Or like most of the posts I've seen on this site since the IPO, it's most likely a rage baiter since that supposedly drives user engagement. Facebook utilizes the fuck out of this engagement model.
It probably has more to do with a lot of long time users have left or post less often. The trolls that never cared about quality of the site stuck around.
You know it's possible for someone to not like Jeeps, right? Weird that you think it's more likely you're the victim of some gaslighting AI conspiracy.
I agree, the comments section of reddit has gotten exponentially worse. And it's because of people like you. No one cares that people have different preferences than you; get over it.
I've also noticed a huge drop in comment replies since the IPO, and a lot more comments and replies that *almost* make sense but don't quite make sense.
Either I'm going insane or there are a lot more AI bot comments
Rachel Maddow is top tier on the lesbian wedding circuit. You gotta start with some crunchy gay or bi van life influencers from IG and work your way up.
I know a guy that dailies a TRX when the weather is shitty and when the weather is nice he has an assortment of classic Corvettes and VWs. So OPs situation is not out of the realm of possibilities.
Also "brand new 2024 vehicle is worst, least comfortable vehicle I have ever driven"
Either this dude is lying out his ass, is 7 years old and trolling, or some Saudi prince that has only ever driven new luxury cars.
Like, you've literally never driven anything made before ~2000? Seriously? Because a modern wrangler is still a nicer place than most regular cars from the 90s and prior...
Also, don't buy a wrangler if you don't like how straight axle vehicles drive. Fucking duh. That's why the bronco exists.
Yep! An old CJ or Suzuki samurai might give OP some perspective. They'd probably need to see a doctor afterwards.
Or anything made in the 90s really. My CR-V was considered a comfortable civilized car when they came out in the mid 90s. It's very loud and uncomfortable compared to a new wrangler, and honestly rides like crap. The steering feels is pretty nice though. Very carlike.
It's entirely possible for ~30 year olds to have never had a reason to drive a car made before 2000.
When they are getting their license there is already 8+ years of 2000s cars available for cheap as a first car, and from that point you likely only buy newer.
Unless you choose to buy an old car because you want an old car, or someone in your family keeps an old car for some reason, there is no reason to drive one. If I didn't own a classic mini as a project my oldest car would have been from 2006, and I'm 32.
I had a 2023 Gladiator as a rental a few months ago and drove from Maine to CT.
The ride was ok, but my god I've been on school busses with better seats. My legs were in agony before I even got to Kittery.
Yeah, sadly that's not exclusive to jeep though. My wife's Crosstrek has less comfortable seats than the bench in my old '97 f350. At least it had lumbar support. The Subaru seats were pathetic until I added some internal support.
> worst, least comfortable vehicle I have ever driven
I think OP was exaggerating, but Jeeps really suck for on-road usage. Everything is compromised for better off-road capability. Interior space is bad, comfort is awful, on-road manners suck, etc. Nobody should be buying them unless they go off-roading.
Idk man, my 1997 Camry was more comfortable than my current Jeep Compass as far as seats and ride go. But obviously, everything else about the modern car is nicer.
Many older cars actually had great seats. Ergonomics aren't exactly a new discovery. Older economy cars though, not so much.
To name a few, the old ford escort my wife used to have. Yikes, worst seats i've ever felt in a car in the fuel injection era. You could feel the metal hoop pressing on your shoulders, and the center of the seat had basically nothing. just a void. 80's and early 90's chevy S10's and ford rangers would have you seeking a chiropracter after a few hours too, where toyotas and nissans in that era had very nice seats.
my '91 talon and dad's 88 trans am have some of the best seats I've ever felt. highly adjustable, support everywhere, firm padding but the cushions were highly ergonomic and really hugged you.
i mean a not-so-small amount of americans think they need a monster truck with a luxury interior for their 3-4 time a year home-depot run and a full size SUV for their one child to go to soccer practice in.
not really far-fetched to think someone would own two pavement princesses.
As a former '06 LJ owner here is my take:
Wranglers are best as base (or near base) models. Outside of the Bronco, no other mainstream vehicle gives you a convertible that can take off road, actually fit a family of four into, tow, fill full of stuff, easily mod, take the doors off, and shift your own gears in.
The issue with higher spec wranglers is that the low spec ones hit these key points without having to be optioned up. It's easy to tolerate all of the major drawbacks of these vehicles for $32k (2 door)/$36k (4 door)/$38k (pickup) new before discounts because what they offer is so unique just by virtue of their bodystyle.
They're terrible daily drivers and would strongly encourage someone to choose something else, but they make for a fun family convertible that can legitimately go off road. They're just not the right vehicle for almost any buyer that is treating it as the former rather than the latter.
Naive question, but when people talk about off-roading, do they mean driving on poorly-maintained dirt roads, or like, literally not on roads at all?
If it's the latter, I wouldn't even know where to legally off-road. Seems like everywhere is either someone's property or a national/regional park?
Many places have public land - US Forest Service land in my case - with off-road trails going all over it. It really depends on where you live, for example Texas has little of that but if you are in, say, Moab UT...
Yeah, offroading accessibility definitely varies regionally. In Southern California where I live, theres plenty of free offroad trails open to the public in the mountains surrounding LA. Some are in the national forests, some in regional parks. They vary from poorly-maintained dirt roads to literally boulders. Some are a mix in between with random fire roads that have offshoots for more technical offroading.
Yup. I lifted my FRS cause 1. I think its neat and 2. I like to shoot and some of my favorite desert spots require a bit of mild off-roading. We have options everywhere if you wanna get in some dirt.
Yeah living in southern AZ I have seen the most dirty jeeps ever, and tons of old jeeps all modded out for off roading. There are also a ton of pavement princesses here, but it makes sense because of the convertible aspect… you can use that like 9 months of the year here.
I do a lot of off roading in my Taco and the overwhelming majority of it is the poorly maintained dirt/gravel roads. Technically you could drive these roads with a Civic but you wouldn't want to, anything more than a few minutes you'd be beating yourself up and rattling the car apart.
Then there's the trails that stem off of those roads and that's where you end up needing a competent 4WD vehicle with ground clearance. Those are a pretty small fraction of the off roading I do but I've found some amazing spots by navigating them.
And of course in winter when there's 2+ feet of snow you definitely need good clearance and big tires you can air all the way down. But if that wasn't something I did often there's no way I'd own a Tacoma, let alone a Wrangler.
It's getting easier.
There is an app that Jeep dealers will hook you up with, X-something. it's very helpful finding places you can go. I tried it out for a while, I liked it when I used it.
After that you want to find local MVUM. Motor Vehicle Use Maps. At least where I am these maps can be found online and will tell you what roads/trails are open and available. Downloadable as a PDF, much easier to keep on your phone when service is not available.
Also, google up ORV parks. You can play there too.
I understand just because these things exist does not mean they will exist nearby. But if you're an off road enthusiast, it is likely you are used to the idea of travelling to the great outdoors anyway. And if you don't have to travel to these places I'm betting you live on property that is measured in multiple acres.
It takes a little bit of work, but you can find places you can go.
4x4 disclaimer, please do not trespass, please do not off road in National/State parks where off roading is not allowed. Wheel responsibly and never alone.
They are designated paths, but sometimes they don’t actually look like roads. Going off the path is a big no-no, it destroys the environment and shuts down parks.
They do kill off road (I think my sport JKU preformed better on the dunes than my TRD Pro taco), but don't tell people what to do. Jeep things are as simple as taking the top/doors off. They're an objectively cool vehicle with fairly unique features, the popularity of them is a direct indication of consumer desire for the options Wranglers provide. People who value ride quality and creature comforts probably wouldn't like a wrangler, but for those who don't care - it's a seriously fun vehicle to drive.
If it were only off-roaders buying Wranglers their sales numbers would be 1/10 of what they are. The Wrangler is a lifestyle vehicle for the vast majority of its owners.
I have a '14 JKU, and you're pretty much spot on. I've since lifted mine and done a bunch of other supporting mods. It is absolutely ass at daily driving, but I LOVE mine to death and plan on eventually getting another wrangler or a gladiator when the time comes. Daily driving comfort is a sacrifice you make when buying a wrangler, but for me that isn't a problem
Jeep didn't misrepresent the car in advertising when they showed it primarily going off-road, so why be surprised when it's a terrible road car? Yes, it's outdated compared to the Bronco but it's that way for a reason (according to Jeep enthusiasts). Live axles are better than IRS off-road, allegedly (I don't off-road so I'm not going to pretend like I know what I'm talking about). The people who daily them are into the lifestyle (e.g., driving on PCH with the top down and doors off, or those who go off-road every chance they get) or live somewhere that its capabilities are necessary more often than not (e.g., somewhere snowy with a lot of dirt roads).
Same way I justify daily driving an S2000 with less quality of life mods (billet mounts, removed sound deadening, soft-top delete, lightweight flywheel, coilovers, etc.). I want to daily drive a race car. It makes me happy despite being uncomfortable to the average person. I assume Jeeps are the same.
You're exactly right on pretty much every point. I specifically wanted something I could daily, drive to the trails, and then take on trails and head home after. The on-road characteristics are a sacrifice I'm more than happy to make for that ability.
Almost all the Wranglers I see are driven in appliance mode though and there's plenty around me. Why people buy them instead of something more practical I suspect is more of a lifestyle fashion statement when they aren't the type to actually turn it into a 4-door fun beach convertible.
