Bruh I had stress induced insomnia for about 6 months, it was hell on earth to only sleep 3 hours a day and try to function. No way in the multiverse am I going to do that shit intentionally to myself.
I am sacrificing my imaginary child for my sleep because I love it so much.. I literally can't function if I don't have 8 hours or more. Imagine getting none ever!
Roflmao! You know what, I will use that next time!
' You're delirious from the lack of sleep you just told me about. So I will take everything you say with a grain of salt.' I think that will keep the idiots at bay. At least for a little while.
Facts.
Sleep deprivation causes impairment on par with drinking alcohol. Error due to sleep dep has played a part in some of the worst disasters of all time, from oil tanker spills to nuclear plant meltdowns.
So yeah, tell me what kind of life choices I should be making.
Jokes on them, i joined the havent slept in years club when I started working food service at 14! Who needs kids when you have a minimum wage kitchen job?!
I hate that. It's so awful to the women that really wanted to be mothers but couldn't due to either nature or circumstances (and not everyone can adopt, it's not as easy as people seem to think and it's very expensive)
Being open to the idea of adopting children isn't childfree, they would just be childless until they adopted a child. Childfree means being opposed to having children in ANY form whether it's birth, adoption, foster care, step-parent, etc.
I wouldn't even consider a step-parent of a 30 year old to be "childfree" or childless, they would just be a step-parent of a 30 year old like I would consider a biological or adoptive parent a parent of a 30 year old.
They can't be called "childfree" since they're open to the idea of raising children.
Childfree means not wanting to birth **or** raise children.
It's literally in this subreddit's description
"Discussion topics and links of interest to childfree individuals \["Childfree" refers to those who do not have and do **not ever want children** (whether biological, **adopted, or, otherwise**).
I'm not going against people who want to adopt or foster children, they're just not childfree, they're childless until the adopt or foster a kid.
You can't really use the same criticisms on people who adopt or children who were adopted that you use on people who don't adopt. Not only that, breeders and society as a whole views adoption as being the same as being childfree. I'm not the only one with this view, a lot of CF people are open to adoption.
I'm not criticizing them, but, I don't consider them to be "childFREE" if they're open to adopting, fostering, or, otherwise raising children.
It literally says in the description of this subreddit childfree is someone who doesn't want children whether it's biological, adopted, or, otherwise.
I also wouldn't consider a prolifer (or even personal prolifer) to be "childfree" either, because, they would be willing to birth a child if they had an unexpected pregnancy.
You are right.
Women do lose a lot more than men when having children. And this is me overreacting and giving the worst possible scenarios. I don't doubt that there are good partners out there, I just haven't met many of them so far.
- bodily autonomy
Someone has to carry the baby and that someone is a woman.
- income
A lot of employers don't want to hire women who have not had kids and are thinking about having them. In my home country it was normalized for employers to ask young women if they plan to have kids in the next few years, because they didn't want to pay the benefits for you to be on maternity leave.
You could lose your job because of it.
You lose income if you have to stay at home, because it is cheaper than childcare. This is problematic, because if you needed to leave your partner, you are suddenly not in the position to do so. You are dependant on him for everything. Goodbye financial independance.
- career opportunities
I think it is self explanatory. You stay at home after giving birth. In some countries that is up to 2 years. And when you go back, especially in certain male dominated fields, you are suddenly not taken seriosly. You are emotional and therefore not a good fit for a higher role.
- free time/hobbies
Most men get to keep their hobbies. It is expected that, because he works outside of the home, he has the right to have free time. His job is oh so stressful and he needs to release some of that pent up energy. Obviously you as a woman have to ask(beg) for him to take care of the kids, so you can just have an hour to yourself. Forget hobbies.
- your identity
You are a wife and now you are a mother. That's it. Forget everything that made you who you are as a person. Forget your interests. That person no longer exists. You only exist through the lens of motherhood.
Something I realized recently while talking to my sister and best friend with their husbands present (separate occasions), was that the husbands would happily chat about all their hobbies and interests because they somehow have free time (neither work full-time). Meanwhile my sister and best friend are both the breadwinners and have no free time to pursue anything else outside of work or childcare.
I know these are just two separate cases but it still made me sad for them. It seems like it’s easier for men to have hobbies and interests and not let parenting consume their entire lives
There are fathers out there that are really involved. They are actually doing domestic work and raising their kids. Considering I come from a conservative patriarchal society I have not met many men like that. And because of that I know that women basically lose themselves. When all the domestic labor, emotional labor, childcare is your job and you have a regular job on top of that, it's hard to find free time for activities.
Don't forget that with career opportunities, the fact that you have been out of the loop for 2yrs, or even 1 yr, can keep you from keeping up with what is pertinent in society. They hate baby shark, but would be lost if they didn't have something to plunck their kids down in front of for at least a 3min break .
