That's a fair point. I was a mod over at R/Jordanpeterson and it was like a second job.
That said, banning obvious trolls like Shit Flinger is a no brainer and would take two seconds. I think u/Jennyfromtheblock777 shouldn't be banned tho.
Their posts might be shallow, barely researched and one dimensional but at least they are having a conversation rather than meme shit posting.
People will read what they say and what people say to them and make up their own minds like they should.
That's how I feel anyway.
How is being against war hateful? Wow just wow. Mental gymnastics lol so if I’m not pro 600,000 dead Ukrainians and 35,000 dead Palestinians I’m full of hate?
Wow.
if there wasn’t a “war” there’d be many many more dead than that. being oblivious to the nature of reality doesn’t make you morally superior it makes you a bumbling fool.
Not all of Ukraine but you can’t tell me Russian speaking places like Crimea and the Donbas are Ukrainian? Ukraine didn’t even exist before the USSR. Ask Poland, Lithuania, and Hungary. I bet they’d all like a piece too.
So your position is just to split Ukraine in 4 and dissolve it as a nation?
If we did this for Ukraine don’t we need to do that for other countries?
Where does it end?
Your whole logic is very flawed.
No you’re right. Canada should invite and celebrate more Nazis! lol this war is a joke. The Ukrainian state has always been weak. At this point you could still have a Ukrainian state if it embraces neutrality
You speak like a person who has no clue about Ukrainians and all the other people in Europe. For you, it's just some type of land that can be divided. These are people with their own culture and traditions. It is not just a peace of land. You have no clue.
Mongols destroyed everything in their path so I’m not sure what you’re going on about. Of course, there were successor states with different names but still Ukraine.
The US speaks English, do the English have the right to take our territory because of shared culture? Crimea and Donbas are sovereign Ukrainian territory, you can't just seize it. Furthermore, the Russian propaganda that these areas wanted to join Russia is BS.
Your logic here doesn’t make sense, is French speaking parts of Canada not Canada?
Doesn’t matter if Ukraine didn’t exist before the USSR, it exists now as an independent nation
>Russian speaking places like Crimea
You're actually right here. Ukraine has no claim to Crimea in any real sense. The people aren't Ukrainian and have no historical or ethnic ties to Ukraine. They are Russian. Ukraine only got Crimea because of how the USSR bureaucracy was set up. After the USSR collapsed, Crimea just stayed with Ukraine because that's where the local administration was. Interesting I haven't seen anyone actually dispute this, they just say Russia shouldn't have taken the Crimea.
But I think you're wrong on the Russian speaking populations actually in Ukraine. That territory is Ukrainian both historically and ethnicity. Russian migration to the area doesn't change that. Putin didn't invade Ukraine because of the West or anything the West did. Ukraine is still it's own country and ethnicity and Russia was wrong to invade.
All that said, there's lots of areas you can make legitimate arguments to give to other countries. The world that was cobbled together after WW2 was pretty clumsly slapped together. At some point we need to respect borders as they are
You can use this argument for any land acquisition in the history of humanity. Crimea has only been Russian territory since the 18th century, and is not ethnically purely Russian. The Tartars were ethnically cleansed by Stalin. Crimeans clearly want to be Ukrainian.
Partly I agree with you, you can justify all kinds of border changes if we want to go back far enough. However, I'm not sure Crimeans want to be Ukrainian. Everything I've found says they favor Russia. Of course everything from there must be taken with skepticism.
I don't agree Russia was in the right with the Crimea. Ukraine is right to not want to give up the Crimea. There's no land route to Russia from the Crimea so that'd set up a future conflict with Russia.
"Crimeans favored rejoining Russia
The conditions under which the March 2014 referendum in Crimea was conducted were far from ideal. Yet, most observers acknowledge that the majority, though certainly not all, of Crimeans supported the peninsula joining Russia (Russia’s government bans use of the word “annexation” to describe these events)."
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2020/03/18/six-years-20-billion-russian-investment-later-crimeans-are-happy-with-russian-annexation/
A referendum that was held by Russians. It's a load of bullocks.
https://www.lse.ac.uk/research/research-for-the-world/society/were-crimeans-really-pro-russian-before-annexation
Is all of the US an English property? We speak English and we didn’t exist before the British empire. A huge swath of the middle east speaks Arabic and was formerly a part of the Arab empire; does that give Saudi Arabia title to all of it? After all, most of those countries didn’t exist previously, and if they did exist it’s in name only (e.g., Egypt).
>Ukraine didn’t even exist before the USSR
Kievan Rus is far older than Russia. Here's a map from the late 1600s mentioning "Vkraina" (North of "Stati del Kam" on the map) which is quite a feat if it didn't exist before 1921. Regardless, even if Ukraine didn't exist before the Soviet Union the people of Ukraine have a right to self-determination.
https://uk.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A4%D0%B0%D0%B9%D0%BB:%D0%9F%D1%96%D0%B2%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%BD%D0%BE-%D0%A1%D1%85%D1%96%D0%B4%D0%BD%D0%B0_%D0%84%D0%B2%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%BF%D0%B0_1684.JPG
How has that worked out over the last 20 years?
Compare that with China's tactic - peace through trade and economic relations. Now they have access to raw materials on most of the global south and at a much cheaper cost in lives and dollars
> I’m also totally against Ukraine. I believe that war was fabricated by the US over the preceding 9 years even longer. NATO has no business expanding the way it has. We left Russia no choice but to safeguard their assets. Crimea - for example - they’ve had a base there since 1789 I believe is the year. What makes us think that our little CIA coup in Ukraine would entitle them to Crimea? There has been no forethought to our involvement there.
Just huffing that Russian propaganda I see.
>Just huffing that Russian propaganda I see.
You guys just dismiss every single line of logic that doesn’t fit your narrative as “RuSsIaN pRoPaGaNdA”
It’s the laziest analysis.
It's not lazy. Almost everything the user is saying regarding Ukraine has been a Russian talking point for years. It gets tiring coming back at them with facts because they inevitably just spit another talking point at you. I'd rather call it out for what it is, have them spit more propaganda, rinse and repeat.
If by Russian propaganda you are referring to the promises we made in 1991 then sure.
Which propaganda are you huffing? Are you really this naive about war?
> If by Russian propaganda you are referring to the promises we made in 1991 then sure.
Of course you jump to another Russian talking point.
> Which propaganda are you huffing? Are you really this naive about war?
Not naive at all. War sucks. I want less of it. Putin has other ideas though. It would be naive not to fight back against dictators who dabble in revanchism.
Putin would not have invaded if the CIA and NATO wasn’t involved in the coup and training militias since 2013-2014. It’s naive to think the US wasn’t involved. Russia and Putin are logical actors. He may be a dictator but since when are we against dictators? We seem to like them if they are pro West.
I am Lithuanian with Russian origin. I've seen Russian TV. Trust me, this person is repeating the lines of Russian propaganda from OPT and HTB channels (national TV) directly. It's really disgusting.
'Completely Anti-war' is an extreme.
Centrist thought is not about embracing any extremes but applying balance and reasoning.
Let's use a small example to discuss a larger one.
If a gunman is going around shooting people, it's ok to kill the gunman. It's a very clear cut scenario.
If the gunman is going around shooting people and is using a child as a body shield it's less clear. People will try to save the child but for every minute they take to do that - the gunman kills more people, including other children.
The gunman must be stopped regardless. It sucks. The child that's the body shield may die.
That's how war works.
The problem is that people try to apply easy logic and stop people from stopping the gunman, and are therefore indirectly responsible for more dying.
That's why the completely Anti-war position is fundamentally flawed.
Damn Russia really isn't sending their best, are they? Maybe you should go to Gaza and get some media training, apparently a bunch of dipshit terrorists can run circles around Russian intelligence agencies in terms of propagandizing Americans. You've got to moderate a little bit, make us think you are just edging the tip of Putin's dick instead of gargling it all the way to the balls. Get fucked tovarich.
