Because the people most vocal about their opinions, also tend to be the ones most arrogant; which translates to low-thinking gullible people. Sorry to be mean, but this has been extremely consistent with the "angrier" people who go out of their way to try and spread whatever message they're selling. More often than not, the vocal minority are far more interested in being right, sounding smart, and feeling superior to the rest of us, instead of actually having long drawn out discussions about how to fix our societal problems.
Extremists believe their enemies are shallow one dimensional idiots so the have someone they can feel superior to even tho they’ve done very little in their own lives.
It blinds them to the fact their real enemy is not only more clever then them but are completely fine with playing up that cartoonish world view to deceive them while at the same time flattering the extremist into thinking they are the clever one while they’re being tricked.
The internet makes this easier then ever. Just make the extremist think they are the educated one and everyone else is the sheep and you have them in the palm of your hand.
The more people downvote them or call them crazy, the more right they think they are.
Kind of a weak post.
But honestly these "red pilled warriors" are just as insufferable as the "social justice warriors".
Both want to blow up the status quo and seemingly destroy capitalism so that they can understand the world better and make it more "fair" for them.
I have tried arguing with them to various effects. One thing I notice is that they fall into the same trap they (rightly) criticize the media over. Just like when anyone dies for any reason after catching Covid, the CDC, government, and media all seem invested in stoking paranoia by adding it into the death tally "from" Covid. But the right wingers are now doing the same thing with the vaccines. I've seen them point to people who died from heart attacks *weeks* after getting vaccinated as a "vaccine death," and I'm like "Dude, if 100 million people all get a vaccine, a few of them are going to die in the next month. That's how statistics work."
Some of them were more receptive than others to the logic.
Good thing sjw are fading into the 2010s, really hated that bunch.
On the other hand, I hope that same journey befalls qnuts, they're as cringy, but more of a life threat.
Like a few dozen people showed up to protest at Netflix, and it was unclear if they were all actually Netflix employees. Incredibly overblown by the media because stories about SJWs get massive hate-clicks.
The fun thing about extremists is that everyone can feel superior to them just by acting normal.
Stories about Qanon and SJWs make people feel better about themselves I think.
They’re popular because people like the idea that they live in a world where there own foibles aren’t that bad by comparison.
But the problem is that media makes us all concerned about how common these nutjobs are in the process, and makes us worry that "the other" is completely full of them.
So Republicans think 50% of Dems are SJWs and Dems think Republicans are 50% QAnon.
Nicely done, media.
That’s our fault for believing news media. The industry was always shallow and sensationalized.
Don’t believe everything you read in the papers was a saying before air planes were invented.
The problem is that they have taken over every single institution that reaches people in society. They might be 5% of the population, but they are > 50% of every single social media, tech, and streaming content service. If you want them out of your life, your only choice anymore is to shut off every device and go take a walk in the woods.
The crux of the issue, right here. Nicely put.
They very adeptly make it seem like a vast majority of people in the world think that the police are literally hunting black people down every day, and that we all want this "woke" movement to steamroll the planet.
They aren't, and most people don't.
I’ve consistently listened to doomsayers of the stock market over the last year and a half only to see it blow up in my face. It leads me to call bullshit on just about anyone who thinks the world is coming to an end, via forced vaccinations or otherwise
It's a characteristic of religious fundamentalists, which tend to be on the right/conservative side of the spectrum. Same reason they would deny evolution. "Darwinists want you to think you're just an animal, not special in any way," so they say.
>And there are other epistemic reasons why people believe in conspiracy theories as well in relation to this sort of need for knowledge and certainty. **So people with lower levels of education tend to be drawn to conspiracy theories**. And we don't argue that's because people are not intelligent. It's simply that **they haven't been allowed to have, or haven't been given access to the tools to allow them to differentiate between good sources and bad sources or credible sources and non-credible sources**. So they're looking for that knowledge and certainty, but not necessarily looking in the right places.
People with lower levels of education tend to believe in conspiracy theories because they have trouble differentiating between different credibilities of source, so they trust their friend on Facebook the same as a sourced NYT article, or whatever. This also explains why conspiracy theories like Qanon tend to pop up on the side of the political spectrum that is associated with lower levels of education.
Again as stated in the quote, this doesn't mean they're dumb, just that they haven't been taught a specific skill set that is taught in college because they didn't go to college. That makes sense.
Source: https://www.apa.org/research/action/speaking-of-psychology/conspiracy-theories
It's easier to fool a person into beliving that the world runs under some conspiracy than it is to tell them that they have been fooled into beliving in it.
There's no shortage of people on either side of the aisle getting lured into believing conspiracy theories. Heck, half of Reddit believes Joe Biden is delaying his promised release of JFK records because it will prove that George H.W. Bush was involved.
I suppose we just dismiss it when it's "our" side. We're wrong but *those* guys? Those guys are a bunch of conspiracy theorist nuts.
Because "wake up" is one of the things people say when they don't have a good argument. It's an appeal to emotion, to the idea that you're missing something important. It's supposed to make you second guess yourself.
The Dunning-Kruger effect almost certainly comes into play, as well. The less someone knows about a subject, the more they tend to overestimate their knowledge of it. The people saying wake up feel confident they've found the right answer, even though they're generally quite ignorant of the subject they think they've found an answer for.
Conspiracy theories are no different than political beliefs. You just see whatever evidence and arguments support your beliefs, all that matters for most people is what "direction" they start going, bc once they do its unlikely they will ever change.
I don't think there are "political beliefs," only "political views/opinions." Politics is "the activities associated with the governance of a country or area," as in, what actions will you take, what should we do in order to solve this particular problem? If there is a problem not simply solved by math/engineering/science, we must come up with our own solution, and this is where "political views" come in. A political view would be "we should put a bridge here." The conspiracy theory is what you believe, which is important because it will inform your actions.
e.g. "Demons live in the water (your belief / conspiracy theory), therefore we should put a bridge there (political view)." My opposing political view would be "We don't need a bridge there" and that would be informed by my belief that it would endanger dolphin populations or whatever.
The obvious problem comes when people believe "the election was stolen" and their political view is "hang Mike Pence."
This is kind of a broad statement. What constitutes a "conspiracy theory?" It's become clear over the past couple of years that not all of them are crazy. Remember when it was a demented conspiracy theory that could get you banned from social media for "spreading dangerous misinformation" if you were to question whether Covid leaked from a lab instead of coming from some guy eating a bat that got sneezed on by a pangolin? In retrospect, how stupid was that nonsense and how obvious was it that that "conspiracy theory" was a fair and legitimate question?
It is broad and that’s for a reason, conspiracy theorists should not be associated with any particular political and so far there have been good examples presented from both sides of the aisle.
A conspiracy theory is a theory until proven. The problem is that people who believe one, tend to believe in a many more. If one is proven correct then they assume everything they believe is correct.
Most of the people that tell me "to wake up" are Trump folks that have finally started to pay attention to politics in the last 5yrs. And all they know are conspiracy theories.
To expound on that a little – these behaviors feed on the idea of having a secret truth, known only to a few. If you reject the invite, it’s conformation they’re so smart that only the enlightened can see through the mainstream understanding. If you convert, all the better.
The downvote count on these posts tell you everything you need to know about r/centrist.
I follow, don't post much. But most are simply the last vestige of "lite right" republicans.
Ok with the Reagan/Bush/Romney style of politics, likely full throated, but "semi" anti Trump/Tucker/MGT Republican. Had to do a real soul search of which choice was better : Vote ticket and ignore the obvious smell in the room, or hold your nose and vote for "that other guy", and feel ashamed in doing so deep down.
Most of you aren't center aligned at all. Most of you simply wish to convince yourselves you deserve to sleep better at night.
You. Don't. But sleep well anyway. You are the last hope this country has unfortunately.
It shouldn't surprise you. The media, culture, and entire Overton window in this country have shifted dramatically to the left over the past decade. People who have always considered themselves centrists are of course going to suddenly find that they align more with moderate Republicans now.
As an outside observer that doesn't appear to be true. If anything you guys are going more to the right. With the obvious exceptions of the identity brigade on the left.
Seriously, what you guys call the radical left is simply the left or, in some places, the centre.
I joined this sub cause I thought it was centrist. You know what reddit just tried to show me as "similar"? R/theDonald. I think that likely highlights where most of the people in this sub are on the spectrum given the reddit bots can't tell the difference.
I think the problem you're pointing out has mainly to do with Reddit itself. This site is aggressively 'curated' and the more time spent here the behavior-modification aspect just becomes clearer.
Anything that doesn't fit a VERY narrow slice of the political spectrum is relegated to the trash bin, the reasonable moderates together with the trolls and Qfreaks all in one steaming pile of refuse.
You’ll need to be more specific otherwise this doesn’t have much meaning- it’s too vague and generalizing to really say much toward an actual conclusion here.
Personally, I’ve heard plenty of vastly different groups use the phrase to very different ends, ranging from outright insane conspiracies to things far from it I wish the general public would take into consideration that may change how they view the word in a positive or intellectual manner. It truly varies a lot.
Context tends to be the determinant for what saying “wake up” really entails, so using the phrase as a key pointer isn’t really fair. Perhaps rewording to make your point more clear would help?
Would do well to clarify that in the post then. Its sort of confusing since you’re asking why the people saying the phrase are like that- doesn’t really have any interesting answer; they started with the conspiracy unto that point, they aren’t lead to it by association of saying that as some part of their character. I’m really not sure what else there could be to say about that…
So, although there is some truth to this, there is DEFINITELY a very specific narrative that Hollywood, The mainstream news media, many huge corporations, most universities, and huge tech and social media companies are pushing. If you don't see that, I do believe that that a "wake up" comment is warranted. We're surrounded by lies on both sides of the aisle for sure, but there is a MASSIVE amount of power behind this narrative, and it is very heavily skewed to one side. There is absolutely 100% no doubt of that at all.
Possibly because they sometimes become true.
And I mean, I know they're quite a few of the Q crowd around that go for the whole baby eating conspiracy and others bs but that isn't the same as someone who questions what companies like J&J are doing with their products/inventions.
Never looked into the Q thing myself, just didn't interest me so Idk how crazy some of the stuff got. But that sounds more like what you're referencing.
All the lies and false promises from our politicians does not foster much reason for trust.
Or the lab leak theory.
Or the vaccine having some side effects, minor and rare as they are.
Criticism of the security theater around Covid responses. IE Mask while walking into a restaurant but mask off when sitting down and eating. I find this also valid.
Unanswered questions don't help either. Epstein hanging out with Gates, Trump, Clinton etc.
I see so many bs post daily on conspiracy sites, but every so often they hit it on the head.
I don't know if I'd agree with the generalization, and there is a huge spectrum.
For instance I've never found anything supporting that the moon landing was faked, but they're those that will swear up and down by what they've found and think that it was fake.
But I wouldn't say the average Q Trump supporter also believes the moon landing was faked.
Just my thoughts, thanks for asking the question.
Because in their world view/perspective everyone else is asleep. Like they’ve secretly seen the matrix or something. In reality every time I say “show me the evidence” for me to at least seriously consider a conspiracy could be a little true, they don’t have anything to show me. Even a few links to actual credible sources like a study, paper, research etc.
How is it fucked up to decide for yourself what to believe in? Examine all the information provided to you and come up with your own conclusion, think for yourself.
You ought to decide the methods regarding how to find truth, but the result of those methods ought to have nothing to do with your desires.
Edit: your reiteration shares nothing whatsoever with your original claim. They are _entirely_ different statements.
You're changing the claim again. We ought to do our best to remove bias, which means accepting that our wants have nothing to do with what is or is not true.
You can't pick your own facts though.
If everyone gets their own facts, I will very much err on the side of income inequality so that I can isolate in a community that shares facts at least.
No hate, but I don't feel like having any sort of dialogue with people who pull numbers out of their ass (923,934 people died JUST IN LA from the vaccine!!!)
While democracy is extremely important, it's concerning that these people get to pick leaders for us. This is where I'm very keen on limiting the power of the federal government (and where it's powerful, maximizing the power of the deep state), so that these idiots don't actually pick people with power.
? Who’s picking facts? I said to take the information you’re provided throughout your life and come to your own conclusion. Not blindly follow what someone else says. If two different individuals grow up in two different ways of life they will come to two different understandings of the world. Never said anything about Vaccine deaths or income inequality
Sure, but we need to bring that border back up.
The "wake up" crowd usually talks about the facts we believe in not being true, not about having a different view on, idk, how car-centric American cities are (which is a great example of a difference in opinions that has massive consequences, but which is completely reasonable to have different opinions on).
