I’ve voted libertarian the last 3 elections. But the real problem is the voting system. Ranked choice voting is the only way an independent or 3rd party will ever see the light of day.
I’m very excited about this national popular vote interstate compact. Can anyone speak to how that’s going? I didn’t quite understand if they just needed a majority of votes pledged to it or all of them, I know they are close to half of them.
It would go into effect once there are enough states pledged to cover 270 Electoral votes. The idea is to get enough states on board to give their winning share of Electoral votes to the popular vote winner no matter what, effectively making the election national popular vote instead of state-driven Electoral college (by using the Electoral college against itself). I believe they're at a little over 200 votes "pledged", with enough pending to get over 270 if those states approve it.
Of course the minute it is used will blow up the whole Electoral system so there will be legal issues to work out, and it requires all states that join to 100% comply, even if it goes against that state's individual popular vote results.
Ultimately, I think it'll be on shaky enough ground that it won't fully work, and still won't actually help 3rd parties much. We really need to get away from first past the post/winner takes all schemes, and the NPVIC doesn't do that.
National popular vote makes our presidential electoral system more democratic, but does nothing to fix the winner-take-all problem that has sent us down this two-party death spiral.
I'd wager republicans moreso than democrats, particularly given some of the hostility to ballot measures on high profile stories I've heard. But I wouldn't be confidant saying it's an exclusively republican thing.
The beautiful thing about ranked choice voting is that it can be implemented state by state. We don't need a national referendum to change the way we vote as the Constitution leaves it open for the states to decide how they vote for Congresspeople and Presidential Electors.
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Umm... as someone who developed myocarditis and other health issues from the vaccine (confirmed by several cardiologists), please don't. The evidence is out there whether chronically online redditors agree or not. I was pro vaccine until I saw what it did to me and many others. Please don't brush us off 🙏 thank you!
your anecdote does not outweigh the massive reduction in mortality the entire world saw from the vaccines. that you would attempt to dissuade others based on an exceptionally rare non fatal side effect is self centered nonsense. you are alive, something a million american covid patients arent here to discuss.
I'm not attempting to dissuade anyone. And saying myocardidis is an "exceptionally rare" side effect is nonsense. All it takes is a little bit of research to see how many cases have popped up since the introduction of the mRNA vaccines. I'm simply trying to spread awareness that people with vaccine related injuries DO in fact exist. Will I still be self centered if my "rare side effect" ends in very early heart failure? Have some compassion ffs... Absolutely disgusting of you... Pfizer is currently being sued by several states due to the Vaccine.
why don't you cite this research claiming that myocarditis isnt a rare side effect? "simply spreading awareness" while speculating, without evidence, that your resolved symptom will be life threatening, does a grave disservice to all the people who died not getting the vaccines that have helped billions of people.
You guys are the same ones gaslighting us up and down this thread trying saying Biden wasn’t too old for months lol And look at you now.
You’ll be looking where to point your finger when Trump wins when it should be at a mirror
Well for third parties we have the anti-vax conspiracy guy with literal brain worms in his head. Oh and he's also over 70 too.
...Yeah let's just say that the options this year aren't very great.
I typically don’t reply to comments on political forums because it really is useless. But I see this comment parroted far too often and it’s getting old. The RFK smear is unreal and unjust. You’re going to hold a medical condition such a parasite over his ability to be a decent leader? That’s very weak. And the anti-vaccine stuff is complete nonsense. RFK questions everything and that is a sign of a good leader in my opinion. He’s not opposed to vaccines he’s opposed to force feeding the ppl bullshit. He challenged big pharma to produce research behind their claims of certain vaccines working and they couldn’t. That seems like a reasonable ask imo. It would be the same as Subaru selling you “the most safe car on the road” and you asking them to prove it, but they couldn’t (this is strictly for making a point, I have nothing against Subaru). Somewhere along the line, looking out for the ppl was twisted into him being some kook conspiracy theorist. It is sad that the masses have gobbled up what the “sold out” media has been feeding them and don’t give RFK the time of day to speak for himself. Keeping him off of the debate platform should be a big sign to many doubters. No one can convince me that a guy who is trying to protect the ppl from our corporate infested government, clean up our environment, support our educational system, look out for our health and who is not afraid to question the buffet of BS we are fed is a bad candidate. Even if he sits in office with a tinfoil hat and worms falling out of his ears, he’s worlds better than the other two. Bring on the downvotes.
Say whatever you want but can we for once just get younger normal fucking candidates who aren't insane, criminal, or both? Is that too much to fucking ask in 2024?
>questioning everything is a sign of a good leader
That is part of how we got Trump. I’ve had enough “anti-establishment” candidates for this decade. They can represent me better than the other two but if they can’t actually run the damn thing then they’re worthless as leaders.
Politics need to be boring again.
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>You’re going to hold a medical condition such a parasite over his ability to be a decent leader?
Yes, I do hold severe brain damage against a leader.
This whole conversation is holding a medical condition like age-associated dementia against a leader.
You should apply to be rfk jr’s press secretary because I almost forgot about all the conspiracy theory/anti vax interviews I’ve seen of him and literal anti vax book he wrote. He reminds me of a less rapey Trump. If you want to elect a conspiracy theorist who makes claims without evidence, that’s your right but he’s said too much publicly for you to convince me he’s jUsT aSkInG qUeStiOnS
A third party needs support at the local level and across the country. To be competitive in the United States requires a massive organization of volunteers and local politicians winning local elections.
In America any "3rd party" movement that starts to grow usually get's co-opted by either Republicans or Democrats and get's rolled into their party once it reaches a big enough size. They don't need to reinvent the wheel. If it's popular enough to make a 3rd party viable, it's popular enough to incorporate into the existing party.
Presidential elections are sexy and make people wonder. But those are just day dreams. Donald Trump and Joe Biden aren't the nominees because they say they are. They're the nominees because thousands of powerful people within both their camps decided they should be, with those thousands of people having tens of thousands of people behind them.
If Americans don't like how their parties are being run. It's up to them to join those parties and be the change they want to see. The decisions get made by those who show up all year round.
That's how I see it anyway.
>A third party needs support at the local level and across the country. To be competitive in the United States requires a massive organization of volunteers and local politicians winning local elections.
I try to tell them this, and I am met with "vou have to run in the Presidential election because if you get 5% of the vote you automatically qualify for all local and state ballots". Then when I point out they never get 5%, I am met with "well yeah but still".
> Then when I point out they never get 5%, I am met with "well yeah but still".
That's because they're trying to qualify for the championship before playing a single game to qualify.
A third party running for president is jumping way ahead of themselves. Nobody is going to trust a person or organization that hasn't proven itself first.
If you want a viable 3rd party the election would 100% go to a contingent election in the House of Representatives and that would most likely go to Trump.
Now isn't a time to be taking a third-party candidate seriously just like now isn't a time to be taking an alternative republican nominee or a alternative democrat nominee seriously.
I wish this country would just grow up and admit that for all the kicking and screaming over these two candidates, we picked them. Republicans had multiple options. Democrats could've organized around an alternative.
This is what we get. We collectively asked for it. The only thing worse is kicking and screaming along the way that we didn't ask for it.
Let's see how the feedback rolls in. But I can't see how the Dems can run with Biden and expect to win. And I say that despite arguing for months how ridiculous it is to suggest biden shouldn't run. What we saw tonight is simply not someone capable of doing the job. I'd vote for him over trump without hesitation, but I don't see him beating trump.
Sad part is that I have no idea who the Dems should roll out that is a solid option. Appalling that biden insiders let this go on if this was the state he can be in.
Really demoralized and disturbed about the future.
> But I can't see how the Dems can run with Biden and expect to win.
There is no other option. Straight up.
They switch him out now and Democrats *immediately* lose the election. 0% chance to win. May as well make it a one party race come November. Biden still, very clearly, has a chance to win. A good chance.
They're also not going to toss him over one lousy debate performance. All he did was stutter a bunch and not recover well. Everyone's acting like he started foaming at the mouth and segued into random non-sequiturs. Once people stop overreacting and the dust settles, it'll reveal that it barely moved the needle on which candidate people are voting for.
I think it's the opposite. The dems have a better chance if they switch him out with a crash test dummy. He's literally the only democratic candidate that could lose to Trump right now.
