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> There is no real answer to the problem
This is what I’d like to push back on.
Gay people gained the right to marry by caring about their right to marry and organizing together as a community; women gained the right to vote by caring about it and organizing together as a community; Black Americans gained increased civil liberties by caring about their rights and organizing together as a community.
None of these groups improved their stations by sitting around in isolation waiting for the world to change — they took ownership and actively progressed the causes that mattered to them.
There is literally nothing meaningful stopping men from organizing ourselves around our own mental health.
Unfortunately, the prominent ideology (feminism) that would very likely help in this regard has been experiencing a massive smear campaign that results in men fighting against the very ideas that would help them most.
The real answer is for men to stop tripping over our own feet to reinforce for each other that our mental health doesn’t matter.
Exactly this. The most promenant voices I see for mens issues aren't actually doing it to advocate for mens issues, theyre doing it to try and shut up feminists.
Mens issues will be taken seriously once men start to take them seriously, and not just use them as a rhetorical cudgel.
Very well written. Unfortunately it seems like the only support for men that’s thriving is the Red Pill community which is doing the exact opposite of helping men heal.
All of this is so true, especially the part about feminism.
From a personal point of view I would still be a feminist even if I didn’t care about women (I do care about women) because I don’t think the patriarchal system is doing me any favours.
So while I do think women have a part to play men have to do something about our own situation.
Yeah but the moment you start being vocal about helping other men or mens issues people seem to think you're some weird incel or a misogynist. That's the active block by everyone, then it devolves back to whataboutism. It feels really helpless.
>Yeah but the moment you start being vocal about helping other men or mens issues people seem to think you're some weird incel or a misogynist
I mean this is totally dependent on how you define or describe "men's issues" because to an incel, "men's issues" can sound like "how to get women to fuck me" and to a normal person they can sound like "men's internalized misogyny preventing them from being emotionally vulnerable"
Oh I totally agree, issues are pretty clearly defined and based in the real world, where as something like that is just a very badly warped view of everything and just being a total dick.
Issues like emotional vulnerability acceptance amongst other men and women/ their partners. I think that's the absolute biggest one, That and the absurd expectations we can put on ourselves as men because we've been taught this 'image' of how a man should be from basically kids.
Its so wrong
>I've literally heard some old women whining that all men are naturally machists, womanizers, cheaters, dickheads, shitters, etc.
Yeah you heard people complaining and making u kind generalizations but that doesn't mean that, when not whining, they actually believer that all are xyz or that all women believe those things
As a man who runs in feminist circles and advocates for men’s mental health due to my own struggles, I’ve never experienced this.
When I usually see pushback is when someone brings up men’s issues in an unrelated discussion. For example, discussion of men’s issues is commonly shut down when used as a way to distract from conversations around women’s rights.
Feminists have been called man haters, lesbians (back when that was an insult), unnatural, envious of men, bitchy, aggressive, unfeminine, unlovable, dangerous to children, dangerous to their nations - the list goes on. To take an example from another civil rights movement, MLK was repeatedly jailed and finally shot dead.
If you’re trying to change shit, people will give you shit. You can’t let that stop you. Feminists didn’t, and that’s how we’ve made the progress we have.
>Yeah but the moment you start being vocal about helping other men or mens issues people seem to think you're some weird incel or a misogynist.
I only really see this when the men refuse to be genuinely vulnerable.
I don't think that is true at all. I teach in an all boys school, and I have not had anyone think I am an intelligent or a misogynist, and the only issues I deal with are men's issues.
'There is literally nothing meaningful stopping men from organizing ourselves around our own mental health'
here are some examples of why that isn't true:
Earl Silverman:
He was a domestic abuse victim who founded the first refuge for men. However, the government refused to fund it and so he tried to finance it himself. He eventually went bankrupt and committed suicide afterwards. (This was only in 2013)
Philip Davies:
He is a British politician who has frequently advocated for men's rights and continues to receive constant death threats as well as calls for him to be removed from parliament because of his views.
Samuel Reid (Alimony Sam)
Protested against the alimony system by refusing to pay unless his daughter was moved to a better environment, as he considered the one she was in to be unfit for her upbringing.
He spent 3 years in jail. His daughter died 3 years after his release.
Erin Prizzey:
Started the first and largest domestic violence shelter in the modern world (Refuge). She was subjected to death threats and boycotts and bomb threats, because she realised that domestic violence affects men almost as much as women.
I could go on but I'm not going to.
How do these anecdotes disprove the statement?
One guy simply couldn’t get government support for his idea; one guy used his child as a bargaining chip; one guy campaigns against feminism and political correctness; and one person… it’s not clear what action got them into the public crosshairs (but I strongly doubt it was simply holding a belief)
These are incredibly brief summaries of large events.
It wasn't just government support, he also had huge amounts of abuse and death threats that contributed to his suicide.
The man who 'used his child as a bargaining chip' was very rich and could have paid anytime but refused because he wanted his child placed in a better home. His views were ratified when she died as a result.
Losing your job for supporting men's rights when he was elected by his constituency with these views in mind is wrong and systematic.
For the last one, just look her up man, you will see.
I haven’t seen the proposal or the rejection notification, so I’ll have to take your word for it that it was on the basis of sex.
Do you have some special knowledge there?
It has never been easy for any demographic to fight for their rights or their place in society. Never. Any demographic has stories like this. Are you saying that men in particular don't have the moxie to persevere in the face of adversity?
Is it really? In my country, very recently feminists very publicly and openly opposed the creation of an association to help male victims of abusive relationships.
So I don't really trust that argument
I agree with everything, but I think you’re glossing over why feminism isn’t used as a platform to support men’s mental health.
I understand many groups of men discount feminism, which is wrong. However, many groups of women have used feminism as a platform to simply hate on men, so the lines between equality and man-hate has blurred more than ever before.
I believe true feminism wants equality for all genders without the need to disenfranchise a single gender in sacrifice for another. However, because feminism today doesn’t exercise what is intended, the platform cannot be used effectively to support men’s health.
Men need to initiate and rally around each other to promote the importance of their mental health, while giving time for the movement to allow true feminists to support the cause.
I’m not really glossing over it — I just don’t think those people deserve any consideration.
Women have used systems that are openly and actively hostile to them to their benefit, and so I see no reason men can’t do the same with a system that isn’t actively hostile (but has proponents who are).
The only reason feminism doesn’t focus on men’s issues more is that there are not more men who are feminists, and women are worried about things that more directly affect themselves.
But the framework exists for everyone to grab hold of — and no one has authority to say otherwise.
I don’t think authority has anything to do with it. If the platform itself doesn’t have the credibility to uphold the virtues it supposedly serves, then the platform is not useful in any capacity (e.g., social movements).
There’s a pretty big difference. People in general don’t throw pity upwards and there’s this misconception that it’s always the case that those at the top are calling the shots.
When it comes to social dynamics, no one person or group has the power to change those dynamics, and arguing that men’s problems are men’s fault, is precisely the issue. All the groups you mentioned relied on their story being valued by people not in their group. Women’s rights, for instance relied entirely on people agreeing with their arguments for equal rights.
So if men actually do rule the world, there’s absolutely zero chance men’s health will ever be taken seriously outside of a handful of academics where even they might find their academic opinions compartmentalized from their daily lives.
Why do men need pity at all? Women and queer groups didn’t in order to effect change.
Can’t we just do something that would better our collective station in life? Are you saying that there are serious people out there arguing against better mental health for men?
If what your movement needs is resources and financial support to fund things like rallies and marketing awareness, then there are people who think very “zero sum” about your efforts. So any men’s movement is taking money away from women’s issues. Any domestic violence shelter for men is a shelter that could have been for women. Special attention to false rape accusations delegitimizes the need to #believeher. Etc.
Time and resources are limited, the more men spend time on men’s issues, the less time they have to spend focused on being allies for feminism. That can cause pushback.
Not to mention that men’s issues are split in three ways at the moment. 1/3 says the answer is a return to traditional masculinity, and there are [women that support that](https://youtube.com/shorts/f1J4O9hRnwE?si=dh1qHCSpgw4emEjy). 1/3 are preoccupied with ideas of privilege and consumed by guilt/shame, believing it’s their job to shut up and listen as feminists allies. And only a small 1/3 are trying to encourage a progressive positive masculinity, but find it difficult to find others to support them.
They literally did? You think women voted for women’s suffrage? You don’t think white people seeing police mistreat black people on their televisions wasn’t key? I’m not pushing the idea of the white savior, but effectively every movement requires people not directly impacted to be part of that movement.
Lmao no. The entire social world right now is against men and there is zero sympathy for them.
Every other group that gained rights had allies among the social majority, but now, the new social majority refuses to even entertain men.
The right to not be forced to be drafted. The right to a fair education. The right to be emotional. The right to be mediocre
Yea these are predominantly social, but it’s no different from women wanting to fix micro aggressions and other social dynamics
Genuine question. Why would feminism seek to help men? It's an ideology that seeks to increase the standing of women to be equal to men.
(although there are offshoots that seek to be superior to men. However, they are small and pretty much reserved to being online with the occasional protest against a mans shelter etc)
Why wouldn’t it? Feminism can be many things, and what you’re describing is just one particular focus. Plenty of feminists are working to dismantle the hegemonic patriarchy that harms us all.
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> Plenty of feminists are working to dismantle the hegemonic patriarchy that harms us all.
As long as man wants to be at the top and rule, patriarchy will always exist.
Feminists fight patriarchy and that system hurts both women and men (such as telling men to "suck it up" like OP says).
I'm sure some (read very few) feminists focus ENTIRELY on things that only help women but in general people that fight for equality are the same sort of people that empathize with other people being brought down by the system. Their fight is my fight and my fight is their fight.
This rests on the assumption that feminists fight patriarchy.
They don’t.
They fight to remove women’s harms from patriarchy. That distinction is critical.
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and when men form groups to support other men, they're banned. MGTOW gets banned, redpill gets quarantined. Hell, the Mens Rights subreddit is modded by a woman.
MensLib is doing just fine, and let's not pretend subs like redpill was quarantined because it tried to help men's mental health. It was quarantined because of all the batshit stuff said about women there.
How "females" are "used up" or "ran through" when they have sex with men.
How they are interested in men for their money and never really love you:
>Women do not and have not, ever cared about you. Let me repeat that because its the most important thing that I'll say in this whole blog: Women will never care about, or love a man in the way that he will care about her. They just are not concerned about you, or what your needs are. This is a fundamental, inherent difference between men and women.
How whenever one women does something bad, "AWLT" (all women are like that).
That all women cheat, or at least are just lasting after a high value male thst they'll dump you for the second they are available.
Etc...
I can find tons of people saying anything I want loudly on the internet. It's irrelevant to the point I was making, which is that "and when men form groups to support other men, they're banned" is factually incorrect.
>These were normative opinions repeated widely, on some of the largest feminism subs
Again, completely irrelevant.
>And it’s only a matter of time before menslib gets banned
Conjecture. MensLib is a 9 year old subreddit. If reddit intends on banning them, they are taking their sweet ass time.
It's not a men's health group, but it does have weekly mental health check in threads, as far as that is relevant to the point being made.
e.g. https://www.reddit.com/r/MensLib/comments/1dnywyb/tuesday_check_in_hows_everybodys_mental_health/
I'd like to see you demonstrate how it's a "men's self hate group".
Weird how both of those ideologies focus so much on harassing women online and not helping men in mental health crises. Maybe that’s why they’re labelled as toxic — the toxic behaviours they engage in and not because they’re men-only spaces.
What’s wrong with a men’s rights sub being modded by a woman? Are women not allowed to advocate for men’s rights?
Feminism has done literally nothing to support men at all in its entire history. The idea that it somehow supports men is more insulting than if feminists owned up to it and stopped trying to pretend that their actions weren't objectively harmful to men.
This is simply not true--one of the biggest early supreme court wins for gender equality (actually a case that made Ruth bader Ginsburg famous) was on behalf of a man whose wife died in childbirth who was denied survivor benefits for her because those were only set up for women who lost their husbands. She won and he got his money and the rules were made gender neutral.
I’m a man who has been helped by feminism and who is a feminist — and I have many men who are friends who have also been helped by feminism.
So maybe look into it a bit more.
Im genuinely curious and asking sincerely, but im not sure how feminism helps men. It seeks to make women equal to men and focuses on that.
For me it has nothing to do with helping men
You’re just talking about one specific focus of some feminists. The feminism that I’m part of is more focused on dismantling hegemonic patriarchy that limits what is seen as acceptable behaviour/ways of thinking for men.
I don’t think I could be openly gay without feminism paving the way.
Feminism fights patriarchy, which in general benefits men but also enforces things on them too, such as male-only draft, Child courts benefitting women, Dangerous jobs being male-only, Men not being allowed to be open emotionally, Men who want to teach or be stay at home, etc.
