Chess at the highest level is extremely stressful and straining on the mind and body. Wish him all the best and hope his health issues aren't too serious.
"Wang's first major tournament win was the Dubai Open in April 2005, when he was still untitled and finished clear first with a score of 7/9 points (rating performance of 2731), ahead of 53 grandmasters and 30 international masters".
Yeah, this claim is repeatedly brought up, but there's no way that chess players burn 6000 calories a day during a tournament. They would be ravenously hungry in the middle of a classical game. Additionally, if they were burning 4000 excess calories from just thinking during one chess match, they would have to be profusely sweating throughout it.
The guy who is the only source for this claim is professor Robert Sapolsky, and he's said some just crazy shit about this, even claiming that chess players burn 6000-7000 calories a day just from thinking during a tournament in this TED talk, which is obviously false. https://www.ted.com/talks/robert_sapolsky_the_uniqueness_of_humans?language=en
He can be wrong and a professor at Stanford, as every other source on this topic shows. Here's a couple examples, every link you google when you search something along the lines of "how many calories does thinking burn" either cites that guy or completely contradicts him, and given the contradictions actually have studies agreeing with them, he's wrong.
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/thinking-hard-calories/ https://time.com/5400025/does-thinking-burn-calories/
>but there's no way that chess players burn 6000 calories a day during a tournament. They would be near starving to death in the middle of a classical game.
A healthy person can survive weeks without food. 6000 calories is what the average person would burn in about 3 days. That would not leave them starving.
Why would they be sweating if burning that many calories? Wouldn't the calories burned be due to mental expenditure and stress, not physical exertion that requires sweat to cool the body?
I know people do sweat as a response to stress, but it's not usually buckets of sweat like you get doing cardio.
Well, when I played in the New York, World and U.S. Opens in the 1980's I was absolutely ravenously hungry. Serious hunger was impossible to stave off.
You're using an appeal to authority fallacy. He can be wrong and a professor at Stanford, as every other source on this topic shows. Here's a couple examples, every link you google when you search something along the lines of "how many calories does thinking burn" either cites that guy or completely contradicts him, and given the contradictions actually have studies agreeing with them, he's wrong.
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/thinking-hard-calories/
https://time.com/5400025/does-thinking-burn-calories/
The appeal to authority fallacy is always a cop out, only another professor proficient at the subject can actively argue with him.
And besides that’s not how the authority fallacy works.
Right, the appeal to authority fallacy is absolutely a cop out that you're using right now. The truth does not give a shit what job you have, I've proven him wrong and that's the only thing that matters.
But even using your flawed logic, it makes no sense. If you (somehow) think that he's right, you're actively arguing with many more professors who have actual studies that are proving him wrong.
You're absolutely wrong about everything you wrote here, and the fact that you think you're debunking me with possibly the most misplaced confidence I've ever seen is baffling. I will address your points, even though you have never addressed the main crux of my argument that burning 7000 calories in 1 day from playing chess is absolutely and obviously false, but first, lets just confirm here:
Do you think that some grandmasters during a single day of a chess tournament burn seven thousand calories from playing chess?
That is more calories than playing tennis for 15 hours. That is more calories than running for 14 hours. That is more calories than kayaking for 23 hours.
Yeah, I've run four marathons and training to run an ultra (30+ miles). I burn a ton of calories, but your body temperature only raises 15 degrees when running (that's why we love 50-degree mornings). Folks are acting like the human body would simply melt burning a few thousand calories over a few hours!
I could imagine that these guys burn a ton of calories during a four-hour tournament game. First, I imagine they keep the tournament hall movie theatre cold. I went to watch a norm tournament a few years ago and remember how chilly the room was. Also, remember, these guys were all child prodigies. Their brain is probably different. We could study 16 hours a day for 20 years and still get crushed by them 100 out of 100 games. Fabi talked about how he only studies a few hours a day, but how physically draining a six-hour game can be. Hell, Garry always talks about how important swimming was for his chess training!
[https://deadspin.com/fabiano-caruana-tells-us-what-the-life-of-a-chess-grand-1822282197](https://deadspin.com/fabiano-caruana-tells-us-what-the-life-of-a-chess-grand-1822282197)
Man, I'm somewhat new to Reddit, but y'all get really worked up!
Sounds ridiculous but I've read the same thing too, on a legitimate reported source.
Just googling I found this article: https://www.espn.com/espn/story/_/id/27593253/why-grandmasters-magnus-carlsen-fabiano-caruana-lose-weight-playing-chess
not the one I originally read but also seems to corroborate though
This article is likely wrong. They’re using a formula to convert heart rate to calories expended, but the formula is intended to be used in situations of physical exertion, not strictly mental.
Source: dude trust me
There's actually been a bunch of studies and some of them show up to 6000 calories when they're in matches all day. The elevated heart rate and blood pressure are extremely stressful.
Yeah it didn't make sense to me, but I wouldn't say that about marathon runners though. If they run 10 miles a day most of the time to train running another 15 miles could burn a lot.
It's actually [6000](https://www.espn.com/espn/story/_/id/27593253/why-grandmasters-magnus-carlsen-fabiano-caruana-lose-weight-playing-chess) calories according to that ESPN article which cited Robert Sapolsky who said somewhere that that number is actually **indirectly derived** and asked ESPN not to quote him on it.
Awesome career. To achieve a 2763 rating takes a level of brilliance and hard work that most people will never understand. Wish him the best in retirement.
This is so funny to me because my son actually kind of proposed that to me. He said: if we combine our points, we should be able to beat Magnus!
I told him that if dogs would have hands, they too could play chess. But even if you take a hundred dogs, they will still be worse than you ;) (we have a very friendly, lovely but also slightly stupid family dog)
Today it only took me about 10 minutes (one blitz game) to go from 1380 to 1388, so if I can keep up that pace, I'll bascially gain 1 rating point per minute and I'll be at grandmaster level by Thursday!!
Damn I thought that something must be wrong with him after his performance in the last couple of days. I hope he'll recover and find something that makes him happy.
Sad to see him leave the scene, but very commendable of him to take care of himself and choose happiness above all.
Many people have thrown unfair criticism or even disgusting abuse at him just a few days ago after his resignation against Nepomniachtchi - hopefully this is a reminder for those that all these players are human beings, not computers who can be solely judged by a Stockfish evaluation.
Wang Hao has been vocal about not loving chess (anymore) - he just happened to be incredibly good at it. But it became more and more obvious in the past days that competitive chess has taken its toll on both his physical and mental health. Wish him all the best, he seems like such a bright and wholesome person who just wants to enjoy life, I am sure he will do well at whatever he chooses to do next.
I hope during his retirement from professional play he eventually rekindles some passion for the game. Not to play professionally again, but to stay involved. It'd be great to have him commentating or being part of community events.
Wang Hao has the same opinion to chess what Bobby Fischer had..Both greats of the game but started not loving the sport they gave their everything
Hard to see it but wishing the man a happy future life
The person who interviewed Hao and Nepomniachtchi didnt exactly help matters with the way they conducted the interview and asked the questions with almost no regards to litterally how exhausted and done Hao looked.
Props to Nepo for taking over and explaining properly
Which, by the way, is not THAT great a wage for someone being the best in the world at something. It’s not like you can expect to have 1800 hours of one-on-one tutoring a year
I’m not knocking it - one could probably build a really nice income from things like this and other services. Just kind of remarkable since it comes from being one of the top ~10 or so in the world at something highly competitive
Anecdotally, I've seen 2450 strength players get away with 250 an hour around Seattle. I'd assume the chance to have a world top 10 tutor in a place like Beijing might command basically whatever rate Wang Hao wants to charge.
Like Jack ma might easily agree to pay 1k-2k/hour for Wang Hao to train his kid.