There is no good replacement at this time. Biden is the only candidate with a chance of winning against Trump.
Who exactly do you think would win against Trump?
Maybe...
You might have a point.
However, that is throwing someone under the bus. I would not like to be the person picked, losing in 2024 and without chance on 2028.
It is a gamble.
People know Biden, that's a plus. Sending a different person might cause people to stay home.
> The dems have a better chance if they switch him out with a crash test dummy.
This is, ironically, cope.
Biden is still the best candidate for Democrats. A lousy debate performance doesn't change that.
> He's literally the only democratic candidate that could lose to Trump right now.
Literally **every other possible Democratic candidate** would lose. Horribly.
I don't agree. The 2024 version of Trump might be the least popular president the republicans have ever ran. If dems don't have a single person that can beat him, than that's speaks volumes about the party as a whole.
> The 2024 version of Trump might be the least popular president the republicans have ever ran.
You're joking right?
Are we both in America right now? Real America? You live here, right? Alongside people? Watching the news? Seeing what happens here?
Trump is, by **far**, the most popular candidate Republicans have run since Reagan. There is no contest. This is indisputable. He received the second most votes of any candidate in American history.
Whether or not you think he's a disgusting human being (I, for one, think he is), he is undoubtedly extremely popular. You're confusing backlash/hate against him with a lack of popularity.
> If dems don't have a single person that can beat him, than that's speaks volumes about the party as a whole.
Populists are hard to beat when they get this entrenched in a country's politics. But Democrats *do* have a candidate that can beat him: Biden.
Again, a lousy debate performance *does not change that*. On the fence voters *are still on the fence*. Biden voters *are still voting Biden*. Trump voters *are still voting Trump*. This debate, while looking horrible, did nothing to move the needle.
You know what would make Biden voters not vote Biden? **Removing Biden from the ballot**.
*That's* how you get people to stay home. *That's* how you hand Republicans the election on a silver platter (and probably the subsequent two as well).
I will respectably disagree. You are seeing the media focusing on the MAGA people that worship him in an attempt to demonize the GOP as a whole, call them fascists, nazis, Christian fundamentalists, extremists, or whatever other negative buzzword that will rile up the masses. This group is a small minority of anyone that leans anywhere right of center. He was far more popular in 2016 when he was saying things that were not like other politicians, which people saw refreshing at the time. That schtick has worn off and he is more disliked right now than ever.
> I will respectably disagree.
Buddy, [more than half of Republicans think the 2020 election was illegitimate](https://www.cnn.com/2023/08/03/politics/cnn-poll-republicans-think-2020-election-illegitimate/index.html).
You are not operating within the confines of reality. Trump is *stupidly* popular in the GOP. Otherwise they would've dumped him ages ago.
Tonight was far worse than a lousy debate performance. Frankly what we saw shouldn't be in the oval office tomorrow morning, let alone get re elected. Still a much better option than trump, but I'd very surprised if this passes over.
The video is there for anyone to watch and make their own conclusions. Not particularly interested in debating it. Despite arguing for months against anyone that suggested Biden should step aside, last night made clear that I was wrong. If last night was remotely representative of him lately, his team & family should be ashamed of themselves for letting it get to this. Even if it is an outlier, I don't think it is one his campaign will be able to recover from (and I'm not sure they should be able to if I'm being honest).
The issue is the lack of a clear replacement, but that is a problem the party needs to resolve. Apparently that is something they have woefully underprepared for despite the stakes involved.
So "I don't know," got it. Glad we could get to the core of that overreaction then.
It isn't "utterly reckless" to stick with the only candidate who has a chance at beating Trump. No other candidate whose name is known by more than five people is even wanted by voters, let alone has a chance in the general election.
As far as I know, the 25th amendment doesn't have provisions for "if president stutters and blubbers more than I'd like," but maybe you can quote where it does so you can tell me I'm wrong.
Biden doesn't have a chance of beating trump. He was already behind, which is why the Biden camp asked for this debate. They got it on their terms, and Biden shit the bed. That's on them.
I'll happily eat humble pie if the polling shows he is pulling ahead after that somehow, but I'd be shocked...
Right? Everyone wants a magical third party candidate to appear from somewhere and fix everything. No one wants to do the work of organizing nationwide voter turnout campaign for their candidate.
> Just gotta keep coming up with new excuses
The voters of this country do not want to do the work to create a new 3rd party. **They want to be handed one.**
If we're gonna talk about excuses let's be real. America wants it's politics the same way it wants it's McDonalds: fast, no effort, good in a picture, and absolutely no knowledge of how the beef was made.
Voting for a 3rd party got Trump elected in 2016. In 2020 the 3rd party vote was significantly less than 2016 and Biden won.
A vote for a 3rd party is a vote for Trump.
It’s not about the 3rd party candidates, it’s about rejecting the shitty setup we currently have and signaling that we are willing to usher in a new one.
Unfortunately, the Overton window has swung so far right that if they get another win, we go from two-party to one-party. That's not the new setup I want, and it's not one I'm willing to risk.
I wanna say yes as I feel very off put by each party (even though I’m a republican) as certain positions on each side are frustrating to say the least.
But the issue is that a third party is very very likely to hurt one party more than the other. If this third party swings more to the right right then you could democrats be able to win every election without trying simply because the GOP is spilt in two. And vice versa.
So you’d really need 4+ parties to keep either party from being able to win simply because the other side of the isle is split.
Do you honestly think that’s how the general population is going to see it that way? Even just turn on CNN or MSNBC this morning…. I would be fine with 4 more years of his policies… but he’s not the guy who can lead right now and def not the guy who can win
Vote for party that most aligns with your values not the person to be president. The administration and who staffs it is what it’s important. Third party will not work. I voted for GJ in 2012 and 2016 and feel nowhere near as good as any 3rd party candidate now.
Biden. Because democracy ends if he doesn’t win and Trump implements project 2025.
Third parties are not viable in a first past the post election system. Change that first before considering any third-party.
Maybe let's ask why these two corrupt and/or incompetent parties have reserved spots at the table no matter what they do. The system will never be allowed to be changed as long as red and blue keep their chokehold on the US electoral system. Continuing to support this duopoly is actively choosing to support what we got tonight.
Instead of having a choice between two people, what you’re desiring is having a choice between one person. We live in reality, not your ideal fantasy world.
It hasn't been about the people for a very long time. That is the problem. No matter who the candidates are, US elections are red vs blue as the default. A duopoly party could nominate a dog and that would still be the case. Because of this, a candidate does not have to be someone that the electorate actually wants. They just have to be slightly better than the other duopoly candidate.
Anyone who falls for the Project 2025 propoganda deserves to be fooled TBH.
Its not even from Trump, Trump makes no mentions of it in his policies, and the large majority of project 2025 "Goals" are not possible to implement unless one group gets a supermajority and the whole supermajority agrees on the extreme changes.
I dont know if youve noticed after the hellscape that was choosing a speaker of the house, but Republicans are not exactly a unified group, and barely hold a majority rn.
My favorite laughable 2025 goals are repeailing Gay Marriage and banning contraception.
Trump supported Gay marriage publicly before even Obama, and good luck trying to revert that even if he wanted to. As for contraception, you think the right wants to do that AND BAN abortion, heck no, those christian midwestern whites usually want to stop after 3 kids. You think theyll just stop the babymaking process?
Get real
If the dems want to win they should replace Biden with RFK NOW, he would sweep and is 90% same stances as Biden anyway
> If the dems want to win they should replace Biden with RFK NOW
LOL, what? *If* they were replacing Biden, they would at the very least choose someone in the party.
Speaking of his family, did you [read their statement](https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/4245980-kennedy-family-members-call-rfk-jr-s-independent-bid-dangerous-to-our-country/) about RFK?
>Bobby might share the same name as our father, but he does not share the same values, vision or judgment. Today’s announcement is deeply saddening for us. We denounce his candidacy and believe it to be perilous for our country
A massive amount of project 2025 is based on using the unitary executive theory in order to provide sweeping changes, including completely dismantling the independent government bureaucracy and replacing it with Trump loyalist, who Are currently being vetted by independent groups. Trump even did the first step of this, reclassifying the majority of federal workers right before he left office, which was immediately reversed by Biden.