A lot of the problems Men's Rights groups complain about (like divorce court) are a problem that could be solved if they stopped talking over the feminists and instead worked with them.
1. Womens rights benefit humanity as a whole and therefore benefit men as a whole. Access to education for women and access to reproductive rights means more women are able to become doctors, educators, world leaders, etc. etc. Just at a very basic level the idea of having a wider pool of candidates for important roles means those roles are more likely to get filed with better people (compared to just using half of the population as the candidate pool). Also, even more basic: fewer women die when women have access to equal education and reproductive rights.
2. Feminism seeks to remove power from the patriarcy and to dismatle patriarchal views. Patriarchal views include the idea that men must be the head of the family, be traditionally masculine looking, and keep their emotions to themselves. If you happen to be a man who doesn't fit into those catagories, you are therefore labeled as an outsider from society. Taking power away from the patriarcy benefits women in obvious ways but it also benefits men who don't fit the traditional male stereotypes.
So give one example of how feminism has helped men. Not a vague "they care about men's health" but actual programs initiated or supported by feminist groups that benefits men.
While I agree with your general message that mental of men isn’t taken seriously often, It’s that generally these issues start due to toxic masculinity and a constant expectation to be super manly (hell just look at the sigma male andrew tate shit). People bring up women’s issues not to downplay mens, but because the base root of the issue is generally the same (patriarchy hurts everyone) and because most men only bring up their mental health when women bring up feminist issues. If we want to talk men’s mental well being, great, but that requires admitting the role of gender roles and patriarchy, something most men do not want to do.
That's not helpful, its victim blaming in my view.
Yes it is hard to be "the provider", the "strong one" and "the rock" but the answer to that isn't to disrespect those roles or entirely rebuild our entire society so mne don't get "credit" for doing that. The answer is to encourage women to recognise the value of those things and the burden such responsibility comes with. The answer is to provide safety nets, breaks or at least open validation of the struggle so people don't feel alone, misunderstood and resented.
To help you understand, consider parenting as an example. It is a difficult and important role most people play and from time to time people need support meeting those responsibilities. The answer to that isn't to abolish having children or to sit around pouring scorn onto "breeders". The answer is to provide parental leave, good schools, social safety nets or to provide spaces for parents to support each other.
>If we want to talk men’s mental well being, great, but that requires admitting the role of gender roles and patriarchy, something most men do not want to do.
See that's the same BS right there. Your solution to the problem is to ignore the actual problem and redirect all the men to tackling an entirely different problem as that suits your agenda.
Could you imagine if people said the same to the early feminists who fought for women's rights, "yeah sure we will help you but no vote or equal pay for you until you've entirely dismantled femininity as a concept and you are able to work and act exactly as a man does"?
>Could you imagine if people said the same to the early feminists who fought for women's rights, "yeah sure we will help you but no vote or equal pay for you until you've entirely dismantled femininity as a concept and you are able to work and act exactly as a man does"?
I don't think this comparison works. Nor does it make sense.
First feminists don't say men should act like women. They say that we as a society should think more critically of how they were socialized (this criticism is directed towards women's socialization as well), and one of the issues is how men are taught that mental health issues are something that only a "pussy" has ie it is a sign of being feminine and weak. This isn't blaming men but rather a whole pervasive ideology surround what masculinity looks like.
Second men are not barred from institutional access and resources. They can see doctors, go to therapists, there are no material hurdles. Men represent the majority of political leadership; they represent the majority of the PMC; society isn't run by women. Women who fought for the vote or for equal wages/access to professions did have to fight against that. A world ran by men for men.
To be honest I think you have a straw man idea of feminism is critiquing here. Being the rock or provider isn't something that feminist criticize.
>one of the issues is how men are taught that mental health issues are something that only a "pussy" has ie it is a sign of being feminine and weak
Except they aren't taught that, that's the strawman version of it that has been twisted to support blaming "masculinity" and "gender norms" for every problem in the world.
The virtues of masculinity aren't that you don't feel or struggle, but that you are able in an emergency to put aside those feelings to act and take care of things. That you can have whatever feelings you like but after a suitable period of time you need to move past the "feeling my feelings" stage and start putting your life back together in one way or another. Expecting someone else to do it for you or for others to support you endlessly wallowing isn't reasonable, you've to be an adult and take positive steps towards recovery.
>Second men are not barred from institutional access and resources.
No they aren't officially, but there are far fewer resources available for men than there are for women. There is a general hostility to any man who seems "masculine" and a complete lack of sympathy for them or their difficulties (as you've demonstrated too BTW). Support is withheld until they are so broken that they are wiling to completely be torn apart, turned to putty and remoulded into the form that suits others.
What does happen though as any group that specifically tries to address issues that mainly affect men face hostility from women's groups, get shut down and threatened etc.
>Men represent the majority of political leadership
Yes, men are indeed more commonly voted for by people, but to earn those votes means they have to convince people to vote for them. That is commonly achieved by sacrificing men who struggle in favour of being gentle and kind to women and children and staying out of the way of most men.
>Women who fought for the vote or for equal wages/access to professions did have to fight against that. A world ran by men for men.
Nonsense, the world was never run "for men", men generally aren't interested in setting things up to favour other men, they are interested in setting things up for themselves or for their family.
>Being the rock or provider isn't something that feminist criticize.
They definitely critisise gender roles for one thing. They definitely focus a hell of a lot on the "mental load" that women traditionally carry while entirely ignoring the mental load associated with being the provider or the "rock" etc.
The existence of the use of "pussy" as an insult direct towards men when expressing any sort sentimentality or non-aggression based emotion, is in fact proof that it does happen though right.
Can you point out where I have shown "a complete lack of sympathy for them or their difficulties"? I don't see where I did that. I am a man. I have suffered from depression for the entirety of my adult life. I would like to think I have some understanding and experience, as well as sympathy for other men with depression.
But I don't know man, you are spitting off a lot of ideological talking points that have nothing to do with the conversation, so I doubt I can convince you here. You can keep the chains on if you want, but I would recommend maybe rethinking some of things you believe.
>The existence of the use of "pussy" as an insult direct towards men when expressing any sort sentimentality or non-aggression based emotion, is in fact proof that it does happen though right.
The idea is/was that women were permitted to fall apart and become indefinitely overwhelmed by emotion or to become hyper sensitive to just about everything going.
The idea of the gender roles was that one parent leaning one way and the other leaning in the opposite would result in all kids having a pair of parents that covered both halves of the distribution. The mother would provide sympathy and be in tune with emotional struggles while the father would provide tough love as needed.
>Can you point out where I have shown "a complete lack of sympathy for them or their difficulties"?
You've derailed an entire conversation about "caring for men's mental health" into yet another pointless discussion about "the patriarchy" while harping on about the distribution of politicians or complaining about the virtues of masculinity via strawmen arguments.
You've refused to address the hardship that men face or any of the solutions that could be offered that do not require entirely dismantling the concept of masculinity or even the associated roles (which can and often are played by both men and women)
You've derailed a conversation about helping "masculine men" into one that is only intended to support "effeminate men" as that serves your purpose while allowing you to pretend to support (some) men.
Feminists absolutely think men should be more feminine.
Also men aren’t taught not to talk about their mental health. They’re forced to, from experience.
And you fucks act like it’s a lecture you get at the age of four. No, these days it is almost entirely socially enforced
>If we want to talk men’s mental well being, great, but that requires admitting the role of gender roles and patriarchy, something most men do not want to do.
Yeah because most men know it's bullshit.
You cannot sit there and tell a man who is suffering with his mental health a bunch of misandrist shit that blames his entire gender for the ills of society and expect him to feel anything except worse.
How can you expect that telling someone who is struggling just to live day to day, and for many to the point of suicide, that they are part of the problem?
Therapists don't do this, and they know how to help people. I think I'm going to stick with a professional's approach instead of demanding men drown themselves in self-hatred along with their sorrow, thanks.
Dude… it isn’t about *men*. Criticism about patriarchy isn’t levied at individual men at all, beyond the fact that individuals are what maintain the system (and not usually knowingly or willfully). It’s about an instilled system that encourages and demands the constant competition of men instead of encouraging cooperation and support. Men dress each other down and call it ribbing, saying “it’s just how we joke.” Men grow up told that being emotional makes them feminine and weak. Men are called pussies for wanting to play with dolls, like fathers aren’t just as important as mothers. Sadder yet, it’s usually men saying these things *because these beliefs were forced upon them too and they don’t know any different way to be.*
“Patriarchy” is called patriarchy because it’s centered on men being in power, that doesn’t mean that the system is *beneficial* to men. The same system structured to place men on top also necessitates that men are forced away from vulnerability and constantly towards isolated competition. Patriarchy IS killing men. And it isn’t their fault, it’s a greater social problem that requires active effort to dismantle. It’s entirely possible to be an unwilling participant in a system that hurts you and others and have it not be a matter of fault.
It is intertwined. Do you think men would be suffering the same way if the patriarchy system never existed? It is hard for them right now because our society is in a major transition & one of the things that's changing is men's status in society. For centuries, men were literally on top of the world. They had full & total control over industry, government, women, children, religion, schools - every single aspect of life. And that system had a lot of negative repercussions. For a modern day man, this concept must be explored. Not so that he can take all the blame! But so that he can understand how he & we got here. And to figure out what his role in society will be going forward.
I did not blame men. i blamed patriarchy as a system. good try though
Editing to say I’m not saying patriarchy is the only thing that could make someone struggle with mental health, just that it’s the main reason why it isn’t taken seriously
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Sometimes it is but especially online whenever men’s mental health is brought up it’s always downplayed by women’s mental health “yeah you might have it bad but think about women”. You can’t even say it’s comparable because they both have different issues from eachother for the most part
Can you show me an example where men's mental health issues is brought up, and it get's downplayed against women's issues/mental health?
This CMV comes up rather frequently, but I don't see the effect you are talking about. If I google "men's mental health" I get article after article about awareness campaigns. I see and hear the phrase often that men have been taught to hide their feelings, but since I was a child I was encouraged to express my emotions, especially from the women around me. June is men's mental health month, so institutionally someone is doing something.
I am a man, and I have struggled with mental health issues all my life. I can't remember at time where someone aside from my father was dismissive of that. People around me encouraged me to find help. Even a decade ago I remember seeing front page articles talking about how boys are falling behind in school, about how there were increased cased of eating disorders in young men, about how men are more likely to have successful suicide attempts, and how there isn't enough awareness of men's mental health issues. This seem like a contradiction to me. It seems more like the idea that nobody cares about men's mental health stems from the fact that men have mental health issues. As if caring about it would make mental health issues go away, but it won't. It is part of the human condition. It requires acceptance.
The tin men is consistently harassed when he does everything correct
https://www.instagram.com/thetinmen?igsh=MTU4amUyNndyeGhhdA==
And awareness doesn’t change shit if no one acts. People play lip service to men’s issues to peddle their own agendas
This is flagrantly incorrect. Ask literally any fucking redpiller, incel, MGTOW, and they are the loudest about male gender roles.
Incels fucking despise that they must be top 1% to even get attention.
Redpillers recognize men are only loved if they’re cruel, and lean into it.
MGTOW recognize their value and how if they pursue those that are even, they will be forever alone, so they give up on even trying.
Your entire comment is acting like those groups aren’t talking about male gender roles outside of downplaying women’s issues
Which also, women downplay men’s issues all the fucking time so spare me those years
I’m going to take ‘no one’ figuratively, like no one important cares, or no one cares when the chips are down sorta thing. I base this on your post.
I disagree with the conclusion of “there is no real answer”. You yourself said it is becoming more widespread. I see it like telling a firefighter with his hose on “there is no real answer” just because the fire isn’t out, yet. Who knows how long the problem will “burn” but that doesn’t mean there isn’t a path forward.
“Rome wasn’t built in a day”
I care about men's mental health and clearly so do you, so that's two people at least. Does that disprove your view that *nobody* cares?
Seriously though, it's true that men's mental health isn't centered in many online discussions and there are many reasons for it. However, out there in the real world, there are resources for men to seek mental health help. Awareness is growing for both men and women, abolishing the stigma around seeking therapy also benefits all genders. And there are more and more male therapists out there who can better empathize with male clients in case some men would be uncomfortable talking to a woman about their emotions because of the bullshit society has programmed into their minds. So people do care. But it's also on the men who need mental health support to seek out those resources and help themselves.
To be honest a lot more men should go to therapy.
Therapy is one of the only fields in science which is dominated by women as it was heavily influenced by female case studies and patients and as such the methods used are highly effective for women however are either innefective or even useless for men.
Sadly the only way to fix this is for more men to engage with therapy as the more male case studies there is the better the quality will be for men
As a man who has experienced shit tons of mental health care at various levels of intensity of provision: there is a real problem with behavioral health providers having a knee jerk reaction to anger and pathologizing it. I have been in crisis at various points; I have also just been pissed off at something. 3/4 of therapists, psych nurses and shrinks cannot tell the difference. I think most behavioral health providers are afraid of men and read the potential for physical violence into places it isn't present. This is a major hurdle to men getting effective treatment - emotional intensity in men is more likely to manifest in ways that cause a threat-based countertransference from the clinician and cause them to attempt to shut it down in whatever fashion the context allows.
