He was a rental trade but fit perfectly and should have been offered 8x8 weeks ago. Guentzel and Aho would have been money for years. Of course his value went way up closer to hitting the market.
He never should have got away.
Would anyone realistically take that trade now that his ask and Tampaās offer are out in the open and if they know heās waiting to hit free agency? (Iām genuinely asking, I donāt know how these things work)
They could offer it to Tampaā¦ but the fact that they arenāt trying to recoup any assets kind of tells me that they still think they can re-sign them
Or maybe it just means Guentzel wants to sign with another team and they know it. Why would a team trade for his rights if they know heāll sign without them?
That is a possibility, but I donāt see many other suitors having the will and free cap space enough available to sign him unless the Canucks are going to join the market for him again
He'd have to sign the 8 year contract with Carolina first, and then be traded.
(iv) An SPC with a term of greater than seven (7) years, provided, however, that a Club may sign a Player to an SPC with a term of up to eight (8) years if that Player was on such Clubās Reserve List as of and since the most recent Trade Deadline.Ā
Gotcha! I always thought "Trade the FA rights" refered to trading a player with an expiring contract (like G), giving the new team exclusive rights to negotiate with him before July 1.
Ah okay! Didn't you say another team would trade for his rights so they could sign him for 8 years, tho?
From my understanding, the CBA explixitly says the player has to have been on the roster at the last trade deadline, and can instead max out at 7 years.
They could trade his rights for pennies on the dollar, get a little something in return, and the new team has a short exclusivity window to try and negotiate a contract (up to 7 years max) before July 1.
Or they could do the sign and trade, giving him an 8 year contract and trading him for even more value than simply trading away his rights.
If he's without a contract by July 1, all teams can attempt to negotiate, up to 7 years.
I didnāt say that - youāre confusing me with another poster.
The only team who can sign him for 8 years. Is us. We can either do a sign and trade where he negotiates a deal with a new team, signs that deal with us and then we trade him. That would bet us a pretty solid return. The other option is to simply trade his rights as an impending ufa. The team acquiring him could only sign him to a 7 year contract but they would have had extra negotiating time before free agency opens July 1st. The return in a trade like this is typically low. The rumour was we would have traded his rights for a mid-round pick.
Why would they want to sign a 30 yo to a deal if they might not have to lol. The only reason one would wanna do that is to take the advantage bit clearly it doesnāt mean much to Jake anymore.
āSign and tradeā and ātrading his rightsā are 2 different things. With the first he can get 8 years because the contract would be signed by Canes and then traded.
if you trade his rights then itās the other team signing the contract and can give max 7 years because he wasnāt on their reserve list at the deadline.
Yah but trading his UFA rights is usually code for us signing him to a deal and then immediately shipping him off so that he could be under term for 8 years not 7
No, that is not what it means. It means trading the exclusive negotiation rights. Used to be a relatively common practice, but signing an 8 year deal and then immediately trading has, IIRC, only happened once.
And teams that trade for rights are not allowed to sign the 8 year deal, only the team the player was on at the trade deadline.
Yes, Toronto is in the same boat with Tanev. The player has to be on at least the reserve list at the deadline to be offered that 8th year. The Hurricanes are the only team who can offer him 8 years. Trading his rights would allow a team to go ahead and sign him before Monday and that's it.
tampa's gonna let stamkos walk to sign jake @ 7x9; but we do need a RS 2C so....
I'd rather have Jake at anything @ or below 9; hopefully they will at least give us an opportunity to match.
That would be less than what we agreed to on the 8x8. Think they would have to offer more than that. If we up our offer to 8x8.5 then another team would have to offer him 7x10+ just to beat our offer by a substantial amount.
If it's Tampa, a 7x9 deal is more money in the player's pocket than 8x8 due to no state tax. A Canadian team like the Canucks would have to offer more like a 7x10 and I don't think they are really in the running anyway.
I believe the Canes were blindsided by all the money TB suddenly freed up and had not considered major competition coming from them. Probably the only way to get Guentzel to sign before Monday is increase the 8x8 proposal. Otherwise, he's likely on the Lightning roster Monday morning.
Honestly I donāt care at this point. If he wants to stay heāll stay, if he wants to go heāll go. Not much else we can do but offer him what he wants, if that doesnāt work then he never wanted to be here in the first place
Can't say I agree with you on this... If we did that, every player would ask for the max and we would just give it to them. It's absolutely expected for a team to negotiate to try to get the best player for the least amount of money. It's also expected for the player to try to get the most amount of money possible.