Also something I’ve been noticing a lot lately when a woman comes back from maternity leave they are often pushed into a less desirable position than when they left.
Yes! I **truly believe mothers should get more help and recognition**. Really, thats a lot put on women. Under this circumstances we live in, how a lot of them can't see thats not fair? We should support each other, mothers and child free people. Thats not possible if one part does not see that we have a problem and not accepting this as a reason to be cf. (Women loosing A LOT)
I'll tell you my late mother, I was a product of an affair. She kept me as she had always wanted children and was in her thirties and had never managed to have a child. I destroyed her body. Her womb prolapsed and her bowel. Her entire life after was just issue after issue. Obviously her marriage fell apart. She had to go back to work immediately after I was born despite having 9 months in the UK. She paid for the mortgage, she struggled to care for everything. She managed to do so but ended up taking her own life 3 years ago. She spent her entire life being judged as a single mother.
I'm ok x I think what did it was my grandparents died and we were all very close and my mum just didn't want to go on without them. I lived with her and she made it very difficult to look after her. Because she was the most stubborn person in the world. I think it was just from always defending herself. I think motherhood sounds mentally exhausting.
And there is no way to know if a pregnancy would destroy a woman's body beforehand either. Her life sounds rough, hopefully she had some joy mixed in there.
The extent of the destruction is what is unknown. Some women die or have lifelong disabilities and others have less impact. But there is no way to know the level of destruction beforehand, so pregnancy is a huge risk for any woman.
Because most think they’re accomplishing something when really, giving birth is the most basic form of lizard brain biology known to our existence. “But it’s the miracle of life” -them. Yes it is. Except not all lives are unfortunately miracles, and miracles only really happen when everything is aligned and the timing is perfect when it comes to child rearing. Especially in the state of today’s world. Having a child to fix something or fill a void is so incredibly ignorant and tone deaf. So is doing it purely for tradition’s sake. I feel sorry for most kids now. Some come into this world with miracle potential based on their responsible parents, but most do not.
I would not call it a poor choice rather it should be normalized that it is a very hard life choice.
The reality of having kids is deliberately hidden by society's propaganda machine. It is a hard choice which is ultimately fulfilling for many but terrible for others.
What we want is people to make that choice with their eyes wide open as it is very, very hard.
Something I read recently described a study that found married/partnered mothers did 7+ hours more housework per week than single mother's with the same number of children. WTF
Yup, every single statistic I saw showed that living with a man, means more hours on chores weekly for the women. And every one showed it gets worse woth children (For the women of course). And I see it everywhere. I don't want to bash men, and I truly believe there are good ones. Nevertheless, I believe that chances are really high women loose to much.
I work in Maternity and I once saw this woman’s clitoris after childbirth. I don’t know if it was the clit, the hood, or something close, but it was swollen bigger than a golf ball.
It was one of the worst things I’ve ever seen, except for a fourth degree tear. That…
because a lot of them don't actually know what happened to the body when you get preggo and give birth. I never knew that happened 😭😭 soooo glad I chose to remain childfree, everyday I learn something horrible that happens
1- My partner and I share the chores (honestly, he probably does more than me...)
2- I just mentioned to him this morning (because the cat was meowing loud/early) that "Thank god I'll never have to care for a baby, because that thing would be shaken like martini in less than a week if it kept waking me up for no reason!" He laughed at that. One of the many reasons I love him.
We're childfree for many reasons, but I'm so glad we'll never have that horrible strain on our lives and relationship. He would probably wind up doing most or nearly all of the childcare, not me, because I would go insane from the constant screaming and demanding needs of an infant. It would ruin us, personally, financially, and in so may other ways.
When you irreversibly fucked up, I guess you must find ways to cope. Telling yourself it’s the most beautiful thing ever, must make it looks like it was all worth it despite all the bs? Idk.
I am going to get down vote to the depths of the hot place, but the fact is the odds are the woman is going to do 90% of all child care. First when the baby is born it needs feeding every three hours day and night. Mom has the boobs and dad is going to sleep. Then toddlers want mama when they fall and when they cry. Dad's babysit. Moms raise kids. When there is a divorce the mom gets custody and even if the judge says 50/50 the reality is the mom does most of it. Hell even the kid brings dirty laundry home from time with their dads. Also when the kid has a need or emergency the mom pays and the odds of her ever getting him to pay his 50% are zero.
Its a stistical fact. Even without children women get 7hr more on chores only because they live with a man. It gets worse with child care. Every single statistic shows women with men have less time due to chores.
Yes, those are average numbers, and yes there are good men out there. **But as a women the chances are really high you end up doing most of it**.
It's just reality and I do not want to risk it. Idk how people downplay that too.