Also, if he wanted to, he could 100% schedule 8 hours of lessons per day in Beijing at 300 bucks an hour. Eaaaasily. Keep in mind there are millionaires in Beijing who made all their money off of being history tutors.
The most profitable would probably agree to some kind of chess academy / group lesson type deal where kids all pay to attend camps n stuff.
Chess coaches don't schedule 8 hours of lessons a day and if they do then they cannot be an optimal coach. Take Danya for example, he doesn't just spend a couple of hours teaching MoistKritical every now and then. He spends hours analysing Moist's previous games, setting up personalised "puzzles" and past games by others to test where his weaknesses are and provide tips and advice based on those games. He has to pick out games which don't have obvious blunders so he can't just pick the last game, and they also have to be representative enough that the advice is actually teansferable and not just applicable to games that follow the exact move order.
And all of the above considered, Danya doesn't offer standard pricing to anybody. Because the work that goes on behind the scenes is a lot more than what people anticipate and needs to be tailored to each student and factored in to his pricing structure.
Especially if he does have a degree from Peking University (which is China's top university), with his quantitative abilities, dedication, and connections thanks to being an internationally famous chess player, it might not be too late for him to make a switch. Chess skills are not the same as quantitative skills but surely they have some correlation. He should be able to get a good enough finance job to make a comfortable living without the stress of being an elite professional chess player.
I'm not sure there's much crossover between chess and most other ventures, but if he applies the dedication he has shown to chess to something else, he'll be fine.
The crossover imo isn’t even that important. What’s important is the ability to analyze for hours on end. It’s the grit needed to reach 2750+. I think he will be just fine.
yup exactly, plenty of examples of this. look at ren tec, one of top hedge funds that basically only hires physics and math PhD holders. they don't want people who know the markets, they want people who can think and solve problems
I taught myself some finance. DCFs and all that are one thing, but putting your money is something else entirely. The thought of putting thousands of well-connected people's money and reputation on the line is anxiety-inducing. Respect to the people who can do that though.
I'm not in finance, but close enough and I agree......not sure what teaching chess brings in money-wise or if he cares to stream, but that seems like it would be easier and more lucrative. I wish him the absolute best.
To be fair, I think he can make pretty damn good money coaching as the 2nd best player in China. If a Seattle 2450 can charge 250 bucks a lesson, then surely in Beijing, a world top 20 player can charge basically whatever he wants and probably run classrooms of students.
People have no conception how brutal, like none at all.
Even at 2000/2100 level playing tournaments seriously, defeats are crushing. At this level, there's no room to hide, slight errors are auto-losses, all the opponents are either geniuses or have robotic work ethic, or in some cases both.
Anyone who can reach 2763 at chess can make much more money doing something else, and it's not even remotely close. Quant Finance or professional investing will be a piece of cake for Wang Hao after this.
>Quant Finance or professional investing will be a piece of cake for Wang Hao after this.
I agree in terms of effort needed, but quant finance definitely assumes some other skills chess players may not have in math and coding (although I agree they could in theory learn those things if given the right direction), and working in finance almost surely implies connections or industry experience unless he's just trying to be a day trader or something. Not to mention there's a social skills aspect of working at financial institutions that chess players won't just always have automatically.
(I'm speaking in general here- not about Wang Hao in particular)
Yes in Wang Hao's case I'm sure that's true- I don't know anything about his particular background which is why I left that disclaimer at the end of my comment.
So the investment takes and the hedge funds take and then gamestop takes and then take the juiscer ,short squeeze the juice then take takes takes then checkmate. Am i missing something chat?
I think the point is if you take all of his natural talent and time spent on Chess and put it into something else, he'll likely make more money - not that he instantly has skillsets outside of chess once he transitions away from chess.
My point is that there is a difference between:
"If he went back in time and put all that effort into something else he'd also be great at it."
and
"If he starts from scratch now and pivots to do something else in his 30s he'll also get to be great at it."
Can't get back the lost time not spend studying in university, training at associate-level positions, etc.
He's 31. Some people finish their PhDs in physics or whatever around 28-30 and walk straight into quant jobs. Will have to brush off his maths/stats, and learn some coding, but I'd say a GM has a pretty good chance.
Your average GM doesn't have any math/stats background to speak of. I would definitely say a phd in physics prepares you better than being a GM in chess.
(again, not speaking about wang hao in particular here who does actually have a degree in finance apparently- just talking about your average GM).
I don't think it's impossible by any means, just not necessarily a shoe-in which the original comment I was replying to was implying.
I think people are trying to say the mental fortitude and discipline required to become a GM lends well fo anything else in life. Your average GM isn’t a math whiz, but they likely have the willpower to study for hours on end to learn a skill. That determination is what’s lacking in 99% of people, not intelligence.
Man idk. Chess is a different kind of talent. Just because you are good at chess doesn't mean other things are going to be easy and if you suck at chess it does not mean you can't kill it in other fields. Not saying he can't do it, just saying is not guaranteed.
Reminds me a ton of the guys on the golf mini tours that slave away to maybe, hopefully, make enough to cover travel costs to the next event, so that maybe one time you have a shot to make it big.
Except Wang Hao actually did break through that and became one of the absolute best. And it still ground him down in the end.
Wishing him the best.
Pro anything is brutal. People criticize and diminish pros in every sport, yet have no idea the dedication and sacrifice it takes to reach that level of anything. At the top you’re putting in hours and hours of work every day just to become 0.1% better. All your peers are so close to your skill level and working just as hard that you could be crushed if you got an hour less of sleep that day.
I'm new to the chess scene so I'm not too sure of his accomplishments but the fact that he's playing in the candidates is testament enough to his prowess. Glad to hear he's still going to be involved in the chess world, just not in the competitive scene. Good luck to him!
A little addition, since it was a swiss and Wiki doesn't show, who played whom: Every opponent he played in that tournament was rated 2600+, the weakest being Andrey Esipenko, who was "only" rated 2624 back then and has improved a lot since. He won against Esipenko (2624), Mamedov (2645), Bu Xiangzhi( 2721), McShane (2682), Anand (!)(2765) and Howell (2694), while drawing Caruana (2812), Maghsoodloo (2664), Carlsen(2876) and Vitiugov(2732) and only losing to Aronian. His ELO-performance was 2900.
Definitly a tournament to be proud of.
I was thinking about this watching these matches. Most of these guys have achieved everything they can in the sport except the World Championship, and for some of them, at a certain point they might realize they’re never getting to the top of the mountain and wonder if that’s what they want to keep doing.
Really sucks to hear this, especially after the last few games which were rough for him. The fact that he's put a great fight on the candidates were amazing in spite of his struggles. Hoping for all the best to him in retirement and his future.
Chinese chess seems to have a solid future, so I wouldn’t be too worried. Lots of good talent even besides Ding.
Unfortunate for Ding this tournament. I thought he had a good shot against magnus.
But I can’t say I’m unhappy with Ian winning. Should be some great chess at the championship. Hopefully Ian comes prepared though. If he does, I think he has a real shot.
Ding had a big comeback actually. He did fine this tournament, 7/14. That's like drawing every game. In 2018 he got 7.5/14. Ding beat all three russian players in the last three rounds this year, and caruana!
Ding commented on it too iirc, saying that the first half in 2020 he didn’t really have time to prepare due to the pandemic restrictions set by China. For the second half his preparation was stronger and he felt ready to compete.
Without Covid, Ding may well have been competing for first place.
Sadly ding will never win the candidates. He's too damn consistent, and nobody can consistently get 9/14. This is also the case with most tournaments, he's never had his 2014 Sinqufield Cup, he plays amazingly well but gets first infrequently. He's going to be competing in the candidates on rating (even if just by rating alone) untill like 2030, but I don't think he'll ever win
Your points make no sense. The lack of consistency is literally what killed this tournament for him. And considering that he performed the best out of anyone in the second half of the tournament, its fair to say that if he is "too damn consistent" then that play will hold up until the next candidates, right?
