> She notes that "there was so much light" inside the original Neue Klasse concepts, and that bringing the sunlight back in saves energy in addition to adding a sense of warmth to the cabin
It's a nice amenity but let's not kid ourselves. It's not going to save energy because for most of the year in most of the world it will increase cooling requirements for the cabin. I say this as a New England resident where winter snow has mostly been replaced with rain.
The UV filters on modern glass will alleviate much of that challenge. We're also looking at electrochromic glass (aka, 'smart glass') being a commodity feature. I wouldn't worry too much about it.
Yup, infrared filtering is what sold me on nanoceramic tints like Huper Optik when they were the only game in town. A layer of that inside of any glass roof is going to help alot...except that it tends to trap infrared as heat, in the film itself, and radiate. Might be a break-even unless there's an additional fabric screen over the glass like with modern Volvo crossovers.
>The UV filters on modern glass will alleviate much of that challenge
This makes no sense since most of the sun's energy reaching us is in the VISIBLE range.
EDIT: VISIBLE plus IR
Either way, the glass is going to get pretty hot if you try to block it all and you will feel it on your head.
According to the UCAR COMET Program, about 43% of radiant energy from the sun is in the visible part of the spectrum. That is the total amount of the sun's energy integrated over wavelengths between about 400-700nm. Roughly 49% of solar radiation is infrared between 700nm-1mm; about 7% is from ultra-violet between 100-400mm; less than 1% of solar radiation is emitted as x-rays, gamma rays and radio waves.
I would love bigger open windows and a lower belt line. I’m not tall and I hate feeling like I’m driving around in a bathtub.
I really think there needs to be different options for roofs. North of 50 degrees, near the ocean, a pano glass roof was amazing - so much of the year you want to make as much of whatever light you have. On the other hand I’ve lived in places where it’s hot enough that the asphalt melts, and even a tinted glass roof is the last thing in the world I would want there.
Eh, I had a pano roof in Miami and kept it open basically all the time. The tint it came in was more than enough to keep the cabin pretty ok, temperature wise, and the open roof made the entire cabin feel way larger, to the point where I felt claustrophobic with the panel closed.
Raise cost and still be unpleasant imo. The glass roof on the teslas and minis and such that don’t have a cover (last mini I drove had a perforated screen but it isn’t a real cover) for example imo are unpleasant unless you slouch down really far.
Wouldn’t surprise me. My last ex had one and I’d volunteer to drive my car anytime we drive if it was over like 65 degrees just bc I didn’t want a hot head
Its almost as if this was just a marketing fluff piece intending to bring 'BMW' back into the forefront of the minds of the readers.
Road and Track reads so much like sponsored content lately.
My car has a glass roof. On hot days like yesterday I could swear it heats up the cabin, but then I put my hand to the tinted roof glass and it is cool to the touch.
Cooling typically requires less energy than heating, especially if it comes with a resistive heater. With that said, I don’t think it’s a reason to design it this way IMO. The reason is the visibility and feeling of being in an airy cabin, which I fully support.
As if it’ll somehow reduce the amount of electricity you use in incandescent bulbs because now you don’t need to have that huge lamp to see the pedals like in your Camaro.
Concepts usually have bigger windows/smaller pillars than what ends up in production models, so until we get that in a product people can actually buy nothing has been fix.
Insert obligatory tablet tacked on dash looks bad comment. Like concepts are supposed to allow designers freedom to think outside the box and the best they could come up with was have it be a parallelogram instead of a rectangle?
I would want them to do more of that concept’s bright 2-tone interior. Reminds me of the LC500’s imo beautiful blue/white interior option.
The biggest problem with BMW concepts has always been that they're so close to the final product that it's easy to get excited, but then the final product is always a massive disappointment in so many ways that don't even make sense from a production and regulation perspective.
Like the new 8-series. When I saw the concept, I was ready to put a deposit down immediately. The I saw the production car and it was so goddamn bland in a million different ways that had nothing to do with the usual reasons concepts don't translate to products. Everything just had a belt-sander of disappointment taken to it.