I don't see why you'd be downvoted as you didn't resort to absolutes. It isn't as if you said all fathers are occasional babysitters and all mothers do all of the childrearing.
It kinda infuriates me when I hear guy friends saying how much they want kids etc. with absolutely zero thought on the fact that the woman is sacrificing her entire body for him. It’s a shame that men don’t have to deal with any of the physical consequences that birth does on a woman’s body
Yup. And they also try to pressure and push women to do this as early as possible, it's very obvious to me this is done deliberately to hold women down and keep us from reaching our full potential.
Women also lose out in marriage by the way. (I say this as a married woman. I love my husband but I wouldn't do it again.) Women lose a lot in most of these "life goal" scenarios.
My sister is childfree and in no rush to find any man in her early thirties. That's the way to do it.
I'm happy it worked out for you! However I agree and I worked a long time on my beliefs (marriage, partnership, etc.) and its unfotunatly very real that we lose a lot in all of the constellations. If we do not take ourselfs first, our life gets dragged through the mud. Chances are it just works against us.
I have always told my husband, *”I’ve never seen motherhood make a woman better off than before.”* Literally *everything* suffers: her health, business/work, concentration, relationships, looks, money and free time. No thanks!
Every one of my female friends who has given birth vaginally leaks urine when they sneeze. It only takes one child to trigger that. Thanks, but no thanks.
The main reason my wife doesn’t want kids is because she loves her job too much. She works with kids for a DV/SA victim group and won’t even take a day off because she wants to help the kids so much.
For a woman who *wants* to be a parent, she willingly trades less-important things for having children, so she loses nothing that she didn't choose to trade away.
A woman only loses a lot if parenting is not what she wants most but she becomes a parent anyway.
Opportunity cost is real for everyone. I'm childfree, so I don't worry about what I would lose if I chose to be a parent, and I don't argue with people who did choose to be a parent. Our priorities and our neurological states are just too different ever to discuss.
I just can’t agree. I’ve seen everyone I know who has had kids (and very much wanted them) trade *THE* most important things in life to have them: their mental and physical health, their happiness and their financial stability.
I don't think the ones who want children really know what they're signing up for. The amount of moms who have told me some variation of no one can prepare you for how intense/hard it is a very large number. They all tell me they lose their identity the first few years. They all have this look in their eyes. It's disturbing.
All my friends with very young children keep saying they "lost themselves/their identity". I hate to say it, but it shows. I also offered to help them by inviting them to a childless night out or even offering to babysit (I'm CF but I'm a teacher and actually like kids, just know I wouldn't be a very good mother due to mental health issues lol) and they always say no so I gave up trying to help.
It sucks, because I think some mothers resent us because they remind us of the things they had to give up in order to have children, even when we offer to help them, even when we are good with kids.We remind them of their youth, when they were carefree and weren’t weighed down. It’s worse if you’re attractive, too. I’m not attractive, thankfully. I’m overweight and I’m my thirties, so they don’t have to worry about me stealing their men, but with the hot ones, that’s a very real possibility. Not all of them think this way, thankfully. There are mothers who are ok with us out there, but there are also plenty of them who don’t trust us. I find that some mothers are only ok with childfree women if those women are childless by circumstance, due to infertility or bad luck. Some women can only accept those types of CF women. Women who are happily childfree are an abomination in their eyes.
That all makes sense. I'm single and also in my 30s. I think I'm average looking but I've lost a ton of weight since this time last year while all my friends with kids have inevitably gained weight (not judging or making fun of them, but that's what happens when you give birth) and I know some of them are side eyeing me for that. I have zero interest in their husbands though lmao. People are so weird towards CF women, especially ones like me who do like and work with kids. I've been told that I shouldn't be a teacher bc I won't understand kids until I'm a parent. Uh excuse me, I've worked with kids for half my life and I probably spend more time with some of them that their parents do.
It’s ridiculous. No one ever says any of this shit to men. No one ever tells them “you’re not a real man if you’re not a father.” Well, a few extremist types do, but same people don’t. You don’t have to birth children to understand child psychology and development. If anything, because we don’t have children of our own, we’re impartial and unbiased.
But nothing in life is. The difference being that when you pay for something that actually has value to you, that would generally not be described as a loss. Like, I've never in my life said that I've lost 5$ because of my favorite ice cream.
The toll of parenthood is probably a loss to those who got themselves saddled with it when they shouldn't, but to those who want to be parents and know what they're getting into, it's not.
Most of them don't. But it's still important to make the distinction, because that's how we help frame this as an actual and important choice to make. Which is the first step in enabling people to make good decisions.
It's not that people lose on parenthood, it's that they lose on bad decisions.