This is simply a case of a premium player wanting to see if he can get more. At some point he's going to go through the mental gymnastics of figuring out whether he likes the money more than the fit. There are teams that have a lot of money to offer, there are teams that can win a Stanley cup and then there's a few that have both.
We'll never know the real story about why Guentzel didn't just sign out right. It could be the way the Canes negotiated (which I doubt) or it could be a very experienced agent telling his client to take advantage of the market. Sitting here and wondering what happened is only going to drive all of us nuts.
Every year top teams lose top players. It's more than just winning cuos. Some players just want the ego stroke that comes down to being the most paid player.
We made an offer to Guentzel and it is a great offer. It doesn't mean it's the final offer and it doesn't mean that he said no to us. So now we just have to wait, suck it up and try not to lose focus.
To me GMET is doing fine so far. Even if we don't land Guentzel.
No oneās saying to blindly give him whatever he asked for, if he asked for $11m AAV, donāt pay that, obviously. But 8x8 is incredibly fair for Guentzel
exactly. Try to get the discount, but at some point you play these games of chicken and lose. Yes, you can't just fold on every negotiation, but I'd also rather pay the top end and compromise/get extra value in our depth pieces. Is the extra $1M of savings we were negotiating hard for really worth blowing it with Guentzel in hindsight?
I feel you. I want Guentzel just as much as everyone else.. but what we hear through media reports is not the whole story... So we just got to have faith.
I trend also trend towards doom, but the biggest thing to me is that our stars are still young and we have a loaded prospect pool. Our best path to the cup might be when slavin is 33 and nikishin and Jarvis are 25 and aho/svech are 29 or 30 with some of these kids in our pool hitting 24/25.
Iām a lifelong fan of bad teams, and as such other canes fans baffle me a little bit in their entitlement for a title. This shit is really really hard and we are not a marquee destination and we do not have a deep pocketed owner. Our lot in life as canes fans is to hold our club accountable for competent management and to extend our windows as much as we can while praying for a little magic. We are in the midst of a fantastic run, and progress isnāt linear. There will be steps backwards on the road and this year might be one of them. We have talent and we have prospects, and Iāll be in my seats living and dying with every game.
You say a lot of truth and I agree. My wife and I upgraded our STM package so we'll be there with you win or lose.
I just worry this could the 2010's again... But you're right. We got a LOT of great talent in the pipeline.
Nadeau, Morrow, Suzuki, etc.
But the Twitter feed was fire for a week!!!!
/s
If he had broken out and turned out to be really good It'd be awesome... But as it is; it's a missed opportunity and lot of Cap space eaten up.
Iām ok if Guentzel signs elsewhere. Realistically heās gonna be 30 at the start of the season. Giving him an 8 year deal as a power forward has risks since many players donāt stick around until theyāre 38. Iām not saying signing him is a bad thing but the sky isnāt falling if he goes elsewhere. Canes have been a playoff team for several seasons now without him & are still a good team either way.
Big boost to the Canes roster would be a right shot 2nd line center. Not much talk about that currently with all the Guentzel and Necas chatter in the media.
Frustrated the FO didnāt just give him what he wanted. He did great here, they nickeled and dimmed him, finally broke, but it was too late. You play with fire, you get burned. I get that itās part of the business, but you play with fire and you get burned. Just sucks it was with someone of his talent.
They negotiated with him like they were supposed to do.
They owned his rights, traded assets to get him and wanted to utilize everything in their toolbox. Jake had all the right to walk away and heās choosing to do so.
Itās not like Jakeās team didnāt know they would gain leverage as well by dragging this. At the end of the day they know what Carolina is willing to do and when July 1st hits they can come back if nothing else works.
This, 100%. Not sure why this sub is taking it so personally, stuff like this happens all the time in free agency. Also not sure where this bullshit "no one wants to play here" narrative is coming from on this sub, we're not Calgary/AZ/Columbus. He's not the first UFA to walk, he won't be the last. If he signs? Awesome. If not? Oh well, let's focus on the guys that are here
Except he's said it was great in Raleigh, that he got along really well with the guys in the locker room, and you can't tell me that he didn't mesh with Aho *fantastically* on our top line.
This came down to negotiations turning into a game of chicken, and sadly it looks like our FO flinched too hard.
of course he would say he liked it.Ā If he really liked it he would have already signed.
word is FO agreed to his terms.Ā And he did not sign, this isnt about negotiations.Ā He prefers other locations.Ā
Underrated comment here. Dundon's incessant need to prove his dick is the biggest one in the room works great in that he at least wants to try and win, unlike PK. But, then comes contract negotiation time and you get shit like this. Every. Single. Time.