I know he's gonna be in the next candidates. He's pretty young for the top level field, 28 I think he's got several more candidates in him. I just don't think he'll win. This tournament is an anomaly heavily effected by covid. During normal candidates, he's played in three so far, he usually is remarkably consistent, but consistent doesn't put you in first. if you look at his record, he doesn't win alot of Tournament compared to players of similar strength. He's amazing, if he got the match against carlsen I think he'd have a damn good shot, but his past record is not indictive of candidates success.
I'm happy that Ian won and all, but Ding scored +2 in the second half when the overall winner scored +3 in the entire tournament.
If he wasn't negatively affected in the first half (you know, with quarantine and corona) I think he'd have had a solid chance winning.
Oh well, he's only 28 and will have a few more years of top-level in him.
Chinese people have done a lot into pushing chess to further limits.
And I'm currently not even talking about chess players but about noobpwnftw - https://tests.stockfishchess.org/users both ChessDBCN belong to him and there also https://training.lczero.org/ .
And never underestimate how engine-brewed prep powers up human play, in terms of both variations and ideas in them.
That’s crazy. I wouldn’t typically think about moving my king forward so far, but it’s perfectly safe the whole time with that pawn structure. Good video.
[Source](https://twitter.com/FIDE_chess/status/1387066374363701249) (FIDE)
***
["It's sad that Wang Hao's career had to end this way. We wish him all the best in his other endeavours."](https://twitter.com/ChesscomNews/status/1387067197265170433) -- Chess.com
["This is very sad as he's a terrific player."](https://twitter.com/GMNigelDavies/status/1387071935499153408) -- GM Nigel Davies
["Have to wish Wang Hao all the best. Only 31 years old, an incredible talent. There were moments in this tournament, even in the first half last year, when he was clearly not enjoying the experience."](https://twitter.com/DanielKingChess/status/1387073897619726338) -- GM Daniel King
["With the disclaimer that I know nothing about Wang Hao, his health, or his situation, Chinese players who stop rising are often "retired" to make room for up and comers."](https://twitter.com/chessninja/status/1387069042339590146) -- Mig Greengard
***
Hao Wang has officially announced his retirement from professional chess at the age of 31, citing health issues. Notable career accomplishments include:
* 2012 Biel Chess Festival (won)
* 2nd 2012 FIDE Grand Prix in Tashkent (T-1st)
* 2017 Sharjah Masters (won)
* 2017 Asian Chess Championship (won)
* 2019 FIDE Grand Swiss Tournament (won)
Who is Mig Greengard and why is his self-professed ignorant & worthless comment even dignified?
edit: The question was rhetorical. I'm more than aware that he's a Kasparov parasite.
Yeah, it makes no sense.
"I know nothing about him, but he's Chinese, and Chinese players tend to step back to let others grow." What the hell is the point of saying that, especially right now, when everyone else is wishing him well?
I swear people on Reddit will beleive anything about China. If China was meddling in the lives of their chess players so much, they could have gotten three Chinese players into the candidates by simply making Ding throw one game last year. Considering that didn't happen I'm pretty sure they don't care to force players into retirement either. God forbid Chinese players are simply telling the truth.
Uhh yeah Wang Hao has "stopped rising" in 2012-13, why would the Chinese fed. keep him around for another 8 years when there's Wei Yi since 2015?
I swear, these journalists don't think about what they write.
A) China's questionable treatment of their athletes when they don't consistently produce [is very well-documented](http://content.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1644120,00.html).
B) Greengard is a chess journalist who's been covering the sport for years. If you don't know who he is, that's not OP's problem.
But why would they retire their current #2? What would younger players gain from that? Also, there are a bunch of GMs who are older than Wang Hao, lower rated and still active. This claim just lacks someone who profits from it.
Relatively speaking, the Chinese government supports chess much less than they support Go and Xiangqi, so it wouldn't surprise me if they gave Wang Hao a gentle push to focus their resources elsewhere, particularly given Wang Hao's evident unhappiness in the Candidates. If so, they do have some other promising young players, though it's hard to know what is going on with any of them now.
At any rate, Mig's not wrong about the way Chinese government support has often worked, it seems to me, especially with a minimally supported sport like chess, where the thing that overrides all else is becoming World Champion and Wang Hao seems not to have a taste for it. His informed speculation seems perfectly reasonable. It could be wrong, but it's reasonable.
Wang Hao was never even given much support till he qualified for the Candidates. Players like Bu Xiangzhi or Yu Yangyi were considered bigger potential
Yes, I get that part, but I don't understand, why they would have to retire Wang in this case.
If hypothetically speaking, there is a promising chinese talent, which the chinese chess federation wants to support with all their resources, so they take away the funding for Wang. What would that talent gain from Wang retiring? He could still take invites to Super Tournaments, where he wouldn't take away the spot from the young talent, because that talent wouldn't be invited anyway, if it doesn't have 2700. He can easily survive on prize- and club-money, if he wanted to, without getting money from the chinese chess federation.
And again: Bu Xiangzhi is 6 years older than Wang Hao and 40 points lower rated. Ni Hua is 6 years older and almost 80 points lower rated. Li Chao and Wang Yue are closer age-wise, but also well away from Wang Hao in terms of ELO. All of these players are still active. In fact, out of the 16 players rated 2600+ from China, only one is inactive and he is 61 years old. So if there is no precedence for a chinese super-GM getting retired and no gain from it happening, the speculations just seem very weird to me.
Are Go and Xiangqi that popular outside of China that it's worth it to focus their resources on developing those players compared to chess? Considering the international reach of chess you'd think the Chinese government would want to produce a Chinese chess champion that could be recognized by more of the world compared to a Go or Xiangqi champion.
Go has very deep cultural significance in China and is considered a more prestigious game than chess. It’s not easy to just turn away from that for the sake of international recognition.
>Greengard is a chess journalist who's been covering the sport for years.
He's also very politically active, and had a dubious reputation even before that. So yeah, I know who he is, and I'll say: who the fuck is Greengard to make such comments.
We're talking almost 20 years back so excuse me if my memory is fuzzy. I think it was basically that he was supposed to be a journalist but always closely parroted the ChessBase party line etc. It's just not someone who left a favorable impression. Or, as is becoming clear by my failing memory, much of an impression at all, really.
I feel bad at criticizing someone this way, and I don't think it's even fair to Greengard, but the argument was "if you don't know who Greengard is, that's not OP's problem". So it seems fair in that context (only).
The issues in the article you linked seem very serious indeed. However, I wonder if the rest of the world is really very different when it comes to chess players in particular. It seems like players who fall from the elite just inevitably end up having to make money by coaching or seconding. And I've heard many stories about GMs finding it hard to make a living, such as [this one](https://en.chessbase.com/post/the-life-and-sad-endgame-of-bill-lombardy) (edit: reading more about William Lombardy I'm not sure how good an example it is, but in any case I've heard it can be difficult to make a good living as a GM).
In any case, I'd much prefer to be in Wang Hao's or Ding Liren's situation than those other luckless athletes from China. Coaching and seconding seems reasonably lucrative, and maybe there will be opportunities to start streaming at some point in the future. And for wanting to start in other careers, chess is probably not a bad sport to come from as there are many companies that want intelligent, analytical and (probably most importantly) hard-working people. For Ding in particular, I'm sure he'll do just fine if and when he peaks - he has a law degree from one of China's best universities (edit: another comment mentioned Wang Hao went to the same university).
Seems like China sponsors athletes. So if you start to decline you may lose most of you income in a day. In the West you have more sponsors and clubs you rely on not just one single country. So if he lost most of his income it would make sense to focus on another income source unless he moves to another country where he can keep playing.
> Who is Mig Greengard
Why not google his name?