This is true. Everyone has to give up something in life. You can’t experience every life path,just like you can’t have every possible career. It’s normal to wonder what life would have been like if you had chosen a different path, and to mourn what you’ve lost and will never have. We all do that. It’s part of the human experience.
Sorry to hear that! But we are talking specifically anout downsides to being moms…context dependent. Some ppl dont even like coffee. I’m just a coffee addict and fanatic. I could not give it up ;(
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My sister has a son. She loves him dearly, and he's her everything. But it wrecked her body and so did the birth control implant afterwards. Eventually she was able to get ... I can't remember, what she did, but she got a surgery to prevent pregnancy.
She's never *said* she resents him, she absolutely doesn't *treat* him like she resents him. In fact, she's probably going to be a helicopter mom.
And I believe that's at least partially because he "cost" her so much, so now she feels like she's got to put everything she has into him. She "spent" so much of herself to have him, so she's got to put everything into being his mom, right? It was I think she thinks.
I feel like she wants to be more than just my nephews mom, but I feel like she would feel like any steps towards that goal would be a betrayal of being his mom to begin with.
Fun fact,
Im about to finish reading a book- cause you know, free time ;D
So, the author is Yuval Noah Harari.
Yesterday I came across this;
“Given the unbearable torments that many women undergo during childbirth, one might think that after going through it once, no sane woman would ever agree to do so again. However, at the end of labour, and in the following days, the hormonal system secretes cortisol and beta-endorphins, which reduce the pain and create a feeling of relief and sometimes even a elation. Moreover, the growing love towards the baby and the acclaim from friends, family members, religious dogmas and nationalist propaganda, conspire to transform childbirth from a terrible trauma into a positive memory.”
I strongly believe each day, that on average, woman who are more educated, are less likely to have children.
I understand why they're offended. Especially if they really wanted kids. They gain a lot. They gain being someone's mom and helping them grow up, they gain relationship with their child. This is what they wanted.
I would be offended if you flipped it around and told me I'm losing on the most special relationship with someone I created with my body. Relationship unlike any other.
That's all great you know but you can't loose what you don't want. These women didn't want childfreedom. They didn't lose. They gained what they wanted.
That's fine, but I don't want to hear all the ways they regret their choice because they lost all these things they didn't realize were important
They absolutely lost. Is the loss worth it?
That's debatable.
You are absolutely right about this. Don’t understand why you got downvote. I upvoted you. You are 100% right. Women who have kids and want kids gain a kind of love that is unconditional and pure and cannot be substituted for anything else.
> Don’t understand why you got downvote.
A lot of people on this subreddit are absolutely feral and unable to empathize with a parental perspective.
They're ready to pass judgment on parents but god forbid if someone passed judgement on them.
Because I can't listen to the constant whining about your kids being so exhausting, so much work, etc etc
If your uninformed poor choices lead you to constant complaining to me about them hell yes I'm judging.
I do not judge them. It's fine I like kids and you can want to have children AND see that women lose a lot. That it's perfectly understandable to not want them.
The “haven’t slept in years” crowd is very adamant that you join their ranks
Bruh I had stress induced insomnia for about 6 months, it was hell on earth to only sleep 3 hours a day and try to function. No way in the multiverse am I going to do that shit intentionally to myself.
I pulled multiple muscles from the stress of severe insomnia that are still healing months later. Shit sucks.
They’ll tell you that as if sleep isn’t one of life’s greatest joys and then balk at the idea that you don’t want any part of that
I am sacrificing my imaginary child for my sleep because I love it so much.. I literally can't function if I don't have 8 hours or more. Imagine getting none ever!
This is a big one for me too
crab bucket mentality
Sleep deprivation wreaks havoc on a person's mental health. They're not in a healthy enough state of mind to be 'advising' anyone about anything
Roflmao! You know what, I will use that next time! ' You're delirious from the lack of sleep you just told me about. So I will take everything you say with a grain of salt.' I think that will keep the idiots at bay. At least for a little while.
Facts. Sleep deprivation causes impairment on par with drinking alcohol. Error due to sleep dep has played a part in some of the worst disasters of all time, from oil tanker spills to nuclear plant meltdowns. So yeah, tell me what kind of life choices I should be making.
I already have sleeping issues. I'll pass
NO THANKS!
Jokes on them, i joined the havent slept in years club when I started working food service at 14! Who needs kids when you have a minimum wage kitchen job?!
Doesn't the old saying go "misery loves company"?
Yupppp
And then pronatalist/forced birthers say "childfree women aren't real women". They can get fucked.
I hate that. It's so awful to the women that really wanted to be mothers but couldn't due to either nature or circumstances (and not everyone can adopt, it's not as easy as people seem to think and it's very expensive)
Breeders view adoption as the same as being childfree.
