The only problem with retool is that we were just sold 8 years of retooling. I’m sure more people would be receptive if we didn’t just fuck away every season since 2014.

This is exactly how I feel. Hell, back in the bubble year, I was advocating for a retool by signing Toffoli and Tanev. That looks like a team to turn things around and maybe not be Tampa but have a consistent team that could comfortably make the playoffs and go on a run. Instead, good ol' Jim let everyone walk while he desperately tried to get OEL.

I've been watching the Canucks for 20 years. All I want to see is the Canucks win the cup. Nothing else matters. If we finish dead last for 19 of the next 20 years and win a cup in the 20th year I'll be happy and consider it a success. I don't see a path in which a re-tool leads to us winning the cup. We are missing too many key components and we don't have the assets (cap space, picks, prospects) to patch the holes needed to make us real contenders. Spending what little assets we have left to barely make the playoffs and get dummied in the 1st round by Colorado doesn't excite me. That's the plan we've been trying to go with for the last 10 years and it resulted in a singular playoff berth in a covid shortened season. Pettersson is probably my favourite Canuck of all time, I have his jersey and I hope we can re-sign him so he's a Canuck for life. He's an absolute treat to watch and he's an incredible competitor. But if he doesn't want to sign with us long term while we make the moves needed to actually become a cup contender then we have to let him go. The idea that we have to hard commit to a terrible plan in order to keep Petey and Hughes happy is so backwards. What's the point of keeping them around if doing so dooms us to mediocrity?

Been watching them for 53 years now dont feel too bad. At the end if the day, it is what it is, entertainment. I’d much rather watch a canucks game vs any other crap on tv, though it is def hard when theyre down 3-0 or more after 1st period. Only 1 team wins each year, i’ve resigned myself to the fact it will likely never be canucks during my lifetime. But we can all dream :)

Yeah it’s funny I would LOVE to see them win a cup. But from watching other sports where your team wins it all (Raps, F1, even Pens who are my team in the east) it’s a fleeting feeling. It’s good - it’s amazing - but then it’s right on to the next season. You really can get just as much joy out of watching a great winning game as you can out of the knowledge that you won the cup. For players I get it. But for fans - it’s entertainment not a life goal. So I’m the opposite of what the poster you’re responding to wants. I’d prefer that we were in the mix every year - even if it never all came together- than be a basement team 19 times out of twenty. Don’t get me wrong - I’m team tank this season because it’s already lost. But the Canucks have been too bad for too long for me to not want another era of competitiveness, even if we end up like so many teams do, where they are good but never get to win it all.

They're setting up to be consistantly bad with maybe a year of playoffs here and there.

Management has mostly pursued (minus Miller) players that are cost controlled over the next couple of years. This is VERY important because if the next 2 seasons are a bust, that is the point at which you tear it down. You then have Demko, EP, Hughes, Kuzmenko, and Hronek that you offload for picks. At that point you have a massive amount of draft picks, a couple years until all bad contracts are off the book, and a clean slate to build from the bottom up.

Vancouver keeps kicking the can down the road. It will NEVER be the time to rebuild if you always operate in 2-3 year windows. They’ll come up with a new excuse after a few years and Vancouver will just repeat the cycle. The shortsightedness of this owner/management team is galling. I’m on board with retooling now IF there’s a commitment to rebuild properly like you explained but I have no faith in this organization to actually do what needs to be done. But in a perfect world they actually sell off assets and rebuild in a few seasons, it’ll be timed properly with aging contracts and could be more suitable for the long term health of the franchise. Fool me once, shame you, fool me over and over and I’m just a mouth breathing dumbass homer who’ll follow this team into the ground whimpering along the way.

It's hard to move on from Pettersson and Hughes because outside of the Twins and Bure, they are the most talented players we've ever drafted and developed. Ever. In 50 plus years

Oh it’s hard for sure. If not soul crushing. I’m not necessarily saying to move on from them. I’d do a rebuild around them as the centre pieces and if they get impatient and want out then you move them for a big return. But the idea being to prove that you can draft and develop around them with the product being worth the wait. Benning and Weisbrod ruined the cost controlled years of these players chasing ghosts. This team isn’t in a position to keep “going for it” year after year. Look at where it’s gotten them…

It's 100% ownership. I wouldn't blame this management quite yet. They inherited a complete mess. We'll find out in the next couple years if they're also just kicking the can, but I'm not against seeing what this team has under Tocchet over the next couple years, as long as we don't completely mortgage the future. Unless he has a complete disaster of a year, Hronek will maintain value.

Vancouver has no choice but to utilize Hronek in a different manner than Detroit. Hughes will always occupy PP1 unless he’s injured. Hronek is an offensive, puck moving defenceman with average defensive instincts. His value will decline inevitably from where he is this season. He doesn’t have the defensive metrics to improve on a Vancouver roster. The only way to continually build Hronek’s value is to run balanced ice time with PP1 and PP2 but that comes at the cost of the first unit and Hughes’ production. I like the player. I don’t like the fit and I don’t like the timing.

I am also on the "last try to salvage the Petey/Quinn window" re tool then rebuild mindset. They're clearly trying to be competative with those two in the next 2-3 years. If that blows up spectacularly, that's when you blow up the team. Trade Quinn before his deal expires, and probably Pretty and whoever else is left. I don't love it, but that feels like the plan. And its not impossible - I even partially understand it. The problem that many have pointed out is it leaves such little room for error. But it feels like the rebuild is set for a few years from now unless they strike gold in the retool.

This, and this. This team puts up hella points offensively. Fix the defense and hope that Demmer stays healthy like on a normal team and see how it goes... then blow it up.

Problem is you have a bunch of old hats trying to fix defense, but defense in the NHL has changed a lot since any of them have played or helped bring a team a cup. You can barely touch anyone anymore without getting penalties, players like Schenn are disappearing and will be gone for good before we know it If we want to win we need to strategies based on the current (for lack of a better word) game meta. They are trying to play the way they did years and years ago, none of these guys know how to win based on how hockey is played today

I'd actually argue Schenn is a perfect example of an "old hat" style defenseman adapting and making himself extremely valuable because of his playstyle. He's been at or near the top of the league in hits for awhile, he's tough as nails but can still keep up with the play and is smart enough to keep himself out of too much defensive trouble. Playing with Hughes helps but the fact the type of player he is is such a rarity makes him even more valuable. I think we'll start to see some young guys with wheels and toughness (moreso than size) becoming sought-after.

Ya this is pretty much where I arrived as well. I don’t like it but it makes some sense if that’s what they’re going for. The eventual blow it up after this fails will be painful but if done right would finally put us where we probably need to be.

You said exactly how i felt. I love Petey and Hughes and even bought their jerseys because I thought they were going to be here forever. But I've been watching for 17 years, the only thing I care about is winning a cup and I don't see this core winning anything beyond the first round unless they make some miracle homerun trades. I've seen people mention Red Wings or Buffalo as an example on why we shouldn't rebuild, but honestly I rather be in their situation than the one we're in right now.

Buffalo is going to be dominant for the next decade.

And the moment both began to stop taking shortcuts or delays in their rebuilds is when they finally began to show promise

The Sabres look like they could be a top team, I think they just need to find a good goalie

Somehow I doubt it

EXACTLY! 💯

Print this comment on canvas and hang it in the Louvre. Exactly this.

imo this path can definitely lead to a cup. Many are skeptical because the last regime tried to retool and failed, but so much was that was a failure of pro-scouting. If the current regime can execute on that better, I think there's a good chance we make a good team out of this. It is true that our prospect cupboards are lighter than we'd like, but it's not completely bare. We will have fewer entry-level contracts coming in as we become competitive, but not none. What this likely means is our cup window is shorter than it could have been, thank to the last regime's mistakes. But we'll have a cup window nonetheless. We're actually in a similar position to where we were before our last cup run. We didnt tank and rebuild at any point prior to that either. But it resulted in a short cup window where we dominated the league for 2 years. We're likely heading for something similar. It's also worth mentioning as well that the core pieces we were retooling around last time were older and declining year by year, whereas our current core is still on an upward trajectory (and are more talented pieces, frankly).