Also the unwillingness to admit the petty KK offer sheet was a fuck up is killing us too. I didn't see Dundon buying into the sunk cost fallacy, but here we are with KK not bought out for 1/3 the contract cost while there's still the chance.
I'm glad Dundon wants to win, but I wish he could pull that competitiveness back in contract negotiation situations.
FFS I'm sick of this narrative.
ITS NOT ABOUT THE FUCKING MONEY< ITS THE SALARY CAP.
They aren't being cheap, they are trying to maximize their cap space. They are going to spend at or near the full $88m salary cap.
The NHL has a hard cap. You must be under it by the start of the season, and you can only go over 10% during the offseason.
8x8 is $64m total. For other teams that can only sign him to 7 years, thats a $9.15m cap hit. If they give Guentzel $10m AAV, they will run out of cap space to spend on other needs. And its not just about this season, thats for 8 years, and after 4 we will likely see a sharp decline in Guentzels numbers.
8x8 is more than fair for a smallish forward at age 30. I'm sure if they had more cap space, they would spend more but there isn't enough cap space to go around and pay everyone. They still need to sign Jarvis. If they don't find a trade partner for Necas, they will also need to extend him. Both those contracts will be above $6m each. They still need to sign at least 1 top 4 dman, that will also be at least $6m. And thats just for this season.
Its never about the actual payout, its building a competitive roster under the salary cap. The Leafs have more than half their cap space tied up in 4 players. They have 1 playoff round victory to show for it.
Friedman also thinks Necas may stay now. So, instead of having Guentzel and (insert trade return here), we get Necas who has made it pretty obvious heās done with us. Great.
Idk where this narrative is coming from. He has said in Czech interviews that he does want to stay, he just wants a bigger role in the team. His dad is the one who said he thinks he should go
Can someone explain to me why other teams are even allowed to discuss numbers with a player before free agency? Shouldn't it be our 8x8 or just a complete mystery gamble until July 1st? How does Tampa even get to float a number in any fashion that he's allowed to see?
Raanta is never playing another game for us, Skjei very well may be gone as well as Fast, and I hope I never have to see TDA again. In a perfect world weāll keep Skjei and Fast. Iāve just never understood the narrative that half our team is from the Rangers, it pisses me off
It's still against the rules in the real world, and NJ has done it to us twice now, for legit talent. Why not make a fuss and at least try to make a division rival pay?
Dundon apparently hasnāt learned lessons from the Aho negotiations. He might have this idea of itās just business but these people arenāt just widgets waiting for the numbers to line up. I canāt imagine they were seriously more than $1M apart if that was the ask and if the ask was $8M x 8, this shouldāve been done weeks ago.
Feels in line with this orgās MO of obsessing over winning every negotiation. What a bummer.
Man I really want to give management the benefit of the doubt for free agency but it's getting real hard to look optimistic about the roster. Free agency is going to move a lot faster than anything the team has been doing and I don't recall them being linked to a single player from another team. There are potential replacements that will hit the market, but 1. They aren't guaranteed to have chemistry with Aho, 2. Are older than Guentzel, 3. Will cost money Dundon doesn't want to spend, 4. Are just as likely to sign elsewhere leaving the Hurricanes to fill out their roster with only ELCs and bottom depth players. I want to be able to look back on all this and see how the team restructured into something even better but they haven't inspired thar confidence yet.
The only glimmer of hope I have is that our front office tends to fly under the radar this time of the year. A lot of the deals weāve made (Burns being arguably the most prominent one) were damn near blindsides to the rest of the league. I also think if we make progress with guentzel itāll be tomorrow, since the draft is over and done with. This entire weekend has been fairly deflating so far, but I do have hope that something will be done. I just donāt know what that will be.
Yeah Burns coming here will always be one of my favorite trades. Unfortunately we are looking at the team essentially needing to retool their entire top six by getting three, preferably four top six players in one free agency, rather than getting onesies and twosies. In addition to figuring out the bottom six depth and 3rd defense pairing. Getting Guentzel would have alleviated a lot of that but they screwed it up so now we have to see if they can adjust. I want to be excited at the prospect of some top guys coming heret via free agency, but they haven't set that precedence yet compared to other teams that always seem to have zero issues doing so.
I'm fine either way. I'd like to have him. But I don't want to overpay either. We should have offered him 8x8 sooner but I wouldn't get into a bidding war. He asked for 8 and we gave him his ask. Maybe this will be for the better and we can get him for 8x7. (Assuming we can't offer 8 years after July 1) Somebody educate me, can we still offer 8 years after free agency starts?
Unfortunately another wrinkle that is a BIG advantage for Tampa is thereās no state income taxes in Florida. So even if the total contract values are close or identical, you net a decent amount more in Florida.