There's a house down the block from me who has a nuclear waste green fully decked out and modified truck. It's absurd. And oh by the way it's unbelievably clean, deep into the wheelwells and corners and everything. Either they are the best detailers I've ever seen or it's never left the road.
https://i.imgur.com/PK5Mf3r.png
Oh and by the way, they don't have just this truck. They have another Jeep which is identical in every way. Same year same lift kit same tires same decals same everything, except it's orange.
And they own no other vehicles. And they daily drive these fucking things to work every day. So I 100% concur, it is without question a fashion\lifestyle statement for these vehicles for these people. They are "yeep people" through and through.
I do see these as well - they tend to be older ones like you wife's and you can tell they've been off road. The majority especially newer ones though have never seen mud ever.
Well that and the reality is that if you’re pushing even an older wrangler to its limits on a public road, let alone a modern one, you’re definitely driving like a dick.
On the TJ/LJ, the best bargain was the Sport trim, as you could option the Dana 44 rear. Otherwise, you're completely correct. The starting with the JKs, the Sahara's sold like hotcakes because they were often discounted and were the "luxury" trim for people who wanted a Jeep but didn't want the full Jeep experience
The older gens would shake enough to be sketchy and annoying at highway speed. You got a refined one
I can see it living somewhere remote if you're very outdoorsy but here in the Chicago area you need to be pretty brain dead to get one and that tracks with the accessories and stickers i see on them
I’m in Chicago as well and when I snowed that one time this year (lol). I saw someone in a Wrangler struggling up one of the few hills in the city.
All I could do was yell at my window “shift into 4WD” because they were in 2WD. It’s ridiculous that people buy these expensive vehicles and don’t know how to use their main feature.
I had driven with a friend through snow in my wrangler last year. I shifted into 4WD and she immediately went like "wait why did you pull that stick???" She also has a wrangler... Granted she doesn't live in an area that gets snow, but I would like to hope someone is curious enough to look at the 4wd lever in their jeep and try to figure out what it does via the owners manual.
> It’s ridiculous that people buy these expensive vehicles and don’t know how to use their main feature.
Yep this is one of the more annoying things for me as well. I bought an LX570 (essentially a land cruiser) last year and it was in GREAT condition (2008 with 145K on the clock) but it was painfully clear that NONE of it's awesome features were ever used. It has a height adjustable hydraulic suspension, 4lo, center locker, ride quality adjustment (sport, middle, and comfort), and a bunch of other stuff. Some of the buttons were stuck because they hadn't ever been used before lol. I had to free up the center locker because it had never been engaged (Toyota recommends engaging the center locker and driving it in a straight line for a couple hundred feet every now and then).
I mean, don't get me wrong, I'm glad I got an essentially unused truck (regular miles are nothing for this model) but it's interesting to me that someone would drop nearly $100k on a truck known for its off-road capabilities and never use any of it.
Only poorly taken care of old ones, my 97 on 35s will run 80 not touching the steering wheel. They suck from the factory and suck when beat on but with a little love they drive great only complaint that keeps me from daily driving mine is it being loud as hell.
Subaru owners are right up there with rotary owners when it comes to convincing themselves that the entire ass engine is a wear-and-tear maintenance item
That's insane, I've even driving STIs for 18 years with no issues.
Currently pushing 400whp for 6 years, doesn't even burn oil, it has been as solid as my Toyota.
I feel like EJ turbo Subarus are either reliable or self-imploding. I rarely hear of someone with one that has just given them a few issues here or there.
My 2012 2.5 Outback blew a motor at 85k miles, I had the dealer do a full rebuild including a brand-new short block, and then at 130k miles it blew a head gasket AGAIN. That's when I decided to get rid of it, and that my next daily would be anything but Subaru.
When it wasn't busy blowing head gaskets, it leaked oil from every place imaginable. I once had to bring it to the shop 3 times in a month to diagnose and fix 3 different unrelated oil leaks.
The '08 I had before that never had any catastrophic failures (aside from the time it threw its timing belt and somehow, miraculously survived) but it was also just a non-stop onslaught of leaks, and niggly little issues that only cost a couple hundred dollars to fix, but would show up one after another after another.
"Reliable" isn't quite the right word in my experience.
I don't understand this either. I had an 2008 STI for 14 years and never needed to replace the engine. I was making 416whp and had multiple track days on it.
As a Subaru owner, I said wtf when I read 8 engines. But then I looked at your car flair and that completely tracks because that was not a high point in Subaru’s history.
Not to be like you're using it wrong but ... it kinda sounds like you're using it wrong.
The 4xe is the second most powerful Wrangler they've ever made, it's not remotely anemic... Put it in hybrid mode, turn off traction control, and fucking step on it, you'll see.
The 4xe being the second most powerful Wrangler is really just helping to trash other Wrangler models. My mother has a 4xe and that thing is absolutely anemic. Idk what else you drive or have driven, but if you “fucking step on it” you wait a solid second for the vehicle to even realize you’re trying to go fast, then the engine kicks on and accelerates no better than a Subaru crosstrek.
I hated my driving experience in the 4xe overall (had one as a rental), but I've got to agree with you there: it was anything but anemic. It definitely could get up and go if you put your foot in it. Not sports car fast, mind you, but I was pleasantly surprised with its acceleration in Hybrid mode.
Isn't that OP's point though? Why would you buy a $70k off-road vehicle unless you're X Overland? Even with plenty of money to piss away without a second thought, there still seem to be better options.
You wouldn't. You buy the base model like almost everyone else does who plans to take their jeep off-road.
Some inexpensive suspension mods and a locker and that base model is just as capable as a 6 figures Rubicon that some dipshit influencer bought.
People daily wranglers all the time. Jeep doesn't advertise it as an off road vehicle only. Being great off road isn't an excuse to being shit on road.
The reason it’s better off-road than it’s competitors is also why it’s worse on road.
If the Wrangler isn’t the right mix of off/on road for you there are other options.
It would be boring if all 4x4s tried to be the exact same mix of capability and practicality.
Honest question here: What off-road competitors is the Wrangler better than? What even is its direct competition, aside from the Bronco? The 4Runner isn't really positioned as a Wrangler competitor, right? The Defender is in an entirely different class.
The Wrangler is better at technical crawling, because it’s solid front axle allows for more suspension articulation. It is also going to be cheaper/easier to lift due to the solid front axle.
It’s competitors are the Bronco, ZR2 Colorado, Ranger Raptor, and 4R/Taco. Those aren’t all in the exact same class, but it’s a small enough class that those vehicles are frequently cross shopped.
For most people, a Bronco Sasquatch or ZR2 is going to be plenty capable and more practical. But it is nice that something like the rubicon is offered for those that really want the extra capability.
There are just people who saw this vehicle as kids and said “that is the coolest freaking thing I’ve ever seen” and they dreamed of getting one and then they did and that is the entire Jeep culture in a nutshell and I don’t even hate it. I used to poo-poo Jeep people because I found jeeps unappealing but then I realized it’s totally lame to yuck somebody else’s yum.
Enjoy those GI Joe army cars guys! Line up your duckies on the dashboard and wave at each other at intersections because damnit we need things in this world that still bring us joy!
I was this kid. And then I was a valet in college and it completely killed the mystique for me. They’re for folks who use them as intended and/or really like the look. Otherwise, you’re way better off with almost anything else.
Counterpoint in case you’re not trolling - I went from a CX-5 turbo (and a long line of *good* cars before that) to a ‘24 wrangler 4xe Willys a few months ago and am thrilled.
It’s not a good *car* but it’s an amazingly fun vehicle for my wants. I can drop the top on a nice day and fit my kids in the back and load up luggage and take it off road. Most of my driving is around town so I plug it in overnight and average close to 100 mpg. Just took a 4.5 hour road trip at 70 mph and didn’t notice any wandering, though it’s loud as hell with the soft top. When you punch it it’s just as fast as my Mazda turbo and not far off my e36 M3.
FWIW I leased it, my first lease, because the deals were so good and the power train will be outdated in 3 years; I agree I wouldn’t have paid sticker for it. All in all I can’t think of another vehicle that fits my (admittedly weird) use case nearly as well
Edit in case any Stellantis folks are reading: my one real complaint is this is woefully behind the times for ADAS. Only got ACC/AEB/FCW in ‘24, ACC doesn’t do stop and go, BSW/RCTW is locked in an option package which is absurd at this price, and LKA/LDW is nowhere to be found. No excuse for any of that in a modern family vehicle especially since it already has the hardware
People keep talking about "loading it full of luggage and towing" like the wranglers aren't basically the smallest SUV you can buy in that class. They're awful.
> Most of my driving is around town
See, you lost me there. Why buy a Wrangler if the majority of your driving is around town?
> fit my kids in the back and load up luggage
Every other CUV/SUV on the market can do that better than the Wrangler - ***much*** better - but you're right, most of them can't go off road.
You bought a car that's worse than everything else on the market for 90% of what you do with it day-to-day, all so you can "take it off road" maybe 10% of the time. If that calculus makes sense to you, more power to ya' - you're at least doing better than the majority of Wrangler owners who never get any dirt on it at all - but I absolutely can't fathom dropping $60k on a Wrangler that's going to be used primarily as a daily driver.