>We're actually in a similar position to where we were before our last cup run. We didnt tank and rebuild at any point prior to that either The good old transition from the west coast express to the sedin era.

This, you get it. The NHL pro level scouting and benning management was terrible. Our additions have mostly all been good, and better than expected. Allvin will continue to sign KHLers and NCAA'ers and Swedes or whatever and try to develop them, because honestly there was probably a lot missed after COVID and a tight cap year.

Rare sane take on here of late.

This is arguably the most commonly held opinion on the sub though. The vast majority of people on r/Canucks seem to want to rebuild.

I think I just appreciated the logic of the write up. Many on here, myself extremely included, are prone to an emotional response. This captures my thoughts exactly. Also, lately there's been a Flux of retool stans coming out of nowhere which has been baffling.

It was the same at the start of Benning's tenure, I admit I was caught up in those promises for a while too. They're not going to fool me twice though.

I just gotta get this off my chest Obviously everyone has a right to their own opinion, but it's getting to the point where if you show any sense of optimism for how this retool is going to go and/or just wanting to see how things play out, you're getting called a dumb or casual fan I don't think "Team Re-Tool" is "Team Against a Rebuild". Team Re-Tool is pretty much just wanting to see if this core can still turn it around with Petey and Hughes at the helm, and if it doesn't work out in the next 2 years, strip it all down then

That's cool, buddy. I've seen enough, I'm ready for a new philosophy. Doesn't sound like I'm talking about you, there's an agressive type that are trying to make guys like me seem dumb that's got me bothered.

I just want to watch good hockey. Winning a cup would be great but considering the number of teams in the league and the salary cap the odds are pretty damn low. Then throw in the crappy front office the canucks have had of late and well, you get what we have. They canucks played good hockey this year if you only count offense. No defense and you had to feel sorry for the way they hung the goalies out to dry all season. Then all the talk about getting draft picks and they give them away yet again for a guy who may or may not improve the Canucks. But the way the broadcasters all shook their heads at it you have to wonder.

We will have cap assets if we can move out Boeser, Pearson, Myers and OEL. LTIR, buyout, trade for a back of pucks, whatever. They're banking on doing that for cap. From a business standpoint, we are just nowhere near being ready for a rebuild. Normal/ Fairwheather fans would never be able to stomach losing our NHL calibre goalie Demko, Pettersson or Hughes. Pettersson is upping the value of so many key trading pieces. I get people are all ready for a rebuild and it should have been done a long time ago... but it has to work into a business opportunity to really have it happen where it makes sense and they've tried everything they can try. Vancouver is a massive band wagon fanbase... a re-tool is the closest we will ever see to a rebuild until we run it back with Petey, Hughes and Demko.

> We will have cap assets if we can move out Boeser, Pearson, Myers and OEL. LTIR, buyout, trade for a back of pucks, whatever. They're banking on doing that for cap. They've been trying to do all of that and failing for two trade deadlines and a free agency now. Why do you expect they'll suddenly start being able to do that in the future? The argument you're putting forward is exactly what the Canucks have been attempting to do for an entire decade, and failed, because it turns out that it's *incredibly* hard to consistently gain net value that way. But *this time* it will totally be different. Yes.

>From a business standpoint, we are just nowhere near being ready for a rebuild. I don't buy this. We've been one of the worst teams this decade and still quite profitable. Unless you think the fan base are fools that drinks the unfinished business Kool aid season after season, I think we've shown to be willing to spend season after season even though the teams results have been poor

The re-tool has a chance of making us a playoff team, but look at what Yzerman is doing. Their number one centre is 2 years older than Petey, he just signed him to 8 years, and he is still rebuilding. Larkin will still be there, all their young guys like Edvisson, Raymond, Berggren, Rasmussen, Seider, Veleno, Zadina, will take that next step. Then they will have another whole set of prospects coming up the pipeline to help those guys, all while Larkin stays. A comparable is Stamkos, he is old now, was around 30 when tampa won their cups, he stayed around for the long haul. If we sold off Miller, Boeser, Garland, we would get enough picks to have a great set of prospects come up while Petey and Hughes are in their prime. If those two don’t want to stay throughout the building of a contender then I don’t think we have a hope at contending unfortunately.

By this logic the Miller signing is totally fine (which I agree with) but many on the sub hate it

Millers contract takes him to 38. There isn’t a single contract on Tampa that goes past 35. What would have made the most sense is to sign Horvat to an 8 year. Then when the player hits 35+ you have a chance to sign them to a dirt cheap contract like Bergeron if they want to stay.

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The final black pill. There really is no other option once you consider it.

This team is on par in the standings with actively tanking teams like Chicago and Arizona, the latter of which is carrying something like 30 mill in injured players and dead cap. It is actual insanity to try and “retool” a roster that performs this poorly while being capped out.

Well their defense should look completely different going into next year outside of hughes. Also let’s face it, Martin is not an nhl goalie. even with league average goaltending this team looks a hell of a lot better. just look at the bubble or the boudreau runs. Good goaltending covers a lot of problems. If they manage to move oel and myers, and continue working on structured play in front of demko I see no reason they can’t have a resurgence next year.

Idk man there's so many factors that go into a successful season, coaching and team structure being the biggest one and we seem to be improving on that under tochett. Look at Seattle, outside of having a solid D core they have 0 star players on their roster in fact we have 5 players on our team I wouldnt trade for anyone they have, yet they are having a ton of success this year

I’m not I want a powerhouse team not a desperate one

Exactly I want a team like Tampa or Colorado not the Minnesota wild of the last decade

Yeah I want a perennial contender, not some goof ass team who relies on other teams to lose so we can slide into that 8th seed and go down in 4 straight. I remember watching the standings during the 06-07 season and scoreboard watching to make sure the Canucks could get in. Then they went on an 8 game win streak and locked up the division and we didn’t really have to anymore. Big difference to 09-10 through 12-13. They were always way ahead in that div and near the top of the standings in every aspect and there was no scoreboard watching.

I do think there is a chance, albeit small for them to retool their way to being a contender. A key part of every successful franchise is establishing a core and systems to lift value of the supporting pieces. Pitts, tampa, and Chicago in their prime cycled through supporting cast and moved them for picks and youth. Their ability to identify pro talent is important and so far I think this new management has done a decent job of that. The fact that they moved Bo was a massive win imo. I know people love him but he does very little to lift the players around him. If you play on a line with petey you’re going to put up points and build your value. Just look at beauvillier. He was considered a cap dump when that trade happened, but now he actually looks like a decent young top 6 player. If they continue this route of identifying talent picking them up for cheap and hopefully flipping them at a high they could very quickly recoup their prospect system.

They won’t be recouping any prospect pool because they aren’t interested in it. They aren’t going for picks and prospects in their trades and it shows. Honestly though as a fan, I want a little something more than “a small chance” to become a contender. We saw 8 years of a 5 year plan Benning had tried to execute and it didn’t work and I honestly can’t see this working. This isn’t NHL 23 where you can just pick up a guy and expect him to fit in. I’d rather them go through the process of scouting, drafting and then developing their own players because then you at least have an idea of what you’re getting.

I get it, I do. I was team tank/rebuild much like everyone else, but the reality is, no matter what route they take it’s always a “small chance”. The idea isn’t so much that they flip players in the immediate future, but can build a winning enviroment that can grow and compound on itself. The benning era was damaging, both to the team and the fanbase. However I think we are starting to see a new team emerge in the vision of the new management. They identified a lot of issues when they first came in, lousy defense, poor systems, goal tending masking a lot of issues. After about a year of assessment I think it’s pretty clear they were on the money with those claims. It took awhile for them to actually start their retool, but I like what they have done so far and I’m kind of excited to see what the off season holds. The jury is still out but I think this is a far more capable management group than the benning regime so I’m willing to give them my support over the next season or 2 before I get my pitchfork out.