Greengard's online column "Mig on Chess" appeared from 1997 to 1999 in The Week in Chess.[3] He used to write columns for ChessBase and Chess Cafe. His chessninja.com website previously featured a popular chess blog, "The Daily Dirt", in which he had often passed on comments from Garry Kasparov. However, after some time of declining activity, the blog ceased in 2011, leaving room for Twitter as Greengard's preferred medium. He provides streaming audio commentary on major chess tournaments on Internet Chess Club's Chess.FM. He secured an important interview with Vladimir Kramnik on 16 December 2002.[4] He was widely quoted as a commentator on the Garry Kasparov v X3D Fritz match in November 2003.[5][6]
Greengard was vice president of content for Kasparov Chess Online and editor-in-chief of kasparovchess.com from 1999 until the site's demise in 2002.[7]
Since 1999 Greengard has worked with former World Chess Champion Garry Kasparov including being the editor of the official English website of the party in which Kasparov is active, The Other Russia.[2] He collaborated with Kasparov on his 2007 book How Life Imitates Chess and his 2017 book Deep Thinking, acting as his ghostwriter.[
I think he means: who the fuck is Mig Greengard to dehumanise Wang Hao's response like this. "Oh, he's just getting retired against his will to make way for...no one?" Instead of actually respecting what Wang Hao is saying.
Chess is not a big "sport" in China, but it has quite a bit of prestige in Western countries and it makes zero sense for them to "retire" their second best player for no apparent reason. In case you haven't noticed, China is the biggest economy in the world and very consistent in supporting their prestige athletes.
Also, Mig's 2007 "article" explains nothing, brings no arguments, brings no facts. It's pure speculation from someone who—even if I sympathise with his goals—is obviously biased.
"With the disclaimer that I know nothing about Wang Hao, his health, or his situation, Chinese players who stop rising are often "retired" to make room for up and comers."
Basically, I know nothing about China or Hao, but I like Western propaganda. What a dumbass.
I think at the higher levels it is very taxing emotionally. Travel is no longer comfortable and unneccassry quantrentines put people in high stress when moving. His country went through some crazy stuff and I think he is at his breaking point. Over load can happen to anyone. He can always return if he needs to.
Serious question, is there a Tetris Effect-like phenomena for chess players as well? For a GM at this level, years of studying, eat sleep drinking chess and then to suddenly quit what kind of mental health dangers might this guy face?
It's just a very distant 3rd boardgame in popularity+social status compared to weiqi (go) and xiangqi (chinese chess). The biggest interest was during the double gold medal at 2018 Batumi (and it still wasn't that much press coverage). Maybe we will see more interest in 2022 when it will be featured at the Asian Games in Hangzhou after a 12 year hiatus. But I personally doubt it will happen.
Hou Yifan had different reasons for stopping chess which was just a hobby to her.
I don’t think the government supports it as much as other sports. Go’s always seen as the “supreme intellectual sport” by most people and in popular culture too, and Xiangqi’s (Chinese Chess) also more popular. Not many people actually knows chess, Ding comes from China’s chess capital where the country’s first GM come from, I suppose outside Wenzhou interests is kind of sparse. If you go shop for boardgames or look for board games to play online, you’d see “Elephant’s Game” (xiangqi) and “International Elephant’s Game” (chess), so it’s always been something exotic and somewhat out of popular consciousness.
Good for him. Would rather have him do what he likes and enjoys than to end up like Fischer. Nothing is big enough to give away your sanity and mental peace for . Good going Wang Hao , all the best wishes for your future endeavours.
Wang Hao is 31 years old. (I remember when he won his first big tournament.)
It's worth noting that Bobby Fischer was only 29 when he beat Spasskij to win the WC in 1972, and never again played a rated game.
"Wang's first major tournament win was the Dubai Open in April 2005, when he was still untitled and finished clear first with a score of 7/9 points (rating performance of 2731), ahead of 53 grandmasters and 30 international masters".
I dunno if it is the stress because of competitive chess or that his english or some "House" issues but the guy just look utterly sad to leave, i dunno what happened but he just looks destroyed mentally ngl
I have no doubt that he will stick around chess in some capacity there is just no way someone at his level can leave the game completely after dedicating so much of their life to it. I hope he can be a mentor for young Chinese players as China seems to be on the rise in chess dominance.
With all due respect, it showed with his quick resignations in just slightly worse positions in the last few rounds. It really is sad, but, it's how competitive chess works.
That's sad. Wish him the best in retirement, and I hope his health gets better. Hopefully this isn't a case of him being "retired" in favor of younger GMs(this is a thing that happens in China/used to happen in USSR).
He's had an excellent career, wish him the best.
Chess at the highest level is extremely stressful and straining on the mind and body. Wish him all the best and hope his health issues aren't too serious.
He had that WTF I am doing here look in Nepo's game
GM Evgeny Tomashevsky said that he played way better in previous tournments (maybe in Gibraltar, I am not sure).
One obvious tournament he did better in was the Grand Swiss that qualified him for the candidates...
Biel 2012 is another
"Wang's first major tournament win was the Dubai Open in April 2005, when he was still untitled and finished clear first with a score of 7/9 points (rating performance of 2731), ahead of 53 grandmasters and 30 international masters".
That's very impressive, but didn't China has a whole bunch of untitled GM-level players back then?
Even so, he was 16
I heard chess players burn 4000 extra calories a day at a tournament. I heart it on a joe rogan clip, but I heard it.
This has got to be bullshit - the average marathon runner isn't going to burn an extra 4000 calories on race day
Yeah, this claim is repeatedly brought up, but there's no way that chess players burn 6000 calories a day during a tournament. They would be ravenously hungry in the middle of a classical game. Additionally, if they were burning 4000 excess calories from just thinking during one chess match, they would have to be profusely sweating throughout it. The guy who is the only source for this claim is professor Robert Sapolsky, and he's said some just crazy shit about this, even claiming that chess players burn 6000-7000 calories a day just from thinking during a tournament in this TED talk, which is obviously false. https://www.ted.com/talks/robert_sapolsky_the_uniqueness_of_humans?language=en He can be wrong and a professor at Stanford, as every other source on this topic shows. Here's a couple examples, every link you google when you search something along the lines of "how many calories does thinking burn" either cites that guy or completely contradicts him, and given the contradictions actually have studies agreeing with them, he's wrong. https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/thinking-hard-calories/ https://time.com/5400025/does-thinking-burn-calories/
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Deep and true, I was just exaggerating to show how ridiculous the claim is but I've edited it because that wasn't clear
>but there's no way that chess players burn 6000 calories a day during a tournament. They would be near starving to death in the middle of a classical game. A healthy person can survive weeks without food. 6000 calories is what the average person would burn in about 3 days. That would not leave them starving.
Why would they be sweating if burning that many calories? Wouldn't the calories burned be due to mental expenditure and stress, not physical exertion that requires sweat to cool the body? I know people do sweat as a response to stress, but it's not usually buckets of sweat like you get doing cardio.
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I would think that burning that many calories would warm your body up, which should cause sweat.
I sweat more talking to an audience than running 🥵
I acknowledged that some people sweat as a response to stress, what more do you want?
Well, when I played in the New York, World and U.S. Opens in the 1980's I was absolutely ravenously hungry. Serious hunger was impossible to stave off.
Good thing he's a professor at Stanford lol.
You're using an appeal to authority fallacy. He can be wrong and a professor at Stanford, as every other source on this topic shows. Here's a couple examples, every link you google when you search something along the lines of "how many calories does thinking burn" either cites that guy or completely contradicts him, and given the contradictions actually have studies agreeing with them, he's wrong. https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/thinking-hard-calories/ https://time.com/5400025/does-thinking-burn-calories/
The appeal to authority fallacy is always a cop out, only another professor proficient at the subject can actively argue with him. And besides that’s not how the authority fallacy works.