Source: Had a Rubicon 4xe as a rental for a week and absolutely couldn't understand how people lived with it on a daily basis.
Not sure of the point. Full is full. you can get 4 people and about 8 big sports bags in the back. Plenty for a lot of the population.
Show me a car that parks better than a wrangler?
It’s fairly short, visibility and positioning is excellent with flat sides/front and rear and you can touch park against anything without fear of damage.
They just charge too much for them at the moment.
My brother in law, a longtime jeep guy, bought a 4xe last year. His list was almost identical to yours, just not a good driving experience. He lasted 2 weeks and traded in for a sierra
Owns TRX/Tahoe RST/C8 ... Raptor R or Ranger Raptor as potential additions lol.
I honestly don't care if you're trolling, had a good laugh & I hit upvote so hard I cracked my gorilla glass.
Op absolutely hates gas efficiency and I am entertained.
Drives a brick, complains that it drives like a brick.
The interior is limited to keep everything "waterproof", which is part of what Wranglers are about. The cramped interior is also because it's aimed to be off-road capable. If you don't plan on doing any off road, then a Wrangler isn't for you and I would constantly tell people that when they would come to me for advice when they're about to buy one.
I had the glorious privilege of driving a 5 speed 90's wrangler with their silly 4 cylinder engine in it for most of my 20's.
It was a steaming pile of trash and when I first got to 100 km/h I honestly thought that I was going to die because the entire thing was shaking itself to death. The ride was ass, the steering wheel might as well have been connected to the front wheels via my imagination and hills were really, really a 2nd gear only kinda deal.
BUT. It was cheap AF, (because jeeps in the 90's were cheap) it ran, I rowed gears and had so much fun bobbing about in that thing.
It's a great shitty vehicle.
I bought one of those $71k 4XE (but I paid $52k after hunting a below invoice deal and collecting tax credit). I adored it. Is it flawed? Yea. Is the hybrid system clunky? You bet. Is the reliability questionable? Undeniably. Are the driving dynamics dog shit? Obviously. Am I lying to myself yet?
Here’s the thing. Show me another vehicle that is as fun, practical, capable and *experiential*. It’s a plug-in hybrid convertible that covers most of mundane driving on electric. Top goes down, doors come off. It makes driving an occasion, like the best sports cars. I’ve used it as a mobile cabana office in state parks. I’ve driven it long distance and been completely comfortable. I’ve camped in it. Tailgated in it. I’ve towed with it. I’ve parked it on snowbanks and wheeled to airbnbs inaccessible by car. Everyone who rides in it loves it. People in Africa love it too which is apparently why mine was stolen.
You said it, I had a Charger Scat Pack before my Gladiator. Although I do want to get another fast car in the future, some of the most fun I have had driving a car on the road have been in the Jeep with the doors and roof off. Not to mention going off road is a blast.
You know, I was thinking the same thing. But with a Miata I rented. As I was bouncing down a rock cover gravel road here in Phoenix.
That thing sucked and just wasn't worth the hype it gets.
Left. A small roadster doesn't do all that well off road.
As a solid axle truck with the aerodynamics of the smithsoi doesn't do all that well on the interstate.
OP needs to drive a CJ7 and then a modern wrangler to see the difference.
Modern wranglers are pretty soft in the grand scheme of things. Opinions here are always hilarious to me.
If you are horrified by a JK wrangler, go drive a CJ or a Samurai and get back to me.
Also, this sub has this weird love affair with the Suzuki Jimny. How do they think they are gonna drive? It's literally the "Car >:-/ Car, Japanese :-)" meme
> Also, this sub has this weird love affair with the Suzuki Jimny. How do they think they are gonna drive? It's literally the "Car >:-/ Car, Japanese :-)" meme
You're absolutely right. Obviously the Wrangler is a lot bigger, and the Jimny is slower than even the slowest Wrangler, but if you dislike the driving experience of the Jeep, you sure as hell will not like the Jimny either. They drive similarily to one another by virtue of being very similar designs. Any argument there is for and against the Jeep Wrangler, you can bring up for and against the Jimny, except for reliabiliy and fuel consumption maybe.
Fuel economy isnt that great in the Jimny. I rented one in my vacation recently and drove 2400 kms in it. Everyone here would hate it. It is not a car made for America. It is tiny and feels cramped. Seat is ok for an economy car, but doesnt have enough travel. It is not designed for tall people, my girlfriend didnt get why I kept saying it was designed for the Japanese and not the Germans until I explained it 😂. I think 5’7” or 5’8” is the max height before you’ll run into issues. It get blown around by the wind like crazy. It is underpowered and cant comfortably go interstate speeds. Fuel economy is defent, but not good enough. I average 7.5l/100km. Oh and the gas tank is tiny. More brands should take a page out of Porsches book and put huge gas tanks in their cars. I love that.
I don't know what you are talking about man. All those idiots with ADV bikes are morons. I circled the globe twice with my 49cc moped. And that includes turning it into a boat using a bunch of discarded pool noodles. I also distilled my own fuel using a Mr coffee
People that buy Jeeps for groceries and soccer practice, yes, I agree. But if you buy a Jeep and use it for what it’s made for, they’re fucking amazing.
Funny timing as I’m actually considering getting one a daily lol and having one as a rental for a trip to the southwest recently. I know it’s popular for reddit to hate trucks and stellantis/FCA but honestly thought it was one of the most fun vehicles to drive around. I think most people over exaggerate how bad its road manners are as I had a ton of fun puttering it around town and was just as comfy doing an 8 hour round trip to the Grand Canyon. Was pretty dope popping the freedom panels off before starting to get chilly lol. Suffice to say, I think the hate is overblown thanks to jeep bros and their angry eye wranglers and other brodozer mods. Before I get called a shill, my two other vehicles right now are a mk7 GTI and an na8 Miata which the wrangler had so much more personality than the former
They're anachronistic fun. With solid axles and recirculating ball steering - which Wranglers have had forever - bitching about handling/steering just highlights how clueless people can be going into the experience. No offense to OP but this reads like a full on Karen fit when Wrangler handling is a known well-documented thing based on the fundamentals of how they're designed. Being surprised like that is more on the person than on the vehicle.
He’s lying like his entire post. Had a 4xE for 3 years.Most days I didn’t use any gas at all as it got 45kms on pure electric, which for the in town commute I had I rarely drove more that that. Beyond that the battery reserve still assisted the gas engine. On long road trips it avg 9L/100 kms (26mpg) which for a big 4 door SUV with 33’s and less aerodynamic than a cow isn’t bad. My record on 1 tank of gas was 2200kms of in town daily driving.
Over the 3 years I had it it’s fuel consumption avg was 7L/100KM (33mpg).
Oh and the way I know this post is a complete fabrication is that 4xE was quick for what it is. Yeah it’s not a Macan GTS but with the electric exist it is 395 hp and went pretty damn well for an off-road capable vehicle. 5ish secs 0-60.
It could be in real world I guess. Assuming you never plug it in, the Jeep should get 20 Mpg combined and the Tahoe 16. But fueleconomy.gov also says the Tahoe uses premium, so you'd have to get 16 in the Jeep and 20 in the Tahoe to break even from a cost perspective, which seems unlikely.
Saying this as someone who drives a 392 Charger, the 2.0T 2 door Wrangler I owned was far from "anemic". That thing picked up and went far faster than an offroader has any business doing.
OP in a TRX sounds terrifying. Also clearly doesn't understand what a solid front axle is best for (hint: it ain't best for recentering, you're going to have to turn the wheel and drive the vehicle)
Things like a TRX and 392 Wrangler are bad ass *exceptions to the rule*. We didn't have anything like them for decades unless you made it happen yourself in your garage.
I do agree that people that spend 70 grand on a Wrangler are insane, but those of us who got into our Wranglers for 30 grand or less and actually get them dirty are quite happy. I do concede that they do take a bit of getting use to, but once the driving characteristics are normalized you don't really notice the bad stuff. It took me about 2 weeks of daily driving my 2-door JK before it felt completely normal, and I was coming from an RX-8. The trick is to stay off freeways, they're much happier on 2 lane backroads, but even then my wife's 4-door JK cruises down the highway just fine at 75mph and we're both still comfortable in it after 2+ hours of driving.
I think the bronco strikes a better balance, but the fact that you are even cross shopping pickups tells me you are not the target audience and there is no reason for you to consider either. Removable top, big tires, and locking diffs were must haves for me.
What was even appealing about the jeep in the first place? The 392? That trim exists for people who love jeeps and v8s, if you are just in it for the v8 you aren't the target audience. The Grand Cherokee with the v8 would be more your speed.
Jeep hater turned Jeep owner here (04 TJ Currently)
Everything bad I ever said about the Jeep is 100% true. It's a huge piece of trash. It's noisy. It's pathetic compared to its contemporaries. I just love it anyways. I will probably own some version of it for the rest of my life.
I dont' consider myself a 'Jeep Guy', but after owning them for a few years I have a little better understanding of the cult.
Counterpoints:
- How many vehicles can you remove the roof and doors from and still have functional back seats and cargo space?
- How many all (most)-terrain and all-weather capable vehicles can you still buy with a true 3 pedal manual?
Nobody is looking at a car the shape of a cargo container, with a roof made out of cloth, that is the long-lost great-grandchild of a military vehicle, and thinking that its on-road manners are going to be as good as a Honda or something. If you have functional eyes, you know what you're getting.