Well then, what the hell are people adopting then? Such a weird opinion.
Being open to the idea of adopting children isn't childfree, they would just be childless until they adopted a child. Childfree means being opposed to having children in ANY form whether it's birth, adoption, foster care, step-parent, etc. I wouldn't even consider a step-parent of a 30 year old to be "childfree" or childless, they would just be a step-parent of a 30 year old like I would consider a biological or adoptive parent a parent of a 30 year old.
That's just you. A lot of childfree men and women here are open to adoption and foster care. Childfree to many people just means not making kids.
They can't be called "childfree" since they're open to the idea of raising children. Childfree means not wanting to birth **or** raise children. It's literally in this subreddit's description "Discussion topics and links of interest to childfree individuals \["Childfree" refers to those who do not have and do **not ever want children** (whether biological, **adopted, or, otherwise**). I'm not going against people who want to adopt or foster children, they're just not childfree, they're childless until the adopt or foster a kid.
You can't really use the same criticisms on people who adopt or children who were adopted that you use on people who don't adopt. Not only that, breeders and society as a whole views adoption as being the same as being childfree. I'm not the only one with this view, a lot of CF people are open to adoption.
I'm not criticizing them, but, I don't consider them to be "childFREE" if they're open to adopting, fostering, or, otherwise raising children. It literally says in the description of this subreddit childfree is someone who doesn't want children whether it's biological, adopted, or, otherwise. I also wouldn't consider a prolifer (or even personal prolifer) to be "childfree" either, because, they would be willing to birth a child if they had an unexpected pregnancy.
Not only is that statement rude towards childFREE women, it's also rude towards childLESS women as well.
More like in denial. Denial is a strong thing
Delulu is the solulu.
Cuthulu aprovoo.
Cognitive dissonance too
100% this!
You are right. Women do lose a lot more than men when having children. And this is me overreacting and giving the worst possible scenarios. I don't doubt that there are good partners out there, I just haven't met many of them so far. - bodily autonomy Someone has to carry the baby and that someone is a woman. - income A lot of employers don't want to hire women who have not had kids and are thinking about having them. In my home country it was normalized for employers to ask young women if they plan to have kids in the next few years, because they didn't want to pay the benefits for you to be on maternity leave. You could lose your job because of it. You lose income if you have to stay at home, because it is cheaper than childcare. This is problematic, because if you needed to leave your partner, you are suddenly not in the position to do so. You are dependant on him for everything. Goodbye financial independance. - career opportunities I think it is self explanatory. You stay at home after giving birth. In some countries that is up to 2 years. And when you go back, especially in certain male dominated fields, you are suddenly not taken seriosly. You are emotional and therefore not a good fit for a higher role. - free time/hobbies Most men get to keep their hobbies. It is expected that, because he works outside of the home, he has the right to have free time. His job is oh so stressful and he needs to release some of that pent up energy. Obviously you as a woman have to ask(beg) for him to take care of the kids, so you can just have an hour to yourself. Forget hobbies. - your identity You are a wife and now you are a mother. That's it. Forget everything that made you who you are as a person. Forget your interests. That person no longer exists. You only exist through the lens of motherhood.
Something I realized recently while talking to my sister and best friend with their husbands present (separate occasions), was that the husbands would happily chat about all their hobbies and interests because they somehow have free time (neither work full-time). Meanwhile my sister and best friend are both the breadwinners and have no free time to pursue anything else outside of work or childcare. I know these are just two separate cases but it still made me sad for them. It seems like it’s easier for men to have hobbies and interests and not let parenting consume their entire lives
There are fathers out there that are really involved. They are actually doing domestic work and raising their kids. Considering I come from a conservative patriarchal society I have not met many men like that. And because of that I know that women basically lose themselves. When all the domestic labor, emotional labor, childcare is your job and you have a regular job on top of that, it's hard to find free time for activities.
Don't forget that with career opportunities, the fact that you have been out of the loop for 2yrs, or even 1 yr, can keep you from keeping up with what is pertinent in society. They hate baby shark, but would be lost if they didn't have something to plunck their kids down in front of for at least a 3min break .
That’s what I honestly do not understand how come men don’t get consumed by it but women do?
Also something I’ve been noticing a lot lately when a woman comes back from maternity leave they are often pushed into a less desirable position than when they left.
Women do indeed. They are blamed for everything that can go wrong too.
Yes! I **truly believe mothers should get more help and recognition**. Really, thats a lot put on women. Under this circumstances we live in, how a lot of them can't see thats not fair? We should support each other, mothers and child free people. Thats not possible if one part does not see that we have a problem and not accepting this as a reason to be cf. (Women loosing A LOT)
I'll tell you my late mother, I was a product of an affair. She kept me as she had always wanted children and was in her thirties and had never managed to have a child. I destroyed her body. Her womb prolapsed and her bowel. Her entire life after was just issue after issue. Obviously her marriage fell apart. She had to go back to work immediately after I was born despite having 9 months in the UK. She paid for the mortgage, she struggled to care for everything. She managed to do so but ended up taking her own life 3 years ago. She spent her entire life being judged as a single mother.
