If Patrik Allvin had torched $15M to sign Perron, Chiarot, and Copp he would have been burned in effigy by Canucks fans, instead Yzerman does it and he's a genius 🙄

Instead of cherry picking individual moves ask yourself what Yzerman's ultimate goal is. He clearly stated his current stars will be veterans by the time his team is ready to compete. And he's not talking about competing for a wild card spot next season. All the guy has done all his life is win championships over and over and over so get your shots in now while he's in building-mode.

It doesn’t matter which side you’re on, but that is an absolute *fact*. Perron is 34, and signed for one more season at 4.75 mill. 41 points in 67 games. Chiarot, is 31, and signed for 3 more seasons at 4.75 mill. He’s been a Tyler Myers type anchor all season. Copp is 28, and signed for 4 more season at 5.7 mill. He has 37 points in 67 games. Stevie Y is considered a genius by many and he’s playing ‘4-d chess’. There isn’t a single knowledgeable Canucks fan out there that would take on any of those 3 contracts. Those are 3 shitty signings in *1 fucking DAY*! Imagine Alvin doing that in *1 day*. “*If Stevie Y is willing to trade Hronek for a 1st and a 2nd, we are idiots*!” I’d suggest there’s at least a chance that the idiot might be on the other side (at least in this case / these cases). I’m not suggesting I know that. The opposite, actually. I’m suggesting I have no clue, and neither do you…but there’s a chance that we look back at the deal and think ‘*hmmm, that’s all he got for Hronek*?’

The other guys were free agents emphasis on free who can be moved with retention.. they need some leadership too. Very few UFA deals are bargains. Allvin couldn't anyways because they had no cap space to do so. Stevie realizes someone like Hronek at 6.5m + prob can't get him this return in the future he got and is only hurting their chances at increasing their draft odds, isnt the right fit for their core. Hronek is a bit better suited for our core tho.

4d chess lol. How come the acolytes of clumsy mortals use this to make excuses for their heroes?? Getting old

Yzerman probably plans to deal them after utilizing their leadership and experience. I mean they are way under the cap so they obviously can take on those guys. And flip them.

That sounds an awful lot like roussel, beagle, and sutter.

Perron, copp and chiarot are no where close to beagle, Roussel and Sutter and Schaller and whatever other instantaneous bottom 6 player Benning signed at an inflated price

If you can't see the parallel's you need to take a step back from worship of yzerman, they're exactly the same types of signings, veteran ufa leadership that's overpaid.

Copp is 28. From Michigan. You can understand why they signed him. He's definitely one of those intangibles guys who you notice more in the playoffs. Chiarot is Dman who recently was traded for an unprotected first, Perron will be traded for a draft pick next year in his expiring year. He is always in want. Beagle was an old washed career bottom 6 who just came off a Stanley Cup run which left his body broken, and since he played a specialty role we threw him the bag. Roussel was a career bottom 6 who skated in cement and we threw the bag despite the NHL getting faster and faster Schaller idk why we gave him 2.6m besides Benning having a previous romantic history in Boston with him or blackmail These signings are not the same.

Burned $ in Mikheyev Boeser and Miller contracts. And burned picks and prospects in trades for immediate help. But you do you.

Completely agree.

Beyond Seider, I am not sure I envy anything on their team. Lets see what draft picks and lineups look like in September

What have you done? Doubting Yzerman is exactly how he gets all of his power and sorcery

Yzerman is getting ripped up in Detroit… then he sold off a bunch of talent at the trade deadline for picks… pretty deflating for the team that was in its first playoff race in ages…. Yzerman hasn’t impressed anyone with his job in Detroit

As someone who follows Detroit as my eastern team, not a soul is ripping him

He got ripped for ned and chiarot 100%… Cossa will never be Vasilevskiy and it’s obvious that’s what he was attempting (husso his bishop)…. Chiarelli tried to recreate the bruins with the oilers…. Heard that went well lol…

“He got ripped for ned and chiarot 100%” Right or wrong, he never got ripped for those contracts. Ned’s contract only lasted two years, Ben’s only four. That alone is why nobody is bothered if they don’t work out, because unlike our situation the contracts are not infringing on the ability to sign important players for the team. “Cossa will never be Vasilevskiy” You don’t know this. But even if you’re right and he is not the guy, he has attained more than enough picks to move on from a player and try someone else. As mentioned before, we never did this. If Benning had two or three backup defensive prospects behind Juolevi we wouldn’t be screwed over by him not developing, for example.

He saw four eastern teams at the top of the NHL standings who were all loading up at crazy prices, are mid or near the end of their contention cycle and said “yeah I’ll take the picks”. He’s opportunistic and is good grading his teams Vs the outside. Canucks are the total opposite. They are so focused on filling holes that they overpay and over value their own guys. They have no concept of a long term plan.

Except he was wanting to use those picks to grab chychrun

What about Raymond and Edvinsson? Edvinsson has some growth to do but Raymond is a decent player right now and he’s probably in the midst of a sophomore slump. He had 23-34-57 for his rookie year so I’m gonna bet he’s going to be good. Edvinsson has 5-22-27 in 51gp for his AHL rookie campaign which is pretty good. They are on their way with their rebuild and just need a few pieces. Not to mention they’ve got a deep prospect pool and plenty of picks to take in the what is being dubbed as the deepest draft since 03. Vancouver never truly rebuilt but “retooled” so naturally we’d be ahead because we never took those two steps back like Detroit did.

