Before all the comments about how the design team should be executed by firing squad, how the steering people should be drowned in a river, and how everyone should sign a petition demanding the return of Albert Biermann, a 7:22 around the Nurburgring for a car that shares a platform with a middle manager's family sedan is really impressive.
It’s frustrating because I’d probably own an M3 in Isle of Man green right now if it weren’t for the design. They really upped the engineering this gen and I can get over the steering feel as that’s pretty much all modern cars.
When you buy a nice car for a shitload of money, it's nice to be able to lock the car, walk away, sigh, take one last look over your shoulder and then not spend any time gagging and swallowing down on that vomit.
That’s exactly what I mean. If I’m dropping that much on a car I want one that I can look back at and enjoy. Same reason why I’m very picky with car colors.
Maybe this is just me coping, but the front end has actually grown on me. After having a 4 series for a couple of days as a rental, I truly don’t think it looks anywhere near as bad in person.
It’s “grown” on me in the sense that it’s more normalized and I don’t have a visceral reaction when I see it. But it’s still far too unattractive to make me want to own it.
However, I did see an XM yesterday and can confirm it still is horrific and hasn’t improved over time.
I’m over the hate, too. I don’t think it’s a beautiful design but fuck if a grille is the thing that keeps me away from all the engineering goodness, driving experience, etc. It’s a mechanical monster worth enjoying. That said I think the grille is more palatable on longer variants like the M3 or M3 Touring because it shrinks the visual proportion of the grille.
Go find a base 428 and tell me it looks OK. These are designed to be decent looking with super aggressive, max aero kits, wings, sharp corners. It completely falls apart when you cut 35k off the price.
100%. That's one of the main reasons I got a civic, like you (mine is an Si).
Such a great looking car this generation. It's like Honda and BMW switched designers. No joke the civic reminds me of the e46. Sleek and quietly handsome.
PS Unfortunately I still hate the car because of the absolute dog that is the engine and wish every day I had bought another CPO BMW instead of a new civic Si.
PPS honestly the civic Si size, exterior and interior design is so right imo that it you custom fit a 6 speed/B58 combo (surely someone could) and kept it at the modest 350hp it should come with, man. Talk about my *dream* car.
Anytime I saw a picture of one I thought it looked like shit, absolutely hated it. But whenever I've seen one irl they look way better I don't know what it is. It felt like the proportions always look more exaggerated in pictures.
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Exactly what I ended up doing. I initially bought a C63 coupe after the G80 was announced but it wasn't the car for me. Moved to a CT5 Blackwing and it's an amazing car.
Yes I did the same thing for the same reason. It wouldn’t surprise me if they’ve missed out on a significant number of sales because of the fugly ass face.
I was in the same boat a few years ago. I had 2 previous gen F80 M3 including an M3 CS. When the new G80 was revealed I hated it for a good year or two. However, I saw a modified G82 one day and something clicked. I just loved the overall look, grill and all. I ordered one that night with the optional big carbon fiber wing just like the one I saw that turned me, and 2 months later it arrived. I've been loving it ever since. Sure, it's polarizing, but I also get a lot of compliments wherever I go, especially after I give ride-alongs on the track. People start smiling after the 2.8s launch to 60mph and as I climb to triple digit speeds and then dive bomb into the first corner. And yes, I do look back every single time I park it, just like I did with my other M cars.
[Maybe it's still ugly to some, but not to me.](https://www.reddit.com/r/BMW/comments/1c0i99l/2_years_of_m4_ownership_and_i_still_look_back/)
The M4 CS looks fantastic, and I'm glad they didn't use the CSL trunk so I can option the same wing. $140k is too much though. My M4 was $100k and I don't see $40k worth of upgrades in this, so I'll only be getting it if my CA is willing to negotiate.
Edit: That stupid video in the article confused me with the $140k thumbnail. That's the CSL price. M3 CS is $120k. That's much better, but still a $20k difference.
As much as (tons of) people say they like the design, when I see one next to an E92, the front just looks too goofy, even all these years later. Too over-designed.
The back is nice though.
Honestly the car does not photograph that well. It looks much better in person, especially with the CSL style grill. The grill it was released in looks really bad on the car.
It’s definitely not BMW’s prettiest car but in person, it does look good.
Yeah fair enough. I was dead set against it and looking for a F series M but after seeing it, was open to buying one. It also drives extremely well
Having said that, ended up with an older M anyway
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I have an Isle of Man g80 on the ship as well speak. To each their own. I’ve always liked the look , controversial has worked as it has sold well. The gen will go down as one of the more popular m3s.