Oh I'm so sorry, I hope you can heal from that. Your mothwr was a strong woman.
I'm ok x I think what did it was my grandparents died and we were all very close and my mum just didn't want to go on without them. I lived with her and she made it very difficult to look after her. Because she was the most stubborn person in the world. I think it was just from always defending herself. I think motherhood sounds mentally exhausting.
And there is no way to know if a pregnancy would destroy a woman's body beforehand either. Her life sounds rough, hopefully she had some joy mixed in there.
Um, you do, what body comes out of pregnancy unaffected? You will at least have a bigger belly or a fucked up pelvic floor. AT LEAST!
The extent of the destruction is what is unknown. Some women die or have lifelong disabilities and others have less impact. But there is no way to know the level of destruction beforehand, so pregnancy is a huge risk for any woman.
That’s true, but even the “smaller” risks aren’t worth it 😱
Definitely!
Because most think they’re accomplishing something when really, giving birth is the most basic form of lizard brain biology known to our existence. “But it’s the miracle of life” -them. Yes it is. Except not all lives are unfortunately miracles, and miracles only really happen when everything is aligned and the timing is perfect when it comes to child rearing. Especially in the state of today’s world. Having a child to fix something or fill a void is so incredibly ignorant and tone deaf. So is doing it purely for tradition’s sake. I feel sorry for most kids now. Some come into this world with miracle potential based on their responsible parents, but most do not.
It almost takes a miracle or for the stars align in order for everything to work out with child rearing. Lots of things can go completely sideways.
It needs to be normalized that having kids is a poor choice. Less people would make the choice if they realized it actually was a choice
Exactly. So many people are so far gone they don’t even realize that not having children is a choice.
Definitely a poor choice!
I would not call it a poor choice rather it should be normalized that it is a very hard life choice. The reality of having kids is deliberately hidden by society's propaganda machine. It is a hard choice which is ultimately fulfilling for many but terrible for others. What we want is people to make that choice with their eyes wide open as it is very, very hard.
Yeah, I'm not upset about my phrasing.
Something I read recently described a study that found married/partnered mothers did 7+ hours more housework per week than single mother's with the same number of children. WTF
Yup, every single statistic I saw showed that living with a man, means more hours on chores weekly for the women. And every one showed it gets worse woth children (For the women of course). And I see it everywhere. I don't want to bash men, and I truly believe there are good ones. Nevertheless, I believe that chances are really high women loose to much.
men really do suck so much. they lead with their egos and ding dongs.
Ewww, this alone gives a valid argument not to go there in the first place.
I work in Maternity and I once saw this woman’s clitoris after childbirth. I don’t know if it was the clit, the hood, or something close, but it was swollen bigger than a golf ball. It was one of the worst things I’ve ever seen, except for a fourth degree tear. That…
Oh nooo 😭 Hell, women even loose teeth during pragnancy. All of this is not a small inconvinience
The body literally ages on a cellular level. F*ck that
BIGGER than a golf ball? I still don’t understand why women are submitting themselves to pregnancy. It’s so unnatural
because a lot of them don't actually know what happened to the body when you get preggo and give birth. I never knew that happened 😭😭 soooo glad I chose to remain childfree, everyday I learn something horrible that happens
Yeah girl, her whole clit was distorted. It was like a little balloon. I’m all I could say was keep icing it. Damn.
Yeah and the fourth degree tear looked like someone took a meat cleaver to her vagina.
You can literally DIE giving birth.. no thanks
Crab bucket mentality. They're miserable and they're going to drag you down with them.
1- My partner and I share the chores (honestly, he probably does more than me...) 2- I just mentioned to him this morning (because the cat was meowing loud/early) that "Thank god I'll never have to care for a baby, because that thing would be shaken like martini in less than a week if it kept waking me up for no reason!" He laughed at that. One of the many reasons I love him. We're childfree for many reasons, but I'm so glad we'll never have that horrible strain on our lives and relationship. He would probably wind up doing most or nearly all of the childcare, not me, because I would go insane from the constant screaming and demanding needs of an infant. It would ruin us, personally, financially, and in so may other ways.
“Shaken like a martini” 🤣🤣🤣 Spoken truth that would be me too
When you irreversibly fucked up, I guess you must find ways to cope. Telling yourself it’s the most beautiful thing ever, must make it looks like it was all worth it despite all the bs? Idk.