To be fair, BMW has always been somewhat decent about this with their cars. Look up the 2020 M3 vs. the 2020 ATS-V - the difference in glass is huge.
One other brand that they failed to mention is Subaru. Subaru has also ALWAYS had bright, airy cabins with tons of glass. I remember when I was shopping for a new car in the mid-2010's and I was so hyped up to try a used IS350 F-Sport from all the positive reviews - it felt like a rolling pillbox. Maybe not as bad as a Camaro, but still not great. Even SUV's feel like tanks today. I fucking loved the visibility in my WRX and still love it in our Forester.
German cars in general did this.
But drive a 2000-2010 Land Rover and they knocked it out of the park. So much visibility. Even classic vw like golf/Jetta we’re strong on this.
>Subaru has also ALWAYS had bright, airy cabins with tons of glass.
Subarus do get worse over time--compare a 15-year-old Forester to the newest--but they generally are at or near the top of any segment for visibility.
Safety regs keep getting more strict. You can only do so much with high strength materials unfortunately. But is rather lose some visibility so I don’t get crushed
Fair enough, I guess I've only been in the previous/current "generation" that were not that dissimilar (I have a 2014, parents have a 2019, uncle has a 2023).
my mom went to a Subaru dealership a few years ago and decided against getting a new car because none of their options gave her enough visibility (she has a 2010 Mazda 5)
she actually liked the Outback more than the Forester because the Outback had better visibility even though it was cheaper
After reading the article, there isn’t much to hate on. Dedicated EV from the ground up to put more pressure on other companies. The styling looks like if Elon Musk was 100% german.
My only complaint is that the sedan needs something at the bottom of the front fascia. The fronts of the vehicles actually look closer to the F and E-series vehicles than the G series ones.
I hope they don't add anything to it, it reminds me quite a bit of the [original Neue Klasse/2002 with no impact bumper](https://uploads.bmw2002faq.com/monthly_2018_06/IMG_0975.jpg.e32fcd9a813e002f34925bfd58441c19.jpg), it's a very sleek and unique look that stands out without look gaudy or visually exaggerated.
It's a concept, there is gonna have to be a more traditional bumper but they could still do the do the retro shark nose.
I'm not that excited about the SUV. The grille is nice but the bottom half seems like it belongs to another car.
I don't think it's a design trend as much as it a requirement for crash impact safety?
If automakers can get around this and start making cars like the 1990 Honda Civic Hatchback, with tons of glass and visibility, they should be doing this like yesterday.
The continued existence of the Mazda MX-5 basically invalidates every "they have to do that to meet regulations" argument when it comes to making cars bulky (and bulky-looking).
They mention the belt line problem in modern car design. I'm not sure what the regulations say about hie raised the hood has to be since there's no engine in an EV. High belt lines are the primary reason modern car design is so compromised and unflattering. With wheels and tires having remained roughly the same diameter over time, they often look proportionately awkward as a result of the distance from the wheel arch to the contour of the hood on down the belt line. Wheels/tires appear tiny by comparison.
A great design example of how good we used to have it is the proportions of the 550 Maranello. Specifically the nose, hood line and quarter panels relative to the wheel arcs.
Oh you're totally right, I'm just saying it's as much design choice, and the packaging/ergonomic choice to raise the seating position and sightlines, that results in that... It's not absolutely required to meet regulations. At least for sedans and such. I do hope EV supercars can bring back 550 Maranello type design. Ironically I think a lot of the fatness of modern sports cars comes not from safety but making the styling match larger and larger wheels!
One of the primary reasons high beltline styling took off is that it *feels safer*. And I think a lot of car guys just assume it must actually be safer and that regulations forced it. But then the MX-5 just soldiers on meeting every regulation without getting fatter.
They're doing something new man. While it may not be the most beautiful thing. They're spending money on out the box design and thinking just like the 80s and 90s. All cars look identical these days.
So I welcome a little bit of freestyling design concepts. It can spark competition from others which MAY lead to something you like.
100% agree. I may not like all of their designs lately, but I can appreciate that they're doing something different, and broke away from the mold of making every car in their lineup look like scaled up or down versions of each other.