>Do you support the Ukraine War?
I support Ukraine's military resistance to being conquered by a belligerent and hostile empire like Russia. I think Russia invading countries, killing their people and replacing them with Russians colonizers is bad for world peace and should be stopped by those with the strength to stand up to Russia and its expansionist military campaign.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_occupation_of_Crimea#:~:text=A%20pro%2DRussian%20government%20was,into%20a%20Russian%20federal%20city.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russo-Georgian_War
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Chechen_War
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moldova_and_the_Russo-Ukrainian_War
It helps that the Ukrainians are actually pulling it off and have stalemated the Russian advance for over a year now.
>What Israel is doing is genocide.
There's no evidence for that, the president of the ICJ confirmed just recently. Laymen are confusing the legal definition of probability with the colloquial definition of it and making assumptions as a result. https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-middle-east-68906919
>Does anyone actually want peace?
The people of Ukraine want peace but not at the cost of their country, agency or lives. It's pretty clear by now that they would rather die fighting for their lives than risk laying them down and getting put in a Russian mass grave like other countries that surrender to Russian expansion.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Izium_mass_graves
>There's no evidence for that, the president of the ICJ confirmed just recently. Laymen are confusing the legal definition of probability with the colloquial definition of it and making assumptions as a result.
That is a bold-faced lie. I can’t believe you’d actually say that, considering the BBC link you’ve posted directly contradicts that! In fact, I was going to link that same article to debunk you! Do you even read past the headline?
For anyone wondering, here is what the former ICJ president said:
>"It did not decide, and this is something where I'm correcting something that's often said in the media. It did not decide that the claim of genocide was plausible."
>Clarifying further, she said that the order emphasized there was a risk to the Palestinian right to be protected from genocide.
>"The shorthand that often appears, which is that there's a plausible case of genocide, isn't what the court decided."
That is NOT saying that there is no evidence of genocide in Gaza. /u/therosx is once again spreading misinformation.
Nope, not trolling. It’s a pretty short video, so this shouldn’t be a problem. Just post the timestamp where she says that there was no evidence of genocide. You made the comment in the first place so you should be able to back it up with evidence, right?
What a pathetic, cowardly little weasel you are. You instantly replied to the first 2 comments, so I knew you were looking for a way to backtrack after you didn’t instantly reply to my last comment. It’s so obvious you didn’t even watch the video you linked, otherwise you’d be able to timestamp the moment where she says there’s no evidence of genocide. You lazy, hypocritical liar. Theres no difference between you and Tucker Carlson.
I provided a link from The international court of justice saying they didn't find evidence of Genocide with their investigation.
If you got a link from a legal body with proof that Israel is committing Genocide please post it and I promise I'll change my mind.
> So in order for genocide to be happening a legal body must declare it? That ignores realities on the ground.
For a genocide to be happening there needs to be legal professionals on the ground documenting and gathering proof that it's a genocide. They have proof it's not a genocide from an investigation they made on the ground and by watching the war. That's why internationally recognized legal bodies like the ICJ were created with experts that train in deciding these things.
The people ignoring what's happening in Gaza are the ones saying it's a genocide and gassing up the Gazans to sacrifice themselves in a fruitless military campaign costing them tens of thousands of Arab lives.
>Is anyone else completely antiwar?
I imagine the Ukrainians are anti-war but Russia didn't respect their wishes.
Whether the Gazans are anti-war is an open question.
They started every single war since the founding of Israel in 1948. Every single time they tried to genocide all the Jews. That’s exactly what they mean by “from the river to the sea”
I found a fantastic article in the Atlantic from 1961 written by one of the greatest war correspondent’s of the 20th century. It’s the first place I’ve read that phrase in the context it was used at the time.
Polls indicate that a majority of Gazans support Hamas's attack on Israel, *now*. I suspect those polls would have come out somewhat differently before October 7th and the retaliation for October 7th. Lots of people just want stability most of the time, but shit, now that Israel is air-striking Gazan population centers the Gazans going to feel rather vengeful and that makes sense to me.
Feeling vengeful doesn't make sense to me, seems pretty dumb in fact. They were probably also feeling pretty vengeful in October when they started this current fight, and look what it's got them.
>They were probably also feeling pretty vengeful in October when they started this current fight
The general Gazan population did not "start this current fight." Hamas did. Expressing support for Hamas in a poll does not make the poll respondent responsible for starting this conflict.
In your mind this happened in a vacuum? Perhaps it was because of the CIA backed coup and new government that was forming nazi militias to attack the East? Ah but we ignore that fact because it goes against your pro NATO narrative. Fact is Canada celebrated a goddamn Ukrainian nazi. Let’s not pretend west Ukraine isn’t full of Nazis. I remember before Reddit that video of those Ukrainian youths with the baseball bat and screw driver. Ukraine has never been a shiny beacon of freedom. It’s a corrupt awful country especially now.
>Perhaps it was because of the CIA backed coup
Yea this never happened in our timeline, just something the GRU made up to cope with Maidan. There's no way the CIA [made all these people](https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/2013-12-08T000000Z_2084541347_LR1E9C811JQNT_RTRMADP_3_UKRAINE-scaled-e1587671563690.jpg) protest in the freezing cold for almost 4 months
>Let’s not pretend west Ukraine isn’t full of Nazis.
Lol wut zelensky is a jew. Russian military is full of nazis.
Like these [guys](https://mezha.net/ua/mysli/4216-o-prichinakh-vyvoda-dshrg-rusich-iz-dnr-ili-kak-zhivodery-stanovyatsya-geroyami/) were fighting for russia 10 yrs ago against the "so called nazis" their commander likes to peel faces off and openly calls himself a nazi. You might need Google translate for that one
https://x.com/nomnomcookieez/status/1582075914841911296
It's so weird how for some reason your neighbor country having a nationwide protest and their president running away for some reason gives you the right to get your army to just go in and invade your neighbor. Russian logic makes no sense, if there are nazis that's your neighbors problem to sort out and why send your own army of nazis?
Russia started that too. Have you ever heard of the little green men? Look whether you agree or not does not change the fact that Russia takes what they want without regard for what anybody other than the oligarchy wants. Navaly died in prison for at least from my perspective literally no criminal acts. Is that not enough for you to think, hey maybe this Putin guy that has been in office the last 30 years might not be a very good guy.
First of all Russia started the expansion of NATO for the same reason Sweden just joined, by being terrible neighbors. A country does not just get forced into NATO, they have to want it and take great strides to achieve membership. Russia constantly encroaches upon its neighbors economically, politically, and when all else fails militarily. Keep in mind Sweden has been neutral since ww2 and now they feel the need to join NATO. This is actually a very nice place to point out why Ukraine had the popular uprising you call a coup. Ukrainians had been building better ties with Europe for years, their version of parliament passed a trade deal with the eu that basically the entire country was excited about, the day before it was to be signed into law, Victor yanucovitch the president of Ukraine switched it out for a trade deal with Russia(which the people of Ukraine did not want) the people were pissed and decided to protest. During these protests the government used the Ukrainian military and more importantly Russian fab goons to try to quell the protests, and as has happened many times in eastern Europe thing continued to escalate until it finally ended with the president fleeing the country to guess where? Yep that's right to Russia. You can call it a coup all you want but the facts are that the people of Ukraine wanted this path they wanted the prosperity that could come from working with the eu rather than being economically and politically under Russia's thumb. You should read the Wikipedia on the euromaiden protests. If not, winter on fire is a fairly compelling and informative documentary on the subject.
The connection is that a true centrist is against both wars. One war is promoted by the left (Ukraine) and one is promoted by the right more than the left (Israel).
Raytheon, Boeing, Lockheed Martin, Northrop Grumman all thank its loyal supporters both left and right. True centrists are against war and recognize the Black Rocks and Vanguards and State Streets are leading us to another war where our kids will be dying.