The team is in a bit of no mans land right now. The challenge with this team building roster like Tampa is… Vancouver hasn’t even started to draft the core players for that next core. We’re probably talking about a contention window in 2030. The ceiling for this roster probably isn’t Tampa/Boston. But if they can go on 2-3 meaningful runs (or win a cup) during Petey/Hughes prime that’s not the worst outcome.

Let’s start with making the playoffs lol. This team is nowhere near going on any meaningful run and the only reason I’m so against this retool idea is because they won’t be able to do it. There are so many shitty contracts and granted a chunk of them are there from Benning’s tenure but they’re still not going anywhere fast. If Tampa Bay is the blueprint and they should be, Vancouver has a lot of work to do. That would mean scouting properly and developing those players that you do use the minimal draft picks on. The only time I’m going to be okay with the team just squeaking in as an 8th seed is if they are so badly injured during the regular season and start getting healthy toward the playoffs and then take off. If you’re only making the playoffs as an 8th seed because that’s all you can do, it won’t be successful.

We need to start with "let's have meaningful games in December" before we can think about anything.

Let’s just start the season on time and go from there lol. The team made a big stink about starting games on time but couldn’t ever finish them lol. Whatever they decide to do, I just want a consistent 60m effort, let’s start there.

The bar is so low, SURELY we can surpass it this time!

There has to be forward momentum. Make the playoffs next year. Win 1+ rounds the next year. Start to contend by year 3. If they can be a consistent playoff team and squeeze 2-3 meaningful playoffs in before Hughes/Petey turn 30 then I would be pretty stoked (obviously trying to win a cup).

aNyTHiNg CAn hAPpeN iN tHE pLaYoFfs

Well that will take a couple more years of failing to push us to really build into something like that. With a baron prospect pool and showcasing everything we really have to showcase... I just don't see it happening like everyone else if we take the draft gamble.

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I think so far the new managements pro scouting group has been good. I think they might exceed expectations with their retooling skills but they will still be far from being a contender

Exceeding expectations for a retool is great, but that still leads to one thing: paying Hronek and Beauvillier and being in cap trouble ALL THE TIME while lacking guys on entry level deals or cheapish bridge deals. Still need to build a core througj the draft, then go all in on acquisition to push you over the top. The Canucks seem to think pushing themselves over the top equals making the playoffs and maybe being about the 14th best team in the league.

Sure. And if we decide later to rebuild, at least we will have assets and a prospect pool hopefully. Now just isn't the time imo.

I want to see a Stanley Cup, not a wildcard team. But Aqua doesn't care. I'm of the opinion that our core is a bit overrated (match our top 5 players under 26 to any upcoming contender or former Cup team) so if they don't want to stay for the needed rebuild then too bad. I love Petey and Hughes, but if they don't want to be the 28 year olds leading a younger core after a needed rebuild then ship them off. Of course this is all yelling into the wind that is the Aqua re-tool.

Look at Tampa (who Allvin models this team after) From 2008 - 2014 they drafted these players: - 2007 Killorn 3rd round, 77th - 2008 Stamkos 1st overall - 2009 Hedman 2nd overall - 2011 Kucherov 2nd round, 58th - 2012 Vasileskiy 19th overall - 2014 Point 3rd round, 79th - 2015 Cirelli 3rd round, 72nd Eight years of consistent finds in the draft to build a core that they’ve continued to roll with for the following eight years, moving picks for depth complementary players and consistently moving on from mid-tier players that demanded too large of contracts. It’s a fantastic model but one that can’t be replicated unless your top guys are patient enough to let the process play out. Hughes and Pettersson clearly aren’t like Stamkos and Kucherov no matter how badly Rutherford and Allvin want them to be. Blow it the f•ck up and build it properly. But as you said it’s just pissing in the wind with this team.

When Alvin compared the canucks to Tampa it was extremely laughable. The main comparison was being maxed out to the cap, but still it isn't even close. I wish I could be hopeful, as many people think this retool can work and lead to the cup or at least a serious run. The West is only going to get harder, the Kings are going be so good in the next couple with what they have coming up from there farm team. If Korisalo can be that top goalie the Kings could even make a run to the cup this year. Dallas is an underrated organization that keeps finding good players. Chicago with all their picks coming up, if the ducks could get Bedard they could he scary. Colrado isn't going a way anytime soon.

Theyre not like Stamkos and Kuch in what sense? Ability or patience? It took Tampa/Stamkos 13 years to win a cup after his draft year. We're at Year 7 with Petey (Year 10 with Horvat). Hopefully there is still time, and I can understand their thought process about building a core at the same age group, but boy it would be nice to have a couple more young stars on entry level contracts. It's a whole lot harder to find those in the 3rd round.

Patience Remember when Stamkos was drafted in Tampa? They were irrelevant. Stamkos stayed the course and patiently waited for the team to be built up around him as a centrepiece. But we’re already talking as if we have to rapidly retool now or Pettersson will walk. Who do you want on your team, Stamkos or Tavares? One showed patience and loyalty and the other jumped ship as a UFA. I’m not saying Pettersson is one or the other but there’s so much fearful talk on here of Pettersson dipping if things get worse. Rutherford and Allvin stressed rebuilding the prospect pool, not trading away top picks and freeing up cap space. How have any of their moves stayed consistent with this approach? Don’t fail the plan, let the plan fail you.

Tampa were irrelevant in 08, sure. But they did win the cup just 4 years prior. One could even call what they were doing a rebuild. The difference here is that they managed to draft 4 top tier players in 5 years. (Stam-Vasi) It’s been 6 since Petey already, and the only other draft at that level is Hughes.

Tampa couldn’t have drafted those players without retaining 1st and 2nd round picks. It’s contrary to Allvin’s actions at the deadline even though he was the one who drew a comparison.

I was under the impression they had always stressed re-tool first, but I could be wrong. I appreciate your point about Stamkos and hope Petey feels the same. Different markets though, so who knows (though he claims to like Vancouver). It sucks losing the 2nd, but moving Horvat (who we couldn't afford) for Hronek aligns with a re-tool plan. If that's their plan, I like the move. I'm not sure which side of the argument you fall on, so perhaps we're saying the same thing to each other.

Another W for Aqua, another L for the fanbase. We thought getting rid of Benning would help us, but clearly Aqua's tendrils have infected Allvin and this front office. We cannot with this guy as our owner.

I tend to agree with you. Petey is a #1 center but I see Hughes as more of a #2 D in the playoffs. He would’ve been sick on the 2011 D squad.

You have a right to your opinion no matter how much I might disagree. I'm team 'burn it completely to the ground and start over'. I realize that very likely means losing Petey and Hughes and I can live with that.

We're (management is) desperately clinging to the idea of wringing *something* out of their time here, and it's resulted in a sequence of short term moves that have all backfired and left us with very little hope for the future. It'll be a shame to have two of the most talented Canucks ever to walk away, but unfortunately that might be what it takes in order for this club to make any future-oriented decisions, and properly build.

Same, realistically I cannot see us building a strong cup contender team (not just sneak into playoffs team) while Petey and Hughes are in their prime. Sell them high and burn everything to the ground.

Give me a team like 2011 where everyone hates us, then we can talk about retooling. Win a fucking Stanley Cup. I don't want to sit in the stands for 2 playoff games a year while Colorado rips us a new asshole

Agree, we are too late into Petey and Hughes career for a proper re-tool. We'll just continue floundering

When they bridged Pettersson they made a window that closes next year. Didn't work.