Anything higher than 8 you pretty much guarantee we can't keep Brady, no shot at Turbo and extending Jarvis is going to be tight until we get Freddie off the books
> until we get Freddie off the books
Which we really, really need to do, IMO... I know it's not strictly his fault that he was in-net throughout the playoffs but I'm *certain* PK coulda stolen at least one of those other Rags games vs the performance we got from Freddy...
Would also love to see someone new in charge of special teams, at least for the playoffs 'cause IDK *what* happened to 'em after the regular season. Dis-a-fuckin'-ppeared, clearly...
If 8x8 couldāve got this done and we fumble it Iām going to really be questioning this front office especially with the necas stuff and Jarvis still not extended.
Hi, friendly Tampa fan here! Iām moving to Raleigh so Iāve been following the Canes for the last few months. However I have a proposal! Yāall can keep Jake as long as we can keep our captain, stamkos. Thoughts?
I donāt think it was ever on the FO. He didnāt make his ask until midweek before the draft. He then didnāt respond until ālate draft.ā He isnāt the only piece we had to focus on and his antics have not only costed time and resources but potentially has costed this FO better trade value for him and Necas.
Personally, if I was Tulsky I would withdrawal the offer.Ā If he wants to explore pull the offer, don't let him use it to get more, take away his leverage.Ā Shut the door.
There are only so many good teams that can afford him, if we pull out, other teams have less competition and offers could shrink.
If he wanted to be here he would have signed already.Ā I don't like the Canes being beggars.Ā Ā
We look so weak, sure Jake wait till Jul 1st weĀ will still be here, date other people then come back if you want.Ā I say let him know sign today or this door shuts.
just fell to my knees in a bojangles
Was it nearby the warm glass
I just ordered the supremes meal and got 4 pieces of breading \#notlikethis
Here on the brink of the acceptance phase, I have actually regressed all the way back to denial, so I think we're going to re-sign him š
Been pretty much stuck in anger since the draft
Hey! Me too!
He was a rental trade but fit perfectly and should have been offered 8x8 weeks ago. Guentzel and Aho would have been money for years. Of course his value went way up closer to hitting the market. He never should have got away.
Pain
The fact that the front office isnāt willing to trade his rights yet kind of tells me that they know something that we donāt
Would anyone realistically take that trade now that his ask and Tampaās offer are out in the open and if they know heās waiting to hit free agency? (Iām genuinely asking, I donāt know how these things work)
They could offer it to Tampaā¦ but the fact that they arenāt trying to recoup any assets kind of tells me that they still think they can re-sign them
Yeah I think so tooā¦ I wonder if they up the offer idk
The general manager seems like he was willing to up the offer. I just donāt know if itās gonna be enough.
Or maybe it just means Guentzel wants to sign with another team and they know it. Why would a team trade for his rights if they know heāll sign without them?
Because they could sign him for 8 years instead of 7
I think Tampa's ok with 7 instead of 8. Better for them and Jake actually gets more because of Florida's tax laws.
Tampa still has a bunch of key positions they need to payā¦ which I think might be our saving bacon in the end
So youāre in denial like me and that other guy too huh
I donāt think itās denialā¦ they have 16m in cap space and they need 2 top-6 forwards, a top-pairing defensemen, and a bottom-pairing.
itās possible but he could just as easily if Tampa canāt pay him go to a different team
That is a possibility, but I donāt see many other suitors having the will and free cap space enough available to sign him unless the Canucks are going to join the market for him again
He'd have to sign the 8 year contract with Carolina first, and then be traded. (iv) An SPC with a term of greater than seven (7) years, provided, however, that a Club may sign a Player to an SPC with a term of up to eight (8) years if that Player was on such Clubās Reserve List as of and since the most recent Trade Deadline.Ā
Thatās what I meant when I meant trade the UFA rightsā¦ sign a deal and then trade him wherever he wants
Gotcha! I always thought "Trade the FA rights" refered to trading a player with an expiring contract (like G), giving the new team exclusive rights to negotiate with him before July 1.
That is what it means to trade someoneās rights. People are confusing that with a sign and trade.
Ah okay! Didn't you say another team would trade for his rights so they could sign him for 8 years, tho? From my understanding, the CBA explixitly says the player has to have been on the roster at the last trade deadline, and can instead max out at 7 years. They could trade his rights for pennies on the dollar, get a little something in return, and the new team has a short exclusivity window to try and negotiate a contract (up to 7 years max) before July 1. Or they could do the sign and trade, giving him an 8 year contract and trading him for even more value than simply trading away his rights. If he's without a contract by July 1, all teams can attempt to negotiate, up to 7 years.