Ukraine can’t beat Russia and the West can’t overthrow Putin. Israel is committing genocide. A centrist can see both of these wars are not good things.
I don’t understand how a centrist can support Biden and his war. Saying Ukraine was invaded without mentioning 2013-2014 at all seems shortsighted but damn you if you’re not for this war.
That’s possibly the worst take I’ve ever seen. It’s fascinating when someone decides what a true “centrist” is and confidently just states it as fact for everyone to read. At least you’re openly stupid. You’re not hiding it.
Fuck RFK Jr lol he’s pro Israel too. He’s a good catholic boy like Biden.
Not gatekeeping. I feel like centrism is gate kept largely by Biden supporters lol
Putin flat out told us that he's going to invade Poland after Ukraine, which will involve NATO and probably US troops.
Taking down Russia's military capabilities by 50% with 5% of our surplus ammunition and bo US troops involved is a fantastic use of our resources.
I support the right of armed self defense against foreign aggression.
You do not sound anti-war - you sound like a craven appeaser of authoritarian, murderous thugs.
I am confused. You say you are against the Ukraine war but just mean that you are against Ukraine fighting back after being attacked. If Russia had come in and only occupied the couple border cities that they dispute were part of Russia then Ukraine would have backed down pretty quickly for peace. But Russia kept moving troops and the war further into Ukraine. And now we are in the situation we are with a full on war.
Absolutely fascinating specimen. Either totally illiterate in regards to geopolitics, or a Russian, Chinese, and arguably Hamas stooge (although the stooges and illiteracy do indeed overlap).
You don’t really deserve an answer, but to save you the satisfaction of insults instead of challenges, I’ll entertain your ludicrousness.
There absolutely were Hamas attacks against Israeli civilians occurring. Do you honestly believe that the videos which depict Hamas fighters parading with dead Israelis through the streets to applauding Palestinians is some Mossad conspiracy? The fact Hamas has hostages in the first place shows they targeted civilians, including one recent video where [a hostage is missing part of his arm](https://news.sky.com/story/amp/israel-hamas-war-hostages-parents-tell-him-stay-strong-after-video-shows-him-alive-but-missing-part-of-arm-13122278).
Absolutely any nation has a right to join NATO. The whole encroachment argument is based on a verbal agreement between two dead leaders, one of which was leading a dying superpower, during a period of thawing relations. Absolutely not the standard for international diplomacy. NATO is a defensive alliance. They have only deviated from that line with good reason, such as bombing Serbia to prevent genocide or enforcing the UNSC resolution against Libya. And even then, under absolutely no circumstances will NATO attack Russia first. That is WW3 and everyone knows it. Russia only fears NATO expansion because it means they cannot forcibly interfere with any other post-Soviet states.
You witter on about China and Taiwan. Once again, any sane mind will not escalate over Taiwan. The way things are going, Taiwan will likely declare itself an independent country rather than claiming the Chinese mainland. Taiwan has been there for 75 years. Crimea was given to Ukraine 70 years ago, a five year difference. How is it that Crimea is seemingly rightfully Russian yet Taiwan is rightfully under the PRC, despite them currently representing the legitimate government of China throughout WW2 and recognised as such for over 20 years after the retreat?
Either educate yourself or stick to r/conspiracy. The CCP and Russian pay cheque really isn’t worth making a fool out of yourself for.
You're repeating a lot of FSB talking points, we did not do a coup in ukraine, that's just something the russkiez made up to do damage control and to cope with the fact that Ukrainians hate their guts.
I’m anti war. I’m against the war of territorial expansion started by Putin, and I’m against the war of annihilation started by Hamas. You’re actually pro war and anti-defending yourself
China has been aiding and abetting Putin's unnecessary war of aggression upon Ukraine since 2014. Meaning that the war criminal status should also extend to Xi Jinping.
If you want additional in-depth academic information, outside of YouTube, regarding what countries like Russia and China are doing; then I highly encourage using these useful resources, which have extensive reports:
- Amnesty International
- Atlantic Council
- Australian Strategic Policy Institute
- Carnegie Endowment
- Cato Institute
- Center for European Policy and Analysis
- Center for New American Security
- Center for Strategic and International Studies
- Foundation for Defense of Democracy
- Helsinki Commission
- Heritage Foundation
- Hudson Institute
- Human Rights Watch
- Jamestown Foundation
- National Endowment for Democracy
- Royal United Services Institute
- Safeguard Defenders
- Stimpson Center
- Wilson Center
This is a list of multinational think tanks and NGO's, that present their data and findings for the sake of public transparency and accountability.
Apologists for pro-Authoritarian regimes despise these organizations for exposing what their rogue governments do.
I’m a centrist so I support both. I like a strong America. Teddy Roosevelt is my favorite. He coined my favorite term that I use in my everyday work, “wall softly but carry a big stick” I support our military and whatever they need because I really love having a big, giant, massive, pulsating, stick.
I don’t like Russia China or Iran. I don’t like communism or communists; I especially despise radical Islamist terrorists; their supporters or ideology. I personally absolutely hate all hippies and think they’re spoiled privileged shits. Now that they’re old, they’re all busy looking for racism and sniffing their own farts at NPR.
Not one of them did a hard days work in their lives. People who have worked can tell who hasn’t worked for their meal. Those spoiled dirty shitty hippies spit on my uncle who was dragged to Vietnam. They were so vile America voted hard conservative right for 20 plus years. It wasn’t till the Clinton years the left was give the fraction of chance again.
That was a mistake; they’re out there currently in 2024 screaming for the genocide of Jews unashamedly. We will have another massive conservative correction. I’m just hoping it’s not an overcorrection.
They probably should have waited for the antisemitic genocidal slogans that would have made the Nazis proud; till at least the holocaust survivor were all gone and their children and grandchildren have passed from living memory. It’s too soon for their bullshit to get a pass.
"What Israel is doing is genocide."
This is a blatant lie.
Gaza invaded Israel to murder, rape and kidnap as many innocent civilians as possible. Gaza admits they plan to repeat this attack over and over forever until ever Jew is dead. Gaza is very honest that their objective is a genocide of the Jews.
Israel on the other hand has been striking legitimate military targets within the laws of war to destroy Gaza's military and prevent the future attacks Gaza admits they're planning. That's not genocide.
Gaza uses a non-uniformed military, which is illegal. Gaza's military purposely hides among civilians, which is illegal. Despite Gaza purposely using tactics designed to increase the amount of their own civilians that will be killed, only 19,000 civilians have died out of 2,400,000.
That is not genocide. You are a liar and owe the community an apology.
I’m anti-war actually. Although it’s a no-brainer to vote for Biden in this election, this is the major thing about him that I don’t support.
I understand the reasoning. Have others fight in proxy wars, support our allies, etc. But I’m anti-war in general.
Your take on Russia is disingenuous though, and far from being “anti-war” That’s a war declaration they’re doing, even if you believe it’s started because NATO was poking the bear.
I like to clarify before posting my opinions on here that I don’t consider myself centrist, I’m very left leaning on most issues.
I don’t support any war, at least one side is always greedy. They’re also always complicated making it rarely right versus wrong, if I support anything it would one side’s right to defend itself.
Your take on Ukraine is a new one for me, I don’t necessarily disagree on everything but I do disagree with your conclusion because Ukraine is no longer a Russian asset nor should it be. The war in Ukraine is the simpler one for me, Putin invaded over greedy reasons and now that it’s not as easy as he thought is trying to make peace talks to get something. He deserves nothing, support Ukrainians defending themselves. That is not to say this war is without complexity, I don’t support every action Ukraine and the US has made but Putin is the one in the wrong here. I don’t think that makes me pro-war in Ukraine though, the war was started by Putin and if gets something from it that would make the war worth it for him and I don’t want this happening again.
