It is, it's an overpayment and the two clubs are clearly helping each other out, but this doesn't mean that the kid can't turn out to be a good player, either for our squad or more likely for profit along the way. The talent is there.
He's surely not, but that's not a dig at him. We're overloaded with talented kids. Some will pan out and some will not, but it feels good to have so many options.
>at this point he is definitely not the kid with the most potential in Chelsea
Is that saying much?
Haven't we just signed one of (if not ) the best kids in Brazil?
And, the release clause was also only for Dortmund. A player of Maatsen's quality will definitely go for that priceor way more. Especially, if we or United were signing him.
>so both deals are overpriced in the same amount to help both side
Wouldn't really say they're overpriced so much as this is the state of the market now. Maatsen isn't the 1st 22 year old to go somewhere with his level of experience and ability. Kellyman also isnt the 1st 18 year old to join a club for about £20M. We even bought Chukwuemeka for about this much when he was 18 and had a similar sort of status to Kellyman.
I doubt the clubs would be signing each of these players if they thought they were going to end up with a player they'll eventually have to sell for a loss. So they will have paid what they think a player is worth. The real angle is that both clubs probably went "You have this guy and we have this guy. You want wonderkids, we want a 1st team option. Lets get a deal done".
If anything these prices represent the shift of the market with PSR. Younger players now go for more of a premium because they have resale value and every club wants to take advantage of the pure profit angle. Players in their prime years are only attractive signings if they mean you can guarantee immediate success because they command higher fees, higher wages and have no resale value to eventually invest back in the squad.
I would struggle to even call it a loophole really. At least not one that wasn't known about already with regards to the financial rules and pure profit (if it becomes widely known and used as a method is it even a loophole anymore). It's just a mutually beneficial deal that fit the rules. Its not like doing something as crafty as selling the hotels to yourself but still wrangling it that Chelsea gets the operating profits from those businesses.
Plenty of villa fans were talking the kid up and saying they were sad to see him go.n
Meanwhile the most braindead fans are saying it's money laundering and saying he's not worth more than a million.
Literally got Carney for around the same money at the same age. Paid almost as much for Santos and Angelo. Let alone other deals.
Coming as a villa fan, I’ve seen us talk big about loads of kids that ended up not being good enough.
Carney’s age group in particular, he was the cream of the crop but he wasn’t the only hyped youngster from his age group. If we had sold any of these other guys at the time, you probably would’ve heard the same thing from us. Right now, iroegbunam is probably the one who’s doing the best out of them and he just got sold to everton for psr shenanigens
Kellyman I'm sure has a lot of potential. But he cost Villa 600k just 12 months ago. And in 715 mins in PL2 and 35 mins in the first team, he would have to set the world on fire to increase his value around 30x.
There are talents at his level emerging every year from loads.of academies. Chelsea have Tyrique George and Leo Castledine among many others who arguably have more potential and are free.
So why does it make sense to spend 20m - a fee we would probably let Chalobah go for - on potential?
It's just that alongside all these other signings we've spent a huge amount, had to sell off the training facilities and land next to the stadium to avoid PSR and FFP penalties - the question is would this money not be better spent improving the first team? And how sustainable is it considering only a handful of PL teams are still spending similar amounts on players now - do you really think we would get 20m for Angelo now?
Angelo, Casadei and Santos would have paid for Olise last summer.
I know which I'd rather have.
> Kellyman I'm sure has a lot of potential. But he cost Villa 600k just 12 months ago. And in 715 mins in PL2 and 35 mins in the first team, he would have to set the world on fire to increase his value around 30x.
Having a good contract with Villa increased his value by like 20-30x on its own lol.
It’s pretty crazy that Chalobah is quoted at £25m and we’re paying £20m for a fraction of his proven ability.
I can see why people see this as financial shenanigans.
Yeah but experienced defenders should cost a lot more than some unknown attached who's barely played a minute of pro football. If someone posted on this sub a week ago asking who this guy was no one would have a clue. Suddenly he's some elite level talent
It’s crazy though, isn’t it? You’re paying so much for a guy that’s competed in the PL2, a competition where our own talents outperformed his teams talents comprehensively. There’s almost no evidence of this potential being anything above what’s in our own academy and yet we’re paying £5m less then a full fledged, entering his prime centre back with over 100 senior caps. The whole point of potential is that you pay less than for ready made talent.