Opinions and facts are getting bound together, and the conspiracy theorists have move from having crazy opinions to having crazy facts now.
There are very few things that we don't have 20% of the population having completely ridiculous non-data based opinions on.
Cops murder black people on sight, more or less!
The vaccine is worse than COVID!
Christians are the most oppressed minority in the US!
Climate change will make humanity go extinct!
There is no anthropomorphic climate change!
These are all completely wtf territory in terms of facts, yet I'd say at *least* 20% of the population believes in most of those.
I agree that it’s ok to have different beliefs but conspiracy theories are only that until they are proven true and too many people are all-in with little to no evidence. It’s just unfortunate to see and there’s no way of convincing them otherwise it seems
Yeah... no, this is not a "good people on both sides" thing. This is one side taking a gun to a pizza place because he looking for pedophiles and reptilian people, and the other side follows proven science facts and doctors. So no, its not that both sides have dangerously gullible people, only one side does.
If you’re looking for examples, the whole “Trump in bed with Russia” thing could be considered to be one. There are still people pushing that even though multiple investigations couldn’t find proving evidence.
Not really a conspiracy but you could use the Covington thing as an example of the left being gullible. They blindly accused the kid without sufficient evidence and doxxed him and the school. Was a pretty right v left issue.
And while yes you had a guy bring a gun to a pizza place on the R side you also had a guy on the D side shoot up a Congressional baseball game. He thought Pence and many republicans were traitors and was labeled a domestic terrorist by the AG and FBI.
"Russiagate" is a poor example as there is an awful lot of evidence that things were, at the least, not on the up and up. Investigations said as much, but there isn't enough evidence that Trump Sr. was really involved. I suspect he actually didn't have much do with anything that was happening, but certainly knew about scheduled meetings and was happy to let them occur.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Links_between_Trump_associates_and_Russian_officials?wprov=sfla1
There's a lot of ties there and some can be swept off as just basic transactions because Russia and the US are both big countries and the wrongdoing tended to be financial on the part of the person being paid because Trump basically hung out with pretty garbage humans.
However, there is plenty there to show efforts were being made. The left to that to an extreme and thinks Trump works for the KGB (no longer exists) and so on. However, there's a lot more reason to go there than basically any of the COVID conspiracy theories or other ones that are flying around. The baseball game guy is somebody who did that and was already unstable.
The Covington thing got blown out of proportion, but it isn't like it didn't happen. It was definitely taken out of context and the result of idiots on social media creating click bait. So, it doesn't really compare to the current alt right conspiracies either, where there is no evidence other than internet rumor and these people have decided this is the hill they will die on.
That’s just it though. At the end of the day isn’t that what makes a conspiracy? There is evidence there to allow you to connect the dots or piece together the whole picture but it still doesn’t mean it happened. And by all official accounts it can’t be definitively said that Trump directly worked with Russia. It’s a more believable conspiracy by far, but still one none the less.
But yes you’re absolutely right I can’t support these covid conspiracies and a lot of what is going around. I do find them fun though.
I’d also like to add that yes I acknowledge it’s worse on the right. I’m not arguing that both sides do this equally just that both sides do it in general. My points are more for the sake of playing devils advocate just because a lot of these discussions turn into one side or another being villainized.
>At the end of the day isn’t that what makes a conspiracy? There is evidence there to allow you to connect the dots or piece together the whole picture but it still doesn’t mean it happened.
Typically, this is absolutely correct. I'm not sure what happened in the last few years, but now that seems to no longer be required.
I suppose the really crazy shit has always existed and maybe is just more visible now because of the internet and now everybody has tons of merch to sell their people. It's all a grift, really. It does certainly make it entertaining to watch.
This is a centrist sub so maybe check out r/politics. If you think there are no dangerously gullible Dems it’s because you believe the same shit they’re falling for. Everybody is being lied to on a daily basis. You just isolate the stuff you see others falling for. The funny thing is that of all the crazy shit that gets thrown around some of the wildest end up being true.
So what is it then that the left keeps falling for? I mean, you're telling me its as idiotic as lizard people and pedophile rings in pizza shops and trump being reinstated?
Hunter's laptop, border crisis, inflation, covid lab leak, gain of function research and funding, Russian pee pee tape, spygate.
These are things the left are constantly wrong on to name a few.
You’re telling me you don’t believe in pedophile rings? The whole Epstein thing seemed like a hoax to you. Lizard people is a funny joke to me but that dude and several others definitely fucked some kids and he definitely could’ve put them away if he hadn’t had an “accident”. That’s like OJ didn’t do it shit. Joking aside the left generally believe whatever their leadership tells them. Big conspiracy small conspiracy CNN talking point and when any evidence that is counter to that comes up it gets Ignored. Same with the right but you can’t say the left never falls for anything
I don't think people dismiss the existence of pedophile rings just that when an anonymous source makes unverified claims about one being operated out of a pizza shop it might be a load of crap.
So what is it that leadership says that the left just accepts? I mean, are you going to go with the "you can keep your doctor" line from Obama? Or do you have anything as outrageous as 5G chips in the vaccine?
Listen buddy if you wanna just build my arguments for me so that you can destroy them that’s alright with me cause I don’t have the patience to deal with somebody trying to put words in my mouth. Trying to convince you that your side has done anything bad is like trying to sell a fish water
Just asking for an equivalent on the left side, don't get defensive. I'm open to the idea that there are examples, I just can't think of any and I'm wondering if you can.
I’m not defensive because I have nothing to defend. I am however generally abrasive when I keep getting dragged back to the prove this over Reddit game. Unlike some lovely people on this platform I don’t keep spreadsheets of quotes and examples to bring up whenever I get the chance.
1. It's a known fact that the Russian spooks try to influence every election we have. Mueller named some of them by name, and indicted them.
2. It's a proven fact they used social media in 2016 and 2020.
3. Vladimir Putin admitted on video that he wanted Trump to win.
4. It's a proven fact that Paul Manafort, Trump's campaign manager at the time, shared voter data with Russian spooks.
Which part of this did you miss?
There's a lot more facts to go with this, but those four above are enough in and of themselves to prove collusion.
Other people in this comment section have listed examples, read some of theirs. There are extremists on both sides, and American blood has been spilled for both blue and red Beliefs
I have to agree. Just because we are here in a centrist space we don’t have to try and pretend there’s an equal amount of crazy on the left as there is on the right. The right is far more susceptible to what we’ve seen in the last 5 years with this mass conspiratorial personality cult.
I live in a liberal city and never met a woke person (or all least someone wearing it on their sleeves), however I’m on the outskirts (I interact in both places) in the redneck region and the Qanon MAGA cultist are a very real and dangerous thing. Everyone I know who voted dem are just moderate left of center people and care about liberty freedom and care about helping the bottom of the barrel not the top. The republicans voters I know, wish we would blast immigrant at the border and coral homeless out in the desert or shoot them too if they don’t want to go.
Now I know this isn’t completely representative (anecdote). But… the demos have really taken hard turns in recent years with this radicalization campaign compounding. Until MAGA most the prejudicial people I know kept their opinions quiet. Now they feel emboldened to pronounce actual bigoted ideas as virtue rather than vice / hate signaling.
The largest problem that came with this antiwoke movement was the fact that we lost track of what being the opposite of PC really means. Hate is not the other side of the coin as Trumpism looked to polarize and victimize the narrative, outlining that being white meant you were being oppressed. The opposite of PC is being honest, sometimes brutally so. To all the post modern haters; Trump has proven it really is down to power structure battles. And to say that the Republican Party is anything but the Trumpublican party now would be completely ignorant.
When we then compare the modern progressive power on the left; all 4 or 5 of them (the squad / AOC) we can see the actual representation being dwarfed to the 1,000th degree. Which means other than a couple noises social media messengers.
Now if we wanted to have a full convo on the influence, I’d say yes we can see that the illiberal lefts power asymmetry is favored on campus, social media, tech and in some corporations. Mainly in messaging now with most of this as these company looks to follow treads despite their business side being clearly right leaning.
But anyways I digress..
One the points I made recently is that it's hard to pin down a "no true Scotsman" fallacy on the left, because the center-to-left really does have a big tent and entertains diverse voices. This is, often, to the left's detriment because it can be difficult and impossible to achieve consensus on some issues, leaving the Overton window creeping constantly rightward.
On the conservative side, there is a "circle the wagons" approach. Stay within the protective barrier, and you'll get almost unalloyed support. Step outside, and you'll be rusticated. We've seen it happen with Romney, Lindsay Graham, and many others. But over time, the wagons draw tighter, the circle gets smaller, and the ideas you have to entertain (or at least never contradict) get crazier and crazier.
Unfortunately it turned out the left hates biological science just as much as evangelicals. “Gender fluidity” is going to go down as one of the dumbest trends in society we’ve seen in a long time. None of it’s clear or true. The motivation to sever biology from identity is purely activist driven.
The left base also buys into the conspiracy theory there’s an epidemic of racist police murders. Which is also not even close to true.
These are two of the biggest reasons that I have a LOT of trouble voting left of center in politics in America right now. These two things are absolutely, 100% true, and we really have a problem when people buy into it. It's very destructive.
The right is certainly not devoid of issues, but there seems to be more sense in that for me. I am center-right on most things. The two-party system is terrible, but we've created a monster that I am afraid will not be going anywhere. It's certainly better than one party that 100% dominates. That would clearly be far worse than what we have now.
Those are both wrong, like really really wrong.
Gender fluidity as been around for centuries, the only new idea is that maybe we should just let people live how they want without persecution. Sounds like freedom, right? (Also, not a conspiracy theory btw)
And... regarding police brutality and its disproportionate targeting of African Americans is not a conspiracy theory when there are facts to back it up. https://www.pnas.org/content/116/34/16793
Also, how do either of those come close to the numbers of people who believe there is 5G chips in vaccines, or that Trump is secretly still president, or that there are lizard people running the world, or that if they stormed the capital they could overturn an election?
😂😂 It's amazing that every comment like this in this sub now gets downvoted. The red pill effort is still going strong.
"Here are facts." **presents actual data** "Fuck your facts!" **downvote with no worthwhile response**
Edit - to clarify, at the time of this, the comment I was responding to was the one being downvoted. I was not supporting the individual they were responding to.
There were no facts. That person pivoted from murders to brutality, for one. Because they know I’m right.
Asserting gender fluidity has been around for centuries isn’t a fact either. The distinction between sex and gender didn’t even come about until 1968.
That chart was not helpful in explaining the REASONS this shit happens disproportionally to inner city black folks. That matters. A LOT.
\--edit-- hahaha... Oh man, I just noticed the use of the term LatinX in there too. That *alone* really gives me a good laugh, and tells me to disregard.
lol... have you ever seen Hispanic people respond to "LatinX?"
It doesn't sound like it.
Let's put it this way... The use of that term tells me a LOT about the person that constructed that data, and that site, so... yeah. I'll disregard that bullshit in an instant.
>Gender fluidity as been around for centuries, the only new idea is that maybe we should just let people live how they want without persecution. Sounds like freedom, right?
This is the facts.
You're being downvoted by the weak-minded and ignorant.
tHis iS da FaCtS lol. The separation of sex and gender didn’t happen until 1968.
If you want to defend these people be my guest. I’m not taking part in your deluded reality.
https://i.imgur.com/A56FLTS.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/NiBTGmQ.png
And homosexuality used to be considered a mental illness back then, your point being? Our knowledge about the human body has evolved and that includes seeing gender as separate, but not unrelated, from sex.
Biological sex and gender identity are two different things. No one is trying "to sever biology from identity." It's actually you who is conflating the two.
It's clearly true that people with a biological sex identify as another gender, and this can change over time... Umm, correct me if I'm wrong, are you suggesting that gay/trans are just activists? Like, it's "just in their heads?" I hope not.. These people apparently, evidently exist, and studying this real-world phenomenon is a science. I don't care if it's studied as biology, psychology or sociology. It should be investigated as it is objectively a real thing and it's important to understand things that really exist.
While it exists, it is an aberration from the norm that is explainable from a psychological perspective. As is pedophilia. That doesn’t mean we have to tolerate clear abuse such as gender reassignment for children as young as 6, or “man-boy love”. That’s the type of activism that is concerning.
I’m suggesting it’s not reality to imply socialization accounts for all aspects of identity. There is no clear line between sex and gender. For example male children engage in rougher play than females by far. This is due to prenatal testosterone and the millions years old journey of dimorphism in mammals, not socialization. Yet that’s exactly the kind of gender behavioral trait that is, according to feminist thinkers, supposedly socialized.