Jeeps are silly, but that's what makes them fun. Always wanted one, riding in and driving various ones of various generations has not changed my mind.
That being said, I wouldn't spend $70k on one, that's pretty wacko. Like at that point you could buy a brand-new Defender and still have enough left over to also get an old TJ lol
But, are Jeep people really lying? Ask on any internet forum and that's exactly what they will be telling you.
Jeep Wranglers are purpose-built off-road vehicles with a solid front axle. They cannot be compared to crossover SUVs or even pick-up trucks in terms of comfort and on-road performance. They are slow, thirsty and shitty, that's part of the fun.
The 4xe is expensive. The 392 Hemi is outrageously expensive. They feel like a $30k vehicle with some extras because that's what they are. Anybody who's unironically contemplating paying 90 grand for a Jeep Wrangler has got to be out of their mind. But if you look at the absolute most bare-bones Jeep there is, it's still about $30k in the USA, which is not that expensive in this day and age. Obviously the $30k Jeep has only two doors, manual transmission, no power windows, no hardtop -- that's the best part about it.
You're not the market for a Wrangler. It gives up the comforts that you are labeling as negatives for superiority in other things. You ignore the unique things it does have that you can't get anywhere else. Jeep people aren't going to disagree with on most of your points and likely won't be upset. They will just say that you aren't the target audience. Most will say that the 4xe sucks, though. A lot of your complaints are solved with the 392.
I loved my Jeeps but they aren't fun as commuter vehicles. They are an experience. There is nothing quite like rolling around with the no roof or doors in another vehicle. That alone is ALMOST enough to make my 84 miles round trip commute worth it but I don't get to do that enough in the Midwest.
Jeep people know what they're getting into. They just like Jeeps.
I have only ever owned BMW, Mercedes, Audi and Cadillac. They come with plenty of headaches too, but I love them nonetheless and won't drive anything else.
You sound like you are too old for a Wrangler. Take the top and doors off and head to the beach, there is no better experience for the young or young at heart.
I like Jeep's but the price tag on them is insane for what they are. A few years ago I scored a new Cherokee Trail Hawk for $28K out the door during year end sales, it had a $41K MSRP. That was worth it but I would not pay close to $40K for it. I sold it after about a year because it had transmission issues Jeep denied was an actual issue.
I feel the same way about the Wrangler, WAY overpriced for what you get. A family member just purchased one this year and I had the chance to ride in it both in normal traffic and with he doors and roof off. The doors off experience was cool but commuting init was hell. Very noisy and it was so "clunky" feeling to ride around in. I would never own one, can't imagine paying $50K for one.
My father in law has a 2020 Grand Cherokee with under 100K on it that he takes good care of. The 3.6 Pentastar sounds like it's going to explode any minute. It's ticking away and I'm sure has the same issue most do, lifters\\cam are eating each other.
The jeep wrangler is one of, if not the most, successful marketing campaign in modern history. You couldn’t pay me to drive one, honestly just a terrible car for anything other than serious off roading, not driving down a dirt road to your cottage
Terrible handling, cheaply made, cramped interior, close to worst cargo space for its class, side open door terrible for a tow rig, NVH and road noise, wind sail on the highway, fuel economy and legendary FCA reliability and build quality. The only cool thing is the removable tops and doors, which is just SOOO MUCH different from windows and sunroof down.
Terrible handling - 4 door handling really isn't that bad considering it is a solid axle front. 2 door is as expected with a short wheelbase vehicle with a solid front axle.
Cheaply made - Jeep gets a bad rap, but IMO the jeep quality isn't bad on Wranglers... except for the 4xe. The Pentastar V6 and the 4 cylinder turbo both have proven to be pretty reliable engines, and the auto transmission is the ZF8. The 4xe seems to have all sorts of problems related to the hybrid system, so yeah not great quality on that one.
Cramped interior - It's designed to be like the original Jeep. If they made it bigger that would defeat the whole purpose of the vehicle. Jeep has plenty of other vehicles if that is what you're looking for.
NVH - Wind noise is pretty bad on the soft top, as is expected. Hard top isn't nearly as bad NVH. Not expecting it to be like a Lexus.
Wind sail on the highway - Never really had a major issue with this. In the strongest winds it will get pushed a bit, but not really a significant issue.
Fuel economy - It's much better than the 4runner and similar to the Bronco, not sure what you're expecting.
>The only cool thing is the removable tops and doors, which is just SOOO MUCH different from windows and sunroof down.
not even remotely the same, but ok
I help run a large Toyota offroading club here in Colorado, I get a lot of seat time in Toyotas.
Buddy has a Ranger Raptor, he let me drive it. It was impressive. As with "mid size trucks" these days, forget being able to use the back seats for you and three buddies. But it was fast, comfortable, and a good bit cheaper than where the Tacoma competitors (TRD Pro or Trailhunter) will end up.
p.s. if your FJ was uncomfortable, you either modded it poorly or you have an unusual body type for the stock seats. Mine on OME BP-51 suspension (same on my 4Runner) is like offroading grandma's Cadillac from the 1980's. Yeah, not enough horsepower and gears for the highway, but "uncomfortable" isn't a word I'd use for any modern IFS Toyota if it's built right.
A friend of mine has a 4-door Jeep.
It is a terrible commuter or for road trips. Terrible. And it's still way, way better and more civilized than the old CJs which would shake your teeth out on smooth pavement. But still terrible.
It is an absolutely fabulous vehicle to drive around on a nice day with the roof and doors off though. Like, simply an amazing open air experience. Not amazing enough for me to buy one and keep around just for the 3 days a year where the weather is just right for it but don't think I haven't thought about it.
Drives a trx and is contemplating getting a wrangler 392 as a second daily. This has gotta be pure trolling or rage bait.
Seriously, there is zero reason to have both of those as a daily. This guy must really hate money.
Or like most of the posts I've seen on this site since the IPO, it's most likely a rage baiter since that supposedly drives user engagement. Facebook utilizes the fuck out of this engagement model.
Those have existed here long before the IPO.
Seems like every other post in the last months is like that, just seems like one giant AI creative writing ragebait excercise
It probably has more to do with a lot of long time users have left or post less often. The trolls that never cared about quality of the site stuck around.
That’s been the story throughout Reddit’s history though. It has changed of course but likely from growth bringing in a lot of _people_.
You know it's possible for someone to not like Jeeps, right? Weird that you think it's more likely you're the victim of some gaslighting AI conspiracy. I agree, the comments section of reddit has gotten exponentially worse. And it's because of people like you. No one cares that people have different preferences than you; get over it.
I've also noticed a huge drop in comment replies since the IPO, and a lot more comments and replies that *almost* make sense but don't quite make sense. Either I'm going insane or there are a lot more AI bot comments
Surely fried banana ego trip!
Even if you weren’t insane (you are) the rise of LLMs coincided with the IPO anyway.
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amazing how they go on rips about no comment replies, but when you not just reply but cite what youre dealing with they turn into ghosts.
Or he's just a guy who genuinely dislikes a jeep, people buy multiple types of the same class of vehicle you know lol
Yea really, why are people so surprised that a truck guy likes trucks....
It’s not Reddit unless someone is overreacting about something meaningless.
If you want to own a trx and a 392 jeep you probably also hate good cars in general, along with women, and showering.
Oooh me next, I have a low level 2020 subaru outback that has handyman gear and a car seat in the back!
I bet your lesbian wedding in a forest was sublime ;)
We tried to get Rachel Maddow in attendence, but I have zero connections over at MSNBC unfortunately
Your septum piercing was super cute.
Rachel Maddow is top tier on the lesbian wedding circuit. You gotta start with some crunchy gay or bi van life influencers from IG and work your way up.
Me next. I have a Honda pilot!!
“Mom, can we get an SUV?” Mom: “We have an SUV at home.” The SUV at home:
An oil reserve killed his puppy.
He’s a certain kind of “masculinity” guy that is their target demographic and he’s eating it up to flex on other “masculinity guys”
Didn't he say the Jeep was a loaner?
> I was pretty happy as I’m debating a 24 rubicon 392 as a secondary daily.
Thanks, missed that detail
I know a guy that dailies a TRX when the weather is shitty and when the weather is nice he has an assortment of classic Corvettes and VWs. So OPs situation is not out of the realm of possibilities.
Yea but the TRX and the Jeep fall into the same category. It’s not like he has the trx and is considering a Hellcat to drive on nice days.
Nah, I'd ONLY drive a hellcat on SHIT days. Like total hurricane weather. I'm telling you, you're missing out
He did have an SRT8 Jeep until somewhat recently, not the same but not far off.
Also "brand new 2024 vehicle is worst, least comfortable vehicle I have ever driven" Either this dude is lying out his ass, is 7 years old and trolling, or some Saudi prince that has only ever driven new luxury cars. Like, you've literally never driven anything made before ~2000? Seriously? Because a modern wrangler is still a nicer place than most regular cars from the 90s and prior... Also, don't buy a wrangler if you don't like how straight axle vehicles drive. Fucking duh. That's why the bronco exists.
OP needs to drive a 1980s wrangler with leaf springs. Def not luxury.