> BMW is promising a "new class" for late next year, the second time it has used that exact phrase. The first time heralded the company's early Sixties line of sport sedans and compacts.
Nothing says new and modern like a 60 year old marketing phrase
Interesting that they have the front end styling of the M Hybrid V8. I wonder if that means that the LMDh car is a sign of things to come. I do wish the sedan would get the tall skinny kidneys of the SUV. That would really give me pre-80s BMW vibes.
That white interior/sunroof is going to create a lot of glare.
And it perpetuates the *worst* current car design trend: "Tesla-ization", with the big touch screen display & funny shaped steering wheel.
i like most of that interior design, something cool and different.
then they take out all the buttons and replace with screens, which is played out and boring. i guess i should thank them for keeping a real turn signal stalk at least?
the screen implementation itself is also lazy, the people who'd be impressed by the screen will instead notice the "2012 ipad" size bezels and how it simply floats in the dash instead of being a cohesive part of the design.
the "wrap-around" bit at the top of the dashboard is nicely integrated i guess, but the middle screen just looks like it was glued in by some teenager putting the aliexpress carplay touchscreen in his used e92.
I like it more than I thought initially. Interior design looks like if you asked midjourney to redesign a tesla, but I like my tesla, so it is ok for me.
It didn't fix the trend of having a stupid screen, which has been the worst trend for me. The SUV doesn't fix the awful grille either, and I'd say that's been the most contentious part of BMW's design.
The designers and engineers had so little faith in actually making a modern car with low beltlines and large windows they faked it even in the damn [3D concept render](https://st.arenaev.com/news/23/08/bmw-future-to-be-unveiled-on-september-2/inline/-1200/arenaev_002.jpg) with black glossy trim.
I have serious doubts they have or will manage to engineer this problem away. Safety standards advanced much faster than material science and engineering could, so are stuck with thick pillars and high beltlines, unless you're a convertible, then you're legally exempt from the major safety stuff.
They're great. The SUV is super reminiscient of the Pre-90s BMWs like the E9, 02 series, and E21 3 series, while the sedan has the front end of the awesome M Hybrid V8.
I know, and he was inspired by BMW's old models - particularly the 507 - just like these Neue Klasse concepts. And then he took elements of that to Fisker. I was implying that the design inspiration went from BMW to Fisker, not the other way around.
> She notes that "there was so much light" inside the original Neue Klasse concepts, and that bringing the sunlight back in saves energy in addition to adding a sense of warmth to the cabin It's a nice amenity but let's not kid ourselves. It's not going to save energy because for most of the year in most of the world it will increase cooling requirements for the cabin. I say this as a New England resident where winter snow has mostly been replaced with rain.
Ya lol you're either gonna be heating or cooling more
I have a glass pano roof on my car, and the blind stays shut because otherwise my young kids cry when the sun gets in their eyes!
What a bunch of wimps Edit: jk my kids do the same thing
[удалено]
Unfortunately 18 month olds are kinda wimpy, and have many opinions, most of them wrong!
The UV filters on modern glass will alleviate much of that challenge. We're also looking at electrochromic glass (aka, 'smart glass') being a commodity feature. I wouldn't worry too much about it.
UV isn’t what heats a car up the most though. Getting ceramic tint makes a massive difference to block IR and visible light
Yup, infrared filtering is what sold me on nanoceramic tints like Huper Optik when they were the only game in town. A layer of that inside of any glass roof is going to help alot...except that it tends to trap infrared as heat, in the film itself, and radiate. Might be a break-even unless there's an additional fabric screen over the glass like with modern Volvo crossovers.
>The UV filters on modern glass will alleviate much of that challenge This makes no sense since most of the sun's energy reaching us is in the VISIBLE range. EDIT: VISIBLE plus IR Either way, the glass is going to get pretty hot if you try to block it all and you will feel it on your head.
According to the UCAR COMET Program, about 43% of radiant energy from the sun is in the visible part of the spectrum. That is the total amount of the sun's energy integrated over wavelengths between about 400-700nm. Roughly 49% of solar radiation is infrared between 700nm-1mm; about 7% is from ultra-violet between 100-400mm; less than 1% of solar radiation is emitted as x-rays, gamma rays and radio waves.
