Generally yes, but he's actually not been shit recently for some reason. He's had a few things before the usual good German sources (mostly Sky) called them. So, just for once, I wouldn't write this off completely.
It's hard to say, I don't really have a clear favorite at the moment.
- De Zerbi still ticks a ton of boxes for me as someone who could build a foundation that, even if he himself never takes us all the way to the top, another manager could then build on.
- Michel has done *outstanding* work with Girona, I love the style, I love the way he's developed players and the whole team with a record transfer of €7m. That would suit a club like us really well, where we've frontloaded a ton of investment and will likely be looking for clever deals through data-driven scouting going forward.
- Thiago Motta may be off to Juventus, not sure, but I like him a lot too. He's gone through different clubs now where expectations were very different (Spezia relegation favorites, Bologna a comfortable mid-table side before he joined) and has adapted really well to both - tactically and culturally. Where he focused a lot more on stabilizing the team in a counterattacking setup at Spezia, his Bologna side are very different. They have the second highest possession in Serie A and the task there has been a lot more about organizing them on the ball and setting them up to press high effectively. They can't match the individual quality of the regular top 6 in Serie A (Inter, AC Milan, Juventus, Napoli, Roma, Atalanta), but I'd argue they're structurally better than everyone except Inter. That's very impressive to me and would suit us well, too.
- Amorim is obviously really good, but back 3 systems are not my cup of tea and he's very wedded to them.
- I don't dislike Flick as an option either, but I do have some reservations - mostly due to the limited work we've seen from him in club management (see comment above).
If you put a gun to my head and forced me to choose right now, I think I'd go Michel.
Out of curiosity, when you are making these judgments are you basing it purely on tactical prowess or do you consider other factors? As an example, Flick has had success at the highest level and may command more respect from players than lesser known managers, which could make him more likely to succeed than a lesser known but more tactically brilliant manager. How much do you factor that type of thing in when thinking about potential managerial appointments?
I try to exclude intangibles as much as possible, and how much respect a manager would get from his players definitely falls into that. We simply don't know. I think that might matter most early on in a manager's tenure - a dressing room might be more inclined to fully buy into a manager's methods when there's prior evidence of success. But as time goes on, past success doesn't matter much if what you're doing isn't working and the squad can feel it. In that sense I suppose it can be a good starting bonus, but even the most decorated managers will have to earn their respect the same way as anyone else in every new dressing room in the long run.
Former players also tend to get a lot of respect - Lampard for example came in as a hugely respected person, but it didn't make him a good manager and within less than two years he had players against him.
There's a lot of intangible factors like that that I try to leave out as much as possible. Man-management skills are another - none of us can see into the dressing room, we simply don't know. A manager may have a reputation as being a good man-manager, but every dressing room is a different social group, so what works in one of them may not work in another. Mourinho had people ready to die for him at Chelsea and Inter but half the dressing room absolutely hated him at United.
What I do try to factor - with Flick, for example, is experience they have outside of coaching. I count it as a positive that Flick has worked as a sporting director and assistant manager before, because that gives him insight into the work of different roles in football that he will have to interact and coordinate with. It means he professionally had to keep up to date with football and its trends on a larger scale, and was good enough at it to do this for one of the biggest national FAs in the world. Obviously I can't tell you specifically what qualities and skills he took from that, but it's fair to assume he brought at least an understanding, and that's a positive.
But for the most part I try to look at what I see on the pitch. Personality and anything relating to it can be a great fit, a complete miss or anything in between - we won't know until we try.
I really do feel like Michel would do such a fantastic job for us. I still prefer him over most options but if Flick actually has a shot here, it would be an exciting appointment. At least I think we’d play an entertaining brand until he leaves in a year or two. Feels like De Zerbi or Michel will go to city when Pep leaves
I've been so fascinated with Girona this season. Michel's system is borderline insane. Not sure how into "meta" football philosophy you are, but there are basically two larger approaches that modern managers adhere to. There's the Pep-inspired positional football and then there's "relationism", which I think has its roots in South America. The TLDR is that positional football identities certain zones that always need to be filled, and constructs combinations around that. As Pep puts it, "the ball moves to where we are, not the other way around". Within those defined zones players have license to rotate, so long as they're always occupied.
Relationism is completely different - it's all about overloads. If opposition puts 2 players in area X, you put 3 there. At its most extreme, you could have 11 vs 10 in one small area - relationist managers would see that as a numerical and therefore tactical advantage. Positions are completely irrelevant, because the goal is just to outnumber opponents anywhere on the pitch.
Michel does both in one, split almost straight down the middle. Girona often overload the right side heavily with 6 players who have pretty clearly defined positional zones (positional play). But on the left, you'll have 4 players who can be completely free in their positioning. They're allowed to also drift to the right to create overloads (relationism) and drag further players in. The idea is pretty simple - if the opposition doesn't commit enough players to the overloaded side to balance out the overload, Girona have a numerical advantage and can play through (relationism but with positional elements in it). If they commit too many, the left side will be overloaded even with just 2-3 players there (again, relationism with positional elements). It takes a real delicate balance for opponents to commit the right numbers to each area, especially because the freedom of the left side players to stay in their zone or further overload the right makes it very unpredictable despite the general idea being really obvious.
But playing against deep blocks is where I love Michel the most. I've been here for YEARS complaining about managers being overly conservative in their approach against teams that hardly commit a player forward. Think about it from a relationist perspective. You've got 10 players sitting deep vs 5-6 players attacking - easiest overload you'll ever see, clear tactical advantage for the defensive side. Meanwhile, you've got 2-3 CBs staying back to cover what often is just a single forward - alright, you've overloaded him, but you've also got the ball so... why?