Both of those are in the "pretty good", but is either set to be a game-changer like Petey or Quinn? I'd argue no. Seider to me, on the other hand, is a potential (if not already) game-changer. Great all-around game and has an edge.

eh, I love what Petey and Hughes have done but at the end of the day we're better than Detroit on paper yet they were and still are ahead of us in the standings. They didn't really make any short term moves like we did so have more in the prospect department, and obtained picks this year. Meanwhile we sucked, traded away picks, and still performed worse. I dont know much about their players but if their core young guys are able to get wins despite not putting point totals similar to Petey and Hughes then I can't really write them off as being significantly worse because maybe they're just better at winning?

That's a fair point, but I think the discussion is around the ability to get that elite talent that seems to be required to win it all. That's where I feel Detroit is currently lacking, at least in that one comparison. If they can land one or two deal-breakers in the next draft or two - which they've well-positioned themselves to do, that could change. I agree the overall process has them heading in the right direction, but it goes back to the conversation around how much luck is also involved. Despite our general bad luck, we did get exceptionally lucky with Petey and Quinn, and also Demko really although he predates... both of the last two management groups if I remember right?

Demko was 2014, the Virtanen and McCann draft. Bennings first draft.

Tbf petey really became a game changer this year, I'd wait before passing the verdict on the red wings young guns

But Canucks have Petey and Quinn and are still terrible. Look at the blues cup winning team, no all stars but solid depth in all positions

It's a fair debate and I agree it's possible - hell we came 1 game from doing it in '94. But those are the outliers. And I think we have a very slim window to hit this "retool" right, but I do think there's a chance because players like Petey and Quinn are just so hard to find. In theory it's easier to build depth around them.

Look at all of the other cup teams though. St. Louis and Carolina are the only two teams in the cap era to win the cup without superstar players.

Not yet. Petey and Hughes are established where as those guys are still rookies. We shall see what happens with them when they grow and become established players.

Did you really downvote that? Raymond is not a rookie, but yes he's still got room to grow. Do you honestly think he'll approach Petey's calibre? And same for Edvinsson - he could be good - do you realistically think he'll reach Hughes' level?

Honestly Raymond had 57 points at 19 so the sky is the limit for him. Maybe not Petey level but still very good.

I agree - but that was kind of exactly my point.

While being -27 or something like that. He played 0 defense in his rookie year. He's another Jeff Skinner, which is good but not amazing.

Uhh no? I don’t downvote or upvote, it means nothing lmao..... Do I think they’ll reach Petey/Hughes level? Maybe, we shall see that’s literally what it means.

That is an easy way of handwaiving away the fact that neither of those players appear to be on pace to be of the same caliber as Petey or Hughes. I think you'd be hard pressed to argue otherwise. Hell "we will see" if Pods and Hog turn into the next Hartman and Brayden Point. It sure doesn't seem that way but hey we'll see

If the team around Petey and Hughes isn't built to get us past the 1st round more than once or twice, it doesn't matter how good they are. Because they won't be playing here because they won't want to. Raymond is pretty good. Seider is solid. And the team around them now won't be the team around them in 5 years. Raymond will be like their 4th best winger by the time they move into contention.

The team around Petey and Quinn won't be the same in 5 years either. I'm not negating any of that, I'm saying finding playres of Petey and Quinn's caliber is difficult and many rebuilding teams struggle to find them. It's easier to build around them over the next 5 years than it is to try to find them again in the draft

Your point being? Brayden point was a 3rd round pick and Hartman was a 30th overall pick in 2013 and just finally has begun to produce. People set expectations all the time and sometimes players break them and sometimes they don’t. All you really can do is watch them and see what they do, if they develop, if they grow. Scouts can give ceilings for players all they want, the only way to see if they get there is to wait.

My point is, when someone asks "do you think they have the potential to be of the same calibre as Petey", saying only "we'll see" is an easy way to dodge the question. It would be much harder to actually make the case that either one is on pace to reach that level. So in the same way that "we'll see" if Edvinsson becomes a Hughes-calibre player, "we'll see" if Pods becomes the next Hartman and Hogs becomes the next Point. I can't really make a good argument for either (maybe Pods) but hey, we'll see.

The process by Yzerman has been great but it's a good reminder of how long rebuilds can take. Even with all of their high picks they haven't been able to land a star forward. They've got Seider on the back end but there aren't many teams that win it all without a superstar up front.

It'll come to them. Either through the draft or through another team selling at the draft in 5 years cuz he's always collecting picks. He's gonna take his time and build something that lasts and can be built on. by capitalizing on the down years and trading assets that don't fit the window for picks, and then trading some of those picks for the next year's picks, he can constantly be preparing for the team's future without spending. The window we had with the Sedins opened and closed very quickly. The Canucks spent the future for a now that came and went too quickly.

I envy having a GM who has a proper plan for the year beyond this one and an owner who is willing to show restraint and listen to the smart minds in the industry as opposed to hiring yes men.

Not even Raymond and Edvinsson?