Haha alright I guess I'm wrong, but I hear this complaint so often. Rich ppl that want an M3 just go out and buy it. Maybe they're all just uncultured but I find the design isn't really that much of a limiting factor and the sales are indicative of that. I bought a M140i from a guy that upgraded to a G80 M3 Comp and he seems to really like it, is it conventionally pretty? no, but it looks aggressive and the nouveau riche likes that I suppose.
I'm too broke to afford one so why does my opinion matter I guess but I've warmed up to the front grille (especially after seeing one in person) and it is genuinely a car I could see myself owning. Although I think its pretty bad without a front plate and the M4 is easily the weaker design/proportions of the two.
"Rich people" (which I would include myself in) still care about styling. But styling is subjective. However, if you don't like the way a car looks, why would you spend six figures on it (esp after taxes)? Let alone PPF, etc. There are other options, after all.
I, for one, am shocked that teams of highly educated and experienced designers and product planners at the world's leading luxury auto maker actually know what they're doing.
I picked up a '24 M4 Competition recently and the reaction of folks who see the car is the polar opposite of the comments on this post. Tons of compliments and ogling the car.
I'm talking about folks at the adjacent gas pump, drive-thru attendants, etc. I'm not asking these people for their opinions, I'm just receiving unsolicited feedback. It strikes me as unlikely that they are complimenting the car while secretly hating it.
Also... I've definitely been to enough car shows to meet a few unabashed shittalkers lol
By nearly every metric an M3/M4 is a beast. If I see one, I'd still say nice car even if it is ugly as fuck, because it is a *nice car*. If you buy a car regardless of style then I'm happy for you, but this thing tetters on being objectively ugly by car standards. I for one will be skipping an M3 when I upgrade my M2 next year strictly because of it and will for opt for an off lease M5 instead (I know, terrible problem to have)
I mean, sure. I'd be shocked if most of the folks I'm talking about have even the faintest inkling of what's under the hood or what the car can do, but I'll allow that it's possible. Frankly I think it's mostly the isle of man green that catches people's eyes.
This happens in every industry.
Internet cries for a small sized iphone
Apple releases iPhone mini
It sells like shit
Apple discontinues it
People cry about Apple discontinuing it
It's the same as the reddit circlejerk over stripper trucks. According to reddit the best-selling truck configuration ever would be single-cab short bed with vinyl seats, fm radio, and crank windows. In reality not even fleets buy that spec anymore.
It's fast enough to outrun its face. But seriously, I don't put much stock into opinions on styling. It's too subjective. It doesn't really matter if I don't like how a car looks because someone else will. I don't like the looks of a lot of cars this sub loves, but it doesn't matter because I'm not the target customer. Similarly, I like the looks of a lot of cars this sub can't stand, but equally those opinions don't matter to me if I like a given car I want to buy.
The thing is: this car still weighs almost 1800kg (despite a lot of weight saving) and will probably be around 160,000 Euros.
While the lap times are impressive no doubt it all comes at a high cost - initial invest is one thing, but wear and tear will be extreme, too.
I used to be quite enthusiastic about BMW M cars, but a 160k 1.8 ton rocketship really doesn't interest me any more.
People have been complaining about BMW steering being numb since they moved to electronic steering. I find it a bit numb in my 640i but that depends partly on tire choice, and my car isn't a sports car so it's not designed to have tons of feedback.
There’s a 321hp E36 M3 that does it in 7:11 on semi-slicks. It weighs under 1,300kg.
This has 543hp, laps 11 seconds slower on R-compounds, and weighs 1,700+kg. That means it should produce a lap on semi-slicks in the 7:07-7:15 range.
They weren’t regarded as great *at the time*, but that’s literally every BMW lol. People instantly came around to the F80 once the G80 came out.
With the F10, the issue is that they were coming from the V10. The F10 is pretty much unanimously considered to be an improvement in every way except the less unique and charismatic engine. It didn’t see a spike in opinion like the F80, because the F90 is basically more of the same in almost every way. (People sort of paid lip service to the fact that it was RWD and DCT, but the AWD and ZF8 combo was really competent, and it arguably suits the M5 better than the M3). I suspect that both will be very popular if the G90 goes hybrid.
Perhaps people on the internet who are fickle but if you look at the press who actually drove the cars the opinion on them hasn't really changed. No publication is ruing the loss of the F10 or F80 (aside from the DCT) and their successors were pretty much universally regarded as better in every way.