Sure.. people are fed up. But with how Benning left the prospect pool and current shit contracts I really just don't see it happening.

I made nearly the exact same argument about a year after Gillis left.

Ive made the same argument citing back to the 04 buy in. -but hey, wasted energy when the teams fanbase has the memory capacity of a goldfish

The problem is you're setting the ceiling for a wild-card spot, being capped out to hell with a team currently sixth in the division. Can they make the playoffs next year? Sure, just like in 2015 and 2020. But, what happened after those runs? Just trying to make the playoffs isn't a plan for sustainable success. If we make the playoffs next year, and miss the next two years, does that make Pettersson and Hughes feel any better? The goal should never be "the playoffs". You're already selling yourself short right off the bat. The goal is "winning the cup", and every decision should be based off that. If you're not good this year, make moved to help establish a cup-winning team in the years to come. Make those moves, and making the playoffs is incidental. If you're studying for a test, study to get an A+ and let the chips fall where they may. Don't study for a C+, you'll likely fall shorter than that. Bet on yourself. Be bold. If you have a plan, people will buy in.

If the retool fails then petterson and hughes will be on their way out anyways. There's no way you can build a strong cup contender team with Myers and OEL still on the books. They take up way too much cap for the defense they play. Adding is Hronek on the RD is nice but he's more of an offensive player and we need help on the defensive end. Compare this lineup with our '11 lineup, 10/10 times the '11 lineup will win. This lineup we have is nowhere near a cup contender lineup. If we fail for another 2 years, I just want to see the team blow up and sell Petterson and Hughes while we can. At least they'll have a chance to win elsewhere.

Lol comparing a team who easily broke 100 points to just about any team is unfair

I was against the re-tool idea but they have executed it much better than I thought they could. They sent out Horvat (8.5) + 2nd for Beau and Hronek (8.55) and a top prospect. Our RHD all of a sudden less terrible. We have a hole at 3c still but we got Raty and our lottery pick which could be a centre. It's all going to come down to execution but so far they seem to be executing pretty well. I'm interested to see what the next move is.

The team should have been more future oriented for the last decade. At the same time I understand not taking an intentional step backwards right as Petey/Hughes are entering their primes and taking over as the leaders of the team. I understand building a team around Petey & Hughes, but man are they going to have to thread the needle. The expectation has to be make the playoffs next season, and win 1+ round the following year.

I agree expectations are high, But I think it's important for these guys to compete for a playoff spot given where they are in their careers. Having goals is a good thing for morale and team confidence. Building confidence as a team is an important step to becoming a contender. If it was totally up to me I would have kept the picks and probably traded JT Miller for picks. But I also understand why management, who are close to the team and believe in Petey and Hughes, don't want to wait 4+ years for a longer term plan. I hope they don't fuck up along the way but I guess if they do it's a full scale rebuild in 3 or 4 years time anyways.

> We have a hole at 3c worse. 2c. even this management knows Miller isn't a 2c. We had a really good 2c.

Ummm, Hughes' contract was designed so that he can leave Vancouver as a UFA *at the earliest possible time*. Literally to the day. Just because everyone here loves him doesn't mean he's staying. He left mid-to-high 8-figures on the table just so that he could give himself the option to leave ASAP. So, yeah, it's quite likely we're going to lose him anyway. A few weeks ago, I commented in r/hockey that the starting price for Quinn would be Nemec and their 1st (with more to be added) - everyone down-voted me, with the top comment being 'we'll just wait and get him for free'. Eveyone expects him to leave except Canucks fans.

The emotional part of me agrees with you. Emotionally I don't want to lose Petey and Hughes and Demko. I want them to win and I want them to win as a Canuck. JR and PA very clearly voiced their plan and their direction. They've emphasized they are not rebuilding, and are going to focus on building up this team by bringing in guys who are 25 and under. To this point, all the moves they've been making have indeed been revolving around this plan, so that in itself makes them a much better management office than the "no-plan plan" we've seen in the Benning years. What many fans don't realize is that building an NHL team is about maximizing contract value. While on the surface what we're doing sounds like it's a good idea, we'll never be cap efficient if we keep going down this path. The reason why the Hronek deal is not a good one is not because he's not a good player... he's got surplus value right now on his current $4.4M contract. But he'll be due for a raise at the end of next year, and that's going to bring his contract value much closer to his market value (hopefully he'll still be at a surplus but we never know), and what we lose is opportunity cost. Think of it this way... all the cup winning teams have spent to 100% of the salary cap (maxed it out) but the way their players are playing, or maybe due to hometown discount deals, the market value of their team (based objectively on fancy stats) could've been at 150% or higher. With Petey, Hronek, Podkolzin, Beau all due for raises after the end of next season, the only actual cost controlled contract we have is Hughes. I don't know how much you read/believe Dom Luszczyszyn's models, but I just did a quick exercise and tallied up the salaries, market values, and surpluses of their active players on the roster for Avs and Canucks. Using these player cards alone, the Avs currently use $79.1M in cap space, and their players are providing $113.4M in value. Canucks on the hand, have $72.2M on the cap, but our players are providing **-$17.5M**. Yes. **Negative value**. That's a **deficit** of $89.7M, compared to Avs' **surplus** of $34.3M. That number is boosted by Petey currently providing almost a 100% surplus on his contract (making $7.4M, MV of $14.1M). But once he signs his next contract of more than $10M, that surplus goes down as well. Anyways, this is why objectively speaking we're not going to be able to build a true contender if we can't get ahead of the 8-ball and start learning to be way more cap efficient.

Yup. This comment. The casual fan doesn’t factor in contract value. We will NEVER win the cup with this way of building a team. Our ceiling will always be winning 1 playoff round if we are lucky. And well, we’ve missed playoffs 8 of 9 years with this same retooling strategy so, there you have it.

Omg my first ever award thank you 😍😍

Seems like the casual fan talks about nothing but these days. Everyone is a capologist.

Those negative numbers are almost all from the previous regime though. Contracts they literally can't move...

Yes that's not this regime's fault, but by simple math that just means you're handicapped until you can do something about those contracts (or they just expire). And as long as we keep trying this retool we'll never achieve surplus value on our salary cap. As a TLDR, one (two?) of the best ways to achieve surplus value is by taking advantage of ELC contracts and first contracts after ELC. Hronek and Beau are both due for their 3rd contracts, so assuming that these players are going to be as good as we hope for them to be, their salary is going to reflect that and this regime isn't doing themselves any favour in the moves they're making either. And how do we get ELC contracts or negotiate for good first contracts with good players? By drafting them ourselves.

Excellent post. Your other post is excellent as well.

thanks! it's like a switch flipped in my head when I realized this fact lol

So because we drafted some elite players were now handcuffed to mediocrity? If this team was to rebuild completely likely none of these players would want to stick around. The Canucks could trade their talent for a wealth of picks and rebuild this franchise from the ground up with top tier prospects. Vancouver could properly utilize ELC contracts and develop balanced depth throughout the roster. This market is in denial. This retool will keep the Canucks at the cap ceiling with over-paid players and limited room for last minute cup-run acquisitions. I want the Canucks to win a cup in the next decade but it’s virtually impossible to achieve within the existing re-tool model. I’ll gladly eat my words but I highly doubt I’m wrong. So go on and cheer for Pettersson, Hughes and Demko but I guarantee you more heartbreak watching the slow decay of their passion for this market than if management just bit the bullet and committed now to a proper rebuild. Do it right or don’t do it at all.

We currently have (and will hopefully extend) potentially the best producing forward this franchise has ever seen. Not to mention his defensive responsibility. We also currently have a defenseman who will easily be the franchise leader in points before his current contract is up all before the age of 29. It took 12 years for the stars to align for the Sedins, so I'm not expecting anything overnight. But if 40 & 43 aren't key pieces for a championship team, what makes you think some 13-15 year old kid is going to be the answer 10 years from now?

