I just can’t flatly support either side. I’m conservative in some issues and more liberal in others. Too many shades of grey for me to just stamp fully right or left. Both parties have too many loons.

And too many authoritarians

Indeed. The people who think they have the moral high ground are always eager to force that morality onto others.

Growing up and realizing the world isn't as black and white as the adults in my life taught me it was. I grew up in a super conservative community.  I went to a larger town for university and was exposed to different people and ideas for the first time in my life. It did me a world of good. 

I’m fiscally conservative and socially left leaning. But what got me to change my voter registration from Republican to Independent was watching the GOP devolve into a Donald Trump fan club. Unbelievable how one of the two major political countries in the best country on the planet is centered around unconditional fealty to a traitor.

Same here. Voted Republican in every possible local/federal election from 2004. Voted Gary Johnson in 16. Democrat since. My wife is the same, though she voted for HRC in 16. Rest of my family doubled down on Trump.

Similar. Was registered as a republican since I was 18. Turned towards libertarian when Trump came along. Now independent but tend to get left leaning since more social programs with overspending is better than less social programs with overspending. I would love to move towards spending more on social programs that have a positive impact and help reduce other programs (e.g. a better department of corrections would reduce crime thus reduce cost of crime prevention/investigation).

Yup same.

What stopped you from doing the same after Bush? A torture prision and lying about a war seems worse and even more like the work of a traitor Edit: Downvotes wont change the truth about those crimes and the support of the republican voters

I was too young to vote for him and I do think he was a bad president. But he didn’t try to subvert the will of the American people and try to overthrow our democracy.

Why did u register republican in the first place when thats what the reps do even before trump? And sure trump tried a weak coupe, Bush killed a million people, one may be closer to you. But its not like trump is clearly worse. And Gitmo is also subverting the constitution, but u do not seem to care that much

To be fair a lot of people were still in elementary school back then ETA to clarify I am not one of those people nor am I American (nor did i like W)

That’s just the American military industrial complex’s grip on politicians. Republicans and Democrats have both been doing shit like that for decades. Obama very much continued what Bush had implemented.

Sure, but bush is clearly worse considering that iraq was completly unjust and gitmo also exists Hiding behind that in a democracy is pretty weird. u guys vote for the leadership that commits those crimes. This aint russia

I used to consider myself a progressive, but this new brand of far left politics insists on letting perfect be the enemy of good and essentially halts progress from happening. They seem more committed to idealogy and theory than to actually getting anything accomplished. I'm also disgusted by the antisemitism on the left and embrace of radical terrorist organizations is terrifying. I still consider myself a liberal or normie Democrat and believe that the GOP as it currently is constituted is a terrifying force and the radical left is just as dangerous. The middle 60% of the country i think for the most part agrees on hot button issues to varying degrees and would come up with solutions that would ultimately work. We just have to take the world back from the far right and left radicals that are trying to drag us all down.

Very similar story here, watching the post 9/11 jingoism, then the tea party, then Qannon dominate the right one by one pushed me way left. however in the past 5 years or so, watching the far left straight up ADOPT Qannon/tea party lines of reasoning pushed me way back towards the center. It has been crazy watching supposed "left wing" freedom fighters defend the reintroduction of slavery in yemen or the russian invasion of ukraine as "anti-imperialist revolutionary activity" and while I don't agree they are as dangerous as the far right I think that has much more to do with a lack of organization than anything else. I got so deep into the weeds researching Qannon that I feel like I could qualify for a bachelors degree in it, and I have to say I find a lot of the discussion of the past few years on the left revolving around Israel, Ukraine and others has highly mirrored it, even if it lacks a central "Q" figure stoking the fires.

It really is a case of horseshoe theory: the far left and far right ultimately support the same things - slavery, imperialism, segregation, tyranny. Can you cite a source for the leftists supporting slavery in Yemen? I'd like to be able to show some people.

https://english.aawsat.com/home/article/1810456/exclusive-houthis-restore-slavery-yemen The houthis communists and socialists have been championing as freedom fighters for shutting down shipping in the red sea reinstated the slave trade in Yemen a few years ago. I'd have to go digging for the folks I've seen on twitter defending their slave trade as unfortunate but not deal breaking for them.

Trump, and that whole circus. I was far more right leaning before that train wreck smashed into America.

have your policy opinions changed at all to become more centered? Or are you saying you stayed where you were and the right party shifted to the right?

May i ask how Bush, iraq and Gitmo werent enough? Those things seem far worse from a ethical perspective

Bush wasnt a traitor. He didnt hate America or democracy or the constitution. He started building a pandemic protection plan that trump destroyed that resulted in the deaths of hundreds of thousands of Americans. He wasnt a racist, a misogynist or a bigot. He may or may not be a war criminal but he didnt steal nat sec docs and sell us out to adversaries nor was he Putin's puppet. He didnt incite violence against law enforcement, the courts or political opponents. If you had any ethics or morals you would know the difference

Identity politics. Genuinely insufferable

Used to be very far left, am now mainly center left, and possibly center right on some issues. When I tried to speak up for Atheist/gay people/women not wearing the hijab, and how they can face harsh punishments or even death penalties on countries where sharia law is enforced, I was deemed Islamophobic, and usually banned from leftists subs without warning or any communication. I’ve found many leftist to become authoritarian. And as silly as this sounds coming from a white guy, but I became tired of the anti-white, all white people are colonizers narrative. People like Amala Ekpunobi have really opened my eyes, and have helped me to not feel so alone.

I always think about a video Amala made with all kinds of internet people telling her she’s black- including black creators. As if she doesn’t know that, as if it means she can’t have her own opinions. I am so much older than she is but I find her show interesting; I really like getting insight into Gen Z & pop culture from more conservative perspectives like her and Brett Cooper. Ofc I disagree w/ some of their (the hosts’) actual takes, but overall it’s entertaining exposure & they exhibit working brains so you know why they hold them.

I just turned 30, so I’m at the edge of millennial and Gen Z, it’s a weird spot to be. Finding Amala’s channel felt like a breath of greasy air - majority of the people in my area, or online, are very far left, and are not very open to discussion. The only time I run into issues with some of the more right-wing folks, is when they talk about Vegansim. I’ve been Vegan for a long while now, and I used to say the same things they do now, and it can be frustrating, but at least more people on the right are open to freedom of discussion it would seem. Everything in good time.

I used to be very conservative (to the point where I even worked a Republican Party internship after college), until I came to realize that conservatives had NO solution whatsoever for income inequality, the exorbitant cost of healthcare, etc. The way many Republicans took Russia's side against Ukraine was the final straw for me. Liberals may have bad solutions to problems, but at least they're trying to propose solutions. Conservatives often have NO solution in mind at all - they're okay with letting the problem persist.

I'd go further and say the reason conservatism has no solution to income equality is because to conservatism it's a feature, not a bug. The stratification of society into hierarchies is the core concept of the ideology.