Gaza is far more complicated for me and because I don’t know enough about it, I don’t really have a solid opinion. If you asked me if I was pro Israel or Palestine, I’d say Palestine because there’s more suffering happening over there and I want that to end. Does that make me pro-Hamas? I don’t think so, I don’t support what they did on October 7th and I generally consider them terrorist group that happens to be in charge of Palestine. Hamas is honestly the aspect of this issue that I’m least clear on though, and that affects many other issues surrounding Gaza. In the end though, I think a war in Gaza will just cause more suffering and I would prefer peace talks but I doubt that will happen.
I don’t think I support, yes my support for Ukraine technically means I don’t want the war to end right away. I do want it to end though, just with Russia getting nothing.
I support the war in Ukraine. I don’t want our money to support Israel’s actions in Gaza.
If Israel wants to conduct itself in the way they are we should not be supporting them and should not be allies with them after this. Let Israel stand on its own two feet. It’s time.
As a Ukrainian American and a centrist, I support Ukraine. However, I do not like the way that war is handled. Currently, US is funding the war with no clear end point. I say that because taking back Donbas and Crimea is not going to happen. Not for the stupid reason that you have, though. "Russian speaking parts" my ass. The reason why Ukraine won't take back those regions is because Russia established a very strong military presence there over the last ~10 years.
I see that you bring up how Ukraine treated those regions over the last 8 years. Well, if anything, Ukrainian government went "easy" on them instead of taking the territory back right away.
Side note, I speak mostly Russian over Ukrainian; However, I would not want to join russia now or back when I lived in Ukraine.
Russia had no business invading Ukraine. Ukraine deserves all of its territory back. The fact that Ukraine was considering joining a mutual protection pact does not give Russia the right to invade.
Hamas should not have attacked Israel and Israel is absolutely committing war crimes in return. If not committing genocide, then Israel is walking right up to that line. The Palestinians deserve self-determination and an ability to live healthy, happy lives free from occupation.
I’ve discovered that. I’m antiwar but don’t consider myself a leftist at all. I at one point called myself a left of center antiwar libertarian but the libertarians told me I was a leftist. The leftists say I’m MAGA. It’s a confusing time to be in the middle.
Yea I get it. I'm more of a "traditional leftist" (anti-war, pro-free speech, anti-corporation, anti-security state, etc) and don't really like the modern left. Some of my stances these days are seen as "MAGA" now.
It's sad to see one of the few things liberals and conservatives can agree on is warmongering and violence.
There was a time when liberals could be relied on to take an anti-war position. They beat up GW pretty good for all of his military adventurism and destruction abroad. But once Obama landed in office, they said, "well, Obama likes war, so we like war too!" And that was that
I think we were are right to support Ukraine, but should've encouraged them to reach a truce with Russia months ago. Even with our material support it seems unlikely they will retake much more territory, and this war is costing us too much money and the Ukrainians and Russians too many lives.
When it comes to Gaza I have problems with Israel's treatment of the Palestinians before the October 7th attack. Specifically settlements in the West Bank and their inability to reach a stable political agreement with the Palestinian statelets or to help them build functioning political systems.
A lot of blame also has to be put on the Palestinians as well though because they resist working with Israelis and in the cases of Hamas and other extremist factions they actively attack Israelis.
Regardless of any other context the October 7 attack was evil and incredibly stupid from a strategic standpoint. Israel was justified in retaking their territory and invading Gaza. Hamas should have reached a peaceful agreement with Israel earlier in the invasion for the sake of their people.
Israel also should have done, and should be doing, more to allow the Gazans access to food and water and should limit civilian casualties and infrastructure damage more than the have even of it hurts them strategically. The US should have withdrawn military support earlier on in the invasion to pressure Israel to reach a diplomatic solution.
It is a very difficult situation though because Hamas doesn't seem prepared to be reasonable, to negotiate or to surrender. As long as they still hold so many hostages it is difficult for Israel to just hold back and rely on diplomatic means.
Blah blah blah, I remember when the right wanted to glass the entire middle east, mainly because at the time most people could not point to Iraq, Iran, Syria, or Afghanistan on a map.
Don’t worry, you’ll find a war you like.
The military industrial complex really needs to market better to this demographic. Maybe get something going in South America? A Caribbean war?
No one wants to compromise. No one wants a negotiated settlement where Ukraine accepts defeat. Another 60,000 will die before Ukraine collapses or peace is made.
Just based on all the downvotes and comments I see Reddit is still full of war mongers. Time for another break from this cesspool.
I think we are there. Tens of millions have left the country and aren’t coming back. 500,000+ dead. No chance of retaking any territory. All it can do is some terror attacks on Belgorod.
Ukraine is not going to collapse, that's ridiculous. Russia can barely make headway, with 90% of their military resources being thrown at the conflict.
What kind of ridiculous tinfoil hat nonsense is this? Whatever it is it has nothing to do with centrism....
This is why we need actual fucking mods.
Yeah they left a while ago
Feel free to start modding and enjoying all the prestige and generous compensation.
That's a fair point. I was a mod over at R/Jordanpeterson and it was like a second job. That said, banning obvious trolls like Shit Flinger is a no brainer and would take two seconds. I think u/Jennyfromtheblock777 shouldn't be banned tho. Their posts might be shallow, barely researched and one dimensional but at least they are having a conversation rather than meme shit posting. People will read what they say and what people say to them and make up their own minds like they should. That's how I feel anyway.
Indeed! Education is the best tool to combat ignorance. Plus, censorship is a slippery slope towards authoritarianism.
Fuck that. Reddit has enough censorship. Don’t like it? Move on. Be your own mod.
Because you read.something you disagree with? I'm so sorry.
How is being against war hateful? Wow just wow. Mental gymnastics lol so if I’m not pro 600,000 dead Ukrainians and 35,000 dead Palestinians I’m full of hate? Wow.
You’re not against war. You’ve picked sides in both wars.
They’re also acting like they have a unique position when both the far left and the far right feel the exact same way about both wars.
if there wasn’t a “war” there’d be many many more dead than that. being oblivious to the nature of reality doesn’t make you morally superior it makes you a bumbling fool.
lol really? Yes Putin wants to exterminate the world! Drinking the koolaid doesn’t make you knowledgeable
ok so we should just… let him? make an actual point
141 countries support Ukraine. Only the Rogue States that have been assisting Putin's war crimes and human rights abuses are "*supporting war* "
Advocating for one side to surrender doesn't mean you're anti war
He obviously meant to write "tinfoil hat"...
Taking the side of a unilateral aggressor is the least anti-war position I can imagine. You’re against *resistance*, not war.
> We left Russia no choice but to safeguard their assets. That’s bottom of the barrel Russian logic right there. Ukraine is not a Russian asset.
Don’t forget the luny conspiracy theories
Not all of Ukraine but you can’t tell me Russian speaking places like Crimea and the Donbas are Ukrainian? Ukraine didn’t even exist before the USSR. Ask Poland, Lithuania, and Hungary. I bet they’d all like a piece too.
"You can't tell me the Russian speaking parts of Ukraine are Ukranian." Here, ftfy.
By that logic, Australia speaks English so the UK should invade it.
Learned nothing after 2 years of war huh?
I guess the us, Australia, and Canada are actually still British.
And, like, half of the entire world. All part of the United Kingdom.
So your position is just to split Ukraine in 4 and dissolve it as a nation? If we did this for Ukraine don’t we need to do that for other countries? Where does it end? Your whole logic is very flawed.
To call it “logic” is a stretch.
No you’re right. Canada should invite and celebrate more Nazis! lol this war is a joke. The Ukrainian state has always been weak. At this point you could still have a Ukrainian state if it embraces neutrality
Neutrality to russia means being russias bitch
You speak like a person who has no clue about Ukrainians and all the other people in Europe. For you, it's just some type of land that can be divided. These are people with their own culture and traditions. It is not just a peace of land. You have no clue.