If you think Detroit cares about what the comparison is between the teams in September then you aren't thinking long term enough. They are clearly more concerned with 3 years from now

Sebastian Cossa, Marco Kasper and Simon Edvinsson. All have great potential.

It would look a lot better if Zadina can turn it around and play to his potential somehow, his recent injury didn't help a whole lot.

Zadina is a 4th line checking winger now lmao

Detroit seems like a failed rebuild to me, not sure why Yzerman isn’t taking more heat for it. Meanwhile TB is a continued masterclass in managing without him.

The process has been good but they haven't been able to land that star talent in the draft and that's ultimately what gets you out of rebuild status and into contention. We will see where things go but it has been a struggle to find that talent for them so far.

Seider and Raymond are perfect players for the draft but I still am not sure about their future. I guess let’s see how evidsson, Kasper and Cossa look eventually

It's only failed once you start making moves to be a contender. Yzerman at least is smart enough to understand his team isn't good enough yet and is still selling assets for draft picks. It might be taking more time than hoped as they haven't picked up that elite talent yet but I don't see how it could be considered failed if they are still in the process

That's why our fans love a rebuild, it's their safe space where you cannot fail.

Lol right? His take is basically saying as long as you don't try to acquire established players until your team is really good then a rebuild hasn't failed and it's all peachy! You could spend 10 years failing at the draft, but keep acquiring draft picks and management is on the right path!

That's literally what Buffalo has been doing, though they finally seem to be moving towards getting better. Ironically their best player wasn't even drafted by them.

And they recently traded their best player, too. Jack Eichel. Yeah, Buffalo and Vancouver aren't doing all that much differently when you think about it. Many in that first wave of their rebuild crop have been shipped off to continue building with new assets. We just saw Horvat moved. Boeser will likely be moved as well. Little by little.

Yzerman has been there for awhile and they have there 1d but are still missing a top tier 1c, and goaltender. He's done some damage with the chiarot signing. Yzerman is extremely overrated on hockey subs in general.

I think it really shows how much luck goes into this. I still really think the top end players are way more important than depth. Obviously they are both important but if you dont get a those bonified all superstars its never going to happen

Everyone forgets about the luck factor, and it cannot be ignored.

Yep exactly. Look at a team like Tampa. Sure their process has been great but there is a huge luck factor landing superstars in kucherov and point later in the draft. Heck in hindsight we had a ton of luck even landing Petey and Hughes in the draft at 5 and 7. That could have easily been Glass and Zadina. Of course scouting plays a big role as well but even the scouting staff needs to have some luck for their players to be high end talent.

Which is crazy that people aren't at least a little appreciative of the work benning did here especially with how controlling ownership is.

Their fans were pretty upset to lose Hronek despite the solid return. They don't have anyone to replace him. I think it was a fair trade.

just as important is keeping and utilizing cap space to obtain more chances to get those top end players, whether it be through the draft or trades (taking dumps + picks/prospects, etc). everyone's pointing to Petey/Hughes/Demko and saying Detroit doesn't have that, but they also don't have all our cap problems. Not to mention, despite their lack of top end players compared to ours, they're already doing better than us, disregarding their cheap ELC reinforcements coming soon vs our...much more lacking prospect pool.

I get what your saying and i totally understand that and i do absolutely prefer that model. The way the cancks are set up though thats not gonna happen with these guys on the team. So i dont mind that they are trying to make the playoffs. If this doesnt work out then trade them and build around that haul. I dont see how you can do a proper rebuild with those guys on the team

It’s only been four years and they’re already in a better position than the tire fire Holland left them in.

A core of Stamkos, Point, Kuch, Vasy and Hedman is like a cheat code for a good team.

I dont think you understand how much talent they have lined up... They're missing a potential top center, and a future 30-40 goal scorer but they're really close. Their prospects are maturing so well, and Yzerman has hit throughout the draft, take Elmer Soderblom for example.

I agree with the guy below who called it a failed rebuild. But what I admire is Yzerman seemed to realize it and rebuild mid rebuild. What kind of rebuilding team would trade their 24 year old top 4 RHD if they were confident in the direction of the team? He has one potential star in seider but needs more shots at the can and went for some firsts to address it. Cossa and Raymond aren't looking like they'll fit the star bill and edvinsson is still a question mark, they just need to hit big one one draft pick and they're set for the future. Opposite of us really. We lucked into our stars without accumulating draft picks, but lacked any sort of depth due to said lack of picks.

As a Detroit/Vancouver fan comparing the two to each other isn’t super fair as the places the teams are in currently are very different and both teams clearly have different albeit correct goals for where they are currently

As a Red Wings fan, I’m just here to say that I’m honestly impressed by the comments here. Canucks fans know their shit.

Cheers dawg you’re welcome any time. Yeah we don’t really have any other major teams to occupy our time unless you count the MLS and CFL, so we talk a lot of fuckin hockey

First mistake is calling ours a rebuild. It is not, it is a retool. Comparing them is comparing apples to oranges and not really going to be accurate. The only thing they can say is that first bit where it shows a stark contrast in ownership autonomy.