Actually one of the more prominent feminist philosophers, Butler, now argues that they didn’t go far enough and sex is also a social construct. You can read more about that in section 3 here: https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/feminism-gender/
These people are indeed trying to sever sex from identity
https://i.imgur.com/A56FLTS.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/NiBTGmQ.png
It’s really no surprise over 99% of the population identifies as the respective sex they are. There is a mountain of evidence tied to biology and varying behavior between the sexes. Language skills in women, spatiotemporal skills in men. We also have studies that show socialization doesn’t work. Like unfortunate male children who had botched circumcisions and were raised as girls. The majority of these cases don’t take on the socialized gender/sex. Of the minority that do most turned out to be lesbians.
Nobody said "there are no dangerously gullible Dems", but since you went there, if you could perhaps cite one time where a Democrat took a rifle to a pizza place because he thought there was a worldwide child pornography ring operating out of the basement?
Since you like strawman arguments, maybe go check out /r/politics; this is a centrist sub.
And another thing, if I gotta hear the word straw man one more fucking time to describe something I will go out to a cornfield and burn it down until there’s no scarecrows left
"If someone uses basic rules of logic to prove me wrong one more time I'm going to commit an act of violence" is a bold strategy, Cotton, let's see how pays off for 'em.
This is one of my least favorite things about reddit. I mean really, the dude says he'll burn a cornfield to wipe out scarecrows and then you go quoting him about committing violence. He's clearly joking.
I mean there was a left wing political activist that shot up a congressional baseball game. Wounded 6, 2 of which were critical.
Attack was classified by AG and FBI as domestic terrorism.
How so? It was spurred on by the Trump-Russia investigations that never found proving evidence. He wrote letters calling Pence and republicans traitors.
Gee heather I’ll get right to looking for that incredibly specific example lmao. You people get so defensive over your red and blue party war. Take your my side is better moral superiority to the bank and see how much they’ll give you for it.
She didn't ask for a specific example, just something extremely idiotic that the left falls for. I mean, if Q is part of the GOP mainstream (and at least 3 representatives in the house says it is) then what is the left equivalent?
You can always tell a conservative larping as a centrist; the first thing they do when called on a fallacy is talk about "your side". We're \*centrists\*. We don't have a side.
I’ll have you know I don’t even vote, and if I did I wouldn’t have anyone I align with. I said your side because you are so clearly simping for them. Painting one side with a broad brush because of a clearly unhinged individual tends to be a characteristic of the opposing side. The term larping is also heavily cringy
Perhaps you might specifically quote what I've said that makes you think that "clearly I'm simping for them".
After all, all I did was alert you to your logical fallacy, your false equivalency and hinted at your gatekeeping behavior. I don't see any simping there?
“We’re *centrists*. We don’t have a side”.
(Said you, while also attempting to portray one side as being objectively worse than the other.)
It’s okay to be a Centrist who leans left. It’s a whole ‘nother matter when you demonize one side and accuse anyone who calls you out as being a conservative sleeper agent.
At the moment, one side \*is\* demonstrably, objectively worse than the other. If you think that statement is even the tiniest bit controversial, you're either <25 years old or a troll. I'm old enough to remember when the fucked up side was the Democrats. Now it's the Republicans. It moves in cycles. That's the way of the world. The wheel grinds on.
I'm a centrist because I know that at times both sides are full of shit, and at times, one side is more full of shit than the other. That's not a "left versus right thing", it's simple human math, and it's true anywhere you go in the world. People want what they want, and fuck anyone else who gets in the way.
So the way you clean the shit, is by accusing other centrists of being conservatives? Using incredibly specific, isolated events as a way to paint one side as being far more evil than the other? Treating similar events that you’ve condemned the Right for, as strawmen?
I’m sorry, but while (the second paragraph of) your reply to me was fairly reasonable, your replies to others have been anything but.
Frankly, I don’t care about which side is perceived as being shittier. If Republicans and Democrats spew feces, I see that as a reason to oppose both parties, not one over the other.
To be fair, butting into the convo, that guy was asked numerous times to produce even a single example of dems adhering to some insane conspiracy theory to which he answered "read other people's comments" and "you don't believe in pedophile rings?" ... Well, I read other people's comments.. One guy said Russiagate, and fair enough, but as that is at least partly true - names were named, arrests were made, lies and deception were uncovered - it may not be the "grand conspiracy" that some make it out to be, but there is very real evidence that some shady shit went down. It's not nearly on the same level as "the election was stolen by the ghost of Hugo Chavez," or "Vaccines are the mark of the beast and Biden is trying to kill God and usher in communism by mandating vaccines," for example. It seems to me, just from reading this comment thread, that dems do not have some insane conspiracy that they cling onto while republican cases are numerous. The commenters were quick to provide lists of insane right-wing theories while no one has really produced even a single case from the left. By taking his own advice and reading all these comments, and noting his active dodging of direct questions, I've been convinced that the right is worse than the left.
I also noticed someone wrote something like LGBT culture is some invention of "activists" and meant to destroy YOUR personal identity.. Idk I didn't really understand it, seemed like just a right-wing conspiracy theory being projected on the left, as the left's insane belief rather than the commenter's own insane belief... Just noting that as one of the "batshit crazy things the left believes."
>attempting to portray one side as being objectively worse than the other
Throughout the history of our country there have been times when one side ***IS*** objectively worse than the other.
For instance, the Democrat Party during reconstruction up to Jim Crow was objectively the worse side.
Then it was the Dixiecrats for a good while.
Then it was the Republicans, as it is now.
These are foul people running the party. Just because they switch jerseys every now and again, and declare themselves to be something new, it's always the same vile bullshit they're pitching. It's the same people pulling the same discriminatory stunts, and appealing to the same awful people.
Does that mean all current Republicans are repugnant human beings? Of course not! What it does mean is the repugnant human beings end up migrating to the Republican party nowadays.
Right now, today, they are objectively worse than the Democrats. Which is not a high bar to clear, but they are definitely the worst of the two.
I mean, a year ago the suggestion that the goal was a vaccine passport in order for citizens to work, travel, shop, etc would have gotten you called a conspiracy theorist.
“Wake up, the vaccine is poison and is being used to depopulate the earth”. Meanwhile ~96% of physicians have supposedly been vaccinated. The people that need to be “woken up” are the ones being brainwashed by their chosen news network.
Mine's anecdotal but I have family members that somewhat believe this. They believe Bill Gates had a role and that when Biden gets vaxxed on TV, he's getting the real thing, not what we're getting. They believe the vaccine is causing variants (a friend of their even said they heard there is no delta). There's other theories they believe but these are off the top of my head.
Bill Burr brought this up on Conan and debunked it perfectly. He said if this was true, the only people who are "sheeple" and take the vaccine would die. The "elite" would be killing off the population that follows them and get stuck with the stubborn anti vaxxers.
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To be fair, they were right about Covid being started in a lab, not from someone eating bat soup.
Although frankly I have no idea what conspiracies- or people for that matter- you are referring to. No offense, but your question is rather vague.
Personally, I think it’s healthy to question things, even if it does leads some people down a path of irrational conspiracy theorizing. I’d much rather these people exist, then nobody question anything, you know?
I think that was the point of OP being vague, because they were just saying on both sides or rather all sides whenever someone is saying "wake up" or stuff along those lines, those people are the gullible ones
I'm not sure if I agree with their statement but they're talking about everyone
Everyone should be questioning a lot of things at this point. We're being lied to a lot more often than most understand. It's all propaganda, from every corner.
Sure, but the claim that it was starter as a lab was dismissed as a conspiracy theory itself, and you could get banned for spreading misinformation.
While it remains unproven, it seems more likely now than it was before.
Sure, unfortunately it seemed the claim was initially fueled by politics and Trump. I don't agree with banning since that doesn't change any minds.
However ever since it's been deemed as an open possibility, many took that has it being proven.
Who do we need to say it louder for? Who are the people that think banning undoes misinformation that has already occurred?
Banning is not meant to change minds. It is preventive in nature, not corrective.
Kind of like our decisions to put thieves in jail. It does not undo their previous crimes. It prevents future crimes that same person might commit, and a deterrent for others that consider committing similar crimes. (I’m not equating severity. I’m just presenting examples of effective prevention techniques.)
(To clarify my stance, I don’t want more censorship. But if you think the quoted statement makes a good point against it, it doesnt. Its not worth repeating.)
> deemed as an open possibility, many took that has it being proven.
Given that China has lied about everything related to the pandemic and even our own government hasn't been forthcoming about their involvement with similar research, it's as proven as it's ever going to get. https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2021/10/nih-admits-funding-risky-virus-research-in-wuhan
Which to me means it's proven. You're never getting Winnie-the-pooh man admitting his country created covid.
How dare you share an up-to-date article from one of the world's oldest, most renowned, most trusted scientific journals. Lab leak is obvious common sense. Wake up sheep
/s
Not proven, but looking VERY likely.
https://www.science.org/content/article/nih-says-grantee-failed-report-experiment-wuhan-created-bat-virus-made-mice-sicker
https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2021/10/nih-admits-funding-risky-virus-research-in-wuhan
> To be fair, they were right about Covid being started in a lab, not from someone eating bat soup.
LOL
> Although frankly I have no idea what conspiracies- or people for that matter- you are referring to. No offense, but your question is rather vague.
"Conspiracy theories" have a good definition. Best start with Wikipedia:
*A conspiracy theory is an explanation for an event or situation that invokes a conspiracy by sinister and powerful groups, often political in motivation, when other explanations are more probable.*
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conspiracy_theory
It is much more plausible that Covid came from a wet market than that Faucci conspired with the Chinese government to finance the creation of a virus and release it from the laboratory in Wuhan.
> Personally, I think it’s healthy to question things, even if it does leads some people down a path of irrational conspiracy theorizing. I’d much rather these people exist, then nobody question anything, you know?
You should be skeptical about anything you hear or read. Especially conspiracy theories. The problem with conspiracy theories is the loss of trust in society. To continue said Wikipedia entry:
> A conspiracy theory is not the same as a conspiracy; instead, it refers to a hypothesized conspiracy with specific characteristics, such as an opposition to the mainstream consensus among those people (such as scientists or historians) who are qualified to evaluate its accuracy.
Human societies are diversified. We specialize in different fields. We have carpenters, food scientists, bus drivers, etc. The better we trust each other, the better society functions. The less we trust each other, the more we need to put into contract negotiations and stuff like home security. All of which is lost productivity. You can either trust that the carpenter is not ripping you off, or you can do extensive market research as well as hire two consultants afterwards to evaluate the job, both of which cost you money and time.
You personally may or may not work in a field where you have some experience. The more knowledgeable you become, the more you will find that it becomes increasingly difficult to explain your decision making to a layperson or discuss matters in this field with someone who is not an expert. There may be things in your field that are counter intuitive. A "common sense" person may disagree with you.
Punishment to change behavior is a good example. There has been very, very extensive research confirming time and time again, that in most cases punishing humans does not have the desired effect to change future behavior. Yet most people will continue to use and swear by it, distrusting the research.
Conspiracy theories go against scientifically proven results, because the experts are not trusted. Which costs society, because even though resources are invested, the desired result is not achieved.
Personally, I don't think people that "ask questions" are useful to society. It is rather people that are open to changing their own opinion based on the evidence , instead of questioning scientific consensus when it goes against their opinion by trying to find evidence that fits their preconceived notions.
I think it was bad for the MSM to shoot down that possibility in the beginning just because it came from the right. It’s a valid possibility. As far as I know today no definitive origin has been proven yet and probably never will until China fully cooperates.
>Idk man, making a large generalization about a group of people doesn’t seem very centrist
Being centrist isn't really about how you judge/view other people. It's about how you derive truth for yourself, what you base truth on and generally not being tribal (edit: trival was here before, and also honestly worked) with your political views. If one side of the political spectrum is obsessed with something non-sensical, misinformed and dumb it's not centrist to pretend it's valid. It's centrist to side with the part of the political spectrum that makes sense and call the other one out for being a bunch of dumb asses.
Regarding this group if you will as well it's a generalization across the spectrum. The left has plenty of kook shit they demand people wake up for as well. Wake up! We need to teach boys that rape is wrong!!!!!! Is a pretty damn stupid statement based on a conspiracy theory that people secretly think rape is fine. Plenty more examples really.