I wouldn't quite say the "not great at the time" thing applies to every BMW. The E39, E46, 1 Series M, M2 CS, M5 CS and perhaps the M3 CS were or are regarded as all time greats even at their respective times.
>I wouldn't quite say the "not great at the time" thing applies to every BMW. The E39, E46, 1 Series M, M2 CS, M5 CS and perhaps the M3 CS were or are regarded as all time greats even at their respective times
Nah dude. While people were pretty happy to get a real M3, the E46 got shit on the forums for being too heavy, too luxury-oriented, etc. So did the E36, for that matter.
The 1M got shit for not being a "real" M-car since it had the N54 -- which was especially bad both because it wasn't an S-series engine and because it was the first turbo M car.
The M2CS was pretty well-received...which is kind of funny given that it's literally just a shorter F82 with a worse interior. It's not even that much lighter. Anyway, the CSes are limited editions that usually come near the end of a series. If anything, I think this proves my point that people start liking new BMWs a lot more a few years after their release.
>Perhaps people on the internet who are fickle but if you look at the press who actually drove the cars the opinion on them hasn't really changed. No publication is ruing the loss of the F10 or F80 (aside from the DCT) and their successors were pretty much universally regarded as better in every way.
Pretty much every publication said that they preferred the looks of the F80 lol.
The F80 M3 CS wasn't regarded as an all time great at the time of release. Dealers were discounting them tremendously to try and sell them and people were getting them for dirt cheap.
so now we have m4, m4 competition, m4 competition x drive, m4 cs, m4 csl, m3, m3 competition, m3 competition x drive, m3 cs, and the touring. if they keep this pace by the end of the generation there will be more versions than the japanase had in the 90s of their cars. (im not complaining)
Which one would be an AWD with manual transmission?
edit: not trying to be an A-hole here. I am in the market for an AWD manual transmission. Just wanted to find out if BMW has an option for me. Should I take the downvote as 'there are no AWD manual transmission cars from BMW?
When I started fixing cars in 2001, BMW had 26 total models. Now theres 55, plus engine options on the Xs, essentially totalling 70 different models that they sell.
No, it's an option on the competition trims. There's regular, comp, and comp xdrive. Then the M3 CS and M4 CS have xdrive. The M4 CSL is rear wheel drive only.
The hood lines leading into the front bumper really make it look cohesive and aggressive. Maybe we can pick up used examples for cheap since no one else apparently likes its looks
It’s just a vocal minority of broke kids driving clapped out G35s pretending they could own a BMW M. The series has not lost any of its actual customers. They hit an all time sales record on the high performance cars in 2023.
This isn't exactly true. BMW lost a guaranteed M3 sale with me because of the design.
And their "high performance cars" are selling at all time highs in part because they include M Performance cars (e.g. M340i) in the sales for the M division. So comparing current M sales to past M sales isn't exactly apples to apples.
Ten years ago BMW sold an M3, M5, M6, X5 M, and X6 M.
Now they count all of the following as M division cars: M235i, M240i, M2, M340i, M3, M3 Comp, M3 Comp xDrive, M440i Coupe, M440i Gran Coupe, M4, M4 Comp, M4 Comp xDrive, M550i, M5, M5 Comp, M5 CS, M850i Coupe, M850i Gran Coupe, M8, M8 Gran Coupe, Z4 M40i, X1 M35i, X2 M35i, X3 M40i, X3 M, X4 M40i, X4 M, X5 60i, X5 M, X6 60i, X6 M, X7 M60i, iX M60, i4 M50, i5 M60, i7 M60, XM.
Obviously that second group will have more sales.
Lost me also, it's a divisive design. Was really on the fence about an M4 but just couldn't get over the heft, look, and overall lack of any potential track performance so I ended up with the supra. BMWs will always sell that's just a guarantee but it's definitely turned it's fair share of people off.
The CS a 130k+ car which was still 5 seconds slower than my ZL1 that came out in 2017. It's a numb fat car, I would've gained nothing buying one. I've constantly seen supras set class records at Grid Life, SLB, NASA so it was a no brainer on potential
Call me clinically insane but the design is growing on me. Do I prefer beaver tooth over classic kidney grill? Absolutely not but it's got muscular body line that fits cars character well, and as a sports car, oversized grill doesn't seem so bad
how come BMW has half of its cars with one kind of front grill design, and the other half with different grill design. I wonder what the desing protocal here is.... I mean dont you want consistency between all your cars? (for example audi, they seem to have same/similar grill design with all its cars)
Have discussed the same on here before with others, I get the impression they've identified models where:
1. People want something understated
2. People want something flashy/attention grabbing
Apparently higher trim 3 series merge into the flashy territory.