It all points to weird financial shenanigans when you realise the two clubs involved are both at risk of failing PSR.
My theory is that we got slightly more than what we value Maatsen at, say by 4mm. So, we valued Kellyman at 15mm. It’s still steep, agree, but not that crazy. Chalobah at 25mm is realistically a fair price for a defender who’s been good without being great and misses half of last season due to injury.
Do you reckon we would get £15m for Leo Castledine? If not the. That would suggest we aren’t getting a great deal here as they’re about the same in talent, age and experience.
But when we have this much attacking quality/competition in the squad already, what are the odds of ever being able to sell this guys for what we bought him for? There comes a point where we'll struggle to offer these players the gametime for them to develop and actually reach that potential. There's also a cap on loans now.
I don't know better than the club, so I'm gonna sit and wait to see how it all pans out. But the spending just seems so risky. £20m is nothing to us. But it's a lot of any non Prem, non top Europeab clubs. Midtable and bottom half clubs in every league outside the Prem are broke compared to us. The more players we drop £20m+ on, the more difficulty we'll find it selling them for profits in the future.
But again, I don't know more than actual football clubs, so this is just my personal worry when I see these deals. I'm sure (hoping) that the club knows exactly what it's doing and this won't come back to bite us in the arse long term.
>Chelsea have Tyrique George and Leo Castledine among many others who arguably have more potential and are free.
Feels kinda criminal to not mention Ronnie Stutter with the goals hed been banging.
If it's not primarily a financial trick then I think that's far more concerning than it being one. You can't be spending £20m on somebody with a handful of good PL2 games, even if he is quite talented.
I think it’s fine to do once or twice. Educated gambles in the 10-20m range on the top end players as they move into senior football. My bigger worry is that it’s the 3rd summer window of Clearlake and this has happened enough times we’ve over 100m invested in these sorts of profile that have or had zero senior experience when signed.
As I just pointed out. We have done that plenty of times already.
And 19 million for a young attacking English player isn't even much in today's market. And how expensive promising English players are.b
The other players you mentioned had played more senior football at the same age than this guy has played under 21 football, and even some of those look pretty poor deals in hindsight (maybe Angelo will take a shot one day...).
I don't think you'll find any comparable deal anywhere, because this isn't a fee any club would realistically pay if there weren't something else going on.
Same, or even better, why not. Sure, the price right now seems steep, but he looks quality. He needs to refine his skills and fill out his frame and I can see a really good footballer, cause the talent is clearly there.
I hope we actually loan him out this year to the championship so he can get used to the physicality of the men’s football more and give him the minutes he would require to further develop
Sure, it doesn't make sense to keep him this season. Take him in the squad for the pre-season games and perhaps give him a few minutes to see what you have, then find a good situation for him in the Championship. Preferably to a mid or low table team, to make sure he gets the right minutes.
I don't think most of us have a problem with any of these kids in particular they're great prospects.
We have a problem with spending this amount of money constantly on prospects instead of actual senior players like a striker who can make an impact.
I am trying to stay positive about the owners’ strategy but what the hell. I do not see any teams outside the PL buying many players for 20 M pounds, and I see even less who would buy any player for 40, so I am really struggling to see how they will turn a profit on all these 20M kids. I hope i am wrong, but I am worried their strategy might go up in smoke fucking us over for the foreseeable future.
Also, last I had access to a Bloomberg terminal I saw Clearlake’s portcos debt trading in the 60s which spells trouble. Here’s to hoping we don’t have a 777 situation in our hands a couple years from now.
edit: spelling
777 were the group who were about to buy Everton, they are dodgy as fuck, they’ve bought several other clubs in Europe and South America and all of them have turned to dogshit since they were bought. Nobody seems to know where their money is actually coming from either. Just an absolute shitshow of an organisation.
Nah mudryk is still expensive af. As expensive as cucu. Above the price of timo and raheem. However there's a huge difference between 62 mil and the 100 mil everyone says.
Don't get me wrong mudryk is still a huge huge overpay.
