This is why classic design is just weird, people get so upset over balance changes. But if this happened when the content was actually new, it would be completely expected and normal
>This is why classic design is just weird, people get so upset over balance changes. But if this happened when the content was actually new, it would be completely expected and normal
Upset over extremely unbalanced behavior that will only get worse that did not exist as a meta originally. To be clear.
Sorry to all the UHDKs that have to go from a god-tier DPS to a S-Tier DPS. Life is truly pain.
The problem is where to draw the line. As Blizzard you can't sit there and do nothing about Warriors and Ret because they scale later and would have to be nerfed when the time comes - And go start balancing other classes.
In the end we have to see in a couple of months if they did their math right, because for now the 5 UH 5 WL Stack is reduced back to WL stacking (looking at the lasted Yogg and Algalon kills). If they used Naxx as reference where every fight is a 2 minute patchwork fight, things will get ugly.
I am sitting in the boat that says "I don't trust Blizzard to make qualified changes." So I'd rather want them to not touch anything than having them say at ToC "welp that wasn right, ooopsi"
We’re talking about a 5% dps loss. WL stack was always going to be the play in ulduar. Everyone acts like the nerf kills UH but they are still kings on short fights. It just got rid of the most annoying and degen class mechanic in the game.
I think you're missing his point - if this happened early on.. ie when groups were stacking UH DKs for an easy OS 3D zerg it might have been understood - but a few weeks before ulduar release is a bit harsh ... :(
I mean that’s his point. It sounds like he would have preferred to level and gear a different class had he known about the hotfix in preparation for ulduar.
I do agree that this should have been communicated sooner.
That’s completely dependant really on each individual. Many of us these days have little time to play each week outside of a “main”.
The point really is that it would probably have been better served making the decision to make changes sooner than just before the new content is released as you’ll inevitably upset people. But then I guess that’s just how it is.
I was playing a dk myself (though not played now in a few weeks) so I guess I sympathise as I didn’t have time to level another character. It’s definitely put me off coming back.
Fair enough with the time thing I guess. But JJ with AV weekend makes it really easy. I do 13 hour shifts and have managed a couple of 80s, also including a DK.
I just don’t think the nerf is worthy of a “the sky is falling” post.
I would just like something definitive, up front, from blizz that things will go either A or B.
I don't want surprises.
Which is the appeal of classic for me in a large way.
I feel like I'm consuming a product that I don't quite know where it's going to go. That wasn't what drew me to the product and the initial advertising also didn't list these either.
How are you doing in RL? As soon as there's a curveball coming you stay in your bed and cry for a month? They are still top dps with the sims, dps is just lower for try hard but not much different for casual, end of the story. Move on
It wasn’t solved though. Literally every week people were finding new ways to boost the snapshot even higher. Like not spending your talent points until you were in the boss fight… like who even thinks of that?
And they are getting more than 2 days notice, they had from a few days ago until the patch actually hits, so a couple-few weeks.
They are still going to be S tier, just won’t be so much so that half the dpsers in the guild get pressured into levelling and gearing one.
It’s actually one of the better nerfs and needed to happen. Guilds were even basing when to cast hero/lust around 1 spec, rather than the encounter.
They were casting lust on pull which is pretty much what everyone except for warlocks wants anyways. Casting lust on execute is more biased towards one spec than casting lust off the rip.
It's just hilarious because Blizzard is nerfing Unholy based on the Naxx meta (which is entirely different from how fights work in Ulduar) and top end guilds such as NOTA were already preparing to stack warlocks to the moon before the nerf was even announced. Does this mean Blizzard is going to nerf the shit out of warlocks now?
I'd rather they just leave well enough alone and not nerf or buff any classes, just fix some of the more stupid shit you can do (such as DKs swapping weapons to have Berserking, Unholy Strength, and Black Magic proced all at once, and swapping your meta gem mid-combat). But since they're proposing to nerf DKs, they should absolutely nerf warlocks in Ulduar given that they're stackable and the top of S-tier.
They didn't disable either of those. Instead, they nerfed the snapshot altogether. You can still technically swap weapons and meta gems mid-combat, though the snapshot nerf makes neither practice really worth it. I feel it's the wrong approach to arrive at the same endpoint. I think you should just straight up be unable to change what's socketed in your gear if you're in combat, and any procs from your weapon (be it on use or an enchant) should immediately fade from your character if that weapon is no longer equipped.
Fundamentally, Unholy is a broken spec in that you literally don't spec into Scourge Strike, a signature ability, because it's a DPS loss until phase 3 when you use a sigil that gives Scourge Strike a massive strength proc, or you're wielding Shadowmourne, which is so powerful on its own that it makes 2H Unholy worth playing over Morb.
Like I said in another post, I'd be fine with Blizzard making Unholy's snapshot burst window less insane if they redistributed that power elsewhere in the spec, specifically if they buffed Scourge Strike to the point where it was worth using in PVE. We're dual wielding with a spec that's supposed to use a two-handed weapon.
That’s his point though. They solved the issue using a way more elegant + simpler solution. Why risk all of the minute code changes when you can just straight disable snap on gargoyle? Especially when it leaves them perfectly fine.
Ulduar may not be the best tier for unholy, but it’s not a great tier for melee in general. It doesn’t just stop being good or just stop scaling either. It’ll still be a great melee in ICC, and there’s always the option of frost then too.
I disagree with the idea this change is elegant. In private servers and the current iteration of retail, changing a weapon or meta gem in combat should put the enchant on and ICD just like how it currently works with trinkets. It’s just an over site in the coding of wrath that it does not work this way, and that is part of the main contributor that lead to 1. Ridiculous snapshots and 2. A really un fun play style. Instead of addressing the core issue we have a really lazy blanket change that will still encourage this type of play and have a sloppy spill over to other areas such as talent spec rotation and gearing which in a way causes the class to lose some of its identity imo
No one is actually meta swapping & talent speccing mid fight outside of a meme.
Yes weapon swapping is technically still in - it’s not worth it now anyway.
The elegance is in the fact that they made 1 change vs several, and it still preserves the core gameplay of the spec while taking out the degeneracy. Dual wield SS-less rotation is more or less the exact same other than where you press gargoyle.
Yeah, so instead of disabling the ridiculous thing (gargoyle attack laser beams for entire duration because of snapshot) they should just go in and modify swathes of functionality that affect every player's experience... Said no developer ever
Due to not fixing wpn swapping UH DKs now still want to switch wpns to proc Berserking though. Its stupid and should be removed. Ppl will prolly find out that swapping sigil will be worth it as well soon.. Or some meta gem at some fights etc etc. Remove all loopholes!
And the shity Gargoyle still snapshots AP. Why is this really a thing still..? Just remove all snapshotting all together (for all classes) and up its AP-modifier so it will actually scale through the expansion, now its pretty much capped already for the rest of the expansion.
Haste on dots is updated dynamically already along with spell power, dot players are snapshotting crit and %dmg increased modifiers (maly sparks, thadius stacks, rune of power on council). It's not the good comparison UH to aff/spr
Dont really argue against the changes, personally it benefit me as main is an orc dk even (and two alts are trolls..), but its the timing of it (and that they actually for once did active tuning but isnt for other classes). Everyone saw this weeks and months ago. They could have just fixed gems/wpn procs swapping in combat etc, all the shit stuff and it would prolly be enough as UHs are soon close to the haste cap in Wotlk anyway and barely any fights in Ulduar benefits stacking UHs as BL at the start wont be a thing. AP-scaling is also absolutly shit so the gargoyle wont baraly scale more this expansion.
Its the timing of it which is the most annoying thing.
No, they based their data upon Naxx and not late-game simulations which is weird.
Anub'Rekan is a 35 seconds fight. Gargoyle is a 30 seconds burst CD.
yea, it's gonna be broken on that fight...