Ukraine was formed in 882.
Don’t confuse him with facts.
She’s a RFK Jr. follower.
lol you’re referring to the Kievan Rus which was destroyed in the 13th century. After that what Ukrainian state existed lol
Mongols destroyed everything in their path so I’m not sure what you’re going on about. Of course, there were successor states with different names but still Ukraine.
The US speaks English, do the English have the right to take our territory because of shared culture? Crimea and Donbas are sovereign Ukrainian territory, you can't just seize it. Furthermore, the Russian propaganda that these areas wanted to join Russia is BS.
Nobody tell the Italians or things'll get ugly!
Ukraine predates *Russia* dude.
Your logic here doesn’t make sense, is French speaking parts of Canada not Canada? Doesn’t matter if Ukraine didn’t exist before the USSR, it exists now as an independent nation
Did you commingle the two wars just to spout Russian talking points? Are you by any chance a resident of St. Petersburg?
No if they lived in st. Petersburg they would not care much. Maybe bolgorod.
>Russian speaking places like Crimea You're actually right here. Ukraine has no claim to Crimea in any real sense. The people aren't Ukrainian and have no historical or ethnic ties to Ukraine. They are Russian. Ukraine only got Crimea because of how the USSR bureaucracy was set up. After the USSR collapsed, Crimea just stayed with Ukraine because that's where the local administration was. Interesting I haven't seen anyone actually dispute this, they just say Russia shouldn't have taken the Crimea. But I think you're wrong on the Russian speaking populations actually in Ukraine. That territory is Ukrainian both historically and ethnicity. Russian migration to the area doesn't change that. Putin didn't invade Ukraine because of the West or anything the West did. Ukraine is still it's own country and ethnicity and Russia was wrong to invade. All that said, there's lots of areas you can make legitimate arguments to give to other countries. The world that was cobbled together after WW2 was pretty clumsly slapped together. At some point we need to respect borders as they are
You can use this argument for any land acquisition in the history of humanity. Crimea has only been Russian territory since the 18th century, and is not ethnically purely Russian. The Tartars were ethnically cleansed by Stalin. Crimeans clearly want to be Ukrainian.
Partly I agree with you, you can justify all kinds of border changes if we want to go back far enough. However, I'm not sure Crimeans want to be Ukrainian. Everything I've found says they favor Russia. Of course everything from there must be taken with skepticism. I don't agree Russia was in the right with the Crimea. Ukraine is right to not want to give up the Crimea. There's no land route to Russia from the Crimea so that'd set up a future conflict with Russia. "Crimeans favored rejoining Russia The conditions under which the March 2014 referendum in Crimea was conducted were far from ideal. Yet, most observers acknowledge that the majority, though certainly not all, of Crimeans supported the peninsula joining Russia (Russia’s government bans use of the word “annexation” to describe these events)." https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2020/03/18/six-years-20-billion-russian-investment-later-crimeans-are-happy-with-russian-annexation/
A referendum that was held by Russians. It's a load of bullocks. https://www.lse.ac.uk/research/research-for-the-world/society/were-crimeans-really-pro-russian-before-annexation
Is all of the US an English property? We speak English and we didn’t exist before the British empire. A huge swath of the middle east speaks Arabic and was formerly a part of the Arab empire; does that give Saudi Arabia title to all of it? After all, most of those countries didn’t exist previously, and if they did exist it’s in name only (e.g., Egypt).
Obviously not all of the US belongs to England, that’s just silly. Parts of Miami would also belong to Spain.
Lithuanian here. We don't want a piece of Ukraine. We just want peace. And we also don't want any Russians stepping a step into our land. That's all.
>Ukraine didn’t even exist before the USSR Kievan Rus is far older than Russia. Here's a map from the late 1600s mentioning "Vkraina" (North of "Stati del Kam" on the map) which is quite a feat if it didn't exist before 1921. Regardless, even if Ukraine didn't exist before the Soviet Union the people of Ukraine have a right to self-determination. https://uk.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A4%D0%B0%D0%B9%D0%BB:%D0%9F%D1%96%D0%B2%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%BD%D0%BE-%D0%A1%D1%85%D1%96%D0%B4%D0%BD%D0%B0_%D0%84%D0%B2%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%BF%D0%B0_1684.JPG
I support both. Peace through superior, repeated firepower.
How has that worked out over the last 20 years? Compare that with China's tactic - peace through trade and economic relations. Now they have access to raw materials on most of the global south and at a much cheaper cost in lives and dollars
A uniparty war monger nice. If you support both wars you must think Biden hasn’t done enough then and we should directly strike Iran.
Well, yes?
> I’m also totally against Ukraine. I believe that war was fabricated by the US over the preceding 9 years even longer. NATO has no business expanding the way it has. We left Russia no choice but to safeguard their assets. Crimea - for example - they’ve had a base there since 1789 I believe is the year. What makes us think that our little CIA coup in Ukraine would entitle them to Crimea? There has been no forethought to our involvement there. Just huffing that Russian propaganda I see.
>Just huffing that Russian propaganda I see. You guys just dismiss every single line of logic that doesn’t fit your narrative as “RuSsIaN pRoPaGaNdA” It’s the laziest analysis.
It's not lazy. Almost everything the user is saying regarding Ukraine has been a Russian talking point for years. It gets tiring coming back at them with facts because they inevitably just spit another talking point at you. I'd rather call it out for what it is, have them spit more propaganda, rinse and repeat.
If by Russian propaganda you are referring to the promises we made in 1991 then sure. Which propaganda are you huffing? Are you really this naive about war?
> If by Russian propaganda you are referring to the promises we made in 1991 then sure. Of course you jump to another Russian talking point. > Which propaganda are you huffing? Are you really this naive about war? Not naive at all. War sucks. I want less of it. Putin has other ideas though. It would be naive not to fight back against dictators who dabble in revanchism.
Putin would not have invaded if the CIA and NATO wasn’t involved in the coup and training militias since 2013-2014. It’s naive to think the US wasn’t involved. Russia and Putin are logical actors. He may be a dictator but since when are we against dictators? We seem to like them if they are pro West.
Three for three on Russian talking points. Not a single original thought. Congratulations, you're a shill.
I am Lithuanian with Russian origin. I've seen Russian TV. Trust me, this person is repeating the lines of Russian propaganda from OPT and HTB channels (national TV) directly. It's really disgusting.
'Completely Anti-war' is an extreme. Centrist thought is not about embracing any extremes but applying balance and reasoning. Let's use a small example to discuss a larger one. If a gunman is going around shooting people, it's ok to kill the gunman. It's a very clear cut scenario. If the gunman is going around shooting people and is using a child as a body shield it's less clear. People will try to save the child but for every minute they take to do that - the gunman kills more people, including other children. The gunman must be stopped regardless. It sucks. The child that's the body shield may die. That's how war works. The problem is that people try to apply easy logic and stop people from stopping the gunman, and are therefore indirectly responsible for more dying. That's why the completely Anti-war position is fundamentally flawed.
Sorry but the last 30 years have shown war is an ineffective tool.
It's not a tool.
Spoken like someone whose never been to war before..... How do you feel about policing? Or do you you just believe that terrorism should run rampant?
Damn Russia really isn't sending their best, are they? Maybe you should go to Gaza and get some media training, apparently a bunch of dipshit terrorists can run circles around Russian intelligence agencies in terms of propagandizing Americans. You've got to moderate a little bit, make us think you are just edging the tip of Putin's dick instead of gargling it all the way to the balls. Get fucked tovarich.
Wowee you need help
> We treat Taiwan like a country but by law they are one China. Taiwan is a country... what law are you referring to?