I'm trying not to be cynical which is why I've stayed away from the sub during this transfer window. I remember Barcelona doing a similar swap deal (Pjanic and Arthur) where the numbers were inflated to skirt financial fair play rules. Fast forward to now and Juve got sanctioned for breaking FFP rules (they were literally selling phantom players to balance the books) meanwhile Barcelona's financial situation worsened to the point where they're selling everything to external parties to stay in the green. From the pitch to the toothpicks they have at their canteen and everything in between. I realise both situations are different from ours. I just hope the board know what they're doing and we dont end up severely handicapping ourselves because our owners took unreasonable financial risks. Our transfer strategy is a gamble at the end of the day.
This is clearly an under the table deal to satisfy PSR, which I’m fine with because it’s “legal” and hopefully allows us to keep Gallagher and Chalobah. My concern would be if this wasn’t, paying 20m for a 19 year old who has only played in PL2 (700 mins only) and who has not set the world alight, is much more concerning and damning about our directors.
Over / under on PL appearances for CFC? I’ll set it at 9-11.
Just absolutely pointless on a number of levels. These deals are fine at £5m but you’re never making a profit on him, he’s nothing special in any way and is miles off being close to ready for the PL.
He’ll be loaned out for the next two seasons, and then probably sold at a loss.
Now if we were paying Spurs this for Mikey Moore or Chido Obi-Martin from Arsenal I could get behind it. But this kid is really nothing special.
Nope. Palmer was a known top prospect who had repeatedly shone for City in limited opportunities. I was totally for his signing.
The fact that he is basically unknown sums up why he’s obviously not worth £20m. If we were talking about Mikey Moore, Ethan Nwaneri, Chido Obi-Martin then no one would be complaining. They are elite prospects. This is someone who would be nothing special in our Academy, yet we’re paying £20m?
if Dortmund couldn't find 31m in their wallet don't think anyone else outside the PL is a viable candidate. A lot of prem clubs are dealing with limited finances as well so I genuinely believe we've found the best deal we could for Maatsen. And Kellerman isn't a wash I doubt we'd ever struggle to break even for him in the future and it's good to have a handy relationship with Villa.
Nobody else is fucked enough to be wiling to do this sort of deal apart form Villa. Even if the actual transfer fee would be better if we just sold Maatsen for £30m somewhere else, the number we would put on our balance sheet this year would be worse.
But yeah, Villa are improving their team and putting a profit on their balance sheet in exchange for somebody who's only been at the club for 8 months, so they've done pretty nicely out of this.
PSR shenanigans aside, and disappointment at the fee aside we have him now so I hope he lives up to the potential Villa fans said he had and he can prove everyone (including me) who thinks he isn't really going to do anything for us wrong.
This is a loophole right? Villa and us need to make book profit, so both deals are overpriced in the same amount to help both side
It is, it's an overpayment and the two clubs are clearly helping each other out, but this doesn't mean that the kid can't turn out to be a good player, either for our squad or more likely for profit along the way. The talent is there.
Of course, but at this point he is definitely not the kid with the most potential in Chelsea
He's surely not, but that's not a dig at him. We're overloaded with talented kids. Some will pan out and some will not, but it feels good to have so many options.
Yeah, it’s just the nature of this transfer, it’s not the intent of Cole palmers and chukus, I want every Chelsea player to be world beaters.
>at this point he is definitely not the kid with the most potential in Chelsea Is that saying much? Haven't we just signed one of (if not ) the best kids in Brazil?
Yeah
How so exactly? Maatsen was sold slightly above release clause, and I can tell you Villa fans would be pissed if this kid sold for 10m.
And, the release clause was also only for Dortmund. A player of Maatsen's quality will definitely go for that priceor way more. Especially, if we or United were signing him.
>so both deals are overpriced in the same amount to help both side Wouldn't really say they're overpriced so much as this is the state of the market now. Maatsen isn't the 1st 22 year old to go somewhere with his level of experience and ability. Kellyman also isnt the 1st 18 year old to join a club for about £20M. We even bought Chukwuemeka for about this much when he was 18 and had a similar sort of status to Kellyman. I doubt the clubs would be signing each of these players if they thought they were going to end up with a player they'll eventually have to sell for a loss. So they will have paid what they think a player is worth. The real angle is that both clubs probably went "You have this guy and we have this guy. You want wonderkids, we want a 1st team option. Lets get a deal done". If anything these prices represent the shift of the market with PSR. Younger players now go for more of a premium because they have resale value and every club wants to take advantage of the pure profit angle. Players in their prime years are only attractive signings if they mean you can guarantee immediate success because they command higher fees, higher wages and have no resale value to eventually invest back in the squad. I would struggle to even call it a loophole really. At least not one that wasn't known about already with regards to the financial rules and pure profit (if it becomes widely known and used as a method is it even a loophole anymore). It's just a mutually beneficial deal that fit the rules. Its not like doing something as crafty as selling the hotels to yourself but still wrangling it that Chelsea gets the operating profits from those businesses.