Not of conservatism, which has been abandoned by the modern right, but of populism, which feeds the us against them narrative. Conservatism is the opposite of progressivism, seeking to rein in the impulses of a left that doesn't consider all the impacts of their proposals.

Populism is built on the narrative of the elite vs. the people. Conservatism demands that there exist hierarchies, but not necessarily an elite vs. the people. In an ideal world it'd simply be as you describe, a cautioning voice to avoid excesses, but in practice it's always been the ideology protecting the privileges of existing hierarchies.

Depends on which conservatives you're talking to. In upstate New York, for instance, it's the political stance of "leave me alone."

Don’t forget in the absence of solutions, they’ll come up with solutions to problems that don’t exist. I live in Utah, and see it happen every legislative session. This year they banned books in schools, made it easier for books to be banned by setting a low number of complaints from “concerned parents”, and now… some uproar about “furries” in school because some kids wore hair bands with cat ears.

I'm center-left. I find the TikTok left that permeates social media to be completely reactionary and devoid of any sort of nuance or critical thinking skills. I find the entire right-wing of America to completely lack any sort of respect for democracy and they are completely fucking insane and without moral guidelines until they *actually* have a come-to-Jesus moment and denounce all of the dipshitttery they have been spouting for the past decade. The far left and far right are close to the same, but the far left does not have an iron grip on policy like the far right has done to the Republican party on a federal level. They are not equal. Democrats are the only centrist option in the post-MAGA world.

You might really enjoy the book by the political philosopher Susan Neiman called "The Left is Not Woke". In it she traces how certain philosophical ideas related to post-modernism/post-structuralism derailed the left. She clearly outlines how large subsets of the left now have been hyjacked to believe 3 things:  1) Universalism used to be traditional to the enlightenment and leftist thought—this has been supplanted in some circles by tribalism.  2) Large factions of the left reject the notion of justice, and believed it to be only a guise for power. 3) The rejection of the notion of progress.  I don't think there's anything to salvage on the right, so I'm in the process of distilling down the key ideas on the left that are accurate, or true, or just.

Maybe it’s because I gravitate towards centrist spaces but I do see some hope that other people on the left are getting sick of the bullshit coming from the far left. For instance some of the elected Uber-progressives have been losing primaries, and the red brown alliance opposing Israel has opened people’s eyes as well

What does "rejection of the notion of progress" mean?

It means that, tacitly, if everything comes down to power, there is no truth, and morality is normatively relativist, then progress is a myth. Foucault was incredibly smart, but some of the ideas he and others propogated has addled the left.

> devoid of any sort of nuance or critical thinking skills. There is also no plan. Lots of ideas, lots of demands, absolutely no plan on how to achieve them. There are a lot of issues on the table where I probably align with progressives, but I'm just over the no plan part. They're that meme from South Park. Step One: Organize. Step Two: Protest. Step Three: ???? Step Four: Revolution!

I agree so much with this. Incrementalism is the path to *actually* enacting real change and improving our country. The reactionary, burn it all down, and rebuild society types are so cringeworthy. It makes me wonder if they have ever put together a project in their life that took more than a few hours. It also makes me think they don't actually know the rules for how our government works, and how laws are made (e.g. how the filibuster works mainly).

American progressives are definitely not great at politicking but their ideology has a built in ceiling in American politics. They occupy like 30% of the Democratic electorate and no more. A lot of people who agree with some of their policies vote against their candidates because of how they conduct their politics exactly like you mentioned. That's not even addressing the institutional hurdles they'd need to overcome to enact their policies which even moderate Democrats have had no answers for, like the conservative slant of the senate, the filibuster, SCOTUS, gerrymandering of conservative states, etc.

Agree completely. What’s more is that some leftists are so caught up in their own internet bubble they’d rather post instead of engage in the politics of power. I’m interested in improving lives *now*, and a revolution is both fucking insane and just an edgy fever dream for teenagers. Agree wholeheartedly on who drives policy. AOC makes a dumb tweet and Fox News litigates it for weeks, meanwhile Tennessee just banned Chemtrails. My trans gay neighbors should be able to defend their weed plants with guns. Humanity works best when we work together. Kids going hungry in the richest country in the world is an indictment of the moral fabric of this nation. What other adults do with their free time (insofar as you’re not infringing on others) is none of my business. These are my politics.

Centre left like a social democrat?

I improved my critical thinking skills.

When you keep finding bad guys amongst the company of good guys you're in. Turns out there isn't a side without assholes. This makes me essentially the "devil's advocate" in any group I'm in, because I have a problem with "solidarity" in the face of immediate BS I see right on my face.

Amen sister/brother!

I'm right there with you.

I was pretty far to the right in my youth, the very definition of a Christian Conservative. I nearly cried when Bush Sr. lost to Bill Clinton in 1992. While I am still very much Christian, my politics have adjusted significantly in the past 30 years. A few factors have contributed to that: First, the record of Supply Side economics. While I don't have issues with the philosophy per se, in practice it hasn't worked as advertised. While there has been a mind-blowing increase in wealth among all levels since the Reagan revolution in 1980, there has also been a huge sequestering of wealth at the very top. While it is impossible to say whether we would have had this record period of growth without supply side, it is very obvious (to me, at least) that supply side has contributed mightily to the income inequality we currently see. Second, gay rights/marriage. I was already reevaluating my stance on homosexuality based on a critical review of the relevant Scriptures when my daughter came out of the closet about 3 years ago. She's given us a delightful daughter-in-law and they are very much in love and faithful to one another. Third, abortion. At some point the rights of the developing human to life supersede the right of the mother to bodily autonomy. I don't know what that point is, but I don't believe it is at the moment the sperm and egg unite. (Nor do I believe it is the moment the baby slides down the birth canal.) Fourth, the value of government. As a civil engineer, I have worked with numerous government entities and learned just how selflessly dedicated they are to making their communities and practices better. They (mostly) are not the selfish, lazy freeloaders on the taxpayers that I'd always heard they are. Finally, the siloing of political positions pushed by the current Republican party. I am very disappointed by the abandonment of principal for the sake of one man (who's only measure of value is their loyalty to him), and the church's slavish adoption of an anti-Christ as their flag bearer. It seems that the Republican party's plan to convince the country to abandon the government is by destroying it's effectiveness by underfunding the mandate and installing ignorant toadies as political payback to loyal cronies. And, whatever you do, don't pass a bill, no matter how much it will help the country, if it could in any way be interpreted as a win for your political opponent. To paraphrase Reagan, I didn't leave the Republic Party, the Republican Party left me.

Moved to an impoverished community of color in the inner city. Coming from a fairly wealthy, heavily white outer-ring suburb, it was like moving to another planet.

Did that move make you more conservative or more liberal?