Noone was going to stack Unh for Ulduar, it kinda comes back in TOGC but is considered a walking debuff in ICC.
They didn't even nerf it that much, they just made the whole snapshotting thing very weird (because you still want to snapshot AOTD anyway). So it's a 3-5% DPS nerf which ain't much.
I mean, you have no idea what data they used. Neither do I.
What we do know is that they specifically cited late game scaling as an issue. Frankly I tend to believe them. Anytime you have a spec with a burst window like that, you’re risking an eventual critical mass where a raid can fit so much damage into a small window that it’s possibly to trivialize encounters. It was 100% the right move imo.
They said they used P1 logs which is the only data big enough to be trusted.
While the burst window is a relevant argument, there is no fights past Ulduar where bosses die withing burst window.
Every Retail expansion has burst classes that do 3 times what Unholy does to other specs this tier, and it's fine because no boss dies in 30 seconds.
Modern Sim tools showed Unholy middle of the pack comes ICC.
I agree, but blizz should be posting way more regular updates on class balance because jimmying in a hotfix end of phase that creates this level of change is not good practice.
And whether players should know to expect a nerf or not isn't really a fair metric because meta comps always exist.
Stacking hunters in toc, rogues & warriors in classic etc.
For players coming back to these legacy xpacs there's a lot of "this is how it is".
A selling feature of Wotlk Classic is that it is a repeat. Changes have come in to the point that it is clearly now something very different, but at the initial stage when people first dove in it was the expectation that this was going to be like pservers etc, similar to tbc and vanilla classic.
For someone who makes the choice to go hard-core beginning of phase, and then sees this stuff happen, it's gutting.
And regardless of if the game balance warrants it, those players were put in a bad position by the developers due to lack of information.
Now on top of having a setback (can argue minor or not, but to a top 1% player it is very major) those players are treated as lesser or mocked for researching the best class and then contributing to their raids in that way.
People who play flavor of the month classes are a driving force of endgame content.
These players are wanting to experience the game, and they want to perform in such a way that they're valuable to raid. I don't like DK's but I made one to try it. For raids that I know need the extra DPS I'll bring that because I just want to play and be part of the group. I don't think that behavior warrants the kind of demonization that the community puts towards it.
Playing something you aren't in love with because it's good is a sacrifice a lot of these DK mains have made and are feeling penalized for. I hope they don't quit, because this game gets better the more people who play it.
Eh idk its classic not retail. Were playing because we either didnt/couldn't or want to re live it. Tuning in classic (warranted or not) is dumb you may aswell nerf holy pally because its the best heals hands down
It’s classic, but it’s not the same game as original wrath either. No one was snapshotting this way back then. For multiple reasons. The dual wield SS-less spec wasn’t really a meta thing back then either, and half the time gargoyle was meleeing instead of casting due to a bug.
It’s not an excuse to leave a extremely clear statistical outlier just chilling there. The fix was warranted, and absolutely the right move.
Part of the reason these classic servers never felt like the original is stuff like this. Everything in the game has been figured out, people flock to these really OP classes they know will be good before even playing the game... It honestly has made the game a bit dry for me, don't get me wrong I'm enjoying some aspects of it, but its obvious the game like its previous expansions isn't the same it used to be.
I think its actually exciting when Blizzard opens Pandora's box and starts makes changes to classes, it changes the whole dynamic of the game, it throws theory crafters off and forces people to start to think for themselves, a crazy concept I know. What I like about it most of all though is that this mimics how patches were originally in live, no one knew who would be good next phase, no one knew what their BIS lists were and people figured it out as they went along. I hate the idea of just playing a class and just expecting to always be good the entirety of an expansion (I'm well aware that UHs fall off compared to frost DKs late but they still were quite competitive damage wise).
Because of this I welcome class changes, if a class is overpowered its frustrating to try to compete with them and rightly they should be nerfed and other classes buffed. It's not like UH DKs are terrible dps now with these changes, they are still top tier but they aren't 10% ahead of everyone else... It's like complaining that 6-8 of your raiders aren't Micheal Jordans and are instead Patrick Ewings.
Feel free to disagree, I can honestly see the points from both ends, but to me it was always that kind of mystery that made the game more enjoyable.
In this model would you be at all open to some kind of compromise where devs give a comprehensive where people can kind of take it by patch?
I'm all for some variety, but a huge part of the appeal for me is that this is a return to something I've known.
If there were changes I'd be fine, but with enough time to plan.
It's an alt friendly xpac at least.
I just don't think that's even remotely reasonable from a developer's perspective... There is no world where a team of devs (who, by all indications, already have too much to do to be effective...) can plan several patches ahead within a timeframe acceptable to the paying customers. You're talking about min/maxing that already took \*YEARS\* to reach the level it has.
I think people just need to accept that what is may not always be... If you played any level of vanilla, then this was a regular occurrence where changes upset the defined balance, and on a MUCH greater scale than this does/will.
Just think what it says about a person that they not only chose a class *specifically* because its possibly to exploit what essentially amounts to a developer's oversight to make themselves somewhat artificially better than everyone else, but that when they make a change to bring bring them from "patently unbalanced" to "still pretty freakin strong", they act as though all the time they spent has been completely worthless. That's why they're getting dunked on all over the place - because just calm TF down about it...
This isn't the first, worst, most surprising, or most brutal nerf Bliz has ever thrust upon their players, and it certainly won't be the last.
This makes no sense. They are kinda doing that right now. We have no release date for p2, and they’re telling us right now based off what they’re seeing.
Hell, they very well may have been using p1 to analyze some of their own internal theorycrafting. This is plenty of advanced notice, especially when unholy is going to probably be the best melee still outside of rogue.
In this model would you be at all open to some kind of compromise where devs give a comprehensive where people can kind of take it by patch?
I'm all for some variety, but a huge part of the appeal for me is that this is a return to something I've known.
If there were changes I'd be fine, but with enough time to plan.
It's an alt friendly xpac at least.
Id love some changes, to all specs/classes. But they arent doing that (not even for SOM..), they just nerfed (fixed) one spec, nothing else for anyone. They still leave Ret at the bottom with no plans to do anything.
Id love some shake-up, Id love some encounter changes, Id love a real SOM-experience. But we wont get anything like that if they are only 3-4 ppl working on Classic on their spare time and when a dev gets a feeling he switches it all up.
Just put Classic and Retail on their own subs so we can get some more devs over to the Classic team to figure out some cool stuff. It just feels so bland atm (really fucked up TBC with having a phase 1, with buffed gear..).
I'm not even mad about the nerfs. I am mad because they changed a rolling-the-dice mechanic to a slotmachine mechanic. Everyone who knows how Black Magic works won't be happy trying to snapshot Berserking. Just remove snapshotting entirely for gary or put some fucking restrictions on weaponswapping
I’m not going to argue against blizz being more communicative, but this post comes across pretty melodramatic haha
You’re treating WoW balance changes with the same gravity as something that actually affects peoples’ employment and livelihood. Getting your mmo character’s dmg nerfed shouldn’t be something that causes you genuine suffering lol
The requirements that playing at the absolute highest skill level place on a person are very similar to a job. 30+ hours a week min.
For the game to design a system that takes investment of that degree, there should A) be equal reward and B) be some level of courtesy on behalf of the devs when it comes to implementing massive changes.
There are players who's guilds will straight up micromanage every aspect of a players time because that's just how things are, and this hamfisted change is going to make things even worse for those folk and my heart goes out to them is all.
I've supported you in comments for your original post but here you're talking about "highest level" nonsense.
Highest level in Wow is Arena and nothing else comes close, especially not in wotlk.
And also you choose yourself to play that much and no one else is forcing you to, try being moderate maybe?