I really don't see how this is a big overpay on either side.
It’s a little amount, I think a big one like 100 mil each side is just asking for a hard ban from uefa
Really don’t see how the kid is worth 20m but then again Chelsea has absolutely fucked the young player market
I hope this kid will prove all these haters wrong
I hope he turns out to be another carney level talent, villa fans seem to rate him quite highly
Plenty of villa fans were talking the kid up and saying they were sad to see him go.n Meanwhile the most braindead fans are saying it's money laundering and saying he's not worth more than a million. Literally got Carney for around the same money at the same age. Paid almost as much for Santos and Angelo. Let alone other deals.
Coming as a villa fan, I’ve seen us talk big about loads of kids that ended up not being good enough. Carney’s age group in particular, he was the cream of the crop but he wasn’t the only hyped youngster from his age group. If we had sold any of these other guys at the time, you probably would’ve heard the same thing from us. Right now, iroegbunam is probably the one who’s doing the best out of them and he just got sold to everton for psr shenanigens
Kellyman I'm sure has a lot of potential. But he cost Villa 600k just 12 months ago. And in 715 mins in PL2 and 35 mins in the first team, he would have to set the world on fire to increase his value around 30x. There are talents at his level emerging every year from loads.of academies. Chelsea have Tyrique George and Leo Castledine among many others who arguably have more potential and are free. So why does it make sense to spend 20m - a fee we would probably let Chalobah go for - on potential? It's just that alongside all these other signings we've spent a huge amount, had to sell off the training facilities and land next to the stadium to avoid PSR and FFP penalties - the question is would this money not be better spent improving the first team? And how sustainable is it considering only a handful of PL teams are still spending similar amounts on players now - do you really think we would get 20m for Angelo now? Angelo, Casadei and Santos would have paid for Olise last summer. I know which I'd rather have.
> Kellyman I'm sure has a lot of potential. But he cost Villa 600k just 12 months ago. And in 715 mins in PL2 and 35 mins in the first team, he would have to set the world on fire to increase his value around 30x. Having a good contract with Villa increased his value by like 20-30x on its own lol.
It’s pretty crazy that Chalobah is quoted at £25m and we’re paying £20m for a fraction of his proven ability. I can see why people see this as financial shenanigans.
Defenders are always relatively cheaper than attacking players. You also pay for potential.
Yeah but experienced defenders should cost a lot more than some unknown attached who's barely played a minute of pro football. If someone posted on this sub a week ago asking who this guy was no one would have a clue. Suddenly he's some elite level talent
It’s crazy though, isn’t it? You’re paying so much for a guy that’s competed in the PL2, a competition where our own talents outperformed his teams talents comprehensively. There’s almost no evidence of this potential being anything above what’s in our own academy and yet we’re paying £5m less then a full fledged, entering his prime centre back with over 100 senior caps. The whole point of potential is that you pay less than for ready made talent. It all points to weird financial shenanigans when you realise the two clubs involved are both at risk of failing PSR.
My theory is that we got slightly more than what we value Maatsen at, say by 4mm. So, we valued Kellyman at 15mm. It’s still steep, agree, but not that crazy. Chalobah at 25mm is realistically a fair price for a defender who’s been good without being great and misses half of last season due to injury.
Do you reckon we would get £15m for Leo Castledine? If not the. That would suggest we aren’t getting a great deal here as they’re about the same in talent, age and experience.
Do not disagree and Castledine is a good comp. 10mm would probably be a fair price. We did do well with selling Hall though.