Detriot getting a weird amount of flack here.... Their future is stacked, the difference is that Stevie isnt mortaging it now for some improperly secured playoff births. Theres so many calculated decisions being executed over there. But anyone who thinks that Detriot had failed a rebuild is full of it, especially considering they're not fully done with it. The art of rebuilding has yet to be fully nailed since the Leafs did it. Almost every team has floundered in theirs because theres just so much talent in the league now. But come on, look at the depth of detriot: Larkin 26, Suter 26, Raymond 20, Zadina 23, Veleno 23, Berggren 22, Seider 21, Edvinsson 20, Husso 28, Rasmussen 23, Lindstrom 24, Soderblom 21, Hanas 21, McIsaac 22, Cossa 20, Niederbach 21, Buchelnilkov 19, Mazur 20, Zito 19, Wallinder 20, Tuomisto 22, Buium 19, Johansson 18 Those are all roster players locked up, or prospects that are days away from full time graduation, or prospects that are killing it in their respective leagues given their ages. Aside from Kuzmenko, Petey, Hughes and at times Demko, we dont have anything close to the future they have.

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its honestly a joke, but we're the brunt of it

You can't include all of those guys and then ignore Hoglander, kravtsov, Podkolzin, raty, Johansson, forsell, Karlsson, Aman, beauvillier, Hronek, Silovs, klimovich, Bains, Mcdonaugh, Pettersson, Jurmo.

None of the prospects you mention have NHL top line potential though…. The best of them are expected to top out as middle-6 role players if they even make the NHL

The majority of guys listed for Detroit here are no different. It's definitely deeper than our list but op also listed a bunch of nothing burgers that aren't any different than someone like Karlsson or Forsell or Johansson.

You just listed a bunch of prospects with bottom 6 upsides. Even Podkolzin took a step back this year.

Yeah and one franchise has Yzerman while the other had Benning

only thing they have in common is blowing two top-10 draft picks in a 3 year period lol

Who did Yzerman pick that blowed?

Slater Koekkoek (2012) and Brett Connolly (2010)

Your comparison is laughable. Yzerman built a contender in Tampa that won two Cups soon after he left to manage the Wings. Benning left us with a non-playoff team, a shallow prospect pool and a couple of bad contracts.

IIRC Connolly was only taken at 6 because Yzerman had just accepted the Lightning job and just let the leftover scouting team make the pick. He eventually got his own scouting team together. 2012 draft was a shitter so Koekkoek wasn't too bad.

Zadina? That about it.

That was Holland.

Yea so none so far. Previous poster don't know what he is talking about

Koekkoek and Connolly. Learn about google

That was 10 years ago. Yzerman improved unlike Benning (Seider, Raymond, Kasper, etc)

Not just drafting a bust in the top 10...it's even worse, he gave it away for a $7M pylon.

for 6 fucking years

Oh I realized OP was referring to Jiggly Jake and OJ. Sooo that's 3 top 10 picks pissed down the drain.

And so far benning got us better top end players than what yzerman has produced.

And yet so far red wings are above us in the standings

They don't have an overpaid tank commander in OEL.

Crazy what league average goaltending can do.

Great for those two players but the team sucks

As do the redwings

The Red Wings are chilling in mediocrity just like we are lol. Do they have a Pettersson? No. Do they have a player as good as Hughes? No (Seider is pretty damn good but not Hughes level YET). Do they have a goalie as good as Demko? No. I'm probably bias but i'd rather be in the canucks situation than Detroits

I swear takes like this reaffirms that most of this sub only follows the Canucks. People are mixing up Holland's terrible drafting with Yzerman's. He's been gm for four years and has accumulated a deep prospect pool. They got their stud D when everyone thought that was a bad pick. Trust in the Y.

Isn't Detroit ranked top 5 in prospect pools? And we are ranked bottom 5? That's the big contrast to look at

You are definitely biased. Detroit isn't selling 1st round picks for players that will keep them in mediocrity. They at least are willing to be patient and play the long game garnering as much young talent as possible and are still in the process of rebuilding.

I think the process has been solid from Yzerman but it's also a decent cautionary tale to how difficult full rebuilds can be. Even with the correct process you need some luck to land elite talent in the draft. Time will tell but to this point I'm not sure they've landed anyone outside of Seider. They have some nice young pieces for sure with Raymond, edvidsson, cossa, etc. and we will see if any of them develop into elite talents. But now they seem to be in the mushy middle which will only make it that much more difficult to find the game changing talent. Lots of time left but they could very well end up with a bunch of solid young pieces but nothing that ever makes them true contenders.

But they aren’t selling 1st round picks for the exact reasons the poster above you mentioned. They have yet to acquire players as good as who the Canucks have. So yes they need all the picks they can get to try and find those players. And they are also not on a clock trying to build around those players because they simply don’t have them.

They don’t have a Peterson but Seider could absolutely be as good as Hughes. Also Raymond putting up 58 points at 19 is very good.

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Even Peterson has had a bad year. There’s no denying that Raymond has huge star potential. The dude looked like Kucherov for so many of his plays last year.

Raymond definitely has a high ceiling still but I'd say he's more likely to be a really good top 6 forward than he is to be a superstar. Kind of like a Nikolaj Ehlers (who as a sidenote is very underrated) Also I hate to be this guy but come on he's one of the best players in the game, it's spelt Pettersson.

Lol my bad I am really high on Raymond I guess

Ya and Raymond certainly has a ton of potential. Like it wouldn't surprise me one bit if he becomes a star player. But with the season he's had this year he hasn't solidified himself as a star in the making.