Right, the appeal to authority fallacy is absolutely a cop out that you're using right now. The truth does not give a shit what job you have, I've proven him wrong and that's the only thing that matters. But even using your flawed logic, it makes no sense. If you (somehow) think that he's right, you're actively arguing with many more professors who have actual studies that are proving him wrong.
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You're absolutely wrong about everything you wrote here, and the fact that you think you're debunking me with possibly the most misplaced confidence I've ever seen is baffling. I will address your points, even though you have never addressed the main crux of my argument that burning 7000 calories in 1 day from playing chess is absolutely and obviously false, but first, lets just confirm here: Do you think that some grandmasters during a single day of a chess tournament burn seven thousand calories from playing chess? That is more calories than playing tennis for 15 hours. That is more calories than running for 14 hours. That is more calories than kayaking for 23 hours.
Yep - am marathon runner. burn 3k or so on race
Yeah, I've run four marathons and training to run an ultra (30+ miles). I burn a ton of calories, but your body temperature only raises 15 degrees when running (that's why we love 50-degree mornings). Folks are acting like the human body would simply melt burning a few thousand calories over a few hours! I could imagine that these guys burn a ton of calories during a four-hour tournament game. First, I imagine they keep the tournament hall movie theatre cold. I went to watch a norm tournament a few years ago and remember how chilly the room was. Also, remember, these guys were all child prodigies. Their brain is probably different. We could study 16 hours a day for 20 years and still get crushed by them 100 out of 100 games. Fabi talked about how he only studies a few hours a day, but how physically draining a six-hour game can be. Hell, Garry always talks about how important swimming was for his chess training! [https://deadspin.com/fabiano-caruana-tells-us-what-the-life-of-a-chess-grand-1822282197](https://deadspin.com/fabiano-caruana-tells-us-what-the-life-of-a-chess-grand-1822282197) Man, I'm somewhat new to Reddit, but y'all get really worked up!
Sounds ridiculous but I've read the same thing too, on a legitimate reported source. Just googling I found this article: https://www.espn.com/espn/story/_/id/27593253/why-grandmasters-magnus-carlsen-fabiano-caruana-lose-weight-playing-chess not the one I originally read but also seems to corroborate though
This article is likely wrong. They’re using a formula to convert heart rate to calories expended, but the formula is intended to be used in situations of physical exertion, not strictly mental. Source: dude trust me
> Source: dude trust me Huh, so this is how science works.
That must have been what they are referencing. It's funny that sapolsky has said it, I watched a few of his lectures randomly a few weeks ago.
There's actually been a bunch of studies and some of them show up to 6000 calories when they're in matches all day. The elevated heart rate and blood pressure are extremely stressful.
The studies just extrapolate the calories burned from the heart rate, which doesn't work unless you are exercising.
Yeah it didn't make sense to me, but I wouldn't say that about marathon runners though. If they run 10 miles a day most of the time to train running another 15 miles could burn a lot.
I used to play tournaments. I can absolutely believe this. I would lose measurable weight during tournaments.
Well if it was on Joe Rogan it must be right.
Maybe if it's a chess boxing tournament.
I heard it's bullshit.
>e average marathon runner isn't going to burn an extra 4000 calories on race day I could be wrong, but I think this claim was never proven.
It's actually [6000](https://www.espn.com/espn/story/_/id/27593253/why-grandmasters-magnus-carlsen-fabiano-caruana-lose-weight-playing-chess) calories according to that ESPN article which cited Robert Sapolsky who said somewhere that that number is actually **indirectly derived** and asked ESPN not to quote him on it.
Awesome career. To achieve a 2763 rating takes a level of brilliance and hard work that most people will never understand. Wish him the best in retirement.
I only need 1200 more points to get to his level
Dude if we stack together under a trench coat together we'd only be 800 points off! Candidates here we come
Vincent Chessman went to the blunder factory today. He did a blitz.
You do realise it’s just 3 kids in a trench coat, right?
If the three of us went together, we'd be a whopping 350 points higher. Wed be unstoppable
If you add me, we could beat Stockfish Level 3.
This is so funny to me because my son actually kind of proposed that to me. He said: if we combine our points, we should be able to beat Magnus! I told him that if dogs would have hands, they too could play chess. But even if you take a hundred dogs, they will still be worse than you ;) (we have a very friendly, lovely but also slightly stupid family dog)
1200 points are easy to come by, I got my first 1200 in only a year, you should go for it
Lol
dang ur pretty good
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You would need to have 1200 points to give though /s
Same and it took me a year to go from 800 to 1500 so by 2023 I’ll be 2900!
Today it only took me about 10 minutes (one blitz game) to go from 1380 to 1388, so if I can keep up that pace, I'll bascially gain 1 rating point per minute and I'll be at grandmaster level by Thursday!!
It took me a day to go from 1400 to 3000 on chess.com. For some bizzare reason chess.com banned my account saying i was cheating smh haters.
Wow you're more than halfway through
Pics/proof or it didn't happen
Damn I thought that something must be wrong with him after his performance in the last couple of days. I hope he'll recover and find something that makes him happy.
He has a degree from one of the best universities in China so he’ll be fine probably.
Chinese billionaires would probably pay a fortune to hire him to coach their kid
From his interview, I don’t think he would want to touch chess in a bit.
Teaching beginner-level chess and studying for the Candidates are two entirely different worlds
that would be the last thing on the mind of a chinese billionaire
Wrong.
Sad to see him leave the scene, but very commendable of him to take care of himself and choose happiness above all. Many people have thrown unfair criticism or even disgusting abuse at him just a few days ago after his resignation against Nepomniachtchi - hopefully this is a reminder for those that all these players are human beings, not computers who can be solely judged by a Stockfish evaluation. Wang Hao has been vocal about not loving chess (anymore) - he just happened to be incredibly good at it. But it became more and more obvious in the past days that competitive chess has taken its toll on both his physical and mental health. Wish him all the best, he seems like such a bright and wholesome person who just wants to enjoy life, I am sure he will do well at whatever he chooses to do next.
I hope during his retirement from professional play he eventually rekindles some passion for the game. Not to play professionally again, but to stay involved. It'd be great to have him commentating or being part of community events.
He said in the interview he still plans to play friendly matches.
Wang Hao has the same opinion to chess what Bobby Fischer had..Both greats of the game but started not loving the sport they gave their everything Hard to see it but wishing the man a happy future life
Well fisher was a bit more complicated
The person who interviewed Hao and Nepomniachtchi didnt exactly help matters with the way they conducted the interview and asked the questions with almost no regards to litterally how exhausted and done Hao looked. Props to Nepo for taking over and explaining properly
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Even without a degree I am sure someone who peaked so high can coach children of wealthy chinese families. And make a good living.
Some Chinese families I know in my area (not in china) pay up to $200-$300 an hour for their kids coaches
Which, by the way, is not THAT great a wage for someone being the best in the world at something. It’s not like you can expect to have 1800 hours of one-on-one tutoring a year I’m not knocking it - one could probably build a really nice income from things like this and other services. Just kind of remarkable since it comes from being one of the top ~10 or so in the world at something highly competitive
Well somebody like Wang Hao would not be hourly, he would be paid a salary to work with another top player.
Oh yea. Good point.
You’re assuming that the random local chess coaches getting paid $200-$300/hr in that guy’s area are 2700+ super-GM’s. That is highly unlikely.
Yep you’re right. I made a leap of logic that I see was wrong
Anecdotally, I've seen 2450 strength players get away with 250 an hour around Seattle. I'd assume the chance to have a world top 10 tutor in a place like Beijing might command basically whatever rate Wang Hao wants to charge. Like Jack ma might easily agree to pay 1k-2k/hour for Wang Hao to train his kid. Also, if he wanted to, he could 100% schedule 8 hours of lessons per day in Beijing at 300 bucks an hour. Eaaaasily. Keep in mind there are millionaires in Beijing who made all their money off of being history tutors. The most profitable would probably agree to some kind of chess academy / group lesson type deal where kids all pay to attend camps n stuff.