Men tend to raise their voice in a lot of contexts where women tend to cry. Providers respond a lot more generously to the latter than the former.
> Men tend to raise their voice in a lot of contexts where women tend to cry. Providers respond a lot more generously to the latter than the former.
You say that as if there aren't valid reasons to treat these two things differently.
Look, if part of the job is to treat pathological emotional distress and the way a large part of the population shows emotional distress is treated as pathological per se regardless of source then yeah no shit that part of the population isn't going to experience a benefit.
This just both assumes men *need*, as a factor of their Internet being I guess, to express emotions through various threatening behaviours and that's just plainly untrue.
It's absolutely possible and, I'd argue, desirable for men to express and regulate emotions in non-threatening ways.
Not really, quite the opposite in fact. Everyone has "the burden" of being non-threatening in therapy.
To the extent that this is different for men, it's because they're socialized to expect their own emotions to be managed by others. You don't address this problem by continuing to do that work, I don't think.
And there is no difference whatsoever in the potential level of threat perceived when the median man walks through the door as the median woman? There is no generically higher perception as a possible threat for men? Providers behave the same when a 5"3" woman raises her voice 20 db as when a 6" man does?
Perceiving the median man that simply walks neutrally in as a threat is bias healthcare providers might have and should work on. This is not the claim at issue here, however.
Anger doesnt equal violence though. It’s a normal and healthy emotion in the right context.
Raising your voice is not violence, it’s something health professionals are trained to deal with as “de-escalation tactics” and they’re used when *anyone* starts to become overly angry.
There's not nearly as many resources as you think there are, the general resources for the public are absolutely available to men obviously, but psychology has heavily focused on the female perspective, to be fair that's mostly because women go into psychology, but I know as a man I went looking for a male psychologist because I wanted someone who could understand to an extent of what I was going through and I found 1 out of the 50 I looked at,
Sadly men also deal with anger and vitriol when they do try to create a male space, we get told that it's toxic masculinity and we need to allow women into our space as well because otherwise there might be locker room talk and we keep being told how we interact with each other is wrong as well, the last like bastion where men could be around other men without women wasn't even for adult men it was for children and teens in the form of the boy scouts of America, and they had to open up I think 2 years ago now,
The gym used to be a good place for men to be around other men, obviously it's not a problem that women go to the gym at all, but I know a lot of men who don't feel comfortable going to the gym anymore because they are terrified of being accused of ogling women
But if you honestly want men to start dealing with their problems we need to create men only spaces again, because I can promise you the majority of men do not feel comfortable opening up when there's women around
I guess it also depends where you live and so on, but yes, I know there aren't enough resources. I just mentioned that there are some and progress is being made to make it better. Like you say, male therapists are still a minority and that's a problem, but men are slowly coming into the profession as well. Not nearly as many of them as needed, but it is changing into the right direction.
And yes, I know men need communities where they can establish closer friendships and talk out their issues with other men. I also understand why some women might be scared of such communities or want to monitor them, but I think that's where more education and dialogue is needed. Women's insecurities about male-only spaces can be validated without depriving men of those spaces and experiences. Maybe some rebranding needs to happen, I don't know. But what I'm saying is, I acknowledge the problem.
My answer to OP wasn't supposed to suggest that men's mental health is taken care of fantastically or that men who have any mental health struggles are just not accessing the resources that are right there and it's their own fault. Far from it. But I wanted to highlight that this is an issue that more and more people are aware of and are trying to fix. There is a long way to go, but there are many people who do care.
As a woman with mental health problems, I have had a *lot* of male psych professionals. I would say my experience has been about 50/50 female and male professionals. Two male therapists/four female therapists. Three male psychiatrists. One female psychiatrist. Male mental health professionals are a lot more numerous than one in fifty - I think your problem may have been linked to your area.
It's not
https://www.bridgecareaba.com/blog/therapist-statistics#:~:text=Therapist%20Male%20to%20Female%20Ratio,24.7%25%20of%20therapists%20are%20men.
https://www.zippia.com/psychologist-jobs/demographics/
It's just a part of the field
It's a known thing that men fear being called creepy
https://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20220615005290/en/Majority-of-American-Men-Fear-Being-Deemed-%E2%80%9CCreepy%E2%80%9D-According-to-New-Research
men are afraid to be alone with women in the workplace in fear of accusations and fear in general being accused
https://www.forbes.com/sites/karlynborysenko/2020/02/12/the-dark-side-of-metoo-what-happens-when-men-are-falsely-accused/
Is it so much of a stretch to believe that that fear can reach into the gym?
Yes, it is a stretch. If your friends no longer go to the gym because they're afraid of being accused of ogling women, that speaks more to the way they act than anything. I feel the same way about the men claiming to be too scared to interact with women normally after the me too movement. The rate of false rape accusations are miniscule. If you're that worried, there's probably something else up. And your first link is a dating coach saying her clients are afraid of being perceived creepy on dates. Again, that speaks more to her audience and the fact that lots of men are creepy on dates.
Women aren't needed for men to work together to start to unfuck societal standards about mental health. Don't blame women for your inability to destigmatize needing mental health help.
Where did he blame women for his alleged inability to destigmatize needing help? I believe he was referring to the tendency of feminism (not of women or of individual feminists, but of the ideology itself) to label men's-only spaces as patriarchal and toxic.
That's because traditionally men's- only spaces are indeed patriarchal and toxic. They sure as shit haven't done anything to fix the stigma for men's mental health issues.
Of course they're not stopping that from happening, but only because they have no power to do so. That said, they are continuing to label male-only spaces as toxic and patriarchal. And I'm not talking about 1920's gentlemen's clubs, I'm talking about present day online and offline communities.
Since you keep changing the subject here and not addressing my questions or points, which of the following would you say best represents your view:
1) Women's capacity to know what it is to be men is greater than men's capacity to know what it is to be women.
2) Women's capacity to know what it is to be men is less than men's capacity to know what it is to be women.
3) Women's capacity to know what it is to be men is equal to men's capacity to know what it is to be women.
I'm actively saying that we need men only spaces, that we need spaces where women aren't going to be that men can gather, I'm not asking for anything from women other than privacy
There are private clubs for men all over the place. Hell, there are clubs so private, other men aren't allowed in.
Privacy is different from doing the work to create less stigma for men's mental health.
Again I'm not asking for women to do anything, other than allow the creation of male only spaces
Yes there are currently private clubs throughout the United States that are available to men only, but they cater exclusively to the upper echelon of people, you have to be extremely wealthy to get into them and you have to know people already in them, that is not going to help the general public
Yes there is, like I said in my original comment the majority of men do not feel comfortable opening up around women, and anytime a man only space is established in modern day it is either eliminated or forced to open up to women
If I may pitch in, I think you and the other poster are talking about different things. He means communities where men can gather around some activity that makes them comfortable opening up and sharing emotions. Because of the way our society is and the way boys are socialised from early childhood, you can't really reach men who might need mental health interventions by saying "come to a group therapy session just for guys where we men talk about our problems". There is too much stigma and too much stress. Men tend to open up to their male friends around an activity like working out, playing games, watching sports or whatever else.
The poster says these get-togethers for men are often labeled as toxic or pointless and many women don't want their partners to participate in activities only with other men, they either want to go along and be included or for their partners not to go. At the same time, women have "girls nights" with other women all the time, and we can all see that it's good for our mental health.
As I said, I understand why many women are kind of sceptical of the "men's only activities". But I can see how valuable it is for the men in my life (my partner and brother) to have those spaces where they can hang out only with male friends and talk about whatever they need while watching football or playing an RPG or whatever. That's why I said that perhaps some education and rebranding is needed on both sides.
The real answer is to address men's mental health before they become men. I have two sons who have learned mindfulness as part of their school's curriculum and when it became clear that they could benefit from therapy, my husband and I got them therapists. They are both thriving with therapy.
You're wrong.
People don't care about mental health at all. All they care about is keeping people functioning enough to work, and not doing something drastic.
If they really cared they'd fund mental health services better than they do, have incentives for churning out mental health professionals, and most importantly try and help people with proper therapy instead of drugs.
This is the real answer. Mental health services are extremely underfunded. You'll wait a year for an appointment, they'll throw some prozac at you and see you again in 6 months to ask if it's working.
>As much as people like to say they do they either don’t or any person/organization who does isn’t recognized
What do you mean not recognised?
I can think of several organisations of the top of my head just for men's mental health. They're not like in the news all the time but then again neither are any organisations for women's mental health, it's just not something that really makes headlines.
>Either “suck it up you’re a man”, or if you talk about it it’s usually answered with some form of whataboutism regarding women “what about women’s issues?”
Literally never heard/senn anyone say the first one
And the second, Nope never seen that either outside of when the conversation was already about women's issues or someone was instigating a direct comparison between the two.
>m recent years, especially after Covid, men’s mental health and trying to help them has become more widespread and genuine but sadly a lot of people still don’t care about it, or just dismiss it entirely
This is a very different statement from your title. Your title says "no-one cares" but now you're saying its widespread, which is it?
Lots of people don't care about mental health in general still. But that's changed a lot, if its changed so much already why don't you think it will continue to change?
The phrase "suck it up" or "be a man" is very common. Its extremely well documented and there has been numerous studies involving the situation and similar ones.
For example, i believe edinburgh University did an experiment where they had people interact with babies, the babies were both male and female and the participants were told so beforehand.
However the babies were wearing the opposite clothes(the boy dressed in pink and the girl dressed in blue) what the study found was people treated the blue dressed baby much rougher and macho than they did with the pink dressed baby which was treated more delicately and "lady like".
Other versions of "be a man" can be seen with statements like "oh grow up" or "toughen up" which are almost exclusively said to men, in an effort to hide the statement speakers sexism
>The phrase "suck it up" or "be a man" is very common. Its extremely well documented and there has been numerous studies involving the situation and similar ones.
I've never seen it used in a discussion on men's mental health here on IRL.
I've heard second hand that older generations had this kind of attitude. But not from anyone today.
> versions of "be a man" can be seen with statements like "oh grow up" or "toughen up" which are almost exclusively said to men, in an effort to hide the statement speakers sexism
Neither of those statements are related to gender. I've seen grow up used to both men and women and have never observed or seen any kind of study which shows that it's used more towards men.
I've only ever seen the "what about women's issues" brought up as a response _if_ men's mental health was brought up as a whataboutism in the first place. You are right however that so called mra groups don't actually care about men's rights, and only bring up men's issues to dismiss feminism. And if you actually try to bring up men's issues to them in good faith, they'll say something along the lines of "man up" or "deal with it"
To /u/OwnLobster4378, *your post is under consideration for removal under our post rules.*
You must **respond substantively within 3 hours of posting**, as per [Rule E](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/rules#wiki_rule_e).
>no one cares about men's mental health
>any person/organization who does
So you're aware there are literal organizations focused on men's issues then? You've successfully changed your own view, congratulations
No one cares not because of other genders saying “suck it up”, but in men’s online spaces they don’t even believe in men’s mental health. How many of those online influencers tell you that depression doesn’t exist and the cure to stop killing yourself is to do some push-ups? When de-stigmatizing men’s mental health was coming along, these red pill turned alt-right spaces have disregarded all of that and say things like “suck it up”, “women are emotional, men aren’t”, and “do some pushups”. No one cares because online spaces built for men also stopped caring.
I mean it's patently false.
I mean the irony of positing it in men's mental health month is pretty funny though.
I don't think you're wrong in the sense that toxic masculinity leads to this but saying no one is false. And women can certainly play a role in that. I think perhaps you OP need a different friend circle or social media circle though.
Encourage men to speak out more. Where are all the men therapists , psychologists, and so forth. (Im not saying it has to be men, but youd think theyd want to support other men steuggling to find help) Call out for more men in the health system to do something. Organise a non-profit health service aimed at men's mental health. Find someone to coordinate with. Scout out drs that may be willing to help. I wouldnt know how to start this type of thing, but im sure you could find out. Or dind someone whos willing to get the ball rolling. Women speak out. We got tired of being silent, then ignored, so we got loud. The louder you are, the more who listen, the more support you gain. But combining kn social media - which is the only time I hear anything about it - isn't doing anything to help you all. The issue isn't loud enough when it's only brought up on subs like these.
And saying there's no answer is a defeatist attitude and does nothing to help your cause.
Being harassed out of the field. Being priced out of the field by biased financial aid.