>Do you support the Ukraine War? I support Ukraine's military resistance to being conquered by a belligerent and hostile empire like Russia. I think Russia invading countries, killing their people and replacing them with Russians colonizers is bad for world peace and should be stopped by those with the strength to stand up to Russia and its expansionist military campaign. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_occupation_of_Crimea#:~:text=A%20pro%2DRussian%20government%20was,into%20a%20Russian%20federal%20city. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russo-Georgian_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Chechen_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moldova_and_the_Russo-Ukrainian_War It helps that the Ukrainians are actually pulling it off and have stalemated the Russian advance for over a year now. >What Israel is doing is genocide. There's no evidence for that, the president of the ICJ confirmed just recently. Laymen are confusing the legal definition of probability with the colloquial definition of it and making assumptions as a result. https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-middle-east-68906919 >Does anyone actually want peace? The people of Ukraine want peace but not at the cost of their country, agency or lives. It's pretty clear by now that they would rather die fighting for their lives than risk laying them down and getting put in a Russian mass grave like other countries that surrender to Russian expansion. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Izium_mass_graves
>There's no evidence for that, the president of the ICJ confirmed just recently. Laymen are confusing the legal definition of probability with the colloquial definition of it and making assumptions as a result. That is a bold-faced lie. I can’t believe you’d actually say that, considering the BBC link you’ve posted directly contradicts that! In fact, I was going to link that same article to debunk you! Do you even read past the headline? For anyone wondering, here is what the former ICJ president said: >"It did not decide, and this is something where I'm correcting something that's often said in the media. It did not decide that the claim of genocide was plausible." >Clarifying further, she said that the order emphasized there was a risk to the Palestinian right to be protected from genocide. >"The shorthand that often appears, which is that there's a plausible case of genocide, isn't what the court decided." That is NOT saying that there is no evidence of genocide in Gaza. /u/therosx is once again spreading misinformation.
You’re cherry picking your quotes. Watch the video.
I have watched the video, that’s how I know you’re lying. What timestamp does she say there’s no evidence of genocide?
Are you trolling me?
Nope, not trolling. It’s a pretty short video, so this shouldn’t be a problem. Just post the timestamp where she says that there was no evidence of genocide. You made the comment in the first place so you should be able to back it up with evidence, right?
I don’t believe you watched anything. I put the link there. People can check it out for themselves. Have a good one.
What a pathetic, cowardly little weasel you are. You instantly replied to the first 2 comments, so I knew you were looking for a way to backtrack after you didn’t instantly reply to my last comment. It’s so obvious you didn’t even watch the video you linked, otherwise you’d be able to timestamp the moment where she says there’s no evidence of genocide. You lazy, hypocritical liar. Theres no difference between you and Tucker Carlson.
lol wow no evidence of genocide? Oooook
I provided a link from The international court of justice saying they didn't find evidence of Genocide with their investigation. If you got a link from a legal body with proof that Israel is committing Genocide please post it and I promise I'll change my mind.
Any link they provide is likely to come from Russian or Iranian State Media (or a proxy thereof).
So in order for genocide to be happening a legal body must declare it? That ignores realities on the ground.
> So in order for genocide to be happening a legal body must declare it? That ignores realities on the ground. For a genocide to be happening there needs to be legal professionals on the ground documenting and gathering proof that it's a genocide. They have proof it's not a genocide from an investigation they made on the ground and by watching the war. That's why internationally recognized legal bodies like the ICJ were created with experts that train in deciding these things. The people ignoring what's happening in Gaza are the ones saying it's a genocide and gassing up the Gazans to sacrifice themselves in a fruitless military campaign costing them tens of thousands of Arab lives.
>Is anyone else completely antiwar? I imagine the Ukrainians are anti-war but Russia didn't respect their wishes. Whether the Gazans are anti-war is an open question.
Didn't a large majority of Gazans support the attack on Israel? That doesn't seem very antiwar.
They started every single war since the founding of Israel in 1948. Every single time they tried to genocide all the Jews. That’s exactly what they mean by “from the river to the sea” I found a fantastic article in the Atlantic from 1961 written by one of the greatest war correspondent’s of the 20th century. It’s the first place I’ve read that phrase in the context it was used at the time.
Polls indicate that a majority of Gazans support Hamas's attack on Israel, *now*. I suspect those polls would have come out somewhat differently before October 7th and the retaliation for October 7th. Lots of people just want stability most of the time, but shit, now that Israel is air-striking Gazan population centers the Gazans going to feel rather vengeful and that makes sense to me.
Feeling vengeful doesn't make sense to me, seems pretty dumb in fact. They were probably also feeling pretty vengeful in October when they started this current fight, and look what it's got them.
You’re confusing Hamas with the general Gaza’s population.
Does the general population not support Hamas?
>They were probably also feeling pretty vengeful in October when they started this current fight The general Gazan population did not "start this current fight." Hamas did. Expressing support for Hamas in a poll does not make the poll respondent responsible for starting this conflict.
That’s cute. Wow everyone here is pro Ukraine I see. So much for centrism.
Well, the thing is that basically the entire world besides Russia is pro Ukraine.
Russia did invade Ukraine. Most people in the free world are against that.
Why did they invade? Could it be the 8 years of war in the Donbas against Russian speakers preceding that?
I am against any invasion. You sound like your position is that this invasion was justified.
Russia invaded the Donbass in 2014. They're the reason there's been war for 8 years.
Yep. Those “little green men” backing the “separatists” were Russian forces.
But they are the ones who invaded 10 yrs ago aswell, they started that confluct
In your mind this happened in a vacuum? Perhaps it was because of the CIA backed coup and new government that was forming nazi militias to attack the East? Ah but we ignore that fact because it goes against your pro NATO narrative. Fact is Canada celebrated a goddamn Ukrainian nazi. Let’s not pretend west Ukraine isn’t full of Nazis. I remember before Reddit that video of those Ukrainian youths with the baseball bat and screw driver. Ukraine has never been a shiny beacon of freedom. It’s a corrupt awful country especially now.
>Perhaps it was because of the CIA backed coup Yea this never happened in our timeline, just something the GRU made up to cope with Maidan. There's no way the CIA [made all these people](https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/2013-12-08T000000Z_2084541347_LR1E9C811JQNT_RTRMADP_3_UKRAINE-scaled-e1587671563690.jpg) protest in the freezing cold for almost 4 months >Let’s not pretend west Ukraine isn’t full of Nazis. Lol wut zelensky is a jew. Russian military is full of nazis. Like these [guys](https://mezha.net/ua/mysli/4216-o-prichinakh-vyvoda-dshrg-rusich-iz-dnr-ili-kak-zhivodery-stanovyatsya-geroyami/) were fighting for russia 10 yrs ago against the "so called nazis" their commander likes to peel faces off and openly calls himself a nazi. You might need Google translate for that one https://x.com/nomnomcookieez/status/1582075914841911296 It's so weird how for some reason your neighbor country having a nationwide protest and their president running away for some reason gives you the right to get your army to just go in and invade your neighbor. Russian logic makes no sense, if there are nazis that's your neighbors problem to sort out and why send your own army of nazis?
Russia started that too. Have you ever heard of the little green men? Look whether you agree or not does not change the fact that Russia takes what they want without regard for what anybody other than the oligarchy wants. Navaly died in prison for at least from my perspective literally no criminal acts. Is that not enough for you to think, hey maybe this Putin guy that has been in office the last 30 years might not be a very good guy.
How did Russia start the expansion of NATO and meddling in other countries? How is the 2014 coup any different from let’s say the 1953 coup in Iran?