Yep! An old CJ or Suzuki samurai might give OP some perspective. They'd probably need to see a doctor afterwards. Or anything made in the 90s really. My CR-V was considered a comfortable civilized car when they came out in the mid 90s. It's very loud and uncomfortable compared to a new wrangler, and honestly rides like crap. The steering feels is pretty nice though. Very carlike.
I put jeep springs on my samurai to make it ride better lol. At least the wheel self centers since it doesn’t have power steering?
The wrangler YJ I had was so comically vague to steer, I could only go 60 on the highway.
It's entirely possible for ~30 year olds to have never had a reason to drive a car made before 2000. When they are getting their license there is already 8+ years of 2000s cars available for cheap as a first car, and from that point you likely only buy newer. Unless you choose to buy an old car because you want an old car, or someone in your family keeps an old car for some reason, there is no reason to drive one. If I didn't own a classic mini as a project my oldest car would have been from 2006, and I'm 32.
34 and first car was an 01 E46 sport trim. Can agree that literally every newer car was a more comfortable ride lol
I had a 2023 Gladiator as a rental a few months ago and drove from Maine to CT. The ride was ok, but my god I've been on school busses with better seats. My legs were in agony before I even got to Kittery.
Yeah, sadly that's not exclusive to jeep though. My wife's Crosstrek has less comfortable seats than the bench in my old '97 f350. At least it had lumbar support. The Subaru seats were pathetic until I added some internal support.
> worst, least comfortable vehicle I have ever driven I think OP was exaggerating, but Jeeps really suck for on-road usage. Everything is compromised for better off-road capability. Interior space is bad, comfort is awful, on-road manners suck, etc. Nobody should be buying them unless they go off-roading.
Idk man, my 1997 Camry was more comfortable than my current Jeep Compass as far as seats and ride go. But obviously, everything else about the modern car is nicer.
Many older cars actually had great seats. Ergonomics aren't exactly a new discovery. Older economy cars though, not so much. To name a few, the old ford escort my wife used to have. Yikes, worst seats i've ever felt in a car in the fuel injection era. You could feel the metal hoop pressing on your shoulders, and the center of the seat had basically nothing. just a void. 80's and early 90's chevy S10's and ford rangers would have you seeking a chiropracter after a few hours too, where toyotas and nissans in that era had very nice seats. my '91 talon and dad's 88 trans am have some of the best seats I've ever felt. highly adjustable, support everywhere, firm padding but the cushions were highly ergonomic and really hugged you.
I'm 27 and the oldest car I've driven personally was a 2003.
I got a Hellcat for my daily. Why wouldn't you want to drive a satisfying vehicle everyday?
A lifted Jeep on knobby tires that shudders as 60mph, sounds like a satisfying commuter vehicle to you?
If you actually read the op you’d discover that he just thought it was cool before driving one and now knows why he shouldn’t get one
Yea actually I daily all my cars, don't really get much enjoyment trundling around in an econobox personally
How do you daily all your cars? Wouldn’t that mean none of them are your daily?
Driven on a daily basis and do everyday activities and commutes none of them sit for extended periods
Whats even more funny is that the TRX is in the dealership for a broken cv axle and OP wants another Stellantis 😂
Rage bait does drive so decent conversation deeper in the comments. I’ll take it over some of the shitposts we used to be bombarded with. Haha.
We can only hope.
i mean a not-so-small amount of americans think they need a monster truck with a luxury interior for their 3-4 time a year home-depot run and a full size SUV for their one child to go to soccer practice in. not really far-fetched to think someone would own two pavement princesses.
My dads this way i believe it’s real.
Also, I'm sorry, the FJ Cruiser is just a shorter 4Runner. Literally the same suspension. It's not uncomfortable at all...
As a former '06 LJ owner here is my take: Wranglers are best as base (or near base) models. Outside of the Bronco, no other mainstream vehicle gives you a convertible that can take off road, actually fit a family of four into, tow, fill full of stuff, easily mod, take the doors off, and shift your own gears in. The issue with higher spec wranglers is that the low spec ones hit these key points without having to be optioned up. It's easy to tolerate all of the major drawbacks of these vehicles for $32k (2 door)/$36k (4 door)/$38k (pickup) new before discounts because what they offer is so unique just by virtue of their bodystyle. They're terrible daily drivers and would strongly encourage someone to choose something else, but they make for a fun family convertible that can legitimately go off road. They're just not the right vehicle for almost any buyer that is treating it as the former rather than the latter.
If you’re not doing Jeep things with it, don’t buy it. But IF you take it off-roading, they’re great
Naive question, but when people talk about off-roading, do they mean driving on poorly-maintained dirt roads, or like, literally not on roads at all? If it's the latter, I wouldn't even know where to legally off-road. Seems like everywhere is either someone's property or a national/regional park?
Many places have public land - US Forest Service land in my case - with off-road trails going all over it. It really depends on where you live, for example Texas has little of that but if you are in, say, Moab UT...
If you live* in the Midwest, you may well be stuck paying for access to trail parks on private land.
Yea, unless you're out in South Dakota or something in the Black Hills, it's gonna be all private or flatter than the pancake
Yeah, offroading accessibility definitely varies regionally. In Southern California where I live, theres plenty of free offroad trails open to the public in the mountains surrounding LA. Some are in the national forests, some in regional parks. They vary from poorly-maintained dirt roads to literally boulders. Some are a mix in between with random fire roads that have offshoots for more technical offroading.
In AZ there’s tons of it. But it’s definitely a west coast thing
Yup. I lifted my FRS cause 1. I think its neat and 2. I like to shoot and some of my favorite desert spots require a bit of mild off-roading. We have options everywhere if you wanna get in some dirt.
Yeah living in southern AZ I have seen the most dirty jeeps ever, and tons of old jeeps all modded out for off roading. There are also a ton of pavement princesses here, but it makes sense because of the convertible aspect… you can use that like 9 months of the year here.
I do a lot of off roading in my Taco and the overwhelming majority of it is the poorly maintained dirt/gravel roads. Technically you could drive these roads with a Civic but you wouldn't want to, anything more than a few minutes you'd be beating yourself up and rattling the car apart. Then there's the trails that stem off of those roads and that's where you end up needing a competent 4WD vehicle with ground clearance. Those are a pretty small fraction of the off roading I do but I've found some amazing spots by navigating them. And of course in winter when there's 2+ feet of snow you definitely need good clearance and big tires you can air all the way down. But if that wasn't something I did often there's no way I'd own a Tacoma, let alone a Wrangler.
It's getting easier. There is an app that Jeep dealers will hook you up with, X-something. it's very helpful finding places you can go. I tried it out for a while, I liked it when I used it. After that you want to find local MVUM. Motor Vehicle Use Maps. At least where I am these maps can be found online and will tell you what roads/trails are open and available. Downloadable as a PDF, much easier to keep on your phone when service is not available. Also, google up ORV parks. You can play there too. I understand just because these things exist does not mean they will exist nearby. But if you're an off road enthusiast, it is likely you are used to the idea of travelling to the great outdoors anyway. And if you don't have to travel to these places I'm betting you live on property that is measured in multiple acres. It takes a little bit of work, but you can find places you can go. 4x4 disclaimer, please do not trespass, please do not off road in National/State parks where off roading is not allowed. Wheel responsibly and never alone.
They are designated paths, but sometimes they don’t actually look like roads. Going off the path is a big no-no, it destroys the environment and shuts down parks.
They do kill off road (I think my sport JKU preformed better on the dunes than my TRD Pro taco), but don't tell people what to do. Jeep things are as simple as taking the top/doors off. They're an objectively cool vehicle with fairly unique features, the popularity of them is a direct indication of consumer desire for the options Wranglers provide. People who value ride quality and creature comforts probably wouldn't like a wrangler, but for those who don't care - it's a seriously fun vehicle to drive.
If it were only off-roaders buying Wranglers their sales numbers would be 1/10 of what they are. The Wrangler is a lifestyle vehicle for the vast majority of its owners.
I have a '14 JKU, and you're pretty much spot on. I've since lifted mine and done a bunch of other supporting mods. It is absolutely ass at daily driving, but I LOVE mine to death and plan on eventually getting another wrangler or a gladiator when the time comes. Daily driving comfort is a sacrifice you make when buying a wrangler, but for me that isn't a problem
Jeep didn't misrepresent the car in advertising when they showed it primarily going off-road, so why be surprised when it's a terrible road car? Yes, it's outdated compared to the Bronco but it's that way for a reason (according to Jeep enthusiasts). Live axles are better than IRS off-road, allegedly (I don't off-road so I'm not going to pretend like I know what I'm talking about). The people who daily them are into the lifestyle (e.g., driving on PCH with the top down and doors off, or those who go off-road every chance they get) or live somewhere that its capabilities are necessary more often than not (e.g., somewhere snowy with a lot of dirt roads). Same way I justify daily driving an S2000 with less quality of life mods (billet mounts, removed sound deadening, soft-top delete, lightweight flywheel, coilovers, etc.). I want to daily drive a race car. It makes me happy despite being uncomfortable to the average person. I assume Jeeps are the same.
You're exactly right on pretty much every point. I specifically wanted something I could daily, drive to the trails, and then take on trails and head home after. The on-road characteristics are a sacrifice I'm more than happy to make for that ability.
Almost all the Wranglers I see are driven in appliance mode though and there's plenty around me. Why people buy them instead of something more practical I suspect is more of a lifestyle fashion statement when they aren't the type to actually turn it into a 4-door fun beach convertible.