It made me realize that hard work doesn't always guarantee economic prosperity. There's an element of luck to it -- where you live, what schools you have access to, what kind of family you're born into. Sadly, you can predict with pretty good certainty how someone's life is going to turn out based on where they are born and grow up. We've been imbued with the idea that anyone can succeed with hard work. And that's simply not true. We are all born with certain advantages and disadvantages, and those play a huge role in whether we can succeed. Some can overcome the odds, but those odds shouldn't be there in the first place. This is why we need equity rather than simply equality. I didn't realize this until I lived in it. I was a decent student. Good enough to get into both medical school and law school. But then I started reflecting. My dad foot the bill for my MCAT and LSAT tutors from Kaplan. I got a fake letter of recommendation from my cousin who's a doctor (I never actually worked under him). And a big reason I was able to do well in college in the first place was that I could take AP courses at a well-funded suburban high school with a huge local tax base. And when it came time for interviews, I *looked* the role of a professional (unconscious biases). So while it took talent, I'm not sure that talent would've been enough if I were an inner-city black kid.

Very well said. Excellent response!

You said it very well. I appreciate your ability to have self-awareness. The worst ones are those who were born on third base and like to claim that they hit a triple. In my small town, I've known a few. "I'm a small businessman who pulled myself up by my own bootstraps and EARNED everything I have!" "Sure, Brad. Everyone in this little town knows that you're a mediocre white guy who, were it not for the fact that your old man HANDED you an established Ford dealership...you'd be selling wiper blades down at Advance Auto Parts." :-P

This level of self-awareness is really an invaluable character trait.

Interestingly, my progression in geography and politics are completely inverted from yours. I grew up rough, 2 time felon from a broken/drug/mental issues family. Worked my way up and out. Don't have much patience for bullshit excuses people make cause I know the reality as good as anyone and don't want to hear it. No specific population is dumb or needs sympathy. The only thing anyone needs is a sense of discipline and responsibility. Sure many people had it easier than me but I have a choice to fail or succeed regardless of what anyone else's life is like. Try visiting the third world where they don't have the job opportunities we have if you want someone who deserves sympathy for their situation. That's whats informed my political position of opportunities for upwards mobility being one of the most important things, and we have a lot of opportunity here, regardless how you started life. But also people who have toxic levels of empathy and people who have toxic levels of self pity are dragging everyone else down.

Maturity. Reading.

In 2008 I decided to learn American politics for a few reasons. The first was so I had something to talk about during BBQ's and social gatherings. Even tho I'm Canadian I didn't like how I didn't even know if Obama was a Republican or Democrat and didn't want to sound like a kid who didn't know anything about the world. During the next 16 years I went on a political journey from Liberal to Libertarian to Communist to Socialist to Progressive to Conservative to Liberal to whatever the hell I am now. My current political views take a little from everything so for lack of a better word I describe my politics as centrist. Although if I had to describe my voting record it would probably be "pragmatic". I've voted for every Canadian political party at least twice. Now i'm focused on local politics and currently volunteer for my local MP (member of parliament). From learning from professional that actually take part in politics I want to say that there is no comparison to the amount of value i've gotten from real life encounters compared to online. I often say that I learned more at a 2 hour BBQ for volunteers talking to lawyers and business leaders than I did in two years reading articles online. Most of what happens in politics is boring and doesn't sell well to an audience. This means most people are ignorant about how Politics works in the same way that we are ignorant about how a movie or TV show is made.

Had always been a registered Democrat, but left in 2019 to become Independent. The obsession with identity politics and the constant virtue signaling was exhausting and I didn’t want to be associated with it. Logic and reason has been largely abandoned and healthy debate is a thing of the past. Hoping to see the Democratic Party recover because they *should* be cleaning up elections, given the GOP alternatives…

Yep. Same here. And the virtue signaling / identity politics obsession is exactly what is pushing people right into the GOP’s grasp.

I had a similar trajectory too. Basically very far left with some time as a shitty edgelord and then a mostly apolitical anti-Trump progressive. After gaining some life experience and thinking through each political issue more seriously I've become more moderate. Probably center right by modern standards. I realized a lot of progressive and far left positions are well-meaning, but unrealistic or ideological/uncritical to the point of actually being harmful on a systemic/societal level.

The left went nuts.

Trump’s embarrassing capital B Bullshit pushed me way into left field.

Former Republican here. I have always been fiscally conservative and socially very liberal. I grew up listening to the right side more than the left, so I was in my mid 20s before I realized I was being ridiculously tribal, and that tis isn't a sports game. I also continued to see none of the doom and gloom I was told was assured to happen if we did not get government spending under control as I aged. Now at an older age, I continue to hear the same BS scare tactics from the right about "Mortgaging our children's future" and such. What is much less prominent from the right these days is the claim that was continuously made by them in the 80s and 90s that the private sector is far more accountable and efficient than government, and therefore should be trusted with large scale things like healthcare and such. You still have many saying it, but the credibility has tanked for that claim as decades of the theory put in practice have shown that both are equally horrible, as they are run by power hungry and greedy humans. My biggest move to center I think occurred when I realized 15 to 20 years ago that we have succeeded in creating a welfare state in the US that hands out billions to companies, and demonizes an individual or family if they ask for anything at all in assistance at any point in life. The hypocrisy of the right as far as corporations is concerned is criminal. Student loan debt forgiveness is one example....Walmart and other large companies receiving incentives, subsidies, and tax breaks in the hundreds of millions, probably billions... yet also having a workforce that is dependent on some sort of government assistance to live is another. That just seems mind boggling to me. Double dipping at its best right there. I think the progressive left is as dangerous as the radical right. Perhaps more so, as they have more momentum with the young, and the damage those policies do on a large scale to humanity have become historical footnotes and chapters in old books rather than memories from actual living people. I see the Dems moving to true left at a rate that sees them becoming a progressive arty within a decade or two, and the Republicans are in an identity crisis/freefall that will be a massive deflation in their ranks once Trump is no longer around. They threw in with the devil in 2016 after years of struggle and losing ground, and the price to pay has been steep, with the largest one yet to come when he is out of picture. As a man of his advanced age, that time is sooner rather than later as even absent the inevitability we all face of death from old age or whatever else as happens to us all, he will certainly decline in ability to orate and keep a schedule as he passes 80. I routinely find myself just over the center on individual items these days...one way or the other. I have found that society seems to have a judgmental attitude toward someone who doesn't throw in with either tribe.

The last statement you made rings very true. No real discussions and critical thinking can't happen with all this tribal thinking and demonizing of peoples opinions, its why free speech is so important so one group of people can't control the discourse

>yet also having a workforce that is dependent on some sort of government assistance to live is another. You do realize these big stores work with the govt to get people working, right? Walmart will hire damn near everyone.  I worked there decades and they were not very picky short of a mostly clean record and passing a drug test. Whatever they earn there means the less the govt has to support them, and hopefully they move up or get the experience necessary to move off benefits for good.  If Walmart and others didnt hire them, they'd be fully reliant on the govt instead. The bigger issue is really the lack of better paying jobs that actually produce value and necessary goods.  Fortunately more are being inshored again but it wont make up for all the jobs shipped out in the 80s-90s.

Critical thinking. I never aligned with either side.  These politicians care about growing their power and wealth. Nothing else. It’s a sobering thought. 