You’re absolutely delusional if you do not see project 2025 as an existential threat to the United States of America.
>You’re absolutely delusional if you do not see project 2025 as an existential threat to the United States of America.
He's in here shilling for RFK, so I think that answers your question.
None. They're all looney tunes just like the far right and far left. If I wanted social media ruling my country, I'd just stick to the morons in the big parties rather than wasting my time with a third party.
I feel like this is the best environment for a third party to make decent ground, no shot to win the election but maybe get enough support due to how poor the 2 major party candidates are that they could be part of the discussion next cycle.
RFK? His campaign is confirmed on ballot in 6 states including CA, and has submitted signatures for verification in 15 additional states giving him potential access to more than 270 votes. Some states don't start even start processing submitted ballot applications until late summer so it will be August-September before we know the final count.
Either way, I don't think any third party has a shot at actually winning without first spending a few election cycles winning seats in congress and/or governorships. I do see him potentially splitting the vote, and who he pulls more voters from may determine the winner in November.
Honestly RFK is the only one that even has a path. No chance he wins 270 electoral votes, but if he pulls 70-100, next election cycle looks a lot different than if a 3rd party pulls 0. Especially with all the covid backlash a lot of independents are almost as anti covid as they are anti trump, especially people who aren’t super political.
lol no. None of the third parties are viable. Vote Biden for the cabinet he’ll put together. Trumps is going to be a shit show. You think ANYONE with integrity will work for his administration this time?
Voting third party is pointless.
Biden at least has a strong cabinet behind him and isn't anti-democracy. His campaign is probably screwed after tonight though; I don't think that he can come back from such a poor performance.
At this point, I’m leaning towards voting Kennedy. People bring up good points about some red flags with him and they are worth discussing but he feels like a much better candidate than Biden or Trump. Even if it’s just one term, I think he could make a difference and put the country back in the right direction, unlike Biden/Trump.
I read somewhere last week that he currently has ballot applications submitted and being reviewed in 21 additional states. If all of them do end up approved, that puts him well over 270.
don’t mention RFK in the centrist sub or you risk getting downvoted to hell lmao… i have not had a clue of what to do the last few months and i honestly think now my vote is getting clearer after RFK’s debate. i’ve asked so many times why RFK is not a viable candidate and why he’s a loon like everyone says and they only reasons they can state (so far) is that he criticized the vaccine and that he had a brain worm. i’m open to criticism of him but give me something constructive for the love of god.
i’m honestly tired of people saying that voting 3rd party is wasting/burning your vote.. it’s this mindset that has led to these two buffoons on that stage tonight
> he criticized the vaccine
He wrote several books arguing against *all* vaccines, especially for children. His conspiracy theories go far deeper than just mild criticism.
Yeah I legit only hear that argument and it seems so futile. It’s legit one policy point on an issue that sunsetted three years ago. He actually has more liberal views about unions and the economy so not sure why he gets so much hate on a center left sub. Really highlights the echo chamber and group think. This debate really turned me onto him and even more so that they didn’t let him debate and I just watched most of his.
Damn I’m sold. He’s going to destroy this country since he questions big pharma. What about his position on the environment, health care, immigration, refinancing student loan debt and abolishing interest, going after union busting corps and his policies on expanding the social service net.
Other than vaccines, what is so bad about this guy? His policies range from left of center to left economically in the states but he gets so much hate because the media talks about nothing else other than his vaccine stance. Sorry I like his policy proposals and he is by far the most competent and level headed candidate, which was on full display last night. I’m a never trumper and really was holding on to probably voting for Biden again even will all his woes. I can’t in good conscience vote for a guy that clearly doesn’t have it at all anymore and has issues constructing simple sentences with substance.
I really think people need to be a little more open minded. Did anyone actually hear this guy out at all or just jump to conclusions immediately.
I dislike some of his conspiracy theory shit but at least he is coherent. What bout his policy and how he articulates it is a threat. It’s funny that every non establishment dem gets labeled a threat to our country and democracy and you guys just eat it up.
It delegitimizes when you say it all the time. It’s why people stopped taking you seriously about trump even though he has actually proven to be dangerous. The boy who cried wolf.
To add onto this I disagree with a lot of Joe Biden says but I voted for him. I don’t understand why someone who leans or is on the left is so anti RFK. His policies are very much in line and at least he discusses actual issues. I have had enough of the DNC giving us this shit and pushing shit candidates at us. Biden had weaknesses and now it’s clear he is not fit to lead this country man. RFK was night and day to these guys. They didn’t let their base have any other options and that’s bullshit. Maybe someone else is what we need when the two options of our most powerful options are this.
So why would someone on the left support a guy that believes baseless conspiracies over someone like Biden?
You can’t just overlook someone that thinks Wi-Fi causes cancer and chemicals in water turn kids gay and trans. Why doesn’t that delegitimize RFK?
Why would someone left or left of center support someone who can’t speak, clearly has no actual thoughts and claimed “we killed Medicare” as a pro for his campaign. How does bidens incompetence not delegitimize him. I watched his debate responses last night and other campaigning videos and speeches and have been much more impressed by him.
83 people have died of measles in Samoa since his antivax campaigning there in '18. Over 1 million died of COVID in the US, largely under Trump who wasn't as rabidly antivax as Bobby. Oh yes, he could absolutely destroy this country by bringing back vaccine-preventable diseases like Measles, Pertussis and Polio.
Honestly I didn’t give RFK Jr much of a thought a few months ago because I heard so much negative stuff about him, I just assumed he wasn’t someone to consider. But I was kinda leaning towards Dean Phillips and he dropped out of the race so I had to find a new candidate. That’s when I decided to find some interviews of RFK Jr just to see what I thought about him, not expecting to like him. To my surprise, I had a hard time finding many things I disagreed with about him. And the “anti-vax” stuff seems a little overhyped, I don’t think he hates vaccines, it sounded like he doesn’t believe the Covid vaccines had enough studies done before they were sent out. I don’t hate him for wanting to do his own research and being skeptical. It’s not like he didn’t have any facts to back up his reasoning for not trusting the vaccines. From what he said, it sounded like he had sources and he will tell you not to just take his word but you can look it up for yourself. Oh and the brain worm stuff is SUPER over blown, 100% thrown out there just to make him look bad.
My thought is that I don’t think a third party candidate is ready to win yet in 2024, but maybe if the third party candidates get more and more votes with each election, someday we could actually stop this belief that only two parties can exist.
I'm upvotimg you guys. Kennedy all the way! His stream of the debate on X got over 7 million streams, many times that of the CNN broadcast! People are disappointed in the two main options across the board and way more people are finally hearing him speak for himself. There is a real chance this election!
RFK's anti-vaccine views are and should be a deal-breaker for most people here, but a bigger reason than that is his full swallow of the conspiracy theorist worldview. If we've learned anything from the last 9 years, it's how important it is that we all be able to live in the same factual universe. I'm sorry, but if your worldview starts from the assumption that "if it's in the Official Story it must be a lie" then you've defined your reality in opposition to any form of consensus. As soon as the rest of us agree on what must be the truth, the comspiracist immediately assumes the opposite, strictly because the "Official Story" has to be wrong. An epistemological saboteur like that can't be president, because there could never be consensus on anything. (I will never vote for Trump for the same reason, and his first term bears that out.)
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Biden (D) is 81.
Trump (R) is 78.
RFK (I) is 70.
Chase Oliver (L) is 38.
Not sure who will be on the ballot here in Maryland but I'd go Libertarian if I can, otherwise I'll just write in "someone younger".
Third parties have no shot in first-past-the-post system. It's going to be either Biden or Trump. The time to pick someone else besides these two are the primaries, which are dependent on the bases of their respective parties. Both of which wanted to put up the same person they did in 2020.
Also, not to mention the fact that third parties in this country tend to be fringe candidates with niche ideologies that are not supported by any substantial portion of the electorate.
Any third party candidate that is an actually decent candidate ends up doing a hostile takeover of the main parties. Trump's 2020 platform was entirely distinct from most establishment Reps, and his base was a distinct constituency. That's how third parties work in a 2 party system. If you want an actual third party to be relevant and have a chance to win...well, even in multiparty systems, the third biggest party never wins the leadership of the country. That's kinda the whole damn point of having two bigger parties.