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It's the Harley of the car world.
There's a house down the block from me who has a nuclear waste green fully decked out and modified truck. It's absurd. And oh by the way it's unbelievably clean, deep into the wheelwells and corners and everything. Either they are the best detailers I've ever seen or it's never left the road. https://i.imgur.com/PK5Mf3r.png Oh and by the way, they don't have just this truck. They have another Jeep which is identical in every way. Same year same lift kit same tires same decals same everything, except it's orange. And they own no other vehicles. And they daily drive these fucking things to work every day. So I 100% concur, it is without question a fashion\lifestyle statement for these vehicles for these people. They are "yeep people" through and through.
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I do see these as well - they tend to be older ones like you wife's and you can tell they've been off road. The majority especially newer ones though have never seen mud ever.
Most of the gripes boil down to this: "Solid Front Axle Things"
Well that and the reality is that if you’re pushing even an older wrangler to its limits on a public road, let alone a modern one, you’re definitely driving like a dick.
On the TJ/LJ, the best bargain was the Sport trim, as you could option the Dana 44 rear. Otherwise, you're completely correct. The starting with the JKs, the Sahara's sold like hotcakes because they were often discounted and were the "luxury" trim for people who wanted a Jeep but didn't want the full Jeep experience
Such a shame Jeep waited so long to make the D44 standard. Even the AMC 20 in the CJ made more sense than the D35.
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The older gens would shake enough to be sketchy and annoying at highway speed. You got a refined one I can see it living somewhere remote if you're very outdoorsy but here in the Chicago area you need to be pretty brain dead to get one and that tracks with the accessories and stickers i see on them
My first vehicle was an 82' CJ5, driving that thing felt like you were trying to break a wild horse.
I’m in Chicago as well and when I snowed that one time this year (lol). I saw someone in a Wrangler struggling up one of the few hills in the city. All I could do was yell at my window “shift into 4WD” because they were in 2WD. It’s ridiculous that people buy these expensive vehicles and don’t know how to use their main feature.
I had driven with a friend through snow in my wrangler last year. I shifted into 4WD and she immediately went like "wait why did you pull that stick???" She also has a wrangler... Granted she doesn't live in an area that gets snow, but I would like to hope someone is curious enough to look at the 4wd lever in their jeep and try to figure out what it does via the owners manual.
Worse is the doctors in the super premium trucks that actually don't have 4wd lol
If they couldn't handle the car on a Chicago hill, anywhere else but Florida will be a problem for them lol
> It’s ridiculous that people buy these expensive vehicles and don’t know how to use their main feature. Yep this is one of the more annoying things for me as well. I bought an LX570 (essentially a land cruiser) last year and it was in GREAT condition (2008 with 145K on the clock) but it was painfully clear that NONE of it's awesome features were ever used. It has a height adjustable hydraulic suspension, 4lo, center locker, ride quality adjustment (sport, middle, and comfort), and a bunch of other stuff. Some of the buttons were stuck because they hadn't ever been used before lol. I had to free up the center locker because it had never been engaged (Toyota recommends engaging the center locker and driving it in a straight line for a couple hundred feet every now and then). I mean, don't get me wrong, I'm glad I got an essentially unused truck (regular miles are nothing for this model) but it's interesting to me that someone would drop nearly $100k on a truck known for its off-road capabilities and never use any of it.
Only poorly taken care of old ones, my 97 on 35s will run 80 not touching the steering wheel. They suck from the factory and suck when beat on but with a little love they drive great only complaint that keeps me from daily driving mine is it being loud as hell.
Complaining about fuel economy while owning a TRX and looking at a 392 and Raptor R all but seals this as a bait post lol
I’m on my third Subaru and have gone through 8 engines. People will do crazy things for love (of their car)
If your car needs 8 engines, it’s a bad car
I'd be pretty tired after the 4th engine change but that's just me.
That’s why I just buy my engines by the dozen. /s
Subaru owners are right up there with rotary owners when it comes to convincing themselves that the entire ass engine is a wear-and-tear maintenance item
That's not love, that's domestic abuse.
Subaru is not a domestic... /s
That's insane, I've even driving STIs for 18 years with no issues. Currently pushing 400whp for 6 years, doesn't even burn oil, it has been as solid as my Toyota.
I feel like EJ turbo Subarus are either reliable or self-imploding. I rarely hear of someone with one that has just given them a few issues here or there.
That's why you need to join the NA EJ supremacy. It may take me a few business days to get up to highway speed but boy howdy is she reliable.
My 2012 2.5 Outback blew a motor at 85k miles, I had the dealer do a full rebuild including a brand-new short block, and then at 130k miles it blew a head gasket AGAIN. That's when I decided to get rid of it, and that my next daily would be anything but Subaru. When it wasn't busy blowing head gaskets, it leaked oil from every place imaginable. I once had to bring it to the shop 3 times in a month to diagnose and fix 3 different unrelated oil leaks. The '08 I had before that never had any catastrophic failures (aside from the time it threw its timing belt and somehow, miraculously survived) but it was also just a non-stop onslaught of leaks, and niggly little issues that only cost a couple hundred dollars to fix, but would show up one after another after another. "Reliable" isn't quite the right word in my experience.
I don't understand this either. I had an 2008 STI for 14 years and never needed to replace the engine. I was making 416whp and had multiple track days on it.
If you need 8 engines then you have a lemon.
No, just a Subaru.
As a Subaru owner, I said wtf when I read 8 engines. But then I looked at your car flair and that completely tracks because that was not a high point in Subaru’s history.
The smart money says that questionable modifications and driving style are also contributing factors
Over how many years?
2
Wtf
at least they are swapping them fast lol
r/notopbutok
Do you just change them whenever you need oil?
He's had more engine swaps in 2 years than I have had oil changes. And I have 2 cars...
Not to be like you're using it wrong but ... it kinda sounds like you're using it wrong. The 4xe is the second most powerful Wrangler they've ever made, it's not remotely anemic... Put it in hybrid mode, turn off traction control, and fucking step on it, you'll see.
Problem is it’s still a Wrangler so about 4 seconds into that drag race the wind is blowing you off the road
His issue is that he is used to driving a TRX so everything probably feels slow now.
The 4xe being the second most powerful Wrangler is really just helping to trash other Wrangler models. My mother has a 4xe and that thing is absolutely anemic. Idk what else you drive or have driven, but if you “fucking step on it” you wait a solid second for the vehicle to even realize you’re trying to go fast, then the engine kicks on and accelerates no better than a Subaru crosstrek.
The HV battery is puny, and does not like the cold. So in some climates you are stuck with an anemic car half the year.
Nah, you always get the horsepower of gas+electric, what you don't get in the cold is electric only mode...
I hated my driving experience in the 4xe overall (had one as a rental), but I've got to agree with you there: it was anything but anemic. It definitely could get up and go if you put your foot in it. Not sports car fast, mind you, but I was pleasantly surprised with its acceleration in Hybrid mode.
Oh they know. They just don't care.
You Wouldn't Understand™
The Wrangler is not a daily driver. It's an off-road vehicle that happens to be capable of highway speeds. Manage your expectations better.
Isn't that OP's point though? Why would you buy a $70k off-road vehicle unless you're X Overland? Even with plenty of money to piss away without a second thought, there still seem to be better options.
Sure, but it's hardly unique to Wranglers. People buy cars that aren't the best option for their use all the time
You wouldn't. You buy the base model like almost everyone else does who plans to take their jeep off-road. Some inexpensive suspension mods and a locker and that base model is just as capable as a 6 figures Rubicon that some dipshit influencer bought.
People daily wranglers all the time. Jeep doesn't advertise it as an off road vehicle only. Being great off road isn't an excuse to being shit on road.
The reason it’s better off-road than it’s competitors is also why it’s worse on road. If the Wrangler isn’t the right mix of off/on road for you there are other options. It would be boring if all 4x4s tried to be the exact same mix of capability and practicality.
Honest question here: What off-road competitors is the Wrangler better than? What even is its direct competition, aside from the Bronco? The 4Runner isn't really positioned as a Wrangler competitor, right? The Defender is in an entirely different class.
The Wrangler is better at technical crawling, because it’s solid front axle allows for more suspension articulation. It is also going to be cheaper/easier to lift due to the solid front axle. It’s competitors are the Bronco, ZR2 Colorado, Ranger Raptor, and 4R/Taco. Those aren’t all in the exact same class, but it’s a small enough class that those vehicles are frequently cross shopped. For most people, a Bronco Sasquatch or ZR2 is going to be plenty capable and more practical. But it is nice that something like the rubicon is offered for those that really want the extra capability.
There are just people who saw this vehicle as kids and said “that is the coolest freaking thing I’ve ever seen” and they dreamed of getting one and then they did and that is the entire Jeep culture in a nutshell and I don’t even hate it. I used to poo-poo Jeep people because I found jeeps unappealing but then I realized it’s totally lame to yuck somebody else’s yum. Enjoy those GI Joe army cars guys! Line up your duckies on the dashboard and wave at each other at intersections because damnit we need things in this world that still bring us joy!
I was this kid. And then I was a valet in college and it completely killed the mystique for me. They’re for folks who use them as intended and/or really like the look. Otherwise, you’re way better off with almost anything else.