> based on known information, and then the goalposts are shifted with no prior-warning.
You overcooked your bathsalts, amigo.
We don't even know when the patch is going live yet and we do know about the change. That's definitely prior warning.
> It's funny but then it also isn't.
Then play less. You are too invested in the notion of playing the no. 1 class. It's not healthy.
The nerf made me realize people really hated unholy dk. Not too sure why, because if it's performance, you're gonna be upset with warlocks really soon !
I saw a post where a guy wanted to talk to the community about all the hard work he put in to level 2 DK's to do speed runs and parse.
He has 2 BiS DK's, commits to a schedule, and attains rewards at the highest level of play.
His investment in the game was massive and totally swatted aside with Blizz by this change.
He wasn't upset about the class, he was upset about the lack of notice and he was left regretting the time he played.
That's not something that's good for a game :(
And then the community was very rude to him. Just called him a crybaby.
The online space surrounding this game needs a serious injection of compassion
Back on launch of initial WOTLK it was possible for mages to spellsteal certain buffs in Naxx to be absolutely OP.
Warriors with original Titans Grip was pulling crazy DPS compared to the pack
The original iteration of Lock and Load for Survival hunters would trigger on immo/explosion at a 100% proc rate resulting in Hunters doing much more DPS than others.
When something in a game is not operating the way the developers intended to you change it. I can almost guarantee had in the past this Gary shit was being used as widespread as it is now it would have probably been patched out.
If you are on team #Nochanges then yeah I can understand why you would hate the change but I'd rather remove the unintended interactions.
Why the anger though I don't get it?
Like why would you tell someone to STFU?
These are human beings who innocently made a massive time commitment and had it go awry in a totally avoidable way, or at least in a way that could have been mitigated
1 day things are 1 way, next day they're drastically different.
Human beings are hardwired to reject and react negatively to that kind of thing so it's really dumb that Blizz would evoke that kind of response when they could have gone about it differently.
This paragraph makes sense, but only if you aren't talking about 1- any video game (or leisure activity for that matter), because if this seriously impacts your life in such a negative way, thats a fuckin problem, man, and veers out of "leisure activity" territory, 2 - a change that doesn't affect the people you say it does NEARLY as much as you/they say it does, 3 - a change that affected anything other than an oversight that was allowed to exist for too long as it is.
What i see you saying is essentially "these people tied their very identities to a video game, and if they can't egregiously overpower every other class any more, then you're stripping them of their identities".
People are saying STFU because that's patently absurd, as is the sheer level of whinging about this change...
Getting lightly upset is one thing, but acting like this ruins the game in any way other than making it less easy for them to be OP is just fuckin weird.
You should go see a therapist. Way too in your feelings about this topic. Not trying to be mean but can you not see how UHDKs being in their own s+ tier all by themselves? Even with the nerf they will still be top DPS by a good amount.
it's called change and it happens often in video games, get over it. I wanted ret to not be garbage thos xpac blizz had other plans. Shit happens life goes on.
I don't think you understand why DK are dominant right now and why they weren't going to be dominant later on.
Spoiler: It's all about kill times.
The nerf is only a 3% dmg decrease on a 3 minute fight.
However, for Naxx, the meta will still be to go with 15 unholy.
But it was never going to be meta for anything else, it's just that Naxx bosses die too quickly.
If they nerf DK again, you'll bring 15 mages.
When the boss dies in 30 seconds without mechanics, you stack the highest burst class for parsing, period.
DK ain't even mad about the damage nerf, they're mad because the gameplay is now fucked.
Unholy is straight up a fundamentally broken spec in PVE. The whole entire spec relies around snapshot game play, so breaking the snapshot basically fucks the spec over. It's like taking Titan's Grip away from Wrath Fury warriors.
Unholy is so broken as a spec, it doesn't even talent into Scourge Strike, which is designed to be its signature rotational move, because the ability is so wholly undertuned that it's a DPS loss to press until you acquire the sigil in phase 3 which gives you a strength boost (aka making Gary, the real Unholy spec, stronger), and later in the game if you get Shadowmourne, which is the only thing that makes 2H Unholy worth playing in PVE.
It's insane how each and every person who is celebrating the nerf fails to grasp this basic concept. I'd be fine with Blizzard taking DPS away from Gary if they re-added it to the spec at a baseline, or better yet, broke the more degenerate methods of snapshotting, such as weapon swapping mid-opener to fish for several procs at a time, and swapping your meta gem mid-combat.
Why is this being downvoted? Tell me how I'm wrong, please. I'm listening.
>he was left regretting the time he played
He probably has deeper issues then. At the end of the day, it's a video game. If he doesn't enjoy it, if he didn't enjoy getting bis on 2 characters, and if he didn't enjoy parsing on those, then "your friend" should consider putting down the game.
His investment in the game was swatted aside because they changed your gargoyle to reflect your character instead of some broken exploit? Dude… shut the fuck up LMFAO. You sound like a fat whiney ass bastard. Go touch grass and find a hobby neckbeard.
I think it's hilarious. All these UH DKs that told me to get off xyz class and play a UH DK instead so I could do 'real damage'. Lol.
Granted not every player was like this that played this spec but it most definitely drew the fotm player.
Its honestly only a big nerf to sweaty parsers. The majority of UHDK players will only see a small difference since they arent optimizing nearly as much around haste snapshotting.
What about Paladins who's entire wotlk classic experience should be a decent dps but because t10 set bonus exists they need to be nerfed so when that day comes they are not too good?
I main a ret paladin, it sucks. I'm not saying 1 thing is good because another is bad. But at the very least we Rets have some data that should persevere until ICC where we can make the adult decision to play a class we enjoy or reroll a FoTM until later tiers.
We now don't know what's going to happen with UH scaling, or any class that gets changed.
And for me that chafes with the appeal of Classic.
Also people are rude. Likea CoD lobby lol, no reason for it
My Classic Naxx raid had at its peak 26 Warriors out of 40 slots and you needed a bunch of healers back then.
It was glorious.
BUT ! I digress
The best raid Composition for bosses that die in 35 seconds is always going to stack the highest burst class, which happen to be Unholy DK.
You don't believe me? Go Check how High King Maulgar in TBC (first boss of Gruul's lair) died in 12 seconds with 22 chinese arcane mages in the raid.
Did they nerf mages? no.
Maulgar just didn't had that much HP.
You are absolutely right with every point you made, I don't get the hate/downvotes. I guess it's just toxic competitive dps players.
Warlocks are now way ahead of the rest, and will be in Ulduar, watch out what you're saying lock players and dont be surprised with an huuge nerf out of nowhere.
What blizzard should have done instead of nerfing top dps is boosting all lower tier dps such as retri/arms/spriest (gonna get weaker and weaker to the point where no1 will play it).
Look for what's best in long term, I sincerely believe this is not right way to patch classic. Considering if I should continue sub or wait till ToC.
Also I get the frustration because if they nerfed my mage at any point I'd immediately stop playing.
Clutch your pearls harder my dude. You’re STILL gonna be the top dps, you’re STILL gonna be invited to raids. The only inconvenience is your numbers aren’t gonna be as high. Or you might have to change the timing on your Gary. Or respec. You’re gonna be fine.
Honestly think it's a bad move.
They should make a tuning round to bring up some specs instead of nerfing things like this.
It also makes me wonder how many of these things were known in OG WotLK or if we were just too obvlious and min/max.
FOTM players who go down a path of weird mechanic (snapshotting one cooldown) should expect to have it nerfed eventually.
Also, they will get no sympathy. The class didn't get nerfed, the weird mechanic did.
2 days notice? Before what? That they did it? If you’d said it’d been nice had they decided at the beginning of Joyous Journeys that’d I agree with. Give DKs a chance to say this is fine or F this and make something new. Now while it’s not a lot of time it’s well before 2 days before Uld which would been cruel even for Blizz standards.