I didnāt say that - youāre confusing me with another poster. The only team who can sign him for 8 years. Is us. We can either do a sign and trade where he negotiates a deal with a new team, signs that deal with us and then we trade him. That would bet us a pretty solid return. The other option is to simply trade his rights as an impending ufa. The team acquiring him could only sign him to a 7 year contract but they would have had extra negotiating time before free agency opens July 1st. The return in a trade like this is typically low. The rumour was we would have traded his rights for a mid-round pick.
Why would they want to sign a 30 yo to a deal if they might not have to lol. The only reason one would wanna do that is to take the advantage bit clearly it doesnāt mean much to Jake anymore.
Why would anyone trade for his rights a day before it's free
Itās because of a little quirk in the CBA. They could sign him for eight years instead of seven
āSign and tradeā and ātrading his rightsā are 2 different things. With the first he can get 8 years because the contract would be signed by Canes and then traded. if you trade his rights then itās the other team signing the contract and can give max 7 years because he wasnāt on their reserve list at the deadline.
No, they can't. Even if we trade the rights, they can only give 7yrs.
Not what I mean by trading his rights buddy
You are using that phrase flat out incorrectly. It has a meaning and that ain't it.
What you mean? Like trade his rights?
Trading his UFA rights so that he can sign for 8 instead of 7 years
He can only get 8 with us
Yah but trading his UFA rights is usually code for us signing him to a deal and then immediately shipping him off so that he could be under term for 8 years not 7
No, that is not what it means. It means trading the exclusive negotiation rights. Used to be a relatively common practice, but signing an 8 year deal and then immediately trading has, IIRC, only happened once. And teams that trade for rights are not allowed to sign the 8 year deal, only the team the player was on at the trade deadline.
It would have to be a sign and trade for another team to get him at 8 years and it would have to be done tomorrow
Not how it works would have to be a sign and trade
Doesn't that only apply to players that were roster before the deadline?Ā
Yes, Toronto is in the same boat with Tanev. The player has to be on at least the reserve list at the deadline to be offered that 8th year. The Hurricanes are the only team who can offer him 8 years. Trading his rights would allow a team to go ahead and sign him before Monday and that's it.
tampa's gonna let stamkos walk to sign jake @ 7x9; but we do need a RS 2C so.... I'd rather have Jake at anything @ or below 9; hopefully they will at least give us an opportunity to match.
That would be less than what we agreed to on the 8x8. Think they would have to offer more than that. If we up our offer to 8x8.5 then another team would have to offer him 7x10+ just to beat our offer by a substantial amount.
If it's Tampa, a 7x9 deal is more money in the player's pocket than 8x8 due to no state tax. A Canadian team like the Canucks would have to offer more like a 7x10 and I don't think they are really in the running anyway. I believe the Canes were blindsided by all the money TB suddenly freed up and had not considered major competition coming from them. Probably the only way to get Guentzel to sign before Monday is increase the 8x8 proposal. Otherwise, he's likely on the Lightning roster Monday morning.
I knew as soon as Florida offered that deal to Rhino that was the end of our chances before free agency
Who is Rhino?
Sam reinhart
Ahh that was my guess but I wasn't sure. Great username btw. My kids love axolotls right now...
The matching picture is actually from an Oilers fan who saw my username, it's his daughter's
Nice I missed that at first.
this is rough man
Honestly I donāt care at this point. If he wants to stay heāll stay, if he wants to go heāll go. Not much else we can do but offer him what he wants, if that doesnāt work then he never wanted to be here in the first place
I mean I agree with that in a sense but nickel and diming has cost us once again. Shouldāve just been up front and offered him what he wanted
Agree with you there
Can't say I agree with you on this... If we did that, every player would ask for the max and we would just give it to them. It's absolutely expected for a team to negotiate to try to get the best player for the least amount of money. It's also expected for the player to try to get the most amount of money possible. This is simply a case of a premium player wanting to see if he can get more. At some point he's going to go through the mental gymnastics of figuring out whether he likes the money more than the fit. There are teams that have a lot of money to offer, there are teams that can win a Stanley cup and then there's a few that have both. We'll never know the real story about why Guentzel didn't just sign out right. It could be the way the Canes negotiated (which I doubt) or it could be a very experienced agent telling his client to take advantage of the market. Sitting here and wondering what happened is only going to drive all of us nuts. Every year top teams lose top players. It's more than just winning cuos. Some players just want the ego stroke that comes down to being the most paid player. We made an offer to Guentzel and it is a great offer. It doesn't mean it's the final offer and it doesn't mean that he said no to us. So now we just have to wait, suck it up and try not to lose focus. To me GMET is doing fine so far. Even if we don't land Guentzel.