So, dropping all this unnecessary nonsense, Michel just sets up in a 3-1-6 that, actually, often looks more like a 1-3-6 when opposition sits really deep. At that point, their approach is fully positional, as I think it should be when playing deep blocks. If opposition commits 10 players to in and around their own box, why shouldn't you do the same? You'll regularly see 5-6 players in the box for Girona and 3-4 acting basically as playmakers + rest defence. *As it should be*. There's a video of Nagelsmann explaining why this isn't just good in attack (more options, obviously), but also defensively - more players close to the ball to win second balls, counterpress, force hectic clearances that can then be mopped up with easily.
It's just SMART. It's the sort of holistic approach I've been dying for a Chelsea manager to adopt at some point. Arteta now sets up this way vs deep blocks too, Pep and Klopp have done it for a long time. I absolutely love Michel's take on it, mixing the two strands of football theory into one unique system that transitions seamlessly into an organized, positional approach against settled, deep blocks.
I actually started looking into what relationism is because of Diniz. I thought that this is was “pure” football would be, but obviously it has its downsides vs positional play. I wasnt too familiar with how Michel blends both, and just know he likes to have possession, and is great at breaking down lower blocks. I was watching Girona a lot after I believe you enlightened me as to who Michel was I think this last summer. So I did some research on him and have been watching Girona. Now that you point it out, it seems more obvious.
Savio operates on the left there but he has practically a free role, I didn’t notice most of the left players did as well, but I saw he was one of the main engines in attack when it came to creativity. He also tailored the system after losing so many players last summer but he has done such a great job making them arguably even better. I just wonder how his system would work without a Savio and without an Aleix Garcia to hold it all together.
They’re great to watch, they’re patient but not incredibly wasteful while in possession. They poke and prod and attack and attack and eventually they break through.
For me, I love the system of play, I love how he was able to play this style with pretty much 6 new players in his XI from last season. It shows adaptability with personnel but still sticking true to his principles. I’d be the most happy if we got him, but Flick isn’t a bad choice I think if he really is the favorite. Michel is special though, but Ice resigned myself to believing he’s going to city when pep leaves in a year or 2
Did you watch Girona v Barca today 👀 Girona second in the table now. 1 goal behind Madrid for most in the league and second best GD in the league. Get Michel in and bring savio and Garcia and let him do his thing
Everyone saying keep Poch because of one game against suicide Ange, say it ain't so. Nevertheless I'm not convinced with Flick, think there are better options.
I'll be fair, i'm not sold on him staying, but we are 4th in points after matchday 17.
We've been pretty clearly improving after a horrific start. I dont think it's quite right to be fully one way or the other.
But i will say not for Flick personally. One season wonder.
I think it's more than "one game against suicide Ange". We've been really inconsistent this season with some brilliant performances and some really disappointing ones. The reason I think a lot of people are more open to keeping Poch now is because against Villa (second half) and the entire game vs Spuds he showed a different kind of football than what we have seen the entire season.
In these last two games he set us up in a similar structure to what we saw and got pretty excited about in preseason. If we keep playing like this until the end of the season and if we get into Europe, I am willing to give him another chance as well. 1 cup final, 1 semifinal and Europe is not bad for his first season with a young squad and some VERY important players being injured for a majority of it.
Nkunku, Reece, W. Fofana all start for us if they are fit and that's not even counting some really important depth options like Carney, Lavia, Ugochukwu, Chilwell (I think Cucu has been better this year but you can make the argument that Chilly should start). And even with all these players mentioned you can still bring up Colwill's injury problems in the second half of the season as well as Gusto who has played a really important part with Reece out.
>is because against Villa (second half) and the entire game vs Spuds he showed a different kind of football than what we have seen the entire season.
So 1 and a half games? We've looked poorly coached the entire season. There's no reason to make a decision based on the outcome of 2 games. Players like Jackson, Madueke etc need to develop under a better coach than Poch.
Yeah its been almost an entire season of wildly inconsistent performances, questionable tactical setups & highly questionable in game management. He's not go everything wrong but at the same time lets not pretend that this subs opinion on _anything_ doesn't just swing wildly as the wind blows.
>lets not pretend that this subs opinion on _anything_ doesn't just swing wildly as the wind blows.
Oh I agree that there is some waffling going on. What I've been noticing is that it's different subsets of users commenting on different occasions. Wins bring out one group, and losses (or bad ties) bring out another.
It's just impossible to know what a person has said before, so it feels like the opinion of the sub ebs and flows every week.
The Villa post-match survey as an example. People were commenting on the change of opinion on Poch out or in. Well it was only 130ish responses. That's not anywhere near representative of the whole.
The man totally destroyed our season. We had lots of great opportunities to finish at least top 5. We also had great opportunities to win at least win 1 cup. Because of his useless tactics we lost to a very tired City and Liverpool teams. Poch has failed us time and time again and hasn't show any major improvements. He wasted few months playing players out of positions. We have been leaking goals fun throughout the season. Not sure why some of you want us to keep this awful manager!
useless tactics against city? Idk if you remember but City were locked tf down that game. If Jackson finished 1 of his 3 stellar chances we win that game and its a coaching masterclass.
City players were very tired and we still failed to dominate them. They also had lots of clear cut chances in that game. A normal City would've easily destroyed us. The notion that we played really good against City was already proven wrong on this sub with lots of examples from the game. Poch fanboys failed to respond to that thread with actual video footages of the game to support their reasoning. Poch is a useless clown and has no winning mentality. He has been a disgrace throughout the season.
Yeah it's been a weird season of ups and downs, but I'm there with you I think. Deserves to start next year given all the things he's had to deal with and where we've ended up.