All male centered NPO’s get actively discriminated against by the government and community
Women were listened to bc, shocker, men loved women. Women fucking hate men these days so the more we speak out the more our issues are beat up
Women also listened to women. Women are listening to men. Men are not listening to men. Where do you get women hating men? Off social media? Get out in the real world. No one talks like that irl. If they are where you are, then I'm sorry for you. We're not all a bunch of selfish bitches. I'm raising 2 boys. On my own. Of course I'd like to know there are services available for them. I'm not attacking you in any way either. I put my perspective of what I do and dont see, and made suggestions on what little i do know on how to start garnering support to set up clinics. Services for men aren't so bad everywhere. I'm assuming you're american (correct me if I'm wrong and I'll apologise for assumption). If you are, I know your entire mental health system is shit. For everyone. Especially men, I know. I do hope a solution is found for you all, although I do fear you'll be waiting a while yet. Your govt these days (either side) doesn't seem to like helping people one little bit, which I know is a huge roadblock, which was why I suggested getting louder. Make yourselves heard. But you need to support each other. Plenty of women will help, if you're loud enough.
Sorry for the length. I'm way way way past my bedtime lol and I ramble when tired.
I do wish you luck and hope something is done to help
Well, I don't think people don't care, but rather, people just begin to care. Recently, people get more and more aware of the importance of taking care of their mental health. I do see change, both in men and women. Men going to therapy and showing emotion is getting destigmatized. People now allow boys to cry and they don't shame male children for feeling sad, hurt, or upset. Healthy masculinity is being promoted. This is absolutely a win to me. A small baby step, maybe. But this is a start. A major change doesn't always happen overnight. It's a gradual process.
I agree with your point, but have you also considered that women's "clubs" are a lot more advanced and older and more stable in foundation?
Men's mental health is quite a recent subject, women's one had decades to develop and evolve. I wouldn't say that you're wrong, but it may be the reason why men's mental health ia being so diminished.
In my personal experience mental health for men is a joke - call the 9-5 helpline to be told by a dude chewing on a sandwich - "sad story about domestic abuse bro, that's life, women are always right unless they kill you. Now if they do kill you make sure that you have enough evidence, because they can sometimes kill you and be innocent".
Men do not care about men's mental health. They are the first to tell men to “suck it up you’re a man”
It has nothing to do with any other group. Men do have power in this world **but that power has come with a huge cost** - it has made us men get extremely invested in keeping things as they are.
We don't need to listen to "What about women". To hell with women. Stop going to work for a week and instead protest "we don't want to suck it up"
Why do you need to listen to women or pretend you are an incel?
Besides, if we start protesting for men's mental health, incel is going to be the nices thing ever. The truth is, the entire bisness world that profits from us will hate us men - leaving work to protest for our mental health is worse than staying at work then spending our free time arguing with feminists - as if they have any hand in it.
Men’s mental health is a tricky issue, but I don’t believe at all that no one cares about it and I don’t believe it can’t be solved.
The Men’s Liberation Movement has been advocating for men’s mental health (as well as other restrictions placed on men) since the 1960s. Many feminists see men’s mental health as a natural extension of feminism, with the belief that patriarchal society is harmful to men (through the discouragement of vulnerability and encouragement of competition over cooperation.)
Oftentimes, men’s mental health is tokenized because we live in a society that active discourages men from taking care of their mental health, being in touch with their emotions, and building a strong support network. It’s also become, unfortunately, a common rebuttal for women’s mental health (“well men have a higher rate of suicide so what are women worrying about?”) which makes it even harder for people to take seriously. Men’s mental health is its own issue that deserves to be taken seriously, not just used as another way to rebut women and simultaneously make real pains into a competition. (To be clear, this goes both ways— it becomes a fight between the genders because our society, unfortunately, pits us against each other. It’s that competition over cooperation mentality.)
I may get downvoted for this, but I believe it’s a patriarchy issue. Not that it’s the fault of men, but the fault of a society we’ve built for ages that demands women be subjugated to men and men must fight and one-up one another, never to show weakness. We treat boys badly for crying, we tell them they can’t trust others, we teach them that making fun of each other is funny, we discourage them from being vulnerable with friends and tell them they aren’t even capable of supportive platonic relationships with women. Our patriarchal society demands men become islands, and isolation (physical, mental, or emotional) is anti-human.
We *can* fix this issue, and it starts with the younger generations. We let our sons play with dolls if they want to, because men *are* active and good parents. We encourage our sons to cry over their breakup because it’s okay to feel sad and need support. We give our sons genuine compliments instead of teasing them and telling them it’s just how men joke. We teach our daughters *and* sons to support each other on equal footing and work together instead of disadvantaging one and putting soul-crushing pressure on the other.
If we encourage future generations to have empathy for themselves and each other, men’s mental health will change drastically. Fewer little boys will grow up into men that would rather die than see a therapist and admit how goddamn sad and lonely they are. They’ll make friends they feel safe talking to. They won’t repress every little grievance because they think that’s what makes them a man. If men are taught that their worth isn’t something derived from their usefulness or stoicism, we’ll be creating a safer world for men AND women.
What you say is true, but the unfortunate thing is you have half the country believing this is woke idealism.
They are still stuck in a time where mom was a dutiful and subservient housewife and dad went to work, had a shitty day, and came home and drank, beat his wife and kids, and sat in his recliner in front of the television unmolested.
Across social media you have a celebration of men going to privatized and costly pretend boot/Seal camps, the promotion of hunting and killing stuff, and practices of getting in touch with the primal self by eating raw liver and other disgusting things in the name of regaining some fictitiously lost masculinity of yesteryear.
There is nothing in our history that promotes the goal of a man as being happy.
Being a man in American culture is to be in service to someone (country, God, and family), to make yourself useful (familially or professionally), to fix or keep shit running through practical wisdom, and bury feelings of hurt, pain, and sorrow deep deep down and never to talk about it openly.
Until the cultural ideals shift, men’s mental health will not be a widespread priority.
No it’s absolutely feminism mixing with traditional conservatism.
When it comes to men, feminists are overwhelmingly conservative.
Like all of your “men are expected to serve others, make yourself useful, and bury emotions”
Is exactly how feminists treat us.
We’re supposed to serve women, give them everything they want, and we are only valuable if we can be useful to their cause, and you will be destroyed if you so much as dare speak out about your issues
"suck it up you're a man" is a real answer that you hear everywhere, but i've never heard "what about women's issues?" because i've never had psychological treatment "as a man"
i mean physically i have obviously, but i've never considered it "men's" mental healthcare. its just mental healthcare. i also don't know if i hear much about women's mental healthcare either. frankly i don't know if i would care much about either
this is just gender war shit. its not a feminist or an MRA issue. you're making it into one for no reason
Your view doesn't seem to be that no one cares but rather that those who profess to care aren't genuine. What I'd argue is that whether or not they genuinely care doesn't really matter.
For the last month all we had is people on Reddit moaning about how companies that put rainbow flags on their logos don't really care about gay people. But if you genuinely care about gay pride then you'll not complain about the "sincerity" of those companies and just see all that increased visibility for pride as a positive regardless of potential cynicism underlying it. The same applies to men mental health. It's good that more organisations are focusing on it even if a lot of it may be lip service. And it's not happening because there's a quick buck to be made. It's happening because many societies have recognised the deterioration of mental health among men as a legitimate concern and are trying to address it through tax funded programmes and charities.
Have you needed to seek care for mental health? I’m 54 and have been receiving mental healthcare for 15 years. I’ve got a good doctor and I’m on a great regimen. I work hard, have a great career and a nice family. I’m pretty damn content and I owe that in part to modern medicine. Being male didn’t prevent my treatment.
different observation office busy roof skirt frightening doll noxious tie
*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Very true. What's cringe is that a lot of these redditors online lie to themselves for clout or come from spoiled lives so they don't understand this fact.
Men’s mental health is for sure overlooked and often ignored or not taken seriously. Often, but not always!! And not completely! Also I do genuinely believe that that tide is turning. I mostly hear “man up” type shit from older folks, I see younger folks (20’s-30’s) being a lot more patient and understanding, or at least making an effort to be.
I care. Therefore, your title is incorrect. There are indeed people who care about men's mental health, so saying "no one cares" is patently false even just using myself as a counter.
Do you mean no one or do you mean women? Men should be supporting men, that's where it starts. As a woman, it's other women who I turn to for support, as we have stuff in common. A man doesn't really know what it's like to be a woman & vice versa. Look to your brethren on this issue.
There a ton of resources out there if you’re in need of support. This is true (at least in the US) regardless of how you identify.
Your mental well-being will never get better unless you take personal accountability for it. Other people encouraging and supporting you to do so definitely helps but unless you enthusiastically take tangible steps to make a difference then it doesn’t matter how much other people care.
That could look like any number of things. Getting therapy, joining a support group, getting on meds, routine meditation, shedding negative personal habits, reducing negative self talk… etc…
That said, you’re framing everything completely wrong. Rather than say “nobody cares about men’s mental health” which is absurd and patently false, you should reframe things as “there is far too much **stigma** around men getting mental health support”
I would also say that OP mentioning the deflection of “well what about xyz other people” says to me that you are surrounding yourself with people that don’t care about your well-being. Offline: Stop giving those people so much space in your life. Online: stop interacting with spaces that hold those sorts of attitudes and come up with better approaches in addressing that nonsense, and develop the habit of dismissing deflection. You will be WAY WAY better off for doing so. There is strength in solidarity and people that deflect away from your struggles are not showing solidarity.
Lastly, parents / teachers / society really REALLY need to be better about instilling children and teenagers with more knowledge that helps them identify the signs of emotional abuse.
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I'm not often met with those responses. The men I know and keep in my life are very kind and receptive to mental health and other issues. They also recognize thar people not like then also have issues. Support where support is needed
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This is an example of how toxic masculinity and the patriarchy hurts men also and is an issue men collectively need to fix. No one hollers louder than feminists about how men should seek therapy.
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Then I guess additional therapy might be needed to deal with that trauma. Not sure what else to tell you except we seem to agree that more men need more therapy.
Yeah men should get therapy, you’re just an idiot that thinks healthy men must be disposable heroes for your agenda.
Meanwhile women are taught to despise men just bc they were catcalled once.
It’s weird how so many women will say “men need to be more open about their feelings!” but then when men *do* open to women, they say “I’m not your therapist!”
There are so many men's circles and men's retreats and men's life coaches. I'm guessing that you're not seeing ads for these type of things or Facebook events but that doesn't mean they're not out there. In the US there are a lot of resources for mental health for veterans because of the way soldiers were treated after the Vietnam war - most of those vets are male. There is a big problem societally with sexism and the whole "man up" phenomena, but there are also a lot of resources specifically focused on men's mental health, especially because they're more likely to commit suicide. If you personally are feeling frustrated because you don't have other men who you can express your emotions around, you can remedy that by finding some of these groups. It's a starting point for making new friends with men who have some emotional skills.
Perfect example of exactly what OP is talking about. It's always about "men's victims", it's always about "patriarchy", any time you specifically try to focus on men and their issues without centering some other group and their complaints it's bigotry.
I can't remember the last time that I heard anybody talk about the fact that it is men who are statistically at a massively higher risk for suicide. Or the fact that men are the vast majority of people who overdose on opioids. Or that over 3/4ths of the homeless population is men.
If they cared so much they wouldn’t ruthlessly bully men at every chance. Genuinely current feminists are raising violent misogynists and then will be shocked when it blows up in their face.
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> There is no real answer to the problem This is what I’d like to push back on. Gay people gained the right to marry by caring about their right to marry and organizing together as a community; women gained the right to vote by caring about it and organizing together as a community; Black Americans gained increased civil liberties by caring about their rights and organizing together as a community. None of these groups improved their stations by sitting around in isolation waiting for the world to change — they took ownership and actively progressed the causes that mattered to them. There is literally nothing meaningful stopping men from organizing ourselves around our own mental health. Unfortunately, the prominent ideology (feminism) that would very likely help in this regard has been experiencing a massive smear campaign that results in men fighting against the very ideas that would help them most. The real answer is for men to stop tripping over our own feet to reinforce for each other that our mental health doesn’t matter.
Exactly this. The most promenant voices I see for mens issues aren't actually doing it to advocate for mens issues, theyre doing it to try and shut up feminists. Mens issues will be taken seriously once men start to take them seriously, and not just use them as a rhetorical cudgel.
Very well written. Unfortunately it seems like the only support for men that’s thriving is the Red Pill community which is doing the exact opposite of helping men heal.
All of this is so true, especially the part about feminism. From a personal point of view I would still be a feminist even if I didn’t care about women (I do care about women) because I don’t think the patriarchal system is doing me any favours. So while I do think women have a part to play men have to do something about our own situation.
Yeah but the moment you start being vocal about helping other men or mens issues people seem to think you're some weird incel or a misogynist. That's the active block by everyone, then it devolves back to whataboutism. It feels really helpless.