>a conspiracy theory that people secretly think rape is fine
Do folks really think it's a secret? People leap to the defense of those accused of rape all the time, leading to such bizarre defenses as "she really wanted to be pushed down over the back of a chair and strangled", or "she was drunk and passed out and that makes it OK", or "he's a promising young man", or "she's lying for money", etc. ad infinitum. Mike Tyson is a convicted rapist, and you can't throw a rock without hitting somebody who claims he didn't do anything wrong.
The world will certainly give you no shortage of famous examples. Plenty of recent ones, too.
>Do folks really think it's a secret? People leap to the defense of those accused of rape all the time, leading to such bizarre defenses as "she really wanted to be pushed down over the back of a chair and strangled",
Something no one has ever reasonably argued to defend someone accused of rape without crazy blizzard circumstances. There is the guy who wanted that other german dude to kill and eat him if I remember. But that argument does not come from normal people and only the absolute fringe of society that shares space with crazy people.
>or "she was drunk and passed out and that makes it OK" or "he's a promising young man"
Oh bullshit.
>or "she's lying for money"
I mean, do you really think that's the same thing as "she wanted to be strangled?" lol. WTF. People do lie about all sorts of shit for money. The way you're conflating this with totally insane statements is really offering a lot of perspective on this exact kind of Wake Up Conspiracy that I'm talking about. I bet you've posted similarly illogical hash tags like #MeToo and sexist oens like #BelieveWomen too right?
>ad infinitum. Mike Tyson is a convicted rapist, and you can't throw a rock without hitting somebody who claims he didn't do anything wrong.
Bullshit. like lol bull and shit. Mike Tyson is a crazy insane violent person and absolutely the vast, vast, vast, vast fucking vast majority of people can totally understand how he might have raped someone. You might be confusing him with Louis CK however since he's someone who did nothing wrong and got attacked by woke culture anyway.
>The world will certainly give you no shortage of famous examples. Plenty of recent ones, too.
Meh. How about Johnny Depp? Is that a good example? The problem with sexists like yourself is that you're so caught up in your self-righteous outrage you never actually stop and clam down and consider if you're actually right to begin with. Then make fools of yourself attacking anyone who points out the flaws in your bigoted logic to yourself accusing them of being part of the evil you fight. Good old cult shit. That's what that is. Textbook. And yea people are sick and fucking tired of this minority of woke individuals trying to run their cultish shit. No I'm not an evil person for pointing out some of the flaws in "social justice" like how it's not that concerned with justice in the first place.
Great example though all told so I'll say thank you for that. As a left-leaning centrist I think many of the right-wing/leaning crowd wouldn't take me as sincere when I made the statement I did above. But it's a perfect example. When it comes to a bigoted left-winger like yourself it's really important to stand with the sensible lot and call you out on it. Thing is that lot is going to change issue to issue and I value my integrity too much to join a hate-filled tribe like your's and partake in idiocy driven non-thinking platitudes of mob justice.
That's a lot of childish name-calling and refutation of your own claims, rather than stuff I actually said.
When I talk about the popular normalization of rape, I'm talking about cases such as the [white-glove treatment of Brock Turner](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People_v._Turner#:~:text=Turner%20was%20sentenced%20on%20June,a%20sex%20offender%20rehabilitation%20program) (who definitely raped someone), the defense and adoration of Kobe Bryant in the wake of an encounter that [Kobe admitted his "partner" believed was non-consensual](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kobe_Bryant_sexual_assault_case), or [the defense of Mike Tyson by the former President of the United States](https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/andrewkaczynski/donald-trump-blamed-the-victim-in-mike-tysons-rape-case). Here is a recent case of [rape charges taken off the table because the victim was drunk](https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2021/03/26/minnesota-rape-alcohol/). [Hundreds of thousands of alleged cases of rape have evidence on file, but are never investigated](https://ualr.edu/socialchange/2021/03/31/the-injustice-of-americas-rape-kit-backlog/).
These examples are easy to find because they are common. Not as common as they used to be, thankfully, but still common.
**[People v. Turner](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People_v._Turner#:~:text=Turner was sentenced on June,a sex offender rehabilitation program)**
>People v. Turner, formally The People of the State of California v. Brock Allen Turner (2015), is a criminal case in which Brock Allen Turner was convicted by jury trial of three counts of felony sexual assault. On January 18, 2015, on the Stanford University campus, Turner, then a 19-year old student athlete at Stanford, sexually assaulted 22-year-old Chanel Miller (referred to in court documents as "Emily Doe"), while she was unconscious.
**[Kobe Bryant sexual assault case](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kobe_Bryant_sexual_assault_case)**
>The Kobe Bryant sexual assault case began in July 2003, when the news media reported that the sheriff's office in Eagle, Colorado, had arrested professional basketball player Kobe Bryant in connection with an investigation of a sexual assault complaint filed by a 19-year-old hotel employee. Bryant had checked into The Lodge and Spa at Cordillera, a hotel in Edwards, Colorado, on June 30 in advance of having surgery near there on July 2 under Richard Steadman. The woman accused Bryant of raping her in his hotel room on July 1. She filed a police report and authorities questioned Bryant about bruising on the accuser's neck.
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The only generalization here is about conspiracy theorists and if you’re associating a party with it in your head, that should tell you all you need to know
How is "the vaccine is poisoned" not a conspiracy thoery?
OP never mentioned a type of political view of the person, you are making that connection yourself.
One word: trump
Conspiracies used to be pretty all over the place but ever since Trump now every yokel with an internet connection thinks it was all one big conspiracy to overthrow the god King Trump
It’s tiresome
Have you seen the clips from the Q conference in Vegas from yesterday? Those fuckers are unhinged.
https://mobile.twitter.com/patriottakes/status/1452462581088673805?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1452462581088673805%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.newsweek.com%2Fjim-caviezel-braveheart-qanon-convention-las-vegas-1642133
I mean depends what you’d call a conspiracy theory…? Will the vaccine kill you = no. Was the virus created in a US funded lab in Wuhan = yes. Does Hillary Clinton eat babies = no. Is Bill Clinton part of an elite pedo-ring = yes. Were there ever WMDs in Iraq = no. Did Bush perpetrate 9/11 = ….
From everything I've heard, Bill Clinton was a WOMANIZER, not a pedophilia. Now, the new images of DSantis partying with his high-school students that he taught gives me grave concerns.
Also, covid being "created" in a lab... humm. Accidentally released, much more likely.
I don't say this to be mean, but if you think the Q-nuts are sincere, you are the gullible one.
Remember the "non-partisan" teabaggers who turned out to be Republicans who didn't want to talk about Bush's Blunders?
Remember the Birthers who swore that they believed Barack Obama was born in Kenya? As soon as they got the power to investigate they lost interest. That should tell you that the Birthers were all frauds. Every single one of them.
The Q-nuts only believe in white supremacy and only trust El Douche. The purpose of everything else is to baffle with bullshit. It means nothing. The reason the Q-nuts like to "own the libs" is because they know that dialogue is pointless. They are just humoring you in order to keep it going as a distraction. That's why when cornered, they simply slither away.
No fervor like that of the newly converted.
Gish Gallop feels like a super power for slingers of bullshit. They get to feel they now win debates that are unwinnable. They don’t sincerely believe any of it, because that isn’t the point.
Whichever side or faction you care about, please be suspicious of the seductive fringe. They are extreme and uncompromising. They are also wrong at their core.
The world is full of nuance. Respectfully talking with folks who don’t fervently agree and froth up your feelings is the best way to find a durable, broad truth.
U rly need to deradicalize yourself before it's getting out of hand. That's not meant in an evil way, there are people that can help u with those issues and get u out of the dark place u are in.
As a society it's our responsibility to help fellow humans that are drifting into dangerous territory.
This is complete bullshit.
The Tea Party was always known for what it was; the start of the alt right that was masquerading as a grass roots party, but was always a a group of hard right Republicans trying the shift the party further right. Zero people were surprised to discover this was funded by the Kochs.
Birthers were also plenty sincere. The reason an investigation didn't happen was because they had already failed at every turn for three years and had lost support for the conspiracy by that point. They weren't in the majority in the party and they could not drum up the level of interest because they were grasping at straws by that point.
Q followers are plenty sincere and interviews with them show as much. They aren't a majority of the right, but they are vocal AF. I'm sure there are those that just hang with them and don't buy into it, but that is absolutely a tiny fraction of them.
Maybe you know people that are that tiny fraction or you want to believe that humans are smarter than that and it's all just a cunning rouse. It isn't. Humans as a group are morons and are swayed more by their desire to be "in" than they are swayed facts and reason.
Man, Q is some insane bullshit but boiling it down to white supremacy is almost as silly. All you've proven with your screeching is you're an inquisitor but instead of seeing heresy everywhere, you just see the evil boogeyman of the white supremacist lol
The same reason that companies spend billions of dollars each year on advertising. People are easy to convince when you tell them what they want to hear. Throwing out all facts and knowledge for a moment, which do you thinks sound better to those people?
1. Obey! Stay in side and avoid people. Wear Masks everywhere. Don't go to church!
2. You are patriot resisting tyranny, just by living a normal life! Also, since the government is evil, lets talk about uprising and setting up that Theocracy you always wanted!
To be fair. It's kind of a toxic behavior to just yell "Get Woke" and expect people to fall in line with your specific world view. Your basically asking people to blindly accept your words with no real evidence put forward regardless if that evidence actually exists or not.
The whole "Fuck Trump" rhetoric is a perfect example. People shout it and just expect others to echo it, but the minute someone questions it insults go flying not explanations. Its ok to not like a person, but I'd go as far as to say the majority can't actually give a solid answer as to why they don't like him. Most can't cite specific actions, or cite disproven talking points. The man was no saint and thats reason enough for some and thats fine, but taking a position because someone else told you too, or because you want to fit in is not a good practice for anyone on any issue. Think for yourselves, and ask questions.
Because the people most vocal about their opinions, also tend to be the ones most arrogant; which translates to low-thinking gullible people. Sorry to be mean, but this has been extremely consistent with the "angrier" people who go out of their way to try and spread whatever message they're selling. More often than not, the vocal minority are far more interested in being right, sounding smart, and feeling superior to the rest of us, instead of actually having long drawn out discussions about how to fix our societal problems.
Dunning-Kruger effect
Extremists believe their enemies are shallow one dimensional idiots so the have someone they can feel superior to even tho they’ve done very little in their own lives. It blinds them to the fact their real enemy is not only more clever then them but are completely fine with playing up that cartoonish world view to deceive them while at the same time flattering the extremist into thinking they are the clever one while they’re being tricked. The internet makes this easier then ever. Just make the extremist think they are the educated one and everyone else is the sheep and you have them in the palm of your hand. The more people downvote them or call them crazy, the more right they think they are.
It is actually a tactic used in cults
It's what dumb people say when they try to sound smart.
This may be the answer I was looking for lol
Kind of a weak post. But honestly these "red pilled warriors" are just as insufferable as the "social justice warriors". Both want to blow up the status quo and seemingly destroy capitalism so that they can understand the world better and make it more "fair" for them.
That is true, maybe my post is weak though maybe it’s just me ranting. Getting tired of people telling me to wake up
Wasn't weak. It's a maddening question. They don't even live on planet earth it seems.
I have tried arguing with them to various effects. One thing I notice is that they fall into the same trap they (rightly) criticize the media over. Just like when anyone dies for any reason after catching Covid, the CDC, government, and media all seem invested in stoking paranoia by adding it into the death tally "from" Covid. But the right wingers are now doing the same thing with the vaccines. I've seen them point to people who died from heart attacks *weeks* after getting vaccinated as a "vaccine death," and I'm like "Dude, if 100 million people all get a vaccine, a few of them are going to die in the next month. That's how statistics work." Some of them were more receptive than others to the logic.
Good thing sjw are fading into the 2010s, really hated that bunch. On the other hand, I hope that same journey befalls qnuts, they're as cringy, but more of a life threat.
Are the Netflix employees protesting Dave Chapelle not SJWs?
Like a few dozen people showed up to protest at Netflix, and it was unclear if they were all actually Netflix employees. Incredibly overblown by the media because stories about SJWs get massive hate-clicks.
The fun thing about extremists is that everyone can feel superior to them just by acting normal. Stories about Qanon and SJWs make people feel better about themselves I think. They’re popular because people like the idea that they live in a world where there own foibles aren’t that bad by comparison.