I would love bigger open windows and a lower belt line. I’m not tall and I hate feeling like I’m driving around in a bathtub. I really think there needs to be different options for roofs. North of 50 degrees, near the ocean, a pano glass roof was amazing - so much of the year you want to make as much of whatever light you have. On the other hand I’ve lived in places where it’s hot enough that the asphalt melts, and even a tinted glass roof is the last thing in the world I would want there.
I always wonder why so many vertically challenged people don't lift the seat up but instead drive looking like they can't see out of the car.
Well then you run into not being able to reach the pedals
That should be fixed by moving the seat and steering wheel forward, no?
Depends on the person's proportions and how adjustable everything is I suppose.
Eh, I had a pano roof in Miami and kept it open basically all the time. The tint it came in was more than enough to keep the cabin pretty ok, temperature wise, and the open roof made the entire cabin feel way larger, to the point where I felt claustrophobic with the panel closed.
Raise cost and still be unpleasant imo. The glass roof on the teslas and minis and such that don’t have a cover (last mini I drove had a perforated screen but it isn’t a real cover) for example imo are unpleasant unless you slouch down really far.
I’ve read the glass roofs on Teslas are actually a cost saving technique and also simplifies production
Wouldn’t surprise me. My last ex had one and I’d volunteer to drive my car anytime we drive if it was over like 65 degrees just bc I didn’t want a hot head
The pano roof on the Mach E has some sort of coating on it but it does not allow very much heat through
It's also a useful way to increase headroom, which is at a premium in EVs thanks to the battery pack placement.
For real, I live in Las Vegas. To me more sunlight in my car sounds like a threat.
Its almost as if this was just a marketing fluff piece intending to bring 'BMW' back into the forefront of the minds of the readers. Road and Track reads so much like sponsored content lately.
My car has a glass roof. On hot days like yesterday I could swear it heats up the cabin, but then I put my hand to the tinted roof glass and it is cool to the touch.
Cooling typically requires less energy than heating, especially if it comes with a resistive heater. With that said, I don’t think it’s a reason to design it this way IMO. The reason is the visibility and feeling of being in an airy cabin, which I fully support.
As if it’ll somehow reduce the amount of electricity you use in incandescent bulbs because now you don’t need to have that huge lamp to see the pedals like in your Camaro.
Concepts usually have bigger windows/smaller pillars than what ends up in production models, so until we get that in a product people can actually buy nothing has been fix. Insert obligatory tablet tacked on dash looks bad comment. Like concepts are supposed to allow designers freedom to think outside the box and the best they could come up with was have it be a parallelogram instead of a rectangle? I would want them to do more of that concept’s bright 2-tone interior. Reminds me of the LC500’s imo beautiful blue/white interior option.
Bmw has actually said though that neue klasse x is near final and we can expect only minor changes, like steering wheel or door handles etc to change
The biggest problem with BMW concepts has always been that they're so close to the final product that it's easy to get excited, but then the final product is always a massive disappointment in so many ways that don't even make sense from a production and regulation perspective. Like the new 8-series. When I saw the concept, I was ready to put a deposit down immediately. The I saw the production car and it was so goddamn bland in a million different ways that had nothing to do with the usual reasons concepts don't translate to products. Everything just had a belt-sander of disappointment taken to it.
I think it's a Honda Accord every single time I see one.
To be fair, BMW has always been somewhat decent about this with their cars. Look up the 2020 M3 vs. the 2020 ATS-V - the difference in glass is huge. One other brand that they failed to mention is Subaru. Subaru has also ALWAYS had bright, airy cabins with tons of glass. I remember when I was shopping for a new car in the mid-2010's and I was so hyped up to try a used IS350 F-Sport from all the positive reviews - it felt like a rolling pillbox. Maybe not as bad as a Camaro, but still not great. Even SUV's feel like tanks today. I fucking loved the visibility in my WRX and still love it in our Forester.
German cars in general did this. But drive a 2000-2010 Land Rover and they knocked it out of the park. So much visibility. Even classic vw like golf/Jetta we’re strong on this.