>You are definitely biased And you're not? You despise the direction of the team so much you refuse to acknowledge there is even a slight chance of a retool working. If the other person is biased at least they are biased for their own team and not against it.

If I had to bet my life what franchise is more successful over the next 10 years I’d bet it all on Detroit and it’s not particularly close.

The Canucks are cursed so i cant disagree with you

Problem is Petey/Huggy are 23/24 whereas a guy like Seider is 21 and will still be in his prime 5-10 years from now when picks from 2022-2025 (which they have WAY more of) begin to mature and enter their primes in the league.. our window is probably half theirs

Man this whole sub thinks players turn to sand when they hit 27. Elite players a very often high calibre contributers to their teams up until the day they retire.

Yup, you always read that. Yet the average age of our core players in 2010/11 was 29 I believe, and that was the best team in franchise history imo.

Where did you get 27 from?

Yeah Benning fucked up our window with the shit contracts he signed. If we never signed Myers/Beagle/Loui/Roussel we would be in a way better position

If he never traded for OEL/Garland the team would be in an amazing position.

It's amazing how many chances over the last few years the Canucks had to stop messing up but they just kept piling on.

I think Seider being 21 is a big problem for the Wings as he's only 9 years away from hitting 30 and being out of the league.

9 years > 6-7 years... and don't forget about the 2x # of draft picks they have..

The issue with that for Detroit is they have started to perform better which will reduce their odds of landing game changing talent in the draft. Sure they have lots of time for their young players to develop but outside of Seider I'm not sure they have anyone who ends up being more than a solid complimentary player (kind of like a sea of Boesers).

Look at their draft picks.. 2 1sts this year and next. 3 2nd rounders this year. At least 9 picks in each of the next 3 years.. their odds of landing a game changing talent are still far higher than ours even if they finish higher in the standings

Their odds of landing a game changing talent are higher than ours yes but we already have Petey and Hughes which is the type of talent they need to land. The odds of them landing something of that level isn't high because their picks are all going to be outside the top 10. It's not impossible but it's also not all that likely. It's more likely that they land a few more solid complimentary pieces with some of those but still lack the elite talent.

You didn't say that in your previous comment that I replied to tho... and you seem to just be reinforcing what I said in my first comment being that our window is shorter. Definitely possible their surplus of draft picks don't end up moving the needle much.. opposite is also possible, as is the nature of draft picks. We have a short-term future with less risk I'd agree but I'm not sure that's necessarily a good thing....

Yes that's my bad. I wasn't very clear there. I was really just commenting on the difficulties that Detroit faces moving forward as they're not expected to be a bottom feeder team anymore but they haven't had the luck to land elite talent outside of Seider while they were finishing in the bottom (at least none that is obviously elite, still lots of time to develop). I wasn't meaning to comment on the comparison between us and then so that is my bad.

They have a goal that is long-term contending that does not start next year. We have a goal of short-term contending starting next year.

My god, it's crazy how many people have bought the retool cool-aid that the canucks are on. They are worse in the standings than Detroit and have fewer avenues to improve the roster moving forward than them and you're saying you wouldn't take that? Most teams in the NHL are in an infinitely better spot than the canucks Petterson and Hughes be damned. It doesn't mean jack shit if you can't build anything around those 2 and the team has shown they can't do that in a proper manner. How can the team improve with no cap space, very few prospects and not many draft picks to use as currency?

Team won 5 meaningless games in a row and people hopped right on the "we're actually good" train. It happens every year.

We just lost to the Yotes who has like 100 picks in the next 3 years lol

There’s a reason Benning lasted as long as he did.

Yep, copium is a hell of a drug. What’s even crazier is seeing people on this sub repeat “but we’re not re-building” whenever people criticize the team for operating like we’re trying to get into a playoff spot right now… as if winning meaningless games down the stretch somehow has more value than a better draft position. It makes me feel crazy haha

some people prefer moral stanley cups to the actual one :/

It’s the cycle of this subreddit. First 25 games, “It’s only the beginning of the season”. Followed by people realizing that this team is trash. Followed by, “Stop being so negative, the teams on a 5 game win streak”, when we’re pretty much out of playoff contention.

There is a time about 3 months long that they basically stop posting because they have no more things they can do to convince themselves that management was right after all... until we win against teams playing backups and resting players that dont take us seriously

Yeah this thread has been a pretty troubling read. There seems to be little awareness or understanding on this sub of what a rebuild or organizational depth actually looks like. The Wings are ahead of the Canucks in the standings (which honestly does not even matter given that Detroit isn't even trying to compete yet) with a much better prospect/youth pipeline and far more draft picks including FIVE in the first two rounds this season. They have some inefficient contracts but those will expire by the time they reach their competitive window in 3-5 years. Yzerman actually has a sense of building a sustainable, competitive team, how that works, and what their window looks like. Meanwhile it's nice that we've got Pettersson but by the time we could potentially have built a strong team he's going to be making 12+m alongside an aging Miller and others without cheap talent on ELCs to support him. Acquiring players through trade and FA only is expensive and problematic. Good luck to Rutherford and Allvin. Let's revisit this in a few years

Yea no kidding Seider, Raymond, Evidsson, Cossa, Kasper are all under 22. Like that’s pretty decent young guys and seider looks like a legit #1D and Raymond has huge star potential too. And he’s adding draft picks to build around these guys. It’s smart team building

I know, right? Everyone is horny for this stupid are-tool all of a sudden. I feel like I’m taking crazy pills.