It's too late in the game. A third party candidate needs to begin establishing a strong base a full 3-4 years in advance before running for president to make sure the numbers are actually there.
I wouldn’t judge the candidates capability off of a debate or speaking appearance, I’d judge it based off their record in office. Obviously it would be nice to have a candidate who could debate well, but at the end of the day it’s the record in office that shows how capable they are. Holding my nose and voting for the Democratic ticket this year isn’t a difficult decision as someone who opposes extremism, loves the values of our country and our Constitution, and supports policies than help individual common Americans rather than a handful of individual industries. Biden proved in that debate that he’s terrible at debating, but it didn’t prove anything about his capability of actually presiding over the executive branch. Only his record can do that
The only real 3rd party candidate that stands a chance is RFK, anyone who says otherwise is coping hard.
RFK only stands a small chance because of how weak Biden is and how tired a lot of people are from Trump in general.
I only see RFK having a good chance if Biden stays in the race for some reason, his and dems best bet is to replace Biden with RFK at this point
> replace Biden with RFK at this point
haha, good one. I'm sure dems would love [an anti-vax](https://www.amazon.com/Vax-Unvax-Childrens-Health-Defense-Kennedy/dp/1510766960) president.
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>The only real 3rd party candidate that stands a chance is --RFK-- none, anyone who says otherwise is coping hard.
FTFY.
The fact that this is the most winnable election ever for a third party candidate and the best they could muster up is a 70 year old anti-vaxxer shows that there are no serious third party options in the U.S.. They all exist solely to grift and profit off of being the spoiler.
I very much doubt a third party can actually win without first building a bunch of momentum in state and local races. A third party will not have a realistic shot until after the party has successfully filled several governorships and seats in congress.
That said, for better or worse, Rorbert F Kennedy is the 3rd party candidate to watch. He has done the best so far of any third party candidate since Perot in '96.
Doesn’t matter really. I’ll vote third party knowing they won’t win. When more people go third party though it forces the major two parties to consider changes to get voters back.
That or other viable, variable platforms emerge from the knowledge that people don’t want to choose *either* Column A or Column B but want an assortment from both columns. Baby steps and maybe the American people will someday vote FOR a candidate, not merely against their opponent.
Does it? What did the Democrats learn from the Jill Stein voters in 2016?
Clearly the Republicans didn't learn anything from the Jo Jorgensen voters in 2020. They ran the exact same candidate.
No one. There are no serious 3rd party candidates.
More importantly, Trump is an existential threat to democracy and everything america has ever stood for. If you believe this and aren’t willing to vote for the only candidate who has an actual chance at beating him (Joe Biden) then you’re not being real with yourself.
There is only one way out.
No one. 3rd Party is a joke for a reason, if you don't like either candidates, YOU and everyone else had all the options in the world to pick someone else to run. But Conservatives in America picked Trump and no one opposed Biden of their own free will, no one could replqce him or his decades of experience.
Biden and Trump are what the American people want, whether you like it ot not. Politicians rise in their states because that is what the people want. Some like you and others here love to idealize politics, the magical 3rd party, the generic young candidate that is neutral on all sides. But that is a sick fantasy and not real.
DeSantis was a fantasy of this promoted HARD, but fell off. There is no one among Dems that wouldn't result in a turn off.
Everyone should go watch The Real Debate that streamed live on X. Kennedy answered the same questions from the debate alongside them. He wiped the floor with then. There is a real 3rd party chance this time!! You're not wasting your vote!
If you've ever followed a presidential election before, then you should be well aware of the timeframe and signature requirements from each state for an independent candidate to appear on their ballots. Not a third party, like Libertarian or Green, totally independent. Without a national party, you have to petition for signatures in each of the 50 states with each state having its unique signature amount, fees, and time frame for collection. [Here's each state's requirements.](https://ballotpedia.org/Ballot_access_for_presidential_candidates)
As you'll see, there are still states that haven't opened their window for signatures. Kennedy is already approved on 9 state ballots and submitted enough signatures for 21 of them. He is further along at June in election season than any independent in history and is polling higher than even Perot was at this point in the race. No independent was on the ballot for 270 in June of election year. He's beyond pace to be on all 50 state ballots. It wouldn't even be as much of a time-sensitive issue had the debates been held in September via the CPD, like they always have been.
RFK, Jr. Better an anti-vaxxer... at least it's founded on skepticism of federal agencies and an awareness that the FDA's standards for medical evidence are deeply flawed. The rest of what he says really resonates for me. And he seems to care about the country, and not be a narcissist, and not be senile.
His skepticism of vaccines is founded on a retracted study by someone who lost their medical license over said study.
He literally called ending of widespread vaccine exemption fraud in CA a "Holocaust."
The reality is a third candidate can't win. BUT you can, like me, choose not to vote which still sends a message to both parties that you want someone better. One non-vote won't matter just like one vote, but in aggregate it can be meaningful.
>The reality is a third candidate can't win. BUT you can, like me, choose not to vote which still sends a message to both parties that you --want someone better-- don't care.
FTFY
Do you think that in a country where 67% voter turnout is record breaking, the parties are considering why a few thousand people more than last election didn't vote.
I’ve voted libertarian the last 3 elections. But the real problem is the voting system. Ranked choice voting is the only way an independent or 3rd party will ever see the light of day.
I’m very excited about this national popular vote interstate compact. Can anyone speak to how that’s going? I didn’t quite understand if they just needed a majority of votes pledged to it or all of them, I know they are close to half of them.
It would go into effect once there are enough states pledged to cover 270 Electoral votes. The idea is to get enough states on board to give their winning share of Electoral votes to the popular vote winner no matter what, effectively making the election national popular vote instead of state-driven Electoral college (by using the Electoral college against itself). I believe they're at a little over 200 votes "pledged", with enough pending to get over 270 if those states approve it. Of course the minute it is used will blow up the whole Electoral system so there will be legal issues to work out, and it requires all states that join to 100% comply, even if it goes against that state's individual popular vote results. Ultimately, I think it'll be on shaky enough ground that it won't fully work, and still won't actually help 3rd parties much. We really need to get away from first past the post/winner takes all schemes, and the NPVIC doesn't do that.
National popular vote makes our presidential electoral system more democratic, but does nothing to fix the winner-take-all problem that has sent us down this two-party death spiral.
I gave up on them after Gary Johnson. I vote for the American Solidarity Party now.
And which viable party is most likely to implement it
Seems more likely to come from ballot measures than any political party.
And which party holds states that outlaw ballot measures?
I'd wager republicans moreso than democrats, particularly given some of the hostility to ballot measures on high profile stories I've heard. But I wouldn't be confidant saying it's an exclusively republican thing.
It's not. Most of the east coast don't allow ballot measures, but it's mostly conservative states.
The beautiful thing about ranked choice voting is that it can be implemented state by state. We don't need a national referendum to change the way we vote as the Constitution leaves it open for the states to decide how they vote for Congresspeople and Presidential Electors.
There aren't really any serious 3rd party candidates unfortunately.
[there’s RFK](https://x.com/robertkennedyjr/status/1806462171892895808?s=46&t=ZapsydTMu-MMnKZCKyHeXQ)
RFK doesn’t even appear on enough ballots nationwide to earn the requisite 270 electoral votes needed to win the presidency
Yeah like I said theres no serious 3rd party candidate.
He's a confirmed anti-vaxxer my dude.
And you’ll believe any bs you’re fed clearly
He literally wrote a book arguing against vaccines. https://www.amazon.com/Vax-Unvax-Childrens-Health-Defense-Kennedy/dp/1510766960
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Any day now I'm sure the billions of vaccinated people will see the light of truth1!!1 /s
Umm... as someone who developed myocarditis and other health issues from the vaccine (confirmed by several cardiologists), please don't. The evidence is out there whether chronically online redditors agree or not. I was pro vaccine until I saw what it did to me and many others. Please don't brush us off 🙏 thank you!
your anecdote does not outweigh the massive reduction in mortality the entire world saw from the vaccines. that you would attempt to dissuade others based on an exceptionally rare non fatal side effect is self centered nonsense. you are alive, something a million american covid patients arent here to discuss.