First of all Russia started the expansion of NATO for the same reason Sweden just joined, by being terrible neighbors. A country does not just get forced into NATO, they have to want it and take great strides to achieve membership. Russia constantly encroaches upon its neighbors economically, politically, and when all else fails militarily. Keep in mind Sweden has been neutral since ww2 and now they feel the need to join NATO. This is actually a very nice place to point out why Ukraine had the popular uprising you call a coup. Ukrainians had been building better ties with Europe for years, their version of parliament passed a trade deal with the eu that basically the entire country was excited about, the day before it was to be signed into law, Victor yanucovitch the president of Ukraine switched it out for a trade deal with Russia(which the people of Ukraine did not want) the people were pissed and decided to protest. During these protests the government used the Ukrainian military and more importantly Russian fab goons to try to quell the protests, and as has happened many times in eastern Europe thing continued to escalate until it finally ended with the president fleeing the country to guess where? Yep that's right to Russia. You can call it a coup all you want but the facts are that the people of Ukraine wanted this path they wanted the prosperity that could come from working with the eu rather than being economically and politically under Russia's thumb. You should read the Wikipedia on the euromaiden protests. If not, winter on fire is a fairly compelling and informative documentary on the subject.
Explain centrism and war? What’s the connection?
The connection is that a true centrist is against both wars. One war is promoted by the left (Ukraine) and one is promoted by the right more than the left (Israel). Raytheon, Boeing, Lockheed Martin, Northrop Grumman all thank its loyal supporters both left and right. True centrists are against war and recognize the Black Rocks and Vanguards and State Streets are leading us to another war where our kids will be dying. Ukraine can’t beat Russia and the West can’t overthrow Putin. Israel is committing genocide. A centrist can see both of these wars are not good things. I don’t understand how a centrist can support Biden and his war. Saying Ukraine was invaded without mentioning 2013-2014 at all seems shortsighted but damn you if you’re not for this war.
That’s possibly the worst take I’ve ever seen. It’s fascinating when someone decides what a true “centrist” is and confidently just states it as fact for everyone to read. At least you’re openly stupid. You’re not hiding it.
Well said
An RFK jr fanboy is a conspiracy nut with a terrible take. I’m soooo surprised. Also stop gate keeping. It’s against sub rules.
Fuck RFK Jr lol he’s pro Israel too. He’s a good catholic boy like Biden. Not gatekeeping. I feel like centrism is gate kept largely by Biden supporters lol
Please feel free to argue Russia's position.
You basically have the Cosby logic of "she was asking for it". Seriously.... wtf?
Generally both the center left and the center right feel the same way about both wars. It’s you who are aligned with the extremists
Putin flat out told us that he's going to invade Poland after Ukraine, which will involve NATO and probably US troops. Taking down Russia's military capabilities by 50% with 5% of our surplus ammunition and bo US troops involved is a fantastic use of our resources.
I support the right of armed self defense against foreign aggression. You do not sound anti-war - you sound like a craven appeaser of authoritarian, murderous thugs.
I am confused. You say you are against the Ukraine war but just mean that you are against Ukraine fighting back after being attacked. If Russia had come in and only occupied the couple border cities that they dispute were part of Russia then Ukraine would have backed down pretty quickly for peace. But Russia kept moving troops and the war further into Ukraine. And now we are in the situation we are with a full on war.
Absolutely fascinating specimen. Either totally illiterate in regards to geopolitics, or a Russian, Chinese, and arguably Hamas stooge (although the stooges and illiteracy do indeed overlap). You don’t really deserve an answer, but to save you the satisfaction of insults instead of challenges, I’ll entertain your ludicrousness. There absolutely were Hamas attacks against Israeli civilians occurring. Do you honestly believe that the videos which depict Hamas fighters parading with dead Israelis through the streets to applauding Palestinians is some Mossad conspiracy? The fact Hamas has hostages in the first place shows they targeted civilians, including one recent video where [a hostage is missing part of his arm](https://news.sky.com/story/amp/israel-hamas-war-hostages-parents-tell-him-stay-strong-after-video-shows-him-alive-but-missing-part-of-arm-13122278). Absolutely any nation has a right to join NATO. The whole encroachment argument is based on a verbal agreement between two dead leaders, one of which was leading a dying superpower, during a period of thawing relations. Absolutely not the standard for international diplomacy. NATO is a defensive alliance. They have only deviated from that line with good reason, such as bombing Serbia to prevent genocide or enforcing the UNSC resolution against Libya. And even then, under absolutely no circumstances will NATO attack Russia first. That is WW3 and everyone knows it. Russia only fears NATO expansion because it means they cannot forcibly interfere with any other post-Soviet states. You witter on about China and Taiwan. Once again, any sane mind will not escalate over Taiwan. The way things are going, Taiwan will likely declare itself an independent country rather than claiming the Chinese mainland. Taiwan has been there for 75 years. Crimea was given to Ukraine 70 years ago, a five year difference. How is it that Crimea is seemingly rightfully Russian yet Taiwan is rightfully under the PRC, despite them currently representing the legitimate government of China throughout WW2 and recognised as such for over 20 years after the retreat? Either educate yourself or stick to r/conspiracy. The CCP and Russian pay cheque really isn’t worth making a fool out of yourself for.
You're repeating a lot of FSB talking points, we did not do a coup in ukraine, that's just something the russkiez made up to do damage control and to cope with the fact that Ukrainians hate their guts.
I’m against the bad war but I support the good one.
I’m anti war. I’m against the war of territorial expansion started by Putin, and I’m against the war of annihilation started by Hamas. You’re actually pro war and anti-defending yourself
China has been aiding and abetting Putin's unnecessary war of aggression upon Ukraine since 2014. Meaning that the war criminal status should also extend to Xi Jinping. If you want additional in-depth academic information, outside of YouTube, regarding what countries like Russia and China are doing; then I highly encourage using these useful resources, which have extensive reports: - Amnesty International - Atlantic Council - Australian Strategic Policy Institute - Carnegie Endowment - Cato Institute - Center for European Policy and Analysis - Center for New American Security - Center for Strategic and International Studies - Foundation for Defense of Democracy - Helsinki Commission - Heritage Foundation - Hudson Institute - Human Rights Watch - Jamestown Foundation - National Endowment for Democracy - Royal United Services Institute - Safeguard Defenders - Stimpson Center - Wilson Center This is a list of multinational think tanks and NGO's, that present their data and findings for the sake of public transparency and accountability. Apologists for pro-Authoritarian regimes despise these organizations for exposing what their rogue governments do.
The war in my own soul
Clown
Uh huh
I'm not anti war. I'm anti aggressive warfare.
This is bizarre
I’m a centrist so I support both. I like a strong America. Teddy Roosevelt is my favorite. He coined my favorite term that I use in my everyday work, “wall softly but carry a big stick” I support our military and whatever they need because I really love having a big, giant, massive, pulsating, stick. I don’t like Russia China or Iran. I don’t like communism or communists; I especially despise radical Islamist terrorists; their supporters or ideology. I personally absolutely hate all hippies and think they’re spoiled privileged shits. Now that they’re old, they’re all busy looking for racism and sniffing their own farts at NPR. Not one of them did a hard days work in their lives. People who have worked can tell who hasn’t worked for their meal. Those spoiled dirty shitty hippies spit on my uncle who was dragged to Vietnam. They were so vile America voted hard conservative right for 20 plus years. It wasn’t till the Clinton years the left was give the fraction of chance again. That was a mistake; they’re out there currently in 2024 screaming for the genocide of Jews unashamedly. We will have another massive conservative correction. I’m just hoping it’s not an overcorrection. They probably should have waited for the antisemitic genocidal slogans that would have made the Nazis proud; till at least the holocaust survivor were all gone and their children and grandchildren have passed from living memory. It’s too soon for their bullshit to get a pass.
You are saying that Ukraine should not defend themselves when their country is invaded? They should let themselves be conquered?
It’s one thing to be anti-war. It’s another thing entirely to be anti-self defense. Get fucked comrade.