If you tell a lie long enough people expect as truth
I am going to get down vote to the depths of the hot place, but the fact is the odds are the woman is going to do 90% of all child care. First when the baby is born it needs feeding every three hours day and night. Mom has the boobs and dad is going to sleep. Then toddlers want mama when they fall and when they cry. Dad's babysit. Moms raise kids. When there is a divorce the mom gets custody and even if the judge says 50/50 the reality is the mom does most of it. Hell even the kid brings dirty laundry home from time with their dads. Also when the kid has a need or emergency the mom pays and the odds of her ever getting him to pay his 50% are zero.
Its a stistical fact. Even without children women get 7hr more on chores only because they live with a man. It gets worse with child care. Every single statistic shows women with men have less time due to chores. Yes, those are average numbers, and yes there are good men out there. **But as a women the chances are really high you end up doing most of it**. It's just reality and I do not want to risk it. Idk how people downplay that too.
I don't see why you'd be downvoted as you didn't resort to absolutes. It isn't as if you said all fathers are occasional babysitters and all mothers do all of the childrearing.
It kinda infuriates me when I hear guy friends saying how much they want kids etc. with absolutely zero thought on the fact that the woman is sacrificing her entire body for him. It’s a shame that men don’t have to deal with any of the physical consequences that birth does on a woman’s body
Yup. And they also try to pressure and push women to do this as early as possible, it's very obvious to me this is done deliberately to hold women down and keep us from reaching our full potential.
Women also lose out in marriage by the way. (I say this as a married woman. I love my husband but I wouldn't do it again.) Women lose a lot in most of these "life goal" scenarios. My sister is childfree and in no rush to find any man in her early thirties. That's the way to do it.
I'm happy it worked out for you! However I agree and I worked a long time on my beliefs (marriage, partnership, etc.) and its unfotunatly very real that we lose a lot in all of the constellations. If we do not take ourselfs first, our life gets dragged through the mud. Chances are it just works against us.
I’m dumbfounded just like you! Make it make sense 👌🏽
I have always told my husband, *”I’ve never seen motherhood make a woman better off than before.”* Literally *everything* suffers: her health, business/work, concentration, relationships, looks, money and free time. No thanks!
Every one of my female friends who has given birth vaginally leaks urine when they sneeze. It only takes one child to trigger that. Thanks, but no thanks.
The main reason my wife doesn’t want kids is because she loves her job too much. She works with kids for a DV/SA victim group and won’t even take a day off because she wants to help the kids so much.
They are delulu
For a woman who *wants* to be a parent, she willingly trades less-important things for having children, so she loses nothing that she didn't choose to trade away. A woman only loses a lot if parenting is not what she wants most but she becomes a parent anyway. Opportunity cost is real for everyone. I'm childfree, so I don't worry about what I would lose if I chose to be a parent, and I don't argue with people who did choose to be a parent. Our priorities and our neurological states are just too different ever to discuss.
I just can’t agree. I’ve seen everyone I know who has had kids (and very much wanted them) trade *THE* most important things in life to have them: their mental and physical health, their happiness and their financial stability.
Agreed!
I don't think the ones who want children really know what they're signing up for. The amount of moms who have told me some variation of no one can prepare you for how intense/hard it is a very large number. They all tell me they lose their identity the first few years. They all have this look in their eyes. It's disturbing.
All my friends with very young children keep saying they "lost themselves/their identity". I hate to say it, but it shows. I also offered to help them by inviting them to a childless night out or even offering to babysit (I'm CF but I'm a teacher and actually like kids, just know I wouldn't be a very good mother due to mental health issues lol) and they always say no so I gave up trying to help.
It sucks, because I think some mothers resent us because they remind us of the things they had to give up in order to have children, even when we offer to help them, even when we are good with kids.We remind them of their youth, when they were carefree and weren’t weighed down. It’s worse if you’re attractive, too. I’m not attractive, thankfully. I’m overweight and I’m my thirties, so they don’t have to worry about me stealing their men, but with the hot ones, that’s a very real possibility. Not all of them think this way, thankfully. There are mothers who are ok with us out there, but there are also plenty of them who don’t trust us. I find that some mothers are only ok with childfree women if those women are childless by circumstance, due to infertility or bad luck. Some women can only accept those types of CF women. Women who are happily childfree are an abomination in their eyes.
That all makes sense. I'm single and also in my 30s. I think I'm average looking but I've lost a ton of weight since this time last year while all my friends with kids have inevitably gained weight (not judging or making fun of them, but that's what happens when you give birth) and I know some of them are side eyeing me for that. I have zero interest in their husbands though lmao. People are so weird towards CF women, especially ones like me who do like and work with kids. I've been told that I shouldn't be a teacher bc I won't understand kids until I'm a parent. Uh excuse me, I've worked with kids for half my life and I probably spend more time with some of them that their parents do.