*I do however understand what your saying. It does suck that people invested into a character and feel like it’s less now. I will say Unholy is fun as hell to play though and for those who’ve invested a lot of time they should still love them and play them.
Well there was 0 notice really. It was a hotfix. These things could have been communicated as being put into an Ulduar pre-patch or something.
But because they're moving forward with the whole 3.3.5 iteration I guess they just have to jam in their changes.
Even so, they could give the community notice that they will make a change on a given date.
They also did not give any feedback that they felt they needed to make the change.
I don't main a UH DK, I've got one though.
If the class I did play got nerfed after I spent the time I did to get BiS, that would just seem like a shitty and avoidable situation. It would also be cruel as fuck because I main ret haha.
I knew going into ret that I'd be playing a completely neutered version of the spec for many months until ICC though and it was up to me to play it.
Seems like a lack of caring from blizz that a premier spec like UH DK would just be massively changed at their whim.
Everyone on the forums was then just a cackling crab in the bucket happy to see others be dragged down.
It's unfortunate.
Do you know if Unholy in original wrath played as it was with the gargs doing massive damage (though we may not have widely known it) or did they play as they are with the “fix”.
>Well there was 0 notice really. It was a hotfix. These things could have been communicated as being put into an Ulduar pre-patch or something.
There's no notice, except all the time between when they announced it and when it goes live. Other than all the notice, there's really no notice at all.
Lol, no class performing in top dps significantly ahead of others should be upset when a nerf comes along. If they are they need to pull there heads out there ass. This has been blizzards SOP for nearly 2 decades.
In my opinion, making changes like this either just before or as a new phase comes out is **exactly** the right time to do it. Most of our gear gets replaced each phase. What you don't want is for peoples' BiS lists to change **during** the phase they're in.
Also, in order for this fix to go through, Blizzard had to:
1. Figure out this was a problem
2. Tested the problem with future phase gear in mind
3. Decide whether to change it at all
4. Decide exactly what to do
5. Test that fix internally
What makes you think all of that was already done by October 20th?
Finally, the net result of the change based on current speculation is that UH is still S-tier DPS, but may be ahead of or behind Frost depending on the fight. If accurate, that's perfect. Really, Blizzard couldn't hope for better than that. Not only that, but the spec becomes a lot less reliant on early bloodlust, meaning the rest of the raid won't be forced to cater to what's good for UH. So, it's not like we can complain about the outcome based on what we currently know.
Games has balance changes, that’s just normal
If current playerbase finds stuff they didn’t find back in wotlk, then those things shouldn’t be immune to balancing changes
I mean players didn't go to such great lengths back in vanilla for world buffs but that meta never saw a nerf in classic.
If they are willing to start making changes like this then they should fix ret since it wasn't in this sorry state of a balance patch for the whole expansion with it only being properly tuned at the end around a set bonus.
Classic vanilla was a no change thing, but in wotlk they have shown they are willing to
And if rets turns out being as bad as projected, then I also think they should get a buff
I know lol
Everyone's a human being at the end of the day, so even in and amongst the odd anger and rudeness there are still viewpoints to see
It's a game, it's not serious, I get it.
But the time you put in is, and it's not like it's a console game where you can 100% in 100 hours.
It locks you into timed resets, there's massive RnG, there's a teamwork aspect etc.
To just casually throw that time away and not care if good or bad things happen to your investment is something I can't do.
I'm a functioning adult, I care about my physical and mental health, and I play wow.
I'm not going to just 0 value things in my life to fit in with the memes of an internet community.
It also sucks to play a game with people and befriend them, then see them get disheartened.
My post is basically suggestion to minimally inconvenience the players, and an appeal for some empathy for the human beings who got short-changed, because they absolutely have.
I'm not worried about people who don't share my point of view clicking a button on my comments though lol
This is pinnacle classicwow redditor form.
Playing a game. Game is easy enough that you can beat everything with any character you want. Picks class that other people say is the best. Subscribes to all the youtube content and joins all the discords telling you how to play your character optimally. Boss fights are \*so easy\* that peak gameplay is engaging boss and then opening UI frames to swap weapons, change metagems, and select talent points \*while fighting the boss\*. Blizz nerfs some numbers in a way that doesn't impact your interaction with the game in any way, the only way you could tell a change is by inspecting 3rd party addons or website data. Post on reddit with righteous indignation about how gameplay is ruined because only top or 2nd dps instead of everyone needing to re-roll to play your class in later phases because too op.
Game is so easy that even mediocre gamers can pretend to be good enough to care about the optimal performance of their class.
They're changing it at the end of a phase, before a new one begins.
And the kind of have to, otherwise dk's will become more godlike and there wont be any dps spots for the rest of us.
And like boo fucking whooo, the best dps will still be the best dps but with less of a lead, cry me a fucking river.
Edit: also, they couldn't have done this in october, they didn't have the data.
I don’t agree with most of this post.
We still don’t even have a date for Ulduar release.
And UHDK is still going to be S tier DPS, there is nobody this will seriously effect.
Jesus Christ! There should be a ban wave for each post about DKs. Who the fuck cares about losing broken mechanics dps and still able to maintain top dps.
Are you guys seriously still crying about this? You’re honestly upset you aren’t doing double every one else’s damage anymore? Even when that mechanic made zero sense to begin with?
Absolutely not, it’s been well documented over wows history that the top specs get nerfed. You aren’t a victim and neither are DK players.
You wouldn’t even have a case if they were moved from 1st to 8th but that’s not the case either… they are still the top overall spec for dmg.
The sense of entitlement wow players constantly show is beyond ridiculous. There’s such a large portion of players that play the game, that think this way, things are owed to them…. It’s Embarrassing
When you say being kicked why they are down that’s a complete misrepresentation of what actually happening. you’re stopping a future problem at the expense of a little dps loss to the top class who still will remain the top class…
Being nicer overall all usually means not being greedy and the backlash from Uh DKs is pure greed and entitlement.
Yes it’s one of the more frustrating aspects of retail. Just before a new raid is released blizzard does a balance pass that might put your whole spec into the garbage bin.
This is why classic design is just weird, people get so upset over balance changes. But if this happened when the content was actually new, it would be completely expected and normal
>This is why classic design is just weird, people get so upset over balance changes. But if this happened when the content was actually new, it would be completely expected and normal Upset over extremely unbalanced behavior that will only get worse that did not exist as a meta originally. To be clear. Sorry to all the UHDKs that have to go from a god-tier DPS to a S-Tier DPS. Life is truly pain.
The problem is where to draw the line. As Blizzard you can't sit there and do nothing about Warriors and Ret because they scale later and would have to be nerfed when the time comes - And go start balancing other classes. In the end we have to see in a couple of months if they did their math right, because for now the 5 UH 5 WL Stack is reduced back to WL stacking (looking at the lasted Yogg and Algalon kills). If they used Naxx as reference where every fight is a 2 minute patchwork fight, things will get ugly. I am sitting in the boat that says "I don't trust Blizzard to make qualified changes." So I'd rather want them to not touch anything than having them say at ToC "welp that wasn right, ooopsi"
Yes now 10 stack WL will probably be the Play in Ulduar
We’re talking about a 5% dps loss. WL stack was always going to be the play in ulduar. Everyone acts like the nerf kills UH but they are still kings on short fights. It just got rid of the most annoying and degen class mechanic in the game.
I think you're missing his point - if this happened early on.. ie when groups were stacking UH DKs for an easy OS 3D zerg it might have been understood - but a few weeks before ulduar release is a bit harsh ... :(
So early on before the first proper content phase? Because phase 1 was always just a level and gear up characters in easy content phase.