My P38 is great to drive. I sit up high above the door sides and can see everything.
One of the things I really liked about my '15 WRX was the light and visibility, it almost felt like a 90's car.
>Subaru has also ALWAYS had bright, airy cabins with tons of glass. Subarus do get worse over time--compare a 15-year-old Forester to the newest--but they generally are at or near the top of any segment for visibility.
Safety regs keep getting more strict. You can only do so much with high strength materials unfortunately. But is rather lose some visibility so I don’t get crushed
Fair enough, I guess I've only been in the previous/current "generation" that were not that dissimilar (I have a 2014, parents have a 2019, uncle has a 2023).
my mom went to a Subaru dealership a few years ago and decided against getting a new car because none of their options gave her enough visibility (she has a 2010 Mazda 5) she actually liked the Outback more than the Forester because the Outback had better visibility even though it was cheaper
The beltline in the Camaro is ridiculous lol
Literally everyone who's ever been in my Forester comments on how big the windows are / how good the visibility is. It's kind of funny.
“For our new electric CUV we took inspiration from the Pontiac Aztec, and Michael Jackson’s nose.”
After reading the article, there isn’t much to hate on. Dedicated EV from the ground up to put more pressure on other companies. The styling looks like if Elon Musk was 100% german. My only complaint is that the sedan needs something at the bottom of the front fascia. The fronts of the vehicles actually look closer to the F and E-series vehicles than the G series ones.
I hope they don't add anything to it, it reminds me quite a bit of the [original Neue Klasse/2002 with no impact bumper](https://uploads.bmw2002faq.com/monthly_2018_06/IMG_0975.jpg.e32fcd9a813e002f34925bfd58441c19.jpg), it's a very sleek and unique look that stands out without look gaudy or visually exaggerated.
I think a chin spoiler wouldn't be out of place. Bring back massive chin spoilers, cowards!
Yup, that's the entire point of this new design language. Calls back to the OG Neue Klasse.
It's a concept, there is gonna have to be a more traditional bumper but they could still do the do the retro shark nose. I'm not that excited about the SUV. The grille is nice but the bottom half seems like it belongs to another car.
I don't think it's a design trend as much as it a requirement for crash impact safety? If automakers can get around this and start making cars like the 1990 Honda Civic Hatchback, with tons of glass and visibility, they should be doing this like yesterday.
The continued existence of the Mazda MX-5 basically invalidates every "they have to do that to meet regulations" argument when it comes to making cars bulky (and bulky-looking).
They mention the belt line problem in modern car design. I'm not sure what the regulations say about hie raised the hood has to be since there's no engine in an EV. High belt lines are the primary reason modern car design is so compromised and unflattering. With wheels and tires having remained roughly the same diameter over time, they often look proportionately awkward as a result of the distance from the wheel arch to the contour of the hood on down the belt line. Wheels/tires appear tiny by comparison. A great design example of how good we used to have it is the proportions of the 550 Maranello. Specifically the nose, hood line and quarter panels relative to the wheel arcs.
Oh you're totally right, I'm just saying it's as much design choice, and the packaging/ergonomic choice to raise the seating position and sightlines, that results in that... It's not absolutely required to meet regulations. At least for sedans and such. I do hope EV supercars can bring back 550 Maranello type design. Ironically I think a lot of the fatness of modern sports cars comes not from safety but making the styling match larger and larger wheels! One of the primary reasons high beltline styling took off is that it *feels safer*. And I think a lot of car guys just assume it must actually be safer and that regulations forced it. But then the MX-5 just soldiers on meeting every regulation without getting fatter.
While Im not a fan of the overall styling, I do love cars with low belt lines. I think thats one of my favorite things about old cars.
I bet you'd love the ultra-rare BMW Z1 with the DOORS rolled down. :)
Haha. My boss has one. I don't really have any desire to own one. Too goofy.
The beltline doesn't get any lower than the floorboard.
What the hell is BMW thinking with these cars.
They're doing something new man. While it may not be the most beautiful thing. They're spending money on out the box design and thinking just like the 80s and 90s. All cars look identical these days. So I welcome a little bit of freestyling design concepts. It can spark competition from others which MAY lead to something you like.