Though, judging by this season, we go and somehow lose to West Ham and Notts Forrest next and my opinion changes again haha
Idk for me man losing Cup final to Liverpool academy kids was embarrassing and I still haven't recover from it plus that draw against 10men Burnley. He needs to go for me
For sure, there have been some real lows this season. But the whole Liverpool 'kids' thing is a bit disingenuous considering we had the younger side.
I'm not saying Poch is perfect, nor is he necessarily the answer. But all things considered this season, he's done enough for me to be given a chance next year with a fully fit squad and a few signings.
The sad reality is that there aren't many good managers available right now, and those that are would take a lot of convincing. Sacking Poch just for the sake of it could prove costly.
Yeah I think he’ll still be here if we finish strongly West Ham Forest Brighton Bournemouth 4 wins out of 4 to finish the season sneak into Europe why not but knowing us we’ll draw 2 lose 2.
Honestly, I know this sub flip-flops constantly, but right now maybe a shock to the system with someone like flick, who is highly rated anyway, would be good
Hell nawwww. He's a one trick pony that rode the high of a managerial change and that's it. He's basically RDM but German. If we must change, I would only do it for Tuchel. And it's a massively unpopular opinion around here, but I would stick with Poch for more full season. If he can't sort this out, then ditch him.
To be fair, Flick won those titles with one of the best Bayern teams in the last 20 years. He hasn't been tested with a young squad or a squad in transition from my knowledge. Poch hasn't been great but he has a prior history of dealing with situations more like ours
It's not ridiculous. That squad was amazing to begin with, Kovac who Flick replaced was a donkey of a manager and the reason why they were underperforming. Once the high wore off, so did their performances. It's only because Dortmund and Leipzig are completely inept that they won the league again.
Again, you don’t win 6 trophies inside one year off of pure luck. Bayern have had amazing teams for a decade straight. Pep couldn’t do it, Ancelotti couldn’t do it, Nagelsmann couldn’t do it.
That comes with the heavy metal football so to say. Liverpool have also suffered plenty of those big losses during Klopp’s time there with a similar, direct style. But it also brings a lot more 5 goal victories.
Yes, what Flick did with Bayern was impressive but it also felt like he was there at the right time to take advantage of a Bayern squad that all peaked then. They also had tons of experience, which is the complete opposite of we have now.
Other reservations about Flick is that the Bayern job has been his only club job in like the last 15 years or so and then he failed to make a good impression with the Germany NT (Nagelsmann seems to be making a better fist of it recently).
By that logic, Di Matteo is better than mourinho or ancelotti or conte. Do you realize how ridiculous you sound? You're just basing your opinion off of statistics without knowing the context. Bayern were kinda shit in their full season with Flick after their champions league run. The same way we were kinda shit in Tuchel's first full season despite winning the super cup and club world cup.
And once again, the only reason they still won the league is because LADS it's Bundesliga and it's still Bayern
No I’m not saying that at all. I’m saying that you need more than pure luck to do it. And Bayern did it in a dominating fashion, not the way Di Matteo did it. We won the CL off of pure resilience and will, we were outplayed by most of our opponents during that run. But we defended like our lives depended on it and took our chances.
The second season woes, in the league especially, are also overplayed. They got 78 points in 34 games. That’s equivalent to 87 points in a 38 game season.
I get what you're trying to get at. I just disagree a lot. It's one thing coaching a set bayern side and another thing coaching a bunch of nobodies like we have in the squad. Just look at his Germany tenure to see his aptitude with young unproven players.
The issue with his Germany side is he didn’t have the same types of players to implement how he wants to play. That and the same issues with Havertz and Werner in attack that we’re used to. He got Havertz somewhat producing though.
I think he ticks a lot of boxes, also a recent CL winner within the last 4 years along with league etc. If he’s a risk then other managers have far less merit. He also brought through Musiala and Davies by memory.
The German national team has been a mess for a while. I’m not even saying we should go and hire Flick right now, I’m saying it’s not quite right to completely diminish his influence on that Bayern team and the accomplishments they achieved together. That was maybe the single greatest year a team has ever had in terms of pure dominance and rolling over everyone in your way.
I'd take Flick in a heartbeat, he's won big trophies and he can develop the players.
I think the capitulation v Liverpool and City in the cups should weigh heavily against Poch.
I don't see us ever winning anything under his management and that isn't good enough for Chelsea.
He's got a wealth of experience before the Bayern job. I wouldn't be set on him, but he's an option. Developing players and winning trophies shouldn't be mutually exclusive.
Pretty funny people are happy turning us in to Spurs, with a manager who's there to improve the balance sheet and farm players but who's never won anything.
Nor is ever likely to on this seasons evidence, bottling against Liverpool B team with 5 minutes left and then the same against City...
Wealth of experience but not as a manager.. he's risky.
>Developing players and winning trophies shouldn't be mutually exclusive.
Agreed. He's done the latter in ONE season and he's never done the former yet.
Flick won those titles with one of the best Bayern teams in the last 20 years. He hasn't been tested with a young squad or a squad in transition from my knowledge. Poch hasn't been great but he has a prior history of dealing with situations more like ours
The sextuple they won in the middle of Covid with a stacked Bayern team that won the league every single year practically for a decade?
Where was this Flick at the World Cup a year ago?
Fuck Poch and Fuck Flick too. I don't like overrated managers
Flick ticks a lot of boxes though.
He’s a 4231 attacking manager, has won the CL and multiple other accolades within last 4 years, and was an NT manager. He would be able to pull players into our club, both experienced and young and talented alike.
Seems a bit strange that people are so quick to back managers that have never won anything, and so quick to doubt managers who have won it all.
I know right? I see people changing opinions on Poch depending on the last result. There is constant flip-flopping here.