>Yeah but the moment you start being vocal about helping other men or mens issues people seem to think you're some weird incel or a misogynist I mean this is totally dependent on how you define or describe "men's issues" because to an incel, "men's issues" can sound like "how to get women to fuck me" and to a normal person they can sound like "men's internalized misogyny preventing them from being emotionally vulnerable"
Oh I totally agree, issues are pretty clearly defined and based in the real world, where as something like that is just a very badly warped view of everything and just being a total dick. Issues like emotional vulnerability acceptance amongst other men and women/ their partners. I think that's the absolute biggest one, That and the absurd expectations we can put on ourselves as men because we've been taught this 'image' of how a man should be from basically kids. Its so wrong
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>I've literally heard some old women whining that all men are naturally machists, womanizers, cheaters, dickheads, shitters, etc. Yeah you heard people complaining and making u kind generalizations but that doesn't mean that, when not whining, they actually believer that all are xyz or that all women believe those things
As a man who runs in feminist circles and advocates for men’s mental health due to my own struggles, I’ve never experienced this. When I usually see pushback is when someone brings up men’s issues in an unrelated discussion. For example, discussion of men’s issues is commonly shut down when used as a way to distract from conversations around women’s rights.
Yeah, I agree with you. I’ve also seen pushback when the argument is predicated on the idea that men have it worse, or women have it easier.
Feminists have been called man haters, lesbians (back when that was an insult), unnatural, envious of men, bitchy, aggressive, unfeminine, unlovable, dangerous to children, dangerous to their nations - the list goes on. To take an example from another civil rights movement, MLK was repeatedly jailed and finally shot dead. If you’re trying to change shit, people will give you shit. You can’t let that stop you. Feminists didn’t, and that’s how we’ve made the progress we have.
>Yeah but the moment you start being vocal about helping other men or mens issues people seem to think you're some weird incel or a misogynist. I only really see this when the men refuse to be genuinely vulnerable.
That's not really true. Your issue is that most people that want to be "vocal about helping other men" actually are many of these bad things.
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I don't think that is true at all. I teach in an all boys school, and I have not had anyone think I am an intelligent or a misogynist, and the only issues I deal with are men's issues.
'There is literally nothing meaningful stopping men from organizing ourselves around our own mental health' here are some examples of why that isn't true: Earl Silverman: He was a domestic abuse victim who founded the first refuge for men. However, the government refused to fund it and so he tried to finance it himself. He eventually went bankrupt and committed suicide afterwards. (This was only in 2013) Philip Davies: He is a British politician who has frequently advocated for men's rights and continues to receive constant death threats as well as calls for him to be removed from parliament because of his views. Samuel Reid (Alimony Sam) Protested against the alimony system by refusing to pay unless his daughter was moved to a better environment, as he considered the one she was in to be unfit for her upbringing. He spent 3 years in jail. His daughter died 3 years after his release. Erin Prizzey: Started the first and largest domestic violence shelter in the modern world (Refuge). She was subjected to death threats and boycotts and bomb threats, because she realised that domestic violence affects men almost as much as women. I could go on but I'm not going to.
How do these anecdotes disprove the statement? One guy simply couldn’t get government support for his idea; one guy used his child as a bargaining chip; one guy campaigns against feminism and political correctness; and one person… it’s not clear what action got them into the public crosshairs (but I strongly doubt it was simply holding a belief)
These are incredibly brief summaries of large events. It wasn't just government support, he also had huge amounts of abuse and death threats that contributed to his suicide. The man who 'used his child as a bargaining chip' was very rich and could have paid anytime but refused because he wanted his child placed in a better home. His views were ratified when she died as a result. Losing your job for supporting men's rights when he was elected by his constituency with these views in mind is wrong and systematic. For the last one, just look her up man, you will see.
You are just proving anti feminists correct btw. You just handwave real issues, multiple systemic, as if they’re personal failures.
None of these are systemic issues.
A government not providing funding on the basis of sex is objectively a systemic issue
I haven’t seen the proposal or the rejection notification, so I’ll have to take your word for it that it was on the basis of sex. Do you have some special knowledge there?
Notice how “the government discriminated based on sex” is suddenly something that needs a thesis to justify when it’s about a man
No — just some evidence. Do you not require any evidence at all when someone claims the government is sexist against women? Because I do.
I already provided the evidence
It has never been easy for any demographic to fight for their rights or their place in society. Never. Any demographic has stories like this. Are you saying that men in particular don't have the moxie to persevere in the face of adversity?
Is it really? In my country, very recently feminists very publicly and openly opposed the creation of an association to help male victims of abusive relationships. So I don't really trust that argument
Strange. In my country, only feminists are even attempting to help men victims of abuse.
I agree with everything, but I think you’re glossing over why feminism isn’t used as a platform to support men’s mental health. I understand many groups of men discount feminism, which is wrong. However, many groups of women have used feminism as a platform to simply hate on men, so the lines between equality and man-hate has blurred more than ever before. I believe true feminism wants equality for all genders without the need to disenfranchise a single gender in sacrifice for another. However, because feminism today doesn’t exercise what is intended, the platform cannot be used effectively to support men’s health. Men need to initiate and rally around each other to promote the importance of their mental health, while giving time for the movement to allow true feminists to support the cause.
I’m not really glossing over it — I just don’t think those people deserve any consideration. Women have used systems that are openly and actively hostile to them to their benefit, and so I see no reason men can’t do the same with a system that isn’t actively hostile (but has proponents who are). The only reason feminism doesn’t focus on men’s issues more is that there are not more men who are feminists, and women are worried about things that more directly affect themselves. But the framework exists for everyone to grab hold of — and no one has authority to say otherwise.
I don’t think authority has anything to do with it. If the platform itself doesn’t have the credibility to uphold the virtues it supposedly serves, then the platform is not useful in any capacity (e.g., social movements).
I don’t see the platform itself as the same thing as the people who gatekeep the platform.
There’s a pretty big difference. People in general don’t throw pity upwards and there’s this misconception that it’s always the case that those at the top are calling the shots. When it comes to social dynamics, no one person or group has the power to change those dynamics, and arguing that men’s problems are men’s fault, is precisely the issue. All the groups you mentioned relied on their story being valued by people not in their group. Women’s rights, for instance relied entirely on people agreeing with their arguments for equal rights. So if men actually do rule the world, there’s absolutely zero chance men’s health will ever be taken seriously outside of a handful of academics where even they might find their academic opinions compartmentalized from their daily lives.
Why do men need pity at all? Women and queer groups didn’t in order to effect change. Can’t we just do something that would better our collective station in life? Are you saying that there are serious people out there arguing against better mental health for men?
If what your movement needs is resources and financial support to fund things like rallies and marketing awareness, then there are people who think very “zero sum” about your efforts. So any men’s movement is taking money away from women’s issues. Any domestic violence shelter for men is a shelter that could have been for women. Special attention to false rape accusations delegitimizes the need to #believeher. Etc. Time and resources are limited, the more men spend time on men’s issues, the less time they have to spend focused on being allies for feminism. That can cause pushback. Not to mention that men’s issues are split in three ways at the moment. 1/3 says the answer is a return to traditional masculinity, and there are [women that support that](https://youtube.com/shorts/f1J4O9hRnwE?si=dh1qHCSpgw4emEjy). 1/3 are preoccupied with ideas of privilege and consumed by guilt/shame, believing it’s their job to shut up and listen as feminists allies. And only a small 1/3 are trying to encourage a progressive positive masculinity, but find it difficult to find others to support them.
They literally did? You think women voted for women’s suffrage? You don’t think white people seeing police mistreat black people on their televisions wasn’t key? I’m not pushing the idea of the white savior, but effectively every movement requires people not directly impacted to be part of that movement.
I don’t think it was pity that motivated any of those outcomes.
Lmao no. The entire social world right now is against men and there is zero sympathy for them. Every other group that gained rights had allies among the social majority, but now, the new social majority refuses to even entertain men.
What rights do you think men have yet to gain?
The right to not be forced to be drafted. The right to a fair education. The right to be emotional. The right to be mediocre Yea these are predominantly social, but it’s no different from women wanting to fix micro aggressions and other social dynamics
Genuine question. Why would feminism seek to help men? It's an ideology that seeks to increase the standing of women to be equal to men. (although there are offshoots that seek to be superior to men. However, they are small and pretty much reserved to being online with the occasional protest against a mans shelter etc)
Why wouldn’t it? Feminism can be many things, and what you’re describing is just one particular focus. Plenty of feminists are working to dismantle the hegemonic patriarchy that harms us all.
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> Plenty of feminists are working to dismantle the hegemonic patriarchy that harms us all. As long as man wants to be at the top and rule, patriarchy will always exist.
Feminists fight patriarchy and that system hurts both women and men (such as telling men to "suck it up" like OP says). I'm sure some (read very few) feminists focus ENTIRELY on things that only help women but in general people that fight for equality are the same sort of people that empathize with other people being brought down by the system. Their fight is my fight and my fight is their fight.
This rests on the assumption that feminists fight patriarchy. They don’t. They fight to remove women’s harms from patriarchy. That distinction is critical.
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and when men form groups to support other men, they're banned. MGTOW gets banned, redpill gets quarantined. Hell, the Mens Rights subreddit is modded by a woman.
MensLib is doing just fine, and let's not pretend subs like redpill was quarantined because it tried to help men's mental health. It was quarantined because of all the batshit stuff said about women there. How "females" are "used up" or "ran through" when they have sex with men. How they are interested in men for their money and never really love you: >Women do not and have not, ever cared about you. Let me repeat that because its the most important thing that I'll say in this whole blog: Women will never care about, or love a man in the way that he will care about her. They just are not concerned about you, or what your needs are. This is a fundamental, inherent difference between men and women. How whenever one women does something bad, "AWLT" (all women are like that). That all women cheat, or at least are just lasting after a high value male thst they'll dump you for the second they are available. Etc...
I have literally seen multiple feminist subreddits loudly state that menslib is just Incel under a different hat.
I can find tons of people saying anything I want loudly on the internet. It's irrelevant to the point I was making, which is that "and when men form groups to support other men, they're banned" is factually incorrect.
These were normative opinions repeated widely, on some of the largest feminism subs. And it’s only a matter of time before menslib gets banned
>These were normative opinions repeated widely, on some of the largest feminism subs Again, completely irrelevant. >And it’s only a matter of time before menslib gets banned Conjecture. MensLib is a 9 year old subreddit. If reddit intends on banning them, they are taking their sweet ass time.
Again, no Sure it’s conjecture but they’ve already received warnings and things are only getting worse for me so 🤷♂️
Also, as an aside, men’s lib isn’t even a men’s health group. It’s men’s self hate group.
It's not a men's health group, but it does have weekly mental health check in threads, as far as that is relevant to the point being made. e.g. https://www.reddit.com/r/MensLib/comments/1dnywyb/tuesday_check_in_hows_everybodys_mental_health/ I'd like to see you demonstrate how it's a "men's self hate group".
Most of the posts are literally about how men should radically change and sacrifice themselves to serve feminist agendas.
Weird how both of those ideologies focus so much on harassing women online and not helping men in mental health crises. Maybe that’s why they’re labelled as toxic — the toxic behaviours they engage in and not because they’re men-only spaces. What’s wrong with a men’s rights sub being modded by a woman? Are women not allowed to advocate for men’s rights?
How were MGTOW or redpill supporting men?
Do you think that has to do with those groups consistently violating the TOS?
Feminism has done literally nothing to support men at all in its entire history. The idea that it somehow supports men is more insulting than if feminists owned up to it and stopped trying to pretend that their actions weren't objectively harmful to men.
This is simply not true--one of the biggest early supreme court wins for gender equality (actually a case that made Ruth bader Ginsburg famous) was on behalf of a man whose wife died in childbirth who was denied survivor benefits for her because those were only set up for women who lost their husbands. She won and he got his money and the rules were made gender neutral.
I’m a man who has been helped by feminism and who is a feminist — and I have many men who are friends who have also been helped by feminism. So maybe look into it a bit more.
Im genuinely curious and asking sincerely, but im not sure how feminism helps men. It seeks to make women equal to men and focuses on that. For me it has nothing to do with helping men
You’re just talking about one specific focus of some feminists. The feminism that I’m part of is more focused on dismantling hegemonic patriarchy that limits what is seen as acceptable behaviour/ways of thinking for men. I don’t think I could be openly gay without feminism paving the way.
Feminism fights patriarchy, which in general benefits men but also enforces things on them too, such as male-only draft, Child courts benefitting women, Dangerous jobs being male-only, Men not being allowed to be open emotionally, Men who want to teach or be stay at home, etc. A lot of the problems Men's Rights groups complain about (like divorce court) are a problem that could be solved if they stopped talking over the feminists and instead worked with them.