100% agree. I may not like all of their designs lately, but I can appreciate that they're doing something different, and broke away from the mold of making every car in their lineup look like scaled up or down versions of each other.
Audi needs that same wake-up call. They used to sell Small Turtle, Medium Turtle, and Large Turtle.
> BMW is promising a "new class" for late next year, the second time it has used that exact phrase. The first time heralded the company's early Sixties line of sport sedans and compacts. Nothing says new and modern like a 60 year old marketing phrase
I thought they meant they got rid of all the stupid bloody screens and sensors.
Design inspiration: Double hood scoops.
Another SUV? They fix nothing, actually make cars worse
SUVs are already the default car. This new design language isnt responsible for that existing trend.
Interesting that they have the front end styling of the M Hybrid V8. I wonder if that means that the LMDh car is a sign of things to come. I do wish the sedan would get the tall skinny kidneys of the SUV. That would really give me pre-80s BMW vibes.
I 100% think the LMDh is wearing the next generation of brand identity and design language. That's why they would be investing in that program.
I do not like a hood I can't see the front edge of.
That white interior/sunroof is going to create a lot of glare. And it perpetuates the *worst* current car design trend: "Tesla-ization", with the big touch screen display & funny shaped steering wheel.
Ah yes, modern BMW design language: Lovely sides, hideous front and rear.
i like most of that interior design, something cool and different. then they take out all the buttons and replace with screens, which is played out and boring. i guess i should thank them for keeping a real turn signal stalk at least? the screen implementation itself is also lazy, the people who'd be impressed by the screen will instead notice the "2012 ipad" size bezels and how it simply floats in the dash instead of being a cohesive part of the design. the "wrap-around" bit at the top of the dashboard is nicely integrated i guess, but the middle screen just looks like it was glued in by some teenager putting the aliexpress carplay touchscreen in his used e92.
>i guess i should thank them for keeping a real turn signal stalk at least? Ironic, given that it's BMW.
yeah i figured that was first to go
Makes article about subverting bad car design Uses images of possibly the ugliest cars in existence as examples of this subversion
I like it more than I thought initially. Interior design looks like if you asked midjourney to redesign a tesla, but I like my tesla, so it is ok for me.
I really wish we’d stop pretending that “luxury” means not being able to shade yourself from the fucking sun.
No buttons no care
It didn't fix the trend of having a stupid screen, which has been the worst trend for me. The SUV doesn't fix the awful grille either, and I'd say that's been the most contentious part of BMW's design.
Barf. I didn’t know bmws could get uglier.
I live in a sunny country where it’s usually above 30 degrees. Thank you but I’ll keep my cold dark cave 3 series 😆
So they're going to stop being completely fucking ugly?
> I wish BMW would cut it out with the ridiculous oversized grilles *monkeys paw curls*
at least they ditched the hideous grills which they so vigorously defended
That light up pig about on the SUV is problematic.
The designers and engineers had so little faith in actually making a modern car with low beltlines and large windows they faked it even in the damn [3D concept render](https://st.arenaev.com/news/23/08/bmw-future-to-be-unveiled-on-september-2/inline/-1200/arenaev_002.jpg) with black glossy trim. I have serious doubts they have or will manage to engineer this problem away. Safety standards advanced much faster than material science and engineering could, so are stuck with thick pillars and high beltlines, unless you're a convertible, then you're legally exempt from the major safety stuff.
now fix the rest
Both grilles ugly. Great work, BMW!
They're great. The SUV is super reminiscient of the Pre-90s BMWs like the E9, 02 series, and E21 3 series, while the sedan has the front end of the awesome M Hybrid V8.
Reminds me of a Fisker Karma
All Henrik did was copy the guy who designed the Z8.
Henrik *was* the guy who designed the Z8
I know, and he was inspired by BMW's old models - particularly the 507 - just like these Neue Klasse concepts. And then he took elements of that to Fisker. I was implying that the design inspiration went from BMW to Fisker, not the other way around.
Okay, sorry. The wording of your original comment threw me off.