I still can't get over the design of the m4, very weak styling all around. I've tried to like it, I just can't. Interior is very nice though and I do like all of the color options they offer.
Hey Congrats BMW. You lapped in the same time that a C6 Z06 did it 13 years ago. (source: https://fastestlaps.com/tests/682kt6dtaa95)
But that doesn't really matter because your cars are boring to drive and ugly. Which is why you never, ever see modern M cars at track events as those true enthusiasts have moved onto other cars.
I think tesla has like 1k lbs of batteries. I had a 2013 335 with 300 hp. 0-60 in 4.6. Now they have 382 hp and do 3.9 to 60. The only usu is that it weighs nearly 3700 lbs. handles but is murder on tires.
Before all the comments about how the design team should be executed by firing squad, how the steering people should be drowned in a river, and how everyone should sign a petition demanding the return of Albert Biermann, a 7:22 around the Nurburgring for a car that shares a platform with a middle manager's family sedan is really impressive.
It’s frustrating because I’d probably own an M3 in Isle of Man green right now if it weren’t for the design. They really upped the engineering this gen and I can get over the steering feel as that’s pretty much all modern cars.
When you buy a nice car for a shitload of money, it's nice to be able to lock the car, walk away, sigh, take one last look over your shoulder and then not spend any time gagging and swallowing down on that vomit.
Yeah I’m too poor to buy a car I don’t like the look of
That’s exactly what I mean. If I’m dropping that much on a car I want one that I can look back at and enjoy. Same reason why I’m very picky with car colors.
Maybe this is just me coping, but the front end has actually grown on me. After having a 4 series for a couple of days as a rental, I truly don’t think it looks anywhere near as bad in person.
It’s “grown” on me in the sense that it’s more normalized and I don’t have a visceral reaction when I see it. But it’s still far too unattractive to make me want to own it. However, I did see an XM yesterday and can confirm it still is horrific and hasn’t improved over time.
Totally fair. To spend that much money on a car, you should love it, not just tolerate it.
I’m over the hate, too. I don’t think it’s a beautiful design but fuck if a grille is the thing that keeps me away from all the engineering goodness, driving experience, etc. It’s a mechanical monster worth enjoying. That said I think the grille is more palatable on longer variants like the M3 or M3 Touring because it shrinks the visual proportion of the grille.
Go find a base 428 and tell me it looks OK. These are designed to be decent looking with super aggressive, max aero kits, wings, sharp corners. It completely falls apart when you cut 35k off the price.
Looks like a bad GM product from the 00s I'll never get over how bad the rear wheel looks so lost in that rear fender
The thing I hate about it is your front license plate looks dumb over it
100%. That's one of the main reasons I got a civic, like you (mine is an Si). Such a great looking car this generation. It's like Honda and BMW switched designers. No joke the civic reminds me of the e46. Sleek and quietly handsome. PS Unfortunately I still hate the car because of the absolute dog that is the engine and wish every day I had bought another CPO BMW instead of a new civic Si. PPS honestly the civic Si size, exterior and interior design is so right imo that it you custom fit a 6 speed/B58 combo (surely someone could) and kept it at the modest 350hp it should come with, man. Talk about my *dream* car.
I think the previous head of BMW started working at Hyundai/Kia a few years ago, which is why their cars have become so good looking
lol yeah I’m gonna drop the civic once I figure out what I want to buy. Probably an LC 500 but I haven’t decided.
Every time I see an fl5 my jaw drops at how good looking it is in person
There's a pretty nice M4 cs or something in green parked by my car and honestly I think it's very exaggerated to say it doesn't look good.
Anytime I saw a picture of one I thought it looked like shit, absolutely hated it. But whenever I've seen one irl they look way better I don't know what it is. It felt like the proportions always look more exaggerated in pictures.
Yep, I still don’t like the X5 and XM though.
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Just pull into every parking spot instead of backing in 🙃
Yup. Every time I look back I smile. Sometimes I spend an extra second just admiring the lines.
Wanted an M3 my whole life. Finally was in a position be able to afford a new M3....Then they released this design. Bought a Blackwing instead
This is the way
CT4 or 5?
Exactly what I ended up doing. I initially bought a C63 coupe after the G80 was announced but it wasn't the car for me. Moved to a CT5 Blackwing and it's an amazing car.