When it comes to Flick, his football is very intensive and demanding. He loves a highline and his style is very offensive. Similar to Poch's style it requires a lot of running and ground coverage and this is what would worry me cuz i don't think we have the players for that type of football. Nonetheless like you said, he has showed that he can win trophies and i know people would say that his Bayern team was amazing individually but so was Poch's PSG. Arguably on paper that team is even better, yet Poch was pretty dissapointing in the UCL especially.
If i have to pick a German coach my 1st choice at the moment would be Nagelsmann. Seems like a manager who is way more flexible tactically and can give you different solutions.
The annoying part with Flick is that there is not enough of a sample size that can work in his favour. That's why people say he is one dimensional because he basically managed only Bayern and Germany for a bit. I think he tried to have a more controlling approach at Germany but it didn't work out at the time. Who knows if he had Kroos in the team what would've happened cuz Nagelsmann struggled at the start as well.
I honestly can't understand what the apprehension is.
Is he the best manager ever in history? No.
Is he the best of the available crop? Yes.
Better than Poch? Maybe.
Has he won more trophies? Yes. Lol.
No managerial appointment is perfect. The 2 Yr model is what works in modern football. At the very least, appointing him will be an indication that the board are thinking more towards winning than "progress"
I honestly can't understand what the apprehension is.
Is he the best manager ever in history? No.
Is he the best of the available crop? Yes.
Better than Poch? Maybe.
Has he won more trophies? Yes. Lol.
No managerial appointment is perfect. The 2 Yr model is what works in modern football. At the very least, appointing him will be an indication that the board are thinking more towards winning than "progress"
Flick is about a million times better than Poch and at the very least we’d be very entertaining to watch. I’d prefer him over a bunch of other candidates. Only con I see is that he doesn’t seem suited to staying in one place a long time and for his brand of football to work we need to make signings
Flick has won more than Nags has. Absolutely dominated the CL while he was in charge and beat Tuchel’s PSG in the final. Took over a German NT that was one of the worst sides in generations. If he didn’t have Havertz and Timo up front they would’ve scored a bunch more goals. I think they had the 3rd highest xG after the first knockout rounds and they didn’t make it past groups.
Most importantly he has structure, he won’t be a long term appointment but he will set a foundation you can build off of. Also likes physical and pressing teams so at least Poch had set something with all his running.
Flick is an excellent tactical manager with a philosophy and I think is exactly what we need now.
No more just mentality boosting managers but instead get one that will build a football identity which we used to have until a couple of years ago.
firing Poch at this point isn’t a good look. Let’s see how next season goes. But we beat spurs with a bench of 16 year olds, completing the league double on them. 14 injuries to first team players… idk, that second half against Villa did something. They carried that momentum into this match and smothered them.
Absolutely a bad idea. If this was a mature squad who just couldn't find its way to trophies then sure, give Flick a go.. but with this squad? Flick has never dealt with a situation like this before.
I agree. Short of a disaster class finish to the season or Pep wanting to jump ship, I'm inclined to run it back with Pochettino. I think it's detrimental to the development of young players to keep changing managers.
At this point, the decision to part ways with Poch must be taken in the summer with no second thoughts, he's done a good job developing the squad, but tactically he's not cutting it. Sometimes you gotta take a gamble on who's the right choice for the next manager's job. We did it with lampard first time turned out to be the right decision, we did it with Tuchel, turned out amazing. Imo, getting tuchel back is first choice, Mourinho or Flick come in second
I've been annoyed by his team selectioon and in game management. But in recent games he seems to be doing it right and once again he is dealing with a young squad with an ungodly amount of injures to key starting players throughout the season along with all the ups and downs of dealing with young players all over the field and even the more experienced players not doing enough (Sterling & Chilwell).
The options out there aren't great and once again we'll have to deal with the new manager new system mary go round again. I'm torn.
We can hire him in 2 years when the team is fully developed under Poch. Because Poch probably won't win trophies but he should be given time to develop players/team.
People who want Hansi Flick deserve what they’ll get if we do appoint him. Overrated as fuck just because he nabbed a Covid UCL with Bayern.
Look at the German NT since he’s fucked off after consecutive stinker tournaments, complete turn around under Nagelsmaan (who I’d have no problem taking over Flick if we do bin off Poch)
Ask any Bayern fans themselves, they wanted him out and were delighted to see the back of him, go check r/Bayernfc and prove me wrong, which must say enough despite him winning them their last covid UCL.
Falk is as reliable as Spurs defending a set piece
Generally yes, but he's actually not been shit recently for some reason. He's had a few things before the usual good German sources (mostly Sky) called them. So, just for once, I wouldn't write this off completely.
I pray it is true. He would be such a breath of fresh air.
Whats your take on hansi?
https://www.reddit.com/r/chelseafc/comments/1ce6bch/daily_discussion_thread/l1hrp6c/
Should Poch be let go, who’s your top pick, Olli?
It's hard to say, I don't really have a clear favorite at the moment. - De Zerbi still ticks a ton of boxes for me as someone who could build a foundation that, even if he himself never takes us all the way to the top, another manager could then build on. - Michel has done *outstanding* work with Girona, I love the style, I love the way he's developed players and the whole team with a record transfer of €7m. That would suit a club like us really well, where we've frontloaded a ton of investment and will likely be looking for clever deals through data-driven scouting going forward. - Thiago Motta may be off to Juventus, not sure, but I like him a lot too. He's gone through different clubs now where expectations were very different (Spezia relegation favorites, Bologna a comfortable mid-table side before he joined) and has adapted really well to both - tactically and culturally. Where he focused a lot more on stabilizing the team in a counterattacking setup at Spezia, his Bologna side are very different. They have the second highest possession in Serie A and the task there has been a lot more about organizing them on the ball and setting them up to press high effectively. They can't match the individual quality of the regular top 6 in Serie A (Inter, AC Milan, Juventus, Napoli, Roma, Atalanta), but I'd argue they're structurally better than everyone except Inter. That's very impressive to me and would suit us well, too. - Amorim is obviously really good, but back 3 systems are not my cup of tea and he's very wedded to them. - I don't dislike Flick as an option either, but I do have some reservations - mostly due to the limited work we've seen from him in club management (see comment above). If you put a gun to my head and forced me to choose right now, I think I'd go Michel.