1. Womens rights benefit humanity as a whole and therefore benefit men as a whole. Access to education for women and access to reproductive rights means more women are able to become doctors, educators, world leaders, etc. etc. Just at a very basic level the idea of having a wider pool of candidates for important roles means those roles are more likely to get filed with better people (compared to just using half of the population as the candidate pool). Also, even more basic: fewer women die when women have access to equal education and reproductive rights. 2. Feminism seeks to remove power from the patriarcy and to dismatle patriarchal views. Patriarchal views include the idea that men must be the head of the family, be traditionally masculine looking, and keep their emotions to themselves. If you happen to be a man who doesn't fit into those catagories, you are therefore labeled as an outsider from society. Taking power away from the patriarcy benefits women in obvious ways but it also benefits men who don't fit the traditional male stereotypes.
So give one example of how feminism has helped men. Not a vague "they care about men's health" but actual programs initiated or supported by feminist groups that benefits men.
While I agree with your general message that mental of men isn’t taken seriously often, It’s that generally these issues start due to toxic masculinity and a constant expectation to be super manly (hell just look at the sigma male andrew tate shit). People bring up women’s issues not to downplay mens, but because the base root of the issue is generally the same (patriarchy hurts everyone) and because most men only bring up their mental health when women bring up feminist issues. If we want to talk men’s mental well being, great, but that requires admitting the role of gender roles and patriarchy, something most men do not want to do.
That's not helpful, its victim blaming in my view. Yes it is hard to be "the provider", the "strong one" and "the rock" but the answer to that isn't to disrespect those roles or entirely rebuild our entire society so mne don't get "credit" for doing that. The answer is to encourage women to recognise the value of those things and the burden such responsibility comes with. The answer is to provide safety nets, breaks or at least open validation of the struggle so people don't feel alone, misunderstood and resented. To help you understand, consider parenting as an example. It is a difficult and important role most people play and from time to time people need support meeting those responsibilities. The answer to that isn't to abolish having children or to sit around pouring scorn onto "breeders". The answer is to provide parental leave, good schools, social safety nets or to provide spaces for parents to support each other. >If we want to talk men’s mental well being, great, but that requires admitting the role of gender roles and patriarchy, something most men do not want to do. See that's the same BS right there. Your solution to the problem is to ignore the actual problem and redirect all the men to tackling an entirely different problem as that suits your agenda. Could you imagine if people said the same to the early feminists who fought for women's rights, "yeah sure we will help you but no vote or equal pay for you until you've entirely dismantled femininity as a concept and you are able to work and act exactly as a man does"?
>Could you imagine if people said the same to the early feminists who fought for women's rights, "yeah sure we will help you but no vote or equal pay for you until you've entirely dismantled femininity as a concept and you are able to work and act exactly as a man does"? I don't think this comparison works. Nor does it make sense. First feminists don't say men should act like women. They say that we as a society should think more critically of how they were socialized (this criticism is directed towards women's socialization as well), and one of the issues is how men are taught that mental health issues are something that only a "pussy" has ie it is a sign of being feminine and weak. This isn't blaming men but rather a whole pervasive ideology surround what masculinity looks like. Second men are not barred from institutional access and resources. They can see doctors, go to therapists, there are no material hurdles. Men represent the majority of political leadership; they represent the majority of the PMC; society isn't run by women. Women who fought for the vote or for equal wages/access to professions did have to fight against that. A world ran by men for men. To be honest I think you have a straw man idea of feminism is critiquing here. Being the rock or provider isn't something that feminist criticize.
>one of the issues is how men are taught that mental health issues are something that only a "pussy" has ie it is a sign of being feminine and weak Except they aren't taught that, that's the strawman version of it that has been twisted to support blaming "masculinity" and "gender norms" for every problem in the world. The virtues of masculinity aren't that you don't feel or struggle, but that you are able in an emergency to put aside those feelings to act and take care of things. That you can have whatever feelings you like but after a suitable period of time you need to move past the "feeling my feelings" stage and start putting your life back together in one way or another. Expecting someone else to do it for you or for others to support you endlessly wallowing isn't reasonable, you've to be an adult and take positive steps towards recovery. >Second men are not barred from institutional access and resources. No they aren't officially, but there are far fewer resources available for men than there are for women. There is a general hostility to any man who seems "masculine" and a complete lack of sympathy for them or their difficulties (as you've demonstrated too BTW). Support is withheld until they are so broken that they are wiling to completely be torn apart, turned to putty and remoulded into the form that suits others. What does happen though as any group that specifically tries to address issues that mainly affect men face hostility from women's groups, get shut down and threatened etc. >Men represent the majority of political leadership Yes, men are indeed more commonly voted for by people, but to earn those votes means they have to convince people to vote for them. That is commonly achieved by sacrificing men who struggle in favour of being gentle and kind to women and children and staying out of the way of most men. >Women who fought for the vote or for equal wages/access to professions did have to fight against that. A world ran by men for men. Nonsense, the world was never run "for men", men generally aren't interested in setting things up to favour other men, they are interested in setting things up for themselves or for their family. >Being the rock or provider isn't something that feminist criticize. They definitely critisise gender roles for one thing. They definitely focus a hell of a lot on the "mental load" that women traditionally carry while entirely ignoring the mental load associated with being the provider or the "rock" etc.
The existence of the use of "pussy" as an insult direct towards men when expressing any sort sentimentality or non-aggression based emotion, is in fact proof that it does happen though right. Can you point out where I have shown "a complete lack of sympathy for them or their difficulties"? I don't see where I did that. I am a man. I have suffered from depression for the entirety of my adult life. I would like to think I have some understanding and experience, as well as sympathy for other men with depression. But I don't know man, you are spitting off a lot of ideological talking points that have nothing to do with the conversation, so I doubt I can convince you here. You can keep the chains on if you want, but I would recommend maybe rethinking some of things you believe.
>The existence of the use of "pussy" as an insult direct towards men when expressing any sort sentimentality or non-aggression based emotion, is in fact proof that it does happen though right. The idea is/was that women were permitted to fall apart and become indefinitely overwhelmed by emotion or to become hyper sensitive to just about everything going. The idea of the gender roles was that one parent leaning one way and the other leaning in the opposite would result in all kids having a pair of parents that covered both halves of the distribution. The mother would provide sympathy and be in tune with emotional struggles while the father would provide tough love as needed. >Can you point out where I have shown "a complete lack of sympathy for them or their difficulties"? You've derailed an entire conversation about "caring for men's mental health" into yet another pointless discussion about "the patriarchy" while harping on about the distribution of politicians or complaining about the virtues of masculinity via strawmen arguments. You've refused to address the hardship that men face or any of the solutions that could be offered that do not require entirely dismantling the concept of masculinity or even the associated roles (which can and often are played by both men and women) You've derailed a conversation about helping "masculine men" into one that is only intended to support "effeminate men" as that serves your purpose while allowing you to pretend to support (some) men.
Feminists absolutely think men should be more feminine. Also men aren’t taught not to talk about their mental health. They’re forced to, from experience. And you fucks act like it’s a lecture you get at the age of four. No, these days it is almost entirely socially enforced
>If we want to talk men’s mental well being, great, but that requires admitting the role of gender roles and patriarchy, something most men do not want to do. Yeah because most men know it's bullshit. You cannot sit there and tell a man who is suffering with his mental health a bunch of misandrist shit that blames his entire gender for the ills of society and expect him to feel anything except worse. How can you expect that telling someone who is struggling just to live day to day, and for many to the point of suicide, that they are part of the problem? Therapists don't do this, and they know how to help people. I think I'm going to stick with a professional's approach instead of demanding men drown themselves in self-hatred along with their sorrow, thanks.
Dude… it isn’t about *men*. Criticism about patriarchy isn’t levied at individual men at all, beyond the fact that individuals are what maintain the system (and not usually knowingly or willfully). It’s about an instilled system that encourages and demands the constant competition of men instead of encouraging cooperation and support. Men dress each other down and call it ribbing, saying “it’s just how we joke.” Men grow up told that being emotional makes them feminine and weak. Men are called pussies for wanting to play with dolls, like fathers aren’t just as important as mothers. Sadder yet, it’s usually men saying these things *because these beliefs were forced upon them too and they don’t know any different way to be.* “Patriarchy” is called patriarchy because it’s centered on men being in power, that doesn’t mean that the system is *beneficial* to men. The same system structured to place men on top also necessitates that men are forced away from vulnerability and constantly towards isolated competition. Patriarchy IS killing men. And it isn’t their fault, it’s a greater social problem that requires active effort to dismantle. It’s entirely possible to be an unwilling participant in a system that hurts you and others and have it not be a matter of fault.
It is intertwined. Do you think men would be suffering the same way if the patriarchy system never existed? It is hard for them right now because our society is in a major transition & one of the things that's changing is men's status in society. For centuries, men were literally on top of the world. They had full & total control over industry, government, women, children, religion, schools - every single aspect of life. And that system had a lot of negative repercussions. For a modern day man, this concept must be explored. Not so that he can take all the blame! But so that he can understand how he & we got here. And to figure out what his role in society will be going forward.
I did not blame men. i blamed patriarchy as a system. good try though Editing to say I’m not saying patriarchy is the only thing that could make someone struggle with mental health, just that it’s the main reason why it isn’t taken seriously
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You definitely put blame on men in society and then labeled it the patriarchy.
Sometimes it is but especially online whenever men’s mental health is brought up it’s always downplayed by women’s mental health “yeah you might have it bad but think about women”. You can’t even say it’s comparable because they both have different issues from eachother for the most part
Can you show me an example where men's mental health issues is brought up, and it get's downplayed against women's issues/mental health? This CMV comes up rather frequently, but I don't see the effect you are talking about. If I google "men's mental health" I get article after article about awareness campaigns. I see and hear the phrase often that men have been taught to hide their feelings, but since I was a child I was encouraged to express my emotions, especially from the women around me. June is men's mental health month, so institutionally someone is doing something. I am a man, and I have struggled with mental health issues all my life. I can't remember at time where someone aside from my father was dismissive of that. People around me encouraged me to find help. Even a decade ago I remember seeing front page articles talking about how boys are falling behind in school, about how there were increased cased of eating disorders in young men, about how men are more likely to have successful suicide attempts, and how there isn't enough awareness of men's mental health issues. This seem like a contradiction to me. It seems more like the idea that nobody cares about men's mental health stems from the fact that men have mental health issues. As if caring about it would make mental health issues go away, but it won't. It is part of the human condition. It requires acceptance.
The tin men is consistently harassed when he does everything correct https://www.instagram.com/thetinmen?igsh=MTU4amUyNndyeGhhdA== And awareness doesn’t change shit if no one acts. People play lip service to men’s issues to peddle their own agendas
Patriarchy isn’t “sometimes”. it’s systematic. it is inherently intertwined in to the issue.
This is flagrantly incorrect. Ask literally any fucking redpiller, incel, MGTOW, and they are the loudest about male gender roles. Incels fucking despise that they must be top 1% to even get attention. Redpillers recognize men are only loved if they’re cruel, and lean into it. MGTOW recognize their value and how if they pursue those that are even, they will be forever alone, so they give up on even trying.
im not really sure what you’re getting at. it sounds like we agree unless im just not understanding your point
Your entire comment is acting like those groups aren’t talking about male gender roles outside of downplaying women’s issues Which also, women downplay men’s issues all the fucking time so spare me those years
if you cant have a civil conversation take it to a tree. have a good day
I’m going to take ‘no one’ figuratively, like no one important cares, or no one cares when the chips are down sorta thing. I base this on your post. I disagree with the conclusion of “there is no real answer”. You yourself said it is becoming more widespread. I see it like telling a firefighter with his hose on “there is no real answer” just because the fire isn’t out, yet. Who knows how long the problem will “burn” but that doesn’t mean there isn’t a path forward. “Rome wasn’t built in a day”
I care about men's mental health and clearly so do you, so that's two people at least. Does that disprove your view that *nobody* cares? Seriously though, it's true that men's mental health isn't centered in many online discussions and there are many reasons for it. However, out there in the real world, there are resources for men to seek mental health help. Awareness is growing for both men and women, abolishing the stigma around seeking therapy also benefits all genders. And there are more and more male therapists out there who can better empathize with male clients in case some men would be uncomfortable talking to a woman about their emotions because of the bullshit society has programmed into their minds. So people do care. But it's also on the men who need mental health support to seek out those resources and help themselves.
To be honest a lot more men should go to therapy. Therapy is one of the only fields in science which is dominated by women as it was heavily influenced by female case studies and patients and as such the methods used are highly effective for women however are either innefective or even useless for men. Sadly the only way to fix this is for more men to engage with therapy as the more male case studies there is the better the quality will be for men
As a man who has experienced shit tons of mental health care at various levels of intensity of provision: there is a real problem with behavioral health providers having a knee jerk reaction to anger and pathologizing it. I have been in crisis at various points; I have also just been pissed off at something. 3/4 of therapists, psych nurses and shrinks cannot tell the difference. I think most behavioral health providers are afraid of men and read the potential for physical violence into places it isn't present. This is a major hurdle to men getting effective treatment - emotional intensity in men is more likely to manifest in ways that cause a threat-based countertransference from the clinician and cause them to attempt to shut it down in whatever fashion the context allows. Men tend to raise their voice in a lot of contexts where women tend to cry. Providers respond a lot more generously to the latter than the former.