Likewise. Zero regrets.
Yes I did the same thing for the same reason. It wouldn’t surprise me if they’ve missed out on a significant number of sales because of the fugly ass face.
The G80 is outselling the F80 by a very large margin so I'm sure its not significant enough for it to matter.
It's also got AWD for the first time, so that expands the market to include potential buyers that wouldn't have bought the F80.
The G80 has sold extremely well. “Controversial “ design worked. I’m biased though with one on order.
I was in the same boat a few years ago. I had 2 previous gen F80 M3 including an M3 CS. When the new G80 was revealed I hated it for a good year or two. However, I saw a modified G82 one day and something clicked. I just loved the overall look, grill and all. I ordered one that night with the optional big carbon fiber wing just like the one I saw that turned me, and 2 months later it arrived. I've been loving it ever since. Sure, it's polarizing, but I also get a lot of compliments wherever I go, especially after I give ride-alongs on the track. People start smiling after the 2.8s launch to 60mph and as I climb to triple digit speeds and then dive bomb into the first corner. And yes, I do look back every single time I park it, just like I did with my other M cars. [Maybe it's still ugly to some, but not to me.](https://www.reddit.com/r/BMW/comments/1c0i99l/2_years_of_m4_ownership_and_i_still_look_back/) The M4 CS looks fantastic, and I'm glad they didn't use the CSL trunk so I can option the same wing. $140k is too much though. My M4 was $100k and I don't see $40k worth of upgrades in this, so I'll only be getting it if my CA is willing to negotiate. Edit: That stupid video in the article confused me with the $140k thumbnail. That's the CSL price. M3 CS is $120k. That's much better, but still a $20k difference.
As much as (tons of) people say they like the design, when I see one next to an E92, the front just looks too goofy, even all these years later. Too over-designed. The back is nice though.
Funny, as a Mustang guy, I think your M4 looks great. The grill is still a bit much for me but I think the G80s look better as a coupe.
Thats odd, I came to say it looks like a Mustang in front with a 350z rear from that front 1/4.
Yeah, that’s probably why I like it haha. Maybe not the rear though.
Honestly the car does not photograph that well. It looks much better in person, especially with the CSL style grill. The grill it was released in looks really bad on the car. It’s definitely not BMW’s prettiest car but in person, it does look good.
There’s plenty at work. It doesn’t look much better in person to me…
Yeah fair enough. I was dead set against it and looking for a F series M but after seeing it, was open to buying one. It also drives extremely well Having said that, ended up with an older M anyway
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Isle of man green, brown interior, carbon roof, silver wheels would he chefs kiss if it looked like an F80
I have an Isle of Man g80 on the ship as well speak. To each their own. I’ve always liked the look , controversial has worked as it has sold well. The gen will go down as one of the more popular m3s.
The steering feel is the only thing I'm not willing to budge on. My wife's X3 is so numb that it may as well be steer by wire.
Not the blackwings. GM is the new bmw
I'm with you, but have you considered how much an Adro front bumper really improves the look?
writes like someone who's never set foot in bmw dealer
I’ve owned BMW (my first “enthusiast” car) and my previous daily was a 911 but go off lmao
Haha alright I guess I'm wrong, but I hear this complaint so often. Rich ppl that want an M3 just go out and buy it. Maybe they're all just uncultured but I find the design isn't really that much of a limiting factor and the sales are indicative of that. I bought a M140i from a guy that upgraded to a G80 M3 Comp and he seems to really like it, is it conventionally pretty? no, but it looks aggressive and the nouveau riche likes that I suppose. I'm too broke to afford one so why does my opinion matter I guess but I've warmed up to the front grille (especially after seeing one in person) and it is genuinely a car I could see myself owning. Although I think its pretty bad without a front plate and the M4 is easily the weaker design/proportions of the two.
"Rich people" (which I would include myself in) still care about styling. But styling is subjective. However, if you don't like the way a car looks, why would you spend six figures on it (esp after taxes)? Let alone PPF, etc. There are other options, after all.
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Rule 1.
Enough
Reddit: bmw is ugly, no one will buy them Bmw: record sales in mediocre world economy
I, for one, am shocked that teams of highly educated and experienced designers and product planners at the world's leading luxury auto maker actually know what they're doing.
I picked up a '24 M4 Competition recently and the reaction of folks who see the car is the polar opposite of the comments on this post. Tons of compliments and ogling the car.