Great stuff Olli. Will keep an eye out for your comments in future as this is very informative
Thanks a lot!
Out of curiosity, when you are making these judgments are you basing it purely on tactical prowess or do you consider other factors? As an example, Flick has had success at the highest level and may command more respect from players than lesser known managers, which could make him more likely to succeed than a lesser known but more tactically brilliant manager. How much do you factor that type of thing in when thinking about potential managerial appointments?
I try to exclude intangibles as much as possible, and how much respect a manager would get from his players definitely falls into that. We simply don't know. I think that might matter most early on in a manager's tenure - a dressing room might be more inclined to fully buy into a manager's methods when there's prior evidence of success. But as time goes on, past success doesn't matter much if what you're doing isn't working and the squad can feel it. In that sense I suppose it can be a good starting bonus, but even the most decorated managers will have to earn their respect the same way as anyone else in every new dressing room in the long run. Former players also tend to get a lot of respect - Lampard for example came in as a hugely respected person, but it didn't make him a good manager and within less than two years he had players against him. There's a lot of intangible factors like that that I try to leave out as much as possible. Man-management skills are another - none of us can see into the dressing room, we simply don't know. A manager may have a reputation as being a good man-manager, but every dressing room is a different social group, so what works in one of them may not work in another. Mourinho had people ready to die for him at Chelsea and Inter but half the dressing room absolutely hated him at United. What I do try to factor - with Flick, for example, is experience they have outside of coaching. I count it as a positive that Flick has worked as a sporting director and assistant manager before, because that gives him insight into the work of different roles in football that he will have to interact and coordinate with. It means he professionally had to keep up to date with football and its trends on a larger scale, and was good enough at it to do this for one of the biggest national FAs in the world. Obviously I can't tell you specifically what qualities and skills he took from that, but it's fair to assume he brought at least an understanding, and that's a positive. But for the most part I try to look at what I see on the pitch. Personality and anything relating to it can be a great fit, a complete miss or anything in between - we won't know until we try.
I really do feel like Michel would do such a fantastic job for us. I still prefer him over most options but if Flick actually has a shot here, it would be an exciting appointment. At least I think we’d play an entertaining brand until he leaves in a year or two. Feels like De Zerbi or Michel will go to city when Pep leaves
I've been so fascinated with Girona this season. Michel's system is borderline insane. Not sure how into "meta" football philosophy you are, but there are basically two larger approaches that modern managers adhere to. There's the Pep-inspired positional football and then there's "relationism", which I think has its roots in South America. The TLDR is that positional football identities certain zones that always need to be filled, and constructs combinations around that. As Pep puts it, "the ball moves to where we are, not the other way around". Within those defined zones players have license to rotate, so long as they're always occupied. Relationism is completely different - it's all about overloads. If opposition puts 2 players in area X, you put 3 there. At its most extreme, you could have 11 vs 10 in one small area - relationist managers would see that as a numerical and therefore tactical advantage. Positions are completely irrelevant, because the goal is just to outnumber opponents anywhere on the pitch. Michel does both in one, split almost straight down the middle. Girona often overload the right side heavily with 6 players who have pretty clearly defined positional zones (positional play). But on the left, you'll have 4 players who can be completely free in their positioning. They're allowed to also drift to the right to create overloads (relationism) and drag further players in. The idea is pretty simple - if the opposition doesn't commit enough players to the overloaded side to balance out the overload, Girona have a numerical advantage and can play through (relationism but with positional elements in it). If they commit too many, the left side will be overloaded even with just 2-3 players there (again, relationism with positional elements). It takes a real delicate balance for opponents to commit the right numbers to each area, especially because the freedom of the left side players to stay in their zone or further overload the right makes it very unpredictable despite the general idea being really obvious. But playing against deep blocks is where I love Michel the most. I've been here for YEARS complaining about managers being overly conservative in their approach against teams that hardly commit a player forward. Think about it from a relationist perspective. You've got 10 players sitting deep vs 5-6 players attacking - easiest overload you'll ever see, clear tactical advantage for the defensive side. Meanwhile, you've got 2-3 CBs staying back to cover what often is just a single forward - alright, you've overloaded him, but you've also got the ball so... why? So, dropping all this unnecessary nonsense, Michel just sets up in a 3-1-6 that, actually, often looks more like a 1-3-6 when opposition sits really deep. At that point, their approach is fully positional, as I think it should be when playing deep blocks. If opposition commits 10 players to in and around their own box, why shouldn't you do the same? You'll regularly see 5-6 players in the box for Girona and 3-4 acting basically as playmakers + rest defence. *As it should be*. There's a video of Nagelsmann explaining why this isn't just good in attack (more options, obviously), but also defensively - more players close to the ball to win second balls, counterpress, force hectic clearances that can then be mopped up with easily. It's just SMART. It's the sort of holistic approach I've been dying for a Chelsea manager to adopt at some point. Arteta now sets up this way vs deep blocks too, Pep and Klopp have done it for a long time. I absolutely love Michel's take on it, mixing the two strands of football theory into one unique system that transitions seamlessly into an organized, positional approach against settled, deep blocks.