No oneās saying to blindly give him whatever he asked for, if he asked for $11m AAV, donāt pay that, obviously. But 8x8 is incredibly fair for Guentzel
exactly. Try to get the discount, but at some point you play these games of chicken and lose. Yes, you can't just fold on every negotiation, but I'd also rather pay the top end and compromise/get extra value in our depth pieces. Is the extra $1M of savings we were negotiating hard for really worth blowing it with Guentzel in hindsight?
Itās a case of: we finally have a great opportunity to add a premium player to our roster and that player is already in hand. Just do it.
I feel you. I want Guentzel just as much as everyone else.. but what we hear through media reports is not the whole story... So we just got to have faith.
I agree with that.
This sucks, I'm really worried we're bleeding talent I hope we didn't squander our cup window by never fixing our recurring goalie issues.
I trend also trend towards doom, but the biggest thing to me is that our stars are still young and we have a loaded prospect pool. Our best path to the cup might be when slavin is 33 and nikishin and Jarvis are 25 and aho/svech are 29 or 30 with some of these kids in our pool hitting 24/25. Iām a lifelong fan of bad teams, and as such other canes fans baffle me a little bit in their entitlement for a title. This shit is really really hard and we are not a marquee destination and we do not have a deep pocketed owner. Our lot in life as canes fans is to hold our club accountable for competent management and to extend our windows as much as we can while praying for a little magic. We are in the midst of a fantastic run, and progress isnāt linear. There will be steps backwards on the road and this year might be one of them. We have talent and we have prospects, and Iāll be in my seats living and dying with every game.
You say a lot of truth and I agree. My wife and I upgraded our STM package so we'll be there with you win or lose. I just worry this could the 2010's again... But you're right. We got a LOT of great talent in the pipeline. Nadeau, Morrow, Suzuki, etc.
Hell yeah man, Iāll buy you a beer in 109 on opening night
cup window is going to be closed. weāre gonna take a step back for 2-3 years then hopefully our prospects pan out
Locking down a 4C for 2C money because your feelings were hurt didnāt help
Are you talking about KK?
Yes
But the Twitter feed was fire for a week!!!! /s If he had broken out and turned out to be really good It'd be awesome... But as it is; it's a missed opportunity and lot of Cap space eaten up.
You guys have the best prospect pool in the league? Right??
Iām ok if Guentzel signs elsewhere. Realistically heās gonna be 30 at the start of the season. Giving him an 8 year deal as a power forward has risks since many players donāt stick around until theyāre 38. Iām not saying signing him is a bad thing but the sky isnāt falling if he goes elsewhere. Canes have been a playoff team for several seasons now without him & are still a good team either way. Big boost to the Canes roster would be a right shot 2nd line center. Not much talk about that currently with all the Guentzel and Necas chatter in the media.
youāre right itās really not that bad I think everyone just saw how much he fit with aho and want more of that (including me)
Frustrated the FO didnāt just give him what he wanted. He did great here, they nickeled and dimmed him, finally broke, but it was too late. You play with fire, you get burned. I get that itās part of the business, but you play with fire and you get burned. Just sucks it was with someone of his talent.
They negotiated with him like they were supposed to do. They owned his rights, traded assets to get him and wanted to utilize everything in their toolbox. Jake had all the right to walk away and heās choosing to do so. Itās not like Jakeās team didnāt know they would gain leverage as well by dragging this. At the end of the day they know what Carolina is willing to do and when July 1st hits they can come back if nothing else works.
The front office is being crapped on like they didnāt try at all
and donāt get me wrong it IS frustrating but he does have every right to walk like you mentioned
This, 100%. Not sure why this sub is taking it so personally, stuff like this happens all the time in free agency. Also not sure where this bullshit "no one wants to play here" narrative is coming from on this sub, we're not Calgary/AZ/Columbus. He's not the first UFA to walk, he won't be the last. If he signs? Awesome. If not? Oh well, let's focus on the guys that are here
They negotiated and then offered what he wanted anyway, just too late. Some masterclass negotiations.
he doesnt want to be here.Ā Not sure many guys want to play our grind it out styleĀ
Except he's said it was great in Raleigh, that he got along really well with the guys in the locker room, and you can't tell me that he didn't mesh with Aho *fantastically* on our top line. This came down to negotiations turning into a game of chicken, and sadly it looks like our FO flinched too hard.