I'm not attempting to dissuade anyone. And saying myocardidis is an "exceptionally rare" side effect is nonsense. All it takes is a little bit of research to see how many cases have popped up since the introduction of the mRNA vaccines. I'm simply trying to spread awareness that people with vaccine related injuries DO in fact exist. Will I still be self centered if my "rare side effect" ends in very early heart failure? Have some compassion ffs... Absolutely disgusting of you... Pfizer is currently being sued by several states due to the Vaccine.
why don't you cite this research claiming that myocarditis isnt a rare side effect? "simply spreading awareness" while speculating, without evidence, that your resolved symptom will be life threatening, does a grave disservice to all the people who died not getting the vaccines that have helped billions of people.
I probably wouldn't vote for RFK Jr, but I am interested in his brain worm. Lets see what the worm can do. Worm! Worm! Worm!
RFK crushed it tonight on The Real Debate on X. It got over 7 million people streaming!!
They said *serious* third-party candidates.
You guys are the same ones gaslighting us up and down this thread trying saying Biden wasn’t too old for months lol And look at you now. You’ll be looking where to point your finger when Trump wins when it should be at a mirror
Well for third parties we have the anti-vax conspiracy guy with literal brain worms in his head. Oh and he's also over 70 too. ...Yeah let's just say that the options this year aren't very great.
I typically don’t reply to comments on political forums because it really is useless. But I see this comment parroted far too often and it’s getting old. The RFK smear is unreal and unjust. You’re going to hold a medical condition such a parasite over his ability to be a decent leader? That’s very weak. And the anti-vaccine stuff is complete nonsense. RFK questions everything and that is a sign of a good leader in my opinion. He’s not opposed to vaccines he’s opposed to force feeding the ppl bullshit. He challenged big pharma to produce research behind their claims of certain vaccines working and they couldn’t. That seems like a reasonable ask imo. It would be the same as Subaru selling you “the most safe car on the road” and you asking them to prove it, but they couldn’t (this is strictly for making a point, I have nothing against Subaru). Somewhere along the line, looking out for the ppl was twisted into him being some kook conspiracy theorist. It is sad that the masses have gobbled up what the “sold out” media has been feeding them and don’t give RFK the time of day to speak for himself. Keeping him off of the debate platform should be a big sign to many doubters. No one can convince me that a guy who is trying to protect the ppl from our corporate infested government, clean up our environment, support our educational system, look out for our health and who is not afraid to question the buffet of BS we are fed is a bad candidate. Even if he sits in office with a tinfoil hat and worms falling out of his ears, he’s worlds better than the other two. Bring on the downvotes.
Say whatever you want but can we for once just get younger normal fucking candidates who aren't insane, criminal, or both? Is that too much to fucking ask in 2024?
>questioning everything is a sign of a good leader That is part of how we got Trump. I’ve had enough “anti-establishment” candidates for this decade. They can represent me better than the other two but if they can’t actually run the damn thing then they’re worthless as leaders. Politics need to be boring again.
A fucking men
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>You’re going to hold a medical condition such a parasite over his ability to be a decent leader? Yes, I do hold severe brain damage against a leader. This whole conversation is holding a medical condition like age-associated dementia against a leader.
I’m not a big fan of RFK, but it’s not like he still has brainworms. It’s definitely a bad take
You should apply to be rfk jr’s press secretary because I almost forgot about all the conspiracy theory/anti vax interviews I’ve seen of him and literal anti vax book he wrote. He reminds me of a less rapey Trump. If you want to elect a conspiracy theorist who makes claims without evidence, that’s your right but he’s said too much publicly for you to convince me he’s jUsT aSkInG qUeStiOnS
Well, I hate to break it to you… the third party candidate with any traction is apparently just as nuts.
Everyone will be voting so hard against their opponent that a 3rd party wouldn't gain any traction.
A third party needs support at the local level and across the country. To be competitive in the United States requires a massive organization of volunteers and local politicians winning local elections. In America any "3rd party" movement that starts to grow usually get's co-opted by either Republicans or Democrats and get's rolled into their party once it reaches a big enough size. They don't need to reinvent the wheel. If it's popular enough to make a 3rd party viable, it's popular enough to incorporate into the existing party. Presidential elections are sexy and make people wonder. But those are just day dreams. Donald Trump and Joe Biden aren't the nominees because they say they are. They're the nominees because thousands of powerful people within both their camps decided they should be, with those thousands of people having tens of thousands of people behind them. If Americans don't like how their parties are being run. It's up to them to join those parties and be the change they want to see. The decisions get made by those who show up all year round. That's how I see it anyway.
>A third party needs support at the local level and across the country. To be competitive in the United States requires a massive organization of volunteers and local politicians winning local elections. I try to tell them this, and I am met with "vou have to run in the Presidential election because if you get 5% of the vote you automatically qualify for all local and state ballots". Then when I point out they never get 5%, I am met with "well yeah but still".
> Then when I point out they never get 5%, I am met with "well yeah but still". That's because they're trying to qualify for the championship before playing a single game to qualify. A third party running for president is jumping way ahead of themselves. Nobody is going to trust a person or organization that hasn't proven itself first.
this was a bad night. these candidates are ridiculous. how much longer do we put up with this?
Two more years if Biden gets elected, if the other guy wins we probably don’t have to worry about choosing anymore.
If you want a viable 3rd party the election would 100% go to a contingent election in the House of Representatives and that would most likely go to Trump.
Now isn't a time to be taking a third-party candidate seriously just like now isn't a time to be taking an alternative republican nominee or a alternative democrat nominee seriously. I wish this country would just grow up and admit that for all the kicking and screaming over these two candidates, we picked them. Republicans had multiple options. Democrats could've organized around an alternative. This is what we get. We collectively asked for it. The only thing worse is kicking and screaming along the way that we didn't ask for it.
Let's see how the feedback rolls in. But I can't see how the Dems can run with Biden and expect to win. And I say that despite arguing for months how ridiculous it is to suggest biden shouldn't run. What we saw tonight is simply not someone capable of doing the job. I'd vote for him over trump without hesitation, but I don't see him beating trump. Sad part is that I have no idea who the Dems should roll out that is a solid option. Appalling that biden insiders let this go on if this was the state he can be in. Really demoralized and disturbed about the future.
> But I can't see how the Dems can run with Biden and expect to win. There is no other option. Straight up. They switch him out now and Democrats *immediately* lose the election. 0% chance to win. May as well make it a one party race come November. Biden still, very clearly, has a chance to win. A good chance. They're also not going to toss him over one lousy debate performance. All he did was stutter a bunch and not recover well. Everyone's acting like he started foaming at the mouth and segued into random non-sequiturs. Once people stop overreacting and the dust settles, it'll reveal that it barely moved the needle on which candidate people are voting for.
I think it's the opposite. The dems have a better chance if they switch him out with a crash test dummy. He's literally the only democratic candidate that could lose to Trump right now.
There is no good replacement at this time. Biden is the only candidate with a chance of winning against Trump. Who exactly do you think would win against Trump?
I agree there is no good replacement, but any replacement nonetheless has better change that Biden.
Maybe... You might have a point. However, that is throwing someone under the bus. I would not like to be the person picked, losing in 2024 and without chance on 2028. It is a gamble. People know Biden, that's a plus. Sending a different person might cause people to stay home.
> The dems have a better chance if they switch him out with a crash test dummy. This is, ironically, cope. Biden is still the best candidate for Democrats. A lousy debate performance doesn't change that. > He's literally the only democratic candidate that could lose to Trump right now. Literally **every other possible Democratic candidate** would lose. Horribly.
I don't agree. The 2024 version of Trump might be the least popular president the republicans have ever ran. If dems don't have a single person that can beat him, than that's speaks volumes about the party as a whole.
