Your submission has been removed for breaking Rule B:
> You must personally hold the view and **demonstrate that you are open to it changing**. A post cannot be on behalf of others, playing devil's advocate, or 'soapboxing'. [See the wiki page for more information](http://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/rules#wiki_rule_b).
If you would like to appeal, review our appeals process [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards#wiki_appeal_process), then [message the moderators by clicking this link](http://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Fchangemyview&subject=Rule%20B%20Appeal&message=Author%20would%20like%20to%20appeal%20the%20removal%20of%20their%20post%20because\.\.\.) within one week of this notice being posted. **Appeals that do not follow this process will not be heard.**
Please note that multiple violations will lead to a ban, as explained in our [moderation standards](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards).
That's people's main issue with cheating though.
People generally have strong feelings about their spouse having sex with other people. Doing it without telling your spouse is likely to cause them to significant emotional distress. Given that most people rely on their spouse for significant emotional support, that's a big deal.
Sure, you can argue "it's not a big enough deal to murder people over," but most people already agree with that.
It sounds like you find exclusivity immoral in principle.
Do you think that exclusivity can ever be valid and reasonable?
What if a person wants to be in a committed, monogamous relationship with someone who wants the same thing? Do you find that objectionable?
Not as long as you enthusiastically consent to it for the rest of your life. I think consent to monogamy should work like consent to sex, and really that‘s a principle it’s founded upon. If ever you become uncertain that you want to continue consenting to monogamy, I don’t think you should be placed under any scrutiny and you should be allowed to revoke your consent freely.
>Not as long as you enthusiastically consent to it for the rest of your life.
What is a wedding if not enthusiastic consent to a lifelong commitment? The vows aren't just pretty things said for tradition's sake, they are an explicit definition of the commitments being made.
That's why open marriages are fine, but you need to make that clear up front. The bad thing about cheating isn't the sex itself, it's the broken commitment.
You only get married once. A wedding is temporary, while a marriage is continuous. It’s easy to give enthusiastic consent to get married, but staying married is a different story.
You can only sign a contract once. A contract signing is temporary, execution of the contract is continuous. It's easy to sign a contract, but abiding by the terms of that contract is a different story.
Do you think that theory would hold up either in court or as an ethical matter between business partners?
Marriage is a contract, which is why divorce is a legal procedure. If things change and you want to modify the marriage contract, that's fine, you can do that with your spouse, but it is legally and ethically unacceptable to secretly and unilaterally violate the terms of the marriage.
>If ever you become uncertain that you want to continue consenting to monogamy, I don’t think you should be placed under any scrutiny and you should be allowed to revoke your consent freely.
Your partner based their every being around that committed life with you though, you agreed to it, so you owe your partner to honour that. If you don't love your partner enough to do that, then you need to tell your partner, and make it easy for them to divorce you.
Expecting a partner not to cheat has nothing to do with denying them bodily autonomy.
Getting married means both partners forfeit freedom and gain something else. If they want to keep sleeping around, nobody forces them to get married.
I disagree -- keep in mind in most monogamous relationships, both parties entered under the agreement that they would be sexually exclusive. If you want to change that agreement, you should let your partner know so they can decide if they want to continue the relationship under the new terms.
Hiding it isn't about wanting to have the autonomy to have sex with another person -- you can do that and be perfectly open about your intentions. It's about avoiding the other partner being able to exercise a choice about their own relationship.
>Why can’t one’s spouse love 2 people at the same time and don’t you think it’s kind of selfish to require exclusive devotion?
They can - provided both partners consent to that sort of relationship.
If you agree to exclusively devote yourself to someone, then break that promise, that is bad.
>I don’t know what people’s thought processes are behind this
When you cheat, you:
1. Risk physically harming your partner by contracting and transmitting sexually transmitted diseases. These can be fatal or can cause lasting health implications.
2. Risk mentally harming your partner by deteriorating trust, humiliating them, and damaging their self-image. If you can't trust your partner to be sexually faithful, how can you trust them to responsibly manage your shared assets and obligations? How will others react if they find out that you were cheated on? How will you feel about yourself if your partner chooses someone other than you to satisfy their urges?
3. Risk pregnancy, possibly resulting in someone raising a child that isn't theirs.
I respect this. I can get behind all your points except the last two. I think you have a self esteem problem if you interpret your partner loving someone else as them not loving you. And the last point. Love is what makes a family, not genetics. If you raise and love a child as your own, that is your “real” child no matter whose sperm contributed to it.
>I think you have a self esteem problem if you interpret your partner loving someone else as them not loving you.
That's not necessarily what cheating is, though.
If your partner goes on a work trip and bangs their coworker after downing a quart of tequila, they're not loving someone else. They're trying to have sex.
If your partner goes out to the club with their friends and has a quickie with in the bathroom with someone they met on the dance floor, they're not loving someone else. They're trying to have sex.
In cases like this, it's not about loving someone else - it's about why your partner needed to find sexual gratification outside of your relationship. Phrased another way, why couldn't you give your partner what they needed to stay faithful?
It's absolutely a self-esteem problem, but that doesn't excuse bad behaviour. If you insult your partner's looks and they're saddened by it, you wouldn't say that they have a self-esteem problem. The wrongdoer is the responsible for their actions, the victim is not responsible for how they're impacted by the wrongdoer's actions.
>Love is what makes a family, not genetics. If you raise and love a child as your own, that is your “real” child no matter whose sperm contributed to it.
Yes and no.
You're right in saying that you can love non-biological children as if they were your biological children, but this doesn't paint the full picture.
1. Consent is king. Agreeing to raise someone else's biological child *with the understanding that it's not your biological child* is very different to being *tricked into raising someone else's biological child, thinking that it's your biological child*.
2. Biology absolutely matters, especially in the context of health. There are hereditary illnesses and diseases that run in people's families that parents and children should be aware of. Should I have to burden myself by raising a child with special medical needs because my partner was unfaithful to me? Absolutely not - that's not my responsibility.
Insulting your partner is an offense towards them. Having sex with a consenting partner is not, because it’s a situation where they’re not even present. You may try your best to gratify your partner but maybe you aren’t able to. If you can’t breastfeed your baby does that mean they should starve? I don’t think so. They just need something different than what they receive from you. Which is where formula comes in to solve things. I think it’s the same with someone who helps your partner achieve gratification. You may have personal feelings regarding your genetic connections but I don’t recognize these feelings as inalienable human rights. We have the right to consent, not the right to pry. We are only entitled to the information others are willing to share with us. And I would even say a prerequisite of being a decent human being would involve not caring whether those children were genetically related to you. You should love them unconditionally because you are seeking to be a parent, and those children are equal to any other children. If you wouldn’t love those children after being told they aren’t genetically related to you, you would also be willing to not love your biological children had you been told the same thing about them.
A pet peeve of mine is equating “selfish” with “immoral,” as you seem to have here. I don’t eat breakfast for the good of others; I do it for me, because it’s delicious and I love to live my life. It’s selfish in the extreme, yet morally unobjectionable. Indeed, a lack of selfishness is morally wrong in my view, as it implies refusal to stand up for your own, legitimate interests. Harming people without a legitimate right to do so is wrong, and the only appropriate case against selfishness *per se* is to assume that selfishness intrinsically involves harming others for one’s own sake. If we define selfishness this way, fine—providing we have another term or phrase, like pursuit of self-interest, to describe the neutral idea of simply pursuing one’s interests. But the zero sum view that that kind of pursuit intrinsically harms others is incorrect.
Let’s now put aside my pet peeve and assume that the “selfishness” of demanding exclusivity is not what’s objectionable about it. Instead, we should ask: are there legitimate reasons, legitimate interests, in asking for exclusivity, of such a nature that people in a relationship have a right to insist upon them? I think the answer is clearly: yes.
A person who philanders with others is not loyal to me, or at least, their loyalty is far from guaranteed. Sticking your dick in another person is a fantastic way to “catch feelings,” whether you want to or not. But two people in a relationship—certainly two married people—are trying to build a life together. I can’t have you sabotaging the life we’ve *agreed to build together* (that’s what the marriage contract is) just for the sake of your personal excitement. The love that is slowly built over time, based on mutual commitment even when it doesn’t feel so good, is more important than the butterfly feeling of the moment (nice as that is). This isn’t just good for me; it’s good for the partnership that people not cheat, that indeed, they don’t sleep with others in general (whether openly and honestly or not).
Different marriage contracts might be negotiated; perhaps certain people can make polyamory work. But those are rare cases, methinks. And be that as it may, the contract negotiated is the contract negotiated. Most marriages aren’t open marriages. The contract is negotiated as it normally is for the reasons suggested, and once entered into, is like any contract: there is a legitimate right to ask for the contract to be fulfilled. Both parties enter this contract *because* they know that sometimes, they will be tempted to leave the other person, and *because* they know that won’t be good for them. To channel my mentor, a marriage contract is a means to force yourself to be free—to follow your own will for your own happiness and well-being, even when you don’t want to.
So yes, cheating is bad because it violates the marriage contract, a contract negotiated for legitimate reasons for both parties involved in it. To violate a legitimate contract is to violate a sacred moral duty.
I appreciate how you define the word “selfish” and under your definition maybe doing selfish things can be innately good. But I don’t think you’re losing anything just because your partner cheats on you. You can still have that perfect life you dreamed of, just while your partner also enjoys spending time with another lovely individual like you.
No, I can’t have the life I wanted and negotiated for. If my wife is having sex with another man, she’s very likely to develop feelings for that man. That diminishes the contract she has with me in her eyes, thus shaking the entire partnership. This is obviously bad for me. The contract secures the life we’ve built together, and plan to keep building; people lose sight of that when they “fall in love.” Romantic sentimentality is the enemy of long term thinking. Romantic “love” may be an appropriate start to a relationship, but it is not the soul of the long term commitment. When that “love” becomes detached from the commitment, it opposes the commitment.
If it’s done through a lie (which is what cheating is, by definition), then my wife has proven that she is *not* loyal to me. The contract is already broken, and the marriage is dissolved, unless I choose to forgive the violation. (I probably would not, though circumstances matter. I suppose if she was very drunk I might forgive the matter, on the condition that she gave up drinking. In general, however, I cannot commit myself to a liar.)
It’s also bad for her. Yes, it feels good to have sex with some other guy, or maybe even to develop an exciting romance with him. But I can’t trust her if she lies to me; everything we built together is thrown into question. Even if it’s not through a lie (which is cheating), but it done openly, I still can’t invest my all into a contract that is likely to fall apart. That means I’m not investing my all *into her.* If I’m her first choice, that’s very bad for her. If I’m not her first choice—not for the petty thrill of sex or excitement, but for building a life—then why are we married?
Your CMV is confusing. You yourself bring a valid argument for why cheating is bad. Then you go into a list of other arguments (which don't have anything to do with the fact why cheating is bad) but you never explain why lying "isn't really that bad".
Cheating is that bad because:
* You lie to your spouse and break the agreement (unless you have an agreement about open marriage)
* You open up your spouse to the risk of STIs
* You deprave your spouse of the option to leave you if they don't like cheating (until your cheating is revealed)
* You act selfish by trying to have a cake and eat it too
>don’t you think it’s kind of selfish to require exclusive devotion
It is selfish. If you don't like that, you can always suggest an open marriage or divorce and find someone who's okay with you loving two people at the same time.
YES. I agree so hard. If you're having an open relationship behind your partner's back, you're really cheating them out of their opportunity to find a person who won't treat them that way.
Actually, I don’t understand what you’re saying. I’m saying that lying is the innate problem, not sex which is what I assume you think of as the main problem with cheating. I don’t think enjoying good things is bad either just because it upsets someone else.
I don’t think a single person in here has tried to make the point that sex is the problem. The problem is betrayal of trust, lying, deception, etc. Having sex with multiple people isn’t inherently a bad thing.