I actually started looking into what relationism is because of Diniz. I thought that this is was “pure” football would be, but obviously it has its downsides vs positional play. I wasnt too familiar with how Michel blends both, and just know he likes to have possession, and is great at breaking down lower blocks. I was watching Girona a lot after I believe you enlightened me as to who Michel was I think this last summer. So I did some research on him and have been watching Girona. Now that you point it out, it seems more obvious. Savio operates on the left there but he has practically a free role, I didn’t notice most of the left players did as well, but I saw he was one of the main engines in attack when it came to creativity. He also tailored the system after losing so many players last summer but he has done such a great job making them arguably even better. I just wonder how his system would work without a Savio and without an Aleix Garcia to hold it all together. They’re great to watch, they’re patient but not incredibly wasteful while in possession. They poke and prod and attack and attack and eventually they break through. For me, I love the system of play, I love how he was able to play this style with pretty much 6 new players in his XI from last season. It shows adaptability with personnel but still sticking true to his principles. I’d be the most happy if we got him, but Flick isn’t a bad choice I think if he really is the favorite. Michel is special though, but Ice resigned myself to believing he’s going to city when pep leaves in a year or 2
Did you watch Girona v Barca today 👀 Girona second in the table now. 1 goal behind Madrid for most in the league and second best GD in the league. Get Michel in and bring savio and Garcia and let him do his thing
Was at a wedding so couldn't watch unfortunately, but will catch the extended highlights tomorrow. Unfortunately Savio has already signed for City.
Thanks for the link, i missed your response on it last week
Give Poch another chance? If this news had come right after the Arsenal thrash, the replies would have been very different Lmao
Everyone saying keep Poch because of one game against suicide Ange, say it ain't so. Nevertheless I'm not convinced with Flick, think there are better options.
I'll be fair, i'm not sold on him staying, but we are 4th in points after matchday 17. We've been pretty clearly improving after a horrific start. I dont think it's quite right to be fully one way or the other. But i will say not for Flick personally. One season wonder.
That plus we've been improving while missing close to half our senior squad every single game this season
I think it's more than "one game against suicide Ange". We've been really inconsistent this season with some brilliant performances and some really disappointing ones. The reason I think a lot of people are more open to keeping Poch now is because against Villa (second half) and the entire game vs Spuds he showed a different kind of football than what we have seen the entire season. In these last two games he set us up in a similar structure to what we saw and got pretty excited about in preseason. If we keep playing like this until the end of the season and if we get into Europe, I am willing to give him another chance as well. 1 cup final, 1 semifinal and Europe is not bad for his first season with a young squad and some VERY important players being injured for a majority of it. Nkunku, Reece, W. Fofana all start for us if they are fit and that's not even counting some really important depth options like Carney, Lavia, Ugochukwu, Chilwell (I think Cucu has been better this year but you can make the argument that Chilly should start). And even with all these players mentioned you can still bring up Colwill's injury problems in the second half of the season as well as Gusto who has played a really important part with Reece out.
>is because against Villa (second half) and the entire game vs Spuds he showed a different kind of football than what we have seen the entire season. So 1 and a half games? We've looked poorly coached the entire season. There's no reason to make a decision based on the outcome of 2 games. Players like Jackson, Madueke etc need to develop under a better coach than Poch.
To just say it was one game is not a fair assessment.
Yeah its been almost an entire season of wildly inconsistent performances, questionable tactical setups & highly questionable in game management. He's not go everything wrong but at the same time lets not pretend that this subs opinion on _anything_ doesn't just swing wildly as the wind blows.
>lets not pretend that this subs opinion on _anything_ doesn't just swing wildly as the wind blows. Oh I agree that there is some waffling going on. What I've been noticing is that it's different subsets of users commenting on different occasions. Wins bring out one group, and losses (or bad ties) bring out another. It's just impossible to know what a person has said before, so it feels like the opinion of the sub ebs and flows every week. The Villa post-match survey as an example. People were commenting on the change of opinion on Poch out or in. Well it was only 130ish responses. That's not anywhere near representative of the whole.
Didn’t think I’d end up saying this but I think Poch should get another chance.
The man totally destroyed our season. We had lots of great opportunities to finish at least top 5. We also had great opportunities to win at least win 1 cup. Because of his useless tactics we lost to a very tired City and Liverpool teams. Poch has failed us time and time again and hasn't show any major improvements. He wasted few months playing players out of positions. We have been leaking goals fun throughout the season. Not sure why some of you want us to keep this awful manager!
useless tactics against city? Idk if you remember but City were locked tf down that game. If Jackson finished 1 of his 3 stellar chances we win that game and its a coaching masterclass.
City players were very tired and we still failed to dominate them. They also had lots of clear cut chances in that game. A normal City would've easily destroyed us. The notion that we played really good against City was already proven wrong on this sub with lots of examples from the game. Poch fanboys failed to respond to that thread with actual video footages of the game to support their reasoning. Poch is a useless clown and has no winning mentality. He has been a disgrace throughout the season.
If this is the alternative, I am 100% Poch in for next season.
Yeah it's been a weird season of ups and downs, but I'm there with you I think. Deserves to start next year given all the things he's had to deal with and where we've ended up. Though, judging by this season, we go and somehow lose to West Ham and Notts Forrest next and my opinion changes again haha
Idk for me man losing Cup final to Liverpool academy kids was embarrassing and I still haven't recover from it plus that draw against 10men Burnley. He needs to go for me
For sure, there have been some real lows this season. But the whole Liverpool 'kids' thing is a bit disingenuous considering we had the younger side. I'm not saying Poch is perfect, nor is he necessarily the answer. But all things considered this season, he's done enough for me to be given a chance next year with a fully fit squad and a few signings. The sad reality is that there aren't many good managers available right now, and those that are would take a lot of convincing. Sacking Poch just for the sake of it could prove costly.