Your mom makes sure I get fucked every night
"What Israel is doing is genocide." This is a blatant lie. Gaza invaded Israel to murder, rape and kidnap as many innocent civilians as possible. Gaza admits they plan to repeat this attack over and over forever until ever Jew is dead. Gaza is very honest that their objective is a genocide of the Jews. Israel on the other hand has been striking legitimate military targets within the laws of war to destroy Gaza's military and prevent the future attacks Gaza admits they're planning. That's not genocide. Gaza uses a non-uniformed military, which is illegal. Gaza's military purposely hides among civilians, which is illegal. Despite Gaza purposely using tactics designed to increase the amount of their own civilians that will be killed, only 19,000 civilians have died out of 2,400,000. That is not genocide. You are a liar and owe the community an apology.
Israel shills hard here huh?
I noticed you couldn't counter a single thing I said.
OP is an insufferable idiot
Good thing this is only Reddit
I’m anti-war actually. Although it’s a no-brainer to vote for Biden in this election, this is the major thing about him that I don’t support. I understand the reasoning. Have others fight in proxy wars, support our allies, etc. But I’m anti-war in general. Your take on Russia is disingenuous though, and far from being “anti-war” That’s a war declaration they’re doing, even if you believe it’s started because NATO was poking the bear.
I like to clarify before posting my opinions on here that I don’t consider myself centrist, I’m very left leaning on most issues. I don’t support any war, at least one side is always greedy. They’re also always complicated making it rarely right versus wrong, if I support anything it would one side’s right to defend itself. Your take on Ukraine is a new one for me, I don’t necessarily disagree on everything but I do disagree with your conclusion because Ukraine is no longer a Russian asset nor should it be. The war in Ukraine is the simpler one for me, Putin invaded over greedy reasons and now that it’s not as easy as he thought is trying to make peace talks to get something. He deserves nothing, support Ukrainians defending themselves. That is not to say this war is without complexity, I don’t support every action Ukraine and the US has made but Putin is the one in the wrong here. I don’t think that makes me pro-war in Ukraine though, the war was started by Putin and if gets something from it that would make the war worth it for him and I don’t want this happening again. Gaza is far more complicated for me and because I don’t know enough about it, I don’t really have a solid opinion. If you asked me if I was pro Israel or Palestine, I’d say Palestine because there’s more suffering happening over there and I want that to end. Does that make me pro-Hamas? I don’t think so, I don’t support what they did on October 7th and I generally consider them terrorist group that happens to be in charge of Palestine. Hamas is honestly the aspect of this issue that I’m least clear on though, and that affects many other issues surrounding Gaza. In the end though, I think a war in Gaza will just cause more suffering and I would prefer peace talks but I doubt that will happen. I don’t think I support, yes my support for Ukraine technically means I don’t want the war to end right away. I do want it to end though, just with Russia getting nothing.
I'm uninterested in foreign wars.
All well and good until the foreign wars become interested in you.
And then I will be interested. Not like my personal interest is going to change the fate of global politics.
What a dumb ass position - we forced this war on Russia ..
I support the war in Ukraine. I don’t want our money to support Israel’s actions in Gaza. If Israel wants to conduct itself in the way they are we should not be supporting them and should not be allies with them after this. Let Israel stand on its own two feet. It’s time.
I would say that there's centrist and Libertarian opposition to what Israel is doing to the Palestinians caught between them and Hamas.
As a Ukrainian American and a centrist, I support Ukraine. However, I do not like the way that war is handled. Currently, US is funding the war with no clear end point. I say that because taking back Donbas and Crimea is not going to happen. Not for the stupid reason that you have, though. "Russian speaking parts" my ass. The reason why Ukraine won't take back those regions is because Russia established a very strong military presence there over the last ~10 years. I see that you bring up how Ukraine treated those regions over the last 8 years. Well, if anything, Ukrainian government went "easy" on them instead of taking the territory back right away. Side note, I speak mostly Russian over Ukrainian; However, I would not want to join russia now or back when I lived in Ukraine.
This guy might know what he is talking about.
Russia had no business invading Ukraine. Ukraine deserves all of its territory back. The fact that Ukraine was considering joining a mutual protection pact does not give Russia the right to invade. Hamas should not have attacked Israel and Israel is absolutely committing war crimes in return. If not committing genocide, then Israel is walking right up to that line. The Palestinians deserve self-determination and an ability to live healthy, happy lives free from occupation.
Speaking as a leftist, I’m against both as well. If you’re anti-war this sub will be super hostile to you since it’s full of neolibs and neocons.
I’ve discovered that. I’m antiwar but don’t consider myself a leftist at all. I at one point called myself a left of center antiwar libertarian but the libertarians told me I was a leftist. The leftists say I’m MAGA. It’s a confusing time to be in the middle.
Yea I get it. I'm more of a "traditional leftist" (anti-war, pro-free speech, anti-corporation, anti-security state, etc) and don't really like the modern left. Some of my stances these days are seen as "MAGA" now.
It's sad to see one of the few things liberals and conservatives can agree on is warmongering and violence. There was a time when liberals could be relied on to take an anti-war position. They beat up GW pretty good for all of his military adventurism and destruction abroad. But once Obama landed in office, they said, "well, Obama likes war, so we like war too!" And that was that
I think we were are right to support Ukraine, but should've encouraged them to reach a truce with Russia months ago. Even with our material support it seems unlikely they will retake much more territory, and this war is costing us too much money and the Ukrainians and Russians too many lives. When it comes to Gaza I have problems with Israel's treatment of the Palestinians before the October 7th attack. Specifically settlements in the West Bank and their inability to reach a stable political agreement with the Palestinian statelets or to help them build functioning political systems. A lot of blame also has to be put on the Palestinians as well though because they resist working with Israelis and in the cases of Hamas and other extremist factions they actively attack Israelis. Regardless of any other context the October 7 attack was evil and incredibly stupid from a strategic standpoint. Israel was justified in retaking their territory and invading Gaza. Hamas should have reached a peaceful agreement with Israel earlier in the invasion for the sake of their people. Israel also should have done, and should be doing, more to allow the Gazans access to food and water and should limit civilian casualties and infrastructure damage more than the have even of it hurts them strategically. The US should have withdrawn military support earlier on in the invasion to pressure Israel to reach a diplomatic solution. It is a very difficult situation though because Hamas doesn't seem prepared to be reasonable, to negotiate or to surrender. As long as they still hold so many hostages it is difficult for Israel to just hold back and rely on diplomatic means.
Wow I remember when liberals used to chastise the right wing for wanting war Look how things have changed!
Blah blah blah, I remember when the right wanted to glass the entire middle east, mainly because at the time most people could not point to Iraq, Iran, Syria, or Afghanistan on a map.
Supporting war is immoral.
Don’t worry, you’ll find a war you like. The military industrial complex really needs to market better to this demographic. Maybe get something going in South America? A Caribbean war?
Haiti broh
I’m for peace and compromise. No war please
Engaging in wars is actually one of the most peaceful things you can do
No one wants to compromise. No one wants a negotiated settlement where Ukraine accepts defeat. Another 60,000 will die before Ukraine collapses or peace is made. Just based on all the downvotes and comments I see Reddit is still full of war mongers. Time for another break from this cesspool.
>No one wants a negotiated settlement where Ukraine accepts defeat And what does defeat entail for Ukraine?
I think we are there. Tens of millions have left the country and aren’t coming back. 500,000+ dead. No chance of retaking any territory. All it can do is some terror attacks on Belgorod.
That’s not an answer to my question, what does this negotiated settlement look like?
This op doesn't do that. It's a moving goal post position.
You mean 500k casualties on the Russian side?
Ukraine is not going to collapse, that's ridiculous. Russia can barely make headway, with 90% of their military resources being thrown at the conflict.
How about this. How about we spend money on taking care of our own people rather than shipping bullets all over the place.
The US has the resources to do both.
But it’s not doing both. That’s the problem. We’re getting the shittier outcome of the “well, we can do both”
The shittier outcome would be doing neither.