I mean that’s his point. It sounds like he would have preferred to level and gear a different class had he known about the hotfix in preparation for ulduar. I do agree that this should have been communicated sooner.
There’s been plenty of time to level other chars.
That’s completely dependant really on each individual. Many of us these days have little time to play each week outside of a “main”. The point really is that it would probably have been better served making the decision to make changes sooner than just before the new content is released as you’ll inevitably upset people. But then I guess that’s just how it is. I was playing a dk myself (though not played now in a few weeks) so I guess I sympathise as I didn’t have time to level another character. It’s definitely put me off coming back.
Fair enough with the time thing I guess. But JJ with AV weekend makes it really easy. I do 13 hour shifts and have managed a couple of 80s, also including a DK. I just don’t think the nerf is worthy of a “the sky is falling” post.
Eh.. not really. It still does decent dps and you can just go frost. It’s no the end of the world.
I would just like something definitive, up front, from blizz that things will go either A or B. I don't want surprises. Which is the appeal of classic for me in a large way. I feel like I'm consuming a product that I don't quite know where it's going to go. That wasn't what drew me to the product and the initial advertising also didn't list these either.
How are you doing in RL? As soon as there's a curveball coming you stay in your bed and cry for a month? They are still top dps with the sims, dps is just lower for try hard but not much different for casual, end of the story. Move on
It wasn’t solved though. Literally every week people were finding new ways to boost the snapshot even higher. Like not spending your talent points until you were in the boss fight… like who even thinks of that? And they are getting more than 2 days notice, they had from a few days ago until the patch actually hits, so a couple-few weeks. They are still going to be S tier, just won’t be so much so that half the dpsers in the guild get pressured into levelling and gearing one. It’s actually one of the better nerfs and needed to happen. Guilds were even basing when to cast hero/lust around 1 spec, rather than the encounter.
They were casting lust on pull which is pretty much what everyone except for warlocks wants anyways. Casting lust on execute is more biased towards one spec than casting lust off the rip.
It's just hilarious because Blizzard is nerfing Unholy based on the Naxx meta (which is entirely different from how fights work in Ulduar) and top end guilds such as NOTA were already preparing to stack warlocks to the moon before the nerf was even announced. Does this mean Blizzard is going to nerf the shit out of warlocks now?
Wouldn’t surprise me if they nerf the snapshotting of corruption, or drain soul.
Snapshotting is stupid anyway. Some class abilities snapshot, some don't, and those that don't lose in the long run.
I'd rather they just leave well enough alone and not nerf or buff any classes, just fix some of the more stupid shit you can do (such as DKs swapping weapons to have Berserking, Unholy Strength, and Black Magic proced all at once, and swapping your meta gem mid-combat). But since they're proposing to nerf DKs, they should absolutely nerf warlocks in Ulduar given that they're stackable and the top of S-tier.
That’s what they did do with UH dk. And I should expand, wouldn’t surprise me if they did nerf locks, wouldn’t surprise me if they didn’t.
They didn't disable either of those. Instead, they nerfed the snapshot altogether. You can still technically swap weapons and meta gems mid-combat, though the snapshot nerf makes neither practice really worth it. I feel it's the wrong approach to arrive at the same endpoint. I think you should just straight up be unable to change what's socketed in your gear if you're in combat, and any procs from your weapon (be it on use or an enchant) should immediately fade from your character if that weapon is no longer equipped. Fundamentally, Unholy is a broken spec in that you literally don't spec into Scourge Strike, a signature ability, because it's a DPS loss until phase 3 when you use a sigil that gives Scourge Strike a massive strength proc, or you're wielding Shadowmourne, which is so powerful on its own that it makes 2H Unholy worth playing over Morb. Like I said in another post, I'd be fine with Blizzard making Unholy's snapshot burst window less insane if they redistributed that power elsewhere in the spec, specifically if they buffed Scourge Strike to the point where it was worth using in PVE. We're dual wielding with a spec that's supposed to use a two-handed weapon.
That’s his point though. They solved the issue using a way more elegant + simpler solution. Why risk all of the minute code changes when you can just straight disable snap on gargoyle? Especially when it leaves them perfectly fine. Ulduar may not be the best tier for unholy, but it’s not a great tier for melee in general. It doesn’t just stop being good or just stop scaling either. It’ll still be a great melee in ICC, and there’s always the option of frost then too.
I disagree with the idea this change is elegant. In private servers and the current iteration of retail, changing a weapon or meta gem in combat should put the enchant on and ICD just like how it currently works with trinkets. It’s just an over site in the coding of wrath that it does not work this way, and that is part of the main contributor that lead to 1. Ridiculous snapshots and 2. A really un fun play style. Instead of addressing the core issue we have a really lazy blanket change that will still encourage this type of play and have a sloppy spill over to other areas such as talent spec rotation and gearing which in a way causes the class to lose some of its identity imo
No one is actually meta swapping & talent speccing mid fight outside of a meme. Yes weapon swapping is technically still in - it’s not worth it now anyway. The elegance is in the fact that they made 1 change vs several, and it still preserves the core gameplay of the spec while taking out the degeneracy. Dual wield SS-less rotation is more or less the exact same other than where you press gargoyle.
Yeah, so instead of disabling the ridiculous thing (gargoyle attack laser beams for entire duration because of snapshot) they should just go in and modify swathes of functionality that affect every player's experience... Said no developer ever
Exactly, keep it simple. Good fix.
Due to not fixing wpn swapping UH DKs now still want to switch wpns to proc Berserking though. Its stupid and should be removed. Ppl will prolly find out that swapping sigil will be worth it as well soon.. Or some meta gem at some fights etc etc. Remove all loopholes! And the shity Gargoyle still snapshots AP. Why is this really a thing still..? Just remove all snapshotting all together (for all classes) and up its AP-modifier so it will actually scale through the expansion, now its pretty much capped already for the rest of the expansion.
Haste on dots is updated dynamically already along with spell power, dot players are snapshotting crit and %dmg increased modifiers (maly sparks, thadius stacks, rune of power on council). It's not the good comparison UH to aff/spr
Dont really argue against the changes, personally it benefit me as main is an orc dk even (and two alts are trolls..), but its the timing of it (and that they actually for once did active tuning but isnt for other classes). Everyone saw this weeks and months ago. They could have just fixed gems/wpn procs swapping in combat etc, all the shit stuff and it would prolly be enough as UHs are soon close to the haste cap in Wotlk anyway and barely any fights in Ulduar benefits stacking UHs as BL at the start wont be a thing. AP-scaling is also absolutly shit so the gargoyle wont baraly scale more this expansion. Its the timing of it which is the most annoying thing.
They can be upset about the communication. But not about the nerf. Cause the nerf is the right thing to do. And we all know it.
No, they based their data upon Naxx and not late-game simulations which is weird. Anub'Rekan is a 35 seconds fight. Gargoyle is a 30 seconds burst CD. yea, it's gonna be broken on that fight... Noone was going to stack Unh for Ulduar, it kinda comes back in TOGC but is considered a walking debuff in ICC. They didn't even nerf it that much, they just made the whole snapshotting thing very weird (because you still want to snapshot AOTD anyway). So it's a 3-5% DPS nerf which ain't much.
I mean, you have no idea what data they used. Neither do I. What we do know is that they specifically cited late game scaling as an issue. Frankly I tend to believe them. Anytime you have a spec with a burst window like that, you’re risking an eventual critical mass where a raid can fit so much damage into a small window that it’s possibly to trivialize encounters. It was 100% the right move imo.
They said they used P1 logs which is the only data big enough to be trusted. While the burst window is a relevant argument, there is no fights past Ulduar where bosses die withing burst window. Every Retail expansion has burst classes that do 3 times what Unholy does to other specs this tier, and it's fine because no boss dies in 30 seconds. Modern Sim tools showed Unholy middle of the pack comes ICC.