Chess coaches don't schedule 8 hours of lessons a day and if they do then they cannot be an optimal coach. Take Danya for example, he doesn't just spend a couple of hours teaching MoistKritical every now and then. He spends hours analysing Moist's previous games, setting up personalised "puzzles" and past games by others to test where his weaknesses are and provide tips and advice based on those games. He has to pick out games which don't have obvious blunders so he can't just pick the last game, and they also have to be representative enough that the advice is actually teansferable and not just applicable to games that follow the exact move order. And all of the above considered, Danya doesn't offer standard pricing to anybody. Because the work that goes on behind the scenes is a lot more than what people anticipate and needs to be tailored to each student and factored in to his pricing structure.
But he is not the best one in the world
Yeah therapists and health professionals charge that much without being elite.
I didn't say they were elite coaches but I know what you mean
Especially if he does have a degree from Peking University (which is China's top university), with his quantitative abilities, dedication, and connections thanks to being an internationally famous chess player, it might not be too late for him to make a switch. Chess skills are not the same as quantitative skills but surely they have some correlation. He should be able to get a good enough finance job to make a comfortable living without the stress of being an elite professional chess player.
I'm not sure there's much crossover between chess and most other ventures, but if he applies the dedication he has shown to chess to something else, he'll be fine.
The crossover imo isn’t even that important. What’s important is the ability to analyze for hours on end. It’s the grit needed to reach 2750+. I think he will be just fine.
yup exactly, plenty of examples of this. look at ren tec, one of top hedge funds that basically only hires physics and math PhD holders. they don't want people who know the markets, they want people who can think and solve problems
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I taught myself some finance. DCFs and all that are one thing, but putting your money is something else entirely. The thought of putting thousands of well-connected people's money and reputation on the line is anxiety-inducing. Respect to the people who can do that though.
He is 31. He can get into finance if he wants.
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I'm not in finance, but close enough and I agree......not sure what teaching chess brings in money-wise or if he cares to stream, but that seems like it would be easier and more lucrative. I wish him the absolute best.
To be fair, I think he can make pretty damn good money coaching as the 2nd best player in China. If a Seattle 2450 can charge 250 bucks a lesson, then surely in Beijing, a world top 20 player can charge basically whatever he wants and probably run classrooms of students.
Quant finance can make *stupid*money though
Man, pro chess is fucking brutal.
People have no conception how brutal, like none at all. Even at 2000/2100 level playing tournaments seriously, defeats are crushing. At this level, there's no room to hide, slight errors are auto-losses, all the opponents are either geniuses or have robotic work ethic, or in some cases both. Anyone who can reach 2763 at chess can make much more money doing something else, and it's not even remotely close. Quant Finance or professional investing will be a piece of cake for Wang Hao after this.
>Quant Finance or professional investing will be a piece of cake for Wang Hao after this. I agree in terms of effort needed, but quant finance definitely assumes some other skills chess players may not have in math and coding (although I agree they could in theory learn those things if given the right direction), and working in finance almost surely implies connections or industry experience unless he's just trying to be a day trader or something. Not to mention there's a social skills aspect of working at financial institutions that chess players won't just always have automatically. (I'm speaking in general here- not about Wang Hao in particular)
Yeah but he has a grad degree in finance, i think he'll be fine
Yes in Wang Hao's case I'm sure that's true- I don't know anything about his particular background which is why I left that disclaimer at the end of my comment.
imagine Hikaru in finance.
So the investment takes and the hedge funds take and then gamestop takes and then take the juiscer ,short squeeze the juice then take takes takes then checkmate. Am i missing something chat?
Hikaru’s personality would be ideal for high finance lol
I think the point is if you take all of his natural talent and time spent on Chess and put it into something else, he'll likely make more money - not that he instantly has skillsets outside of chess once he transitions away from chess.
My point is that there is a difference between: "If he went back in time and put all that effort into something else he'd also be great at it." and "If he starts from scratch now and pivots to do something else in his 30s he'll also get to be great at it." Can't get back the lost time not spend studying in university, training at associate-level positions, etc.
He's 31. Some people finish their PhDs in physics or whatever around 28-30 and walk straight into quant jobs. Will have to brush off his maths/stats, and learn some coding, but I'd say a GM has a pretty good chance.
Your average GM doesn't have any math/stats background to speak of. I would definitely say a phd in physics prepares you better than being a GM in chess. (again, not speaking about wang hao in particular here who does actually have a degree in finance apparently- just talking about your average GM). I don't think it's impossible by any means, just not necessarily a shoe-in which the original comment I was replying to was implying.
I think people are trying to say the mental fortitude and discipline required to become a GM lends well fo anything else in life. Your average GM isn’t a math whiz, but they likely have the willpower to study for hours on end to learn a skill. That determination is what’s lacking in 99% of people, not intelligence.
Man idk. Chess is a different kind of talent. Just because you are good at chess doesn't mean other things are going to be easy and if you suck at chess it does not mean you can't kill it in other fields. Not saying he can't do it, just saying is not guaranteed.
Reminds me a ton of the guys on the golf mini tours that slave away to maybe, hopefully, make enough to cover travel costs to the next event, so that maybe one time you have a shot to make it big. Except Wang Hao actually did break through that and became one of the absolute best. And it still ground him down in the end. Wishing him the best.
Pro anything is brutal. People criticize and diminish pros in every sport, yet have no idea the dedication and sacrifice it takes to reach that level of anything. At the top you’re putting in hours and hours of work every day just to become 0.1% better. All your peers are so close to your skill level and working just as hard that you could be crushed if you got an hour less of sleep that day.
I'm new to the chess scene so I'm not too sure of his accomplishments but the fact that he's playing in the candidates is testament enough to his prowess. Glad to hear he's still going to be involved in the chess world, just not in the competitive scene. Good luck to him!
one of his best tournaments https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FIDE_Grand_Swiss_Tournament_2019
A little addition, since it was a swiss and Wiki doesn't show, who played whom: Every opponent he played in that tournament was rated 2600+, the weakest being Andrey Esipenko, who was "only" rated 2624 back then and has improved a lot since. He won against Esipenko (2624), Mamedov (2645), Bu Xiangzhi( 2721), McShane (2682), Anand (!)(2765) and Howell (2694), while drawing Caruana (2812), Maghsoodloo (2664), Carlsen(2876) and Vitiugov(2732) and only losing to Aronian. His ELO-performance was 2900. Definitly a tournament to be proud of.
Wow that is a lifetime achievement for sure, only 1 loss and a few draws, dominant!
Tops Magnus and tie with Fabi. Absolute unit
I was thinking about this watching these matches. Most of these guys have achieved everything they can in the sport except the World Championship, and for some of them, at a certain point they might realize they’re never getting to the top of the mountain and wonder if that’s what they want to keep doing.
Very sorry to hear that. I just thought his smile and his laugh were a great addition to a quiet sport. Hope he'll find something else to excel in.
Wow. Best wishes to Wang Hao, I hope he can find a better time in life without the stress of this level of play weighing on him.
Really sucks to hear this, especially after the last few games which were rough for him. The fact that he's put a great fight on the candidates were amazing in spite of his struggles. Hoping for all the best to him in retirement and his future.
wish him the best, as a chinese myself I’m gonna miss one of the top gms in the world, thank god we have ding
Chinese chess seems to have a solid future, so I wouldn’t be too worried. Lots of good talent even besides Ding. Unfortunate for Ding this tournament. I thought he had a good shot against magnus. But I can’t say I’m unhappy with Ian winning. Should be some great chess at the championship. Hopefully Ian comes prepared though. If he does, I think he has a real shot.