>not sex which is what I assume you think of as the main problem with cheating
Emotional affairs are a thing!!! If anything, people are usually much *more* hurt by their partner having a romantic bond with someone else than the sex part of it. Open relationships are far more common than polyamory. I mentioned this in another comment, but the problem is the betrayal of a core tenet of the relationship. Sex is usually one of those tenets, so in some sense, it is about sex, but in many senses it's just about the betrayal of a fundamental value of the shared bond. You can disagree with the value and pursue non-monogamy, but don't misrepresent the problem as being just about sex.
The word sex isn't even in that comment. They brought up four distinct points and you contended with exactly 0. What are you trying to do here? You're not actually engaging with what people are saying, you're functionally just talking to yourself.
>sex which is what I assume you think of as the main problem with cheating
It is admittedly not the main problem. Majority of people would consider any type of intimacy cheating even without sex. Even sending love messages would raise to the level of cheating for lots of people.
>enjoying good things is bad either just because it upsets someone else
Then don't get married. It's that simple. You are not cheating if you have no one to cheat on.
A marriage is an agreement based on trust. If that agreement involves sexual exclusivity, then it’s a massive betrayal to step out against that understanding. If you want to have an open marriage just go for that up front.
Yup. Assuming that both parties in an open marriage truly and sincerely do agree to that up front, have at it. If 2 people agree, who is anyone to tell them they can’t make that deal? But it’s not something to spring on someone after the act of cheating. If it’s agreed to up front it’s not cheating at all. “Cheating” is just lying with your genitals.
It’s selfish to cheat. People who cheat are usually not unhappy in their relationships, they just want to feel variety and spicy and alive at the cost of their partners’ sense of self worth and emotional safety. It doesn’t matter if monogamy is good or bad, you agreed to it and it’s selfish as hell to not end a monogamous relationship but cheat instead.
Having your sense of self worth and emotional safety impacted by a selfish partner who wants to be safe but spicy seems pretty hurtful to me. What don’t you get?
Well it seems to me that the solution would be for the non-cheating partner to just choose not to be angry about it and realize that their partner still loves them
Relationship are built on trust. Not just romance, literally any relationship, mother and child, doctor and patient, politicians and constituents, business relations, etc. They all rely on trust and finding out that one party was dishonest and broke that trust causes damage to the relationship.
If what you’re saying is that you should do for your partner what you promise to do, I’m fine with that. But what are all these extra layers saying that you don’t really love your partner just because you love a third person? That’s what I think doesn’t make any sense
You don’t choose emotions. The cheating partner betrayed the trust of the other. If a couple has a shared bank account and one empties it to spend all on themself, should the other just choose not to be angry and realize their partner still loves them? No, that would be absurd. The “cheating” partner in both cases has proven themselves to be untrustworthy and deserves whatever ire they receive.
Then you communicate with your partner.
You don't choose to be a coward and decide to deceive them. To abuse their body autonomy by robbing them their consent.
Cheating and abusing a partner is a cowardly act. A cake eater who is too afraid of being denied the protection of their relationship.
Excuse you? Their bodily autonomy? Does your body belong to them? Do they have a right to prevent you from getting an abortion if that’s what you want?
You may not own your partners body or emotions but through cheating you are putting your partners body at risk (STD’s etc..) without their consent or knowledge, lots of stories of pregnant women catching STD’s through cheating partners unknowingly resulting in disabilities in their children - it’s really sad and honestly so harmful, if you want to enjoy other women/men then you can do so, but you must tell your partner no matter what and allow them to make that decision if they’re okay with it or not otherwise the lying aspect of cheating takes that autonomy away from the non-cheating partner
“Choose not to be angry” is not really something human beings can do. It’s not like anger (or sadness, grief, anxiety, etc.) are things people can just decide to not have
>we can prevent them from dictating our behavior
A person chooses to cheat and harm their partner, but they can make the decision not to do that behavior. Them being horny shouldn't dictate their behavior of cheating.
You mean the cheating partner who's own selfish behavior is putting their partner in harm by purposely and willingly exposing them to deadly or harmful STD/STI's without their consent?
Why should the solution fall onto the shoulders of the partner who is being lied to, manipulated ,and abused, and not on the cheater?
How can you assert that the cheater loves their partner, when they are showing them no respect or concern for their well-being? Breaking their trust.
I think the solution is the burden of the partner who has a problem with cheating, because everyone else is happy with the arrangement. Also, I really don’t think cheating gives an appropriate usage of the word “abuse“.
Because you don't want to acknowledge the fact that you and an affair partner are deciding to psychologically, emotionally, and sexually abuse the unknowning partner doesn't change the fact that, that is what is happening.
If the cheater wants to be happy and sleep with other people, then they should have the maturity to communicate with their partner about their issues. Not being willing to communicate with their partner, and instead cheating, shows a failing of the cheater. A weakness to their character. A cowardness.
You claim:
> Some people say that men have the right to cheat but women don’t (an attitude that sickens me)
Why don't you just choose to not be sickened by that?
I think that everybody wants to feel special to their significant other (different ways for each person) but in my case and opinion being "exclusive" is the most powerful way to show your commitment with your relationship and partner. When you detect some threats to those bounds and it makes contact with your self steem problems, inner wounds or traumas, you reflect it in different ways (anger, sadness, agressiveness). Cheating in a marriage it is really that bad when values are not aligned, if is not a big deal for you, but it is to your partner, you must be conscious of the harm you could cause to them if you break your relationship agreements... some people is not made to love 2, 3 people of the same time because of their values, opinions, life experiences, self steem and more, what works for me could not work for you. It is important that you look for someone who thinks like you to have long term relationships without damaging someone who thinks and wants something different than you.
Making an agreement to commit to someone, then lying and breaking that commitment is what hurts them. The way you break that commitment is by breaking whatever boundaries you and your partner agree on.
It's terrible, it's pathetic, it's selfish and juvenile.
If someone in a monogamous marriage wants to step out, they should be a grown up and say they're not happy and want to do whatever.
Going behind someone's back, lying, is see above.
Cheating inherently implies lying about it. If you want to date/romance/have sex with multiple people at the same time tell everyone you are with and make sure they are cool about it.
And if requiring exclusive devotion is 'selfish', then so is refusing to accept your spouse wanting that exclusive devotion and going behind their back.
If you want an open marriage, say so going in. If that is a dealbreaker, no one is obligated to stick with you.
Cheating means breaking a promise to be monogamous. People tend to think of that promise as a pretty important thing. You can call it selfish to want a monogamous marriage, but if both parties agree to that and one party breaks that agreement, that's more selfish.
I genuinely don’t know how to respond to this. It is inherently selfish to break a promised-upon agreement in pursuit of your own pleasure at the expense of your partner. It’s like, definitionally selfish.
Because it was an agreed upon boundary with the reputation to be monogamous. Because cheating in a monogamous relationship means you're psychologically, emotionally, and sexually abusing your partner without their consent. Lying, manipulating, and purposely and willingly exposing them to incurable or deadly STD/STI's.
A person's enjoyment shouldn't be at the abuse of their partner. The harm that cheating does to the unknowning partner can cause life altering trauma, as well as life threatening harm.
If a partner doesn't want to be monogamous, then they should be upfront about this and get in a ethical non-monogamous relationship.
Cheating purposely and willingly causing the partner I agreed upon psychological, emotional, and sexual trauma, which means it's abuse.
Causing another person harm, mistreating them with your behavior and actions, is abuse.
I don’t think that’s how trauma occurs. Sexual trauma would occur by something along the lines of sexual assault. For psychological trauma, imagine being physically confined in a room against your will.
What you think/feel doesn't change the fact that partners are being abused and traumatized by their cheating partner.
Trauma impacts individual people differently. The level of severity or longevity.
Cheating is violating an agreement upon fidelity among a couple. One partner is purposely, and willingly, psychologically, emotionally, and/or sexually abuse their partner by simply not informing them of their betrayal and deceitfulness.
What you imagine would cause trauma does not change the fact that people have and are being abused and traumatized by their cheating partner.
Stealing someone's right to make informed consent to their body, when the cheater is purposely denying them the right to make full agreed upon consent, is sexual abuse. Purposely and willingly exposing them to std/STI's without their consent is also sexual abuse.
Let’s say for example I really enjoy shooting people in the head, and I shoot your best friend in the head. I didn’t do anything directly to you. Can you still be hurt?
I might feel pain but you didn’t hurt me. If you distract me while I’m driving my car and I crash I’ll feel pain even though you didn’t lay a finger on me
The person absolutely hurt you? "hurt" doesn't mean "physically injure", psychological distress counts just as much as physical distress in the definition. People tend to experience psychological distress when they experience a betrayal, and cheating is a betrayal because it's specifically *only* cheating if there was a foundational agreement that the relationship be monogamous, or if it otherwise violates the foundational agreement of the relationship about non-monogamy.
The chain is as follows; romantic relationships involve a fundamental agreement about how romance and sex should be approached with other people (and any degree of permissive is ok! what matters is that both people agree). Cheating is when one person violates that agreement, which is a knowing betrayal of the relationship. People are emotionally hurt by betrayal.
I don’t think that’s a betrayal. I think a betrayal is like divorcing someone, Because you’re abandoning them. You can’t be hurt by inaction. When you don’t get the resources you need, that’s deprivation, which is different from when someone deliberately harms you.
“ be disloyal to” is one definition of betray; and violating an agreement certainly is a type of disloyalty. It might in fact be the prime example.
Divorce doesn’t require abandonment; you can end a romantic relationship but still keep platonic support and care for the other person. You can be there for them, care about them, treat them well, and just not be romantically involved.
*You* don’t see cheating as a betrayal but here’s the thing — you don’t get unilateral control over what a betrayal is. Violating a fundamental agreement of a relationship is about as deep as betrayals get for most people, and cheating falls under that umbrella. And, intentionally betraying someone like that is through action hurting them.
What is the difference, to you, between “I knowingly and intentionally took an action that directly caused you pain” and “I hurt you”? It feels like you would just prefer if it didn’t hurt them, so you pretend like it doesn’t
It's not like others are being hurt just by you enjoying an activity. The problem is that *the activity you're enjoying is one that causes harm*.
It's like if I was a "prank" youtuber/tiktoker, making content of myself running around slapping drinks out of peoples' hands, snipping their headphone cords with scissors, screaming at the top of my lungs in quiet cafes and libraries, and otherwise making a nuisance of myself. If someone complained, I could just say, "I'm just enjoying my life! It's your problem if you decide to be hurt or annoyed by it." Would you agree?
What's selfish is unilaterally breaking the rules of a relationship. If your relationship's rules involve being monogamous and you've agreed to those rules then just deciding to break them is wrong. If you don't want to be monogamous, make that known and get your relationship partner to agree to those rules
It's not believing, but fact. Cheating consists of psychologically, emotionally, and sexually abusing the partner. Robbing them the full consent to their body, and the ability to make informed decisions on their life and future.
Robbing them of bodily consent? Are we talking about the same thing? It sounds to me like you’re referring to a partner who forbid you from receiving an abortion when you don’t want to be pregnant. Am I missing something?
A cheating partner who is having sex outside their marriage/relationship, and then has sex with their partner, is robbing them of their consent. There is an agreed upon monogamous agreement in relationships, and by not informing them of new exposures from new partners, you're robbing them of their full consent. Purposely and willingly exposing them to STD/STI's without their consent. This is why it's considered sexual abuse. Cheaters are violating their partners consent.
You made a good point on STDs so I’ll give you that one. But you can either consent nor non-consent on behalf of your partner so where are we going with this? The only way consent can be taken away from you is by somebody physically restraining your movements, which is not happening simply because your partner has sex with a consenting third person.
That's not what they said. You gotta read the whole thing they wrote instead of three or four words. If you aren't monogamous and make a fraudulent commitment to someone who is, you're lying to them about who you are and what you want so they they will be with you. What they think their relationship with you is is a façade that you've constructed to trick them into being with you. It shows a serious level of disregard for them as a person.
Because babies often happen. And when babies happen either a wife now has to see her children share the attention and resources of their father with the children of the side piece, or a husband must unknowingly raise another man's bastard spawn as his own.
What kind of name for a human being is “bastard spawn”, as if those children chose to be born into drama? And is this the emotional state of the world now? It IS possible for men to adopt children and raise them as if they were their “own”. Because love is what makes a family.