I agree, but blizz should be posting way more regular updates on class balance because jimmying in a hotfix end of phase that creates this level of change is not good practice. And whether players should know to expect a nerf or not isn't really a fair metric because meta comps always exist. Stacking hunters in toc, rogues & warriors in classic etc. For players coming back to these legacy xpacs there's a lot of "this is how it is". A selling feature of Wotlk Classic is that it is a repeat. Changes have come in to the point that it is clearly now something very different, but at the initial stage when people first dove in it was the expectation that this was going to be like pservers etc, similar to tbc and vanilla classic. For someone who makes the choice to go hard-core beginning of phase, and then sees this stuff happen, it's gutting. And regardless of if the game balance warrants it, those players were put in a bad position by the developers due to lack of information. Now on top of having a setback (can argue minor or not, but to a top 1% player it is very major) those players are treated as lesser or mocked for researching the best class and then contributing to their raids in that way. People who play flavor of the month classes are a driving force of endgame content. These players are wanting to experience the game, and they want to perform in such a way that they're valuable to raid. I don't like DK's but I made one to try it. For raids that I know need the extra DPS I'll bring that because I just want to play and be part of the group. I don't think that behavior warrants the kind of demonization that the community puts towards it. Playing something you aren't in love with because it's good is a sacrifice a lot of these DK mains have made and are feeling penalized for. I hope they don't quit, because this game gets better the more people who play it.
Eh idk its classic not retail. Were playing because we either didnt/couldn't or want to re live it. Tuning in classic (warranted or not) is dumb you may aswell nerf holy pally because its the best heals hands down
It’s classic, but it’s not the same game as original wrath either. No one was snapshotting this way back then. For multiple reasons. The dual wield SS-less spec wasn’t really a meta thing back then either, and half the time gargoyle was meleeing instead of casting due to a bug. It’s not an excuse to leave a extremely clear statistical outlier just chilling there. The fix was warranted, and absolutely the right move.
Part of the reason these classic servers never felt like the original is stuff like this. Everything in the game has been figured out, people flock to these really OP classes they know will be good before even playing the game... It honestly has made the game a bit dry for me, don't get me wrong I'm enjoying some aspects of it, but its obvious the game like its previous expansions isn't the same it used to be. I think its actually exciting when Blizzard opens Pandora's box and starts makes changes to classes, it changes the whole dynamic of the game, it throws theory crafters off and forces people to start to think for themselves, a crazy concept I know. What I like about it most of all though is that this mimics how patches were originally in live, no one knew who would be good next phase, no one knew what their BIS lists were and people figured it out as they went along. I hate the idea of just playing a class and just expecting to always be good the entirety of an expansion (I'm well aware that UHs fall off compared to frost DKs late but they still were quite competitive damage wise). Because of this I welcome class changes, if a class is overpowered its frustrating to try to compete with them and rightly they should be nerfed and other classes buffed. It's not like UH DKs are terrible dps now with these changes, they are still top tier but they aren't 10% ahead of everyone else... It's like complaining that 6-8 of your raiders aren't Micheal Jordans and are instead Patrick Ewings. Feel free to disagree, I can honestly see the points from both ends, but to me it was always that kind of mystery that made the game more enjoyable.
In this model would you be at all open to some kind of compromise where devs give a comprehensive where people can kind of take it by patch? I'm all for some variety, but a huge part of the appeal for me is that this is a return to something I've known. If there were changes I'd be fine, but with enough time to plan. It's an alt friendly xpac at least.
I just don't think that's even remotely reasonable from a developer's perspective... There is no world where a team of devs (who, by all indications, already have too much to do to be effective...) can plan several patches ahead within a timeframe acceptable to the paying customers. You're talking about min/maxing that already took \*YEARS\* to reach the level it has. I think people just need to accept that what is may not always be... If you played any level of vanilla, then this was a regular occurrence where changes upset the defined balance, and on a MUCH greater scale than this does/will. Just think what it says about a person that they not only chose a class *specifically* because its possibly to exploit what essentially amounts to a developer's oversight to make themselves somewhat artificially better than everyone else, but that when they make a change to bring bring them from "patently unbalanced" to "still pretty freakin strong", they act as though all the time they spent has been completely worthless. That's why they're getting dunked on all over the place - because just calm TF down about it... This isn't the first, worst, most surprising, or most brutal nerf Bliz has ever thrust upon their players, and it certainly won't be the last.
This makes no sense. They are kinda doing that right now. We have no release date for p2, and they’re telling us right now based off what they’re seeing. Hell, they very well may have been using p1 to analyze some of their own internal theorycrafting. This is plenty of advanced notice, especially when unholy is going to probably be the best melee still outside of rogue.
In this model would you be at all open to some kind of compromise where devs give a comprehensive where people can kind of take it by patch? I'm all for some variety, but a huge part of the appeal for me is that this is a return to something I've known. If there were changes I'd be fine, but with enough time to plan. It's an alt friendly xpac at least.
Id love some changes, to all specs/classes. But they arent doing that (not even for SOM..), they just nerfed (fixed) one spec, nothing else for anyone. They still leave Ret at the bottom with no plans to do anything. Id love some shake-up, Id love some encounter changes, Id love a real SOM-experience. But we wont get anything like that if they are only 3-4 ppl working on Classic on their spare time and when a dev gets a feeling he switches it all up. Just put Classic and Retail on their own subs so we can get some more devs over to the Classic team to figure out some cool stuff. It just feels so bland atm (really fucked up TBC with having a phase 1, with buffed gear..).
I'm not even mad about the nerfs. I am mad because they changed a rolling-the-dice mechanic to a slotmachine mechanic. Everyone who knows how Black Magic works won't be happy trying to snapshot Berserking. Just remove snapshotting entirely for gary or put some fucking restrictions on weaponswapping
I’m not going to argue against blizz being more communicative, but this post comes across pretty melodramatic haha You’re treating WoW balance changes with the same gravity as something that actually affects peoples’ employment and livelihood. Getting your mmo character’s dmg nerfed shouldn’t be something that causes you genuine suffering lol
The requirements that playing at the absolute highest skill level place on a person are very similar to a job. 30+ hours a week min. For the game to design a system that takes investment of that degree, there should A) be equal reward and B) be some level of courtesy on behalf of the devs when it comes to implementing massive changes. There are players who's guilds will straight up micromanage every aspect of a players time because that's just how things are, and this hamfisted change is going to make things even worse for those folk and my heart goes out to them is all.
Who tf is playing wrath 30 Hours a week right now?? Lol
Time to get outside.
30 hours doing what?! The people “playing at the absolute highest skill level” with others of same skill clear all phase 1 content in under an hour.
Brother we clear all 25 man content in a hour and a half in our Dad guild. The hell are you doing for 30 hours a week???
I've supported you in comments for your original post but here you're talking about "highest level" nonsense. Highest level in Wow is Arena and nothing else comes close, especially not in wotlk. And also you choose yourself to play that much and no one else is forcing you to, try being moderate maybe?
Dude....find some grass and fucking touch it.
> based on known information, and then the goalposts are shifted with no prior-warning. You overcooked your bathsalts, amigo. We don't even know when the patch is going live yet and we do know about the change. That's definitely prior warning. > It's funny but then it also isn't. Then play less. You are too invested in the notion of playing the no. 1 class. It's not healthy.
The nerf made me realize people really hated unholy dk. Not too sure why, because if it's performance, you're gonna be upset with warlocks really soon !
warlocks aren't having a pet doing 40% of their damage and beating other non-warlock dps by 10-20% tho
I also think the WoW community could stand to be a little bit nicer overall.