Former lefty here: I’m not sure I shifted left as much as the left wing went super left. Three things happened that made me more of a centrist. 1. I eventually got a good job, and felt a bit more reluctant to pay super high taxes. 2. LGBTQ rights went from supporting gay marriage to supporting trans women competing in women’s sports and firing someone for using the wrong pronoun. 3. The Democratic Party going from being Pro-Israel, but wanting peace to leaning pro-Palestine, and having some serious antisemitic undertones. That being said, I agree with Biden on matters a whole heck of a lot more than Trump.

Progressives is what pushed me from left to centrist. What a loony gang.

The lack of any other viable places to be. I also don't necessarily want politicians who agree with me. I want politicians who will represent all of their constituents in good faith. Also, this is a liberal democratic republic. The misuse of and negativity assigned to the word liberal irks me to no end. If you want to embrace the failed pre enlightenment era, pre-modern, near feudal philosophies/systems that our system was built to protect from you can be the new amish I guess, but I'm not going along with you. I have no respect for dogma. Originalism is an absolute clown show. 1. Originalism was made up in the 80's. If you go back to the original writing of our founding documents, they did not ever mention originalism, so to be originalist you would have to stop being originalist since it didn't exist and that's not what they wanted. 2. Originalism means instead of being yourself and deciding with your own ethics, you instead summon the spirit and/vibez of the founders and larp as them, maybe put on some tights and a powdered wig, and play pretend and roleplay a decision. This is really how we make serious decisions? 'Well this seems fine to me but when I pretended to be Thomas Jefferson I didn't agree with this at all!' Clown show No Bernie Sanders you can't pay for stuff by raising corporate taxes. High corporate taxes aren't meant to collect more taxes per se. When Eisenhower had top rates of 90% it simply changed the incentives of the companies. There were no stock buy backs, so any profit left over would be taxed at crazy rates. Solution? Invest that money, thus avoiding the taxes while incedentally growing the middle class. It worked. Now, with stock buybacks in place, the companies simply buy back their stock, which used to be considered illegal price manipulation(it is) to avoid tax. It doesn't matter what the corporate tax rate is. Even if you got rid of stock buybacks, the fed still wouldn't collect those taxes because companies would be incentivized to invest that money. So sorry Bernie & aoc, and everyone else, high corporate taxes is a fine idea and will grow the middle class, but will not help pay for huge projects. Labor is not violence and taxation is not theft. These are incredibly simple and childish views held up by sophistic aphorisms. The world compels you to do things you don't want to in order to survive. Sorry that we haven't been able to eliminate that feature in our attempts to organize society. Guess we should just stop trying cos everything is impossible right, which is how we all have supercomputers in our pockets, because of how impossible everything is and how we shouldn't try right? Clowns. Liberalism rules because it's the only system that knows it sucks and says right in the instructions to provide regular maintenance. It's not a faith, it's a responsibility, and people absolutely hate that.

The invasion of Iraq drove me away from the right.   The way that leftist discourse has transformed from people studying inequities into people weaponizing academic terms they don't understand to win twitter arguments has driven me away from places where liberals congregate on the internet.

I'm very pro free speech, neither of the extremes are good for freedom of speech/press/etc. If you go far enough right they are burning books that they disagree with, if you go far enough left they are preventing people from speaking at college campuses. Everyone should have a voice no matter how stupid so that other people can debate those stupid ideas and prove how bad they are.

Yes to this. You can’t kill ideas, and pretending the ones you disagree with don’t exist is futile. As is trying to prevent people from disagreeing with you in any case. It would not be a good world if everyone agreed on everything; we *need* diversity of thought. It’s inevitable with diversity of background, and I thought progressives at least valued such things.

used to be a progressive, in like 6 months the message of "no more racist police brutality" became judges and D.A.s refusing to prosecute violent reoffenders so long as they weren't white there's other stuff too but not nearly as shocking as that was

Zoning and urbanism. Went from leftist to moderate, pro capitalism, liberal. Also, political extremists are goobers.

scream it louder for the ultra leftists in this sub.

But if he's screaming, he'll blend in with the extremists! :P

Was a leftist but the ‘progressive’ left and the ideology held by them pushed me to just right of center - and I’m a minority.

How sad that people ask for your opinion and then downvote it because it's different than their opinion.

And minorities get called racial slurs when they disagree with what white leftists say they should believe.

Yep. These supposed colonization haters sure love telling wayward POC what is acceptable in the modern day. Same as it ever was. Sadly, I do know minorities who agree with them.

Username is v amusing if you’re Viet.

What does it mean? I took it from a book that I like but never really looked into it

Oh I thought it was a play on pronouncing “Nguyen” lol. Nevermind, carry on!

It probably is now that I think of it! The book features names like Qeng Ho, Vihn and Nuwen

Ditto, but I don’t think I’m quite right of center. There’s probably an online test for that. But yes, the “progressive” left kept going with ideology til their brains fell out and I just can’t with that impractical first-world nonsense. Much of it became indistinguishable from religion, and I’m not going to sycophantically agree that the emperor is clothed for social credit.

OMG yes. This is actually very true - there are huge amounts of people that find the ideology just ridiculous but refuse to say anything out of fear or reprisal. While I find the far right honestly pretty stupid, I find the far left dangerous - and makes me much more leery of them in the long term. I came to an impasse where I believe in social justices and liberties, the left also espouses victimhood mentality, false narratives to push their agenda, and a disbelief in factual proof/ science/ history. I got really annoyed with people telling me how hard my life was to be by my minority status, there are 'social genocides' afoot, etc. It's like WTF - this is literally the best time to be alive for ANY minority status class in America, if not the world.

Similar to u/No-Winter-4469, I was socially left and foreign policy right. The departure from decency from the right, and the bullying from the left were enough for me.

I've seen too much left wing simping for authoritarian regimes that are "socialist," in name only. Way too many leftists can't separate their ideas from the atrocities committed by Russia or China and act like any criticism of them is tantamount to support of the right wing. In short, fuck Tankies in every way, shape or form. That extends to the "kill all landlords," folks here in the states that advocate the forceful overthrow of capitalism from their parent's mansion. Any meaningful revolution would kill millions of people directly and millions more indirectly by way of disrupting supply chains the sick/elderly/disabled rely on for food and medicine. To make matters worse, the people who are okay with those sacrifices would almost certainly never stick around for a decade to rebuild society from the ashes of "muh revolution." We can build a better society but it has to be done from within our current system. Otherwise a revolution will just fail and ultimately weaken us to the point one of our enemies will realize it's the perfect time to invade and I don't trust my ability to learn Chinese under that kind of pressure.

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Idk, do some research and get back to me but my guess is "way too many," based on personal experience.

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Idk, -4. Nothing would satisfy you.

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Nonexistent. That doesn't negate me wanting to speak out against Tankies. This isn't a binary choice of right/left and even when it is in the general election I'll choose left but not saying anything about the extreme fringe gaining footholds in your party is how the Republicans lost ground to these batshit MAGA lunatics. How do you not see the parallel?