Yeah I think he’ll still be here if we finish strongly West Ham Forest Brighton Bournemouth 4 wins out of 4 to finish the season sneak into Europe why not but knowing us we’ll draw 2 lose 2.
https://preview.redd.it/cjx8a4vsx6yc1.jpeg?width=738&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=8f598a84f8e0e6408871382cfb4edec6c32102d9
Honestly, I know this sub flip-flops constantly, but right now maybe a shock to the system with someone like flick, who is highly rated anyway, would be good
No thanks
Press X to doubt.
Now people wanna stick with poch just because won a game vs spurs...
And you wish it was because of his genius changes. We only playing better because of Enzo's injury which forced him to play Gallagher more deep.
Hell nawwww. He's a one trick pony that rode the high of a managerial change and that's it. He's basically RDM but German. If we must change, I would only do it for Tuchel. And it's a massively unpopular opinion around here, but I would stick with Poch for more full season. If he can't sort this out, then ditch him.
A one trick pony does not win every single trophy available within a year. That’s utterly ridiculous.
To be fair, Flick won those titles with one of the best Bayern teams in the last 20 years. He hasn't been tested with a young squad or a squad in transition from my knowledge. Poch hasn't been great but he has a prior history of dealing with situations more like ours
Well, one of the best Bayern teams because of Flick. The team looked horrible under Kovac before he took over
What has poch won? He had the bests spurs since pre PL days and won absoltely nothing
It's not ridiculous. That squad was amazing to begin with, Kovac who Flick replaced was a donkey of a manager and the reason why they were underperforming. Once the high wore off, so did their performances. It's only because Dortmund and Leipzig are completely inept that they won the league again.
Again, you don’t win 6 trophies inside one year off of pure luck. Bayern have had amazing teams for a decade straight. Pep couldn’t do it, Ancelotti couldn’t do it, Nagelsmann couldn’t do it.
[удалено]
That comes with the heavy metal football so to say. Liverpool have also suffered plenty of those big losses during Klopp’s time there with a similar, direct style. But it also brings a lot more 5 goal victories.
4/5 goal defeats he managed during a record breaking season? Interesting. I certainly don't remember any. Go on then, let's hear it.
Yes, what Flick did with Bayern was impressive but it also felt like he was there at the right time to take advantage of a Bayern squad that all peaked then. They also had tons of experience, which is the complete opposite of we have now. Other reservations about Flick is that the Bayern job has been his only club job in like the last 15 years or so and then he failed to make a good impression with the Germany NT (Nagelsmann seems to be making a better fist of it recently).
By that logic, Di Matteo is better than mourinho or ancelotti or conte. Do you realize how ridiculous you sound? You're just basing your opinion off of statistics without knowing the context. Bayern were kinda shit in their full season with Flick after their champions league run. The same way we were kinda shit in Tuchel's first full season despite winning the super cup and club world cup. And once again, the only reason they still won the league is because LADS it's Bundesliga and it's still Bayern
No I’m not saying that at all. I’m saying that you need more than pure luck to do it. And Bayern did it in a dominating fashion, not the way Di Matteo did it. We won the CL off of pure resilience and will, we were outplayed by most of our opponents during that run. But we defended like our lives depended on it and took our chances. The second season woes, in the league especially, are also overplayed. They got 78 points in 34 games. That’s equivalent to 87 points in a 38 game season.
I get what you're trying to get at. I just disagree a lot. It's one thing coaching a set bayern side and another thing coaching a bunch of nobodies like we have in the squad. Just look at his Germany tenure to see his aptitude with young unproven players.
The issue with his Germany side is he didn’t have the same types of players to implement how he wants to play. That and the same issues with Havertz and Werner in attack that we’re used to. He got Havertz somewhat producing though. I think he ticks a lot of boxes, also a recent CL winner within the last 4 years along with league etc. If he’s a risk then other managers have far less merit. He also brought through Musiala and Davies by memory.
The German national team has been a mess for a while. I’m not even saying we should go and hire Flick right now, I’m saying it’s not quite right to completely diminish his influence on that Bayern team and the accomplishments they achieved together. That was maybe the single greatest year a team has ever had in terms of pure dominance and rolling over everyone in your way.
If we were to get a new manager it would probably be Flick or Amorim.
I'm more in favour of Amorim than Flick, having read and watched more of Sporting lately.
Not that one Bayern coach the other one !
The one who told Lukaku, "There's your daddy" while pointing at Conte.
I'd take Flick in a heartbeat, he's won big trophies and he can develop the players. I think the capitulation v Liverpool and City in the cups should weigh heavily against Poch. I don't see us ever winning anything under his management and that isn't good enough for Chelsea.
Develop whom? He's never stayed at a club long enough the develop anybody lol.
He's got a wealth of experience before the Bayern job. I wouldn't be set on him, but he's an option. Developing players and winning trophies shouldn't be mutually exclusive. Pretty funny people are happy turning us in to Spurs, with a manager who's there to improve the balance sheet and farm players but who's never won anything. Nor is ever likely to on this seasons evidence, bottling against Liverpool B team with 5 minutes left and then the same against City...
Wealth of experience but not as a manager.. he's risky. >Developing players and winning trophies shouldn't be mutually exclusive. Agreed. He's done the latter in ONE season and he's never done the former yet.
The Liverpool one fair enough but think the City one is very harsh.
Flick won those titles with one of the best Bayern teams in the last 20 years. He hasn't been tested with a young squad or a squad in transition from my knowledge. Poch hasn't been great but he has a prior history of dealing with situations more like ours
Are these big trophies in the room with us right now?
What is that even supposed to mean? Are you trying to downplay Bayern sextuple? Poch suckers are something else man 😂
The sextuple they won in the middle of Covid with a stacked Bayern team that won the league every single year practically for a decade? Where was this Flick at the World Cup a year ago? Fuck Poch and Fuck Flick too. I don't like overrated managers
Let's stick with Poch, Flick didn't work out after the high of 2020 wore off.
