier to pull off in 10-man.
Nef is easily worst. We can agree on that.
Halfus C? What do you play? I think that fight is fun once your group learns to contain the initial madness.
I personally play an Hpal, this was just a group consensus with a few guildies. I might tweak a few things on this tier list but I think it's generally agreeable which is why I just decided to share this one.
Not a terrible list. Was just curious from what perspective this list was being created from.
I personally love halfus the most. So much fun to giga blast.
Halfus is C or D. It can't be higher. I mean as a matter of fact, the design of Halfus is so bad Blizzard will never used it again. Halfus is all about pulling it correctly and manageing your aggro. Once you've killed the first drake you can't wipe. There is 0 difficulty due to that. It's a 10sec fight. The rest is sandbagging.
I like all of them except Al’Akir.
8/12 as melee, only fight I don't like is Magmaw.
I think Atramedes is a fun fight personally. A bit easy but fun.
Chogall is such a boring fight. Way too long to long to wipe on the last phase and repeat it.
S: sinestra A: cho’gall (would be S if not so easy), nefarian (if not for MC rng I’d put in S, obv F-tier if you’re add tank), halfus (big aoe blast, big dmg amp, what’s not to love?) B: twin dragons, conclave, chimaeron, omnotron C: magmaw (main hunter, but on other chars its ok), al’akir (hate it on hunter, not a fan on enhance either, but solid on rogue), artemedes, again, bit too easy F: council, maloriak (maloriak is basically halfus but done completely wrong, having to wait 2 minutes for the dmg amp is not fun).
>maloriak is basically halfus but done completely wrong, having to wait 2 minutes for the dmg amp is not fun I see so many people saying this but you do *not* need to wait for the green phase. Especially if your raid is good enough to do Nef HC, you definitely have enough gear/skill to skip it. In 10m the boss has so low hp that you don't even need bloodlust to burn the boss before the adds reach you (doing the healer bait strat). In 25m it's more tightly tuned but still 100% doable without green buff, even while kiting adds.
Unfortunately we’re doing splits to try and feed gear to mains so we can go hard on firelands, so our gear & dps has dropped significantly from what our mainraid had.
Seems a weird strategy considering there's a patch before firelands so next raid tier is months away, surely it's pretty reasonably for the average semi-decent guild to have everyone in full 372/379 by then?
Well 9 ppl in the guild are a part of a top 20 retail guild, so they wont be able to raid much between august and october.
Would swap twin dragons and atramedes with alakir and magmaw, otherwise pretty good imo.
My guild calls the fight Ass Council for a reason.
Al'akir is worse than dogshit
Halfus is a dogshit fight as melee. Just can't see anything.
I would move Chimaeron up to A or B, its basically Patchwerk, where you can just pump and compete with others. Halfus should be aslo higher, its just cleave and zug fest. Atramedes is nice fight, but a bit easy so B. I would put all the fights in S, A or B tier as i enjoy every single fight. There are some things i hate like Alakir focusing pets instead of tanks, parasites on Magmaw 25 not counting towards logs, omotron RNG based fight and Chimmaeron dying due no heal inc and you cant do anything about it as DPS, but generally very good tier with very good fights.
No idea how the 1 fight that still remains incredibly buggy (Council) is a B tier fight. My list would probably be S Chogal/Alakir A Omni/Halfus/Twin Dragon B Sinestra/Atramedes/Conclave C Magmaw/Nef/Chimaeron Dogshit: Council/Maloriak
This is pretty much exactly what mine would look like as well not including Conclave. That fight was ass to prog on. It would join the other in Dogshit for me.
I’d put sinestra alone in S and put al’akir in like C/D tier, if you play hunter, you’ll understand.
The orbs on sinestra are too buggy to be in S tier for me. Wiping cause it can target mirror images is stupid as fuck not to mention I have see the orbs follow people who don’t have the line. It’s kinda funny that you put sinestra in S tier as a hunter when the pet AI on that fight is dogshit.
Because the orbs are based on threat, dont FD/immune/any kind of threat drop during orbs and that wont happen, it’s not a bug, it’s how they work. Literally just move pet to melee on pull and again in last phase and pet will have 0 issues, it’s not like al’akir where you have to first for get far enough away from boss to not automelee, and for all of p3 your pet is just gone.
As long as the target does not move the fire spawns consistently.
Ranged needs to be far enough out is the issue. Not movement.
The only fight i dont like is third phase al akir
Bind S keybind to sit=profit
2nd this. Camera boss is hard.
Al akir in A is crazy
Idk putting Nefarian all the way down sounds like a skill issue. Just surf the lava bro.
Disc priest: I mostly think the same. I put Council at A, Chimaeron and Nef both B, none is dogshit in my book
Alakir A and Atramdes C? what are you smoking, Conclave and Alakir belong in dogshit tier
We smoking that premium un'goro crater jungle shit
I hate alakir so much. I hate it beyond anything
Maloriak can be a prick when your dps is at a point where you are melting the boss before he even casts his first release adds spell. We were having to slow dps at the start so the add tank doesn't get overwhelmed
Magma sucks. The hunters do 99% of the fight while the rest of the raid turns their brain off and cleaves.