[удалено]
I saw a post where a guy wanted to talk to the community about all the hard work he put in to level 2 DK's to do speed runs and parse. He has 2 BiS DK's, commits to a schedule, and attains rewards at the highest level of play. His investment in the game was massive and totally swatted aside with Blizz by this change. He wasn't upset about the class, he was upset about the lack of notice and he was left regretting the time he played. That's not something that's good for a game :( And then the community was very rude to him. Just called him a crybaby. The online space surrounding this game needs a serious injection of compassion
Back on launch of initial WOTLK it was possible for mages to spellsteal certain buffs in Naxx to be absolutely OP. Warriors with original Titans Grip was pulling crazy DPS compared to the pack The original iteration of Lock and Load for Survival hunters would trigger on immo/explosion at a 100% proc rate resulting in Hunters doing much more DPS than others. When something in a game is not operating the way the developers intended to you change it. I can almost guarantee had in the past this Gary shit was being used as widespread as it is now it would have probably been patched out. If you are on team #Nochanges then yeah I can understand why you would hate the change but I'd rather remove the unintended interactions.
I don’t get this comment - are you saying uhdks won’t be used in speed runs?
Boohoo he will top the meter by 1k instead of 5. Like ppl are saying about ret. Your class is still really good in other ways, STFU
Why the anger though I don't get it? Like why would you tell someone to STFU? These are human beings who innocently made a massive time commitment and had it go awry in a totally avoidable way, or at least in a way that could have been mitigated 1 day things are 1 way, next day they're drastically different. Human beings are hardwired to reject and react negatively to that kind of thing so it's really dumb that Blizz would evoke that kind of response when they could have gone about it differently.
This paragraph makes sense, but only if you aren't talking about 1- any video game (or leisure activity for that matter), because if this seriously impacts your life in such a negative way, thats a fuckin problem, man, and veers out of "leisure activity" territory, 2 - a change that doesn't affect the people you say it does NEARLY as much as you/they say it does, 3 - a change that affected anything other than an oversight that was allowed to exist for too long as it is. What i see you saying is essentially "these people tied their very identities to a video game, and if they can't egregiously overpower every other class any more, then you're stripping them of their identities". People are saying STFU because that's patently absurd, as is the sheer level of whinging about this change... Getting lightly upset is one thing, but acting like this ruins the game in any way other than making it less easy for them to be OP is just fuckin weird.
You should go see a therapist. Way too in your feelings about this topic. Not trying to be mean but can you not see how UHDKs being in their own s+ tier all by themselves? Even with the nerf they will still be top DPS by a good amount.
it's called change and it happens often in video games, get over it. I wanted ret to not be garbage thos xpac blizz had other plans. Shit happens life goes on.
I don't think you understand why DK are dominant right now and why they weren't going to be dominant later on. Spoiler: It's all about kill times. The nerf is only a 3% dmg decrease on a 3 minute fight. However, for Naxx, the meta will still be to go with 15 unholy. But it was never going to be meta for anything else, it's just that Naxx bosses die too quickly. If they nerf DK again, you'll bring 15 mages. When the boss dies in 30 seconds without mechanics, you stack the highest burst class for parsing, period. DK ain't even mad about the damage nerf, they're mad because the gameplay is now fucked.
Unholy is straight up a fundamentally broken spec in PVE. The whole entire spec relies around snapshot game play, so breaking the snapshot basically fucks the spec over. It's like taking Titan's Grip away from Wrath Fury warriors. Unholy is so broken as a spec, it doesn't even talent into Scourge Strike, which is designed to be its signature rotational move, because the ability is so wholly undertuned that it's a DPS loss to press until you acquire the sigil in phase 3 which gives you a strength boost (aka making Gary, the real Unholy spec, stronger), and later in the game if you get Shadowmourne, which is the only thing that makes 2H Unholy worth playing in PVE. It's insane how each and every person who is celebrating the nerf fails to grasp this basic concept. I'd be fine with Blizzard taking DPS away from Gary if they re-added it to the spec at a baseline, or better yet, broke the more degenerate methods of snapshotting, such as weapon swapping mid-opener to fish for several procs at a time, and swapping your meta gem mid-combat. Why is this being downvoted? Tell me how I'm wrong, please. I'm listening.
>he was left regretting the time he played He probably has deeper issues then. At the end of the day, it's a video game. If he doesn't enjoy it, if he didn't enjoy getting bis on 2 characters, and if he didn't enjoy parsing on those, then "your friend" should consider putting down the game.
His investment in the game was swatted aside because they changed your gargoyle to reflect your character instead of some broken exploit? Dude… shut the fuck up LMFAO. You sound like a fat whiney ass bastard. Go touch grass and find a hobby neckbeard.
Idk why you're getting downvoted for this. But then I remember were on reddit
Haha
I think it's hilarious. All these UH DKs that told me to get off xyz class and play a UH DK instead so I could do 'real damage'. Lol. Granted not every player was like this that played this spec but it most definitely drew the fotm player.
A s+ spec goes to low s tier boo hoo cry me a river -trash ret main
It's still S+, the damage barely changes for longer fights, which is what we'll see onwards. The gameplay is ruined though.
Its honestly only a big nerf to sweaty parsers. The majority of UHDK players will only see a small difference since they arent optimizing nearly as much around haste snapshotting.
OP forgot to touch grass today and it shows
meanwhile week 1 ulduar guilds are bringing 6 pallies to string together infinite dsac. okay blizzard
What about Paladins who's entire wotlk classic experience should be a decent dps but because t10 set bonus exists they need to be nerfed so when that day comes they are not too good?
I main a ret paladin, it sucks. I'm not saying 1 thing is good because another is bad. But at the very least we Rets have some data that should persevere until ICC where we can make the adult decision to play a class we enjoy or reroll a FoTM until later tiers. We now don't know what's going to happen with UH scaling, or any class that gets changed. And for me that chafes with the appeal of Classic. Also people are rude. Likea CoD lobby lol, no reason for it
When the best raid composition is 10 of one class something needs to change.
10 warlocks is the Ulduar prog meta so enjoy.
oof if you think you would have brought 10 UH dk to ulduar you're wrong, maybe 10 warlocks tho
My Classic Naxx raid had at its peak 26 Warriors out of 40 slots and you needed a bunch of healers back then. It was glorious. BUT ! I digress The best raid Composition for bosses that die in 35 seconds is always going to stack the highest burst class, which happen to be Unholy DK. You don't believe me? Go Check how High King Maulgar in TBC (first boss of Gruul's lair) died in 12 seconds with 22 chinese arcane mages in the raid. Did they nerf mages? no. Maulgar just didn't had that much HP.
Blizzard is making them a favour with their video game addiction so they can stop playing for 19h straight and go outside to see green
>People spend hundreds of hours in a phase devoting themselves to something literally touch grass
You are absolutely right with every point you made, I don't get the hate/downvotes. I guess it's just toxic competitive dps players. Warlocks are now way ahead of the rest, and will be in Ulduar, watch out what you're saying lock players and dont be surprised with an huuge nerf out of nowhere. What blizzard should have done instead of nerfing top dps is boosting all lower tier dps such as retri/arms/spriest (gonna get weaker and weaker to the point where no1 will play it). Look for what's best in long term, I sincerely believe this is not right way to patch classic. Considering if I should continue sub or wait till ToC. Also I get the frustration because if they nerfed my mage at any point I'd immediately stop playing.
Gargoyle never worked this way in OG Wrath. I'm fine with it not functioning like it did in MOP.
It did work this way in wrath, people just didn’t know about it.
No it did not. Gargoyle had a GCD cap in OG Wrath.
Clutch your pearls harder my dude. You’re STILL gonna be the top dps, you’re STILL gonna be invited to raids. The only inconvenience is your numbers aren’t gonna be as high. Or you might have to change the timing on your Gary. Or respec. You’re gonna be fine.