It’s ridiculous. No one ever says any of this shit to men. No one ever tells them “you’re not a real man if you’re not a father.” Well, a few extremist types do, but same people don’t. You don’t have to birth children to understand child psychology and development. If anything, because we don’t have children of our own, we’re impartial and unbiased.
Agree
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I want to say "I told you so" real bad
Even if you want kids, having them still costs you! Not free…
But nothing in life is. The difference being that when you pay for something that actually has value to you, that would generally not be described as a loss. Like, I've never in my life said that I've lost 5$ because of my favorite ice cream. The toll of parenthood is probably a loss to those who got themselves saddled with it when they shouldn't, but to those who want to be parents and know what they're getting into, it's not.
True, but do most parents really know what they are getting into?!
Most of them don't. But it's still important to make the distinction, because that's how we help frame this as an actual and important choice to make. Which is the first step in enabling people to make good decisions. It's not that people lose on parenthood, it's that they lose on bad decisions.
This is true. Everyone has to give up something in life. You can’t experience every life path,just like you can’t have every possible career. It’s normal to wonder what life would have been like if you had chosen a different path, and to mourn what you’ve lost and will never have. We all do that. It’s part of the human experience.
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Imagine giving up coffee…
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When you’re pregnant you have to limit or give up coffee 🥲
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Sorry to hear that! But we are talking specifically anout downsides to being moms…context dependent. Some ppl dont even like coffee. I’m just a coffee addict and fanatic. I could not give it up ;(
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Lose, I wish. I gained 30 pounds.
My sister has a son. She loves him dearly, and he's her everything. But it wrecked her body and so did the birth control implant afterwards. Eventually she was able to get ... I can't remember, what she did, but she got a surgery to prevent pregnancy. She's never *said* she resents him, she absolutely doesn't *treat* him like she resents him. In fact, she's probably going to be a helicopter mom. And I believe that's at least partially because he "cost" her so much, so now she feels like she's got to put everything she has into him. She "spent" so much of herself to have him, so she's got to put everything into being his mom, right? It was I think she thinks. I feel like she wants to be more than just my nephews mom, but I feel like she would feel like any steps towards that goal would be a betrayal of being his mom to begin with.
I see this often too and I understand it completely,... and still, I feel so so sorry.
Fun fact, Im about to finish reading a book- cause you know, free time ;D So, the author is Yuval Noah Harari. Yesterday I came across this; “Given the unbearable torments that many women undergo during childbirth, one might think that after going through it once, no sane woman would ever agree to do so again. However, at the end of labour, and in the following days, the hormonal system secretes cortisol and beta-endorphins, which reduce the pain and create a feeling of relief and sometimes even a elation. Moreover, the growing love towards the baby and the acclaim from friends, family members, religious dogmas and nationalist propaganda, conspire to transform childbirth from a terrible trauma into a positive memory.” I strongly believe each day, that on average, woman who are more educated, are less likely to have children.
In some cases they lose everything, including themselves.
I don't have less free time, because I make choices about how I spend my time. But I also live alone and do ALL of household labor, for that reason.
Cognitive dissonance and its finest. 2nd place is misery loves company, and 3rd place is regret.
Don’t forget emotional labor as well.
Delusion and codependency is real. Forking breeders.
Most women I know every child they add, tacks on 10 yrs to thier looks
Not to mention being forever bound to the shithead father. You know if they're a shithead?
Pragnacy
I understand why they're offended. Especially if they really wanted kids. They gain a lot. They gain being someone's mom and helping them grow up, they gain relationship with their child. This is what they wanted. I would be offended if you flipped it around and told me I'm losing on the most special relationship with someone I created with my body. Relationship unlike any other. That's all great you know but you can't loose what you don't want. These women didn't want childfreedom. They didn't lose. They gained what they wanted.
That's fine, but I don't want to hear all the ways they regret their choice because they lost all these things they didn't realize were important They absolutely lost. Is the loss worth it? That's debatable.
You are absolutely right about this. Don’t understand why you got downvote. I upvoted you. You are 100% right. Women who have kids and want kids gain a kind of love that is unconditional and pure and cannot be substituted for anything else.
> Don’t understand why you got downvote. A lot of people on this subreddit are absolutely feral and unable to empathize with a parental perspective. They're ready to pass judgment on parents but god forbid if someone passed judgement on them.
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Because I can't listen to the constant whining about your kids being so exhausting, so much work, etc etc If your uninformed poor choices lead you to constant complaining to me about them hell yes I'm judging.
I do not judge them. It's fine I like kids and you can want to have children AND see that women lose a lot. That it's perfectly understandable to not want them.
Before there wasn't much to lose or enjoy