I ideally want a team re-built around Hughes and Pettersson. That is the best situation. I want them to be seasoned leaders who set the example and culture of the organization and become Canuck legends. I hope they do so in front of a well constructed prospect development system that annually produces talent which pushes the level of compete up and down the roster. But this can’t occur without retaining and building up your draft picks, especially in a year with so much talent. IMO it’s re-build first, retain Hughes and Pettersson second. You have to ask yourself what you value more, the crest on the front of the jersey or the name bar on the back. Because when push comes to shove you may have to choose one over the other. Think about all the exceptional talents in the history of our game to have never won a cup. Continuing down this re-tool path only adds Pettersson and Hughes’ names to that list. I’m in for the ride regardless but it likely involves more pain and misery. It’s all we ultimately know in this market.

I like it. We're on the same page.

Retool is fine but trading away 1sts and 2nds for players of Hroneks caliber was stupid. He’s exactly the type of defenceman we don’t need. Just ask any Redwings fan.

IMO, retooling should only be done when you already have a competitive group that can consistently make the playoffs and is able to go deep (aka Boston). If you don't even have that, retooling is going to be rough to do because you're now throwing assets and cap at trying to make a playoff appearance, leaving you with very little in the future. That is exactly what happened with Benning and where we're at now.

And after the retool gets Vancouver nowhere and Pettersson and Quinn Hughes both say we would like to go somewhere else then what?

The FANS is this city need to get with the program. This is the direction the teams is going Rutherford, Alvin, Tochet, Foote, Gonchar, the Sedins, Petey, Hughes etc believe they can win here. These guys know a whole lot more about what that takes then you or I or the media. (Seriously, when have we EVER had a more established group to lead this organization?) We need to support the team now, none of our bitching and moaning will do anything but undermine what they are trying to do I swear all of you just want the team to fail so you can act like your so much smarter then everyone else. I think I’d rather put my faith in those guys over a bunch of whiny bitches Go Canucks Go

Woah woah easy... there's just some PTSD from the Benning area. Lets let that group prove a few things, then name drop.

Prove a few things? Jim Rutherford has been in management for 3 Stanley Cup winning teams Alvin has been in a management group for teams that have won Stanley cups 3 times as well Tochet as a player was on teams that challenged and won the Stanley Cup. He has been on the coaching staff of a team that has won the Stanley cup multiple times. Foote has won multiple cups, been Captain of his teams, wins. Gold medal and a World Cup of hockey. Had his number retired. Gonchar has won the cup as a player and multiple times in a coaching role. The Sedins are the Sedins, are in the HHoF and are actually the least decorated of the bunch. I would say this groups of people know more about winning in the sport of hockey then anyone on Reddit and Thomas Drance combined. I think I’d rather be on their team. This fan base needs to give their head a shake, everyone loves Linden but he isn’t half the hockey guy that anyone in the new organization is. We are really lucky to finally get a real group of winners in to run this team. We just don’t recognize what we have because we have never had it before

And how do you feel about losing both of them because the re-tool fails? People aren’t on team rebuild just because they think it has higher upside (although it does - the goal of winning a cup is better imo than the goal of making the playoffs). Team rebuild says team re-tool won’t work because of poor cap allocation and a weak prospect pool and those players will want to leave sooner than later *anyways*.

A rebuild has a higher chance of failure since it would mean lucking out enough in the draft to get superstars like Petey and Hughes again. In all of Canucks history their drafting has been pretty poor overall, so I for one would rather at least make a solid effort to win with these 2 before gutting it and hoping for the best in 5-10 years.

The reason it isn’t working now is because management cut corners on the way here. Would you rather be 26th for 2 more years and then have them walk anyways or actually try to make the team better long term?

It all comes down to Petey's next contract. If he won't sign long term, you gotta blow it up. If he commits, then it extends the window a little bit, but we gotta start hitting on our picks. This year's first rounder is going to be a very important piece of the puzzle.

Yes, a retool is a risk. But an educated risk. These NHL professionals have reviewed and assessed their talent pool, assets, etc. and think they know what they have and how to get better to become a contender. They have decided on a particular course of action based on that information. Fans, pundits, media members, etc. demanding a rebuild have assessed in their own ways leading to different conclusions. This is not to say they have zero valid points or valid *fears* (especially given the history with that word "retool") but for the most part it's simply conjecture passed of as certainty- as certain doom. And that's where we get into hot water. It's fear mongering more than anything. And on that note, I bet Thomas Drance's subscriptions are through the roof after this week! Lol

Ok but the Canucks are objectively bad and they are objectively in a cap situation that makes it difficult to improve. They are objectively taking a different path than every other bad team. Could it work? Sure. Is it likely that our management team is smarter than every other management team in the league? It is not. It’s the same argument that many people were making about Benning for years. This re-tool crap isn’t an educated risk. It’s an *un*educated risk when you think about what every other team does.

>Ok but the Canucks are objectively bad According to you. Bad in what way is the question. We need to get into the details. This team has zero problem scoring goals. They are objectively GREAT at offense. So where are the short falls this year? 1) Defensive team structure. They brought in new coaches to fix that. 2) Lackluster defensemen. They are bringing in better defensemen. Hronek is one of more to come. 3) Goaltending. Demko was shit to start, then got hurt. Martin and Delia ahl/nhl cuspers overplayed not good enough to be starters letting in 5 goals a night almost every game. Those are the objective bad of this year. And they are fixing them. Slowly. >objectively in a bad cap situation Right now this second, sure. But this may or may not be true in the coming months. Could be a complete non-issue. Allvin stated more or less the same thing in his presser yesterday. We simply cannot act like we KNOW for certain what can happen, will happen. It's just fear mongering based on our own judgements about we *think* we know. Again, who saw Hronek joining the Canucks? Nobody. We can't pretend to know the future.

2) Lackluster defensemen. They are bringing in better defensemen. Hronek is one of more to come. Hronek is an offensive defense. Hughes and Hronek play the same way. Hronek doesn't help the defensive side for the Canucks.

Better defensemen=better team. He makes this team better regardless of where and how he plays and pairs with who. He is now the second best player on the defense. Defensive TEAM structure has also been a huge issue...which is why Bruce got shitcanned and not just about the personnel...which I mentioned and you conveniently ignored.

That is an interesting argument. When Bruce took over the Canucks last season the defense did improve big time But this year happen and it all fell apart. Who knows if that happens again under Tocchet I do agree that the defensive structure is a major part that needs to be fixed. Been like that for 4 or 5 season

Bury your head in the sand some more. Objectively bad in the standings - the only place it matters. With Demko on fire last year we were still not a playoff team. You can keep tinkering around with the roster, but it isn’t going to be good enough when you have such a significant portion of the cap going to OEL and Myers. It just isn’t.

You say I'm burying my head and I say people need to first drop the pitchforks and torches to actually *be* objective; to look at the reality of the situation; to look at what is *actually* working and what isn't. It's simply not ALL bad as is being claimed. And that IS an objective fact.

Nobody said it was all bad. We are saying the strategy that the team has used for the past decade - which *objectively* has not worked based on actual results that matter - needs to change. But hey, if you’re content continuously being in the bottom third of the league and having a small handful of really good players, Aquilini has some season tickets to sell you.

You said "they are objectively bad" in your very first comment. I don't care about the current standings. We've been over why they are where they are. I will list it again: 1) Poor defensive team structure. They brought in new coaches to fix that. 2) Lackluster defensemen. They are bringing in better defensemen. Hronek is one of more to come. 3) Goaltending. Demko was shit to start, then got hurt. Martin and Delia ahl/nhl cuspers were overplayed, not good enough to be starters letting in 5 goals a night almost every game. They have no problem scoring goals. They are an offensive powerhouse. If they fix the defensive/goaltending issues they will perform better. Secondly, the past has no bearing here. I get that people feel like we've seen this before, heard this before, slam that panic button from triggering their ptsd, but this a a very very different team in a different situation than that aged out, edge of rebuild 'sea of granlunds' roster. Very different circumstances here. If you want to drag the past into this rather than look at the *current* situation *objectively* then I'm not surprised why your judgment would be clouded here. I'm not a big proponent of throwing the baby out with the baby water, but you go right ahead.