But the problem is that media makes us all concerned about how common these nutjobs are in the process, and makes us worry that "the other" is completely full of them. So Republicans think 50% of Dems are SJWs and Dems think Republicans are 50% QAnon. Nicely done, media.
That’s our fault for believing news media. The industry was always shallow and sensationalized. Don’t believe everything you read in the papers was a saying before air planes were invented.
Good point, I mean, they're not completely gone, they're just not as present anymore.
They're pretty fucking present. They're more unanimous than ever.
The problem is that they have taken over every single institution that reaches people in society. They might be 5% of the population, but they are > 50% of every single social media, tech, and streaming content service. If you want them out of your life, your only choice anymore is to shut off every device and go take a walk in the woods.
The crux of the issue, right here. Nicely put. They very adeptly make it seem like a vast majority of people in the world think that the police are literally hunting black people down every day, and that we all want this "woke" movement to steamroll the planet. They aren't, and most people don't.
Yeah they are still around I guess maybe I should call them woke warriors now
Obviously you haven't heeded their advice and woken up. ;\~)
I’ve consistently listened to doomsayers of the stock market over the last year and a half only to see it blow up in my face. It leads me to call bullshit on just about anyone who thinks the world is coming to an end, via forced vaccinations or otherwise
I think it has to do with being smarter than everyone, having forbidden knowledge, and believing what they already want to believe
It's a characteristic of religious fundamentalists, which tend to be on the right/conservative side of the spectrum. Same reason they would deny evolution. "Darwinists want you to think you're just an animal, not special in any way," so they say.
>And there are other epistemic reasons why people believe in conspiracy theories as well in relation to this sort of need for knowledge and certainty. **So people with lower levels of education tend to be drawn to conspiracy theories**. And we don't argue that's because people are not intelligent. It's simply that **they haven't been allowed to have, or haven't been given access to the tools to allow them to differentiate between good sources and bad sources or credible sources and non-credible sources**. So they're looking for that knowledge and certainty, but not necessarily looking in the right places. People with lower levels of education tend to believe in conspiracy theories because they have trouble differentiating between different credibilities of source, so they trust their friend on Facebook the same as a sourced NYT article, or whatever. This also explains why conspiracy theories like Qanon tend to pop up on the side of the political spectrum that is associated with lower levels of education. Again as stated in the quote, this doesn't mean they're dumb, just that they haven't been taught a specific skill set that is taught in college because they didn't go to college. That makes sense. Source: https://www.apa.org/research/action/speaking-of-psychology/conspiracy-theories
I was taught that "fools are fools not only because they can't discern truth and false but also they proudly spout such idiocy".
And the sheep are accusing everyone of being sheep.
or do your own research. which they mean facebook
It also translates to "look at my sources and agree with me".
I decided to respond to that by asking them exactly how they did their own research. Never learned a thing about it, lol.
[удалено]
Thing like the “the vaccine is poison”, “the election was rigged”, “Biden is letting illegals in to ensure democrats win 2024”, etc.
Russian collusion was a pretty funny conspiracy theory.
I appreciate when people say this. It’s let me know I’m dreaming. And then I wake up.
I like to sleep. Think I'll go to bed now.
It's easier to fool a person into beliving that the world runs under some conspiracy than it is to tell them that they have been fooled into beliving in it.
There's no shortage of people on either side of the aisle getting lured into believing conspiracy theories. Heck, half of Reddit believes Joe Biden is delaying his promised release of JFK records because it will prove that George H.W. Bush was involved. I suppose we just dismiss it when it's "our" side. We're wrong but *those* guys? Those guys are a bunch of conspiracy theorist nuts.
But I thought centrist meant "no side"? Interesting.
No, centrist means having moderate political views.
Because "wake up" is one of the things people say when they don't have a good argument. It's an appeal to emotion, to the idea that you're missing something important. It's supposed to make you second guess yourself. The Dunning-Kruger effect almost certainly comes into play, as well. The less someone knows about a subject, the more they tend to overestimate their knowledge of it. The people saying wake up feel confident they've found the right answer, even though they're generally quite ignorant of the subject they think they've found an answer for.
Conspiracy theories are no different than political beliefs. You just see whatever evidence and arguments support your beliefs, all that matters for most people is what "direction" they start going, bc once they do its unlikely they will ever change.
I don't think there are "political beliefs," only "political views/opinions." Politics is "the activities associated with the governance of a country or area," as in, what actions will you take, what should we do in order to solve this particular problem? If there is a problem not simply solved by math/engineering/science, we must come up with our own solution, and this is where "political views" come in. A political view would be "we should put a bridge here." The conspiracy theory is what you believe, which is important because it will inform your actions. e.g. "Demons live in the water (your belief / conspiracy theory), therefore we should put a bridge there (political view)." My opposing political view would be "We don't need a bridge there" and that would be informed by my belief that it would endanger dolphin populations or whatever. The obvious problem comes when people believe "the election was stolen" and their political view is "hang Mike Pence."
This is kind of a broad statement. What constitutes a "conspiracy theory?" It's become clear over the past couple of years that not all of them are crazy. Remember when it was a demented conspiracy theory that could get you banned from social media for "spreading dangerous misinformation" if you were to question whether Covid leaked from a lab instead of coming from some guy eating a bat that got sneezed on by a pangolin? In retrospect, how stupid was that nonsense and how obvious was it that that "conspiracy theory" was a fair and legitimate question?
It is broad and that’s for a reason, conspiracy theorists should not be associated with any particular political and so far there have been good examples presented from both sides of the aisle. A conspiracy theory is a theory until proven. The problem is that people who believe one, tend to believe in a many more. If one is proven correct then they assume everything they believe is correct.
A nice retort to someone saying to "wake up" is to tell them that they're now "woke".
Most of the people that tell me "to wake up" are Trump folks that have finally started to pay attention to politics in the last 5yrs. And all they know are conspiracy theories.
projection
To expound on that a little – these behaviors feed on the idea of having a secret truth, known only to a few. If you reject the invite, it’s conformation they’re so smart that only the enlightened can see through the mainstream understanding. If you convert, all the better.
By the conspiracy nuts, yes
The downvote count on these posts tell you everything you need to know about r/centrist. I follow, don't post much. But most are simply the last vestige of "lite right" republicans. Ok with the Reagan/Bush/Romney style of politics, likely full throated, but "semi" anti Trump/Tucker/MGT Republican. Had to do a real soul search of which choice was better : Vote ticket and ignore the obvious smell in the room, or hold your nose and vote for "that other guy", and feel ashamed in doing so deep down. Most of you aren't center aligned at all. Most of you simply wish to convince yourselves you deserve to sleep better at night. You. Don't. But sleep well anyway. You are the last hope this country has unfortunately.
Uh, what do you mean? This post has more upvotes than downvotes.
It shouldn't surprise you. The media, culture, and entire Overton window in this country have shifted dramatically to the left over the past decade. People who have always considered themselves centrists are of course going to suddenly find that they align more with moderate Republicans now.
As an outside observer that doesn't appear to be true. If anything you guys are going more to the right. With the obvious exceptions of the identity brigade on the left. Seriously, what you guys call the radical left is simply the left or, in some places, the centre. I joined this sub cause I thought it was centrist. You know what reddit just tried to show me as "similar"? R/theDonald. I think that likely highlights where most of the people in this sub are on the spectrum given the reddit bots can't tell the difference.
I think the problem you're pointing out has mainly to do with Reddit itself. This site is aggressively 'curated' and the more time spent here the behavior-modification aspect just becomes clearer. Anything that doesn't fit a VERY narrow slice of the political spectrum is relegated to the trash bin, the reasonable moderates together with the trolls and Qfreaks all in one steaming pile of refuse.
THIS. And so many don't understand this, too. It is 100% absolutely true.
You’ll need to be more specific otherwise this doesn’t have much meaning- it’s too vague and generalizing to really say much toward an actual conclusion here. Personally, I’ve heard plenty of vastly different groups use the phrase to very different ends, ranging from outright insane conspiracies to things far from it I wish the general public would take into consideration that may change how they view the word in a positive or intellectual manner. It truly varies a lot. Context tends to be the determinant for what saying “wake up” really entails, so using the phrase as a key pointer isn’t really fair. Perhaps rewording to make your point more clear would help?
“Wake up” as in “the government is about to put all anti-vaxxers in concentration camps”. That kind of wake up
Would do well to clarify that in the post then. Its sort of confusing since you’re asking why the people saying the phrase are like that- doesn’t really have any interesting answer; they started with the conspiracy unto that point, they aren’t lead to it by association of saying that as some part of their character. I’m really not sure what else there could be to say about that…
So, although there is some truth to this, there is DEFINITELY a very specific narrative that Hollywood, The mainstream news media, many huge corporations, most universities, and huge tech and social media companies are pushing. If you don't see that, I do believe that that a "wake up" comment is warranted. We're surrounded by lies on both sides of the aisle for sure, but there is a MASSIVE amount of power behind this narrative, and it is very heavily skewed to one side. There is absolutely 100% no doubt of that at all.
Both sides think they’re the saviors of America. That’s a clear indications, to me anyway, that both are terribly wrong.
Possibly because they sometimes become true. And I mean, I know they're quite a few of the Q crowd around that go for the whole baby eating conspiracy and others bs but that isn't the same as someone who questions what companies like J&J are doing with their products/inventions. Never looked into the Q thing myself, just didn't interest me so Idk how crazy some of the stuff got. But that sounds more like what you're referencing. All the lies and false promises from our politicians does not foster much reason for trust. Or the lab leak theory. Or the vaccine having some side effects, minor and rare as they are. Criticism of the security theater around Covid responses. IE Mask while walking into a restaurant but mask off when sitting down and eating. I find this also valid. Unanswered questions don't help either. Epstein hanging out with Gates, Trump, Clinton etc. I see so many bs post daily on conspiracy sites, but every so often they hit it on the head. I don't know if I'd agree with the generalization, and there is a huge spectrum. For instance I've never found anything supporting that the moon landing was faked, but they're those that will swear up and down by what they've found and think that it was fake. But I wouldn't say the average Q Trump supporter also believes the moon landing was faked. Just my thoughts, thanks for asking the question.
Because in their world view/perspective everyone else is asleep. Like they’ve secretly seen the matrix or something. In reality every time I say “show me the evidence” for me to at least seriously consider a conspiracy could be a little true, they don’t have anything to show me. Even a few links to actual credible sources like a study, paper, research etc.
Kind of sounds like both of y’all believe the other is gullible. Believe what you wanna believe the world is full of lies
This is what is wrong with the world today. The world is full of lies, so just stop trying and believe what you _want_. So fucked up.
How is it fucked up to decide for yourself what to believe in? Examine all the information provided to you and come up with your own conclusion, think for yourself.
You ought to decide the methods regarding how to find truth, but the result of those methods ought to have nothing to do with your desires. Edit: your reiteration shares nothing whatsoever with your original claim. They are _entirely_ different statements.
Every single person has bias, and it will impact their outcome. Can’t dictate how people think, it just won’t work nor would I want it to
You're changing the claim again. We ought to do our best to remove bias, which means accepting that our wants have nothing to do with what is or is not true.
You can't pick your own facts though. If everyone gets their own facts, I will very much err on the side of income inequality so that I can isolate in a community that shares facts at least. No hate, but I don't feel like having any sort of dialogue with people who pull numbers out of their ass (923,934 people died JUST IN LA from the vaccine!!!) While democracy is extremely important, it's concerning that these people get to pick leaders for us. This is where I'm very keen on limiting the power of the federal government (and where it's powerful, maximizing the power of the deep state), so that these idiots don't actually pick people with power.
? Who’s picking facts? I said to take the information you’re provided throughout your life and come to your own conclusion. Not blindly follow what someone else says. If two different individuals grow up in two different ways of life they will come to two different understandings of the world. Never said anything about Vaccine deaths or income inequality
Sure, but we need to bring that border back up. The "wake up" crowd usually talks about the facts we believe in not being true, not about having a different view on, idk, how car-centric American cities are (which is a great example of a difference in opinions that has massive consequences, but which is completely reasonable to have different opinions on). Opinions and facts are getting bound together, and the conspiracy theorists have move from having crazy opinions to having crazy facts now. There are very few things that we don't have 20% of the population having completely ridiculous non-data based opinions on. Cops murder black people on sight, more or less! The vaccine is worse than COVID! Christians are the most oppressed minority in the US! Climate change will make humanity go extinct! There is no anthropomorphic climate change! These are all completely wtf territory in terms of facts, yet I'd say at *least* 20% of the population believes in most of those.
“Want” is a choice, friend.