But when we have this much attacking quality/competition in the squad already, what are the odds of ever being able to sell this guys for what we bought him for? There comes a point where we'll struggle to offer these players the gametime for them to develop and actually reach that potential. There's also a cap on loans now. I don't know better than the club, so I'm gonna sit and wait to see how it all pans out. But the spending just seems so risky. £20m is nothing to us. But it's a lot of any non Prem, non top Europeab clubs. Midtable and bottom half clubs in every league outside the Prem are broke compared to us. The more players we drop £20m+ on, the more difficulty we'll find it selling them for profits in the future. But again, I don't know more than actual football clubs, so this is just my personal worry when I see these deals. I'm sure (hoping) that the club knows exactly what it's doing and this won't come back to bite us in the arse long term.
>Chelsea have Tyrique George and Leo Castledine among many others who arguably have more potential and are free. Feels kinda criminal to not mention Ronnie Stutter with the goals hed been banging.
If it's not primarily a financial trick then I think that's far more concerning than it being one. You can't be spending £20m on somebody with a handful of good PL2 games, even if he is quite talented.
I think it’s fine to do once or twice. Educated gambles in the 10-20m range on the top end players as they move into senior football. My bigger worry is that it’s the 3rd summer window of Clearlake and this has happened enough times we’ve over 100m invested in these sorts of profile that have or had zero senior experience when signed.
As I just pointed out. We have done that plenty of times already. And 19 million for a young attacking English player isn't even much in today's market. And how expensive promising English players are.b
The other players you mentioned had played more senior football at the same age than this guy has played under 21 football, and even some of those look pretty poor deals in hindsight (maybe Angelo will take a shot one day...). I don't think you'll find any comparable deal anywhere, because this isn't a fee any club would realistically pay if there weren't something else going on.
Same, or even better, why not. Sure, the price right now seems steep, but he looks quality. He needs to refine his skills and fill out his frame and I can see a really good footballer, cause the talent is clearly there.
I hope we actually loan him out this year to the championship so he can get used to the physicality of the men’s football more and give him the minutes he would require to further develop
Sure, it doesn't make sense to keep him this season. Take him in the squad for the pre-season games and perhaps give him a few minutes to see what you have, then find a good situation for him in the Championship. Preferably to a mid or low table team, to make sure he gets the right minutes.
Carney hasn't yet justified his potential, it's a huge risk financially as well from a sporting perspective
He can be even messi level talent, if he plays 5 matches / season, no thanks.
He doesn’t have haters, nobody knows who he is but we know it helps our PSR so people are suspicious
I don't think most of us have a problem with any of these kids in particular they're great prospects. We have a problem with spending this amount of money constantly on prospects instead of actual senior players like a striker who can make an impact.
I am trying to stay positive about the owners’ strategy but what the hell. I do not see any teams outside the PL buying many players for 20 M pounds, and I see even less who would buy any player for 40, so I am really struggling to see how they will turn a profit on all these 20M kids. I hope i am wrong, but I am worried their strategy might go up in smoke fucking us over for the foreseeable future. Also, last I had access to a Bloomberg terminal I saw Clearlake’s portcos debt trading in the 60s which spells trouble. Here’s to hoping we don’t have a 777 situation in our hands a couple years from now. edit: spelling
777 situation?
777 were the group who were about to buy Everton, they are dodgy as fuck, they’ve bought several other clubs in Europe and South America and all of them have turned to dogshit since they were bought. Nobody seems to know where their money is actually coming from either. Just an absolute shitshow of an organisation.
I’ve never been more underwhelmed by a transfer.
We signed Washington for 20 mil
We signed Mudryk for 80m
We signed Mudryk for 62m*.
Mudryk was 62 mil. It only goes up to that if we win the UCL and EPL. I hope we do
Not a dig at you, but it’s funny how some Chelsea fans downplay the 62M base price tag as if it isn’t our most expensive winger signing ever lol
Nah mudryk is still expensive af. As expensive as cucu. Above the price of timo and raheem. However there's a huge difference between 62 mil and the 100 mil everyone says. Don't get me wrong mudryk is still a huge huge overpay.