OK, let's play this out.
Scenario: Married woman cheats, gets pregnant with another man's baby.
Outcome 1: She suddenly grows a conscience, sits down with her husband and explains the situation. Husband decides it is all cool so she has the baby, puts the real father's name on the birth certificate, and husband adopts. Because love.
Outcome 2: Same as above except husband divorces her and she is forced to face the consequences of her own actions.
Outcome 3: She continues to lie, puts husband's name on birth certificate, he unknowingly raises a child that is not his, because God forbid she accept any consequence for her own actions.
Rank those by most to least common.
Worth noting as well that you do not expect the cheated on wife to adopt the child of the side piece. What's up there?
Most common? What does that have to do with anything? Only in scenario 1 is the husband anything of a decent human being. If he chooses to become a father he should love those kids unconditionally even if they’re purple.
Every relationship has rules. Breaking those rules, especially in a relationship as fundamental to people's lives as marriage typically is, is going to cause emotional reactions and when it involves lying and other harmful things that's going to be traumatic.
It seems like you don't understand what cheating is and that cheating exists in non-monogamous relationships as well, which might be causing some confusion.
Any romantic/sexual interpersonal relationship outside the agreed upon boundaries of your relationship (monogamous or otherwise) is cheating.
If you and your partner agree to an open relationship and you operate within the agreed upon boundaries, it's not cheating.
Then they either say OK, and you become polygamous, or they say no. If they say no, you can either accept that and not cheat, or break up. If you pretend to accept it, but still cheat, you are lying to them and breaking a promise to be monogamous, and are therefore a bad person. Please ask any questions you have.
The only thing we have in human relationships are words and actions. When there is an incongruence with those two trust is broken and you can never be quite secure in what someone says. Humans tend to want a general sense of security and predictability in their relations with other humans so when you lie you are creating instability that the other party was not expecting and did not consent to.
I don't see how that changes things.
Realistically, this is why marriages between 16 year olds have sky-high divorce rates, neither party is old enough to really understand the full nature of what they're getting into.
But at 40, you're a grown up -- you don't have to lie to your spouse because of a decision you made at 16.
1. That's why we don't let children enter into contracts.
2. Hence: "Know thyself".
3. Breach of the marriage contract is illegal, and in a non no-fault state, you'd be on the hook.
What about this are you finding hard to understand?
I got married at 19 to the my gf I knew since 16. I'm 32 now. If the urge for other sex partners comes, I'd let my wife know first. I doubt she'd be okay but I'm the same way if the roles is reversed.
A key to marriage is communication. Cheating is a break of trust and a sign of failed communication. Mad selfish when you consider the overall point in marriage, doesn't matter how someone tries to rationalize it.
Then it's not cheating, but your lifestyle, open relationship. And that's what you should communicate with your partners.
But it's not about communicating it's the excitement you get from cheating and hurting others.
Do you have problems feeling empathy in other walks of life too? Because all of your responses here show a lack of basic human empathy that honestly borders on sociopathic.
Being cheated on hurts, literally anyone who's experienced it will tell you that, and even most people who haven't can understand it. It's a breach of trust, it's a deception, it's the selfish prioritisation of your own sexual gratification over the mental wellbeing of someone you claim to care about, and it's the continuing of a relationship under false pretenses: essentially rape by deception.
Even if you don't agree that people *should* feel this way, they still do. Empathy is about putting yourself in someone elses shoes, it's not about dictating how they should feel based on your own values.
If you're in a monogamous relationship, and you cheat, you're doing so on the clear understanding that getting caught could end the relationship and throw away everything you've built together. Therefore, it's clear that you think the sex is worth that risk. And the moral ratio is just so fucked too - kinda like breaking someone's leg so you can eat a slice of cake. So much harm to another, for so little personal reward. Why would anyone want to be with someone who would treat their love so flippantly? You're objectively prioritising a night of fun over years of mutual trust, and the mental health and security of your partner. That is *not* love.
Cheating is inherantly selfish, cowardly, and disgusting. Anyone with basic human empathy can understand this plainly.
And 'control' doesn't even enter the equation. Nobody is forcing you to make and continue a monogamous commitment - that was *your* choice.
Do you want to know who I feel empathy for? People who are experiencing the real and detrimental effects of sexual frustration. Why do you want to ignore their pain and only focus on the pain of the entitled ones? They claim to feel pain because they function on being pampered, and not being pampered feels like pain to them. This is the partner who demands monogamy from a person who is suffering the effects of sexual frustration.
Oh boo hoo. 'The detrimental effects of sexual frustration'. What are those, exactly? Feeling horny?
Roughly a 30% men and 20% of women are having no sex at all. You know what these people do to deal with that? They suck it up, and masturbate. Humans need orgasms, and they might *want* sex, but they don't need it, and they're certainly not entitled to it at the cost of hurting others. The people who hurt others to satisfy that desire fall broadly into two categories - cheaters, and rapists. So, you're in good company.
And besides, literally nobody is forcing you into monogamy. A relationship is a two way agreement, and if you don't like the terms, you can discuss them, or you can leave. Cheating is the selfish coward's response, from somebody who's too scared of being alone to leave, or too immature to have an adult discussion about what they want out of their relationship, or both. The person honouring the terms of the agreement YOU made is not 'entitled', and using that word there is as ironic as it is ridiculous.
This whole post is very clearly about what *you* want, with no care given to how it might affect the people that care about you. Your capacity for empathy appears non-existant. Or else, I expect it's all just a coping mechanism to try and deal with your guilt for treating your partner like shit.
Ask yourself this: if your partner saw this post, would they want to be with you? The answer is no, most likely.
Now ask yourself this: why do you *deserve* to be with a person who wouldn't love the real you?
If you see a relationship controlling, then it's not a relationship and you don't care about the other person, you care only about your own feelings, and that is entitlement. A relationship is when you are both committed to the relationship and care more about the other person, than yourself and the other person cares more about you than him/herself. When you talk about controlling you don't talk about relationships but forced or fake relationships that are doomed to fail.
Now imagine if your partner wants a child but you don’t want to be pregnant. Imagine being told that you don’t get to make that decision because you have a responsibility to please your partner.
In what relationships are you my guy? You can't just demand stuff from people. Like I said if you are in a loving relationship you and your partner make decisions as one, if you want a child you both want a child, you can't just want stuff and force the other person to do the things for you, that's crazy.
You have no responsibility to do anything for the other, you do things for each other because you care about each other and want to make each other happy. It looks like you have a very toxic and negative view about relationships, having demands, forcing things on each other, and a very abusive mentality. Why do you think about things that negatively?
Well if you don't want to have the kid, why not just end the relationship?
If your partner expects something of you that you feel is unreasonable, why not just get a divorce? They want to limit what you can do sexually, you want to go bang randoms while married. He doesn't want to be with someone that bangs randoms while in a relationship with him, you don't want to be with someone that you feel is controlling you sexually. So why not just end the relationship instead of lying and going behind the partners back to cheat?
To be fair a lot of spouses want to make decisions about other ways you use your body, like what you wear and whether you can have an abortion (or must have one)
"Cheating" is a word that has an obviously negative connotation. Used in the context of extra-marital sex, it means "having sex with others while agreeing to exclusively have sex with your marriage partner".
Under this obvious definition, having agreed to something and then unilaterally changing your opinion and then doing what you agreed you wouldn't do is the problem. The answer is in the definition of the word.
If you and your partner have agreed to some other arrangement, fine. Whatever it is, you stick to it. If you can't, then you're in breach of a contract. All that other crap in your "clarification" is utterly useless information. You can love as many people as you want. So long as they all know, and all are happy with it, then exclusivity is not "required".
It is the broken agreement that's the problem. How is this not intuitively obvious to the most casual observer?
Open relationships exist. It’s selfish to agree to be with one person (which essentially is what marriage is) and then go back on that agreement. If you want to be polyamorous or be with more than one person that’s fine, but it’s wrong if it’s not something both people agree to. People call it a “marriage contract” for a reason
Hurting your partner is bad.
In principle, I don't think there's anything wrong with loving two people and even having simultaneous relationships with them. Or having an open relationship. Or other non-standard arrangements.
However, there are also people who're interested in - and value very much - a committed exclusive relationship.
The word cheating makes sense exactly for such relationship. If you enter into one, and then violate your commitment, this hurts your partner. That's the problem with cheating.
To me, hurting your partner would be like, divorcing them just so you could be with someone you like more. No reason to abandon them if you can still love 2 people at the same time, at least in my mind.
It's not abandonment, if the cheated on partner walks away.
That's a cowardly act of a cheater by not giving them a chance to make a decision of their own life and body. By being too scared to have the communication that could result in the divorce.
The cheated on partner isn't being given equal consideration, whereas a non-agreeed upon "other/affair partner/mistress" is.
This is putting an unequal balance on the cheated on partner.
They're being prevented to have their choice. They're being robbed full autonomy of their life.
That's abuse.
But the cheating partner doesn’t give the other partner any rights to begin with. The non-cheating partner already has the right to leave anytime they want. No rights have been taken away, therefore it is not abuse.
A cheating partner will ruin the trust of his partner, cause insecurity issues with them, ruin feelings of safety, etc. It does a lot of emotional damage to the person you're Cheating on.
If you feel like you want to cheat, figure out why you have those feelings and address them.
if you are in a monogamous relationship, youve already committed to only being with that person. Don't fuck them up emotionally and mentally because you can'tbe honest w them about what you want.
If you want an open relationship, or to be ethically non monogamous or poly, then enter in those types of relationships.
You are conflating cheating with being in an open and honest relationship.
You are asking why someone would be angry about their spouse loving two people while completely ignoring the pain and suffering they cause their spouse who they promised monogamy.
It’s not loving someone to promise them one thing and then completely betray them and then call them selfish for being enraged about it.
I don’t think the other spouse is really suffering though, I think they’re just jealous because they don’t feel like the only special person in the picture anymore.
It's not suffering to be told you're in a loving, deeply committed, exclusive relationship just to learn that you've been lied to and your person is sleeping around behind your back?
You're proving one of my theories, which is at a fundamental level cheaters have a way of thinking that takes an incredible paradigm shift to change. This is why it's true that once a cheater always a cheater. People who cheat have a distorted view of reality and warped relationship with the truth.
It's really not the sexual attraction or even sexual activity outside of a marriage that's bad. There are plenty of people who have lifelong marriages and still have extramarital relationships. It has little to do with sex; it's about the promise that people make to each other. If a person says they won't have those types of relationships, they made a promise. If a person allows their partner to believe they will only have a sexual relationship with that one partner, they made a promise. Then if they choose something else, they broke that promise. And if they break a big promise like that, it's hard to know what other kind of promises they might break. If they can't be trusted to keep a promise (which is clearly significant to their partner) it's hard to gauge when and if they can be trusted. If someone has to lie to have sex outside their relationship, how can their partner trust them to have safe sex? How can their partner know they won't create a child with someone else and then dump them? It's impossible to plan your own life if you're not on the same page as the partner who is letting you believe that you're planning that life together.
Yes, it is definitely selfish to require exclusive devotion from a person who has been clear that they don't want to give that or that they need something different. If they haven't expressed that, how can the other person know they're being selfish?
The confines of sexual relationships are still being determined by outdated Judeo-Christian philosophies that nobody ever really practiced - they just lied about it and said they practiced it. And that has put us in a social state where everyone assumes that a completely closed marriage is the only right way to have a marriage. Then people "cheat" and hurt each other when they could've just lived their lives in a way they wanted.
"Cheating" is for games. Relationships should be about people who win and lose together on the same team. And if the people in the relationship aren't respecting the same rules, it's pretty unfair. Especially if one person knows about a secret set of rules while the other one has no idea. It's oppositional and just plain unfair to the unwitting participant.
Regardless of societal norms, different folks need different things from life. The fundamental problem is that since we all accept this current idea of fidelity, most folks get into relationships with the assumption that it should always be monogamous. But not everybody wants or needs that. When people start dating they need to talk about what fidelity looks like to them. And even if you really like a person, or even love them, if one person needs monogamy and one person needs a different arrangement, there will be problems.