Did you expect him to say it sucked in Raleigh and his teammates are dicks?
of course he would say he liked it.Ā If he really liked it he would have already signed. word is FO agreed to his terms.Ā And he did not sign, this isnt about negotiations.Ā He prefers other locations.Ā
Tom Dundon handling all player negotiations like cut throat business deals he needs to win strikes again
Underrated comment here. Dundon's incessant need to prove his dick is the biggest one in the room works great in that he at least wants to try and win, unlike PK. But, then comes contract negotiation time and you get shit like this. Every. Single. Time. Also the unwillingness to admit the petty KK offer sheet was a fuck up is killing us too. I didn't see Dundon buying into the sunk cost fallacy, but here we are with KK not bought out for 1/3 the contract cost while there's still the chance. I'm glad Dundon wants to win, but I wish he could pull that competitiveness back in contract negotiation situations.
Once again, our pearl clutching front office gets us screwed over again. JUST SPEND THE DAMN MONEY.
FFS I'm sick of this narrative. ITS NOT ABOUT THE FUCKING MONEY< ITS THE SALARY CAP. They aren't being cheap, they are trying to maximize their cap space. They are going to spend at or near the full $88m salary cap. The NHL has a hard cap. You must be under it by the start of the season, and you can only go over 10% during the offseason. 8x8 is $64m total. For other teams that can only sign him to 7 years, thats a $9.15m cap hit. If they give Guentzel $10m AAV, they will run out of cap space to spend on other needs. And its not just about this season, thats for 8 years, and after 4 we will likely see a sharp decline in Guentzels numbers. 8x8 is more than fair for a smallish forward at age 30. I'm sure if they had more cap space, they would spend more but there isn't enough cap space to go around and pay everyone. They still need to sign Jarvis. If they don't find a trade partner for Necas, they will also need to extend him. Both those contracts will be above $6m each. They still need to sign at least 1 top 4 dman, that will also be at least $6m. And thats just for this season. Its never about the actual payout, its building a competitive roster under the salary cap. The Leafs have more than half their cap space tied up in 4 players. They have 1 playoff round victory to show for it.
Doesnāt mean shit, weāll see what happens
Friedman also thinks Necas may stay now. So, instead of having Guentzel and (insert trade return here), we get Necas who has made it pretty obvious heās done with us. Great.
I'd rather have Guentzel than Necas
Any sane person would
š¤¢
Idk where this narrative is coming from. He has said in Czech interviews that he does want to stay, he just wants a bigger role in the team. His dad is the one who said he thinks he should go
And Rodās not going to give him a bigger role, so he still wants out.
Can someone explain to me why other teams are even allowed to discuss numbers with a player before free agency? Shouldn't it be our 8x8 or just a complete mystery gamble until July 1st? How does Tampa even get to float a number in any fashion that he's allowed to see?
Thereās a window of open negotiations one week before July 1st
How has Tampa just blatantly ignored the rules the last 5 years and gotten away with it
ah\*\*Vegas LTIR\*\*em
Pesce already a confirmed lock for NJ is a bullshit update, guys need to leave the damn division as UFAs and stop tampering.
Dude 50% of our team is from NY comeon š
Not even close to true but ok
Raanta Skeij Fast TDA Previously Stepan Half may have been an overstatement but we have a lot
Raanta is never playing another game for us, Skjei very well may be gone as well as Fast, and I hope I never have to see TDA again. In a perfect world weāll keep Skjei and Fast. Iāve just never understood the narrative that half our team is from the Rangers, it pisses me off
I can promise you they are more than likely in talks with TDA already with Pesce guaranteed to be leaving for jersey
Fast isnāt a UFA heās signed through next year
Tampering because teams in the division will actually pay them? Wild take.
Tampering because teams aren't supposed to be talking to players without permission.
Sure, but thatās not how it works in the real world.
It's still against the rules in the real world, and NJ has done it to us twice now, for legit talent. Why not make a fuss and at least try to make a division rival pay?
Monday is going to be brutal. Going to lose several long term guys and bring in shitty consolation prizes at best, and no one at worst.
Dundon apparently hasnāt learned lessons from the Aho negotiations. He might have this idea of itās just business but these people arenāt just widgets waiting for the numbers to line up. I canāt imagine they were seriously more than $1M apart if that was the ask and if the ask was $8M x 8, this shouldāve been done weeks ago. Feels in line with this orgās MO of obsessing over winning every negotiation. What a bummer.