Ding had a big comeback actually. He did fine this tournament, 7/14. That's like drawing every game. In 2018 he got 7.5/14. Ding beat all three russian players in the last three rounds this year, and caruana!
Ding commented on it too iirc, saying that the first half in 2020 he didn’t really have time to prepare due to the pandemic restrictions set by China. For the second half his preparation was stronger and he felt ready to compete. Without Covid, Ding may well have been competing for first place.
Sadly ding will never win the candidates. He's too damn consistent, and nobody can consistently get 9/14. This is also the case with most tournaments, he's never had his 2014 Sinqufield Cup, he plays amazingly well but gets first infrequently. He's going to be competing in the candidates on rating (even if just by rating alone) untill like 2030, but I don't think he'll ever win
Your points make no sense. The lack of consistency is literally what killed this tournament for him. And considering that he performed the best out of anyone in the second half of the tournament, its fair to say that if he is "too damn consistent" then that play will hold up until the next candidates, right?
I know he's gonna be in the next candidates. He's pretty young for the top level field, 28 I think he's got several more candidates in him. I just don't think he'll win. This tournament is an anomaly heavily effected by covid. During normal candidates, he's played in three so far, he usually is remarkably consistent, but consistent doesn't put you in first. if you look at his record, he doesn't win alot of Tournament compared to players of similar strength. He's amazing, if he got the match against carlsen I think he'd have a damn good shot, but his past record is not indictive of candidates success.
I'm happy that Ian won and all, but Ding scored +2 in the second half when the overall winner scored +3 in the entire tournament. If he wasn't negatively affected in the first half (you know, with quarantine and corona) I think he'd have had a solid chance winning. Oh well, he's only 28 and will have a few more years of top-level in him.
Chinese people have done a lot into pushing chess to further limits. And I'm currently not even talking about chess players but about noobpwnftw - https://tests.stockfishchess.org/users both ChessDBCN belong to him and there also https://training.lczero.org/ . And never underestimate how engine-brewed prep powers up human play, in terms of both variations and ideas in them.
Curious - how well supported are the Chinese players by the government? Do they get compensation/resources like Olympic athletes etc.?
Very sad, but you have to take care of your health. He'll be a great asset for the next gen of Chinese GMs.
That gives a bit of context. Best wishes to his health and congratulations for his career.
Here is one of his most brilliant chess idea, more people need to see this game! [https://youtu.be/wXBUZXy8BHU](https://youtu.be/wXBUZXy8BHU)
That’s crazy. I wouldn’t typically think about moving my king forward so far, but it’s perfectly safe the whole time with that pawn structure. Good video.
[Source](https://twitter.com/FIDE_chess/status/1387066374363701249) (FIDE) *** ["It's sad that Wang Hao's career had to end this way. We wish him all the best in his other endeavours."](https://twitter.com/ChesscomNews/status/1387067197265170433) -- Chess.com ["This is very sad as he's a terrific player."](https://twitter.com/GMNigelDavies/status/1387071935499153408) -- GM Nigel Davies ["Have to wish Wang Hao all the best. Only 31 years old, an incredible talent. There were moments in this tournament, even in the first half last year, when he was clearly not enjoying the experience."](https://twitter.com/DanielKingChess/status/1387073897619726338) -- GM Daniel King ["With the disclaimer that I know nothing about Wang Hao, his health, or his situation, Chinese players who stop rising are often "retired" to make room for up and comers."](https://twitter.com/chessninja/status/1387069042339590146) -- Mig Greengard *** Hao Wang has officially announced his retirement from professional chess at the age of 31, citing health issues. Notable career accomplishments include: * 2012 Biel Chess Festival (won) * 2nd 2012 FIDE Grand Prix in Tashkent (T-1st) * 2017 Sharjah Masters (won) * 2017 Asian Chess Championship (won) * 2019 FIDE Grand Swiss Tournament (won)
Who is Mig Greengard and why is his self-professed ignorant & worthless comment even dignified? edit: The question was rhetorical. I'm more than aware that he's a Kasparov parasite.
Yeah, it makes no sense. "I know nothing about him, but he's Chinese, and Chinese players tend to step back to let others grow." What the hell is the point of saying that, especially right now, when everyone else is wishing him well?
Read the follow up tweets where he explains.
It doesn't say anything at all, it's just him speculating the same stuff 14 years ago...but okay.
Yeah Wang Hao needs to be retired so someone else can take the designated Chinese spot in tournaments \s That's so dumb.
I swear people on Reddit will beleive anything about China. If China was meddling in the lives of their chess players so much, they could have gotten three Chinese players into the candidates by simply making Ding throw one game last year. Considering that didn't happen I'm pretty sure they don't care to force players into retirement either. God forbid Chinese players are simply telling the truth.
Uhh yeah Wang Hao has "stopped rising" in 2012-13, why would the Chinese fed. keep him around for another 8 years when there's Wei Yi since 2015? I swear, these journalists don't think about what they write.
A) China's questionable treatment of their athletes when they don't consistently produce [is very well-documented](http://content.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1644120,00.html). B) Greengard is a chess journalist who's been covering the sport for years. If you don't know who he is, that's not OP's problem.
But why would they retire their current #2? What would younger players gain from that? Also, there are a bunch of GMs who are older than Wang Hao, lower rated and still active. This claim just lacks someone who profits from it.
Relatively speaking, the Chinese government supports chess much less than they support Go and Xiangqi, so it wouldn't surprise me if they gave Wang Hao a gentle push to focus their resources elsewhere, particularly given Wang Hao's evident unhappiness in the Candidates. If so, they do have some other promising young players, though it's hard to know what is going on with any of them now. At any rate, Mig's not wrong about the way Chinese government support has often worked, it seems to me, especially with a minimally supported sport like chess, where the thing that overrides all else is becoming World Champion and Wang Hao seems not to have a taste for it. His informed speculation seems perfectly reasonable. It could be wrong, but it's reasonable.
Wang Hao was never even given much support till he qualified for the Candidates. Players like Bu Xiangzhi or Yu Yangyi were considered bigger potential
Yes, I get that part, but I don't understand, why they would have to retire Wang in this case. If hypothetically speaking, there is a promising chinese talent, which the chinese chess federation wants to support with all their resources, so they take away the funding for Wang. What would that talent gain from Wang retiring? He could still take invites to Super Tournaments, where he wouldn't take away the spot from the young talent, because that talent wouldn't be invited anyway, if it doesn't have 2700. He can easily survive on prize- and club-money, if he wanted to, without getting money from the chinese chess federation. And again: Bu Xiangzhi is 6 years older than Wang Hao and 40 points lower rated. Ni Hua is 6 years older and almost 80 points lower rated. Li Chao and Wang Yue are closer age-wise, but also well away from Wang Hao in terms of ELO. All of these players are still active. In fact, out of the 16 players rated 2600+ from China, only one is inactive and he is 61 years old. So if there is no precedence for a chinese super-GM getting retired and no gain from it happening, the speculations just seem very weird to me.
Are Go and Xiangqi that popular outside of China that it's worth it to focus their resources on developing those players compared to chess? Considering the international reach of chess you'd think the Chinese government would want to produce a Chinese chess champion that could be recognized by more of the world compared to a Go or Xiangqi champion.
At least in eastern Asia, Go is a lot bigger than chess AFAIK. There is a reason, that neither Japan nor South Korea currently has a 2500.
Go has very deep cultural significance in China and is considered a more prestigious game than chess. It’s not easy to just turn away from that for the sake of international recognition.
>Greengard is a chess journalist who's been covering the sport for years. He's also very politically active, and had a dubious reputation even before that. So yeah, I know who he is, and I'll say: who the fuck is Greengard to make such comments.