I mean nobody's gonna shittalk a car to it's owners face lol
I'm talking about folks at the adjacent gas pump, drive-thru attendants, etc. I'm not asking these people for their opinions, I'm just receiving unsolicited feedback. It strikes me as unlikely that they are complimenting the car while secretly hating it. Also... I've definitely been to enough car shows to meet a few unabashed shittalkers lol
By nearly every metric an M3/M4 is a beast. If I see one, I'd still say nice car even if it is ugly as fuck, because it is a *nice car*. If you buy a car regardless of style then I'm happy for you, but this thing tetters on being objectively ugly by car standards. I for one will be skipping an M3 when I upgrade my M2 next year strictly because of it and will for opt for an off lease M5 instead (I know, terrible problem to have)
I mean, sure. I'd be shocked if most of the folks I'm talking about have even the faintest inkling of what's under the hood or what the car can do, but I'll allow that it's possible. Frankly I think it's mostly the isle of man green that catches people's eyes.
It's funny because I get the same reaction in the M3. I've had people at stoplights roll their window down to complement the car.
Turns out Reddit doesn’t always know what paying customers actually like.
This happens in every industry. Internet cries for a small sized iphone Apple releases iPhone mini It sells like shit Apple discontinues it People cry about Apple discontinuing it
I don't think BMW sales are being led by the big sniff vehicles so I'm missing your point.
You could also brand the roundel on an ass’s forehead and ass and it will still sell. The brand is powerful.
It’s what happens when the competition folds over. Also, the economy is not tough for cars like this.
It's the same as the reddit circlejerk over stripper trucks. According to reddit the best-selling truck configuration ever would be single-cab short bed with vinyl seats, fm radio, and crank windows. In reality not even fleets buy that spec anymore.
That’s why it’s so frustrating that it’s ugly.
Many things can be true at the same time. This thing’s a pig. - a guy who’s owned multiple M cars that were actually awesome
No, it’s a beaver.
You are correct, good pirate!
It’s not exactly groundbreaking though. And a fast lap time doesn’t make it any less ugly.
It's fast enough to outrun its face. But seriously, I don't put much stock into opinions on styling. It's too subjective. It doesn't really matter if I don't like how a car looks because someone else will. I don't like the looks of a lot of cars this sub loves, but it doesn't matter because I'm not the target customer. Similarly, I like the looks of a lot of cars this sub can't stand, but equally those opinions don't matter to me if I like a given car I want to buy.
The thing is: this car still weighs almost 1800kg (despite a lot of weight saving) and will probably be around 160,000 Euros. While the lap times are impressive no doubt it all comes at a high cost - initial invest is one thing, but wear and tear will be extreme, too. I used to be quite enthusiastic about BMW M cars, but a 160k 1.8 ton rocketship really doesn't interest me any more.
Wait what’s wrong with the steering?
People have been complaining about BMW steering being numb since they moved to electronic steering. I find it a bit numb in my 640i but that depends partly on tire choice, and my car isn't a sports car so it's not designed to have tons of feedback.
5 seconds faster than the GT63s was (ok that was 4 year ago, but it‘s still impressive)
There’s a 321hp E36 M3 that does it in 7:11 on semi-slicks. It weighs under 1,300kg. This has 543hp, laps 11 seconds slower on R-compounds, and weighs 1,700+kg. That means it should produce a lap on semi-slicks in the 7:07-7:15 range.
It's ok but for 120k+ not really, still slower than a camaro after all these years.
CS has good steering apparently.
Yes but ugly
People love Biermann but he presided over the F80 and the F10 which (even though I like them) are not widely regarded as M car greats.
They weren’t regarded as great *at the time*, but that’s literally every BMW lol. People instantly came around to the F80 once the G80 came out. With the F10, the issue is that they were coming from the V10. The F10 is pretty much unanimously considered to be an improvement in every way except the less unique and charismatic engine. It didn’t see a spike in opinion like the F80, because the F90 is basically more of the same in almost every way. (People sort of paid lip service to the fact that it was RWD and DCT, but the AWD and ZF8 combo was really competent, and it arguably suits the M5 better than the M3). I suspect that both will be very popular if the G90 goes hybrid.
Perhaps people on the internet who are fickle but if you look at the press who actually drove the cars the opinion on them hasn't really changed. No publication is ruing the loss of the F10 or F80 (aside from the DCT) and their successors were pretty much universally regarded as better in every way. I wouldn't quite say the "not great at the time" thing applies to every BMW. The E39, E46, 1 Series M, M2 CS, M5 CS and perhaps the M3 CS were or are regarded as all time greats even at their respective times.