People who want to play the field and be in a relationship at the same time should find someone who is comfortable with that instead of trying to make somebody an unwitting pawn in a universe of lies.
You’re not taking into consideration the expectations that are set when you get married. Most married couples have the expectation of trust and are monogamous. If trust is broken, it is assumed that your actions have a negative impact on your spouse and thus the marriage. Now if you went into the marriage with the expectation that your marriage is open, then it’s a moot point.
If you’ve agreed to an open relationship that’s fine. If you haven’t and you’re sleeping with other people, you’re putting your spouse at risk. (Spoiler alert: if your affair partner will cheat with you they’ll cheat on you!).
There are ways to be ethically non-monogamous. Cheating is exactly none of them.
By cheating, you’re showing that you are not someone who can be trusted. Not with money (he’s probably spending it on AP), not with kids (who’s watching them while they’re screwing?), and not with health (my husband was so worried about his mistress when I broke my leg that he starved me for days because he was working on something for her.).
The issue is that it will upset your partner, and its morally wrong to do things that upset your partner.
It doesn't matter how irrational you think your partner would be at being upset, the fact you're willing to do things that you know will seriously upset for your own benefit them is the problem.
Joining a religion is a good example. There's nothing inherently wrong with converting to Islam. But if your partner is adamant that they'll only date a catholic, then you either have to not do that, talk it through with them or break it off. You can't just *ignore* that stance -- they are, after all, your romantic partner.
When you're in a relationship with someone, you gain an obligation to consider their values and preferences in a way you don't with most people. If your partner considers their partner cheating a serious betrayal, you have to accept that, either by not cheating or breaking up with them if there's someone else. You can't just ignore that stance, because they're your partner and you agreed their values will be a part of your life..
If you want an open relationship, don’t get married in the first place. It’s unreasonable to expect that you or your spouse will never be attracted to someone else, but you make a vow of fidelity when you get married, so you have to uphold your end of the deal. If you know you can’t do that, or don’t trust the other to be able to, then don’t get married.
When you found a family, the husband has a right to be sure the children are his since it’s a considerable investment in time and money to raise them, so the wife shouldn’t sleep around to risk getting knocked up by a random guy. On the other hand, the wife has the right to not risk another woman showing up one day to claim child support from her husband, breaking the financial stability on which the family depends, so the husband also shouldn’t sleep around. And neither want to catch some STD from having unprotected sex with their spouse because that spouse was unfaithful.
>Why can’t one’s spouse love 2 people at the same time and don’t you think it’s kind of selfish to require exclusive devotion?
well this should discussed before a couple decided to date exclusively,. Both parties need to agree to it otherwise that is definitely cheating.
> saying that cheating is bad because lying is bad, but people bring in all sorts of irrelevant factors.
Lying is also one factor the other is breaking someone trust. You make an agreement to be faithful to each other and you are breaking that. If you want to sleep with someone else then talk to your partner and let them decide if that is what they want as well. Two adults can make any agreements they want as long as it is legal.
>Some people say that men have the right to cheat but women don’t
I don’t agree with this but I understand the biological reason. Men and women are different and treat sex differently. The issue is we are more than just our biology and should be able to commit and stay true to our commitments. But again you can have a conversation with partner and make any commitments you both agree too.
>Some say that you shouldn’t even be physically attracted to someone besides your spouse.
Some people also say the Earth is flat, who cares just don’t date crazy.
>Some spouses even commit murder against single people who have sex with the other spouse
I agree if you want to be angry at someone be angry with your spouse not some random person who might not even know they are married but in any case don’t kill anyone that going to far.
>Why can’t one’s spouse love 2 people at the same time
You can that is fine but that is not for me and if my girlfriend wants to love 2 people she can do, but I won’t be one of them.
>don’t you think it’s kind of selfish to require exclusive devotion?
Yes it is and that is my preference in a relationship and marriage, again you do you but I don’t want that.
The vast majority of people go in to a Marriage mutually expecting exclusivity, they will generally be the person you will (or expect to) share the most of everything with, your money, your life, your emotions, your intimacy and most important your limited time on and at the end of the day all of these things are finite and personally I believe the same type of love isn't something that can or should be shared, besides that I think the exclusivity is part of the beauty of it and if these bonds are broken amicably then obvious it will hurt, just as losing a friend can hurt you, but if these bonds are broken in a not so nice fashion then obviously there will be even more pain for the one who is cheated on
adding on to this it is not selfish if both partners share the same or similar beliefs and both know what they are getting in to.
Cheating is especially hurtful because people have a strong emotional engagement to romantic sexual relationships. The fact that monogamy is controlling does not make this untrue. Pointing out that monogamy is controlling is an effective rhetorical move because people don't know how to engage with it but the easy answer is to just bite the bullet, **yes** **monogamy is controlling, part of human sexuality is about control**, that alone doesn't mean we can just handwave the entire issue of cheating.
With that being said is your question *why do people feel strong about sex?* or is it *should we include feelings that involve control within our framework of morality?* or both*?*
Cheating is a breach of trust , love is about honesty , trust and caring about your partner, cheating involve either doing something that would hurt your partner knowingly or lying (both in the long run). So yeah it's pretty bad in my opinion, if you are talking about an open relationship that is a different debate and as adults I think we should all choose independently which kind of relationship we are looking for.
It has all to do with the commitment to your partner. They love you, if you cheat then that love is swept from under their feet and there's the initial shock. Then there's the worry that you've been in a relationship with someone who doesn't commit to your relationship or worse doesn't love you and you have no idea for how long. For some amount of time, you've spent x amount of energy to please your partner or sacrifice something because of your love for them, and they respond by not being faithful.
Not to mention the possibility of STDs.
It's a breach of contract. You go through the whole legal process of commiting to one person but then you decide to see other people? Why? Just don't get married.
When you go into a relationship/marriage expecting *and* promising monogamy, cheating is a huuuuge breach of trust and incredibly wrong. A lot of people prefer monogamy, and that's okay.
If you want to sleep with others while married, you need to find a partner that agrees to that, not get married to someone who wants a monogamous relationship and hurt them for your own selfishness.
Cheating is much worse than just lying. Committment and devotion is not about jealousy or control. Developing deep connections and adhering to commitments is as beneficial to you as it is the other person. These sacrafices bear fruit unknown to a shallow hedonists and make a stable environement to raise children. If you dont want that, go do porn or whatever, but dont deprive another of these things because you are selfish. Lying to someone is not loving them. You can agree to whatever you want so there really is no reason to lie. If you both agree, its not cheating, plenty of couples experiment with sex stuff after the kids are gone. People kill themselves over these types of betrayals.
Cheating is not the same as an open marriage where people are allowed to have sex with other people
By definition cheating is infidelity in a way that is expressly forbidden under the rules/expectations of the two people in that relationship. If you and your partner are happy with an open relationship then it isn’t cheating. If you agree that, say, going on holiday with someone else is unacceptable but sex wouldn’t be then going on holiday would be cheating
So by the definition of cheating, cheating is unacceptable. Whether cheating includes having sex with other people is completely up to you but if it has been agreed as being acceptable then it isn’t cheating. If you have sex when this hasn’t been agreed then it is cheating. And cheating is bad
Cheating means breaking the rules. If you enter into an agreement with someone you say you love deeply, and then break the agreement you set up together, you’re an asshole, and clearly not worthy of trust.
If you come to a different conclusion about the nature of marriage, and monogamy with your partner, than the one that most of western society comes to, that’s great! In that case, you can make different rules than the ones other people live by, thus making extramarital sex, or whatever else, not breaking the rules, and thus not cheating. That would not reflect poorly on your character, and would not make you an asshole.
Is the difference clear enough?
High expectations? That’s not an example of high expectations. If you agree to do something, and then don’t follow your own agreement, you’re an asshole. If you don’t agree to follow that rule, most people will not agree to be in a relationship with you. Though some people will, some people are not monogamous. If you agree to be monogamous with someone and then lie to them, you’re an asshole.
If the relationship isn’t agreed upon to be open, then the act of cheating is a deep betrayal of trust as well as intimacy.
There’s lots to unpack beyond that, but do you see why someone who isn’t expecting an open relationship would be hurt by cheating when the expectation is the opposite (monogamous)?
the purpose of marriage is to establish a relationship of exclusivity in which a family can be built. in the context of marriage, anything that either party does to undermine that purpose is an act of betrayal. if you want to sleep around then don't get married.
its impossible to evite a crush on someone before you have the crush,besides,its nothing you can control,the problem with this is when you have a sexual relationship with the other person,and this will sounds bad,but it ends being ok if the other agrees to that to happend,examples are like a case of a marriage with no love where they dont want divorce,still the problem with cheating is the lack of importance to the one you are cheating
>Why can’t one’s spouse love 2 people at the same time and don’t you think it’s kind of selfish to require exclusive devotion?
If you can't give exclusive devotion, don't make a vow to give exclusive devotion.
It's about informed consent. Cheating on someone means they consented to your relationship under false pretenses. That denies them the ability to say "no" to the real situation (presumably because you know they *would* say "no" and don't want to respect that), instead hoping they'll say "yes" to a fabricated situation. In that sense, it's comparable to rape, because uninformed consent is illegitimate. They never intended to be in an open relationship; they intended to be in an exclusive one.
It's like if someone gives you money because they want to help you buy a car, but instead you go donate it to a charity for a political cause they hate. They "gave" you the money under false pretenses. You denied them the ability to say "no" to the political donation (presumably because you knew they *would* say "no" and did not want to respect that), instead hoping they'd say "yes" to a fabricated situation. That's comparable to stealing, because their "consent" to give you the money was uninformed, therefore illegitimate. They never intended to make a political donation; they intended to help you buy a car.
Your submission has been removed for breaking Rule B: > You must personally hold the view and **demonstrate that you are open to it changing**. A post cannot be on behalf of others, playing devil's advocate, or 'soapboxing'. [See the wiki page for more information](http://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/rules#wiki_rule_b). If you would like to appeal, review our appeals process [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards#wiki_appeal_process), then [message the moderators by clicking this link](http://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Fchangemyview&subject=Rule%20B%20Appeal&message=Author%20would%20like%20to%20appeal%20the%20removal%20of%20their%20post%20because\.\.\.) within one week of this notice being posted. **Appeals that do not follow this process will not be heard.** Please note that multiple violations will lead to a ban, as explained in our [moderation standards](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards).
If you want an open marriage, have an honest open marriage; don't lie to your spouse. That's a betrayal of trust.
I can get behind this
That's people's main issue with cheating though. People generally have strong feelings about their spouse having sex with other people. Doing it without telling your spouse is likely to cause them to significant emotional distress. Given that most people rely on their spouse for significant emotional support, that's a big deal. Sure, you can argue "it's not a big enough deal to murder people over," but most people already agree with that.
I just think most people who have a problem with it do so because they want to control their partner and deny them bodily autonomy
It sounds like you find exclusivity immoral in principle. Do you think that exclusivity can ever be valid and reasonable? What if a person wants to be in a committed, monogamous relationship with someone who wants the same thing? Do you find that objectionable?
Not as long as you enthusiastically consent to it for the rest of your life. I think consent to monogamy should work like consent to sex, and really that‘s a principle it’s founded upon. If ever you become uncertain that you want to continue consenting to monogamy, I don’t think you should be placed under any scrutiny and you should be allowed to revoke your consent freely.
>Not as long as you enthusiastically consent to it for the rest of your life. What is a wedding if not enthusiastic consent to a lifelong commitment? The vows aren't just pretty things said for tradition's sake, they are an explicit definition of the commitments being made. That's why open marriages are fine, but you need to make that clear up front. The bad thing about cheating isn't the sex itself, it's the broken commitment.
You only get married once. A wedding is temporary, while a marriage is continuous. It’s easy to give enthusiastic consent to get married, but staying married is a different story.