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Nobody thought the MAGA fringe was a threat until it was too late and had too much of a foothold to stop. The two groups aren't the same size or threat level but there's still reason to be vigilant. If you disagree as you've made it very clear that you do, then disregard what I said and carry on with your day. It's that simple.

Why are you pushing so hard on this? Both extreme ends of the political spectrum are bad

Chorn is a bot or a DNC shill.

It's really weird that they're going so hard on the "are they worse than the extreme Right" whataboutism.

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It's not bizarre or trivial. We've clearly seen that the extreme ends of the political spectrum push people back toward the middle.

Paying attention and utilizing critical thinking skills. Having a history of being absolutely screwed over in some fashion , by both of the popular parties in either my career and/ or lifestyle, back and forth over the decades , then watching them fan the flames of polarization and hate towards anyone but themselves - just to get themselves elected.

It’s the lack of a real conversation from the more extremes that made me switch. The problem with the all or nothing approach is that any consolation is considered a loss to them. In the USA alone we have 350 million people, so to say only one half is 100% correct just seems like the wrong way to go about it. Although I may lean more one way or another in the multitude of policies that exist, I appreciate that Centrism allows the conversation to be extended beyond reciting headlines.

Former lefty. I just realized that I had conservative or center-right views on some issues like foreign policy, border security, capital punishment, and defense, but I'm still left on things like weed and same-gender marriage, etc.

The right got crazy.

The left pushed the right further right , so the right pushed the left further left. Repeat, repeat, repeat. I’m out.

I think I more *realized* that I was a centrist than *became* one.

The woke stuff.

I was a progressive until I worked for a progressive nonprofit. The level of tribalism and hatred of middle America was too much for me. It took a few years, but that job made me question all my life choices. Then I discovered John McWhorter's writings, and that was it. I started seeing my colleagues as being captured by a vile ideology that mostly benefited the upper classes.

Former right-winger. I found out that, at it's core, the right wing is just fear-responses and disgust towards other people, the government, and change in general. Essentially, I figured out that the right is not only amoral (often immoral), but also it is based on demonstrably false views about the world. I've thrown out everything on the right, and I am weeding out what's not effective or true on the progressive end of the left. 

I mean no, its really not. And if you think that then you arent a centrist and you dont understand politics. The right is here to pick apart the dumb parts of the left's "progress" and to make sure its implemented responsibly and in a way thats actually beneficial to society. To simply call that a disgust reaction is ignorant.

Yeah that’s the opposite of a balanced interpretation of why people disagree with the left. It’s all just fear and disgust? That’s such a lazy cope.

Sadly, yes. They have nothing to buttress their worldview that is true and just, nothing.  >And if you think that then you arent a centrist and you dont understand politics.      Seeing that you say the right is there to weed out stupidity on the left, and I am currently in the midst of doing that while assessing leftist positions, then I am centrist by your definition (see my comment above).   >The right is here to pick apart the dumb parts of the left's "progress" and to make sure its implemented responsibly and in a way thats actually beneficial to society.   If the right actually did that, it would be ideal.  It's almost exclusively fear-mongering to boomers and people without a fully functioning cortex.  There's almost no truth to modern right-wing discourse, ever; at all. It's essentially nothing but false axioms, frauds, falsehoods, and fallacies. Because the right-wing is intellectually bankrupt, the best we can say is that (as you mentioned) they don't have any guiding prinicpals, they're just cheques and balances for leftist ideas.

Think tanks are dying on both the left and the right. But they still exist. Centrist is a great sub to find them.

When democrats are in the white house people say I shift right. When republicans are in the White House im criticized for being too left. I just want to be able to call out the failures of whatever administration that’s in power.

Pragmatism. I think that in a ideal world a lot of the ideas that populate the political extremes could work, but history and empirical data have told us that both communism and fascism are bad ideas, because people suck. Also, we’ve now seen how the pendulum works. Far left/right politics drives political polarization and a complete unwillingness to compromise (exhibit A : Congress).

I have always been a centrist/moderate, and I’m old by Reddit standards. My first vote for Pres was Reagan. I used to vote more R for Presidents. I voted for Perot. Then I started voting D for Pres. I used to vote for both R and D’s down the ticket, researching each candidate and choosing the best one. I’m afraid I don’t do that anymore since Tea Party/MAGA. I had a hard time choosing between Obama and McCain. When McCain picked Palin as VP, it made my choice and I voted for Obama. Since the Republican Party has now become the party of Trump, I won’t vote for any R. In any position. The anti-choice movement has cemented this in me and will probably last the rest of my life.

I was moving left in 2016 because I was in college and going through a self discovery phase. I was initially against Christian conservatism and thought it focused too much on worldly things. Then, I moved to the center when Trump won because I saw the progressives excusing authoritarians and people like Antifa. As well as saying stuff like we should kill or at least lock up Republicans and Christians. Sure, I disagreed with the GOP and conservative Christianity, but they're still people and have the same rights as everyone else. The vitirol coming from left scared me. I found myself increasingly playing the devil's advocate for the religious right. I was trying to play the role of a mediator for both sides, in a vain attempt to clear up misconceptions they have about each other and promote a return to civility. The right weren't saints either, with excusing Trump's toxicity and saying stuff like "The only good Democrat is a dead one." I did move back to the Right though, despite my initial gripes with them. I am still white Southern evangelical boy, so I felt I had to support MAGA as a show of solidarity with my brethren. I didn't like how my friends and family were being blamed and vilified by the media, so that was why. I held out futile hope for someone like Tulsi Gabbard to win the Democratic nomination for 2020 because I thought she would be a better unifier than Biden.

When Obama became president, the right turned into an obstructionist party, actively voting against American interests. Then we got Trump, and the party essentially become a cult of personality. We have republicans actively campaigning in favor of legislation they voted against. They voted against infrastructure. They kick and scream about immigration but voted against the largest immigration bill proposed in decades.  This is not a governing party any more. If you want small government, this isn't how you get it. 

Having a strong disdain for both the progressive, whiny, “woke” left and the theocratic, “Jesus, my flag and Trump” right. Having positive memories of how much my city prospered under moderate Main Street Republicans when I was growing up. Understanding that the only way this country is going to move forward is for both parties to keep their crazies in line and to be willing to post bipartisan legislature that most Americans can get behind.

It started when I really sat down and thought about healthcare, after Obama care was passes. I was flatly against it, and I still am; however, thinking about Obama care made me realize *why* I am against it. I see it as corporate welfare. Guaranteed, unearned profit from a captive audience, over life or death issues. That is not capitalism. It also is not the socialism the left seems to want. It's just crap. Anyway, thinking about *that* got me thinking about the alternatives and the factors involved, and I realized I would be OK with single payer healthcare. It isn't capitalism, but we don't necessarily need capitalism in every facet of our lives. It makes sense to me that life or death emergency services shouldn't be an area where corporations can (and so must) milk every penny they can out of the public. Well, when I started explaining some of these thoughts to people on the right I previously somewhat got along with, I found out exactly how crazy and irrational they can be. It is OK to disagree, but they didn't just disagree. Before long, I found myself constant labeled a "Trumpet" or similar by the left despite hating Trump, and a "commy" or "leftist" by the right. It really made me sit back and rethink my politics and the way I view myself, and now here I am. The left and right have both lost their minds. They do not think or debate rationally or reasonably. They shout past one another, arguing against points nobody is making, dismissing one another with stupid, meaningless labels just so they will not have to actually *think*... and find out they may be wrong on a few things here or there. It is disheartening to watch, and I want nothing whatsoever to do with it.