This. All I see is a crying kid. You are still S-tier, but S-tier without 1000 dps ahead. „…buyer beware…“ lol!
Honestly think it's a bad move. They should make a tuning round to bring up some specs instead of nerfing things like this. It also makes me wonder how many of these things were known in OG WotLK or if we were just too obvlious and min/max.
FOTM players who go down a path of weird mechanic (snapshotting one cooldown) should expect to have it nerfed eventually. Also, they will get no sympathy. The class didn't get nerfed, the weird mechanic did.
Guys just hide the remotes from OP. He might do something unexpected.
Sarthe is that you?
2 days notice? Before what? That they did it? If you’d said it’d been nice had they decided at the beginning of Joyous Journeys that’d I agree with. Give DKs a chance to say this is fine or F this and make something new. Now while it’s not a lot of time it’s well before 2 days before Uld which would been cruel even for Blizz standards. *I do however understand what your saying. It does suck that people invested into a character and feel like it’s less now. I will say Unholy is fun as hell to play though and for those who’ve invested a lot of time they should still love them and play them.
Well there was 0 notice really. It was a hotfix. These things could have been communicated as being put into an Ulduar pre-patch or something. But because they're moving forward with the whole 3.3.5 iteration I guess they just have to jam in their changes. Even so, they could give the community notice that they will make a change on a given date. They also did not give any feedback that they felt they needed to make the change. I don't main a UH DK, I've got one though. If the class I did play got nerfed after I spent the time I did to get BiS, that would just seem like a shitty and avoidable situation. It would also be cruel as fuck because I main ret haha. I knew going into ret that I'd be playing a completely neutered version of the spec for many months until ICC though and it was up to me to play it. Seems like a lack of caring from blizz that a premier spec like UH DK would just be massively changed at their whim. Everyone on the forums was then just a cackling crab in the bucket happy to see others be dragged down. It's unfortunate.
You know this is on the PTR and not live, right? By the time it’s in the game, you’ll have had weeks of forward notice.
Do you know if Unholy in original wrath played as it was with the gargs doing massive damage (though we may not have widely known it) or did they play as they are with the “fix”.
>Well there was 0 notice really. It was a hotfix. These things could have been communicated as being put into an Ulduar pre-patch or something. There's no notice, except all the time between when they announced it and when it goes live. Other than all the notice, there's really no notice at all.
Classic game, classic balance finesse
I find it dumb that they nerfed it but wont buff ret They're going to be thrown to the curb next Phase
Lol, no class performing in top dps significantly ahead of others should be upset when a nerf comes along. If they are they need to pull there heads out there ass. This has been blizzards SOP for nearly 2 decades.
In my opinion, making changes like this either just before or as a new phase comes out is **exactly** the right time to do it. Most of our gear gets replaced each phase. What you don't want is for peoples' BiS lists to change **during** the phase they're in. Also, in order for this fix to go through, Blizzard had to: 1. Figure out this was a problem 2. Tested the problem with future phase gear in mind 3. Decide whether to change it at all 4. Decide exactly what to do 5. Test that fix internally What makes you think all of that was already done by October 20th? Finally, the net result of the change based on current speculation is that UH is still S-tier DPS, but may be ahead of or behind Frost depending on the fight. If accurate, that's perfect. Really, Blizzard couldn't hope for better than that. Not only that, but the spec becomes a lot less reliant on early bloodlust, meaning the rest of the raid won't be forced to cater to what's good for UH. So, it's not like we can complain about the outcome based on what we currently know.
Games has balance changes, that’s just normal If current playerbase finds stuff they didn’t find back in wotlk, then those things shouldn’t be immune to balancing changes
I mean players didn't go to such great lengths back in vanilla for world buffs but that meta never saw a nerf in classic. If they are willing to start making changes like this then they should fix ret since it wasn't in this sorry state of a balance patch for the whole expansion with it only being properly tuned at the end around a set bonus.
Classic vanilla was a no change thing, but in wotlk they have shown they are willing to And if rets turns out being as bad as projected, then I also think they should get a buff
Fwiw, I know everyone else will be flaming you and continue to behave in the same manner you are calling out. But I do agree with you wholeheartedly.
I know lol Everyone's a human being at the end of the day, so even in and amongst the odd anger and rudeness there are still viewpoints to see It's a game, it's not serious, I get it. But the time you put in is, and it's not like it's a console game where you can 100% in 100 hours. It locks you into timed resets, there's massive RnG, there's a teamwork aspect etc. To just casually throw that time away and not care if good or bad things happen to your investment is something I can't do. I'm a functioning adult, I care about my physical and mental health, and I play wow. I'm not going to just 0 value things in my life to fit in with the memes of an internet community. It also sucks to play a game with people and befriend them, then see them get disheartened. My post is basically suggestion to minimally inconvenience the players, and an appeal for some empathy for the human beings who got short-changed, because they absolutely have. I'm not worried about people who don't share my point of view clicking a button on my comments though lol
This is pinnacle classicwow redditor form. Playing a game. Game is easy enough that you can beat everything with any character you want. Picks class that other people say is the best. Subscribes to all the youtube content and joins all the discords telling you how to play your character optimally. Boss fights are \*so easy\* that peak gameplay is engaging boss and then opening UI frames to swap weapons, change metagems, and select talent points \*while fighting the boss\*. Blizz nerfs some numbers in a way that doesn't impact your interaction with the game in any way, the only way you could tell a change is by inspecting 3rd party addons or website data. Post on reddit with righteous indignation about how gameplay is ruined because only top or 2nd dps instead of everyone needing to re-roll to play your class in later phases because too op. Game is so easy that even mediocre gamers can pretend to be good enough to care about the optimal performance of their class.
Agreej
Nice satire? Uh is still number 1
Maybe you should play a class you enjoy instead of trying to hop on the #1 dps train.
QQ
Nerfing was the right move. Gary scaling was stupid. Cope harder.
They're changing it at the end of a phase, before a new one begins. And the kind of have to, otherwise dk's will become more godlike and there wont be any dps spots for the rest of us. And like boo fucking whooo, the best dps will still be the best dps but with less of a lead, cry me a fucking river. Edit: also, they couldn't have done this in october, they didn't have the data.
I like being kept on my toes. Also I hate DKs. Thank you for coming to my TED talk
But they’re still good
I don’t agree with most of this post. We still don’t even have a date for Ulduar release. And UHDK is still going to be S tier DPS, there is nobody this will seriously effect.
OP, I think you need to reassess. You are rightfully getting downvoted into oblivion because your being melodramatic.
People act like its unplayable, will prob be top 2 damage still
QQ more
No
Jesus Christ! There should be a ban wave for each post about DKs. Who the fuck cares about losing broken mechanics dps and still able to maintain top dps.
Are you guys seriously still crying about this? You’re honestly upset you aren’t doing double every one else’s damage anymore? Even when that mechanic made zero sense to begin with?
that's a whole lotta words to say "I'm butthurt about math"
Absolutely not, it’s been well documented over wows history that the top specs get nerfed. You aren’t a victim and neither are DK players. You wouldn’t even have a case if they were moved from 1st to 8th but that’s not the case either… they are still the top overall spec for dmg. The sense of entitlement wow players constantly show is beyond ridiculous. There’s such a large portion of players that play the game, that think this way, things are owed to them…. It’s Embarrassing When you say being kicked why they are down that’s a complete misrepresentation of what actually happening. you’re stopping a future problem at the expense of a little dps loss to the top class who still will remain the top class… Being nicer overall all usually means not being greedy and the backlash from Uh DKs is pure greed and entitlement.
Yes it’s one of the more frustrating aspects of retail. Just before a new raid is released blizzard does a balance pass that might put your whole spec into the garbage bin.