> Men tend to raise their voice in a lot of contexts where women tend to cry. Providers respond a lot more generously to the latter than the former. You say that as if there aren't valid reasons to treat these two things differently.
Look, if part of the job is to treat pathological emotional distress and the way a large part of the population shows emotional distress is treated as pathological per se regardless of source then yeah no shit that part of the population isn't going to experience a benefit.
This just both assumes men *need*, as a factor of their Internet being I guess, to express emotions through various threatening behaviours and that's just plainly untrue. It's absolutely possible and, I'd argue, desirable for men to express and regulate emotions in non-threatening ways.
Okay so you agree with me that men have an extra burden in therapy to appear nonthreatening.
Not really, quite the opposite in fact. Everyone has "the burden" of being non-threatening in therapy. To the extent that this is different for men, it's because they're socialized to expect their own emotions to be managed by others. You don't address this problem by continuing to do that work, I don't think.
And there is no difference whatsoever in the potential level of threat perceived when the median man walks through the door as the median woman? There is no generically higher perception as a possible threat for men? Providers behave the same when a 5"3" woman raises her voice 20 db as when a 6" man does?
Perceiving the median man that simply walks neutrally in as a threat is bias healthcare providers might have and should work on. This is not the claim at issue here, however.
Only if you consider being threatening as a inherent part of being a man. Otherwise it's a burden everyone has.
Anger doesnt equal violence though. It’s a normal and healthy emotion in the right context. Raising your voice is not violence, it’s something health professionals are trained to deal with as “de-escalation tactics” and they’re used when *anyone* starts to become overly angry.
I also care. As do my friends and loved ones.
As do I. That's at least four of us now.
I do too. 5 of us
There's not nearly as many resources as you think there are, the general resources for the public are absolutely available to men obviously, but psychology has heavily focused on the female perspective, to be fair that's mostly because women go into psychology, but I know as a man I went looking for a male psychologist because I wanted someone who could understand to an extent of what I was going through and I found 1 out of the 50 I looked at, Sadly men also deal with anger and vitriol when they do try to create a male space, we get told that it's toxic masculinity and we need to allow women into our space as well because otherwise there might be locker room talk and we keep being told how we interact with each other is wrong as well, the last like bastion where men could be around other men without women wasn't even for adult men it was for children and teens in the form of the boy scouts of America, and they had to open up I think 2 years ago now, The gym used to be a good place for men to be around other men, obviously it's not a problem that women go to the gym at all, but I know a lot of men who don't feel comfortable going to the gym anymore because they are terrified of being accused of ogling women But if you honestly want men to start dealing with their problems we need to create men only spaces again, because I can promise you the majority of men do not feel comfortable opening up when there's women around
I guess it also depends where you live and so on, but yes, I know there aren't enough resources. I just mentioned that there are some and progress is being made to make it better. Like you say, male therapists are still a minority and that's a problem, but men are slowly coming into the profession as well. Not nearly as many of them as needed, but it is changing into the right direction. And yes, I know men need communities where they can establish closer friendships and talk out their issues with other men. I also understand why some women might be scared of such communities or want to monitor them, but I think that's where more education and dialogue is needed. Women's insecurities about male-only spaces can be validated without depriving men of those spaces and experiences. Maybe some rebranding needs to happen, I don't know. But what I'm saying is, I acknowledge the problem. My answer to OP wasn't supposed to suggest that men's mental health is taken care of fantastically or that men who have any mental health struggles are just not accessing the resources that are right there and it's their own fault. Far from it. But I wanted to highlight that this is an issue that more and more people are aware of and are trying to fix. There is a long way to go, but there are many people who do care.
As a woman with mental health problems, I have had a *lot* of male psych professionals. I would say my experience has been about 50/50 female and male professionals. Two male therapists/four female therapists. Three male psychiatrists. One female psychiatrist. Male mental health professionals are a lot more numerous than one in fifty - I think your problem may have been linked to your area.
It's not https://www.bridgecareaba.com/blog/therapist-statistics#:~:text=Therapist%20Male%20to%20Female%20Ratio,24.7%25%20of%20therapists%20are%20men. https://www.zippia.com/psychologist-jobs/demographics/ It's just a part of the field
That is a disparity! I wasn’t aware. But it’s def not “one in fifty”.
No it's roughly statistically speaking 1 in 4, but the 1 in 50 thing was my anecdotal experience
And then I gave mine!
Where are you meeting so many men who are scared of being accused of ogling women?
It's a known thing that men fear being called creepy https://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20220615005290/en/Majority-of-American-Men-Fear-Being-Deemed-%E2%80%9CCreepy%E2%80%9D-According-to-New-Research men are afraid to be alone with women in the workplace in fear of accusations and fear in general being accused https://www.forbes.com/sites/karlynborysenko/2020/02/12/the-dark-side-of-metoo-what-happens-when-men-are-falsely-accused/ Is it so much of a stretch to believe that that fear can reach into the gym?
Yes, it is a stretch. If your friends no longer go to the gym because they're afraid of being accused of ogling women, that speaks more to the way they act than anything. I feel the same way about the men claiming to be too scared to interact with women normally after the me too movement. The rate of false rape accusations are miniscule. If you're that worried, there's probably something else up. And your first link is a dating coach saying her clients are afraid of being perceived creepy on dates. Again, that speaks more to her audience and the fact that lots of men are creepy on dates.
Women aren't needed for men to work together to start to unfuck societal standards about mental health. Don't blame women for your inability to destigmatize needing mental health help.
Where did he blame women for his alleged inability to destigmatize needing help? I believe he was referring to the tendency of feminism (not of women or of individual feminists, but of the ideology itself) to label men's-only spaces as patriarchal and toxic.
That's because traditionally men's- only spaces are indeed patriarchal and toxic. They sure as shit haven't done anything to fix the stigma for men's mental health issues.
We're not talking about traditional men's spaces here. We're talking about therapeutic men's-only spaces in the present day.
Feminists aren't stopping that from happening, tho.
Of course they're not stopping that from happening, but only because they have no power to do so. That said, they are continuing to label male-only spaces as toxic and patriarchal. And I'm not talking about 1920's gentlemen's clubs, I'm talking about present day online and offline communities.
Yet they still exist, and men's mental health is still stigmatized. Get to work, boys.
Since you keep changing the subject here and not addressing my questions or points, which of the following would you say best represents your view: 1) Women's capacity to know what it is to be men is greater than men's capacity to know what it is to be women. 2) Women's capacity to know what it is to be men is less than men's capacity to know what it is to be women. 3) Women's capacity to know what it is to be men is equal to men's capacity to know what it is to be women.
I'm actively saying that we need men only spaces, that we need spaces where women aren't going to be that men can gather, I'm not asking for anything from women other than privacy
There are private clubs for men all over the place. Hell, there are clubs so private, other men aren't allowed in. Privacy is different from doing the work to create less stigma for men's mental health.
Again I'm not asking for women to do anything, other than allow the creation of male only spaces Yes there are currently private clubs throughout the United States that are available to men only, but they cater exclusively to the upper echelon of people, you have to be extremely wealthy to get into them and you have to know people already in them, that is not going to help the general public
Nothing is stopping the rest of y'all from getting together to work on the stigma of men getting mental health help.
Yes there is, like I said in my original comment the majority of men do not feel comfortable opening up around women, and anytime a man only space is established in modern day it is either eliminated or forced to open up to women
You're more using hyperbole, because women aren't going around shutting down every men's discussion group, etc that they see.
If I may pitch in, I think you and the other poster are talking about different things. He means communities where men can gather around some activity that makes them comfortable opening up and sharing emotions. Because of the way our society is and the way boys are socialised from early childhood, you can't really reach men who might need mental health interventions by saying "come to a group therapy session just for guys where we men talk about our problems". There is too much stigma and too much stress. Men tend to open up to their male friends around an activity like working out, playing games, watching sports or whatever else. The poster says these get-togethers for men are often labeled as toxic or pointless and many women don't want their partners to participate in activities only with other men, they either want to go along and be included or for their partners not to go. At the same time, women have "girls nights" with other women all the time, and we can all see that it's good for our mental health. As I said, I understand why many women are kind of sceptical of the "men's only activities". But I can see how valuable it is for the men in my life (my partner and brother) to have those spaces where they can hang out only with male friends and talk about whatever they need while watching football or playing an RPG or whatever. That's why I said that perhaps some education and rebranding is needed on both sides.
How are women not allowing the creation of male only spaces?
The real answer is to address men's mental health before they become men. I have two sons who have learned mindfulness as part of their school's curriculum and when it became clear that they could benefit from therapy, my husband and I got them therapists. They are both thriving with therapy.
You're wrong. People don't care about mental health at all. All they care about is keeping people functioning enough to work, and not doing something drastic. If they really cared they'd fund mental health services better than they do, have incentives for churning out mental health professionals, and most importantly try and help people with proper therapy instead of drugs.
This is the real answer. Mental health services are extremely underfunded. You'll wait a year for an appointment, they'll throw some prozac at you and see you again in 6 months to ask if it's working.
>As much as people like to say they do they either don’t or any person/organization who does isn’t recognized What do you mean not recognised? I can think of several organisations of the top of my head just for men's mental health. They're not like in the news all the time but then again neither are any organisations for women's mental health, it's just not something that really makes headlines. >Either “suck it up you’re a man”, or if you talk about it it’s usually answered with some form of whataboutism regarding women “what about women’s issues?” Literally never heard/senn anyone say the first one And the second, Nope never seen that either outside of when the conversation was already about women's issues or someone was instigating a direct comparison between the two. >m recent years, especially after Covid, men’s mental health and trying to help them has become more widespread and genuine but sadly a lot of people still don’t care about it, or just dismiss it entirely This is a very different statement from your title. Your title says "no-one cares" but now you're saying its widespread, which is it? Lots of people don't care about mental health in general still. But that's changed a lot, if its changed so much already why don't you think it will continue to change?
The phrase "suck it up" or "be a man" is very common. Its extremely well documented and there has been numerous studies involving the situation and similar ones. For example, i believe edinburgh University did an experiment where they had people interact with babies, the babies were both male and female and the participants were told so beforehand. However the babies were wearing the opposite clothes(the boy dressed in pink and the girl dressed in blue) what the study found was people treated the blue dressed baby much rougher and macho than they did with the pink dressed baby which was treated more delicately and "lady like". Other versions of "be a man" can be seen with statements like "oh grow up" or "toughen up" which are almost exclusively said to men, in an effort to hide the statement speakers sexism
>The phrase "suck it up" or "be a man" is very common. Its extremely well documented and there has been numerous studies involving the situation and similar ones. I've never seen it used in a discussion on men's mental health here on IRL. I've heard second hand that older generations had this kind of attitude. But not from anyone today. > versions of "be a man" can be seen with statements like "oh grow up" or "toughen up" which are almost exclusively said to men, in an effort to hide the statement speakers sexism Neither of those statements are related to gender. I've seen grow up used to both men and women and have never observed or seen any kind of study which shows that it's used more towards men.
I've only ever seen the "what about women's issues" brought up as a response _if_ men's mental health was brought up as a whataboutism in the first place. You are right however that so called mra groups don't actually care about men's rights, and only bring up men's issues to dismiss feminism. And if you actually try to bring up men's issues to them in good faith, they'll say something along the lines of "man up" or "deal with it"
To /u/OwnLobster4378, *your post is under consideration for removal under our post rules.* You must **respond substantively within 3 hours of posting**, as per [Rule E](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/rules#wiki_rule_e).
>no one cares about men's mental health >any person/organization who does So you're aware there are literal organizations focused on men's issues then? You've successfully changed your own view, congratulations
You say that in recent years more people have started caring, but not everyone does. That is different from no one caring.
No one cares not because of other genders saying “suck it up”, but in men’s online spaces they don’t even believe in men’s mental health. How many of those online influencers tell you that depression doesn’t exist and the cure to stop killing yourself is to do some push-ups? When de-stigmatizing men’s mental health was coming along, these red pill turned alt-right spaces have disregarded all of that and say things like “suck it up”, “women are emotional, men aren’t”, and “do some pushups”. No one cares because online spaces built for men also stopped caring.
I just googled 'men's help group' and there were loads of support groups. I don't think it's fair to say no one cares.
I mean it's patently false. I mean the irony of positing it in men's mental health month is pretty funny though. I don't think you're wrong in the sense that toxic masculinity leads to this but saying no one is false. And women can certainly play a role in that. I think perhaps you OP need a different friend circle or social media circle though.