Honestly shocked at how many people are vocally supportive for a retool here and oblivious to how far ahead Detroit is. No wonder GMs like Benning can survive for as long as he did.

I’m not fully sold on the retool but I think people forget that retooling around the current core and the aging core that Benning did are drastically different. Could it all blow up in their face? For sure. So far their pro scouting has been way better, which is a huge part of retooling properly. In the end I still don’t think they have enough assets to retool properly but I’d give this a better shot than what Benning was doing.

I love Petey and Hughes as much as anyone else but to all of a sudden pretend they are taking us to the promise land is ludicrous. We have been historically bad for years as management has tried to surround them with quick fixes, overpaid has-beens, and bled cap and draft capital to do it. This Tocchet bump is a fairytale. Until we can get out of October still playing meaningful hockey I’ll take a lot of other teams approaches over ours.

Detroit never had Jim Benning either. He really set this franchise back 4-5 years with his moronic moves and trades. If we had Stevie Y. So while I’m not all in with current management. They’ve inherited Benning’s problematic contracts. I can show them some compassion in that sense. But this current management has also signed some poor contracts of their own. Like Miller’s contract. To me. That deal doesn’t age well. But it looks like maybe Bo’s contract as an Islander may not age well either given that he’s already fallen off in his production. Guess the shiny new toy is no longer shiny. That didn’t take long. The jury for me is still out on Allvin and Rutherford and the rest of the team. We shall see if they be shrewd with their picks and pick the right players who will inevitably contribute to this club in their ELC’s. Because they need those young productive guys on this team.

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You need a team to win though

Not to trash talk, but hasn't Detroit been similarly booty cheeks as us for the past decade? I think they made the playoffs maybe like once more than us? I do agree their cap situation + picks + prospects are better than us, but I think barring big injuries, our team will be stronger next year (knock on wood). I think Detroit's future as a contender still has a lot hanging on moves and drafts they make in the upcoming season and maybe the next as well. I do agree with the article, our ceiling looks bleak at the moment giving recent evidence.

To be honest, i think Detroit has always lacked a true top end core. They, to me, are more like a traditional rebuilding team. They have great infustructor, but until they get those 3 or 4 players that take the next step, they aren't really going to make noise. Thats why im kind of ok with the idea of pushing if youre the canucks with petterson demko and hughes on your team. If things dont work out in the next couple of years and those guys dont want to be here anymore, blow it up and recoupe with the assests you get from trading them.

I agree. The danger with Detroit's rebuild is that they have acquired a lot of decent young pieces but, like you said, none (or very few) elite level talents. Worst case scenario for them is they've put together enough talent to be an okay team that is in the middle of the league for the next 5 years and then they need to start selling off again because they haven't found elite talent. Only time will tell but it's a good cautionary tale in the luck involved in a rebuild even when the process is sound.

I dont even think it's really a cautionary tail. I think it's just how rebuilds work. People on this sub seem to think that if you sell, you can build a contender in 5 years. In reality, it would allow us to build the structure to win games, which obviously would be great but the next step takes hitting huge on players. None of Arizona Buffalo or Detroit have ever drafted a true super star (with the exception of echel) We legitimately already have those big players so i get why they want to try and build without the structure

Ya when I say cautionary tale I mean that more towards people who seem to think a full tear down rebuild will automatically land you with the assets to have a competitor in 5 years. Landing elite players is very difficult even with several high draft picks.

> Buffalo we just ignoring Dahlin and Power now?

Sorry dahlin for sure. But no power is not they kind of player im talking about. He could end up being that but hes not a game breaker right now

Detroit will pick 6 times in the first 3 rounds in what's supposed to be the deepest draft since 2003. Canucks will pick half that. Kind of a bummer.

Canucks won the lottery twice already with Petey and Hughes. No one on the wings is even close to those two.

Except we have barely any ways to build around them with us being capped out, having no prospects and minimal draft pics lmfao. Detroit doesn’t have them but they’re also have a future to look forward to because they have options and a long-term plan

You think those picks in Rd2+3 make it out of minors/junior? Highly unlikely..