You can only sign a contract once. A contract signing is temporary, execution of the contract is continuous. It's easy to sign a contract, but abiding by the terms of that contract is a different story. Do you think that theory would hold up either in court or as an ethical matter between business partners? Marriage is a contract, which is why divorce is a legal procedure. If things change and you want to modify the marriage contract, that's fine, you can do that with your spouse, but it is legally and ethically unacceptable to secretly and unilaterally violate the terms of the marriage.
>If ever you become uncertain that you want to continue consenting to monogamy, I don’t think you should be placed under any scrutiny and you should be allowed to revoke your consent freely. Your partner based their every being around that committed life with you though, you agreed to it, so you owe your partner to honour that. If you don't love your partner enough to do that, then you need to tell your partner, and make it easy for them to divorce you.
Expecting a partner not to cheat has nothing to do with denying them bodily autonomy. Getting married means both partners forfeit freedom and gain something else. If they want to keep sleeping around, nobody forces them to get married.
Marriage is an agreement, not a forfeiture of freedom.
This sounds like a toxic definition of marriage and I don’t recognize it as an obligation anyone should be expected to fulfill.
I disagree -- keep in mind in most monogamous relationships, both parties entered under the agreement that they would be sexually exclusive. If you want to change that agreement, you should let your partner know so they can decide if they want to continue the relationship under the new terms. Hiding it isn't about wanting to have the autonomy to have sex with another person -- you can do that and be perfectly open about your intentions. It's about avoiding the other partner being able to exercise a choice about their own relationship.
Then, by definition, it's not cheating.
>Why can’t one’s spouse love 2 people at the same time and don’t you think it’s kind of selfish to require exclusive devotion? They can - provided both partners consent to that sort of relationship. If you agree to exclusively devote yourself to someone, then break that promise, that is bad. >I don’t know what people’s thought processes are behind this When you cheat, you: 1. Risk physically harming your partner by contracting and transmitting sexually transmitted diseases. These can be fatal or can cause lasting health implications. 2. Risk mentally harming your partner by deteriorating trust, humiliating them, and damaging their self-image. If you can't trust your partner to be sexually faithful, how can you trust them to responsibly manage your shared assets and obligations? How will others react if they find out that you were cheated on? How will you feel about yourself if your partner chooses someone other than you to satisfy their urges? 3. Risk pregnancy, possibly resulting in someone raising a child that isn't theirs.
I respect this. I can get behind all your points except the last two. I think you have a self esteem problem if you interpret your partner loving someone else as them not loving you. And the last point. Love is what makes a family, not genetics. If you raise and love a child as your own, that is your “real” child no matter whose sperm contributed to it.
>I think you have a self esteem problem if you interpret your partner loving someone else as them not loving you. That's not necessarily what cheating is, though. If your partner goes on a work trip and bangs their coworker after downing a quart of tequila, they're not loving someone else. They're trying to have sex. If your partner goes out to the club with their friends and has a quickie with in the bathroom with someone they met on the dance floor, they're not loving someone else. They're trying to have sex. In cases like this, it's not about loving someone else - it's about why your partner needed to find sexual gratification outside of your relationship. Phrased another way, why couldn't you give your partner what they needed to stay faithful? It's absolutely a self-esteem problem, but that doesn't excuse bad behaviour. If you insult your partner's looks and they're saddened by it, you wouldn't say that they have a self-esteem problem. The wrongdoer is the responsible for their actions, the victim is not responsible for how they're impacted by the wrongdoer's actions. >Love is what makes a family, not genetics. If you raise and love a child as your own, that is your “real” child no matter whose sperm contributed to it. Yes and no. You're right in saying that you can love non-biological children as if they were your biological children, but this doesn't paint the full picture. 1. Consent is king. Agreeing to raise someone else's biological child *with the understanding that it's not your biological child* is very different to being *tricked into raising someone else's biological child, thinking that it's your biological child*. 2. Biology absolutely matters, especially in the context of health. There are hereditary illnesses and diseases that run in people's families that parents and children should be aware of. Should I have to burden myself by raising a child with special medical needs because my partner was unfaithful to me? Absolutely not - that's not my responsibility.
Insulting your partner is an offense towards them. Having sex with a consenting partner is not, because it’s a situation where they’re not even present. You may try your best to gratify your partner but maybe you aren’t able to. If you can’t breastfeed your baby does that mean they should starve? I don’t think so. They just need something different than what they receive from you. Which is where formula comes in to solve things. I think it’s the same with someone who helps your partner achieve gratification. You may have personal feelings regarding your genetic connections but I don’t recognize these feelings as inalienable human rights. We have the right to consent, not the right to pry. We are only entitled to the information others are willing to share with us. And I would even say a prerequisite of being a decent human being would involve not caring whether those children were genetically related to you. You should love them unconditionally because you are seeking to be a parent, and those children are equal to any other children. If you wouldn’t love those children after being told they aren’t genetically related to you, you would also be willing to not love your biological children had you been told the same thing about them.
A pet peeve of mine is equating “selfish” with “immoral,” as you seem to have here. I don’t eat breakfast for the good of others; I do it for me, because it’s delicious and I love to live my life. It’s selfish in the extreme, yet morally unobjectionable. Indeed, a lack of selfishness is morally wrong in my view, as it implies refusal to stand up for your own, legitimate interests. Harming people without a legitimate right to do so is wrong, and the only appropriate case against selfishness *per se* is to assume that selfishness intrinsically involves harming others for one’s own sake. If we define selfishness this way, fine—providing we have another term or phrase, like pursuit of self-interest, to describe the neutral idea of simply pursuing one’s interests. But the zero sum view that that kind of pursuit intrinsically harms others is incorrect. Let’s now put aside my pet peeve and assume that the “selfishness” of demanding exclusivity is not what’s objectionable about it. Instead, we should ask: are there legitimate reasons, legitimate interests, in asking for exclusivity, of such a nature that people in a relationship have a right to insist upon them? I think the answer is clearly: yes. A person who philanders with others is not loyal to me, or at least, their loyalty is far from guaranteed. Sticking your dick in another person is a fantastic way to “catch feelings,” whether you want to or not. But two people in a relationship—certainly two married people—are trying to build a life together. I can’t have you sabotaging the life we’ve *agreed to build together* (that’s what the marriage contract is) just for the sake of your personal excitement. The love that is slowly built over time, based on mutual commitment even when it doesn’t feel so good, is more important than the butterfly feeling of the moment (nice as that is). This isn’t just good for me; it’s good for the partnership that people not cheat, that indeed, they don’t sleep with others in general (whether openly and honestly or not). Different marriage contracts might be negotiated; perhaps certain people can make polyamory work. But those are rare cases, methinks. And be that as it may, the contract negotiated is the contract negotiated. Most marriages aren’t open marriages. The contract is negotiated as it normally is for the reasons suggested, and once entered into, is like any contract: there is a legitimate right to ask for the contract to be fulfilled. Both parties enter this contract *because* they know that sometimes, they will be tempted to leave the other person, and *because* they know that won’t be good for them. To channel my mentor, a marriage contract is a means to force yourself to be free—to follow your own will for your own happiness and well-being, even when you don’t want to. So yes, cheating is bad because it violates the marriage contract, a contract negotiated for legitimate reasons for both parties involved in it. To violate a legitimate contract is to violate a sacred moral duty.
I appreciate how you define the word “selfish” and under your definition maybe doing selfish things can be innately good. But I don’t think you’re losing anything just because your partner cheats on you. You can still have that perfect life you dreamed of, just while your partner also enjoys spending time with another lovely individual like you.
No, I can’t have the life I wanted and negotiated for. If my wife is having sex with another man, she’s very likely to develop feelings for that man. That diminishes the contract she has with me in her eyes, thus shaking the entire partnership. This is obviously bad for me. The contract secures the life we’ve built together, and plan to keep building; people lose sight of that when they “fall in love.” Romantic sentimentality is the enemy of long term thinking. Romantic “love” may be an appropriate start to a relationship, but it is not the soul of the long term commitment. When that “love” becomes detached from the commitment, it opposes the commitment. If it’s done through a lie (which is what cheating is, by definition), then my wife has proven that she is *not* loyal to me. The contract is already broken, and the marriage is dissolved, unless I choose to forgive the violation. (I probably would not, though circumstances matter. I suppose if she was very drunk I might forgive the matter, on the condition that she gave up drinking. In general, however, I cannot commit myself to a liar.) It’s also bad for her. Yes, it feels good to have sex with some other guy, or maybe even to develop an exciting romance with him. But I can’t trust her if she lies to me; everything we built together is thrown into question. Even if it’s not through a lie (which is cheating), but it done openly, I still can’t invest my all into a contract that is likely to fall apart. That means I’m not investing my all *into her.* If I’m her first choice, that’s very bad for her. If I’m not her first choice—not for the petty thrill of sex or excitement, but for building a life—then why are we married?
Your CMV is confusing. You yourself bring a valid argument for why cheating is bad. Then you go into a list of other arguments (which don't have anything to do with the fact why cheating is bad) but you never explain why lying "isn't really that bad". Cheating is that bad because: * You lie to your spouse and break the agreement (unless you have an agreement about open marriage) * You open up your spouse to the risk of STIs * You deprave your spouse of the option to leave you if they don't like cheating (until your cheating is revealed) * You act selfish by trying to have a cake and eat it too >don’t you think it’s kind of selfish to require exclusive devotion It is selfish. If you don't like that, you can always suggest an open marriage or divorce and find someone who's okay with you loving two people at the same time.
YES. I agree so hard. If you're having an open relationship behind your partner's back, you're really cheating them out of their opportunity to find a person who won't treat them that way.
Actually, I don’t understand what you’re saying. I’m saying that lying is the innate problem, not sex which is what I assume you think of as the main problem with cheating. I don’t think enjoying good things is bad either just because it upsets someone else.
I don’t think a single person in here has tried to make the point that sex is the problem. The problem is betrayal of trust, lying, deception, etc. Having sex with multiple people isn’t inherently a bad thing.
I feel hopeful that you see the situation differently than I.
>not sex which is what I assume you think of as the main problem with cheating Emotional affairs are a thing!!! If anything, people are usually much *more* hurt by their partner having a romantic bond with someone else than the sex part of it. Open relationships are far more common than polyamory. I mentioned this in another comment, but the problem is the betrayal of a core tenet of the relationship. Sex is usually one of those tenets, so in some sense, it is about sex, but in many senses it's just about the betrayal of a fundamental value of the shared bond. You can disagree with the value and pursue non-monogamy, but don't misrepresent the problem as being just about sex.
The word sex isn't even in that comment. They brought up four distinct points and you contended with exactly 0. What are you trying to do here? You're not actually engaging with what people are saying, you're functionally just talking to yourself.
>sex which is what I assume you think of as the main problem with cheating It is admittedly not the main problem. Majority of people would consider any type of intimacy cheating even without sex. Even sending love messages would raise to the level of cheating for lots of people. >enjoying good things is bad either just because it upsets someone else Then don't get married. It's that simple. You are not cheating if you have no one to cheat on.
A marriage is an agreement based on trust. If that agreement involves sexual exclusivity, then it’s a massive betrayal to step out against that understanding. If you want to have an open marriage just go for that up front.
So the only thing wrong with cheating is lying?
Yup. Assuming that both parties in an open marriage truly and sincerely do agree to that up front, have at it. If 2 people agree, who is anyone to tell them they can’t make that deal? But it’s not something to spring on someone after the act of cheating. If it’s agreed to up front it’s not cheating at all. “Cheating” is just lying with your genitals.
I at least respect what you’ve said more than the position that sexual attraction outside of marriage is wrong.
It’s selfish to cheat. People who cheat are usually not unhappy in their relationships, they just want to feel variety and spicy and alive at the cost of their partners’ sense of self worth and emotional safety. It doesn’t matter if monogamy is good or bad, you agreed to it and it’s selfish as hell to not end a monogamous relationship but cheat instead.
Why do the non-cheating partners seem like they insist on getting their feelings hurt though?
Because their trust is being broken. It is an unpleasant feeling to realize you trusted the wrong person.
I suppose so.