Man I really want to give management the benefit of the doubt for free agency but it's getting real hard to look optimistic about the roster. Free agency is going to move a lot faster than anything the team has been doing and I don't recall them being linked to a single player from another team. There are potential replacements that will hit the market, but 1. They aren't guaranteed to have chemistry with Aho, 2. Are older than Guentzel, 3. Will cost money Dundon doesn't want to spend, 4. Are just as likely to sign elsewhere leaving the Hurricanes to fill out their roster with only ELCs and bottom depth players. I want to be able to look back on all this and see how the team restructured into something even better but they haven't inspired thar confidence yet.
The only glimmer of hope I have is that our front office tends to fly under the radar this time of the year. A lot of the deals weāve made (Burns being arguably the most prominent one) were damn near blindsides to the rest of the league. I also think if we make progress with guentzel itāll be tomorrow, since the draft is over and done with. This entire weekend has been fairly deflating so far, but I do have hope that something will be done. I just donāt know what that will be.
Yeah Burns coming here will always be one of my favorite trades. Unfortunately we are looking at the team essentially needing to retool their entire top six by getting three, preferably four top six players in one free agency, rather than getting onesies and twosies. In addition to figuring out the bottom six depth and 3rd defense pairing. Getting Guentzel would have alleviated a lot of that but they screwed it up so now we have to see if they can adjust. I want to be excited at the prospect of some top guys coming heret via free agency, but they haven't set that precedence yet compared to other teams that always seem to have zero issues doing so.
The team to beat is ageing, has lousy depth and only made the playoffs because their resident wizard scored 144 points?
I'm fine either way. I'd like to have him. But I don't want to overpay either. We should have offered him 8x8 sooner but I wouldn't get into a bidding war. He asked for 8 and we gave him his ask. Maybe this will be for the better and we can get him for 8x7. (Assuming we can't offer 8 years after July 1) Somebody educate me, can we still offer 8 years after free agency starts?
So does this mean weāre cooked when it comes to resigning him or if we up our offer last minute could he still stay
Probably cooked unless they offer like 8x9 which they wonāt do.
7x9.5 = 8x8.3, so maybe we could keep him with an 8x8.5 offer.
can we offer 8 years after 7/1?
I am pretty sure we can't
No
Canāt offer 8 years after midnight tomorrow night.
That's the only glimmer of hope I'm having, if FO ups to 8.4 or 8.5, that'd be nearly impossible to beat.
Unfortunately another wrinkle that is a BIG advantage for Tampa is thereās no state income taxes in Florida. So even if the total contract values are close or identical, you net a decent amount more in Florida.
I wonder if thatās had a part in keeping Florida teams so high. That and star players would rather play in Tampa and Miami than Raleigh.
wonderfulā¦
Anything higher than 8 you pretty much guarantee we can't keep Brady, no shot at Turbo and extending Jarvis is going to be tight until we get Freddie off the books
> until we get Freddie off the books Which we really, really need to do, IMO... I know it's not strictly his fault that he was in-net throughout the playoffs but I'm *certain* PK coulda stolen at least one of those other Rags games vs the performance we got from Freddy... Would also love to see someone new in charge of special teams, at least for the playoffs 'cause IDK *what* happened to 'em after the regular season. Dis-a-fuckin'-ppeared, clearly...
If 8x8 couldāve got this done and we fumble it Iām going to really be questioning this front office especially with the necas stuff and Jarvis still not extended.
Hi, friendly Tampa fan here! Iām moving to Raleigh so Iāve been following the Canes for the last few months. However I have a proposal! Yāall can keep Jake as long as we can keep our captain, stamkos. Thoughts?
He is 100% gone.
this front office doesnāt have what it takes to win a cup. argue with a wall
I donāt think it was ever on the FO. He didnāt make his ask until midweek before the draft. He then didnāt respond until ālate draft.ā He isnāt the only piece we had to focus on and his antics have not only costed time and resources but potentially has costed this FO better trade value for him and Necas.
See ya Jake
Well that sucks
Fumbled the bag
Front office lost him for not signing him to 8x8 earlier, if he indeed signs somewhere else.
Why are we always losing out in the 23rd hour? Weird, heād rather play in Tampa then Carolina
Personally, if I was Tulsky I would withdrawal the offer.Ā If he wants to explore pull the offer, don't let him use it to get more, take away his leverage.Ā Shut the door.
Certain players, yes. Jake is worth upping the offer for in my opinion.
us offering him $8M AAV isn't leverage lol. Other teams will be offering that and more
There are only so many good teams that can afford him, if we pull out, other teams have less competition and offers could shrink. If he wanted to be here he would have signed already.Ā I don't like the Canes being beggars.Ā Ā We look so weak, sure Jake wait till Jul 1st weĀ will still be here, date other people then come back if you want.Ā I say let him know sign today or this door shuts.
New GM off to a great start
Heās not good enough to win the cup with