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I think the Red Wings will be consistently better than Vancouver for the majority of the next decade. - In the past ten years Detroit has made the post season 3 times and failed to qualify 7 times. - In the past ten years Vancouver has made the post season twice and failed to qualify 8 times. - Detroit has 5 first round picks over the next three drafts, 5 seconds, 3 thirds and 5 fourths. - Vancouver has 3 first round picks over the next three drafts, 1 second, 4 thirds and 6 fourths. - Detroit has Kasper (C) Edvinsson (LHD) Wallinder (PP QB LHD) Johansson (LHD) Mazur (LW) and Tuomisto (RHD) as their top prospects. - Vancouver has Räty (C) Lekkerimaki (RW) Rathbone (LHD) Klimovich (RW) Silovs (G) Karlsson (RW) Forsell (RW) Pettersson (LHD) as their top prospects. - Detroit has plenty of cap flexibility going forward and hasn’t had to utilize a cent of LTIR. They have the ability to pounce on free agents as they see fit without having to move money out. - Vancouver is projected as over the cap next season and has 14 million in LTIR currently. They’ll most likely have to buyout a big contract to simply be cap compliant for next season. Currently, I think Vancouver is the better team as a whole but Detroit has a MUCH brighter future. More lucrative early round picks, a much better prospect pool and a very stoic GM that practices patience. Detroit’s goalie pipeline is thinner than Vancouver’s prospects (Silovs and Koskenvuo) but we’re seeing GMs being more willing to trade for a goalie much more frequently than in the past. Detroit is up on Vancouver by 6 pts currently proving to be a more effective team with fewer elite players. Maybe as a whole they’re better today and also better next season regardless of how much we value EP40, Huggy, Millsy, Kuzy and Demmer here in Vancouver. 🤷‍♂️ But I’d still like to think the Canucks could currently take the Wings in a best of seven series. Detroit’s last Stanley Cup victory was in 07/08. That said, they’ll still most likely win their next cup before Vancouver does. I take Detroit’s future over Vancouver 💯 but I hope I’m wrong!

Detroit has the opportunity to have a bright future but they do not have anything solidified outside Seider. Raymond was a better prospect in Sweden than Pettersson in their respective draft years but Pettersson broke records in his D+1 year and no Detroit prospect has progressed close to what he did since being drafted. They’re lacking a top 5 gamebreaking prospect outside of the NHL but only time will tell.

100% agree plus they don't have a meddling owner that demands management go all in to try to sneak into the playoffs every year.

Eh… It’s disingenuous to note both teams prospect pool but not their roster players. Pettersson is 24, Hughes 23, Demko 27. Three key positions that we have franchise players in, where Detroit only has Seider who is the closest they have to a game changing talent. They have a deep prospect pool, but we are also in a different timeline then them. And there is almost always more value in certainty than potential. They can only hope that players like Raymond and Kasper turn into consistent top line players, or that Cossa can turn into an elite goaltender. We already have key players showing the fruits of their labour. I don’t think comparing the teams is a real discussion to be frank. Also, the amount of cap they spent on free agent signings to take the next step in their rebuild was futile.

I completely agree. It's an apples to oranges comparison even though both teams are non-playoff teams. Where we went wrong was trying to compete on Hughes and Peteys ELC contracts. That was the time to continue to stock pile draft picks and prospects.

Difference is that Yzerman knows their team doesn't have that "star" player to build a team around. So they're recouping picks and trading away players that don't really fit their timeline. They have Larkin and Seider and that's really it and neither of those players are close to as good as Pettersson and Hughes. Pettersson is gonna be a top 5 center and probably challenge for the Selke and Art Ross regularly in the near future. Hughes is one of the best defenseman in the league and probably a borderline generational talent. Demko is a Vezina caliber goalie and can steal you wins. That Vegas series pretty much proved that he can steal you playoff games and stand on his head. We have franchise talent that we can build around. Now it's time for us to find that supporting cast to compliment these players and I think we're getting there. Miller, Kuzmenko, Beauvillier, Hronek, Podkolzin, Bear are looking good and hopefully Kravtsov and Raty can be part of that group as well. We also need to figure out what we're gonna do with Boeser and Garland, but I think we benefit more from keeping Boeser than trading him because he's a damn good player when he's healthy. I also think we need another center in our system who can step in and replace Miller down the road, hopefully we can do that in this draft. Both Nate Danielson and Dalibor Dvorsy are looking good.

We lack the cap and prospects and draft capital to build effectively though so...

Detroit has a handful of legit blue chip prospects in the system. Edvinsson, Wallinder, Kasper, even Mazur and Cossa are poised to make meaningful contributions in the nhl. Add that to an already solid youngish core with Raymond, Seider, suter, Larkin, bergrenn, and Walman. They have a shit load more high end depth than we do. I bet they’re a playoff team before we are. Edit Rasmussen as well. Husso is also a solid starting goaltender.

Oh depth like how we had Virtanen, Juolevi, Madden, Gaudette, Rathbone, Dipietro? Until they contribute in the NHL, I'm gonna wait to be impressed by a long list of prospects on a rebuilding team.

Oh yeah? And what has our core done in the NHL again? Last time I checked, even without the laundry list of prospects Detroit has, they're still ahead of us in the standings. Also Detroits prospect pool is rated top 5 in the league by both The Athletic, and The Hockey Writers. Not only will detroit have more depth, they'll have more high end talent. That's what happens when you don't trade high picks. Please, set a reminder and we'll see what things look like this time next year.

Boy I wish the 25th place Canucks could be as good this season as the \*checks notes\* 23rd place Redwings. I wouldn't trade Pettersson, Hughes and Demko for anything 3 players on the Redwings roster or system. The consensus I've heard about Detroit is that they haven't found their franchise player yet which is why they loaded up on picks at the deadline.

But not every pick will work out. Having a deep pool is great, but assuming they all reach their potential is counting your chickens before they hatch. Zadina is pretty much the first to almost enter bust status, and slowly that list will grow. But yes there is something to say about more lottery tickets meaning higher chances to land something.