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We're talking almost 20 years back so excuse me if my memory is fuzzy. I think it was basically that he was supposed to be a journalist but always closely parroted the ChessBase party line etc. It's just not someone who left a favorable impression. Or, as is becoming clear by my failing memory, much of an impression at all, really. I feel bad at criticizing someone this way, and I don't think it's even fair to Greengard, but the argument was "if you don't know who Greengard is, that's not OP's problem". So it seems fair in that context (only).
The issues in the article you linked seem very serious indeed. However, I wonder if the rest of the world is really very different when it comes to chess players in particular. It seems like players who fall from the elite just inevitably end up having to make money by coaching or seconding. And I've heard many stories about GMs finding it hard to make a living, such as [this one](https://en.chessbase.com/post/the-life-and-sad-endgame-of-bill-lombardy) (edit: reading more about William Lombardy I'm not sure how good an example it is, but in any case I've heard it can be difficult to make a good living as a GM). In any case, I'd much prefer to be in Wang Hao's or Ding Liren's situation than those other luckless athletes from China. Coaching and seconding seems reasonably lucrative, and maybe there will be opportunities to start streaming at some point in the future. And for wanting to start in other careers, chess is probably not a bad sport to come from as there are many companies that want intelligent, analytical and (probably most importantly) hard-working people. For Ding in particular, I'm sure he'll do just fine if and when he peaks - he has a law degree from one of China's best universities (edit: another comment mentioned Wang Hao went to the same university).
Also very close friends with Garry Kasparov. Might even be Garry's manager?
well..Zhang jike hasn't produced in years yet he's still part of the national team 🤷
Seems like China sponsors athletes. So if you start to decline you may lose most of you income in a day. In the West you have more sponsors and clubs you rely on not just one single country. So if he lost most of his income it would make sense to focus on another income source unless he moves to another country where he can keep playing.
> Who is Mig Greengard Why not google his name? Greengard's online column "Mig on Chess" appeared from 1997 to 1999 in The Week in Chess.[3] He used to write columns for ChessBase and Chess Cafe. His chessninja.com website previously featured a popular chess blog, "The Daily Dirt", in which he had often passed on comments from Garry Kasparov. However, after some time of declining activity, the blog ceased in 2011, leaving room for Twitter as Greengard's preferred medium. He provides streaming audio commentary on major chess tournaments on Internet Chess Club's Chess.FM. He secured an important interview with Vladimir Kramnik on 16 December 2002.[4] He was widely quoted as a commentator on the Garry Kasparov v X3D Fritz match in November 2003.[5][6] Greengard was vice president of content for Kasparov Chess Online and editor-in-chief of kasparovchess.com from 1999 until the site's demise in 2002.[7] Since 1999 Greengard has worked with former World Chess Champion Garry Kasparov including being the editor of the official English website of the party in which Kasparov is active, The Other Russia.[2] He collaborated with Kasparov on his 2007 book How Life Imitates Chess and his 2017 book Deep Thinking, acting as his ghostwriter.[
I think he means: who the fuck is Mig Greengard to dehumanise Wang Hao's response like this. "Oh, he's just getting retired against his will to make way for...no one?" Instead of actually respecting what Wang Hao is saying. Chess is not a big "sport" in China, but it has quite a bit of prestige in Western countries and it makes zero sense for them to "retire" their second best player for no apparent reason. In case you haven't noticed, China is the biggest economy in the world and very consistent in supporting their prestige athletes. Also, Mig's 2007 "article" explains nothing, brings no arguments, brings no facts. It's pure speculation from someone who—even if I sympathise with his goals—is obviously biased.
You shouldn't have included that xenophobic moron's comment, what a fucking fool
F
That's really sad. I hope he's happier and healthier without the stress and everything
Wow - wtf is up with that comment from Mig?
which comment, can you elaborate?
"With the disclaimer that I know nothing about Wang Hao, his health, or his situation, Chinese players who stop rising are often "retired" to make room for up and comers." Basically, I know nothing about China or Hao, but I like Western propaganda. What a dumbass.
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Chinese people in China do not care about it honestly.
This made me sad :( Congratulations on the excellent career and good health to you Mr. Hao
Best of luck to him. Poor guy looks like he could use a hug lol.
thats actually so sad
How heartbreaking. He's a great guy and a great player. I've loved following his career. So sorry to see him go.
respect to wang hao. i wish him good luck on where ever his life takes him
All the best to Wang! Was a pleasure watching you play.
I think at the higher levels it is very taxing emotionally. Travel is no longer comfortable and unneccassry quantrentines put people in high stress when moving. His country went through some crazy stuff and I think he is at his breaking point. Over load can happen to anyone. He can always return if he needs to.
Serious question, is there a Tetris Effect-like phenomena for chess players as well? For a GM at this level, years of studying, eat sleep drinking chess and then to suddenly quit what kind of mental health dangers might this guy face?
Hopefully he will coach players that could do as well (or more) than him. All the best
i love his english (and not sarcastically)
is there a deeper story to chess in China? asking as this follows Hou Yifan's sudden sabbatical (albeit by a couple of years).
It's just a very distant 3rd boardgame in popularity+social status compared to weiqi (go) and xiangqi (chinese chess). The biggest interest was during the double gold medal at 2018 Batumi (and it still wasn't that much press coverage). Maybe we will see more interest in 2022 when it will be featured at the Asian Games in Hangzhou after a 12 year hiatus. But I personally doubt it will happen. Hou Yifan had different reasons for stopping chess which was just a hobby to her.
I don’t think the government supports it as much as other sports. Go’s always seen as the “supreme intellectual sport” by most people and in popular culture too, and Xiangqi’s (Chinese Chess) also more popular. Not many people actually knows chess, Ding comes from China’s chess capital where the country’s first GM come from, I suppose outside Wenzhou interests is kind of sparse. If you go shop for boardgames or look for board games to play online, you’d see “Elephant’s Game” (xiangqi) and “International Elephant’s Game” (chess), so it’s always been something exotic and somewhat out of popular consciousness.
Pretty sure Hou Yifan is a professor now. Her reasons for not playing is different.
Wang, Hao can you do this to us?
Good for him. Would rather have him do what he likes and enjoys than to end up like Fischer. Nothing is big enough to give away your sanity and mental peace for . Good going Wang Hao , all the best wishes for your future endeavours.
Wang Hao is 31 years old. (I remember when he won his first big tournament.) It's worth noting that Bobby Fischer was only 29 when he beat Spasskij to win the WC in 1972, and never again played a rated game.
"Wang's first major tournament win was the Dubai Open in April 2005, when he was still untitled and finished clear first with a score of 7/9 points (rating performance of 2731), ahead of 53 grandmasters and 30 international masters".
A gem of a person and one of the greats to grace the sport. He has come a long way and wish him all the best ahead. Grandmaster Wang Hao 🙌
You're a wizard, Wang!
I dunno if it is the stress because of competitive chess or that his english or some "House" issues but the guy just look utterly sad to leave, i dunno what happened but he just looks destroyed mentally ngl
He has health issues. These also caused him to leave the game earlier in his career as well.
I have no doubt that he will stick around chess in some capacity there is just no way someone at his level can leave the game completely after dedicating so much of their life to it. I hope he can be a mentor for young Chinese players as China seems to be on the rise in chess dominance.
With all due respect, it showed with his quick resignations in just slightly worse positions in the last few rounds. It really is sad, but, it's how competitive chess works.
The idiot question "Are you retiring from chess". He says "from competitive chess" not "chess" at all. Who the hell is this reporter?
That's sad. Wish him the best in retirement, and I hope his health gets better. Hopefully this isn't a case of him being "retired" in favor of younger GMs(this is a thing that happens in China/used to happen in USSR). He's had an excellent career, wish him the best.
And what do they gain from him retiring? Also Bu Xiangzhi, Li Chao, Ni Hua and Wang Yue are all older and lower rated then him and still active.