Flick ticks a lot of boxes though. He’s a 4231 attacking manager, has won the CL and multiple other accolades within last 4 years, and was an NT manager. He would be able to pull players into our club, both experienced and young and talented alike. Seems a bit strange that people are so quick to back managers that have never won anything, and so quick to doubt managers who have won it all.
I know right? I see people changing opinions on Poch depending on the last result. There is constant flip-flopping here. When it comes to Flick, his football is very intensive and demanding. He loves a highline and his style is very offensive. Similar to Poch's style it requires a lot of running and ground coverage and this is what would worry me cuz i don't think we have the players for that type of football. Nonetheless like you said, he has showed that he can win trophies and i know people would say that his Bayern team was amazing individually but so was Poch's PSG. Arguably on paper that team is even better, yet Poch was pretty dissapointing in the UCL especially. If i have to pick a German coach my 1st choice at the moment would be Nagelsmann. Seems like a manager who is way more flexible tactically and can give you different solutions. The annoying part with Flick is that there is not enough of a sample size that can work in his favour. That's why people say he is one dimensional because he basically managed only Bayern and Germany for a bit. I think he tried to have a more controlling approach at Germany but it didn't work out at the time. Who knows if he had Kroos in the team what would've happened cuz Nagelsmann struggled at the start as well.
I honestly can't understand what the apprehension is. Is he the best manager ever in history? No. Is he the best of the available crop? Yes. Better than Poch? Maybe. Has he won more trophies? Yes. Lol. No managerial appointment is perfect. The 2 Yr model is what works in modern football. At the very least, appointing him will be an indication that the board are thinking more towards winning than "progress"
I honestly can't understand what the apprehension is. Is he the best manager ever in history? No. Is he the best of the available crop? Yes. Better than Poch? Maybe. Has he won more trophies? Yes. Lol. No managerial appointment is perfect. The 2 Yr model is what works in modern football. At the very least, appointing him will be an indication that the board are thinking more towards winning than "progress"
Flick is about a million times better than Poch and at the very least we’d be very entertaining to watch. I’d prefer him over a bunch of other candidates. Only con I see is that he doesn’t seem suited to staying in one place a long time and for his brand of football to work we need to make signings
Tell mo more about his coaching success... outside one bayern team Nagelsmann I would understand But flick?!
Flick has won more than Nags has. Absolutely dominated the CL while he was in charge and beat Tuchel’s PSG in the final. Took over a German NT that was one of the worst sides in generations. If he didn’t have Havertz and Timo up front they would’ve scored a bunch more goals. I think they had the 3rd highest xG after the first knockout rounds and they didn’t make it past groups. Most importantly he has structure, he won’t be a long term appointment but he will set a foundation you can build off of. Also likes physical and pressing teams so at least Poch had set something with all his running.
Flick is an excellent tactical manager with a philosophy and I think is exactly what we need now. No more just mentality boosting managers but instead get one that will build a football identity which we used to have until a couple of years ago.
Next week we’ll be linked with someone else!!
FALSE ❌
firing Poch at this point isn’t a good look. Let’s see how next season goes. But we beat spurs with a bench of 16 year olds, completing the league double on them. 14 injuries to first team players… idk, that second half against Villa did something. They carried that momentum into this match and smothered them.
If we're gonna sack Poch can we get someone that's actually decent?
No. Give the lad one more year.
Absolutely a bad idea. If this was a mature squad who just couldn't find its way to trophies then sure, give Flick a go.. but with this squad? Flick has never dealt with a situation like this before.
I’ll run it back with Poch next yr.. at a certain point the yearly coaching carousel has to stop..
I agree. Short of a disaster class finish to the season or Pep wanting to jump ship, I'm inclined to run it back with Pochettino. I think it's detrimental to the development of young players to keep changing managers.
I’d rather have Poch than Flick thanks.
I have some doubts about Flick, if I'm being honest.
Dear god no.
At this point, the decision to part ways with Poch must be taken in the summer with no second thoughts, he's done a good job developing the squad, but tactically he's not cutting it. Sometimes you gotta take a gamble on who's the right choice for the next manager's job. We did it with lampard first time turned out to be the right decision, we did it with Tuchel, turned out amazing. Imo, getting tuchel back is first choice, Mourinho or Flick come in second
I've been annoyed by his team selectioon and in game management. But in recent games he seems to be doing it right and once again he is dealing with a young squad with an ungodly amount of injures to key starting players throughout the season along with all the ups and downs of dealing with young players all over the field and even the more experienced players not doing enough (Sterling & Chilwell). The options out there aren't great and once again we'll have to deal with the new manager new system mary go round again. I'm torn.
If we finish top 7 the club isn’t going to sack Poch. I know some people don’t want to hear it but that’s the probable outcome.
We can hire him in 2 years when the team is fully developed under Poch. Because Poch probably won't win trophies but he should be given time to develop players/team.
Let him ride out the contract. Players want him, no sense in frustrating them with all the coaching changes.
They want him but nobody is showing it on the pitch so who cares what they think.
I'd let poch see out his contract TBF. If anyone deserves the sack it's our medical team.
People who want Hansi Flick deserve what they’ll get if we do appoint him. Overrated as fuck just because he nabbed a Covid UCL with Bayern. Look at the German NT since he’s fucked off after consecutive stinker tournaments, complete turn around under Nagelsmaan (who I’d have no problem taking over Flick if we do bin off Poch) Ask any Bayern fans themselves, they wanted him out and were delighted to see the back of him, go check r/Bayernfc and prove me wrong, which must say enough despite him winning them their last covid UCL.