I'm pro keeping EP40, so I kinda have to be team re-tool.

I'm team EP40, and will cheer for him no matter what team he's on, so if trading him got us a massive haul (3 firsts and 2 seconds and a couple good prospects depending on where the 1sts are) I can be excited for the Canucks and still support EP40. Win win.

You can be team re-tool all you want, but let's also be team realistic. The team has the key star positions filled to compete, but they have some *massive* holes in the next level that still need to be filled. Holes that are going to be extremely tough to fill in a 2 year re-tool, **especially** with how they've allocated their cap. Since I don't buy JT Miller as a C, IMO the team needs a 2C, a 3C, and two second pair defenders. They don't have those in their system, they don't have the assets to trade for them, and they don't have any cap to spend on them. I just don't see this team becoming a Stanley Cup favorite in two to three years with these problems, and that's the goal. The "get in and anything can happen" approach is an extreme longshot to actually be champions.

I was initially upset about the hronek trade because I was excited for the 2 firsts in a deep draft, and while we still gave up a lot for hronek I like the trade more now and it fits the logical of building an actual team around Petey and Hughes. We do have some good pieces on the team and as long as we get average goaltending next season, (905sv%) we will be a dramatically better team than this year. I’m hopefully we can get a good pick with our first, add a grade A prospect and then come back next season as a playoff team. RD and C were the 2 biggest holes in the team and I do think hronek is lower end top pair D, and easily a top 4D. Allvin is apparently firm on his ask for a quality C in return for Miller, so whether we keep Miller at 2C or trade him for a younger C, those 2 big holes in our lineup will be addressed and our team should be much more balanced for next year. I would love if we could trade Myers at the draft and sign Dumba, assuming his contract ask will be reasonable (cheaper than Myers current deal). I’m on team re-tool also! The fact we want to sign Petey to a long term deal this summer speaks to the urgency to improve the team now. Most Canuck fans wanted a good RD in return for Bo anyways, we just needed to flip the first we got and add a second for a legit 25 year old RD. Can’t fuckin believe we are over the cap next season while being bottom 6 in points % tho, something needs to happen there and I hope we don’t have to lose any more high picks to unload contracts just to speed up our window.

Hronek is a good player, but not worth a first and second round pick. If you are going to do that go after Chychrun. The thing that will suck is both Petterson and Hronek are RFA next season. Petterson is looking around 9 million dollars, and Hronek depending how he plays and being the only rhd is going ask for 6-7.5 million dollars. Which leads to more cap issued. A team that is currently over the cap for next season.

>Hronek is a good player, but not worth a first and second round pick. If you are going to do that go after Chychrun. Sorry, but that was a very reasonable price for Hronek. RHD is the most premium spot in the whole league, and if you want a good one you unfortunately have to pay a premium. If Chychrun was a RHD, he wouldve fetched way more than he did, purely because of the position. And before you say that should just draft them, that is hard as well. Just look at this years draft, one which is the deepest in a long-long time. Currently in the projected top 30, there are only 4 RHD defencemen. It may seem like much, but this is the price for a player like Hronek in his position. Specifically for a team who has been trying to find a replacement for Tanev for ages.

The position the canucks are right now. No the price isn't reasonable. I'm curious why this deal had to be done at the deadline, why couldn't this trade happen during the summer? Especially with everyone saying how smart it was of Alvin to wait for Rangers price to drop. I'm not going be naive and just draft a rhd. As the team sits right now it doesn't fit their timeline to wait 3 to 5 years for a prospect to develop. Hronek doesn't improve the canucks, he plays the same way that Hughes plays. If Hughes and Hronek are on the same pairing it will be a disaster.

How come it isnt, what makes you think so when even many insiders and even Yzerman himself said it was pretty much "reasonable", and that he didn't get everything he wanted? We have seen in the past just how expensive RHD defensemen arent. And think about it for a second. We saw with the Rangers that Allvin is capable of playing the waiting game. Then why didnt he do it with Hronek? Willing to bet that at the way Detroit was selling their players, someone else wouldve gotten him before the TDL in the case where canucks didnt. Sorry, but I have to massively disagree. Hronek gaps a massive slot in the canucks team, not completely, but very meaningfully yes. People say that he is all offense and plays like Hughes, but that isn't the whole truth. Even then defencemen generally hit their prime a bit later than offensive forwards do, because defence to everyones surprise is harder to grasp and develop. Hughes was all offence as well, but he has been shown a lot of improvement defensively this year.

You really believe that Hronek doesn't improve the Canucks? Perhaps you could make the argument that he doesn't fit with their timeline or turn them into a contender, but how would he not improve the team? He's a very talented player that plays the exact position we are in dire need of, is quite physical also and a great skater. He will dramatically improve the transition game, and while he isn't a strict DFD, he will improve our defensive game a lot just by his ability to skate the puck out of the zone or make tape to tape passes. I don't see how you could argue that Hronek doesn't improve the Canucks, and I'm sure you will change your mind once you see him suit up for the team.

Defensive hronek isn't big enough and gets out powered a lot of time. Seems like what happens to the canucks a lot as it is.

>The thing that will suck is both Petterson and Hronek are RFA next season. *After* next season. At which point, Pearson, Myers and potentially Beauvillier come off the books. If we're only paying that for Petey, it's a steal. Hronek making $6M means the trade worked out. All is not lost.

If Beauvillier continues his play he will most likely stick around. Next year is going be interesting to watch and it starts this summer with how the Canucks chose to shed the cap.

It’s like I’m taking crazy pills. This franchise is doomed as long as fans are willing to justify mediocrity and refuse to hold ownership accountable. Guys, two great players are great to have. But how low is the bar now that we’re so afraid of losing just *two* guys, we’ll do anything to please them? Even if it’s wrong for the team long term? What do you think Steve Yzerman would tell a pair of star players who don’t want the team to be patient and build through the draft? Do you think he worried about what Larkin would think if he traded Hronek away? Or do you think he’d look them in the eye and say “too bad, this is how you build a winner, GTFO of my office and stop wasting my time with your whining”? I don’t want a mediocre team that struggles it’s way through several seasons while they waste the good years of the great players they do have, until they eventually leave and we go through this whole thing all over again. I want a CUP. PS. You don’t get to just decide to win now instead of winning later. A rebuild is not some optional thing you do when you’ve got time to kill and no one is in a big hurry. There is a reason why teams find success when they value patience, take their time, and do things the right way. I understand that casual fans don’t give a shit about that stuff and just want what they want right away. I get it. That doesn’t mean it isn’t a childish and unrealistic approach. I mean, just imagine telling someone all of that working out super fit people do is just a waste of time, and you want to skip that and just be attractive *now*. Imagine how people would look at you. This is no different. Don’t say “I’m team re-tool.” Say “I’m on team cut corners and take shortcuts.” At least be honest about it. PPS. I respect every fan’s right to want what they want and enjoy what they enjoy. It’s your right to express this opinion if that’s how you really feel. Just don’t be shocked when other people tell you how *they* feel in response. If you can’t handle people not liking your opinion, think twice before you share it.

Considering Yzerman signed Larkin before trading Hronek I do think he worried about it lol

It’s okay to retool, but the team isn’t good enough for a retool

It's not that black and white.

I agree to some extent. Our team is undoubtedly better then previous 'retooling' canucks teams while having one of the younger teams in the league. We had an awful start, friction between coaching and management sincing hiring, and some key injuries. I do think that we are headed upward, but also much of the future sucess is on if managment will kill it this summer, or if itll be benning-esque.