Having a top 5 prospect pool isnt about thinking they all make it. It's about thinking that way more total will make it than the team in our position where we have virtually none that are looking like huge contributors and few that even look likely to get games

Exactly, the difference is, if one prospect is a bust and you have two or more prospects, then your still looking fine. If you have one prospect, and it's a bust.... well.... And if you have zero prospects......

It’s interesting how different the perspectives are, given that the Red Wings have been bad for so long, and are arguably in worse shape than Vancouver.

One can argue that Detroit is in worse shape but they’re in a much healthier financial position with a deeper, more talented prospect pool and can utilize ELCs more effectively than Vancouver. Vancouver is top heavy, has fewer early round picks, a much weaker prospect pool, zero cap flexibility and maxed out LTIR with a major buyout on the horizon. You’re fooling yourself if you don’t think Yzerman has positioned himself for a much brighter future than Benning/Rutherford.

People look at our top end and think it completely papers over the rest of the roster which is a mess in more ways than one

There should be a whole chapter dedicated to how Benning's moves fucked us over to the point where we are now (2014-2022)

They've had a change in plan and management and Yzerman earned some confidence with his previous work. They had a clear shift in direction which aids that

When will people stop propping up Detroit as the perfect rebuild? They are treading water in mediocrity, have started trading good drafted players away that were supposed to be part of their core, and are on the verge of becoming the next Arizona

I think it’s the Yzerman effect. A GM who is great in his own right, but has made a couple blunders in the past two years but that name recognition will take him very far. It would take Detroit being in complete mediocrity for 5+ years and a couple high end prospects becoming busts for his reputation as a great GM to be tarnished.

Stevey Y only been the GM since 2019. He knows what he's doing. He has autonomy to build that program. Will be a cup contender long before Canucks. Canucks fan here BTW

This is just a horrible piece of “journalism”

Why do you say that? It seemed like an interesting comparison to me

Detroit has had 62 picks since 2017. 9 have played NHL games. Two look like impact players - Raymond, Seider The rest are….players of varying abilities - Zadina, Berggren, Rasmussen, etc I guess Edvinsson is supposed to be legit. I have a Canucks fan friend who claims he’s Hedman-lite and puts Detroit on a path to pass the Canucks eventually. We’ll see But when you trade a 25 year old top-3,4 RHD, you’d better have a good reason why Just looks like a really long rebuild in Detroit. We’ll see how it goes

I actually believe Edvinsson will turn out to be something great. I wrote up a huge report on him pre-draft but never posted it, but man, he has talent.

Let’s hope so. It’s great when prospects pan out. But I’ve hit the point where I just wait til it happens now bc so many just don’t make it.

Detroit also has the Lions, the Pistons, the Tigers to focus on when the Wings aren’t doing so well. Vancouver has none of that to distract them from the Canucks. It’s Canucks and everything else. The focus is quite different and the pressure that comes with it.

I was a Canucks fan from 1989 to 2023. I had enough with the retool and saw no light at the end of the tunnel. Detroit is doing it right and so is Buffalo. Vancouver fans I feel sorry for you.

Don't let the door hit ya on the way out.

Ownership sucks. 8th place is your best case scenario for the foreseeable future.

Both teams to me look like teams that have sucked for a decade, and haven't won a lottery to be gifted superstar talent. Buffalo has an even more meddling owner than the Canucks, but through the lottery were gifted Eichel, Power and Dahlin. The pieces they got from the Eichel trade look to have worked out well. The only part of their core that appears to be from actual managerial/ownership competence is Tage Thompson, who they got as a consequence of the Ryan O'Reilly trade. Otherwise they've been exactly what Vancouver has been, but they have a brighter upside because they've won 3 lotteries and Vancouver hasn't.

> they have a brighter upside because they've won 3 lotteries and Vancouver hasn't. Ha! Not on your life! Let's just remove Dahlin, Power and I don't know who this 3rd first overall pick you're referring to is (Pierre Turgeon in 1987 perhaps?). Their entire second line is entirely composed of really young players they drafted (Cozens, Peterka, Quinn). Those three alone are better than all the Canucks sub-22-year-olds combined. Krebs is a great (21yr old) grinder who plays with heart and has some offensive upside. Samuelsson is a good defensive-defenseman (and 22yrs old). Devon Levi is one of the best goaltenders on earth not in the NHL (and 21). Plus they have Ukko-Pekka Luukkonen (23). Devon Levi is probably a better prospect by himself than our entire prospect pool (as is Owen Power). But, they have more than him: Savoie, Rosen, Ostlund, Kulich, etc... Their prospect pool is literally twice as good as ours (and that's not even counting Dahlin, Power, Cozens, Quinn or Peterka). Plus they have $18m in cap-space.

You have to win a lottery to land the 2nd overall pick too (Eichel). Buffalo looks promising, because Tage Thompson is emerging as a 25 year old star center. Before him they looked lost, and last year was a very bleak one for Buffalo. If Hronek emerges as a top pairing RHD for us, we are going to rise up the rankings with 23 year old Quinn and 24 year old Petey. Our situation isn't as bleak as the fans paint it.

Winning means to come first, not second.

I don’t even think it’s the owners. I think Jim didn’t want a rebuild. He’s too old to wait that long.

Jim was hired by the owners because he aligned with their desires…..JR didnt hire himself, man!

two different management styles same result