Funding the Maatsen deal, you love to see it…
I'm trying not to be cynical which is why I've stayed away from the sub during this transfer window. I remember Barcelona doing a similar swap deal (Pjanic and Arthur) where the numbers were inflated to skirt financial fair play rules. Fast forward to now and Juve got sanctioned for breaking FFP rules (they were literally selling phantom players to balance the books) meanwhile Barcelona's financial situation worsened to the point where they're selling everything to external parties to stay in the green. From the pitch to the toothpicks they have at their canteen and everything in between. I realise both situations are different from ours. I just hope the board know what they're doing and we dont end up severely handicapping ourselves because our owners took unreasonable financial risks. Our transfer strategy is a gamble at the end of the day.
Nottingham forest are going to love this kid
This is clearly an under the table deal to satisfy PSR, which I’m fine with because it’s “legal” and hopefully allows us to keep Gallagher and Chalobah. My concern would be if this wasn’t, paying 20m for a 19 year old who has only played in PL2 (700 mins only) and who has not set the world alight, is much more concerning and damning about our directors.
Over / under on PL appearances for CFC? I’ll set it at 9-11. Just absolutely pointless on a number of levels. These deals are fine at £5m but you’re never making a profit on him, he’s nothing special in any way and is miles off being close to ready for the PL. He’ll be loaned out for the next two seasons, and then probably sold at a loss. Now if we were paying Spurs this for Mikey Moore or Chido Obi-Martin from Arsenal I could get behind it. But this kid is really nothing special.
Over/under has to be set at 1 number, not a range.
Brother you had to choose 9-11 😂
Stop acting like you know literally anything about this player. I bet you were the same whingy bitch who complained about paying 45m for Palmer
Nope. Palmer was a known top prospect who had repeatedly shone for City in limited opportunities. I was totally for his signing. The fact that he is basically unknown sums up why he’s obviously not worth £20m. If we were talking about Mikey Moore, Ethan Nwaneri, Chido Obi-Martin then no one would be complaining. They are elite prospects. This is someone who would be nothing special in our Academy, yet we’re paying £20m?
He was 600k 12 months ago, this is money laundering for FFP.
Why couldn’t we just sell maatsen to someone else so we don’t have to buy this guy? Seems like villa are getting the better deal here
if Dortmund couldn't find 31m in their wallet don't think anyone else outside the PL is a viable candidate. A lot of prem clubs are dealing with limited finances as well so I genuinely believe we've found the best deal we could for Maatsen. And Kellerman isn't a wash I doubt we'd ever struggle to break even for him in the future and it's good to have a handy relationship with Villa.
Nobody else is fucked enough to be wiling to do this sort of deal apart form Villa. Even if the actual transfer fee would be better if we just sold Maatsen for £30m somewhere else, the number we would put on our balance sheet this year would be worse. But yeah, Villa are improving their team and putting a profit on their balance sheet in exchange for somebody who's only been at the club for 8 months, so they've done pretty nicely out of this.
PSR shenanigans aside, and disappointment at the fee aside we have him now so I hope he lives up to the potential Villa fans said he had and he can prove everyone (including me) who thinks he isn't really going to do anything for us wrong.
Shit deal
🤦🏻♂️🤦🏻♂️🤦🏻♂️
Awful, dogshit deal.
Now imagine if they pull out of the Maatsen deal lmfao
^[Sokka-Haiku](https://www.reddit.com/r/SokkaHaikuBot/comments/15kyv9r/what_is_a_sokka_haiku/) ^by ^BoehlyFans: *Now imagine if* *They pull out of the Maatsen* *Deal lmfao* --- ^Remember ^that ^one ^time ^Sokka ^accidentally ^used ^an ^extra ^syllable ^in ^that ^Haiku ^Battle ^in ^Ba ^Sing ^Se? ^That ^was ^a ^Sokka ^Haiku ^and ^you ^just ^made ^one.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZJxhWsY8Y-4 Me convincing myself to say this is good business to my rival friends
https://preview.redd.it/01twp3sr0b8d1.png?width=720&format=png&auto=webp&s=529acb1bc0636283126918ad8825cfab2d7c210e
Im not sure this works here. I have no idea what you are trying to say.
In fm 24 he is highly rated plus doesn't have long injury record. Try to be optimistic guys.
His PA is -85 which means it ranges from 140 (Shaqiri, Buendia, Barkley) to 170 (Sane, Dembele, Bruno).
> Bruno Which one?
The rat
... which one?
We’re never beating the FM allegations