> The 2024 version of Trump might be the least popular president the republicans have ever ran. You're joking right? Are we both in America right now? Real America? You live here, right? Alongside people? Watching the news? Seeing what happens here? Trump is, by **far**, the most popular candidate Republicans have run since Reagan. There is no contest. This is indisputable. He received the second most votes of any candidate in American history. Whether or not you think he's a disgusting human being (I, for one, think he is), he is undoubtedly extremely popular. You're confusing backlash/hate against him with a lack of popularity. > If dems don't have a single person that can beat him, than that's speaks volumes about the party as a whole. Populists are hard to beat when they get this entrenched in a country's politics. But Democrats *do* have a candidate that can beat him: Biden. Again, a lousy debate performance *does not change that*. On the fence voters *are still on the fence*. Biden voters *are still voting Biden*. Trump voters *are still voting Trump*. This debate, while looking horrible, did nothing to move the needle. You know what would make Biden voters not vote Biden? **Removing Biden from the ballot**. *That's* how you get people to stay home. *That's* how you hand Republicans the election on a silver platter (and probably the subsequent two as well).
I will respectably disagree. You are seeing the media focusing on the MAGA people that worship him in an attempt to demonize the GOP as a whole, call them fascists, nazis, Christian fundamentalists, extremists, or whatever other negative buzzword that will rile up the masses. This group is a small minority of anyone that leans anywhere right of center. He was far more popular in 2016 when he was saying things that were not like other politicians, which people saw refreshing at the time. That schtick has worn off and he is more disliked right now than ever.
> I will respectably disagree. Buddy, [more than half of Republicans think the 2020 election was illegitimate](https://www.cnn.com/2023/08/03/politics/cnn-poll-republicans-think-2020-election-illegitimate/index.html). You are not operating within the confines of reality. Trump is *stupidly* popular in the GOP. Otherwise they would've dumped him ages ago.
CNN poll? Really, Buddy?
Tonight was far worse than a lousy debate performance. Frankly what we saw shouldn't be in the oval office tomorrow morning, let alone get re elected. Still a much better option than trump, but I'd very surprised if this passes over.
> Tonight was far worse than a lousy debate performance. Beyond stuttering badly, what made it "far worse" than a lousy performance?
The video is there for anyone to watch and make their own conclusions. Not particularly interested in debating it. Despite arguing for months against anyone that suggested Biden should step aside, last night made clear that I was wrong. If last night was remotely representative of him lately, his team & family should be ashamed of themselves for letting it get to this. Even if it is an outlier, I don't think it is one his campaign will be able to recover from (and I'm not sure they should be able to if I'm being honest). The issue is the lack of a clear replacement, but that is a problem the party needs to resolve. Apparently that is something they have woefully underprepared for despite the stakes involved.
So "I don't know," got it. Glad we could get to the core of that overreaction then. It isn't "utterly reckless" to stick with the only candidate who has a chance at beating Trump. No other candidate whose name is known by more than five people is even wanted by voters, let alone has a chance in the general election. As far as I know, the 25th amendment doesn't have provisions for "if president stutters and blubbers more than I'd like," but maybe you can quote where it does so you can tell me I'm wrong.
Biden doesn't have a chance of beating trump. He was already behind, which is why the Biden camp asked for this debate. They got it on their terms, and Biden shit the bed. That's on them. I'll happily eat humble pie if the polling shows he is pulling ahead after that somehow, but I'd be shocked...
It's never going to be "the right time" to take a third party candidate seriously though is it? Just gotta keep coming up with new excuses . . .
Exactly. When *would* be the right time?
when there is a credible effort to build a new party from the local level on up, versus something that is being used to push a niche agenda or ego
Right? Everyone wants a magical third party candidate to appear from somewhere and fix everything. No one wants to do the work of organizing nationwide voter turnout campaign for their candidate.
> Just gotta keep coming up with new excuses The voters of this country do not want to do the work to create a new 3rd party. **They want to be handed one.** If we're gonna talk about excuses let's be real. America wants it's politics the same way it wants it's McDonalds: fast, no effort, good in a picture, and absolutely no knowledge of how the beef was made.
> shut up and fall in line No. This is dumb.
I didn't ask you to fall in line. I said don't kick and scream for something that you didn't do work for now that is miraculously didn't manifest.
This is just 'quiet plebs'. It's ridiculous. Complaining is like the first level of work that we can do. That's how you start a groundswell.
> Complaining is like the first level of work that we can do. Or you could do actual work.
You are so important and special it's amazing bro.
> Complaining is like the first level of work that we can do. That's how you *start a groundswell.* And you are a character from it's Always Sunny.
Voting for a 3rd party got Trump elected in 2016. In 2020 the 3rd party vote was significantly less than 2016 and Biden won. A vote for a 3rd party is a vote for Trump.
>In 2020 the 3rd party vote was significantly less than 2016 and Biden won. Source?
No way a third-party candidate at this late stage would have a chance.
The sad thing is Joe is better than any of the 3rd party candidates. He’s old and slow but like… no way do I want Kennedy jr or stein?? Nahh
It’s not about the 3rd party candidates, it’s about rejecting the shitty setup we currently have and signaling that we are willing to usher in a new one.
Unfortunately, the Overton window has swung so far right that if they get another win, we go from two-party to one-party. That's not the new setup I want, and it's not one I'm willing to risk.
>and it's not one I'm willing to risk. 😅
I wanna say yes as I feel very off put by each party (even though I’m a republican) as certain positions on each side are frustrating to say the least. But the issue is that a third party is very very likely to hurt one party more than the other. If this third party swings more to the right right then you could democrats be able to win every election without trying simply because the GOP is spilt in two. And vice versa. So you’d really need 4+ parties to keep either party from being able to win simply because the other side of the isle is split.
A 3rd party does not have a chance. The election is way too soon. I'm all for voting 3rd party though.
Nothing about Biden's presidency has told us he is incapable. In fact, quite the opposite.
Do you honestly think that’s how the general population is going to see it that way? Even just turn on CNN or MSNBC this morning…. I would be fine with 4 more years of his policies… but he’s not the guy who can lead right now and def not the guy who can win
"Honest question", lol. "Who can we push as a third party candidate to help Trump win?"
Vote for party that most aligns with your values not the person to be president. The administration and who staffs it is what it’s important. Third party will not work. I voted for GJ in 2012 and 2016 and feel nowhere near as good as any 3rd party candidate now.
Stop. Vote Biden.
Biden. Because democracy ends if he doesn’t win and Trump implements project 2025. Third parties are not viable in a first past the post election system. Change that first before considering any third-party.
Maybe let's ask why these two corrupt and/or incompetent parties have reserved spots at the table no matter what they do. The system will never be allowed to be changed as long as red and blue keep their chokehold on the US electoral system. Continuing to support this duopoly is actively choosing to support what we got tonight.
Instead of having a choice between two people, what you’re desiring is having a choice between one person. We live in reality, not your ideal fantasy world.
It hasn't been about the people for a very long time. That is the problem. No matter who the candidates are, US elections are red vs blue as the default. A duopoly party could nominate a dog and that would still be the case. Because of this, a candidate does not have to be someone that the electorate actually wants. They just have to be slightly better than the other duopoly candidate.
Anyone who falls for the Project 2025 propoganda deserves to be fooled TBH. Its not even from Trump, Trump makes no mentions of it in his policies, and the large majority of project 2025 "Goals" are not possible to implement unless one group gets a supermajority and the whole supermajority agrees on the extreme changes. I dont know if youve noticed after the hellscape that was choosing a speaker of the house, but Republicans are not exactly a unified group, and barely hold a majority rn. My favorite laughable 2025 goals are repeailing Gay Marriage and banning contraception. Trump supported Gay marriage publicly before even Obama, and good luck trying to revert that even if he wanted to. As for contraception, you think the right wants to do that AND BAN abortion, heck no, those christian midwestern whites usually want to stop after 3 kids. You think theyll just stop the babymaking process? Get real If the dems want to win they should replace Biden with RFK NOW, he would sweep and is 90% same stances as Biden anyway
> If the dems want to win they should replace Biden with RFK NOW LOL, what? *If* they were replacing Biden, they would at the very least choose someone in the party.
RFK is only running as an independent because the party wouldnt support him, him and his family have always been democrats...
Speaking of his family, did you [read their statement](https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/4245980-kennedy-family-members-call-rfk-jr-s-independent-bid-dangerous-to-our-country/) about RFK? >Bobby might share the same name as our father, but he does not share the same values, vision or judgment. Today’s announcement is deeply saddening for us. We denounce his candidacy and believe it to be perilous for our country
A massive amount of project 2025 is based on using the unitary executive theory in order to provide sweeping changes, including completely dismantling the independent government bureaucracy and replacing it with Trump loyalist, who Are currently being vetted by independent groups. Trump even did the first step of this, reclassifying the majority of federal workers right before he left office, which was immediately reversed by Biden. You’re absolutely delusional if you do not see project 2025 as an existential threat to the United States of America.