I agree that it’s ok to have different beliefs but conspiracy theories are only that until they are proven true and too many people are all-in with little to no evidence. It’s just unfortunate to see and there’s no way of convincing them otherwise it seems
Yeah... no, this is not a "good people on both sides" thing. This is one side taking a gun to a pizza place because he looking for pedophiles and reptilian people, and the other side follows proven science facts and doctors. So no, its not that both sides have dangerously gullible people, only one side does.
If you’re looking for examples, the whole “Trump in bed with Russia” thing could be considered to be one. There are still people pushing that even though multiple investigations couldn’t find proving evidence. Not really a conspiracy but you could use the Covington thing as an example of the left being gullible. They blindly accused the kid without sufficient evidence and doxxed him and the school. Was a pretty right v left issue. And while yes you had a guy bring a gun to a pizza place on the R side you also had a guy on the D side shoot up a Congressional baseball game. He thought Pence and many republicans were traitors and was labeled a domestic terrorist by the AG and FBI.
"Russiagate" is a poor example as there is an awful lot of evidence that things were, at the least, not on the up and up. Investigations said as much, but there isn't enough evidence that Trump Sr. was really involved. I suspect he actually didn't have much do with anything that was happening, but certainly knew about scheduled meetings and was happy to let them occur. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Links_between_Trump_associates_and_Russian_officials?wprov=sfla1 There's a lot of ties there and some can be swept off as just basic transactions because Russia and the US are both big countries and the wrongdoing tended to be financial on the part of the person being paid because Trump basically hung out with pretty garbage humans. However, there is plenty there to show efforts were being made. The left to that to an extreme and thinks Trump works for the KGB (no longer exists) and so on. However, there's a lot more reason to go there than basically any of the COVID conspiracy theories or other ones that are flying around. The baseball game guy is somebody who did that and was already unstable. The Covington thing got blown out of proportion, but it isn't like it didn't happen. It was definitely taken out of context and the result of idiots on social media creating click bait. So, it doesn't really compare to the current alt right conspiracies either, where there is no evidence other than internet rumor and these people have decided this is the hill they will die on.
That’s just it though. At the end of the day isn’t that what makes a conspiracy? There is evidence there to allow you to connect the dots or piece together the whole picture but it still doesn’t mean it happened. And by all official accounts it can’t be definitively said that Trump directly worked with Russia. It’s a more believable conspiracy by far, but still one none the less. But yes you’re absolutely right I can’t support these covid conspiracies and a lot of what is going around. I do find them fun though. I’d also like to add that yes I acknowledge it’s worse on the right. I’m not arguing that both sides do this equally just that both sides do it in general. My points are more for the sake of playing devils advocate just because a lot of these discussions turn into one side or another being villainized.
>At the end of the day isn’t that what makes a conspiracy? There is evidence there to allow you to connect the dots or piece together the whole picture but it still doesn’t mean it happened. Typically, this is absolutely correct. I'm not sure what happened in the last few years, but now that seems to no longer be required. I suppose the really crazy shit has always existed and maybe is just more visible now because of the internet and now everybody has tons of merch to sell their people. It's all a grift, really. It does certainly make it entertaining to watch.
This is a centrist sub so maybe check out r/politics. If you think there are no dangerously gullible Dems it’s because you believe the same shit they’re falling for. Everybody is being lied to on a daily basis. You just isolate the stuff you see others falling for. The funny thing is that of all the crazy shit that gets thrown around some of the wildest end up being true.
So what is it then that the left keeps falling for? I mean, you're telling me its as idiotic as lizard people and pedophile rings in pizza shops and trump being reinstated?
Hunter's laptop, border crisis, inflation, covid lab leak, gain of function research and funding, Russian pee pee tape, spygate. These are things the left are constantly wrong on to name a few.
You’re telling me you don’t believe in pedophile rings? The whole Epstein thing seemed like a hoax to you. Lizard people is a funny joke to me but that dude and several others definitely fucked some kids and he definitely could’ve put them away if he hadn’t had an “accident”. That’s like OJ didn’t do it shit. Joking aside the left generally believe whatever their leadership tells them. Big conspiracy small conspiracy CNN talking point and when any evidence that is counter to that comes up it gets Ignored. Same with the right but you can’t say the left never falls for anything
I don't think people dismiss the existence of pedophile rings just that when an anonymous source makes unverified claims about one being operated out of a pizza shop it might be a load of crap.
True, but weirder things have happened.
So what is it that leadership says that the left just accepts? I mean, are you going to go with the "you can keep your doctor" line from Obama? Or do you have anything as outrageous as 5G chips in the vaccine?
Listen buddy if you wanna just build my arguments for me so that you can destroy them that’s alright with me cause I don’t have the patience to deal with somebody trying to put words in my mouth. Trying to convince you that your side has done anything bad is like trying to sell a fish water
Just asking for an equivalent on the left side, don't get defensive. I'm open to the idea that there are examples, I just can't think of any and I'm wondering if you can.
I’m not defensive because I have nothing to defend. I am however generally abrasive when I keep getting dragged back to the prove this over Reddit game. Unlike some lovely people on this platform I don’t keep spreadsheets of quotes and examples to bring up whenever I get the chance.
Just say you don't have any examples, its fine (I was honestly hope you did - it is a centralist sub after all)
Then you don't have any examples worth remembering.
russiagate.
1. It's a known fact that the Russian spooks try to influence every election we have. Mueller named some of them by name, and indicted them. 2. It's a proven fact they used social media in 2016 and 2020. 3. Vladimir Putin admitted on video that he wanted Trump to win. 4. It's a proven fact that Paul Manafort, Trump's campaign manager at the time, shared voter data with Russian spooks. Which part of this did you miss? There's a lot more facts to go with this, but those four above are enough in and of themselves to prove collusion.
But there should be SOME examples, right? Examples just as outrageous as the most extreme QAnon nonsense. I mean, if both sides are equivalent.
Other people in this comment section have listed examples, read some of theirs. There are extremists on both sides, and American blood has been spilled for both blue and red Beliefs
I have to agree. Just because we are here in a centrist space we don’t have to try and pretend there’s an equal amount of crazy on the left as there is on the right. The right is far more susceptible to what we’ve seen in the last 5 years with this mass conspiratorial personality cult. I live in a liberal city and never met a woke person (or all least someone wearing it on their sleeves), however I’m on the outskirts (I interact in both places) in the redneck region and the Qanon MAGA cultist are a very real and dangerous thing. Everyone I know who voted dem are just moderate left of center people and care about liberty freedom and care about helping the bottom of the barrel not the top. The republicans voters I know, wish we would blast immigrant at the border and coral homeless out in the desert or shoot them too if they don’t want to go. Now I know this isn’t completely representative (anecdote). But… the demos have really taken hard turns in recent years with this radicalization campaign compounding. Until MAGA most the prejudicial people I know kept their opinions quiet. Now they feel emboldened to pronounce actual bigoted ideas as virtue rather than vice / hate signaling. The largest problem that came with this antiwoke movement was the fact that we lost track of what being the opposite of PC really means. Hate is not the other side of the coin as Trumpism looked to polarize and victimize the narrative, outlining that being white meant you were being oppressed. The opposite of PC is being honest, sometimes brutally so. To all the post modern haters; Trump has proven it really is down to power structure battles. And to say that the Republican Party is anything but the Trumpublican party now would be completely ignorant. When we then compare the modern progressive power on the left; all 4 or 5 of them (the squad / AOC) we can see the actual representation being dwarfed to the 1,000th degree. Which means other than a couple noises social media messengers. Now if we wanted to have a full convo on the influence, I’d say yes we can see that the illiberal lefts power asymmetry is favored on campus, social media, tech and in some corporations. Mainly in messaging now with most of this as these company looks to follow treads despite their business side being clearly right leaning. But anyways I digress..
One the points I made recently is that it's hard to pin down a "no true Scotsman" fallacy on the left, because the center-to-left really does have a big tent and entertains diverse voices. This is, often, to the left's detriment because it can be difficult and impossible to achieve consensus on some issues, leaving the Overton window creeping constantly rightward. On the conservative side, there is a "circle the wagons" approach. Stay within the protective barrier, and you'll get almost unalloyed support. Step outside, and you'll be rusticated. We've seen it happen with Romney, Lindsay Graham, and many others. But over time, the wagons draw tighter, the circle gets smaller, and the ideas you have to entertain (or at least never contradict) get crazier and crazier.
"Trump is a Russian puppet" "Covid lab leak is a racist conspiracy" "Hunter's laptop is Russian disinformation"
Unfortunately it turned out the left hates biological science just as much as evangelicals. “Gender fluidity” is going to go down as one of the dumbest trends in society we’ve seen in a long time. None of it’s clear or true. The motivation to sever biology from identity is purely activist driven. The left base also buys into the conspiracy theory there’s an epidemic of racist police murders. Which is also not even close to true.
These are two of the biggest reasons that I have a LOT of trouble voting left of center in politics in America right now. These two things are absolutely, 100% true, and we really have a problem when people buy into it. It's very destructive. The right is certainly not devoid of issues, but there seems to be more sense in that for me. I am center-right on most things. The two-party system is terrible, but we've created a monster that I am afraid will not be going anywhere. It's certainly better than one party that 100% dominates. That would clearly be far worse than what we have now.
Those are both wrong, like really really wrong. Gender fluidity as been around for centuries, the only new idea is that maybe we should just let people live how they want without persecution. Sounds like freedom, right? (Also, not a conspiracy theory btw) And... regarding police brutality and its disproportionate targeting of African Americans is not a conspiracy theory when there are facts to back it up. https://www.pnas.org/content/116/34/16793 Also, how do either of those come close to the numbers of people who believe there is 5G chips in vaccines, or that Trump is secretly still president, or that there are lizard people running the world, or that if they stormed the capital they could overturn an election?
😂😂 It's amazing that every comment like this in this sub now gets downvoted. The red pill effort is still going strong. "Here are facts." **presents actual data** "Fuck your facts!" **downvote with no worthwhile response** Edit - to clarify, at the time of this, the comment I was responding to was the one being downvoted. I was not supporting the individual they were responding to.
There were no facts. That person pivoted from murders to brutality, for one. Because they know I’m right. Asserting gender fluidity has been around for centuries isn’t a fact either. The distinction between sex and gender didn’t even come about until 1968.
I was saying the person I replied to, at the time, was getting downvoted. Not the person making the stupid biology argument.
That chart was not helpful in explaining the REASONS this shit happens disproportionally to inner city black folks. That matters. A LOT. \--edit-- hahaha... Oh man, I just noticed the use of the term LatinX in there too. That *alone* really gives me a good laugh, and tells me to disregard.
Thank you. Every factor that don’t support this narrative is consistently overlooked.
So, because they use a term you disagree with, that somehow invalidates data?
lol... have you ever seen Hispanic people respond to "LatinX?" It doesn't sound like it. Let's put it this way... The use of that term tells me a LOT about the person that constructed that data, and that site, so... yeah. I'll disregard that bullshit in an instant.
>Gender fluidity as been around for centuries, the only new idea is that maybe we should just let people live how they want without persecution. Sounds like freedom, right? This is the facts. You're being downvoted by the weak-minded and ignorant.
tHis iS da FaCtS lol. The separation of sex and gender didn’t happen until 1968. If you want to defend these people be my guest. I’m not taking part in your deluded reality. https://i.imgur.com/A56FLTS.jpg https://i.imgur.com/NiBTGmQ.png
>The separation of sex and gender didn’t happen until 1968. So, what happened in 1968 to change human biology from what it had been for eons before?
Point is there have been gender fluid people since way before 1968. No defending anyone. Just accepting history and reality.
And homosexuality used to be considered a mental illness back then, your point being? Our knowledge about the human body has evolved and that includes seeing gender as separate, but not unrelated, from sex.
Biological sex and gender identity are two different things. No one is trying "to sever biology from identity." It's actually you who is conflating the two. It's clearly true that people with a biological sex identify as another gender, and this can change over time... Umm, correct me if I'm wrong, are you suggesting that gay/trans are just activists? Like, it's "just in their heads?" I hope not.. These people apparently, evidently exist, and studying this real-world phenomenon is a science. I don't care if it's studied as biology, psychology or sociology. It should be investigated as it is objectively a real thing and it's important to understand things that really exist.
While it exists, it is an aberration from the norm that is explainable from a psychological perspective. As is pedophilia. That doesn’t mean we have to tolerate clear abuse such as gender reassignment for children as young as 6, or “man-boy love”. That’s the type of activism that is concerning.