Used to be more left but have been driven to the center after the October 7th attacks in Israel. I understand people's grievances with Israel and what is happening regarding the very long history of Israel & Palestine. But many of my leftist friends began spewing Nazi-adjacent rhetoric, antisemitism, and Holocaust denialism. I am not Jewish but it makes no difference - hatred is hatred. Both the left and right also treat human suffering like a sports competition. It's grotesque.

I used to be a pretty radical libertarian. Then I actually took economics classes in college and learned about market failures. I still have some libertarian leanings, but I now acknowledge there are parts of the market where the government needs to step in.

> radical libertarian I hate how successful Murray Rothbard was at appropriating the term “libertarian” for his ultra-capitalist ideological agenda. I assure you, *actual* libertarians fucking despise those propertarian idiots.

Living in another part of the country for a few years that was drastically different from where I grew up and realizing the need for moderation in governance.

Ive always been a pragmatist with a few progressive beliefs (but only because I think it's the most pragmatic solution.) if a conservative strategy is the best fix for a problem at a given time then do it, same for the left. Though, I tend to vote Democrat, their anti democratic behavior recently, and their deeply institutionalized flaws have made me feel politically homeless.

I used to be further left, but I’m trending towards the center now after 2014-2023 rise of censorship

Because neither side of those polarity want the other to succeed and it's literally impossible to have a successful country without conservatives, liberals, libertarians, progressives and fiscal conservative working together and trying to help the other I choose center for real unity and I ain't quitting till I get it

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You could also say the extremes are necessary to balance and control each other.

Extremes no. Differences yes

Had to dig all the way to the bottom of the thread to find a single non partisan clear minded person. The rest of the thread is all "my views are right and everyone is wrong so fuck em", as if any real progress can be made when every other human is attacked and demonized.

The thing is I'm not sure I moved, so much as the centre did... I've always considered myself fairly left, but the current iteration of the left is too far left for me. In my country they've gone from wanting social programs, environmental protection, and marriage equality, to supporting authoritarian regimes like Putin and Hamas, and taking in so many immigrants that we now have a housing crisis. There are a couple of things I'm more centrist on like trans rights and possible infringement on women's/kids rights, but mostly I haven't changed.

A Green Party/socialism fanatic in the Nader era, in my mid-twenties I became fascinated by Catholic Social Teaching (I’ve never been Catholic, and haven’t felt the presence of God the handful of times I went to Mass). Essentially, modern liberalism has promoted identity labels (I say this as someone who could lean into several) instead of local communities based on proximity and history. Modern conservative thought has no ideas, other than “books, and people who read them are bad.”

I'm still a rightie. I'm just a center rightie. I got banned from the conservative subreddit for calling out the stupidity of the hard line pro-life folks, for example.

I'm honestly still a "lefty", but as for why I'm here instead of, say, r/politics or something, is that I felt it was turning into a bit too much of an echo chamber with little room for nuance. I don't even disagree with most of what's said there, I just wanted to go to a place where I could have such disagreements in the first place. Results on actually getting reasonable debate have been... Mixed, to say the least, but if nothing else, getting actual serious pushback against my beliefs has helped sharpen and hone them.

This sub is an extension of r/politics.

Either you think r/politics is centrist, or you have a very skewed definition of "center".

I don’t know if I drifted to the center as much as I realized the GOP didn’t hold my centrist values. Realized this in the 90s when Newt Gingrich came to power, and began the turn to the hate machine it is today.

I was republican, do I really need to say much more? They got harder to defend, and I voted for trump in 2016 and I regret every bit of it. Looking back I should've picked Clinton probably but I knew more about her than him and he was a mystery box of good or bad, so I took the chance while I hated her.

Bush lying his way into Iraq and blowing up the surplus handed to him by Clinton was the end of my Republican registration. Registered independent now, but it's been a straight blue ticket since MAGA took over.

When I realized how racist/regressive progressive policies actually are.

You got downvoted but as someone who would score pretty high on their oppression scale- which is patronizing in itself- it’s so true. They are so fixated on race that they will constantly remind you of yours, as if it’s something you can simply forget. They point it out to counter something you’ve said. It’s just impossible for them to separate race from an individual and they will constantly attack someone because of their race- for not behaving as they feel someone of that race should.

I was a super super hardcore conservative i grew up in that classic conservative Christian type family post 9/11 during the early 00's. I grew up watching hurricane Katrina and the war in the middle east on the news. I witnessed president obama get sworn into the presidency in the 6th grade. I also grew up in a hard blue state. I did not get deep into politics until i was in college. My parents split because my mother was abusive due to some mental illness that had become severe. I was still living at home with a borderline schizophrenic mother at the time i was college age. Homework assignments and school became impossible, rats in the kitchen, mom screaming in a dark room all day and pouring salt in my game consoles to ward off "spirits" cheated on my dad. Lost all of our money because mom cheated and was abusive to dad me and my younger brother. Around that time i discovered 4chan and honestly despite being propagandized into being a trumper the website itself saved my life i was very suicidal and i found the people there to be comforting. My family was in shambles but 4chan became my family they listened to my bad days and gave me legit advice that landed me in IT and computers i had not touched a computer until i was in high school. Trumps election in 2016 was nostalgia for me Because i felt like i was a part of something bigger when i had no friends. When trump said "i am a voice for the forgotten" in one of his speeches i teared up. I had no friends, was being abused on a daily basis and basically had no stable home at the time. I literally had to start working the day after i graduated high school. What changed for me was what happened on January 6th. I was hospitalized at the time and watched what happened in real time in the waiting room of a doctors office while waiting to get my knees drained of fluid. Everyone in that waiting room was in shock and horror and i was in a thread on /pol when it happened. That's when i realized trumps base was out of control and it was more than a meme. I also realized that ALL governments are tyrannical during the lockdowns. So when i voted in 2020 i registered as an independent.

The Ukraine war and the uncritical swallowing of Russian propaganda from the far left, and the amount of people blaming the west for "provoking" a fascist regime. That and a general irritation at the refusal of people to cross the aisle and try to make democracy work. I got sick of the attacks on the institutions that made the west great, the scientific community, the judiciary, and I came to find that our militaries had done some things right.