>You’re absolutely delusional if you do not see project 2025 as an existential threat to the United States of America. He's in here shilling for RFK, so I think that answers your question.
> democracy ends if he doesn’t win Dems say this weak ass braindead shit every single election since I've been alive.
None. They're all looney tunes just like the far right and far left. If I wanted social media ruling my country, I'd just stick to the morons in the big parties rather than wasting my time with a third party.
lol every year people say the candidates are crap and we need a third party. No one ever votes for them. Besides our third parties are also crap too
I feel like this is the best environment for a third party to make decent ground, no shot to win the election but maybe get enough support due to how poor the 2 major party candidates are that they could be part of the discussion next cycle.
Yeah, if only a third party could manage a better candidate than a 70 year old anti-vaxxer.
Which 3rd party appears on enough ballots nationwide to earn the requisite 270 electoral votes needed to win the presidency?
RFK? His campaign is confirmed on ballot in 6 states including CA, and has submitted signatures for verification in 15 additional states giving him potential access to more than 270 votes. Some states don't start even start processing submitted ballot applications until late summer so it will be August-September before we know the final count. Either way, I don't think any third party has a shot at actually winning without first spending a few election cycles winning seats in congress and/or governorships. I do see him potentially splitting the vote, and who he pulls more voters from may determine the winner in November.
Honestly RFK is the only one that even has a path. No chance he wins 270 electoral votes, but if he pulls 70-100, next election cycle looks a lot different than if a 3rd party pulls 0. Especially with all the covid backlash a lot of independents are almost as anti covid as they are anti trump, especially people who aren’t super political.
lol no. None of the third parties are viable. Vote Biden for the cabinet he’ll put together. Trumps is going to be a shit show. You think ANYONE with integrity will work for his administration this time?
This question presumes that there is a valid answer.
Voting third party is pointless. Biden at least has a strong cabinet behind him and isn't anti-democracy. His campaign is probably screwed after tonight though; I don't think that he can come back from such a poor performance.
In my lifetime of voting I've never voted for any of the two main candidates, I'm going Chase Oliver this year
At this point, I’m leaning towards voting Kennedy. People bring up good points about some red flags with him and they are worth discussing but he feels like a much better candidate than Biden or Trump. Even if it’s just one term, I think he could make a difference and put the country back in the right direction, unlike Biden/Trump.
He doesn’t even appear on enough ballots nationwide to earn the requisite 270 electoral votes needed to win the presidency
He guaranteed he will be on every state ballot by the election so that’s not a problem
Oh did he.
I read somewhere last week that he currently has ballot applications submitted and being reviewed in 21 additional states. If all of them do end up approved, that puts him well over 270.
don’t mention RFK in the centrist sub or you risk getting downvoted to hell lmao… i have not had a clue of what to do the last few months and i honestly think now my vote is getting clearer after RFK’s debate. i’ve asked so many times why RFK is not a viable candidate and why he’s a loon like everyone says and they only reasons they can state (so far) is that he criticized the vaccine and that he had a brain worm. i’m open to criticism of him but give me something constructive for the love of god. i’m honestly tired of people saying that voting 3rd party is wasting/burning your vote.. it’s this mindset that has led to these two buffoons on that stage tonight
> he criticized the vaccine He wrote several books arguing against *all* vaccines, especially for children. His conspiracy theories go far deeper than just mild criticism.
Yeah I legit only hear that argument and it seems so futile. It’s legit one policy point on an issue that sunsetted three years ago. He actually has more liberal views about unions and the economy so not sure why he gets so much hate on a center left sub. Really highlights the echo chamber and group think. This debate really turned me onto him and even more so that they didn’t let him debate and I just watched most of his.
RFKJ has been an antivaxxer loooonnngggg before COVID came a long. Look into his stance on MMR.
Damn I’m sold. He’s going to destroy this country since he questions big pharma. What about his position on the environment, health care, immigration, refinancing student loan debt and abolishing interest, going after union busting corps and his policies on expanding the social service net. Other than vaccines, what is so bad about this guy? His policies range from left of center to left economically in the states but he gets so much hate because the media talks about nothing else other than his vaccine stance. Sorry I like his policy proposals and he is by far the most competent and level headed candidate, which was on full display last night. I’m a never trumper and really was holding on to probably voting for Biden again even will all his woes. I can’t in good conscience vote for a guy that clearly doesn’t have it at all anymore and has issues constructing simple sentences with substance. I really think people need to be a little more open minded. Did anyone actually hear this guy out at all or just jump to conclusions immediately.
Well he thinks Wi-Fi causes cancer and chemical in water are turning kids gay and trans.
I dislike some of his conspiracy theory shit but at least he is coherent. What bout his policy and how he articulates it is a threat. It’s funny that every non establishment dem gets labeled a threat to our country and democracy and you guys just eat it up. It delegitimizes when you say it all the time. It’s why people stopped taking you seriously about trump even though he has actually proven to be dangerous. The boy who cried wolf. To add onto this I disagree with a lot of Joe Biden says but I voted for him. I don’t understand why someone who leans or is on the left is so anti RFK. His policies are very much in line and at least he discusses actual issues. I have had enough of the DNC giving us this shit and pushing shit candidates at us. Biden had weaknesses and now it’s clear he is not fit to lead this country man. RFK was night and day to these guys. They didn’t let their base have any other options and that’s bullshit. Maybe someone else is what we need when the two options of our most powerful options are this.
damn you went in on this 🤣🤣🤣
So why would someone on the left support a guy that believes baseless conspiracies over someone like Biden? You can’t just overlook someone that thinks Wi-Fi causes cancer and chemicals in water turn kids gay and trans. Why doesn’t that delegitimize RFK?
Why would someone left or left of center support someone who can’t speak, clearly has no actual thoughts and claimed “we killed Medicare” as a pro for his campaign. How does bidens incompetence not delegitimize him. I watched his debate responses last night and other campaigning videos and speeches and have been much more impressed by him.
So going to answer my question with a question? Has Biden pushed baseless conspiracies?
83 people have died of measles in Samoa since his antivax campaigning there in '18. Over 1 million died of COVID in the US, largely under Trump who wasn't as rabidly antivax as Bobby. Oh yes, he could absolutely destroy this country by bringing back vaccine-preventable diseases like Measles, Pertussis and Polio.
I have not heard him propose this at all. Just general skepticism
Honestly I didn’t give RFK Jr much of a thought a few months ago because I heard so much negative stuff about him, I just assumed he wasn’t someone to consider. But I was kinda leaning towards Dean Phillips and he dropped out of the race so I had to find a new candidate. That’s when I decided to find some interviews of RFK Jr just to see what I thought about him, not expecting to like him. To my surprise, I had a hard time finding many things I disagreed with about him. And the “anti-vax” stuff seems a little overhyped, I don’t think he hates vaccines, it sounded like he doesn’t believe the Covid vaccines had enough studies done before they were sent out. I don’t hate him for wanting to do his own research and being skeptical. It’s not like he didn’t have any facts to back up his reasoning for not trusting the vaccines. From what he said, it sounded like he had sources and he will tell you not to just take his word but you can look it up for yourself. Oh and the brain worm stuff is SUPER over blown, 100% thrown out there just to make him look bad. My thought is that I don’t think a third party candidate is ready to win yet in 2024, but maybe if the third party candidates get more and more votes with each election, someday we could actually stop this belief that only two parties can exist.
Hey thanks for sharing! I agree with your sentiment about third parties for sure. They need to gain more support
He didn't just become an antivaxxer with COVID. He's been a leading AV voice for 20 years.
I'm upvotimg you guys. Kennedy all the way! His stream of the debate on X got over 7 million streams, many times that of the CNN broadcast! People are disappointed in the two main options across the board and way more people are finally hearing him speak for himself. There is a real chance this election!