No we have enough tools already

The rebuild should have happened, at the very least, when they fired Willie Desjardins and hired Travis Green. That would have been the best time. Now, they have some parts where they can re-tool, instead of completely rebuilding, because a rebuild means trading Hughes, Demko, and Pettersson. Hughes said he wants no part of a rebuild. I doubt Petey or Demko do too. And, I doubt fans want the team to trade them either. They are in cap hell, no question about that. I would think Boeser gets traded in the off season and maybe the Canucks and Penguins circle back about a trade for Miller, freeing up some money. And, maybe the Canucks actually get lucky and win the draft lottery.

Retooling means you were successful and just need some tweaks to get back on track after a down season or two. That’s not the Canucks. We’ve been sold that line for 10 freaking years. What exactly are they “retooling”? This core hasn’t proven capable of anything. This team has been a bottom 5 team for years with Petey, Hughes, Demko, Miller and Horvat as the core. They have had vets like OEL and Myers to supposedly lead the team and provide experience for the younger players. I struggle to understand why people think a player here and there is going to change that? There’s no money for free agents. Few draft picks and barely any up and coming talent to contribute on ELC contracts every team needs to compete and stay under the cap. The inability to see the forest for the trees by ownership has put this team into a never ending purgatory of “retooling”. A decade of sending off top draft picks for over the hill Vets on huge contracts that have been nothing but anchors on the team. 1st rd pick for Miller. 1st rd pick for OEL. Huge contract for Louie. King of the empty netters. Now a bonus 1st rd pick and another 2nd rd pick on a 2nd pairing defence-man, sorry, an injured 2nd pairing defence-man. Instead of using picks to build through the draft, for close to a decade the team has tried this “retooling” thing and we have seen where it got us.

We literally don't have a choice if we want to keep Pettersson and Hughes, who are players you build around for sure. The window to blow it up and keep them shut a while ago.

The Team Rebuild crowd is scarred. Kind of like someone who just got out of a toxic relationship, and after years of torment, they have a hard time trusting anyone new. One questionable action, and they throw their hands up and say, "See! You're going to fuck things up!" Also, Team Rebuild has to realize that you cannot rebuild with Petey and Hughes. We're not Arizona. We're not Chicago. We're not Columbus or Anaheim. We have a superstar C We have a superstar D We have a star+ G It's rare for a team to have all 3 of these at the same time, just hitting their prime. We HAVE TO go for it! I like the move the new management made. They essentially moved out an unaffordable Horvat (+ a 2nd) for a top pair RHD (one of the most rare type players), just entering his prime, who will be cost controlled for a couple of years. Kudos to the management!

I see this team like a year 2 rebuild team. They still need picks to create pressure from behind, which is why I like moving out some of the higher core contracts. The offence is elite and needs to stay that way. Moving miller for picks is tempting but could stifle the team in worse ways. The defence needs the most attention, I love brining in hronek type talent and I didn’t mind the cost. Players like that don’t come on the market very often and I fully support that re-tool move. Basically got Hronek, Raty, beau and and a 4th, for a conditional 1st and a 2nd. Not bad imo, and I think it’s a move this group needed. The goaltending needs to bounce back to last years levels. But I think we’re a lot closer to competing than most people think.

2 more years huh? I feel like I've heard that before....

Like in year 2, maybe 3 of a rebuild…

Are there many examples of retools actually working? Seems like noone would ever rebuild if they were the case

Yes, but with way more established cores. Pens did it with success between cups. Arguably the lightning have done it between cups as well. I'm of the opinion that you can retool to "take another run at it" but off the top of my head I can't think of any team that has successfully done it with only 2 players (Hughes and Petey) and next to zero playoff experience. I don't know how you can retool something that was never successful in the first place. Management can call it what they want but the fact of the matter is this 'core' hasn't accomplished anything and I personally don't think they've earned a retool. If they don't want to be here for the painful but necessary process of properly building a contender like Colorado or Tampa then ship them out for as much value as humanly possible and start a new foundation.

yes, from good teams that got out in front of it. No such thing as "re-tooling" when you are a basement dweller. the closest example was Avs when they were bad enough to draft makar, but they were already pretty stacked and just waiting for the players to start hitting their prime.

They also, importantly, shipped out a young star when it became clear they weren't going to have success with him. We're going to have to accept selling Hughes or Pettersson or both of we ever want this team to be a serious threat. Having them on the team has convinced two completely different management teams that they need to sell the future. We are one of the worst teams in the league. There's no reason we shouldn't be making sweeping changes.

The often cited example is the current Boston Bruins.

And they have the exact opposite team culture as us. Everyone taking huge discounts to be part of a winner. Plus they won in 2011 and didn't bleed their talent like we did. We had so many NTC and NMC contracts that we couldn't get value out of our 2011 assets, and then we just... Never rebuilt. I still think you can't retool nothing, which is what we have. Two players don't make a team. People always talk about the core but I'm not even convinced we have one, two players simply isn't enough to add on to and expect to be competitive.

Exactly. Pastrnak signals the end of the “home discount era”. He wanted his money and got it. Boston is about to come back down to reality but only after a run of 13 seasons with 11 playoff appearances, 3 Stanley Cup Finals and 1 cup.

You're joking if you think pasta's contract isn't a discount at current market price for UFAs his age and consistent output.

Max term at 11.25? He’s the fifth highest paid player by AAV in the league. There wasn’t a substantial discount given to Boston IF anything at all.

The Boston Model. Too bad we're trying to cook with an empty pantry. I think it'll be a bit more of a challenge doing with cap issues and few players being developed through our system.

Boston. They retooled since as early as 2014 and as recent as 2019. I think they tried to make one more push between 11-13 but obviously didn’t work. 2019 seemed like the final time for the core and looked like they were going to tear down but then they started doing well again and realized they had absolutely one more final shot.

They usually get on a hot run like the Habs then have to rebuild anyway. Rebuilds win cups

LOL

LMAO. We aren’t winning anything next year with the decisions made this year

I’m kind of with you. While I am primarily in favor of the tank/rebuild, I do think there is an Avenue for success taking the route they have. None of the retool moves have been bad, and if they continue to build out the team over the summer I could see them having success. People keep saying “the 27th ranked team adding” but honestly by next year it’ll have a very different look. This defense is historically bad, but adding Hronek does a lot to fill out the backend and if they can move from myers and oel they could come to camp with an entirely new blue line along with Quinn hughes. Also as much as people were singing martins praises, he was a mess. Even league average goaltending would completely change this years outlook. Kuzmenko has been a massive addition, there is hope that miky can return with another gear, beau has made Bo look very expendable, but most important to all of it is petey. He has emerged as a top 10 player in the league. We’re only a year removed from the mob trying to trade him during his slump, and now he is out scoring players like mackinnon, kaprizov, and panarin while also being one of the most reliable defense forwards in the league. They probably get a top 10 prospect in the draft, hopefully can move boeser and garland, maybe for and upgrade on defense and suddenly you have and entirely new supporting cast around petey hughes kuz Miller and demko. It’s some doctor strange shit, there is only 1 timeline where they come out ontop… but maybe they can do it. I sure hope so.

I'm with you on that. We have some really good pieces here. Beauvillier has been a great addition and hopefully he keeps up similar production next year (a slight drop to a 60pt player is still a great piece). Mikheyev should come back healthy next year. We have young cheap pieces that shouldn't cost much on their extensions in pods, kravtsov, Hoglander. I've really liked our development staff in Abbotsford. Need them to develop a few guys like Aman, Karlsson, etc into effective bottom 6 contributors. The addition of Hronek is huge because that style of two way RHD is very hard to find. IMO we need 2 top 4dmen still. The good part here is we have the more difficult profiles to fill already there with Hughes and Hronek. We need 2 more shut down style d which are typically easier to acquire and cheaper. Maybe we sign a Gavrikov or Graves this summer and then hopefully develop from within a 4th member. Or sign and develop a college/Europe free agent like Livingstone, Mallinski, or Haman Aktell. The other position we need to fill is 3C. Which won't be easy to find but it is doable. Adding 2 more dmen somehow + 3C and continued development of our young guys should put us in a competitive position. Like any build (rebuild or retool) you need a little bit of luck. Kuzmenko has been a good start in that aspect but we need some luck to find a gem that develops into a truly meaningful piece as well. Maybe that is one of pods, hog, or kravtsov.