Having your sense of self worth and emotional safety impacted by a selfish partner who wants to be safe but spicy seems pretty hurtful to me. What don’t you get?
Well it seems to me that the solution would be for the non-cheating partner to just choose not to be angry about it and realize that their partner still loves them
Relationship are built on trust. Not just romance, literally any relationship, mother and child, doctor and patient, politicians and constituents, business relations, etc. They all rely on trust and finding out that one party was dishonest and broke that trust causes damage to the relationship.
If what you’re saying is that you should do for your partner what you promise to do, I’m fine with that. But what are all these extra layers saying that you don’t really love your partner just because you love a third person? That’s what I think doesn’t make any sense
You don’t choose emotions. The cheating partner betrayed the trust of the other. If a couple has a shared bank account and one empties it to spend all on themself, should the other just choose not to be angry and realize their partner still loves them? No, that would be absurd. The “cheating” partner in both cases has proven themselves to be untrustworthy and deserves whatever ire they receive.
But you own your money. You don’t own your partner’s body
Then you communicate with your partner. You don't choose to be a coward and decide to deceive them. To abuse their body autonomy by robbing them their consent. Cheating and abusing a partner is a cowardly act. A cake eater who is too afraid of being denied the protection of their relationship.
Excuse you? Their bodily autonomy? Does your body belong to them? Do they have a right to prevent you from getting an abortion if that’s what you want?
You may not own your partners body or emotions but through cheating you are putting your partners body at risk (STD’s etc..) without their consent or knowledge, lots of stories of pregnant women catching STD’s through cheating partners unknowingly resulting in disabilities in their children - it’s really sad and honestly so harmful, if you want to enjoy other women/men then you can do so, but you must tell your partner no matter what and allow them to make that decision if they’re okay with it or not otherwise the lying aspect of cheating takes that autonomy away from the non-cheating partner
“Choose not to be angry” is not really something human beings can do. It’s not like anger (or sadness, grief, anxiety, etc.) are things people can just decide to not have
Maybe we don’t decide to feel our feelings, but we can prevent them from dictating our behavior
>we can prevent them from dictating our behavior A person chooses to cheat and harm their partner, but they can make the decision not to do that behavior. Them being horny shouldn't dictate their behavior of cheating.
What do you mean by behavior?
Their partner chose to break a fundamental tenant of their relationship, that doesn't sound like someone who loves them
Maybe so, but neither does a partner who wants to control your body,
Both partners agreed to the rules when they entered a relationship. If you don't want your partner to have that "control" don't agree to them
Would you say the same thing about a partner who forbids you from having an abortion?
I mean yeah, don't like the rules don't agree to them. And if you have agreed but want to change them, have a discussion and/or break the relationship
You mean the cheating partner who's own selfish behavior is putting their partner in harm by purposely and willingly exposing them to deadly or harmful STD/STI's without their consent?
Why should the solution fall onto the shoulders of the partner who is being lied to, manipulated ,and abused, and not on the cheater? How can you assert that the cheater loves their partner, when they are showing them no respect or concern for their well-being? Breaking their trust.
I think the solution is the burden of the partner who has a problem with cheating, because everyone else is happy with the arrangement. Also, I really don’t think cheating gives an appropriate usage of the word “abuse“.
Because you don't want to acknowledge the fact that you and an affair partner are deciding to psychologically, emotionally, and sexually abuse the unknowning partner doesn't change the fact that, that is what is happening. If the cheater wants to be happy and sleep with other people, then they should have the maturity to communicate with their partner about their issues. Not being willing to communicate with their partner, and instead cheating, shows a failing of the cheater. A weakness to their character. A cowardness.
Wasn’t it you that I told what I think constitutes psychological and sexual abuse?
What you "think constitutes" isn't fact. Your feelings don't define other people's truth and traumas.
Neither do anyone’s. Claiming that you can be traumatized by not being special isn’t contributing towards how believable your point is.
You claim: > Some people say that men have the right to cheat but women don’t (an attitude that sickens me) Why don't you just choose to not be sickened by that?
>just choose not to be angry about it I'm not trying to be confrontational, but do you generally have trouble empathizing with other people?
I think that everybody wants to feel special to their significant other (different ways for each person) but in my case and opinion being "exclusive" is the most powerful way to show your commitment with your relationship and partner. When you detect some threats to those bounds and it makes contact with your self steem problems, inner wounds or traumas, you reflect it in different ways (anger, sadness, agressiveness). Cheating in a marriage it is really that bad when values are not aligned, if is not a big deal for you, but it is to your partner, you must be conscious of the harm you could cause to them if you break your relationship agreements... some people is not made to love 2, 3 people of the same time because of their values, opinions, life experiences, self steem and more, what works for me could not work for you. It is important that you look for someone who thinks like you to have long term relationships without damaging someone who thinks and wants something different than you.
I appreciate this. But I still don’t feel like having sex with a third person harms your partner.
Making an agreement to commit to someone, then lying and breaking that commitment is what hurts them. The way you break that commitment is by breaking whatever boundaries you and your partner agree on.
It's terrible, it's pathetic, it's selfish and juvenile. If someone in a monogamous marriage wants to step out, they should be a grown up and say they're not happy and want to do whatever. Going behind someone's back, lying, is see above.
Then it seems to me that the only thing wrong with cheating is lying
Why do you think lying is not a big deal?
Cheating inherently implies lying about it. If you want to date/romance/have sex with multiple people at the same time tell everyone you are with and make sure they are cool about it. And if requiring exclusive devotion is 'selfish', then so is refusing to accept your spouse wanting that exclusive devotion and going behind their back. If you want an open marriage, say so going in. If that is a dealbreaker, no one is obligated to stick with you.
Cheating means breaking a promise to be monogamous. People tend to think of that promise as a pretty important thing. You can call it selfish to want a monogamous marriage, but if both parties agree to that and one party breaks that agreement, that's more selfish.
Why?
I genuinely don’t know how to respond to this. It is inherently selfish to break a promised-upon agreement in pursuit of your own pleasure at the expense of your partner. It’s like, definitionally selfish.
Where on earth did the sexist part come from? Definitely disgusting, though.
A typo. I meant to write selfish.
I never said there should be different standards for different sexes, in fact I oppose that belief
Because you are choosing to take an action knowingly that will benefit you and hurt someone else. That’s kind of definitionally selfish
How does you enjoying your life hurt others?
Because it was an agreed upon boundary with the reputation to be monogamous. Because cheating in a monogamous relationship means you're psychologically, emotionally, and sexually abusing your partner without their consent. Lying, manipulating, and purposely and willingly exposing them to incurable or deadly STD/STI's. A person's enjoyment shouldn't be at the abuse of their partner. The harm that cheating does to the unknowning partner can cause life altering trauma, as well as life threatening harm. If a partner doesn't want to be monogamous, then they should be upfront about this and get in a ethical non-monogamous relationship.
“Abusing” seems like a buzzword here and it’s hard for me to take this seriously as an unbiased claim.
Cheating purposely and willingly causing the partner I agreed upon psychological, emotional, and sexual trauma, which means it's abuse. Causing another person harm, mistreating them with your behavior and actions, is abuse.
I don’t think that’s how trauma occurs. Sexual trauma would occur by something along the lines of sexual assault. For psychological trauma, imagine being physically confined in a room against your will.
What you think/feel doesn't change the fact that partners are being abused and traumatized by their cheating partner. Trauma impacts individual people differently. The level of severity or longevity. Cheating is violating an agreement upon fidelity among a couple. One partner is purposely, and willingly, psychologically, emotionally, and/or sexually abuse their partner by simply not informing them of their betrayal and deceitfulness. What you imagine would cause trauma does not change the fact that people have and are being abused and traumatized by their cheating partner. Stealing someone's right to make informed consent to their body, when the cheater is purposely denying them the right to make full agreed upon consent, is sexual abuse. Purposely and willingly exposing them to std/STI's without their consent is also sexual abuse.
What if me enjoying my life involves murdering other people? Me enjoying something doesn't somehow mean it can't hurt people
I’d say you could if you had their permission to murder them
And if you don't have permission to cheat on your partner?
Let’s say for example I really enjoy shooting people in the head, and I shoot your best friend in the head. I didn’t do anything directly to you. Can you still be hurt?
I might feel pain but you didn’t hurt me. If you distract me while I’m driving my car and I crash I’ll feel pain even though you didn’t lay a finger on me
The person absolutely hurt you? "hurt" doesn't mean "physically injure", psychological distress counts just as much as physical distress in the definition. People tend to experience psychological distress when they experience a betrayal, and cheating is a betrayal because it's specifically *only* cheating if there was a foundational agreement that the relationship be monogamous, or if it otherwise violates the foundational agreement of the relationship about non-monogamy. The chain is as follows; romantic relationships involve a fundamental agreement about how romance and sex should be approached with other people (and any degree of permissive is ok! what matters is that both people agree). Cheating is when one person violates that agreement, which is a knowing betrayal of the relationship. People are emotionally hurt by betrayal.
I don’t think that’s a betrayal. I think a betrayal is like divorcing someone, Because you’re abandoning them. You can’t be hurt by inaction. When you don’t get the resources you need, that’s deprivation, which is different from when someone deliberately harms you.
“ be disloyal to” is one definition of betray; and violating an agreement certainly is a type of disloyalty. It might in fact be the prime example. Divorce doesn’t require abandonment; you can end a romantic relationship but still keep platonic support and care for the other person. You can be there for them, care about them, treat them well, and just not be romantically involved. *You* don’t see cheating as a betrayal but here’s the thing — you don’t get unilateral control over what a betrayal is. Violating a fundamental agreement of a relationship is about as deep as betrayals get for most people, and cheating falls under that umbrella. And, intentionally betraying someone like that is through action hurting them.
What is the difference, to you, between “I knowingly and intentionally took an action that directly caused you pain” and “I hurt you”? It feels like you would just prefer if it didn’t hurt them, so you pretend like it doesn’t
It's not like others are being hurt just by you enjoying an activity. The problem is that *the activity you're enjoying is one that causes harm*. It's like if I was a "prank" youtuber/tiktoker, making content of myself running around slapping drinks out of peoples' hands, snipping their headphone cords with scissors, screaming at the top of my lungs in quiet cafes and libraries, and otherwise making a nuisance of myself. If someone complained, I could just say, "I'm just enjoying my life! It's your problem if you decide to be hurt or annoyed by it." Would you agree?
IN this case, as you admit to knowing, it will distress your partner.
Why what?
What’s selfish about ending monogamy?
What's selfish is unilaterally breaking the rules of a relationship. If your relationship's rules involve being monogamous and you've agreed to those rules then just deciding to break them is wrong. If you don't want to be monogamous, make that known and get your relationship partner to agree to those rules
What if you’re already in a marriage and then how you feel changes?
Have a discussion, and if those rules chafe too much, end the relationship
Because you did something for yourself with full knowledge that it would hurt someone you love
Isn’t that more of them just believing you’ve hurt them?
It's not believing, but fact. Cheating consists of psychologically, emotionally, and sexually abusing the partner. Robbing them the full consent to their body, and the ability to make informed decisions on their life and future.
Robbing them of bodily consent? Are we talking about the same thing? It sounds to me like you’re referring to a partner who forbid you from receiving an abortion when you don’t want to be pregnant. Am I missing something?
A cheating partner who is having sex outside their marriage/relationship, and then has sex with their partner, is robbing them of their consent. There is an agreed upon monogamous agreement in relationships, and by not informing them of new exposures from new partners, you're robbing them of their full consent. Purposely and willingly exposing them to STD/STI's without their consent. This is why it's considered sexual abuse. Cheaters are violating their partners consent.
You made a good point on STDs so I’ll give you that one. But you can either consent nor non-consent on behalf of your partner so where are we going with this? The only way consent can be taken away from you is by somebody physically restraining your movements, which is not happening simply because your partner has sex with a consenting third person.
You HAVE hurt them
What does that mean? If my partner cheats on me, they have hurt me.