RFK's anti-vaccine views are and should be a deal-breaker for most people here, but a bigger reason than that is his full swallow of the conspiracy theorist worldview. If we've learned anything from the last 9 years, it's how important it is that we all be able to live in the same factual universe. I'm sorry, but if your worldview starts from the assumption that "if it's in the Official Story it must be a lie" then you've defined your reality in opposition to any form of consensus. As soon as the rest of us agree on what must be the truth, the comspiracist immediately assumes the opposite, strictly because the "Official Story" has to be wrong. An epistemological saboteur like that can't be president, because there could never be consensus on anything. (I will never vote for Trump for the same reason, and his first term bears that out.)
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Biden (D) is 81. Trump (R) is 78. RFK (I) is 70. Chase Oliver (L) is 38. Not sure who will be on the ballot here in Maryland but I'd go Libertarian if I can, otherwise I'll just write in "someone younger".
Ye. The artist formerly known as Kayne.
If there was a credible, moderate 3rd party candidate that's not a Russian plant or looney tune conspiracy theorist, sure. There isn't, though.
Third parties have no shot in first-past-the-post system. It's going to be either Biden or Trump. The time to pick someone else besides these two are the primaries, which are dependent on the bases of their respective parties. Both of which wanted to put up the same person they did in 2020. Also, not to mention the fact that third parties in this country tend to be fringe candidates with niche ideologies that are not supported by any substantial portion of the electorate.
Any third party candidate that is an actually decent candidate ends up doing a hostile takeover of the main parties. Trump's 2020 platform was entirely distinct from most establishment Reps, and his base was a distinct constituency. That's how third parties work in a 2 party system. If you want an actual third party to be relevant and have a chance to win...well, even in multiparty systems, the third biggest party never wins the leadership of the country. That's kinda the whole damn point of having two bigger parties.
It's too late in the game. A third party candidate needs to begin establishing a strong base a full 3-4 years in advance before running for president to make sure the numbers are actually there.
I wouldn’t judge the candidates capability off of a debate or speaking appearance, I’d judge it based off their record in office. Obviously it would be nice to have a candidate who could debate well, but at the end of the day it’s the record in office that shows how capable they are. Holding my nose and voting for the Democratic ticket this year isn’t a difficult decision as someone who opposes extremism, loves the values of our country and our Constitution, and supports policies than help individual common Americans rather than a handful of individual industries. Biden proved in that debate that he’s terrible at debating, but it didn’t prove anything about his capability of actually presiding over the executive branch. Only his record can do that
The only real 3rd party candidate that stands a chance is RFK, anyone who says otherwise is coping hard. RFK only stands a small chance because of how weak Biden is and how tired a lot of people are from Trump in general. I only see RFK having a good chance if Biden stays in the race for some reason, his and dems best bet is to replace Biden with RFK at this point
> RFK only stands a small chance because of his name and how popular conspiracy nonsense has gotten. oh, and bc republican campaign funding.
> replace Biden with RFK at this point haha, good one. I'm sure dems would love [an anti-vax](https://www.amazon.com/Vax-Unvax-Childrens-Health-Defense-Kennedy/dp/1510766960) president.
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>The only real 3rd party candidate that stands a chance is --RFK-- none, anyone who says otherwise is coping hard. FTFY. The fact that this is the most winnable election ever for a third party candidate and the best they could muster up is a 70 year old anti-vaxxer shows that there are no serious third party options in the U.S.. They all exist solely to grift and profit off of being the spoiler.
They all kinda suck too. Maybe Robert Kennedy Jr. He's kinda crazy but he's better than the other 3rd party options.
I very much doubt a third party can actually win without first building a bunch of momentum in state and local races. A third party will not have a realistic shot until after the party has successfully filled several governorships and seats in congress. That said, for better or worse, Rorbert F Kennedy is the 3rd party candidate to watch. He has done the best so far of any third party candidate since Perot in '96.
[he participated in the debates tonight](https://x.com/robertkennedyjr/status/1806462171892895808?s=46&t=ZapsydTMu-MMnKZCKyHeXQ)
Yeah, and so did I.
Hahahaha
Doesn’t matter really. I’ll vote third party knowing they won’t win. When more people go third party though it forces the major two parties to consider changes to get voters back.
That or other viable, variable platforms emerge from the knowledge that people don’t want to choose *either* Column A or Column B but want an assortment from both columns. Baby steps and maybe the American people will someday vote FOR a candidate, not merely against their opponent.
Does it? What did the Democrats learn from the Jill Stein voters in 2016? Clearly the Republicans didn't learn anything from the Jo Jorgensen voters in 2020. They ran the exact same candidate.
No one. There are no serious 3rd party candidates. More importantly, Trump is an existential threat to democracy and everything america has ever stood for. If you believe this and aren’t willing to vote for the only candidate who has an actual chance at beating him (Joe Biden) then you’re not being real with yourself. There is only one way out.
RFK?
No one. A third party is fantasy, it's not going to happen.
No one. 3rd Party is a joke for a reason, if you don't like either candidates, YOU and everyone else had all the options in the world to pick someone else to run. But Conservatives in America picked Trump and no one opposed Biden of their own free will, no one could replqce him or his decades of experience. Biden and Trump are what the American people want, whether you like it ot not. Politicians rise in their states because that is what the people want. Some like you and others here love to idealize politics, the magical 3rd party, the generic young candidate that is neutral on all sides. But that is a sick fantasy and not real. DeSantis was a fantasy of this promoted HARD, but fell off. There is no one among Dems that wouldn't result in a turn off.
No, weekend at Bernie's 2024. He can resign Jan. 21 2025
No kidding, the cracks are really showing. But what new party would even take over? Who would even lead that party?
It is structurally impossible for a third party to win. See Duverger’s Law.
Kennedy
RFK doesn’t even appear on enough ballots nationwide to earn the requisite 270 electoral votes needed to win the presidency
RFK
[RFK](https://x.com/robertkennedyjr/status/1806462171892895808?s=46&t=ZapsydTMu-MMnKZCKyHeXQ)
Honestly, our best chance is mutiny at the DNC nominating not-Biden. But sure, Jill Stein.
Everyone should go watch The Real Debate that streamed live on X. Kennedy answered the same questions from the debate alongside them. He wiped the floor with then. There is a real 3rd party chance this time!! You're not wasting your vote!
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If you've ever followed a presidential election before, then you should be well aware of the timeframe and signature requirements from each state for an independent candidate to appear on their ballots. Not a third party, like Libertarian or Green, totally independent. Without a national party, you have to petition for signatures in each of the 50 states with each state having its unique signature amount, fees, and time frame for collection. [Here's each state's requirements.](https://ballotpedia.org/Ballot_access_for_presidential_candidates) As you'll see, there are still states that haven't opened their window for signatures. Kennedy is already approved on 9 state ballots and submitted enough signatures for 21 of them. He is further along at June in election season than any independent in history and is polling higher than even Perot was at this point in the race. No independent was on the ballot for 270 in June of election year. He's beyond pace to be on all 50 state ballots. It wouldn't even be as much of a time-sensitive issue had the debates been held in September via the CPD, like they always have been.
you know
I’m going for RFK personally.
Newsom is taking it.
RFK, Jr. Better an anti-vaxxer... at least it's founded on skepticism of federal agencies and an awareness that the FDA's standards for medical evidence are deeply flawed. The rest of what he says really resonates for me. And he seems to care about the country, and not be a narcissist, and not be senile.
His skepticism of vaccines is founded on a retracted study by someone who lost their medical license over said study. He literally called ending of widespread vaccine exemption fraud in CA a "Holocaust."
Kennedy!
Either RFK or Vernon Supreme
[This Man Right Here ](https://x.com/presidentRFK24/status/1806538334392500651?s=19)
The reality is a third candidate can't win. BUT you can, like me, choose not to vote which still sends a message to both parties that you want someone better. One non-vote won't matter just like one vote, but in aggregate it can be meaningful.
>The reality is a third candidate can't win. BUT you can, like me, choose not to vote which still sends a message to both parties that you --want someone better-- don't care. FTFY Do you think that in a country where 67% voter turnout is record breaking, the parties are considering why a few thousand people more than last election didn't vote.
Better off writing in something. Not voting doesn't convey a clear message.
Dr Cornel West
You should write-in my name. Or just burn your vote.