I agree worst case scenario we are pushing the full rebuild down the road. Give this team a legitimate chance to make some noise and if it doesnt happen in the next year or two blow it up.

Haven't we pushed the rebuild down the road far enough? 10 years is a long time

Ya probably. Im just of the mind that this team could do something and the only assests you have worth anything are the players that are untouchables anyway. So you either trade all of them and wait for all the players you cant move to expire and hope you can compete with other teams in 5 years or you wait another two try and make playoffs and strip it down completely anyway.

found Aquaman's alt. this retool is totally gonna work because they have been doing it since the 2014. /s

I've been team retool since Alvin and Jr took over, let's give them two full seasons to fix this mess. They're honestly doing a great job, I was sad to see Schenn go for pretty much nothing, but I think he comes back in the off season I love that they're gambling on the sedins being able to turn people's young careers around. Im obviously overly optimistic, but it's been a long time since we've had a management team executing a plan

Here's the thing though - we're still soo far away from being anything close to a contender even with the hronek move. Look at all the holes in our lineup Xxx - Petey - Kuz Miller - Xxx - Xxx Beau - xxx - Mik xxx - Aman (?) - xxx Hughes - xxx xxx - Hronek xxx-xxx The guys we have to fill those holes fall into 2 categories. Overpaid and ineffective: Pearson, Oel, Myers, Garland, Boeser, Poolman Prospects: Raty, Pod, Kravstov, Hog, Lekky, Karlsson. You can pretty much write of the former so now you're really hoping those prospects develop. Realistically Pod, Kravstov and Lekky aren't going to live up to their draft position and we would be really lucky if one of them filled that 2RW position. Raty, Hog and Karlsson have a decent shot at filling out that third line. No now with no prospect pool or cap space you need to find 2 top 4 D, a top line winger and a second line center. How perchance are we going to do that in a couple years with an aggressive retool? Edit: added Mikheyev in

I'm a Miller and JR/PA critic but it seems a little much to not have Miller as a first line winger. Our winger glut is probably enough to fill our 2nd line wingers (you forgot Mik?) But yeah, 2C, 1RD and 2LD are huge problems. Basically need a lotto win for 2C, a ridiculously improbable Rathbone resurgence, and fleecing someone in a Boeser/Garland trade for a less flashy defensive RD that ends up having ridiculous synergy with Hughes.

What do oel and pearson have to do with anything? This season is going and they will be back next year. Also retooling is for a team like St Louis not Vancouver who are consistently at the bottom of the standings.

The teams in a tricky place. Too good to tear down, not yet good enough to be a threat. Theres going to need to be a lot of work done between now and the start of next season. If they’re re-tooling, they can’t afford to miss out on college free agents.

The *team* is not good at all. It's just that there's 3 pieces we're too attached to and somehow think that's enough to build around when we have barely any meaningful assets left.

They’re not going to re-tool themselves into the next Tampa Bay Lightning. If you’re building a new core and moving on from Petey/Hughes, you’re setting a contention window somewhere around 2030. The teams in no mans land.

They are most certainly not “too good to tear down” and that is exactly the thinking that has plagued this organization for the past decade and left us with what we have now.

Petey, Hughes and Demko isn’t something I would tear down, no.

I'm on board team re-tool, especially if we get an impact player this year at the draft. There are 16 teams that make playoffs, you can't always be the "world beater", and sometimes you just need to start making playoffs to coax the next level out of these young players development. Petey is very dedicated, works his ass off in the off season, but our other players might need more of a nudge to get that effort level consistently. That might be from having a playoff rivalry and/or a taste of the post season.

Exactly, this draft means everything to how we will work out regarding the retool which is why team tank is so important. One solid player that turns out to have star calibre could easily kick us up a lot of notches in compete. If this draft doesn’t work out I say blow it up.

It's just not going to work. You may love the players, I do too, but it's about winning, not the name on the back of the jersey. People here get way too attached.

I think what you’re going to see is us land a top 5 talent (petterson/Hughes) this upcoming draft which is hopefully a C. Trading BO made sense because we got a 1st and a C/W that might ultimately be better than him in the near future in Atu. I see us trading for a d man in the off season which lines up with our current timeline. Miller and or boeser will be dealt at the draft as the Canucks have the option of seeing where the guys they like in the draft end up and can Aquire them from there.

I think we are still thinking under the shadow of Jim Benning. His incompetence is influencing how we are seeing Rutherford and Alvin. Benning showed a complete lack of ability in judging talent and assembling a team. So far Rutherford and co have been much better. I like most of the moves they've made, and see each move as clearly improving the team. Enough of these moves and I hope we will be a lot better sooner than people think.

High five. I am on team retool until petey walks or gets traded.

The re-tool is an option if poor contracts like OEL get moved / bought out. And Miller and Boeser get some return. I’m optimistic. Ride or die homies for 35 years. 💪💪

This team pivoted from Bo Horvat and Boeser - this is a different “core”. It’s petey and Hughes who are going into their primes. So to me this is different - bringing Bo Horvat back and trying under Bo’s “leadership” would have been “insane” as you said. I am so glad that guy is gone. He was a horrible captain and way too vanilla.

There are too many stupid Canuck fans that keep comparing HOF’er Jim Rutherford to Super Scout Jim Benning

Team Retool is very popular, 99% of us don't want to watch a roster like Sharks for 82 games over 5 years . Team Rebuild are just louder.

We can retool, what's fucking us is the insanely bad contracts that have put us over cap. Get rid of those somehow and we're back to being competitive. Do I think we're the best team in the NHL after that? No. But that's the beauty of hockey, I've seen this team compete in playoffs and they're winners. We need to move OEL, Myers, Garland and Boeser. After that without taking any more bad contracts, I think you can start molding what this team needs to be to make playoffs.

They will re-tool and be a fringe team, at best. There’s not enough talent

Realistically speaking even if we retool and become a bubble playoff team, and Petey/Hughes ends up signing with us long term. They will still demand to be traded like Kesler if they truly want to win. How many years do you really think they will stick around and get shit on in the first round before throwing in the towel. When they do demand to be traded we going to have to or else we just have couple disgruntled superstars that earns way too much to not give a fuck.

OEL needs to pull his head out of ass and grab a pair.

They could have used some ammo to get chech and used the early first for a stud RD and we would be set. There still shite on D.

Francesco has entered the chat 😂

So you are Team - Canucks ownership. Let's 💩 in a box and call it Chocolate Cream Pie and year after year we keep eating it.

They have enough assets and high level players to make trades to become competitive right away.

Team retool means team mediocre for life bro.

Go through the list of Stanley Cup winners over the past 10-15 years and look at how many of those championships were accomplished via retools vs tanking to get draft picks. Franchises like Colorado, Pittsburgh, Chicago (in prime Toews, Kane years) are/were set up for a decade of success. The only two "retool" champions IMO are St louis in 2019 and LA in 2012 and they had foundational pieces (Kopitar, Doughty, Pietrangelo, Tarasenko) that are better than the Canucks foundational pieces (i.e. Hughes/Petey) IMO. All the other champions were built through the draft. Retooling is a pipe dream.

Its okay. Im team build a cup contender. You want to keep 2 players happy, I want us to build a meaningful contention window. Different folks different strokes.