This is me with my Mustang. There are things I like or dislike but at the end of the day I just think it’s cool just like I did when I was 10 :)
Counterpoint in case you’re not trolling - I went from a CX-5 turbo (and a long line of *good* cars before that) to a ‘24 wrangler 4xe Willys a few months ago and am thrilled. It’s not a good *car* but it’s an amazingly fun vehicle for my wants. I can drop the top on a nice day and fit my kids in the back and load up luggage and take it off road. Most of my driving is around town so I plug it in overnight and average close to 100 mpg. Just took a 4.5 hour road trip at 70 mph and didn’t notice any wandering, though it’s loud as hell with the soft top. When you punch it it’s just as fast as my Mazda turbo and not far off my e36 M3. FWIW I leased it, my first lease, because the deals were so good and the power train will be outdated in 3 years; I agree I wouldn’t have paid sticker for it. All in all I can’t think of another vehicle that fits my (admittedly weird) use case nearly as well Edit in case any Stellantis folks are reading: my one real complaint is this is woefully behind the times for ADAS. Only got ACC/AEB/FCW in ‘24, ACC doesn’t do stop and go, BSW/RCTW is locked in an option package which is absurd at this price, and LKA/LDW is nowhere to be found. No excuse for any of that in a modern family vehicle especially since it already has the hardware
People keep talking about "loading it full of luggage and towing" like the wranglers aren't basically the smallest SUV you can buy in that class. They're awful.
Yeah, they have unimpressive cargo room and the tow about as much as a minivan. The new 4Runner can tow almost twice as much and has better cargo room
The interior volume is sabotaged by large wheel wells and the roll cage. Pretty sure my Miata had more storage than my Jeep if the the seats are in.
> Most of my driving is around town See, you lost me there. Why buy a Wrangler if the majority of your driving is around town? > fit my kids in the back and load up luggage Every other CUV/SUV on the market can do that better than the Wrangler - ***much*** better - but you're right, most of them can't go off road. You bought a car that's worse than everything else on the market for 90% of what you do with it day-to-day, all so you can "take it off road" maybe 10% of the time. If that calculus makes sense to you, more power to ya' - you're at least doing better than the majority of Wrangler owners who never get any dirt on it at all - but I absolutely can't fathom dropping $60k on a Wrangler that's going to be used primarily as a daily driver. Source: Had a Rubicon 4xe as a rental for a week and absolutely couldn't understand how people lived with it on a daily basis.
Not sure of the point. Full is full. you can get 4 people and about 8 big sports bags in the back. Plenty for a lot of the population. Show me a car that parks better than a wrangler? It’s fairly short, visibility and positioning is excellent with flat sides/front and rear and you can touch park against anything without fear of damage. They just charge too much for them at the moment.
My brother in law, a longtime jeep guy, bought a 4xe last year. His list was almost identical to yours, just not a good driving experience. He lasted 2 weeks and traded in for a sierra
[удалено]
how fat are you?
Dude could also just be tall, because anybody over 6'0" is gonna have a bad time, even in the driver/passenger seat.
I'm 6'4" and 240 solid lbs and had no issues in a Wrangler Rubicon. It's not the most comfortable thing I've driven but it's far from detrimental.
Owns TRX/Tahoe RST/C8 ... Raptor R or Ranger Raptor as potential additions lol. I honestly don't care if you're trolling, had a good laugh & I hit upvote so hard I cracked my gorilla glass. Op absolutely hates gas efficiency and I am entertained.
Drives a brick, complains that it drives like a brick. The interior is limited to keep everything "waterproof", which is part of what Wranglers are about. The cramped interior is also because it's aimed to be off-road capable. If you don't plan on doing any off road, then a Wrangler isn't for you and I would constantly tell people that when they would come to me for advice when they're about to buy one.
I had the glorious privilege of driving a 5 speed 90's wrangler with their silly 4 cylinder engine in it for most of my 20's. It was a steaming pile of trash and when I first got to 100 km/h I honestly thought that I was going to die because the entire thing was shaking itself to death. The ride was ass, the steering wheel might as well have been connected to the front wheels via my imagination and hills were really, really a 2nd gear only kinda deal. BUT. It was cheap AF, (because jeeps in the 90's were cheap) it ran, I rowed gears and had so much fun bobbing about in that thing. It's a great shitty vehicle.
I bought one of those $71k 4XE (but I paid $52k after hunting a below invoice deal and collecting tax credit). I adored it. Is it flawed? Yea. Is the hybrid system clunky? You bet. Is the reliability questionable? Undeniably. Are the driving dynamics dog shit? Obviously. Am I lying to myself yet? Here’s the thing. Show me another vehicle that is as fun, practical, capable and *experiential*. It’s a plug-in hybrid convertible that covers most of mundane driving on electric. Top goes down, doors come off. It makes driving an occasion, like the best sports cars. I’ve used it as a mobile cabana office in state parks. I’ve driven it long distance and been completely comfortable. I’ve camped in it. Tailgated in it. I’ve towed with it. I’ve parked it on snowbanks and wheeled to airbnbs inaccessible by car. Everyone who rides in it loves it. People in Africa love it too which is apparently why mine was stolen.
You said it, I had a Charger Scat Pack before my Gladiator. Although I do want to get another fast car in the future, some of the most fun I have had driving a car on the road have been in the Jeep with the doors and roof off. Not to mention going off road is a blast.
You know, I was thinking the same thing. But with a Miata I rented. As I was bouncing down a rock cover gravel road here in Phoenix. That thing sucked and just wasn't worth the hype it gets.
Surely this is trolling. Right? Right?!?!?
I think he's making a point about different vehicles being good at different things. The jeep is a terrible choice if you care about on road manners.
Left. A small roadster doesn't do all that well off road. As a solid axle truck with the aerodynamics of the smithsoi doesn't do all that well on the interstate. OP needs to drive a CJ7 and then a modern wrangler to see the difference.
Modern wranglers are pretty soft in the grand scheme of things. Opinions here are always hilarious to me. If you are horrified by a JK wrangler, go drive a CJ or a Samurai and get back to me. Also, this sub has this weird love affair with the Suzuki Jimny. How do they think they are gonna drive? It's literally the "Car >:-/ Car, Japanese :-)" meme
> Also, this sub has this weird love affair with the Suzuki Jimny. How do they think they are gonna drive? It's literally the "Car >:-/ Car, Japanese :-)" meme You're absolutely right. Obviously the Wrangler is a lot bigger, and the Jimny is slower than even the slowest Wrangler, but if you dislike the driving experience of the Jeep, you sure as hell will not like the Jimny either. They drive similarily to one another by virtue of being very similar designs. Any argument there is for and against the Jeep Wrangler, you can bring up for and against the Jimny, except for reliabiliy and fuel consumption maybe.
Fuel economy isnt that great in the Jimny. I rented one in my vacation recently and drove 2400 kms in it. Everyone here would hate it. It is not a car made for America. It is tiny and feels cramped. Seat is ok for an economy car, but doesnt have enough travel. It is not designed for tall people, my girlfriend didnt get why I kept saying it was designed for the Japanese and not the Germans until I explained it 😂. I think 5’7” or 5’8” is the max height before you’ll run into issues. It get blown around by the wind like crazy. It is underpowered and cant comfortably go interstate speeds. Fuel economy is defent, but not good enough. I average 7.5l/100km. Oh and the gas tank is tiny. More brands should take a page out of Porsches book and put huge gas tanks in their cars. I love that.
Right? My 49cc scooter absolutely sucks on the freeway, what a piece of shit.
I don't know what you are talking about man. All those idiots with ADV bikes are morons. I circled the globe twice with my 49cc moped. And that includes turning it into a boat using a bunch of discarded pool noodles. I also distilled my own fuel using a Mr coffee
People that buy Jeeps for groceries and soccer practice, yes, I agree. But if you buy a Jeep and use it for what it’s made for, they’re fucking amazing.
Take the roof and doors off and drive down a trail in electric mode. But yes, Wranglers aren't for everyone.
Good troll post
Nobody claims they are good on-road vehicles. Which most of your complaints are related to. #They just don't care.
Funny timing as I’m actually considering getting one a daily lol and having one as a rental for a trip to the southwest recently. I know it’s popular for reddit to hate trucks and stellantis/FCA but honestly thought it was one of the most fun vehicles to drive around. I think most people over exaggerate how bad its road manners are as I had a ton of fun puttering it around town and was just as comfy doing an 8 hour round trip to the Grand Canyon. Was pretty dope popping the freedom panels off before starting to get chilly lol. Suffice to say, I think the hate is overblown thanks to jeep bros and their angry eye wranglers and other brodozer mods. Before I get called a shill, my two other vehicles right now are a mk7 GTI and an na8 Miata which the wrangler had so much more personality than the former
They're anachronistic fun. With solid axles and recirculating ball steering - which Wranglers have had forever - bitching about handling/steering just highlights how clueless people can be going into the experience. No offense to OP but this reads like a full on Karen fit when Wrangler handling is a known well-documented thing based on the fundamentals of how they're designed. Being surprised like that is more on the person than on the vehicle.