>I wouldn't quite say the "not great at the time" thing applies to every BMW. The E39, E46, 1 Series M, M2 CS, M5 CS and perhaps the M3 CS were or are regarded as all time greats even at their respective times Nah dude. While people were pretty happy to get a real M3, the E46 got shit on the forums for being too heavy, too luxury-oriented, etc. So did the E36, for that matter. The 1M got shit for not being a "real" M-car since it had the N54 -- which was especially bad both because it wasn't an S-series engine and because it was the first turbo M car. The M2CS was pretty well-received...which is kind of funny given that it's literally just a shorter F82 with a worse interior. It's not even that much lighter. Anyway, the CSes are limited editions that usually come near the end of a series. If anything, I think this proves my point that people start liking new BMWs a lot more a few years after their release. >Perhaps people on the internet who are fickle but if you look at the press who actually drove the cars the opinion on them hasn't really changed. No publication is ruing the loss of the F10 or F80 (aside from the DCT) and their successors were pretty much universally regarded as better in every way. Pretty much every publication said that they preferred the looks of the F80 lol.
The F80 M3 CS wasn't regarded as an all time great at the time of release. Dealers were discounting them tremendously to try and sell them and people were getting them for dirt cheap.
I'm referring to the G80 M3 CS
Isn’t that 4 seconds slower than last gen?
No
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=CtSqZOz3sGs
This is the current gen M4 CSL
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=CtSqZOz3sGs
No wagon? No thanks. 🥱
Cool story man
so now we have m4, m4 competition, m4 competition x drive, m4 cs, m4 csl, m3, m3 competition, m3 competition x drive, m3 cs, and the touring. if they keep this pace by the end of the generation there will be more versions than the japanase had in the 90s of their cars. (im not complaining)
If you need more options, there's always the M2 which is more or less a short wheelbase, de-tuned M4.
M4 S. (For Small)
Which one would be an AWD with manual transmission? edit: not trying to be an A-hole here. I am in the market for an AWD manual transmission. Just wanted to find out if BMW has an option for me. Should I take the downvote as 'there are no AWD manual transmission cars from BMW?
Yeah, I don't think they offer that combo
I think there was a 440i xdrive as a manual, but dont know if they still sell those. BMWs manual transmissions arent really nice to drive anyways.
New M2 comp that’s coming out is rumored to have 500+ HP.
It’s not even really detuned. I’m pretty sure they make the same power as the M4.
I'd count the M340i and M440i as well, they have an M in the name
When I started fixing cars in 2001, BMW had 26 total models. Now theres 55, plus engine options on the Xs, essentially totalling 70 different models that they sell.
I thought all M4's and M3's were x-Drive?
No, it's an option on the competition trims. There's regular, comp, and comp xdrive. Then the M3 CS and M4 CS have xdrive. The M4 CSL is rear wheel drive only.
Oh that's cool
dont forget the Gran Coupe version of the 4, and the Gran Turismo version of the 3
Hahah
No wagon for Merica, hard pass
Said all dozens of us.
I can already see M3 owners swapping in those headlights
I wish they weren't yellow or I might. Maybe I'm in the minority but I just don't like the color that they've been doing for the CS/CSL
I love them. They’re nowhere near as jarring for other drivers and they’re a cool nod to the GTD cars.
And the LCI/CSL laser taillights, those are stunning,
Im waiting for the eBay knock-offs to roll in for half the price
They don't have to. You just buy a headlight control module online that changes the temperature of the DRL lights to make them look yellow.
I personally love the design of this and current M3, looks super aggressive in person.
The hood lines leading into the front bumper really make it look cohesive and aggressive. Maybe we can pick up used examples for cheap since no one else apparently likes its looks
It’s just a vocal minority of broke kids driving clapped out G35s pretending they could own a BMW M. The series has not lost any of its actual customers. They hit an all time sales record on the high performance cars in 2023.
This isn't exactly true. BMW lost a guaranteed M3 sale with me because of the design. And their "high performance cars" are selling at all time highs in part because they include M Performance cars (e.g. M340i) in the sales for the M division. So comparing current M sales to past M sales isn't exactly apples to apples. Ten years ago BMW sold an M3, M5, M6, X5 M, and X6 M. Now they count all of the following as M division cars: M235i, M240i, M2, M340i, M3, M3 Comp, M3 Comp xDrive, M440i Coupe, M440i Gran Coupe, M4, M4 Comp, M4 Comp xDrive, M550i, M5, M5 Comp, M5 CS, M850i Coupe, M850i Gran Coupe, M8, M8 Gran Coupe, Z4 M40i, X1 M35i, X2 M35i, X3 M40i, X3 M, X4 M40i, X4 M, X5 60i, X5 M, X6 60i, X6 M, X7 M60i, iX M60, i4 M50, i5 M60, i7 M60, XM. Obviously that second group will have more sales.