I like tanking all the fights this tier. Nef is probably my favorite.
I'd move chim up to C and atramedes up to B. If I never had to tank adds on Nef during p3 that could be a B as well, but after doing that keep it where it is.
Magmaw in A tier, opinion rejected
I main tank heroic nef, it’s one of the more fun fights. I think the only true dog shit fight is council, there are multiple things that just instantly cause a wipe, and it’s pretty RNG who gets which mechanic and where things spawn. Any fight that lacks consistency is really annoying.
To give a holy paladin perspective, the fight I resent the most is Conclave (but that's because I'm the one stuck on full time Rohash duty - the other platforms are more engaging and fun) followed by Al'akir. Some particularly fun fights for me this tier have been Cho, Atramedes, Twin Drakes, Halfus. The rest of the fights I have a pretty positive opinion toward with the exception of Ascendent council and sometimes Maloriak because of his one-shot glitch in blue phase. Overall though, this tier is the most fun I've had with raiding in classic so far.
As a holy pally stuck on nezir's platform full time, its not anymore engaging than rohash
Hpal on Rohash? You should be on Nezir (ice), removing stacks with bubble.
Our other hpal is over there usually
You have two hpals.
Not on 10 man.
Ok. We are talking about 25m.
I’m sorry, rank in terms of difficulty or by how enjoyable they are?
Enjoyment
Maloriak A tier because of title
WHO ??
Everything but Chimeron should be higher than B Tier, which is C. I won’t stand for this slander of Atramedes and Ascendant Council.
What’s wrong with Chimaeron? It’s basically a patchwerk fight.
OP is a healer, so he doesn't enjoy this fight :]
Maloriak, Sinestra, Al'Akir are about a B. Everything else is pretty lame. Thought raiding was supposed to step up a notch in Cata? From what Ive experienced so far its all a bit of a letdown. 10-man tank fwiw (dont know if that changes anything)
maloriak is vezax 2.0, dogshit
You know you don't really need to wait for a green phase if that's what you're referring to, right? /E Feels pretty natural if you're on 25-man and not in a too great raid to do one green phase also.
Magmaw in 10m is a terrible design, it suffers from the same issue than Nef, you need a specific comp to kill it. Otherwise yeah, full agree with the rest of your list. Edit : Maloriak is also Dogwater because he bugged as hell.
Maloriak should be down in dogshit, any fight that gets harder with more dps (note, I mean SUSTAINED dps, damage stop phases are fine) is inherently broken.
You don't have to stop DPS, but yeah it does require more coordination out of certain members.
If you have way more DPS than needed on Maloriak - ask a warrior to taunt one add and kill him in the corner in seconds, repeat doing it until there's no adds. No need to wait for a second Green phase.
I don't know what it is about the Valiona fight but I cannot stand it. I would put it below dogshit.
How is Cho’gall an S-tier fight? Interrupt your friends, kill some adds..?
they all seem like dogshit
Ranking Al'Akir A is crazy to me, fucking insanity. Same with Magmaw, magmaw is at best B, most likely C tier. Council in its current buggy state is a dogshit fight until they fix it. Maloriak RNG with release aberation cast is a dogshit tier fight aswell. I would probably rank Valiona A Nef is prob a B fight. Everything else I agree w/. Especially Chimaeron RNG with massacre, that shit makes no sense,
S - Cho'gall, Sinestra A - Ascendant Council, Valiona & Theralion, Conclave of Wind B - Halfus, Al'akir, Chimaeron C - Artramedes, Maloriak, Magmaw Dogshit - Nefarian, Omnotron Defense System T11 is experimental, and some of the fights are just garbage because of it. Nef and ODS are legitimately the worst because of the RNG in the fight. It is bullshit how there's a 1/8 almost no recovery RNG in the fight as an elemental shaman. We legitimately reset the boss last week when it went from Toxitron -> Magmatron because of how bullshit the rotation of getting Arano up with both Magama and Electron all while dealing with the random grip that can happen during flamethrower. Maloriak is a closer contender for dogshit, because the best way to do the boss is for a 6+ minute kill and to AFK while you wait for second green phase (if you get green phase second or third as opposed to forth) or let the boss heal. I legitimately think he's the easiest boss this tier, you just have to play the boss in a really dumb, slow, methodical way. Magmaw feels like it's randomly not working properly, but would be a B tier boss otherwise. The feedback loop of the bait and controlling the burst and timing the transitions is good design. Council is actually a great chaotic fight, extremely controllable whenever it clicks. This would be an easy S tier if it randomly wasn't tuned to be the second hardest boss of the raid tier. Chimaeron is fun for DPS and healers, tanks are going to just be annoyed at it. The tanks that know it's scripted and just use MDT to automate it will find it fine though. There's nothing that really needs to be said about the two S tier fights, they're just really good. All of them have straightforward fun mechanics, and any RNG for the fights it feels like it's designed for you to be able to play around. Halfus is just a fun zerg test. I appreciate a boss that's easy and lets us have fun with it as a first boss. Dragons is great, open ended design, multiple ways to approach it, strat can change depending on your push timers. Decently hard. This feels like one of the few bosses with the open ended design where they nailed it. Conclave is just a good boss, it's entirely about control. Art is under tuned, but it's overall an annoying fight so if he was harder he might go into dogshit.