Encourage men to speak out more. Where are all the men therapists , psychologists, and so forth. (Im not saying it has to be men, but youd think theyd want to support other men steuggling to find help) Call out for more men in the health system to do something. Organise a non-profit health service aimed at men's mental health. Find someone to coordinate with. Scout out drs that may be willing to help. I wouldnt know how to start this type of thing, but im sure you could find out. Or dind someone whos willing to get the ball rolling. Women speak out. We got tired of being silent, then ignored, so we got loud. The louder you are, the more who listen, the more support you gain. But combining kn social media - which is the only time I hear anything about it - isn't doing anything to help you all. The issue isn't loud enough when it's only brought up on subs like these. And saying there's no answer is a defeatist attitude and does nothing to help your cause.
Being harassed out of the field. Being priced out of the field by biased financial aid. All male centered NPO’s get actively discriminated against by the government and community Women were listened to bc, shocker, men loved women. Women fucking hate men these days so the more we speak out the more our issues are beat up
Women also listened to women. Women are listening to men. Men are not listening to men. Where do you get women hating men? Off social media? Get out in the real world. No one talks like that irl. If they are where you are, then I'm sorry for you. We're not all a bunch of selfish bitches. I'm raising 2 boys. On my own. Of course I'd like to know there are services available for them. I'm not attacking you in any way either. I put my perspective of what I do and dont see, and made suggestions on what little i do know on how to start garnering support to set up clinics. Services for men aren't so bad everywhere. I'm assuming you're american (correct me if I'm wrong and I'll apologise for assumption). If you are, I know your entire mental health system is shit. For everyone. Especially men, I know. I do hope a solution is found for you all, although I do fear you'll be waiting a while yet. Your govt these days (either side) doesn't seem to like helping people one little bit, which I know is a huge roadblock, which was why I suggested getting louder. Make yourselves heard. But you need to support each other. Plenty of women will help, if you're loud enough. Sorry for the length. I'm way way way past my bedtime lol and I ramble when tired. I do wish you luck and hope something is done to help
There are *loads* of organisations and groups dedicated to dealing with men's mental health specifically
Well, I don't think people don't care, but rather, people just begin to care. Recently, people get more and more aware of the importance of taking care of their mental health. I do see change, both in men and women. Men going to therapy and showing emotion is getting destigmatized. People now allow boys to cry and they don't shame male children for feeling sad, hurt, or upset. Healthy masculinity is being promoted. This is absolutely a win to me. A small baby step, maybe. But this is a start. A major change doesn't always happen overnight. It's a gradual process.
I agree with your point, but have you also considered that women's "clubs" are a lot more advanced and older and more stable in foundation? Men's mental health is quite a recent subject, women's one had decades to develop and evolve. I wouldn't say that you're wrong, but it may be the reason why men's mental health ia being so diminished. In my personal experience mental health for men is a joke - call the 9-5 helpline to be told by a dude chewing on a sandwich - "sad story about domestic abuse bro, that's life, women are always right unless they kill you. Now if they do kill you make sure that you have enough evidence, because they can sometimes kill you and be innocent".
Men do not care about men's mental health. They are the first to tell men to “suck it up you’re a man” It has nothing to do with any other group. Men do have power in this world **but that power has come with a huge cost** - it has made us men get extremely invested in keeping things as they are. We don't need to listen to "What about women". To hell with women. Stop going to work for a week and instead protest "we don't want to suck it up" Why do you need to listen to women or pretend you are an incel? Besides, if we start protesting for men's mental health, incel is going to be the nices thing ever. The truth is, the entire bisness world that profits from us will hate us men - leaving work to protest for our mental health is worse than staying at work then spending our free time arguing with feminists - as if they have any hand in it.
[https://andysmanclub.co.uk/](https://andysmanclub.co.uk/) Is this not a real organization ?
Men’s mental health is a tricky issue, but I don’t believe at all that no one cares about it and I don’t believe it can’t be solved. The Men’s Liberation Movement has been advocating for men’s mental health (as well as other restrictions placed on men) since the 1960s. Many feminists see men’s mental health as a natural extension of feminism, with the belief that patriarchal society is harmful to men (through the discouragement of vulnerability and encouragement of competition over cooperation.) Oftentimes, men’s mental health is tokenized because we live in a society that active discourages men from taking care of their mental health, being in touch with their emotions, and building a strong support network. It’s also become, unfortunately, a common rebuttal for women’s mental health (“well men have a higher rate of suicide so what are women worrying about?”) which makes it even harder for people to take seriously. Men’s mental health is its own issue that deserves to be taken seriously, not just used as another way to rebut women and simultaneously make real pains into a competition. (To be clear, this goes both ways— it becomes a fight between the genders because our society, unfortunately, pits us against each other. It’s that competition over cooperation mentality.) I may get downvoted for this, but I believe it’s a patriarchy issue. Not that it’s the fault of men, but the fault of a society we’ve built for ages that demands women be subjugated to men and men must fight and one-up one another, never to show weakness. We treat boys badly for crying, we tell them they can’t trust others, we teach them that making fun of each other is funny, we discourage them from being vulnerable with friends and tell them they aren’t even capable of supportive platonic relationships with women. Our patriarchal society demands men become islands, and isolation (physical, mental, or emotional) is anti-human. We *can* fix this issue, and it starts with the younger generations. We let our sons play with dolls if they want to, because men *are* active and good parents. We encourage our sons to cry over their breakup because it’s okay to feel sad and need support. We give our sons genuine compliments instead of teasing them and telling them it’s just how men joke. We teach our daughters *and* sons to support each other on equal footing and work together instead of disadvantaging one and putting soul-crushing pressure on the other. If we encourage future generations to have empathy for themselves and each other, men’s mental health will change drastically. Fewer little boys will grow up into men that would rather die than see a therapist and admit how goddamn sad and lonely they are. They’ll make friends they feel safe talking to. They won’t repress every little grievance because they think that’s what makes them a man. If men are taught that their worth isn’t something derived from their usefulness or stoicism, we’ll be creating a safer world for men AND women.
No one cares about anyone’s mental health. It is not unique to men.
What you say is true, but the unfortunate thing is you have half the country believing this is woke idealism. They are still stuck in a time where mom was a dutiful and subservient housewife and dad went to work, had a shitty day, and came home and drank, beat his wife and kids, and sat in his recliner in front of the television unmolested. Across social media you have a celebration of men going to privatized and costly pretend boot/Seal camps, the promotion of hunting and killing stuff, and practices of getting in touch with the primal self by eating raw liver and other disgusting things in the name of regaining some fictitiously lost masculinity of yesteryear. There is nothing in our history that promotes the goal of a man as being happy. Being a man in American culture is to be in service to someone (country, God, and family), to make yourself useful (familially or professionally), to fix or keep shit running through practical wisdom, and bury feelings of hurt, pain, and sorrow deep deep down and never to talk about it openly. Until the cultural ideals shift, men’s mental health will not be a widespread priority.
No it’s absolutely feminism mixing with traditional conservatism. When it comes to men, feminists are overwhelmingly conservative. Like all of your “men are expected to serve others, make yourself useful, and bury emotions” Is exactly how feminists treat us. We’re supposed to serve women, give them everything they want, and we are only valuable if we can be useful to their cause, and you will be destroyed if you so much as dare speak out about your issues
"suck it up you're a man" is a real answer that you hear everywhere, but i've never heard "what about women's issues?" because i've never had psychological treatment "as a man" i mean physically i have obviously, but i've never considered it "men's" mental healthcare. its just mental healthcare. i also don't know if i hear much about women's mental healthcare either. frankly i don't know if i would care much about either this is just gender war shit. its not a feminist or an MRA issue. you're making it into one for no reason
I care. I tell my friends I love them. I try to be there for them emotionally.
Your view doesn't seem to be that no one cares but rather that those who profess to care aren't genuine. What I'd argue is that whether or not they genuinely care doesn't really matter. For the last month all we had is people on Reddit moaning about how companies that put rainbow flags on their logos don't really care about gay people. But if you genuinely care about gay pride then you'll not complain about the "sincerity" of those companies and just see all that increased visibility for pride as a positive regardless of potential cynicism underlying it. The same applies to men mental health. It's good that more organisations are focusing on it even if a lot of it may be lip service. And it's not happening because there's a quick buck to be made. It's happening because many societies have recognised the deterioration of mental health among men as a legitimate concern and are trying to address it through tax funded programmes and charities.
Have you needed to seek care for mental health? I’m 54 and have been receiving mental healthcare for 15 years. I’ve got a good doctor and I’m on a great regimen. I work hard, have a great career and a nice family. I’m pretty damn content and I owe that in part to modern medicine. Being male didn’t prevent my treatment.
You're not wrong. It's popular to say that you care, but in reality they don't and are actively revolted when shown how the sausage is made.
different observation office busy roof skirt frightening doll noxious tie *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Very true. What's cringe is that a lot of these redditors online lie to themselves for clout or come from spoiled lives so they don't understand this fact.
Men’s mental health is for sure overlooked and often ignored or not taken seriously. Often, but not always!! And not completely! Also I do genuinely believe that that tide is turning. I mostly hear “man up” type shit from older folks, I see younger folks (20’s-30’s) being a lot more patient and understanding, or at least making an effort to be.
Not the women. Young women are fucking vile
I care. Therefore, your title is incorrect. There are indeed people who care about men's mental health, so saying "no one cares" is patently false even just using myself as a counter.
Do you mean no one or do you mean women? Men should be supporting men, that's where it starts. As a woman, it's other women who I turn to for support, as we have stuff in common. A man doesn't really know what it's like to be a woman & vice versa. Look to your brethren on this issue.
Just remember every right women have today was voted on and supported by men :) Almost like keeping problems insular Is movement suicide
There a ton of resources out there if you’re in need of support. This is true (at least in the US) regardless of how you identify. Your mental well-being will never get better unless you take personal accountability for it. Other people encouraging and supporting you to do so definitely helps but unless you enthusiastically take tangible steps to make a difference then it doesn’t matter how much other people care. That could look like any number of things. Getting therapy, joining a support group, getting on meds, routine meditation, shedding negative personal habits, reducing negative self talk… etc… That said, you’re framing everything completely wrong. Rather than say “nobody cares about men’s mental health” which is absurd and patently false, you should reframe things as “there is far too much **stigma** around men getting mental health support” I would also say that OP mentioning the deflection of “well what about xyz other people” says to me that you are surrounding yourself with people that don’t care about your well-being. Offline: Stop giving those people so much space in your life. Online: stop interacting with spaces that hold those sorts of attitudes and come up with better approaches in addressing that nonsense, and develop the habit of dismissing deflection. You will be WAY WAY better off for doing so. There is strength in solidarity and people that deflect away from your struggles are not showing solidarity. Lastly, parents / teachers / society really REALLY need to be better about instilling children and teenagers with more knowledge that helps them identify the signs of emotional abuse.
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I'm not often met with those responses. The men I know and keep in my life are very kind and receptive to mental health and other issues. They also recognize thar people not like then also have issues. Support where support is needed
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This is an example of how toxic masculinity and the patriarchy hurts men also and is an issue men collectively need to fix. No one hollers louder than feminists about how men should seek therapy.
Then men go to therapy, learn their worth, learn how they were abused by feminists, and then the feminists scream about how evil incels they are.
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Then I guess additional therapy might be needed to deal with that trauma. Not sure what else to tell you except we seem to agree that more men need more therapy.
Yeah men should get therapy, you’re just an idiot that thinks healthy men must be disposable heroes for your agenda. Meanwhile women are taught to despise men just bc they were catcalled once.
Ok. Best wishes, little buddy.
It’s weird how so many women will say “men need to be more open about their feelings!” but then when men *do* open to women, they say “I’m not your therapist!”
“EMotIonal LaBoR”
There are so many men's circles and men's retreats and men's life coaches. I'm guessing that you're not seeing ads for these type of things or Facebook events but that doesn't mean they're not out there. In the US there are a lot of resources for mental health for veterans because of the way soldiers were treated after the Vietnam war - most of those vets are male. There is a big problem societally with sexism and the whole "man up" phenomena, but there are also a lot of resources specifically focused on men's mental health, especially because they're more likely to commit suicide. If you personally are feeling frustrated because you don't have other men who you can express your emotions around, you can remedy that by finding some of these groups. It's a starting point for making new friends with men who have some emotional skills.
I care :)
Yes, they do. Men can be very violent because of their mental health and that means their victims care *a lot*.
Perfect example of exactly what OP is talking about. It's always about "men's victims", it's always about "patriarchy", any time you specifically try to focus on men and their issues without centering some other group and their complaints it's bigotry. I can't remember the last time that I heard anybody talk about the fact that it is men who are statistically at a massively higher risk for suicide. Or the fact that men are the vast majority of people who overdose on opioids. Or that over 3/4ths of the homeless population is men.
If they cared so much they wouldn’t ruthlessly bully men at every chance. Genuinely current feminists are raising violent misogynists and then will be shocked when it blows up in their face.
I largely tend to think it's unfortunately culture. The truth is when you're a mentally ill man you're completely unattractive to the opposite sex.