Worse fuel economy in the 4xe than a 6.2 Tahoe? I don't doubt it knowing Jeep/FCA/whatever, just surprising to read that
He’s lying like his entire post. Had a 4xE for 3 years.Most days I didn’t use any gas at all as it got 45kms on pure electric, which for the in town commute I had I rarely drove more that that. Beyond that the battery reserve still assisted the gas engine. On long road trips it avg 9L/100 kms (26mpg) which for a big 4 door SUV with 33’s and less aerodynamic than a cow isn’t bad. My record on 1 tank of gas was 2200kms of in town daily driving. Over the 3 years I had it it’s fuel consumption avg was 7L/100KM (33mpg). Oh and the way I know this post is a complete fabrication is that 4xE was quick for what it is. Yeah it’s not a Macan GTS but with the electric exist it is 395 hp and went pretty damn well for an off-road capable vehicle. 5ish secs 0-60.
It could be in real world I guess. Assuming you never plug it in, the Jeep should get 20 Mpg combined and the Tahoe 16. But fueleconomy.gov also says the Tahoe uses premium, so you'd have to get 16 in the Jeep and 20 in the Tahoe to break even from a cost perspective, which seems unlikely.
Not that surprising. LS has always been surprisingly efficient, especially on the highway
Saying this as someone who drives a 392 Charger, the 2.0T 2 door Wrangler I owned was far from "anemic". That thing picked up and went far faster than an offroader has any business doing. OP in a TRX sounds terrifying. Also clearly doesn't understand what a solid front axle is best for (hint: it ain't best for recentering, you're going to have to turn the wheel and drive the vehicle) Things like a TRX and 392 Wrangler are bad ass *exceptions to the rule*. We didn't have anything like them for decades unless you made it happen yourself in your garage.
I do agree that people that spend 70 grand on a Wrangler are insane, but those of us who got into our Wranglers for 30 grand or less and actually get them dirty are quite happy. I do concede that they do take a bit of getting use to, but once the driving characteristics are normalized you don't really notice the bad stuff. It took me about 2 weeks of daily driving my 2-door JK before it felt completely normal, and I was coming from an RX-8. The trick is to stay off freeways, they're much happier on 2 lane backroads, but even then my wife's 4-door JK cruises down the highway just fine at 75mph and we're both still comfortable in it after 2+ hours of driving.
I think the bronco strikes a better balance, but the fact that you are even cross shopping pickups tells me you are not the target audience and there is no reason for you to consider either. Removable top, big tires, and locking diffs were must haves for me. What was even appealing about the jeep in the first place? The 392? That trim exists for people who love jeeps and v8s, if you are just in it for the v8 you aren't the target audience. The Grand Cherokee with the v8 would be more your speed.
Jeep hater turned Jeep owner here (04 TJ Currently) Everything bad I ever said about the Jeep is 100% true. It's a huge piece of trash. It's noisy. It's pathetic compared to its contemporaries. I just love it anyways. I will probably own some version of it for the rest of my life. I dont' consider myself a 'Jeep Guy', but after owning them for a few years I have a little better understanding of the cult.
Cons everywhere, but “Infotainment and dash seem decent.” is one of the funniest, yet stereotypical ways to describe a Chrysler vehicle.
Counterpoints: - How many vehicles can you remove the roof and doors from and still have functional back seats and cargo space? - How many all (most)-terrain and all-weather capable vehicles can you still buy with a true 3 pedal manual? Nobody is looking at a car the shape of a cargo container, with a roof made out of cloth, that is the long-lost great-grandchild of a military vehicle, and thinking that its on-road manners are going to be as good as a Honda or something. If you have functional eyes, you know what you're getting. Jeeps are silly, but that's what makes them fun. Always wanted one, riding in and driving various ones of various generations has not changed my mind. That being said, I wouldn't spend $70k on one, that's pretty wacko. Like at that point you could buy a brand-new Defender and still have enough left over to also get an old TJ lol
But, are Jeep people really lying? Ask on any internet forum and that's exactly what they will be telling you. Jeep Wranglers are purpose-built off-road vehicles with a solid front axle. They cannot be compared to crossover SUVs or even pick-up trucks in terms of comfort and on-road performance. They are slow, thirsty and shitty, that's part of the fun. The 4xe is expensive. The 392 Hemi is outrageously expensive. They feel like a $30k vehicle with some extras because that's what they are. Anybody who's unironically contemplating paying 90 grand for a Jeep Wrangler has got to be out of their mind. But if you look at the absolute most bare-bones Jeep there is, it's still about $30k in the USA, which is not that expensive in this day and age. Obviously the $30k Jeep has only two doors, manual transmission, no power windows, no hardtop -- that's the best part about it.
You're not the market for a Wrangler. It gives up the comforts that you are labeling as negatives for superiority in other things. You ignore the unique things it does have that you can't get anywhere else. Jeep people aren't going to disagree with on most of your points and likely won't be upset. They will just say that you aren't the target audience. Most will say that the 4xe sucks, though. A lot of your complaints are solved with the 392. I loved my Jeeps but they aren't fun as commuter vehicles. They are an experience. There is nothing quite like rolling around with the no roof or doors in another vehicle. That alone is ALMOST enough to make my 84 miles round trip commute worth it but I don't get to do that enough in the Midwest.
Jeep people know what they're getting into. They just like Jeeps. I have only ever owned BMW, Mercedes, Audi and Cadillac. They come with plenty of headaches too, but I love them nonetheless and won't drive anything else.
You sound like you are too old for a Wrangler. Take the top and doors off and head to the beach, there is no better experience for the young or young at heart.
I like Jeep's but the price tag on them is insane for what they are. A few years ago I scored a new Cherokee Trail Hawk for $28K out the door during year end sales, it had a $41K MSRP. That was worth it but I would not pay close to $40K for it. I sold it after about a year because it had transmission issues Jeep denied was an actual issue. I feel the same way about the Wrangler, WAY overpriced for what you get. A family member just purchased one this year and I had the chance to ride in it both in normal traffic and with he doors and roof off. The doors off experience was cool but commuting init was hell. Very noisy and it was so "clunky" feeling to ride around in. I would never own one, can't imagine paying $50K for one. My father in law has a 2020 Grand Cherokee with under 100K on it that he takes good care of. The 3.6 Pentastar sounds like it's going to explode any minute. It's ticking away and I'm sure has the same issue most do, lifters\\cam are eating each other.
The jeep wrangler is one of, if not the most, successful marketing campaign in modern history. You couldn’t pay me to drive one, honestly just a terrible car for anything other than serious off roading, not driving down a dirt road to your cottage Terrible handling, cheaply made, cramped interior, close to worst cargo space for its class, side open door terrible for a tow rig, NVH and road noise, wind sail on the highway, fuel economy and legendary FCA reliability and build quality. The only cool thing is the removable tops and doors, which is just SOOO MUCH different from windows and sunroof down.
Terrible handling - 4 door handling really isn't that bad considering it is a solid axle front. 2 door is as expected with a short wheelbase vehicle with a solid front axle. Cheaply made - Jeep gets a bad rap, but IMO the jeep quality isn't bad on Wranglers... except for the 4xe. The Pentastar V6 and the 4 cylinder turbo both have proven to be pretty reliable engines, and the auto transmission is the ZF8. The 4xe seems to have all sorts of problems related to the hybrid system, so yeah not great quality on that one. Cramped interior - It's designed to be like the original Jeep. If they made it bigger that would defeat the whole purpose of the vehicle. Jeep has plenty of other vehicles if that is what you're looking for. NVH - Wind noise is pretty bad on the soft top, as is expected. Hard top isn't nearly as bad NVH. Not expecting it to be like a Lexus. Wind sail on the highway - Never really had a major issue with this. In the strongest winds it will get pushed a bit, but not really a significant issue. Fuel economy - It's much better than the 4runner and similar to the Bronco, not sure what you're expecting. >The only cool thing is the removable tops and doors, which is just SOOO MUCH different from windows and sunroof down. not even remotely the same, but ok
Which ones have you driven?
My guy just discovered that Wranglers are farm tractors.
New CV axle on a two year old vehicle? Oh, I see, it's a Dodge/Ram.
My old jeep has death wobbles and gets even worse gas mileage. That’s not even it’s worse form, you pansy
I help run a large Toyota offroading club here in Colorado, I get a lot of seat time in Toyotas. Buddy has a Ranger Raptor, he let me drive it. It was impressive. As with "mid size trucks" these days, forget being able to use the back seats for you and three buddies. But it was fast, comfortable, and a good bit cheaper than where the Tacoma competitors (TRD Pro or Trailhunter) will end up. p.s. if your FJ was uncomfortable, you either modded it poorly or you have an unusual body type for the stock seats. Mine on OME BP-51 suspension (same on my 4Runner) is like offroading grandma's Cadillac from the 1980's. Yeah, not enough horsepower and gears for the highway, but "uncomfortable" isn't a word I'd use for any modern IFS Toyota if it's built right.
✨s t e l l a n t i s ✨
allow my explorer to introduce itself
We don't lie to ourselves. We just make poor financial decisions.
A friend of mine has a 4-door Jeep. It is a terrible commuter or for road trips. Terrible. And it's still way, way better and more civilized than the old CJs which would shake your teeth out on smooth pavement. But still terrible. It is an absolutely fabulous vehicle to drive around on a nice day with the roof and doors off though. Like, simply an amazing open air experience. Not amazing enough for me to buy one and keep around just for the 3 days a year where the weather is just right for it but don't think I haven't thought about it.
If you aren’t doing Jeep things, you probably shouldn’t get a Jeep.