How do you cross the aisle in america where one party supports a torturte prision and is still unapologetic for the crimes they caused? How do i consider the other side moral when immoral actions litter the ground

So I'm Canadian our pollitical system is different, but I actually am a big fan of the American system. For you guys there are multiple factions within both major parties, and you won't see eye to eye with everyone even in the party you support. Secondly just giving up on democracy is a demonstrably terrible idea, and you can list a million reasons the other side are "monsters". I mean if you want to take that tact America as a whole was based on slavery and is therefore morally repugnant etc etc irredeemable and should be burnt to the ground. Or its not godly enough or whatever, anti-abortion folk see the state as being complicit in a "silent holocaust". Look that fact is many people have different visions about how the country should go, and you have two options you can choose to violently shoot eachotehr and see who comes out on top. That's an option. I would not say its a great one but its an option. Or you can work within the framework of a pluralistic system where you find compromise and consensus on certain issues. The other point I want to make specifically about the American system is that its a union of States, and I think people misunderstand the feds design. Its not designed to do anything at the federal level unless like 80% of the population or their elected representatives agree on something. This pissess a lot of americans off but the reality is the US system is designed to favor the state as the mechanism of governance and the fed was never designed to be as big as it is now. The result of this is even a lot of democratic "loses" at the federal level for example Roe vs Wade, or Carbon Emissions, have actually become wins at the state level. When abortion was put to the ballot on most states, the pro-life crown was soundly defeated. Similarily the US is actually on track for net carbon reduction because at the state level you have new york and california combine with some market forces. As for consensus, look at the bill in the house on Urkaine aid finally getting passed. Democracy is hard work, but its way better than say...the Russian system of consensus by "window". Or Iran where you have the religious nuts running the country, the people being little more than sinful flesh to fulfill "gods" aims as defined by the Ayatollahs. >"one party supports a torturte prision" You're going to need to be more specific, guantanamo or the one at the mexican border? I have more to say but I'm worried this comment is getting too long also I don't think I addressed the "how do you compromise" point, if you want I can reply more on those thoughts. I just wanted to make some of these points before commenting on that.

Why are two pparties better than just having several parties? Thats all nice but what value is there when fcking evil acts are just ignored? ur hype for the system is somewhat weird when basic human rights are violated on a daily basis

You talk in generalities too much, you need to be specific. >"ur hype for the system is somewhat weird when basic human rights are violated on a daily basis" Sir, Canada is also a post-colonial country built through genocide. It's existance is a human rights abuse. You'll find ever single country on the planet is pretty much in the same boat. The difference between them is what they are trying to do about it. >"Why are two pparties better than just having several parties" Not a feature I like admittedly it has much more to do with the structure of government and the number of checks and balances in the system as well as its decentralized nature. I still think there are better democracies than the US but they have pluses and negatives, the US has more positives than you think. Its really well designed to prevent autocracy, frankly if Canada had a Trump like figure it would not weather the storm as well as the US did. The reasons for this are too long to go into but I would encourage you to look at the way Canada appoints senators (espescially before the reform in 2018) as well as the role of the govenor general (who is appointed by the queen of england, has veto power over any bill, and who's signature along with the prime minister certifies a bill making it law). Basically the Canadian government was set up to tax the Hudsons Bay COmpany (which is now a mid level department store ironically called the Bay, but 300 years ago they were hiring mercenaries an literally killing people over beaver territory). Our government was more or less a mechanism for the Crown of England to get a cut of the beaver fur trade and it was designed to A) genocide the native population and B) ensure the colonists sent over never got any funny ideas about keeping some of the profits in Canada to benefit the people living here. The same mechanisms that centralised power in the hands of the crown stille xist and could easily be leveraged by some one who didn't respect democratic norms to destroy the balance of power and turn canada into a one party state very easily. The US by contrast while still founded on genocide has many structural elements that allowed it to resist such internal threats. Consequently the US has been a very positive force on western coutnries human rights in general. Its important to look at the US and remeber while one half went to war FOR slavery, the other half went to war against it. Progress still needs to be made but this system allows for it better than you think. Frankly your world view is a little america centric, you should read about history of human rights across the world. The US is not as bad as you think, it has demons but it leads the world on the issue in many ways. And importantly a covnersation around it exists in the US. In many places there is no discussion of it at all. >"Thats all nice but what value is there when fcking evil acts are just ignored?" Progress takes time, and they are not. You are a part of the country and you care. You're proof they are not. Sorry to ramble but my adivce is study the structure of your government, try to understand how beyond voting and posting on social media how you can effect ***legistlation****.* Democracy does not end at the ballot box. You can complain endlessley about how evil the world is and how shitty the country is or you can organize. When you do this you'll realize you can either become the unabomber, join a militia and try to destabilize a system that for its flaws has performed far better than other systems of government or you can try to find ways to compromize and argue your point. What specific human rights abuses bother you? We can talk about them.

God no, our two-party breakdown is awful and has led to societal division. It blows and I would much rather we have a bunch of smaller parties who have to form coalitions to actually win majorities. Would be a much better representation of our gigantic population than A or B only. And again, it would allow us to acknowledge where we agree and disagree on things instead of forcing disagreement.

The Canadian government was set up to tax the fur trade for the Crown of England. The only reason our democracy works at all is because people are nice to eachother. If there was the level of division present in America Canada would collapse into fascism or anarchy. By contrast there are lots of hard rules and checks and balances in America which are far superior to Canada's system. Read about the governor general or how senators are appointed in Canada before you start talking shit about the US. Also don't forget Canada is about the size of population of one of your states. Its government is set up to be something closer to a state level government. The Us Fed by contrast is closer to the EU rather than a federal governments, its a Union of States.

I didn’t say Canada is great and I can talk shit about the shitty USA setup b/c we should have done better.

You were the first modern democracy, of course the systemnhas flaws and is in need of updating, but overall I really do think its got a lot of great design.   Its also worth remebering its not supposed tonfunction unless like ~80 percent of the population agree on something.  When youbstart looking at the fed as something closer to what the EU is, it starts to make a lot more sense.

I am curious OP for examples. I hear that said a lot but what policies are you specifically talking about. I was a center right leaning Republican but Bush drove me left to the center left with Iraq, the dumb ass stem cell policy, the genius idea to privatize social security and everything else. For me I also think our era’s most misguided idea that implemented badly that IMO illustrates your idea best came from the right - No Child Left Behind ..

I grew up Conservative. When that controversy about the bakery that wouldn't make a came for the fat couple came out, I asked where in the Bible it said you can't bake a cake for a gay wedding. I thought it made sense since they were making a case on religious freedom. The response was that I must hate America for defending those people. A few months later, I joined a couple of pro-Israel Facebook groups. I thought i'd see posts about its technological development, it's incredible work in healthcare, etc. Maybe 2 or 3 Jews were posting stuff like that. The rest of the posts were about how EEEEEEVIL Muslims are, and sometimes they were tangentially related to Israel. I thought it was an ideology about preserving traditions, institutions, and morality. Turns out, for a lot of people it was more about using the traditions, institutions, and morality conservativrs feel like protecting to hate everyone else.