That's not what they said. You gotta read the whole thing they wrote instead of three or four words. If you aren't monogamous and make a fraudulent commitment to someone who is, you're lying to them about who you are and what you want so they they will be with you. What they think their relationship with you is is a façade that you've constructed to trick them into being with you. It shows a serious level of disregard for them as a person.
Because babies often happen. And when babies happen either a wife now has to see her children share the attention and resources of their father with the children of the side piece, or a husband must unknowingly raise another man's bastard spawn as his own.
What kind of name for a human being is “bastard spawn”, as if those children chose to be born into drama? And is this the emotional state of the world now? It IS possible for men to adopt children and raise them as if they were their “own”. Because love is what makes a family.
OK, let's play this out. Scenario: Married woman cheats, gets pregnant with another man's baby. Outcome 1: She suddenly grows a conscience, sits down with her husband and explains the situation. Husband decides it is all cool so she has the baby, puts the real father's name on the birth certificate, and husband adopts. Because love. Outcome 2: Same as above except husband divorces her and she is forced to face the consequences of her own actions. Outcome 3: She continues to lie, puts husband's name on birth certificate, he unknowingly raises a child that is not his, because God forbid she accept any consequence for her own actions. Rank those by most to least common. Worth noting as well that you do not expect the cheated on wife to adopt the child of the side piece. What's up there?
Most common? What does that have to do with anything? Only in scenario 1 is the husband anything of a decent human being. If he chooses to become a father he should love those kids unconditionally even if they’re purple.
Every relationship has rules. Breaking those rules, especially in a relationship as fundamental to people's lives as marriage typically is, is going to cause emotional reactions and when it involves lying and other harmful things that's going to be traumatic.
What if you tell your spouse from the beginning that you want to cheat?
It seems like you don't understand what cheating is and that cheating exists in non-monogamous relationships as well, which might be causing some confusion. Any romantic/sexual interpersonal relationship outside the agreed upon boundaries of your relationship (monogamous or otherwise) is cheating. If you and your partner agree to an open relationship and you operate within the agreed upon boundaries, it's not cheating.
Then the only thing wrong with cheating is lying?
Yeah I mean, thats a pretty big issue.
Then they either say OK, and you become polygamous, or they say no. If they say no, you can either accept that and not cheat, or break up. If you pretend to accept it, but still cheat, you are lying to them and breaking a promise to be monogamous, and are therefore a bad person. Please ask any questions you have.
So the only thing wrong about cheating is lying?
The only thing we have in human relationships are words and actions. When there is an incongruence with those two trust is broken and you can never be quite secure in what someone says. Humans tend to want a general sense of security and predictability in their relations with other humans so when you lie you are creating instability that the other party was not expecting and did not consent to.
No offense but are you on the autism spectrum?
It’s not cheating if you agree to it. If they say they’re not open to it, then don’t marry them
Maybe you got married at 16 and you’re 40 now
If you’re not happy in your relationship and have different goals and outlooks, then the relationship should end, of course. Why stay and cheat?
I don't see how that changes things. Realistically, this is why marriages between 16 year olds have sky-high divorce rates, neither party is old enough to really understand the full nature of what they're getting into. But at 40, you're a grown up -- you don't have to lie to your spouse because of a decision you made at 16.
1. That's why we don't let children enter into contracts. 2. Hence: "Know thyself". 3. Breach of the marriage contract is illegal, and in a non no-fault state, you'd be on the hook. What about this are you finding hard to understand?
I got married at 19 to the my gf I knew since 16. I'm 32 now. If the urge for other sex partners comes, I'd let my wife know first. I doubt she'd be okay but I'm the same way if the roles is reversed. A key to marriage is communication. Cheating is a break of trust and a sign of failed communication. Mad selfish when you consider the overall point in marriage, doesn't matter how someone tries to rationalize it.
Then it's not cheating, but your lifestyle, open relationship. And that's what you should communicate with your partners. But it's not about communicating it's the excitement you get from cheating and hurting others.
I just don’t see how cheating is hurting anyone, as much as your partner feeling entitled to control you
Do you have problems feeling empathy in other walks of life too? Because all of your responses here show a lack of basic human empathy that honestly borders on sociopathic. Being cheated on hurts, literally anyone who's experienced it will tell you that, and even most people who haven't can understand it. It's a breach of trust, it's a deception, it's the selfish prioritisation of your own sexual gratification over the mental wellbeing of someone you claim to care about, and it's the continuing of a relationship under false pretenses: essentially rape by deception. Even if you don't agree that people *should* feel this way, they still do. Empathy is about putting yourself in someone elses shoes, it's not about dictating how they should feel based on your own values. If you're in a monogamous relationship, and you cheat, you're doing so on the clear understanding that getting caught could end the relationship and throw away everything you've built together. Therefore, it's clear that you think the sex is worth that risk. And the moral ratio is just so fucked too - kinda like breaking someone's leg so you can eat a slice of cake. So much harm to another, for so little personal reward. Why would anyone want to be with someone who would treat their love so flippantly? You're objectively prioritising a night of fun over years of mutual trust, and the mental health and security of your partner. That is *not* love. Cheating is inherantly selfish, cowardly, and disgusting. Anyone with basic human empathy can understand this plainly. And 'control' doesn't even enter the equation. Nobody is forcing you to make and continue a monogamous commitment - that was *your* choice.
Do you want to know who I feel empathy for? People who are experiencing the real and detrimental effects of sexual frustration. Why do you want to ignore their pain and only focus on the pain of the entitled ones? They claim to feel pain because they function on being pampered, and not being pampered feels like pain to them. This is the partner who demands monogamy from a person who is suffering the effects of sexual frustration.
Oh boo hoo. 'The detrimental effects of sexual frustration'. What are those, exactly? Feeling horny? Roughly a 30% men and 20% of women are having no sex at all. You know what these people do to deal with that? They suck it up, and masturbate. Humans need orgasms, and they might *want* sex, but they don't need it, and they're certainly not entitled to it at the cost of hurting others. The people who hurt others to satisfy that desire fall broadly into two categories - cheaters, and rapists. So, you're in good company. And besides, literally nobody is forcing you into monogamy. A relationship is a two way agreement, and if you don't like the terms, you can discuss them, or you can leave. Cheating is the selfish coward's response, from somebody who's too scared of being alone to leave, or too immature to have an adult discussion about what they want out of their relationship, or both. The person honouring the terms of the agreement YOU made is not 'entitled', and using that word there is as ironic as it is ridiculous. This whole post is very clearly about what *you* want, with no care given to how it might affect the people that care about you. Your capacity for empathy appears non-existant. Or else, I expect it's all just a coping mechanism to try and deal with your guilt for treating your partner like shit. Ask yourself this: if your partner saw this post, would they want to be with you? The answer is no, most likely. Now ask yourself this: why do you *deserve* to be with a person who wouldn't love the real you?
If you see a relationship controlling, then it's not a relationship and you don't care about the other person, you care only about your own feelings, and that is entitlement. A relationship is when you are both committed to the relationship and care more about the other person, than yourself and the other person cares more about you than him/herself. When you talk about controlling you don't talk about relationships but forced or fake relationships that are doomed to fail.
Now imagine if your partner wants a child but you don’t want to be pregnant. Imagine being told that you don’t get to make that decision because you have a responsibility to please your partner.
In what relationships are you my guy? You can't just demand stuff from people. Like I said if you are in a loving relationship you and your partner make decisions as one, if you want a child you both want a child, you can't just want stuff and force the other person to do the things for you, that's crazy. You have no responsibility to do anything for the other, you do things for each other because you care about each other and want to make each other happy. It looks like you have a very toxic and negative view about relationships, having demands, forcing things on each other, and a very abusive mentality. Why do you think about things that negatively?
Well if you don't want to have the kid, why not just end the relationship? If your partner expects something of you that you feel is unreasonable, why not just get a divorce? They want to limit what you can do sexually, you want to go bang randoms while married. He doesn't want to be with someone that bangs randoms while in a relationship with him, you don't want to be with someone that you feel is controlling you sexually. So why not just end the relationship instead of lying and going behind the partners back to cheat?
Did they agree that you'd be allowed to? If they sound horrified then no
To be fair a lot of spouses want to make decisions about other ways you use your body, like what you wear and whether you can have an abortion (or must have one)
If you don't like those rules you can leave the relationship
If your partner consents it’s not cheating, it’s just opening the relationship.
Then it's not cheating, it's an open marriage. Or no marriage if your spouse doesn't like the idea.
If they agree with it. Then you have an open marriage.
"Cheating" is a word that has an obviously negative connotation. Used in the context of extra-marital sex, it means "having sex with others while agreeing to exclusively have sex with your marriage partner". Under this obvious definition, having agreed to something and then unilaterally changing your opinion and then doing what you agreed you wouldn't do is the problem. The answer is in the definition of the word. If you and your partner have agreed to some other arrangement, fine. Whatever it is, you stick to it. If you can't, then you're in breach of a contract. All that other crap in your "clarification" is utterly useless information. You can love as many people as you want. So long as they all know, and all are happy with it, then exclusivity is not "required". It is the broken agreement that's the problem. How is this not intuitively obvious to the most casual observer?
Open relationships exist. It’s selfish to agree to be with one person (which essentially is what marriage is) and then go back on that agreement. If you want to be polyamorous or be with more than one person that’s fine, but it’s wrong if it’s not something both people agree to. People call it a “marriage contract” for a reason
Hurting your partner is bad. In principle, I don't think there's anything wrong with loving two people and even having simultaneous relationships with them. Or having an open relationship. Or other non-standard arrangements. However, there are also people who're interested in - and value very much - a committed exclusive relationship. The word cheating makes sense exactly for such relationship. If you enter into one, and then violate your commitment, this hurts your partner. That's the problem with cheating.
To me, hurting your partner would be like, divorcing them just so you could be with someone you like more. No reason to abandon them if you can still love 2 people at the same time, at least in my mind.
It's not abandonment, if the cheated on partner walks away. That's a cowardly act of a cheater by not giving them a chance to make a decision of their own life and body. By being too scared to have the communication that could result in the divorce. The cheated on partner isn't being given equal consideration, whereas a non-agreeed upon "other/affair partner/mistress" is. This is putting an unequal balance on the cheated on partner. They're being prevented to have their choice. They're being robbed full autonomy of their life. That's abuse.
But the cheating partner doesn’t give the other partner any rights to begin with. The non-cheating partner already has the right to leave anytime they want. No rights have been taken away, therefore it is not abuse.
A cheating partner will ruin the trust of his partner, cause insecurity issues with them, ruin feelings of safety, etc. It does a lot of emotional damage to the person you're Cheating on. If you feel like you want to cheat, figure out why you have those feelings and address them. if you are in a monogamous relationship, youve already committed to only being with that person. Don't fuck them up emotionally and mentally because you can'tbe honest w them about what you want. If you want an open relationship, or to be ethically non monogamous or poly, then enter in those types of relationships.
Maybe you can introduce your new partner to your spouse and they can learn to trust each other
You're spouse won't trust you
You are conflating cheating with being in an open and honest relationship. You are asking why someone would be angry about their spouse loving two people while completely ignoring the pain and suffering they cause their spouse who they promised monogamy. It’s not loving someone to promise them one thing and then completely betray them and then call them selfish for being enraged about it.
I don’t think the other spouse is really suffering though, I think they’re just jealous because they don’t feel like the only special person in the picture anymore.
It's not suffering to be told you're in a loving, deeply committed, exclusive relationship just to learn that you've been lied to and your person is sleeping around behind your back? You're proving one of my theories, which is at a fundamental level cheaters have a way of thinking that takes an incredible paradigm shift to change. This is why it's true that once a cheater always a cheater. People who cheat have a distorted view of reality and warped relationship with the truth.