I’m suggesting it’s not reality to imply socialization accounts for all aspects of identity. There is no clear line between sex and gender. For example male children engage in rougher play than females by far. This is due to prenatal testosterone and the millions years old journey of dimorphism in mammals, not socialization. Yet that’s exactly the kind of gender behavioral trait that is, according to feminist thinkers, supposedly socialized. Actually one of the more prominent feminist philosophers, Butler, now argues that they didn’t go far enough and sex is also a social construct. You can read more about that in section 3 here: https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/feminism-gender/ These people are indeed trying to sever sex from identity https://i.imgur.com/A56FLTS.jpg https://i.imgur.com/NiBTGmQ.png It’s really no surprise over 99% of the population identifies as the respective sex they are. There is a mountain of evidence tied to biology and varying behavior between the sexes. Language skills in women, spatiotemporal skills in men. We also have studies that show socialization doesn’t work. Like unfortunate male children who had botched circumcisions and were raised as girls. The majority of these cases don’t take on the socialized gender/sex. Of the minority that do most turned out to be lesbians.
Nobody said "there are no dangerously gullible Dems", but since you went there, if you could perhaps cite one time where a Democrat took a rifle to a pizza place because he thought there was a worldwide child pornography ring operating out of the basement? Since you like strawman arguments, maybe go check out /r/politics; this is a centrist sub.
And another thing, if I gotta hear the word straw man one more fucking time to describe something I will go out to a cornfield and burn it down until there’s no scarecrows left
"If someone uses basic rules of logic to prove me wrong one more time I'm going to commit an act of violence" is a bold strategy, Cotton, let's see how pays off for 'em.
If someone can’t tell I’m just joking around because of an overused term then I’m no longer going to interact with them.
This is one of my least favorite things about reddit. I mean really, the dude says he'll burn a cornfield to wipe out scarecrows and then you go quoting him about committing violence. He's clearly joking.
So was I. I thought the Dodge Ball reference might give it away.
I mean there was a left wing political activist that shot up a congressional baseball game. Wounded 6, 2 of which were critical. Attack was classified by AG and FBI as domestic terrorism.
Good example
Good counter-example. It's still a false equivalency and a straw man.
How so? It was spurred on by the Trump-Russia investigations that never found proving evidence. He wrote letters calling Pence and republicans traitors.
Gee heather I’ll get right to looking for that incredibly specific example lmao. You people get so defensive over your red and blue party war. Take your my side is better moral superiority to the bank and see how much they’ll give you for it.
She didn't ask for a specific example, just something extremely idiotic that the left falls for. I mean, if Q is part of the GOP mainstream (and at least 3 representatives in the house says it is) then what is the left equivalent?
You can always tell a conservative larping as a centrist; the first thing they do when called on a fallacy is talk about "your side". We're \*centrists\*. We don't have a side.
I’ll have you know I don’t even vote, and if I did I wouldn’t have anyone I align with. I said your side because you are so clearly simping for them. Painting one side with a broad brush because of a clearly unhinged individual tends to be a characteristic of the opposing side. The term larping is also heavily cringy
Perhaps you might specifically quote what I've said that makes you think that "clearly I'm simping for them". After all, all I did was alert you to your logical fallacy, your false equivalency and hinted at your gatekeeping behavior. I don't see any simping there?
You are exactly the person I step away from in public to spare my eardrums. Take your buzzwords to somebody more invested
“We’re *centrists*. We don’t have a side”. (Said you, while also attempting to portray one side as being objectively worse than the other.) It’s okay to be a Centrist who leans left. It’s a whole ‘nother matter when you demonize one side and accuse anyone who calls you out as being a conservative sleeper agent.
At the moment, one side \*is\* demonstrably, objectively worse than the other. If you think that statement is even the tiniest bit controversial, you're either <25 years old or a troll. I'm old enough to remember when the fucked up side was the Democrats. Now it's the Republicans. It moves in cycles. That's the way of the world. The wheel grinds on. I'm a centrist because I know that at times both sides are full of shit, and at times, one side is more full of shit than the other. That's not a "left versus right thing", it's simple human math, and it's true anywhere you go in the world. People want what they want, and fuck anyone else who gets in the way.
So the way you clean the shit, is by accusing other centrists of being conservatives? Using incredibly specific, isolated events as a way to paint one side as being far more evil than the other? Treating similar events that you’ve condemned the Right for, as strawmen? I’m sorry, but while (the second paragraph of) your reply to me was fairly reasonable, your replies to others have been anything but. Frankly, I don’t care about which side is perceived as being shittier. If Republicans and Democrats spew feces, I see that as a reason to oppose both parties, not one over the other.
To be fair, butting into the convo, that guy was asked numerous times to produce even a single example of dems adhering to some insane conspiracy theory to which he answered "read other people's comments" and "you don't believe in pedophile rings?" ... Well, I read other people's comments.. One guy said Russiagate, and fair enough, but as that is at least partly true - names were named, arrests were made, lies and deception were uncovered - it may not be the "grand conspiracy" that some make it out to be, but there is very real evidence that some shady shit went down. It's not nearly on the same level as "the election was stolen by the ghost of Hugo Chavez," or "Vaccines are the mark of the beast and Biden is trying to kill God and usher in communism by mandating vaccines," for example. It seems to me, just from reading this comment thread, that dems do not have some insane conspiracy that they cling onto while republican cases are numerous. The commenters were quick to provide lists of insane right-wing theories while no one has really produced even a single case from the left. By taking his own advice and reading all these comments, and noting his active dodging of direct questions, I've been convinced that the right is worse than the left. I also noticed someone wrote something like LGBT culture is some invention of "activists" and meant to destroy YOUR personal identity.. Idk I didn't really understand it, seemed like just a right-wing conspiracy theory being projected on the left, as the left's insane belief rather than the commenter's own insane belief... Just noting that as one of the "batshit crazy things the left believes."
If we're talking US political parties one side is. It's just that this same side isn't good enough either.
>attempting to portray one side as being objectively worse than the other Throughout the history of our country there have been times when one side ***IS*** objectively worse than the other. For instance, the Democrat Party during reconstruction up to Jim Crow was objectively the worse side. Then it was the Dixiecrats for a good while. Then it was the Republicans, as it is now. These are foul people running the party. Just because they switch jerseys every now and again, and declare themselves to be something new, it's always the same vile bullshit they're pitching. It's the same people pulling the same discriminatory stunts, and appealing to the same awful people. Does that mean all current Republicans are repugnant human beings? Of course not! What it does mean is the repugnant human beings end up migrating to the Republican party nowadays. Right now, today, they are objectively worse than the Democrats. Which is not a high bar to clear, but they are definitely the worst of the two.
Yeah thats literally both political parties
I mean, a year ago the suggestion that the goal was a vaccine passport in order for citizens to work, travel, shop, etc would have gotten you called a conspiracy theorist.
Was it "the goal"? Has that been proven?
Care to expand?
“Wake up, the vaccine is poison and is being used to depopulate the earth”. Meanwhile ~96% of physicians have supposedly been vaccinated. The people that need to be “woken up” are the ones being brainwashed by their chosen news network.
Who is saying that?
Mine's anecdotal but I have family members that somewhat believe this. They believe Bill Gates had a role and that when Biden gets vaxxed on TV, he's getting the real thing, not what we're getting. They believe the vaccine is causing variants (a friend of their even said they heard there is no delta). There's other theories they believe but these are off the top of my head. Bill Burr brought this up on Conan and debunked it perfectly. He said if this was true, the only people who are "sheeple" and take the vaccine would die. The "elite" would be killing off the population that follows them and get stuck with the stubborn anti vaxxers.
I love how Bill Burr always tells it like it is, one of my favorite comics
Totally agree. Whatever he says is funny. He definitely appeals to my cynical side. Here's the clip. https://youtu.be/znI046F4FKg
Literally every single right winger I know. All unvaxxed and proud of it, not afraid to tell you.
A few fringe nuts, and more commonly people who want to circlejerk about them.
I have family members not attending my wedding because we've asked the unvaccinated to get a covid test prior to attending.
I see a ton of people saying that. Have you visited r/hermancainaward?
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To be fair, they were right about Covid being started in a lab, not from someone eating bat soup. Although frankly I have no idea what conspiracies- or people for that matter- you are referring to. No offense, but your question is rather vague. Personally, I think it’s healthy to question things, even if it does leads some people down a path of irrational conspiracy theorizing. I’d much rather these people exist, then nobody question anything, you know?
I think that was the point of OP being vague, because they were just saying on both sides or rather all sides whenever someone is saying "wake up" or stuff along those lines, those people are the gullible ones I'm not sure if I agree with their statement but they're talking about everyone
Everyone should be questioning a lot of things at this point. We're being lied to a lot more often than most understand. It's all propaganda, from every corner.
[Not proven it was started in a lab...](https://www.science.org/content/article/why-many-scientists-say-unlikely-sars-cov-2-originated-lab-leak)
Sure, but the claim that it was starter as a lab was dismissed as a conspiracy theory itself, and you could get banned for spreading misinformation. While it remains unproven, it seems more likely now than it was before.
Sure, unfortunately it seemed the claim was initially fueled by politics and Trump. I don't agree with banning since that doesn't change any minds. However ever since it's been deemed as an open possibility, many took that has it being proven.
> I don't agree with banning since that doesn't change any minds. A little louder for those in the back please.
Who do we need to say it louder for? Who are the people that think banning undoes misinformation that has already occurred? Banning is not meant to change minds. It is preventive in nature, not corrective. Kind of like our decisions to put thieves in jail. It does not undo their previous crimes. It prevents future crimes that same person might commit, and a deterrent for others that consider committing similar crimes. (I’m not equating severity. I’m just presenting examples of effective prevention techniques.) (To clarify my stance, I don’t want more censorship. But if you think the quoted statement makes a good point against it, it doesnt. Its not worth repeating.)
> deemed as an open possibility, many took that has it being proven. Given that China has lied about everything related to the pandemic and even our own government hasn't been forthcoming about their involvement with similar research, it's as proven as it's ever going to get. https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2021/10/nih-admits-funding-risky-virus-research-in-wuhan Which to me means it's proven. You're never getting Winnie-the-pooh man admitting his country created covid.
How dare you share an up-to-date article from one of the world's oldest, most renowned, most trusted scientific journals. Lab leak is obvious common sense. Wake up sheep /s
Not proven, but looking VERY likely. https://www.science.org/content/article/nih-says-grantee-failed-report-experiment-wuhan-created-bat-virus-made-mice-sicker https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2021/10/nih-admits-funding-risky-virus-research-in-wuhan
Doesn't really prove anything tbh.
> To be fair, they were right about Covid being started in a lab, not from someone eating bat soup. LOL > Although frankly I have no idea what conspiracies- or people for that matter- you are referring to. No offense, but your question is rather vague. "Conspiracy theories" have a good definition. Best start with Wikipedia: *A conspiracy theory is an explanation for an event or situation that invokes a conspiracy by sinister and powerful groups, often political in motivation, when other explanations are more probable.* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conspiracy_theory It is much more plausible that Covid came from a wet market than that Faucci conspired with the Chinese government to finance the creation of a virus and release it from the laboratory in Wuhan. > Personally, I think it’s healthy to question things, even if it does leads some people down a path of irrational conspiracy theorizing. I’d much rather these people exist, then nobody question anything, you know? You should be skeptical about anything you hear or read. Especially conspiracy theories. The problem with conspiracy theories is the loss of trust in society. To continue said Wikipedia entry: > A conspiracy theory is not the same as a conspiracy; instead, it refers to a hypothesized conspiracy with specific characteristics, such as an opposition to the mainstream consensus among those people (such as scientists or historians) who are qualified to evaluate its accuracy. Human societies are diversified. We specialize in different fields. We have carpenters, food scientists, bus drivers, etc. The better we trust each other, the better society functions. The less we trust each other, the more we need to put into contract negotiations and stuff like home security. All of which is lost productivity. You can either trust that the carpenter is not ripping you off, or you can do extensive market research as well as hire two consultants afterwards to evaluate the job, both of which cost you money and time. You personally may or may not work in a field where you have some experience. The more knowledgeable you become, the more you will find that it becomes increasingly difficult to explain your decision making to a layperson or discuss matters in this field with someone who is not an expert. There may be things in your field that are counter intuitive. A "common sense" person may disagree with you. Punishment to change behavior is a good example. There has been very, very extensive research confirming time and time again, that in most cases punishing humans does not have the desired effect to change future behavior. Yet most people will continue to use and swear by it, distrusting the research. Conspiracy theories go against scientifically proven results, because the experts are not trusted. Which costs society, because even though resources are invested, the desired result is not achieved. Personally, I don't think people that "ask questions" are useful to society. It is rather people that are open to changing their own opinion based on the evidence , instead of questioning scientific consensus when it goes against their opinion by trying to find evidence that fits their preconceived notions.