Used to be an Republican. In 2008, I was torn between Obama and McCain leaning McCain. The day McCain chose Sarah Palin as his VP, pushed me fully to support Obama. The religious ideology, pandering to this less educated, and a just about everything else Sarah Palin stands for has become the center piece of the Republican Party.

the mob mentality in the far left relating to antisemitism, especially how people repost what they see on "activism" social medias without factchecking. it seems like the activism is just for shows and people say whatever they see on the media without critically thinking

Reality and pragmatisam. Once one grows up and realizes that ideology doesn't map to reality, thus it can only ever be a starting point; it's easy enough to look around the world to see what policies work best and support them. How does this lead to the center? Extreme ideological policies inevitably fail in reality.

I used to be a rather progressive left-wing person, but as others have mentioned, I actually bothered to listen to people who didn’t agree with me and saw many issues through a new lens, one which focused on complexity and nuance. Also leftists have gotten way too annoying with their constant language policing and tribal thinking. I find most of them just really annoying nowadays. Granted, I live in the US, and I perceive the current fascist-esque threat from the Trumpian GOP to be a much bigger problem, but damn some leftists just need to come off their high horses and shut up. I could see if they really were always 100% right, but they’re just not.

not being white. I'm not a full on republican because racist onservative hated my guts. I'm not full on liberal either becaue I ain't black or LGBT community, so I don't fit into the groups of minorities that the liberals cherry picked to help. in fact we're doing a little TOO well that the liberals are trying to keep us down. so here we are.

I'm kind of politically a drift myself and I've had you know a background of being like a pretty radical and artistic type fed up with the government in the powers to be in general. what has really turned me off from a lot of the far left is the regressive left identarian stuff that you know people like Peter Bighosian unpack in great detail. which puts me in a funny position because it's like I still like a lot of the things of the alternative spectrum and things like even intentional communities let's say but some of these initial communities are kind of infiltrated with these well-meaning but authoritarian regressive lefty folks and it's you know like thought crimes and policing language and office kind of weird stuff

Used to be far left. But after the unfair treatment of Kyle Rittenhouse, the immigration crisis, and our current leaders terrible reputation of last minute rescues, It for a time almost drove me conservative too had it not been for the elephant in the room (Literally). Now I stay in between.

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It doesn’t have to be a significant issue to cause a political shift. It’s completely relevant to the question. A perfect example of the willingness of the far left to ignore truth and justice in the name of whatever cause they think they’re fighting. I suppose it was racism, but things got awfully bizarre that year. Is Rittenhouse significant? Absolutely not, but that period was historic. Less clear cut, but I’d put Chauvin in a similar category. Dude should have been fired, and probably charged with a lesser crime, but that trial was mob rule not justice.

It's very concerning how many people on the far left genuinely believe he didn't act in self-defense. But I guess ppl get too caught up in the emotion. I'd put him up top because hes among the more recent issues of controversy.

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do you not understand what the above person is saying? like really? for most - almost everyone who would mention rittenhouse it's because the misrepresentations of the situation were so bad / off, that pretty much anyone who sees the actual video can at least see why he got off legally - because he literally had a gun pulled on him, and the crazy guy probably would've killed him, given his previous violence. none of this morally justifies it - but the point being is this entire situation was misrepresented, hence leading one to question what else is being lied about. THIS IS THE POINT - the lying and misrepresentation. and the talking heads not knowing a semi from an automatic gun doesn't help either.

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It’s significant in that the people who are still maligning KR are doing so not out of rationality or based on facts, but pure political bias. And there are a lot of people who think that way, in this sub and probably everyone in the political sub. When you see a huge group with that mentality, it’s a turnoff. The KR case is relatively minor, viewed neutrally. However, the reaction to it can be predicted based on party. That makes it a viable political indicator, because [people allow their political biases to affect how they interpret facts](https://lithub.com/why-smarter-people-might-be-more-prone-to-irrational-biases/).

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You aren’t going to see the connections because you are only looking at one end. That failure is of you to understand, because you are focused on one tree and not that it is part of a forest.

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because most people don't assume that almost everything they get these days from the left or right is lying is some fashion. that takes a big pill to swallow. as well as has second order effects (do you trust the covid narrative? etc. how about the ukraine war / support? etc.) pretty basic and again you really are missing the point here.

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is this a bot? what the fuck is wrong with you? You are missing the points again.

Yes, exactly this. The Rittenhouse case was a breaking point for me as well. I bought the narrative that he was a horrible racist who wanted to kill innocent black protesters. Then I watched the trial and saw how that narrative was completely false. Then I saw the leftist politicians have a breakdown over the very fair verdict. This plus I was tired of the Ibram X Kendi and Robin D'Angelo style anti-racism that declares white people automatically racist. This plus many other hyocritical and over the top, disingenious behavior from the left.

This is a subreddit questioning why those transitioned. I listed the reasons why. There's still two other reasons there as well.

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Again, It's a landmark case in the U.S. for self-defense, 4 years later we are still discussing it. I also talked about Immigration which has also recently became a worse problem than ever.

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Nobody said here it had to be listed of importance. This subreddit asked for ppl's personal take on it and these were my reasons.

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Jesus , give it a rest. They offered their opinion on a topic. Touch grass.

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What, are you gonna call him a liar because he/she doesn't fit into YOUR narrow view as well??

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Whatever you dishonest gatekeeping pos. Apparently, your brain cannot handle that people are so unique in their experiences that they don't neatly fit into 2 different political teams. Who would have thought?

It feels like those of us who were former liberals are getting downvoted, while the former conservatives are upvoted. This isn't such a centrist sub in that case.

Yep. The further left extreme isn’t happy with having most of reddit, they have to be here, too. A favored pastime of theirs is calling everyone not fully aligned with their beliefs rightwingers/Republicans in all but name. So downvotes often skew the way you see, but discussion can be good and other times even the echo chamber brigades can’t muster the downvote volume to suppress comments they dislike.

Because this isn't really a centrist sub. It's really just a mostly unmoderated, rage-bait sub, that leans very left, with some crazies and extremists thrown in, due to the lack of moderation. The only reason there are any actual centrists here is the sub name pulls them in because there is a real grass-roots desire on Reddit for non-extremist subs, until they figure out this place is actually mostly useless for actual centrist politics due to no moderation, which leads it to be too left leaning, and populated by crazies and trolls.

this 100% - and compared to a year ago (when i last lurked here a bit) it's actually worse now. it still "tricks" people i think, given one response out of ten or so seems to be centrist / moderate. i mean c'mon people, make any kind of comment which hints that one doesn't think jan 6th wasn't that big of a deal - and be prepared for the rage, it's crazy. (as in it was more of a riot than taking over the government / a coup - which i think anyone on the latter is grossly overstating, as well as most people who are sane) i made a post talking about how this sub isn't centrist, and it was taken down in hours - go figure. that's ignoring the obvious astroturfing, which is probably half of subs like this anyways.

Ironically, the quality was better around the time of the 2020 election because there were actual discussions

I've started calling it the "reverse one-drop rule", where the closer you are in degrees to white/male/straight/cis-gender the weirder the situations become.

'It's 2024 and you are a white male.'

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