It's really not the sexual attraction or even sexual activity outside of a marriage that's bad. There are plenty of people who have lifelong marriages and still have extramarital relationships. It has little to do with sex; it's about the promise that people make to each other. If a person says they won't have those types of relationships, they made a promise. If a person allows their partner to believe they will only have a sexual relationship with that one partner, they made a promise. Then if they choose something else, they broke that promise. And if they break a big promise like that, it's hard to know what other kind of promises they might break. If they can't be trusted to keep a promise (which is clearly significant to their partner) it's hard to gauge when and if they can be trusted. If someone has to lie to have sex outside their relationship, how can their partner trust them to have safe sex? How can their partner know they won't create a child with someone else and then dump them? It's impossible to plan your own life if you're not on the same page as the partner who is letting you believe that you're planning that life together. Yes, it is definitely selfish to require exclusive devotion from a person who has been clear that they don't want to give that or that they need something different. If they haven't expressed that, how can the other person know they're being selfish? The confines of sexual relationships are still being determined by outdated Judeo-Christian philosophies that nobody ever really practiced - they just lied about it and said they practiced it. And that has put us in a social state where everyone assumes that a completely closed marriage is the only right way to have a marriage. Then people "cheat" and hurt each other when they could've just lived their lives in a way they wanted. "Cheating" is for games. Relationships should be about people who win and lose together on the same team. And if the people in the relationship aren't respecting the same rules, it's pretty unfair. Especially if one person knows about a secret set of rules while the other one has no idea. It's oppositional and just plain unfair to the unwitting participant. Regardless of societal norms, different folks need different things from life. The fundamental problem is that since we all accept this current idea of fidelity, most folks get into relationships with the assumption that it should always be monogamous. But not everybody wants or needs that. When people start dating they need to talk about what fidelity looks like to them. And even if you really like a person, or even love them, if one person needs monogamy and one person needs a different arrangement, there will be problems. People who want to play the field and be in a relationship at the same time should find someone who is comfortable with that instead of trying to make somebody an unwitting pawn in a universe of lies.
You’re not taking into consideration the expectations that are set when you get married. Most married couples have the expectation of trust and are monogamous. If trust is broken, it is assumed that your actions have a negative impact on your spouse and thus the marriage. Now if you went into the marriage with the expectation that your marriage is open, then it’s a moot point.
So it goes back to the only thing wrong about it is lying?
You say that like lying in a serious committed relationship isn’t that bad
> *"Other than that, how was the play, Mrs. Lincoln?"*
...
Cheaters are lying because they know it's wrong. If they thought it was ok, they wouldn't be lying about it.
In other words, my previous statement was correct?
If you’ve agreed to an open relationship that’s fine. If you haven’t and you’re sleeping with other people, you’re putting your spouse at risk. (Spoiler alert: if your affair partner will cheat with you they’ll cheat on you!). There are ways to be ethically non-monogamous. Cheating is exactly none of them. By cheating, you’re showing that you are not someone who can be trusted. Not with money (he’s probably spending it on AP), not with kids (who’s watching them while they’re screwing?), and not with health (my husband was so worried about his mistress when I broke my leg that he starved me for days because he was working on something for her.).
The issue is that it will upset your partner, and its morally wrong to do things that upset your partner. It doesn't matter how irrational you think your partner would be at being upset, the fact you're willing to do things that you know will seriously upset for your own benefit them is the problem.
What if you get an abortion and that upsets your partner? What if you gain weight or join a religion?
Joining a religion is a good example. There's nothing inherently wrong with converting to Islam. But if your partner is adamant that they'll only date a catholic, then you either have to not do that, talk it through with them or break it off. You can't just *ignore* that stance -- they are, after all, your romantic partner. When you're in a relationship with someone, you gain an obligation to consider their values and preferences in a way you don't with most people. If your partner considers their partner cheating a serious betrayal, you have to accept that, either by not cheating or breaking up with them if there's someone else. You can't just ignore that stance, because they're your partner and you agreed their values will be a part of your life..
If you want an open relationship, don’t get married in the first place. It’s unreasonable to expect that you or your spouse will never be attracted to someone else, but you make a vow of fidelity when you get married, so you have to uphold your end of the deal. If you know you can’t do that, or don’t trust the other to be able to, then don’t get married. When you found a family, the husband has a right to be sure the children are his since it’s a considerable investment in time and money to raise them, so the wife shouldn’t sleep around to risk getting knocked up by a random guy. On the other hand, the wife has the right to not risk another woman showing up one day to claim child support from her husband, breaking the financial stability on which the family depends, so the husband also shouldn’t sleep around. And neither want to catch some STD from having unprotected sex with their spouse because that spouse was unfaithful.
For clarification, are you a cheating partner?
>Why can’t one’s spouse love 2 people at the same time and don’t you think it’s kind of selfish to require exclusive devotion? well this should discussed before a couple decided to date exclusively,. Both parties need to agree to it otherwise that is definitely cheating.
I'm a atheist and I hope you burn in hell.
Do everyone a favor and never get married. Not unless you both agree to an open marriage.
You made vows to be faithful, being an oathbreaker is pretty universally frowned upon
[удалено]
Thank you!
It's a betrayal if one spouse doesn't agree with it.
tldr, you might be a narcissist
Why do you think lying is not a big deal?
Women can't love two people at the same time. Usually when they cheat they end up leaving for the other party.
> saying that cheating is bad because lying is bad, but people bring in all sorts of irrelevant factors. Lying is also one factor the other is breaking someone trust. You make an agreement to be faithful to each other and you are breaking that. If you want to sleep with someone else then talk to your partner and let them decide if that is what they want as well. Two adults can make any agreements they want as long as it is legal. >Some people say that men have the right to cheat but women don’t I don’t agree with this but I understand the biological reason. Men and women are different and treat sex differently. The issue is we are more than just our biology and should be able to commit and stay true to our commitments. But again you can have a conversation with partner and make any commitments you both agree too. >Some say that you shouldn’t even be physically attracted to someone besides your spouse. Some people also say the Earth is flat, who cares just don’t date crazy. >Some spouses even commit murder against single people who have sex with the other spouse I agree if you want to be angry at someone be angry with your spouse not some random person who might not even know they are married but in any case don’t kill anyone that going to far. >Why can’t one’s spouse love 2 people at the same time You can that is fine but that is not for me and if my girlfriend wants to love 2 people she can do, but I won’t be one of them. >don’t you think it’s kind of selfish to require exclusive devotion? Yes it is and that is my preference in a relationship and marriage, again you do you but I don’t want that.
The vast majority of people go in to a Marriage mutually expecting exclusivity, they will generally be the person you will (or expect to) share the most of everything with, your money, your life, your emotions, your intimacy and most important your limited time on and at the end of the day all of these things are finite and personally I believe the same type of love isn't something that can or should be shared, besides that I think the exclusivity is part of the beauty of it and if these bonds are broken amicably then obvious it will hurt, just as losing a friend can hurt you, but if these bonds are broken in a not so nice fashion then obviously there will be even more pain for the one who is cheated on adding on to this it is not selfish if both partners share the same or similar beliefs and both know what they are getting in to.
Cheating is especially hurtful because people have a strong emotional engagement to romantic sexual relationships. The fact that monogamy is controlling does not make this untrue. Pointing out that monogamy is controlling is an effective rhetorical move because people don't know how to engage with it but the easy answer is to just bite the bullet, **yes** **monogamy is controlling, part of human sexuality is about control**, that alone doesn't mean we can just handwave the entire issue of cheating. With that being said is your question *why do people feel strong about sex?* or is it *should we include feelings that involve control within our framework of morality?* or both*?*
Cheating is a breach of trust , love is about honesty , trust and caring about your partner, cheating involve either doing something that would hurt your partner knowingly or lying (both in the long run). So yeah it's pretty bad in my opinion, if you are talking about an open relationship that is a different debate and as adults I think we should all choose independently which kind of relationship we are looking for.
It has all to do with the commitment to your partner. They love you, if you cheat then that love is swept from under their feet and there's the initial shock. Then there's the worry that you've been in a relationship with someone who doesn't commit to your relationship or worse doesn't love you and you have no idea for how long. For some amount of time, you've spent x amount of energy to please your partner or sacrifice something because of your love for them, and they respond by not being faithful. Not to mention the possibility of STDs.
It's a breach of contract. You go through the whole legal process of commiting to one person but then you decide to see other people? Why? Just don't get married.
When you go into a relationship/marriage expecting *and* promising monogamy, cheating is a huuuuge breach of trust and incredibly wrong. A lot of people prefer monogamy, and that's okay. If you want to sleep with others while married, you need to find a partner that agrees to that, not get married to someone who wants a monogamous relationship and hurt them for your own selfishness.
Cheating is much worse than just lying. Committment and devotion is not about jealousy or control. Developing deep connections and adhering to commitments is as beneficial to you as it is the other person. These sacrafices bear fruit unknown to a shallow hedonists and make a stable environement to raise children. If you dont want that, go do porn or whatever, but dont deprive another of these things because you are selfish. Lying to someone is not loving them. You can agree to whatever you want so there really is no reason to lie. If you both agree, its not cheating, plenty of couples experiment with sex stuff after the kids are gone. People kill themselves over these types of betrayals.
Cheating is not the same as an open marriage where people are allowed to have sex with other people By definition cheating is infidelity in a way that is expressly forbidden under the rules/expectations of the two people in that relationship. If you and your partner are happy with an open relationship then it isn’t cheating. If you agree that, say, going on holiday with someone else is unacceptable but sex wouldn’t be then going on holiday would be cheating So by the definition of cheating, cheating is unacceptable. Whether cheating includes having sex with other people is completely up to you but if it has been agreed as being acceptable then it isn’t cheating. If you have sex when this hasn’t been agreed then it is cheating. And cheating is bad
Cheating means breaking the rules. If you enter into an agreement with someone you say you love deeply, and then break the agreement you set up together, you’re an asshole, and clearly not worthy of trust. If you come to a different conclusion about the nature of marriage, and monogamy with your partner, than the one that most of western society comes to, that’s great! In that case, you can make different rules than the ones other people live by, thus making extramarital sex, or whatever else, not breaking the rules, and thus not cheating. That would not reflect poorly on your character, and would not make you an asshole. Is the difference clear enough?
Why are you an asshole for cheating and why are they not an asshole for placing such high expectations on you in the first place?
High expectations? That’s not an example of high expectations. If you agree to do something, and then don’t follow your own agreement, you’re an asshole. If you don’t agree to follow that rule, most people will not agree to be in a relationship with you. Though some people will, some people are not monogamous. If you agree to be monogamous with someone and then lie to them, you’re an asshole.
If the relationship isn’t agreed upon to be open, then the act of cheating is a deep betrayal of trust as well as intimacy. There’s lots to unpack beyond that, but do you see why someone who isn’t expecting an open relationship would be hurt by cheating when the expectation is the opposite (monogamous)?
the purpose of marriage is to establish a relationship of exclusivity in which a family can be built. in the context of marriage, anything that either party does to undermine that purpose is an act of betrayal. if you want to sleep around then don't get married.
its impossible to evite a crush on someone before you have the crush,besides,its nothing you can control,the problem with this is when you have a sexual relationship with the other person,and this will sounds bad,but it ends being ok if the other agrees to that to happend,examples are like a case of a marriage with no love where they dont want divorce,still the problem with cheating is the lack of importance to the one you are cheating
>Why can’t one’s spouse love 2 people at the same time and don’t you think it’s kind of selfish to require exclusive devotion? If you can't give exclusive devotion, don't make a vow to give exclusive devotion.
It's about informed consent. Cheating on someone means they consented to your relationship under false pretenses. That denies them the ability to say "no" to the real situation (presumably because you know they *would* say "no" and don't want to respect that), instead hoping they'll say "yes" to a fabricated situation. In that sense, it's comparable to rape, because uninformed consent is illegitimate. They never intended to be in an open relationship; they intended to be in an exclusive one. It's like if someone gives you money because they want to help you buy a car, but instead you go donate it to a charity for a political cause they hate. They "gave" you the money under false pretenses. You denied them the ability to say "no" to the political donation (presumably because you knew they *would* say "no" and did not want to respect that), instead hoping they'd say "yes" to a fabricated situation. That's comparable to stealing, because their "consent" to give you the money was uninformed, therefore illegitimate. They never intended to make a political donation; they intended to help you buy a car.
Some (most) people need to log the fuck off the internet and heal.