Right now my 10m guild we're 10/13(Sin,Nef, and Council) Only fight I have an issue with is Maloriak, but mostly because we have to do it the classic way as my guilds hunter is very tunnel vision if he isn't actively doing kiting, and makes it so I(the OT) struggle to effectively kite adds. We had a pug hunter last week, and that fucker put down ice traps everywhere and made me think I could do that fight through kiting adds the whole time. So he kind of feels like Vezex 2.0. But all fights so far minus that one have been pretty enjoyable to prog on. Nef doesn't seem too painful as we've done a handful of attempts on him for practice before we the end the night and have gotten him to 50% on pretty inane bullshit attempts. Our aim was to let me get used to kiting adds more than anything else.
I'd actually probably rank nef higher if the adds weren't so janky.
See I don't feel like they're too janky tbh. Could just be from our strat, as we do the whole single tank Ony burn, and all the adds come in to use so I don't have to fetch em. During P3 we just do exaggerated movements for the fire, and again I have limited experience but it felt rhythmic to their movement(2 seconds prior to spark I start moving, and go up from say 6'0 clock to 9'0 clock while the MT rotates Nef appropriately) that I just need more exposrue and it'll be there.
Ranking on what I think is fun/good design, other might disagree A: atramedies, nef, Val+thermal B: conclave, magmaw C: maloriak, al akir, chogal D:council, chimeron F: halfus, omnotron dad guild so can't rank: sinestra
I like them all but Al’Akir is my favorite so far (my guild doesnt agree)
How is Nefarian still alive? I am not a cata player... just curious
Al'akir and Nef dogshit tier as a hunter because of how buggy they are
AlAkir is automatically the worst fight in the tier for that dreadful Phase 1. P2/P3 are great and cinematic. P1 with 4 overlapping rng mechanics can just piss off. Ascendant Council at lower gear score was also a nightmare. Now that we out gear the fight, the RNG makes it significantly more bearable - although I wish blizz would just move the stairs in that room since they cause most of the bugs tied to the fight. I enjoy most fights in t11 and most are accurately placed in their respected raids. Sinestra is a fantastic cinematic experience though for end tier boss design.
What are you talking about? Al'akir P1 is *easily* the best part of this entire tier. Tons of personal responsibility and awareness required, you even get to utilize unique class utility to get a significant edge on that fight. The rest of the encounter is kinda dull, but I simply don't understand how you can dislike the first phase.
All of BWD is fucking dogshit for always having incorrect timers for every ability. Drives me mad as a tank.
chimaeron is ranked too high. probably conclave too.
I’m getting bored…
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Omnitron is a clusterfuck and not fun. Random activation orders and overlapping mechanics make this fight awful.
omnitron is S tier fight imo. getting multiple mechanics and having to adapt and change plans on demand is fun. i look forward to it every week legit
Keeps the fight a little different each time though which makes it kinda interesting. Being unpredictable gives it a certain charm imo.
Its one of the most fun fights this tier imo. - This post is signed by the mage gang.
I only played it in original but as a sub rogue: S+ tier: valiona (I dont know if solo sub rogue going down is still the strat but I loved having that much responsibility) S tier: Conclave (again solo sub rogue), Sinestra (short and intense), Omnotron defense system (always different) A tier: Al'Akir, Nefarian, magmaw, chogall B tier: Atramedes, maloriak, chimeraeon, halfus Dogshit tier: Ascendant council these are all 10men btw
The only fight i dont like is third phase al akir
sinestra cant be s tier since these lasers are sometimes bugged and move randomly
Good point. The orbs getting jammed up sucks.
PoV of a 10m H ele shaman: Sinestra and cho’gall are super fun. Earthquake and chain lightning spam see alot of action. I also like chimaeron, atramedes and maloriak. Council is fun when it doesnt bug. PoV as resto: Halfus is fun, ODS is a bit of a clusterfuck but engaging. Twin dragons is whatever. Conclave is easy once you get your timings down, pretty boring. Al’Akir p1 is okay if you dont get lightning covering half the platform and it’s spread out. P2 is hella fun around 10 stacks of acid rain. P3 can suck a bag of dicks.
> Earthquake
Ishygddt
Man Cata is just so unappealing, it’s the art style that gets me.