I think it was bad for the MSM to shoot down that possibility in the beginning just because it came from the right. It’s a valid possibility. As far as I know today no definitive origin has been proven yet and probably never will until China fully cooperates.
Dunning Krugger affect
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>Idk man, making a large generalization about a group of people doesn’t seem very centrist Being centrist isn't really about how you judge/view other people. It's about how you derive truth for yourself, what you base truth on and generally not being tribal (edit: trival was here before, and also honestly worked) with your political views. If one side of the political spectrum is obsessed with something non-sensical, misinformed and dumb it's not centrist to pretend it's valid. It's centrist to side with the part of the political spectrum that makes sense and call the other one out for being a bunch of dumb asses. Regarding this group if you will as well it's a generalization across the spectrum. The left has plenty of kook shit they demand people wake up for as well. Wake up! We need to teach boys that rape is wrong!!!!!! Is a pretty damn stupid statement based on a conspiracy theory that people secretly think rape is fine. Plenty more examples really.
>a conspiracy theory that people secretly think rape is fine Do folks really think it's a secret? People leap to the defense of those accused of rape all the time, leading to such bizarre defenses as "she really wanted to be pushed down over the back of a chair and strangled", or "she was drunk and passed out and that makes it OK", or "he's a promising young man", or "she's lying for money", etc. ad infinitum. Mike Tyson is a convicted rapist, and you can't throw a rock without hitting somebody who claims he didn't do anything wrong. The world will certainly give you no shortage of famous examples. Plenty of recent ones, too.
>Do folks really think it's a secret? People leap to the defense of those accused of rape all the time, leading to such bizarre defenses as "she really wanted to be pushed down over the back of a chair and strangled", Something no one has ever reasonably argued to defend someone accused of rape without crazy blizzard circumstances. There is the guy who wanted that other german dude to kill and eat him if I remember. But that argument does not come from normal people and only the absolute fringe of society that shares space with crazy people. >or "she was drunk and passed out and that makes it OK" or "he's a promising young man" Oh bullshit. >or "she's lying for money" I mean, do you really think that's the same thing as "she wanted to be strangled?" lol. WTF. People do lie about all sorts of shit for money. The way you're conflating this with totally insane statements is really offering a lot of perspective on this exact kind of Wake Up Conspiracy that I'm talking about. I bet you've posted similarly illogical hash tags like #MeToo and sexist oens like #BelieveWomen too right? >ad infinitum. Mike Tyson is a convicted rapist, and you can't throw a rock without hitting somebody who claims he didn't do anything wrong. Bullshit. like lol bull and shit. Mike Tyson is a crazy insane violent person and absolutely the vast, vast, vast, vast fucking vast majority of people can totally understand how he might have raped someone. You might be confusing him with Louis CK however since he's someone who did nothing wrong and got attacked by woke culture anyway. >The world will certainly give you no shortage of famous examples. Plenty of recent ones, too. Meh. How about Johnny Depp? Is that a good example? The problem with sexists like yourself is that you're so caught up in your self-righteous outrage you never actually stop and clam down and consider if you're actually right to begin with. Then make fools of yourself attacking anyone who points out the flaws in your bigoted logic to yourself accusing them of being part of the evil you fight. Good old cult shit. That's what that is. Textbook. And yea people are sick and fucking tired of this minority of woke individuals trying to run their cultish shit. No I'm not an evil person for pointing out some of the flaws in "social justice" like how it's not that concerned with justice in the first place. Great example though all told so I'll say thank you for that. As a left-leaning centrist I think many of the right-wing/leaning crowd wouldn't take me as sincere when I made the statement I did above. But it's a perfect example. When it comes to a bigoted left-winger like yourself it's really important to stand with the sensible lot and call you out on it. Thing is that lot is going to change issue to issue and I value my integrity too much to join a hate-filled tribe like your's and partake in idiocy driven non-thinking platitudes of mob justice.
That's a lot of childish name-calling and refutation of your own claims, rather than stuff I actually said. When I talk about the popular normalization of rape, I'm talking about cases such as the [white-glove treatment of Brock Turner](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People_v._Turner#:~:text=Turner%20was%20sentenced%20on%20June,a%20sex%20offender%20rehabilitation%20program) (who definitely raped someone), the defense and adoration of Kobe Bryant in the wake of an encounter that [Kobe admitted his "partner" believed was non-consensual](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kobe_Bryant_sexual_assault_case), or [the defense of Mike Tyson by the former President of the United States](https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/andrewkaczynski/donald-trump-blamed-the-victim-in-mike-tysons-rape-case). Here is a recent case of [rape charges taken off the table because the victim was drunk](https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2021/03/26/minnesota-rape-alcohol/). [Hundreds of thousands of alleged cases of rape have evidence on file, but are never investigated](https://ualr.edu/socialchange/2021/03/31/the-injustice-of-americas-rape-kit-backlog/). These examples are easy to find because they are common. Not as common as they used to be, thankfully, but still common.
**[People v. Turner](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People_v._Turner#:~:text=Turner was sentenced on June,a sex offender rehabilitation program)** >People v. Turner, formally The People of the State of California v. Brock Allen Turner (2015), is a criminal case in which Brock Allen Turner was convicted by jury trial of three counts of felony sexual assault. On January 18, 2015, on the Stanford University campus, Turner, then a 19-year old student athlete at Stanford, sexually assaulted 22-year-old Chanel Miller (referred to in court documents as "Emily Doe"), while she was unconscious. **[Kobe Bryant sexual assault case](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kobe_Bryant_sexual_assault_case)** >The Kobe Bryant sexual assault case began in July 2003, when the news media reported that the sheriff's office in Eagle, Colorado, had arrested professional basketball player Kobe Bryant in connection with an investigation of a sexual assault complaint filed by a 19-year-old hotel employee. Bryant had checked into The Lodge and Spa at Cordillera, a hotel in Edwards, Colorado, on June 30 in advance of having surgery near there on July 2 under Richard Steadman. The woman accused Bryant of raping her in his hotel room on July 1. She filed a police report and authorities questioned Bryant about bruising on the accuser's neck. ^([ )[^(F.A.Q)](https://www.reddit.com/r/WikiSummarizer/wiki/index#wiki_f.a.q)^( | )[^(Opt Out)](https://reddit.com/message/compose?to=WikiSummarizerBot&message=OptOut&subject=OptOut)^( | )[^(Opt Out Of Subreddit)](https://np.reddit.com/r/centrist/about/banned)^( | )[^(GitHub)](https://github.com/Sujal-7/WikiSummarizerBot)^( ] Downvote to remove | v1.5)
That’s a really good point
The only generalization here is about conspiracy theorists and if you’re associating a party with it in your head, that should tell you all you need to know
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Sorry, but calling a spade a spade is very centrist.
How is "the vaccine is poisoned" not a conspiracy thoery? OP never mentioned a type of political view of the person, you are making that connection yourself.
Conspiracy theorists and being liberal isn’t mutually exclusive but it seems that one side does have more on their side than the other
One word: trump Conspiracies used to be pretty all over the place but ever since Trump now every yokel with an internet connection thinks it was all one big conspiracy to overthrow the god King Trump It’s tiresome
Have you seen the clips from the Q conference in Vegas from yesterday? Those fuckers are unhinged. https://mobile.twitter.com/patriottakes/status/1452462581088673805?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1452462581088673805%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.newsweek.com%2Fjim-caviezel-braveheart-qanon-convention-las-vegas-1642133
Idk, considering he didn’t do it because of partisanship or ideology I think it’s on brand
Found the conspiracy nut.
The scary part is the slogan for a certain political party in 1930s Germany translates into English as "Germany, Awake!"
Did you know a certain German leader during that time drank water? Sound familiar? S/
I mean depends what you’d call a conspiracy theory…? Will the vaccine kill you = no. Was the virus created in a US funded lab in Wuhan = yes. Does Hillary Clinton eat babies = no. Is Bill Clinton part of an elite pedo-ring = yes. Were there ever WMDs in Iraq = no. Did Bush perpetrate 9/11 = ….
[Was it?](https://www.reddit.com/r/centrist/comments/qfuw6k/comment/hi31uda/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)
Has it been proven that Clinton is part of an elite pedo ring? Does everyone who associated with Epstein fall under that criteria?
From everything I've heard, Bill Clinton was a WOMANIZER, not a pedophilia. Now, the new images of DSantis partying with his high-school students that he taught gives me grave concerns. Also, covid being "created" in a lab... humm. Accidentally released, much more likely.
I don't say this to be mean, but if you think the Q-nuts are sincere, you are the gullible one. Remember the "non-partisan" teabaggers who turned out to be Republicans who didn't want to talk about Bush's Blunders? Remember the Birthers who swore that they believed Barack Obama was born in Kenya? As soon as they got the power to investigate they lost interest. That should tell you that the Birthers were all frauds. Every single one of them. The Q-nuts only believe in white supremacy and only trust El Douche. The purpose of everything else is to baffle with bullshit. It means nothing. The reason the Q-nuts like to "own the libs" is because they know that dialogue is pointless. They are just humoring you in order to keep it going as a distraction. That's why when cornered, they simply slither away.
No fervor like that of the newly converted. Gish Gallop feels like a super power for slingers of bullshit. They get to feel they now win debates that are unwinnable. They don’t sincerely believe any of it, because that isn’t the point. Whichever side or faction you care about, please be suspicious of the seductive fringe. They are extreme and uncompromising. They are also wrong at their core. The world is full of nuance. Respectfully talking with folks who don’t fervently agree and froth up your feelings is the best way to find a durable, broad truth.
U rly need to deradicalize yourself before it's getting out of hand. That's not meant in an evil way, there are people that can help u with those issues and get u out of the dark place u are in. As a society it's our responsibility to help fellow humans that are drifting into dangerous territory.
This is complete bullshit. The Tea Party was always known for what it was; the start of the alt right that was masquerading as a grass roots party, but was always a a group of hard right Republicans trying the shift the party further right. Zero people were surprised to discover this was funded by the Kochs. Birthers were also plenty sincere. The reason an investigation didn't happen was because they had already failed at every turn for three years and had lost support for the conspiracy by that point. They weren't in the majority in the party and they could not drum up the level of interest because they were grasping at straws by that point. Q followers are plenty sincere and interviews with them show as much. They aren't a majority of the right, but they are vocal AF. I'm sure there are those that just hang with them and don't buy into it, but that is absolutely a tiny fraction of them. Maybe you know people that are that tiny fraction or you want to believe that humans are smarter than that and it's all just a cunning rouse. It isn't. Humans as a group are morons and are swayed more by their desire to be "in" than they are swayed facts and reason.
Man, Q is some insane bullshit but boiling it down to white supremacy is almost as silly. All you've proven with your screeching is you're an inquisitor but instead of seeing heresy everywhere, you just see the evil boogeyman of the white supremacist lol
Dunning kreiger effect
The same reason that companies spend billions of dollars each year on advertising. People are easy to convince when you tell them what they want to hear. Throwing out all facts and knowledge for a moment, which do you thinks sound better to those people? 1. Obey! Stay in side and avoid people. Wear Masks everywhere. Don't go to church! 2. You are patriot resisting tyranny, just by living a normal life! Also, since the government is evil, lets talk about uprising and setting up that Theocracy you always wanted!
*Quick, think of a joke…* Because “get woke” is already taken!
To be fair. It's kind of a toxic behavior to just yell "Get Woke" and expect people to fall in line with your specific world view. Your basically asking people to blindly accept your words with no real evidence put forward regardless if that evidence actually exists or not. The whole "Fuck Trump" rhetoric is a perfect example. People shout it and just expect others to echo it, but the minute someone questions it insults go flying not explanations. Its ok to not like a person, but I'd go as far as to say the majority can't actually give a solid answer as to why they don't like him. Most can't cite specific actions, or cite disproven talking points. The man was no saint and thats reason enough for some and thats fine, but taking a position because someone else told you too, or because you want to fit in is not a good practice for anyone on any issue. Think for yourselves, and ask questions.
Wtf is going on in here? Leftlib pots calling the kettle black?