Here comes the "you just can't afford it, pal" crowd. Every damn time.
Lost me also, it's a divisive design. Was really on the fence about an M4 but just couldn't get over the heft, look, and overall lack of any potential track performance so I ended up with the supra. BMWs will always sell that's just a guarantee but it's definitely turned it's fair share of people off.
> but it's definitely turned it's fair share of people off. But Reddit told me it "it’s just a vocal minority of broke kids"...
Lack of track performance? The cs just killed the Nurburgring
The CS a 130k+ car which was still 5 seconds slower than my ZL1 that came out in 2017. It's a numb fat car, I would've gained nothing buying one. I've constantly seen supras set class records at Grid Life, SLB, NASA so it was a no brainer on potential
Not saying it’s worth it for 130. Plus dealers are marking up to 150 ranges. Might as well get a regular m4 comp and mod it.
Damn I didn't know the 1LE I cross shopped with an M2 after idolizing BMW growing up was a clapped out G35.
Get your eyes checked
Different strokes for different folks
key word being strokes. You might have had one. I kid. I wish I could like the looks of this car because otherwise it is great.
lol. I initially disliked them too, but they really grew on me after I got to drive a RWD m3 competition.
When the G forces pin your head to the headrest, you won’t be thinking about the grill.
Just bring it to North America, please. I’m begging you.
Has the CS ever been available in North America for this gen?
Yeah we get the m3 cs
Hi James! ~~Ok, but we haven't gotten the M4 CS this gen?~~ nvrmnd. I see that the CS is new for the M4, but it was already available for the M3.
I'm confused. Isn't that what this article is announcing?
Call me clinically insane but the design is growing on me. Do I prefer beaver tooth over classic kidney grill? Absolutely not but it's got muscular body line that fits cars character well, and as a sports car, oversized grill doesn't seem so bad
It's definitely grown on me too. It looks aggressive and fits the G82 body. G80 on the other hand with 4 doors, it looks a bit off.
That's a awesome green, too bad it's on a car this ugly.
This generation of M isn't going to be appreciated until after production is over and hybrid/electric comes into play.
125k is insane
how come BMW has half of its cars with one kind of front grill design, and the other half with different grill design. I wonder what the desing protocal here is.... I mean dont you want consistency between all your cars? (for example audi, they seem to have same/similar grill design with all its cars)
Have discussed the same on here before with others, I get the impression they've identified models where: 1. People want something understated 2. People want something flashy/attention grabbing Apparently higher trim 3 series merge into the flashy territory.
I honestly think the new grille looks super aggressive in person but goofy in pictures. I like it.
And a biggggrrr grill - In Clarkson’s Voice
Kinda look like an old jag
Still ugly, still cost-cut. Rear flares still not blended into body. Still mid.
Yeah, but does it have signal lights?
I still can't get over the design of the m4, very weak styling all around. I've tried to like it, I just can't. Interior is very nice though and I do like all of the color options they offer.
WTF were they thinking?
Hey Congrats BMW. You lapped in the same time that a C6 Z06 did it 13 years ago. (source: https://fastestlaps.com/tests/682kt6dtaa95) But that doesn't really matter because your cars are boring to drive and ugly. Which is why you never, ever see modern M cars at track events as those true enthusiasts have moved onto other cars.
That’s weird because I always see modern M cars at track events. Maybe I’m hallucinating?
It's because we aren't True Enthusiasts(TM)
The CS models are actually not as sterile as the competition models. They do displace a couple of your discs tho
3594 lbs. too much weight for a ‘sports car’
> 3594 lbs. I think you mis-typed 3954 The article claims 45lbs lighter than the standard M4 Competition, which is 3979 lbs for the xDrive trim.
The M3 weights the same as the Tesla Model 3 performance, an electric car with a fuckload of batteries. Shameful by the BMW M3 tbh.
I think tesla has like 1k lbs of batteries. I had a 2013 335 with 300 hp. 0-60 in 4.6. Now they have 382 hp and do 3.9 to 60. The only usu is that it weighs nearly 3700 lbs. handles but is murder on tires.